October 26, 2015 • 49 mins
Some argue that all feminists are witches by default and mean it as a compliment. Cristen and Caroline explore the not-so-spooky relationship between feminism, witchcraft and modern-day Wicca.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how Supports
dot com. Well, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and
I'm Christian and we are not contrary to whatever the
title of this episode maybe talking about the history of
(00:25):
witchcraft and WICCA specifically. Instead, we wanted to focus more
on how both men and women throughout our modern history
have used these two things Wika and Witchcraft, for sort
of their own purposes, shaped the history of these things
to fit narratives that were interesting and convenient for them
(00:48):
at the time. Well, I mean, and wick is still
super popular today and still has lots of feminists underpinnings
as well. Absolutely WICKA and Witchcraft, although some people would
say that those are interchangeable. Um, I saw it explained
as like the way that Catholicism, Mr. Christianity WIKA is
(01:08):
to Witchcraft. So WIKA has much longer ceremonies, Yeah, more
smells and bells. As a family friends says, spells and bells.
That does that a lot like Witchcraft. I know, all
of that boiled, boiled, toil and trouble or whatever it is.
I have Newts so exhausted. It's like about feminist eyes
(01:30):
of newt today on the podcast. We're gonna cook up
some potions, cast some spells hopefully on your listening ears
love it um. Actual witches are listening and being like,
we are being so poorly represented right now because it's
not all about spell casting. Obviously it's not, because there's
no such thing. Yeah, yeah, we should disspel that, Caroline,
(01:53):
See what I did there. We're also going to dispel
some other notions Kristen, namely at WICCA and witchcraft. Is
this ancient connection to our matriarchal, lady loving, solely peaceful,
utopian past and that it was fostered completely by women.
(02:15):
Oh man, so many spoilers just got alerted, So many spoilers.
But first, let's break down kind of what we're talking
about today. We're we're talking about two main ideas Wicca,
like we've said, but also this idea of the Goddess
movement and Goddess feminism. Goddess blessed that whole thing that
some people put on bumper stickers on their cars exactly.
(02:37):
So the Goddess movement is the worshiping of the divine feminine,
the archetypal mother, and they really pushed the idea that
women need to understand their own value. And this comes
into when you look at feminist Wicca in particular. So
there's Wicca, which is a neopagan religion. Practitioners sometimes call
themselves witches. They worship a duo of a and God
(03:00):
and a moon goddess, although of course there are variations,
but that feminist Wicca and the goddess movement are super
closely aligned because feminist Wicca is a goddess religion, so
maybe they don't hold that horned God in the same
type of standing that they do the goddess. But it
also incorporates a lot of things like green and eco
politics and folk medicine, and is also super concerned with
(03:22):
women empowering themselves. And there are all sorts of offshoots
including Dianic Wicca, Native American Wicca, Greek and Egyptian lesbian separatists,
wise woman healers. I mean, they are all different forms,
kind of like feminism that it can take different interpretations
that people can have. And I guess you would also
(03:43):
say that they would practice through their Wicca. And I
always thought that Wicca and witchcraft were these ancient practices,
like a lot of people have said, I had no
idea that its origins were so much more modern than
all of that. And it really is back to the
nineteenth century, particularly uh Masonic ritual and occult obsessions with
(04:06):
both goddesses and matriarchies that were pretty much like in
vogue during that time and mostly though bended about by
dudes who were grateful not to be in those matriarchies.
So the matriarchies were discussed as an example of look
how far we've come. Yeah, basically when when all those
(04:27):
moon goddesses ruled everything. Um, Yeah, when we look at
the nineteenth century, you have the rise of secret societies,
occult practices, spiritualism, and rejection of orthodox religion. And I mean,
I love this period of time because some people are
really kind of losing their minds. Yeah, this is when
(04:47):
we see a lot of mediums. You know, Kristen and
I did that episode way back in the day, were
mediums the first feminists. And it's so funny to me
to think about it that, yes, there was a movement
away from organiz as traditional religion, but much like Fox
Molder Kristen, people still want to believe it's such human
nature that even if you reject Christianity, in general, or Judaism,
(05:12):
or or just a subset of either of those religions,
or any religion. You still have this drive to believe
in something bigger than yourself. And I think that's such
a human trait. And in this case, it was all
about the occult and these mystical forces that weren't really Christian,
weren't really Jewish, they were something else that sort of
borrowed from these new traditions that were arising in the
(05:35):
nineteenth century. Well, and it seems like a lot of
them were really enamored with the power of nature, the
magic in nature. So during the Romantic period, which is
in the first half of the nineteenth century, you have
these mostly male German and French thinkers who are really
interested in natural forces, particularly those aligned with women, because
(05:58):
you know, as we've often talked about, you know, nature
is considered very feminine and maternal. Think about fertility and
all that all that jazz, all that jazz. Well you
also have to uh take into consideration that around this
time people are starting to sort of project a lot
of meaning onto the classic gods and goddesses that have
(06:21):
been displaced by Christianity. So all of a sudden you
have a lot of people, both artists, writers, poets, who
are starting to associate in their works of art, whether
that is writing or like painting or sculpture. Um, they're
starting to associate these gods and goddesses with the natural world,
with natural mystical forces, rather than how back in ye
(06:45):
old and Greek times people tended to look at these
gods and goddesses as sort of petty, bigger holy versions
of ourselves, like they all had fights, and we're cheating
on each other and causing wars and strife and basically
men ling in human endeavors. So the way that the
Romantics were looking at him was more like, well, yeah, maybe,
(07:06):
but they're they're mystical, and they're they're influencing nature, they're
part of nature. And so this is when we also
get Mother Earth and things like fairies, which were typically
tiny ladies, popping up as popular deities and figures in literature.
And there's a big milestone in eighteen forty nine when
(07:28):
German classicist Edward Gerrard becomes the first to assert that
all ancient goddesses derived from a single mother goddess. And
this is really Caroline has made me think a lot
about the title of our podcast, stuff Mom Never Told You.
Should we update that to like stuff single Mother Goddess
(07:48):
Never told you? Although the answer would be like nothing,
because she's the single mother Goddess, of course she probably
knows all, so it just would. But that doesn't mean
she would tell us everything. She's also afraid to have
the birds and bees and periods conversation. The single mother
God has never prepared us for monarchy. Thanks a lot,
Thanks a lot. But it's important to keep in mind
(08:10):
that this narrative is developing despite the fact that ancient
religions were polytheistic. There's really not much evidence that these societies.
These ancient societies worshiped a single archetypal goddess. Yes, they
had goddesses, but this man driven narrative is developing in
(08:30):
the nineteenth century that like, oh, there was just one
pure earthy mother goddess who was worshiped by all of
these societies. Do you think there was sort of mixing
things up with like the cults that would arise around
specific gods and goddesses to like the cult of Diana
or the cult of Dionysus. Men, it could be. I mean,
(08:51):
there were there were discussions about things like the cult
of of Diana. People can uh not Princess Diana listeners
by the goddess Diana. Yeah, I mean there were people
who were convinced that there were still Dianic cults going
on in the nineteenth century, that they were just like
hidden away in pockets, that we had yet to find
(09:11):
pocket change their tiny cults, pocket pocket sized tiny cults. Um.
And in eighteen sixty one you've got Swiss jurist and
writer Johann yakobakafin nice pronunciation that people would disagree with you. Ah,
he positive that our earliest societies were matriarchies. That sounds great,
(09:33):
I love it. Let's stop there, feminists, and there are
a number of feminist thinkers who talk a lot in
terms of the ancient matriarch. This is this is I mean,
this is why we're giving you this this nineteenth century
history fair listeners to to explain where this idea came from. However,
it wasn't a positive but coffin, I don't know if
(09:54):
that's really h could be more of a cough and
says on the cop and bo copon real popping up
here and the mic he and others saw patriarchy as
a victory of rationality over those feminine, those traditional feminine
(10:15):
traits of instinct, nurturing, and closeness to nature. So basically like, yes,
these ancient societies were matriarchies. I'm sure of it, because
look at how powerful and amazing we are now that
we've done away with all of that. Oh that's interesting.
It's kind of a way to elevate and celebrate. I
didn't need to make that rhyme, these patriarchal structures. And
(10:36):
aren't we so glad we have our separate spheres and
women aren't allowed to go outside and get jobs because
their uteruses will float away. Some serious humble bragging happening
then in this early matriarchy philosophy and theories. So by
the early twentieth century it was generally assumed then that,
of course, these ancient Mediterranean religions definitely worshiped a great
(11:02):
mother Earth goddess over everything else, and drawing on nineteenth
century thought, including the patronizing Victorian idea that ancient cultures
didn't realize men played a role in reproduction. Basically, any
archaeological sites and corresponding female figures or representations that were
uncovered were thought as evidence of the goddess worship. So,
(11:26):
for instance, one archaeological expedition that's frequently cited in UH
texts about the development of this goddess worship idea is
uncovering things at Minoan temples from Minoan society and finding
artistic representations of women um and just assuming that they
(11:49):
were either goddesses or that they were participating in a
goddess worship ritual. There was no like, hey, maybe this
could mean something else, or these women could be doing
something else, like who knows, shopping, I don't know, but
it was automatically assumed by a lot of these people
that like, oh, no, there's just women. It just means
that they're worshiping a goddess. They didn't stop to think, like,
maybe something else is going on. Although I gotta say
(12:12):
that I like the idea that in the far future
that if people find the relics of my life, people
would just assume, oh, evidence of the she was goddess,
people just worshiping her, you know, yeah, fingers crossed with
all your YouTube videos with us, with the cash of videos, like,
people will automatically assume, yes, when people find the pile
(12:33):
of my YouTube wigs be like, obviously, goddess, she had
so much hair, she just disappeared. That's all that's left
of her. So where does Wicca come into all of this?
It makes a surprisingly late arrival in the mid twentieth
century thanks to a guy named Jerry. Yeah, amateur anthropologist
(12:56):
Gerald B. Gardner. Uh, he seems like quite a rabble rouser.
This this Jerry, He belonged to an organization. It was
influenced by many nineteenth century occultist groups, which themselves, by
the way, ps were influenced by Freemasons. And in the
nineteen fifties, Gardner, having all of these influences from this
(13:18):
like secret society that he's part of, and having read
all of this stuff by the Romantic authors and poets,
he introduces a religion that he calls Wicca with only
one see, which he claimed, I love this. He didn't
bother to say why, yes, I've developed this system of
beliefs and rituals. No, he figured that that would not
get his religion enough. I don't know, we would say
(13:40):
clicks nowadays in the Internet. It wasn't clickbaitia enough. No,
he claimed that he encountered these religious beliefs and practices
through a friendly coven of witches with ties to the
ancient religion in his organization. But the thing is like
people have people like very surely they're after up to
(14:03):
today have gone back and been like there's there's no
evidence that these people even existed. But the timing of
this is worth mentioning too, because Gardner kind of debuts
WICCA in nineteen fifty three, which was made possible by
the Witchcraft Act finally being repealed in Britain in nineteen
(14:25):
fifty one. So it was all about timing. Otherwise it
would have he would have had to have kept it
more underground because it would be illegal. But like you said, Caroline,
it wasn't like he was unveiling some ancient religion, but
rather what was and and not to disparage Wicka at all,
but in terms of what Gardner was presenting in some
ways it was a hodgepodge of ideas that he collected
(14:48):
from British occultists Elis Sir Crowley, Charles Godfrey Leland, who
was a nineteenth century American amateur folklorist who had claimed
he found a surviving cult of Diana in Italy. This
pocket got us. He founds a pocket gottess is polypocket
gott us. And mainly though he pulled from British egyptologist
(15:10):
Margaret Alice Murray. Yeah, and Murray herself was inspired by
Leyland and in the nineteen twenties developed a framework of
Wickan ritual and belief. She even wrote the introduction to
Gardner's nineteen fifty four books like that's how intimately aligned
they were. And Margaret Alice Murray is a pretty interesting
figure in and of herself, as if you couldn't tell
(15:32):
by the whole, like egyptologist developing a Wiccan religion thing.
She wrote the book The Witch Cult in Western Europe
in nineteen twenty one, And I know we're backing up here,
but it did regain popularity in the forties and fifties
thanks to people like Gardener and the growth of what
we call modern Wicca. And this witch cult book was
(15:53):
notable because what she did was combed through accused witches
confessions and treat them Egyptologists that she was as ethnographic data,
in other words, considering them truthful as opposed to just
being confessions under duress that aren't to be trusted. Yeah,
and so she noticed patterns in some of the testimony,
and she wanted to know why so many of these
(16:16):
accused witches had said similar things, like, for instance, they
had signed a pack with the devil, they had engaged
in ritual orgies, they possessed magical powers. To me, this
just sounds like a college party so far. And she concluded,
based on the testimony of people who witnessed the trials,
that there had not been torture, that these people were
(16:37):
really part of an organized religion or fertility cult that
had survived in Europe since ancient time. So there's this
idea again that modern Wicca and witchcraft was connected to
an ancient lady religion, and all of this helped strengthen
the ideas that witchcraft again was super ancient, stretched back
(16:57):
to the Paleolithic era, and that the Church had tried
to eradicate it. And in fact, she linked Witchcraft's horned
god that we mentioned a while back to ancient cave paintings,
and she said the leader of a coven would wear
horns and was called the devil by early Christians, indicating
that this is how Christianity came up with the horned
(17:19):
depiction of the devil. Yeah, And so basically she argued
that when witches on trial confessed to worshiping the devil,
they weren't saying, yes, I worship our Lord Satan. That
it was like, no, we are a peaceful nature people
who in our coven, you know, swore loyalty to our officer, who,
(17:39):
as part of the ritual, boots on a set of
horns and we danced around a fire or whatever. So basically,
these people are harmless, and witchcraft is ancient and the
Church is evil. She also, by the way, did assert
that fairies were real and that they had a matriarchal culture.
So you throw in some sonic influence and para influence.
(18:00):
Which side note, Caroline, we do need to do an
episode all about tarot cards. Heck yeah, oh my god,
middle school Caroline. Oh, were you into taro rooms and
taro See? I was like, I was like the people
at the beginning that I mentioned, like I have to
believe in something because I'm not into Christianity. Well, I
can't wait for our podcast tarot card reading. But in
addition to those things, you have archaic language, especially in spells, rituals, nudism.
(18:27):
Because Gardner was a nudist and a little bit of
ritual sex, and you have modern American Wicca basically in
the way that Gardner outlined it. But Caroline, you gotta
give an honorable mention to Doreen Edith Dominique Valenti because
without her, Gardner's ideas probably would not have been as
(18:49):
successful as they were. Um. She became one of the
most influential leaders of WICCA and as part of why
the religion is seen as women friendly today. So she
was initiated into WICCA in nine three, so she was
there from the early days and yes, um and she
(19:10):
was responsible for writing much of early Gardenerian religious liturgy,
and in later years she played a big part in
bringing WICCA into wider public attention because she was very prolific.
So she wrote an ABC of Witchcraft, Natural Magic, Witchcraft
for Tomorrow, and the Rebirth of Witchcraft. So I mean
(19:32):
she was really spreading a lot of a lot of
this stuff about fascinating. So she is she would you
argue that she helped attract women to WICCA and witchcraft
during that time, because I mean that was part of
the attraction to it in the first place, was that
there was room for female leadership and an unlike more
(19:53):
traditional religions like Christianity that hasn't always been so kind
to female leadership. You don't say, well, speaking of that
impressive woman, I think you mean which, Caroline, I sure do.
No impressive which, no disrespect because it's us. We should
probably now talk about how we get our modern links
(20:13):
between feminism and the practice of wicked and witchcraft, because
you know, we mentioned that all of those nineteenth century
romantic dudes, we're basically like, oh, thank god, we're We're
past that matriarchy period in our history. It was a
dark period. Once we get into the twentieth century and
we get into first wave and second wave feminism, you
(20:34):
have a lot of women saying, no, it's not that
we're past it. It's that we're just in this like awful,
terrible patriarchal holding period before we get back to our
matriarchal cultures. And so we will talk all about that
after a quick break. So in the first half of show,
(21:00):
we talked a lot about dudes, and people might have
been scratching their heads because the child of this podcast
is feminist witchcraft, and they're probably like, Christine, Caroline, where
are you talking so much about dudes, where's all the
feminism and all this stuff? That's right, Feminism and witchcraft
have been pretty closely aligned, and not just since second
way feminism with the actual literal group that was called
(21:22):
which it has its roots in the suffrage movement, to
with star witchcraft scholar Matilda Joscely Engage, and of course
you might recognize her name from being oh, a feminist leader,
a suffragist, and a historian. She used the narrative of
witchcraft and the witch hunt and witch trials to enlighten
(21:44):
her readers about basically how the church was damaging women.
She wanted to give women a historical context for their oppression,
so she wrote the book Woman, Church and State and
traced the witch hunts and executions who are religious belief
in the quote extreme wickedness of woman who would sell
(22:05):
her soul to the devil to become a witch. And
basically through her book, Gauge was responding to a conservative
movement in society to blur the lines between church and state,
which sounds familiar, and she was determined. This woman was
determined to educate new suffragists in the movement, those who
wanted to use their potential vote to support the more
(22:27):
conservative blurring of the lines changes about the ways in
which the church had harmed women. She was basically like, look,
we have this history of the church burning women at
the stake using the excuse of witchcraft. So let's talk
about witches and let's talk about how the witch hunt
was really a woman hunt. Yeah. She was like, just
subout women for witch and your eyes will be open
(22:52):
to everything. And she argued that witches could be good
and we're simply what she called women of superior non colledge.
And this is a fascinating pop cultural connection between first
wave suffrage, witchcraft, Matilda Joscely Engage, and The Wizard of
Oz because listeners prepared to have your mind blown. Her
(23:15):
concept of good women as witches inspired ultimately Glenda, the
good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West in
The Wizard of Oz. That's right. Yeah, she was the
mother in law of Frank Bomb, who wrote The Wizard
of Oz. She inspired this duo because, according to bombs biographer,
Glinda's power came from within herself. That's an idea that
(23:39):
Gauge inspired and it's also a theme that we will
revisit when we talk about second wave feminism and modern WICCA.
But Gauge put forward the idea, she was one of
the first women to do so, that the idea that
Christianity had always restricted the quote liberty women enjoyed under
the old civil station. So there's that idea again of
(24:01):
that like super free, utopian, peaceful, woman driven society. And
she highlighted the Church's targeting of women in the witch hunts,
and she pointed to their persecution of women of remarkable
intellect and beauty who were thought to be in league
with the devil, which is very similar to how we
even pop culturally portray which is a lot of times today. Um,
(24:26):
but this is really important. She made the claim that
the Church had executed upwards of nine million people, mostly women,
for witchcraft, and this was kind of her hook with
all of it, of like, look at this massacre that
has happened. This is clear cut evidence of how the
Church has pathologically targeted all of these women. So, ladies,
(24:48):
we need to cut ties. You need to get wise
to this history or history rather. Um. But the thing
is modern historians put that number much closer to afforded
to fifty tho. Nonetheless, her argument and that startling number
of nine million, which was not entirely accurate, was effective.
I mean, it was very easy for women of her
(25:11):
day in the nineteenth century to feel connected to the witchy,
especially if they were people like Gauge who wanted suffrage,
who wanted freedom, who wanted to exercise their intellect. Um.
So you have this this first connection between feminism and
(25:31):
witchcraft of basically the essence of it being any woman
who was not interested in the patriarchy. Yeah, it was.
It was giving women that historical foundation of you once
had power, the church did away with it. When we
get the vote, you cannot support the church because look
at this colorful and tragic history that we've had. We
(25:53):
need to get back to a place where women have power.
So it's easy to see why nineteenth century women suffered,
just in particular, would be attracted to that narrative. When
we get into the second wave of feminism, though, it's
less about that witchtory establishing the witchtory, because by then
it's already well established, it's ingrained in a lot of narratives,
(26:16):
and it's more about just smashing that patriarchy, of saying okay, yeah, Matilda,
Jocelyn engage gave us this history. We believe in it.
Let's get back now to a point where things are
driven by women. So in things get about as second
wave as they possibly can. When you have a group
of New York feminists led by Robin Morrigan form which
(26:39):
which stands for Women's International Terrorists, Conspiracy from Hell and
listen people, they had like zero to do with WIKA.
They were not religious in any way, shape or form.
They were more intent on an anarchic sisterhood that urge
women to claim their power. I mean they're essentially like
going around and disrupting things. So there. Their favorite was
(27:03):
to target centers of financial, corporate and academic power with
very theatrical kinds of protests. And they first struck Halloween
on Wall Street, which they referred to as the Imperialist
Phallic Society, And they danced in front of the Federal
Reserve Treasury Bank, led by a high priestess toting a
(27:24):
paper machee pighead on a golden platter, and they surrounded
a George Washington statue and defaced it with which stickers,
which got them kicked out of that area, but they
kept on going. They just ran through Manhattan essentially later
that night, for instance, they exorcised a burlesque cows. They
(27:46):
put a hex on max factor at a beauty clinic,
and they went to a fancy restaurant and handed out
garlic clothes and cards reading we are which, we are women,
we are liberation, we are we. These women were not
to be stopped. And you gotta hand it to some
second wave feminists, like, yeah, they weren't so great with intersectionality,
(28:06):
but my goodness, were they theatrical in their protests? Yeah,
they sure were. There are some great pictures if you Google,
or if you go to stuff I've Never Told You
dot com and look at the source pots for this episode,
you can find a link to an article about which
But there's some great photos out there of them like
running around screaming, trying to be as scary as possible.
But yeah, like christ And said, this was obviously not
(28:27):
a religion, This was not part of wicca as goddess worship,
but it was based on the idea that which is
where the original quote guerrillas and resistance fighters against oppression,
particularly the oppression of women, right down the ages. Again,
there's that reference to like an ancient female driven religion
that's been passed down. Yeah, I mean. And they also
(28:50):
called themselves covens, like rather than some kind of support groups.
There were covens that sprung up all around Boston, Chicago,
San Francisco, North Carolina. I was surprised, and he was
in the research triangle. So um, and they played around
two with the which acronym um Not all went by
(29:10):
Women's International Terrorist conspiracy from Hill. There's also women inspired
to commit her story um. Also women in sensit telephone
company harassment, which listen, ladies, I can get behind in that.
But they called their strikes zapps and I like that.
In nineteen nine, some covens zapped bridal fairs in San
(29:31):
Francisco and New York because they said, quote, marriage is
a dehumanizing institution, legal hordom for women. Yeah. Can you
imagine being in a bridal fair and having a bunch
of women with their faces painted white, wearing all black
running in and telling you you're a whore? Hello, say
yes to the dress? Zapp it. I'd finally watched that show.
(29:55):
Uh God. Every time every time I go home and
hang out with my mother, she's watching a show and
she always looks at me, and she's like, one day,
when this is you, I promise I won't be like
these terrible mothers who judge their their daughter's dresses. And
I'm like, I'm not sure what planet you're living on,
but that's absolutely going to be you anyhoo. I mean
(30:15):
it's Caroline. It sounds like for what your tone that
we are, you're primed to zapp yes to the dress.
I'm saying is that I can envision the headline, you know,
feminist podcasters arrested dressed up as witches arrested on TLC
say yes to the dress. Shoot sight Yeah, okay, it's
a little bit long, alright, it is a little tweaking. Yeah,
(30:37):
but I'm just saying it's got all the ingredients for
a viral post. We can bring Stacy London along, and
I have a witch hat perfect, I have a top
hat perfect, and things don't slow down by any means.
In one we get spiritual feminist Zusanna Budapest, who starts
the lovely named I love this name, Susan Anthony Coven
(31:00):
number one. Yes, she ignored traditional wiccas, so we're not
talking about feminist wicca. She ignored traditional wiccas. Secrecy and
their inclusion of men in order to both bring more
women into the fold and teach more women about the religion.
And of course she gave her groups protests of religious bent.
You know, they would also be protesting the financial and
(31:23):
the corporate but using candles and chants and things like
that to really give it sort of an eerie vibe.
And I was interested to learn that it was around
this time that some Wiccans who were not so interested
in Susan b. Anthony coven number one and its cohorts,
complained that feminist witchcraft was this American product, that was
(31:48):
something that started in the US, and in fact, some
British mail Wiccands, because remember Jerry Gardner and during VALENTI
started everything in the UK, and some British mail Wiccans
were especially put off by feminist witchcraft, equipping that it
was just populated by a load of lesbians. Now, hang on,
(32:08):
Gerald Gardner basically just invented something like out of something
that wasn't real. So so then you have male Wiccans
in England saying, how dare you create your own Wiccan
outpost outcropping of this religion that seems a little funny
(32:29):
doesn't it. I like your simultaneous skepticism and support of happening.
Right now, I know I'm a complex individual. So the
following year, in two, this is after Susanna Budapest has
started the Susan b Anthony covin Glorious Steinhum writes an
essay about ancient gno centric society's echoing. She echoes, you, guys,
(32:53):
she's echoing the idea, the Victorian patronizing idea that ancients
societies didn't understand the whole paternity issue and that women
were indeed worshiped for their fertility. So I appreciate what's
happening in order to like inspire women and try to
empower them and give them a connection to a girl
(33:14):
power past. However, like, can we please do away with
this idea that people don't understand how babies are made?
I mean, this isn't the movie Lagoon right where Brookshields
doesn't understand how pregnancy works. But women did undeniably have
a very intimate connection obviously to things like pregnancy, but
(33:36):
to childbirth as well. And this is something that comes
more into play the following year, in nineteen seventy three,
when Barbara Aaron Reich and Dear dre English Penn the
booklet Witches, Midwives and Nurses, making the case that women
need to reclaim their place in medicine as healers um,
because before medicine became more male dominated and professionalized, when
(33:58):
it came to childbirth, it happened exclusively at home under
the guidance of usually a female midwife. And you have
similar things happening in terms of herbalists and natural healers um,
which were usually women as well. Yeah, and so this
pair we're saying that which is, were just healers whom
(34:19):
the church sought to discredit, And a lot of other
scholars would argue, well, in fact, a lot of the
women who were accused and executed were not necessarily the
leaders and pillars of the community, the intelligent healers. A
lot of these women were poor and had nothing to
do with sort of leadership. It was more about having
(34:42):
an unfortunate reputation basically in your neighborhood and then getting
accused of being a witch. Well, and wasn't there also
a lot of mistrust if these women were old and
had no children, Yes, so that that was part of
it too, Like if you and how is that any
different from ten, Like, if you fall outside the no
warms of society, we're going to be suspicious of you. Yeah.
(35:03):
Instead of calling us witches, they just call us selfish bitches. Well,
I mean there's still spinster Yeah, that's still around. I
mean people looked at spinster women back in the day
and we're like, she's a witch, turned me into a
newt And it's the same today. You know, people are
always accusing me of turning them into nuts. And for
that though, for that reason, I totally totally totally get this,
(35:27):
especially second wave fascination with witches and witchcraft in the
desire to reclaim that in a way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well,
you have someone like the very influential California which Miriam
star Hawk semos in nine publishes the book The Spiral Dance,
a Rebirth of the ancient Religion of the Great Goddess,
(35:48):
And much like Matilda Joscely Engage and Margaret Alice Murray,
who had sort of inserted these snippets of sort of
foe history into our narrative of of empowerment, uh Semus
did the same thing, and she herself, by the way,
speaking of reclaiming that whole idea of woman as powerful
(36:09):
not scary. I do think it's interesting to note that
star Hawk, as she calls herself, has said that she
identifies as a witch because it forces people to confront
why they fear the word. So, I mean, I think
that's an interesting perspective on it. But in her book, Uh,
star Hawk lays out all of these ideas and ideals
around Wicca that aren't entirely accurate and that are borrowed
(36:31):
from those feminist women who came before. She claims that
it's the oldest religion, going back thirty five thousand years,
that its earliest adherents worshiped a mother goddess and a
horned god. You know, we've been over all of this.
She says, it was part of a peaceful, woman centric,
egalitarian society until those jerks, the Indo European man people,
(36:53):
rode through on their horse beasts, springing war and weapons
and patriarchy, which she claimed didn't exist until this happened.
And so then she jumps from the arrival of Indo
European patriarchy to then moving on to Christianity, which then
leads her to discuss the witch hunts and executions, and
(37:15):
she also puts forward Matilda Gauge's figure of nine million executed.
And so her book, which by the way, is still
a lot of people's first introduction to Wicca, inspires a
lot of second waivers who connected with those narratives of
the patriarchy essentially ruining everything, taking away women's power, and
(37:38):
the importance of connecting with a goddess or the goddess,
and her work is highly influential in the wickest sphere.
Did I just make up a term? I don't have it?
That could also be like a candle industry thing, Yes,
although connected they need candles for these ceremonies new side
business Carolina cottage industry, and her work did inspire a
(38:01):
whole bunch of second waivers who connected with this idea
of the patriarchy ruining everything and the importance of connecting
with a goddess. And one of the other big names
during this period in terms of feminism and witchcraft is
the self described radical lesbian feminist Mary Daily, who had
talked about which is in her own nine book guinne Ecology.
(38:25):
There's a slash in there, but in On Mother's Day
nine eight nine, Daily staged The Witches Return, a theatrical
reversal of the old witch trials where she basically put
these so called agents of the patriarchy on trial. Uh. Pornographers,
serial killers, earth rapers, academic brain drainers, and the Roman
(38:46):
Catholic hierarchy, just to name a few. Uh. And during
this ceremony, all of these figures were ritually declared guilty,
hext and beheaded. And Daily claims that hoddest murder is
a tenant of the patriarchy. And you know, I can't
really disagree with her, considering the history of where we
get this idea of like a one goddess like archetypal
(39:10):
goddess worship thing from you know, nineteenth century dudes. Um.
But she says that the answer to that is that
women need to invoke the goddess within. And she did
call witch hunts deliberate woman hunts, So we've heard that before. Yeah, yeah,
So where does all this lead us, Caroline? I mean,
we're in the nineties, then we transition more into the
(39:31):
goddess movement, where it seems like it's a return more
to nature and finding you know, your power from within,
less so than beheading academic brain drainers say, I mean
because really the more scholarship on witchcraft in the history
of which is and especially the killing of which is,
(39:53):
the more that that happens, the less evidence of this
turns up. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is
more evidence, for instance, that there were not these utopian,
peaceful societies. That's that's not to say that there weren't
societies that were more egalitarian or that that had matrilineality. Um.
(40:15):
Claud It did not stumble over that word. Um. But
you know, there's really little evidence that people weren't killing
each other. There's more evidence that people were killing each
other than we're living in egalitarian, peaceful utopias. Um. And
the thing about this whole narrative to UH woman as
(40:36):
which it plays into this idea of woman as nurture,
It seems like a lot of people women too, are
embracing this idea that was put forth by uh kind
of misogynistic nineteenth century men that women are closer to nature,
they're more natural, they're more peaceful, and so we should
appreciate their their chastity and their peacefulness and their earth motherlyness.
(41:00):
So do we see, though any based on everything that
we know all of the things that we've read, do
we see any usefulness for feminist Wicca because a lot
of what we've been doing over the past half hour
plus has been debunking it. Well. Much like many religions,
Wicca might have a degree of made up nous, but
feminist Wicca I can definitely see that it's a way
(41:24):
to experience and exercise power, and to connect with yourself
and with nature, to reject the patriarchy, and to foster
a spiritual life in a religion that's all about women.
It gives them a place at the table, so to speak.
And Melissa Raphael who wrote Introducing Theology that's theology with
an a to indicate goddess worship discourse on the goddess
(41:48):
sites Naomi Goldenberg who said goddess religion can often appear
as wish craft because it teaches women to use spells
and rituals to express their hopes, ambitions, and des ires.
Sometimes the idea of a matriarchy in the past is
put forward as a wish about history, a desire to
be realized in the present and future, and so in
(42:10):
that regard, I think that it's not unlike many other
religions where you want a sense of belonging and empowerment
through believing that you have a place in something bigger
than yourself. And that goes to something that Caroline Ball,
who wrote a whole thesis on Wicko, Witchcraft and the
Goddess Revival, points out is that ultimately it's a lot
(42:31):
more about individuality rather than historical fact, because, as she writes,
it's a religion based upon individual experience, and Wika is
simply a framework to allow these experiences to happen. So
it's understandable if we think about the structure of say
a coven, and that offers you a community, and this
(42:51):
offers you a framework to access perhaps this power and
quotes that you might not otherwise you'll able to to
do yeah in other religions for sure. And and I
mean this is why I read OH magazine. Well, I'm
saying not even like in a religious context, just generally speaking,
(43:11):
you know, it can allow you to do it as
opposed to just not having any religion whatsoever. And other
people find this through the practice of yoga, through meditation.
There's many different ways to feel like you're connecting to
a deeper, more peaceful, and more powerful place within yourself. Um,
(43:31):
that's not an organized official religion or WICCA or anything
like that. There are many different ways to achieve this
and this is just one of them. Well, I'm really
curious to hear from listeners on this because I have
a feeling there's some wiccans listening who might have some
very different perspectives in what we've been sharing, and we're
(43:52):
absolutely open to that. Because this is a half hour podcast,
it's really hard to condense an entire belief system down
into like forty five minutes. So listeners, we want to
hear from you. Mom savat House of Works dot com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
(44:19):
I have one here from Megan about our Women and
Weightlifters episode. She says, Hello, ladies, I listened to your
podcast today regarding ladies and lifting and had to write
in I'm an American College of Sports Medicine exercise physiologist
and I'm a graduate student in a muscle research lab,
so this podcast was right up my alley. I thought
you may find one of my teaching stories rather interesting.
(44:41):
Last year, as part of my assistant ship, I taught
a college weightlifting class. I'm about five ft two and
about a hundred and fifteen pounds. People, especially the gents,
were shocked to see that I was their weightlifting teacher,
ascribing to cultural stereotypes that only big, burly dudes know
anything about weightlifting. One d while letting my class free lift,
an older gentleman approached me and started talking about my class.
(45:04):
He proceeded to tell me what and how I should
be teaching. What's even more annoying is that everything he
was saying was either flat out wrong or outdated. I
read a lot of research, and I'm pretty well versed
on resistance exercise, but this guy was unconvinced. Anytime I
told him research didn't support a thing he said so annoying. Luckily,
going through some of my course evaluations, many of the students,
including the gents, learned a lot from the class, and bonus,
(45:27):
my ladies were less intimidated by the class since I
wasn't a super bulky man bro glad to spread some
of the good weightlifting vibes into the world. Also, quick
p s a since I'm an exercise nerd and as
super passionate about evidence based practices. If you are looking
for some help with starting a resistance training regime, I
highly suggest very critically evaluating the credentials of any fitness expert.
(45:49):
You may find there are no or very few state
laws regarding who can prescribe exercise. There's some personal training
certification exams that are only a twenty minute quiz, so
you have to be careful with whom you're looking at.
I highly suggest American College of Sports Medicine or National
Strength and Condition Association certified individuals. Both of those organizations
(46:10):
are leaders in the field and use firsthand research to
make exercise recommendations. Further, the certifying exams are pretty difficult,
and for some you need an undergrad degree in exercise science.
Other certifying examps are not nearly as intense, and the
personal trainers are not nearly as knowledgeable. Not trying to
sell these organizations, but if you're going to be paying
someone for a service, I think they should be well
qualified to provide that service. Anyway. Love the podcast and
(46:34):
super love this episode. You ladies rock and so do you. Megan,
Thank you, and I've gotta let her hear from Rhea
about our rowdy Ronda Rousey episode, and she writes, as
a UFC fan who's been watching for a few years now,
I feel like this episode was quite biased off the bat.
I understand that a contact sport like m m A
isn't everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of your
(46:55):
criticisms of Rousey felt out of context, gendered, and removed
from a sport. Ding Ding Let's go. When you discussed
the trash talking and comments made about Misha take you
forgot to mention how Rousey's attitude is not unique to her,
but part of the game. When top fighters like Connor
McGregor smack talk opponents in a similar or worse nature,
(47:16):
it just makes him more charismatic and confident, with no
one calling him a catty miss and dress even rousies
do nothing. Bitch's blog within retaliation to Beth Korea's very
personal attack statements during the lead up to their fight
to focus on Dana White wanting Rowsey because of her
looks and not just skill, which is partially true, however,
didn't highlight the entire UFC works this way and doesn't
(47:39):
treat the mail fighters any different, with White having recently
told one of his fighters to get more popular. This
sport is a modern mix of skills social media, self promotion,
and entertainment, and Rousey is a smart businesswoman who creates
the same hype and fan base as other major fighters
in order to get the championship title fights. It seemed
(47:59):
as though your discussion used Rowsy's gender as a reason
for her to be less than her male fighter counterparts.
Above all, she's a fighter, a point that wasn't stressed enough.
She needs to make as much money in her physical
crime before acquiring any serious injuries, beat her opponents as
fast as possible, and make the most of this time
in her career. Yes, her comments on potential steroid it
(48:21):
or transgender opponents were insensitive, but the core of her
words was that quote, this person is going to physically
attack me, So muscle mass power or a good chin
can be as seriously unfair advantage. So thank you for
those insights, Rhea. We appreciate your more expert look at
(48:42):
Rowsy gender and UFC. So with that, if you have
expert views to share with us as well, or just
you know, funny links to send us, Mom, Steve ad
alsap works dot com is where you can email us
and for links all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this
one with links force versus so you can see images
of those feminist witches zapping all over town. Head on
(49:05):
over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for
more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how
stuff Works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom never told you from how Supports
dot com. Well, welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline and
I'm Christian and we are not contrary to whatever the
title of this episode maybe talking about the history of
(00:25):
witchcraft and WICCA specifically. Instead, we wanted to focus more
on how both men and women throughout our modern history
have used these two things Wika and Witchcraft, for sort
of their own purposes, shaped the history of these things
to fit narratives that were interesting and convenient for them
(00:48):
at the time. Well, I mean, and wick is still
super popular today and still has lots of feminists underpinnings
as well. Absolutely WICKA and Witchcraft, although some people would
say that those are interchangeable. Um, I saw it explained
as like the way that Catholicism, Mr. Christianity WIKA is
(01:08):
to Witchcraft. So WIKA has much longer ceremonies, Yeah, more
smells and bells. As a family friends says, spells and bells.
That does that a lot like Witchcraft. I know, all
of that boiled, boiled, toil and trouble or whatever it is.
I have Newts so exhausted. It's like about feminist eyes
(01:30):
of newt today on the podcast. We're gonna cook up
some potions, cast some spells hopefully on your listening ears
love it um. Actual witches are listening and being like,
we are being so poorly represented right now because it's
not all about spell casting. Obviously it's not, because there's
no such thing. Yeah, yeah, we should disspel that, Caroline,
(01:53):
See what I did there. We're also going to dispel
some other notions Kristen, namely at WICCA and witchcraft. Is
this ancient connection to our matriarchal, lady loving, solely peaceful,
utopian past and that it was fostered completely by women.
(02:15):
Oh man, so many spoilers just got alerted, So many spoilers.
But first, let's break down kind of what we're talking
about today. We're we're talking about two main ideas Wicca,
like we've said, but also this idea of the Goddess
movement and Goddess feminism. Goddess blessed that whole thing that
some people put on bumper stickers on their cars exactly.
(02:37):
So the Goddess movement is the worshiping of the divine feminine,
the archetypal mother, and they really pushed the idea that
women need to understand their own value. And this comes
into when you look at feminist Wicca in particular. So
there's Wicca, which is a neopagan religion. Practitioners sometimes call
themselves witches. They worship a duo of a and God
(03:00):
and a moon goddess, although of course there are variations,
but that feminist Wicca and the goddess movement are super
closely aligned because feminist Wicca is a goddess religion, so
maybe they don't hold that horned God in the same
type of standing that they do the goddess. But it
also incorporates a lot of things like green and eco
politics and folk medicine, and is also super concerned with
(03:22):
women empowering themselves. And there are all sorts of offshoots
including Dianic Wicca, Native American Wicca, Greek and Egyptian lesbian separatists,
wise woman healers. I mean, they are all different forms,
kind of like feminism that it can take different interpretations
that people can have. And I guess you would also
(03:43):
say that they would practice through their Wicca. And I
always thought that Wicca and witchcraft were these ancient practices,
like a lot of people have said, I had no
idea that its origins were so much more modern than
all of that. And it really is back to the
nineteenth century, particularly uh Masonic ritual and occult obsessions with
(04:06):
both goddesses and matriarchies that were pretty much like in
vogue during that time and mostly though bended about by
dudes who were grateful not to be in those matriarchies.
So the matriarchies were discussed as an example of look
how far we've come. Yeah, basically when when all those
(04:27):
moon goddesses ruled everything. Um, Yeah, when we look at
the nineteenth century, you have the rise of secret societies,
occult practices, spiritualism, and rejection of orthodox religion. And I mean,
I love this period of time because some people are
really kind of losing their minds. Yeah, this is when
(04:47):
we see a lot of mediums. You know, Kristen and
I did that episode way back in the day, were
mediums the first feminists. And it's so funny to me
to think about it that, yes, there was a movement
away from organiz as traditional religion, but much like Fox
Molder Kristen, people still want to believe it's such human
nature that even if you reject Christianity, in general, or Judaism,
(05:12):
or or just a subset of either of those religions,
or any religion. You still have this drive to believe
in something bigger than yourself. And I think that's such
a human trait. And in this case, it was all
about the occult and these mystical forces that weren't really Christian,
weren't really Jewish, they were something else that sort of
borrowed from these new traditions that were arising in the
(05:35):
nineteenth century. Well, and it seems like a lot of
them were really enamored with the power of nature, the
magic in nature. So during the Romantic period, which is
in the first half of the nineteenth century, you have
these mostly male German and French thinkers who are really
interested in natural forces, particularly those aligned with women, because
(05:58):
you know, as we've often talked about, you know, nature
is considered very feminine and maternal. Think about fertility and
all that all that jazz, all that jazz. Well you
also have to uh take into consideration that around this
time people are starting to sort of project a lot
of meaning onto the classic gods and goddesses that have
(06:21):
been displaced by Christianity. So all of a sudden you
have a lot of people, both artists, writers, poets, who
are starting to associate in their works of art, whether
that is writing or like painting or sculpture. Um, they're
starting to associate these gods and goddesses with the natural world,
with natural mystical forces, rather than how back in ye
(06:45):
old and Greek times people tended to look at these
gods and goddesses as sort of petty, bigger holy versions
of ourselves, like they all had fights, and we're cheating
on each other and causing wars and strife and basically
men ling in human endeavors. So the way that the
Romantics were looking at him was more like, well, yeah, maybe,
(07:06):
but they're they're mystical, and they're they're influencing nature, they're
part of nature. And so this is when we also
get Mother Earth and things like fairies, which were typically
tiny ladies, popping up as popular deities and figures in literature.
And there's a big milestone in eighteen forty nine when
(07:28):
German classicist Edward Gerrard becomes the first to assert that
all ancient goddesses derived from a single mother goddess. And
this is really Caroline has made me think a lot
about the title of our podcast, stuff Mom Never Told You.
Should we update that to like stuff single Mother Goddess
(07:48):
Never told you? Although the answer would be like nothing,
because she's the single mother Goddess, of course she probably
knows all, so it just would. But that doesn't mean
she would tell us everything. She's also afraid to have
the birds and bees and periods conversation. The single mother
God has never prepared us for monarchy. Thanks a lot,
Thanks a lot. But it's important to keep in mind
(08:10):
that this narrative is developing despite the fact that ancient
religions were polytheistic. There's really not much evidence that these societies.
These ancient societies worshiped a single archetypal goddess. Yes, they
had goddesses, but this man driven narrative is developing in
(08:30):
the nineteenth century that like, oh, there was just one
pure earthy mother goddess who was worshiped by all of
these societies. Do you think there was sort of mixing
things up with like the cults that would arise around
specific gods and goddesses to like the cult of Diana
or the cult of Dionysus. Men, it could be. I mean,
(08:51):
there were there were discussions about things like the cult
of of Diana. People can uh not Princess Diana listeners
by the goddess Diana. Yeah, I mean there were people
who were convinced that there were still Dianic cults going
on in the nineteenth century, that they were just like
hidden away in pockets, that we had yet to find
(09:11):
pocket change their tiny cults, pocket pocket sized tiny cults. Um.
And in eighteen sixty one you've got Swiss jurist and
writer Johann yakobakafin nice pronunciation that people would disagree with you. Ah,
he positive that our earliest societies were matriarchies. That sounds great,
(09:33):
I love it. Let's stop there, feminists, and there are
a number of feminist thinkers who talk a lot in
terms of the ancient matriarch. This is this is I mean,
this is why we're giving you this this nineteenth century
history fair listeners to to explain where this idea came from. However,
it wasn't a positive but coffin, I don't know if
(09:54):
that's really h could be more of a cough and
says on the cop and bo copon real popping up
here and the mic he and others saw patriarchy as
a victory of rationality over those feminine, those traditional feminine
(10:15):
traits of instinct, nurturing, and closeness to nature. So basically like, yes,
these ancient societies were matriarchies. I'm sure of it, because
look at how powerful and amazing we are now that
we've done away with all of that. Oh that's interesting.
It's kind of a way to elevate and celebrate. I
didn't need to make that rhyme, these patriarchal structures. And
(10:36):
aren't we so glad we have our separate spheres and
women aren't allowed to go outside and get jobs because
their uteruses will float away. Some serious humble bragging happening
then in this early matriarchy philosophy and theories. So by
the early twentieth century it was generally assumed then that,
of course, these ancient Mediterranean religions definitely worshiped a great
(11:02):
mother Earth goddess over everything else, and drawing on nineteenth
century thought, including the patronizing Victorian idea that ancient cultures
didn't realize men played a role in reproduction. Basically, any
archaeological sites and corresponding female figures or representations that were
uncovered were thought as evidence of the goddess worship. So,
(11:26):
for instance, one archaeological expedition that's frequently cited in UH
texts about the development of this goddess worship idea is
uncovering things at Minoan temples from Minoan society and finding
artistic representations of women um and just assuming that they
(11:49):
were either goddesses or that they were participating in a
goddess worship ritual. There was no like, hey, maybe this
could mean something else, or these women could be doing
something else, like who knows, shopping, I don't know, but
it was automatically assumed by a lot of these people
that like, oh, no, there's just women. It just means
that they're worshiping a goddess. They didn't stop to think, like,
maybe something else is going on. Although I gotta say
(12:12):
that I like the idea that in the far future
that if people find the relics of my life, people
would just assume, oh, evidence of the she was goddess,
people just worshiping her, you know, yeah, fingers crossed with
all your YouTube videos with us, with the cash of videos, like,
people will automatically assume, yes, when people find the pile
(12:33):
of my YouTube wigs be like, obviously, goddess, she had
so much hair, she just disappeared. That's all that's left
of her. So where does Wicca come into all of this?
It makes a surprisingly late arrival in the mid twentieth
century thanks to a guy named Jerry. Yeah, amateur anthropologist
(12:56):
Gerald B. Gardner. Uh, he seems like quite a rabble rouser.
This this Jerry, He belonged to an organization. It was
influenced by many nineteenth century occultist groups, which themselves, by
the way, ps were influenced by Freemasons. And in the
nineteen fifties, Gardner, having all of these influences from this
(13:18):
like secret society that he's part of, and having read
all of this stuff by the Romantic authors and poets,
he introduces a religion that he calls Wicca with only
one see, which he claimed, I love this. He didn't
bother to say why, yes, I've developed this system of
beliefs and rituals. No, he figured that that would not
get his religion enough. I don't know, we would say
(13:40):
clicks nowadays in the Internet. It wasn't clickbaitia enough. No,
he claimed that he encountered these religious beliefs and practices
through a friendly coven of witches with ties to the
ancient religion in his organization. But the thing is like
people have people like very surely they're after up to
(14:03):
today have gone back and been like there's there's no
evidence that these people even existed. But the timing of
this is worth mentioning too, because Gardner kind of debuts
WICCA in nineteen fifty three, which was made possible by
the Witchcraft Act finally being repealed in Britain in nineteen
(14:25):
fifty one. So it was all about timing. Otherwise it
would have he would have had to have kept it
more underground because it would be illegal. But like you said, Caroline,
it wasn't like he was unveiling some ancient religion, but
rather what was and and not to disparage Wicka at all,
but in terms of what Gardner was presenting in some
ways it was a hodgepodge of ideas that he collected
(14:48):
from British occultists Elis Sir Crowley, Charles Godfrey Leland, who
was a nineteenth century American amateur folklorist who had claimed
he found a surviving cult of Diana in Italy. This
pocket got us. He founds a pocket gottess is polypocket
gott us. And mainly though he pulled from British egyptologist
(15:10):
Margaret Alice Murray. Yeah, and Murray herself was inspired by
Leyland and in the nineteen twenties developed a framework of
Wickan ritual and belief. She even wrote the introduction to
Gardner's nineteen fifty four books like that's how intimately aligned
they were. And Margaret Alice Murray is a pretty interesting
figure in and of herself, as if you couldn't tell
(15:32):
by the whole, like egyptologist developing a Wiccan religion thing.
She wrote the book The Witch Cult in Western Europe
in nineteen twenty one, And I know we're backing up here,
but it did regain popularity in the forties and fifties
thanks to people like Gardener and the growth of what
we call modern Wicca. And this witch cult book was
(15:53):
notable because what she did was combed through accused witches
confessions and treat them Egyptologists that she was as ethnographic data,
in other words, considering them truthful as opposed to just
being confessions under duress that aren't to be trusted. Yeah,
and so she noticed patterns in some of the testimony,
and she wanted to know why so many of these
(16:16):
accused witches had said similar things, like, for instance, they
had signed a pack with the devil, they had engaged
in ritual orgies, they possessed magical powers. To me, this
just sounds like a college party so far. And she concluded,
based on the testimony of people who witnessed the trials,
that there had not been torture, that these people were
(16:37):
really part of an organized religion or fertility cult that
had survived in Europe since ancient time. So there's this
idea again that modern Wicca and witchcraft was connected to
an ancient lady religion, and all of this helped strengthen
the ideas that witchcraft again was super ancient, stretched back
(16:57):
to the Paleolithic era, and that the Church had tried
to eradicate it. And in fact, she linked Witchcraft's horned
god that we mentioned a while back to ancient cave paintings,
and she said the leader of a coven would wear
horns and was called the devil by early Christians, indicating
that this is how Christianity came up with the horned
(17:19):
depiction of the devil. Yeah, And so basically she argued
that when witches on trial confessed to worshiping the devil,
they weren't saying, yes, I worship our Lord Satan. That
it was like, no, we are a peaceful nature people
who in our coven, you know, swore loyalty to our officer, who,
(17:39):
as part of the ritual, boots on a set of
horns and we danced around a fire or whatever. So basically,
these people are harmless, and witchcraft is ancient and the
Church is evil. She also, by the way, did assert
that fairies were real and that they had a matriarchal culture.
So you throw in some sonic influence and para influence.
(18:00):
Which side note, Caroline, we do need to do an
episode all about tarot cards. Heck yeah, oh my god,
middle school Caroline. Oh, were you into taro rooms and
taro See? I was like, I was like the people
at the beginning that I mentioned, like I have to
believe in something because I'm not into Christianity. Well, I
can't wait for our podcast tarot card reading. But in
addition to those things, you have archaic language, especially in spells, rituals, nudism.
(18:27):
Because Gardner was a nudist and a little bit of
ritual sex, and you have modern American Wicca basically in
the way that Gardner outlined it. But Caroline, you gotta
give an honorable mention to Doreen Edith Dominique Valenti because
without her, Gardner's ideas probably would not have been as
(18:49):
successful as they were. Um. She became one of the
most influential leaders of WICCA and as part of why
the religion is seen as women friendly today. So she
was initiated into WICCA in nine three, so she was
there from the early days and yes, um and she
(19:10):
was responsible for writing much of early Gardenerian religious liturgy,
and in later years she played a big part in
bringing WICCA into wider public attention because she was very prolific.
So she wrote an ABC of Witchcraft, Natural Magic, Witchcraft
for Tomorrow, and the Rebirth of Witchcraft. So I mean
(19:32):
she was really spreading a lot of a lot of
this stuff about fascinating. So she is she would you
argue that she helped attract women to WICCA and witchcraft
during that time, because I mean that was part of
the attraction to it in the first place, was that
there was room for female leadership and an unlike more
(19:53):
traditional religions like Christianity that hasn't always been so kind
to female leadership. You don't say, well, speaking of that
impressive woman, I think you mean which, Caroline, I sure do.
No impressive which, no disrespect because it's us. We should
probably now talk about how we get our modern links
(20:13):
between feminism and the practice of wicked and witchcraft, because
you know, we mentioned that all of those nineteenth century
romantic dudes, we're basically like, oh, thank god, we're We're
past that matriarchy period in our history. It was a
dark period. Once we get into the twentieth century and
we get into first wave and second wave feminism, you
(20:34):
have a lot of women saying, no, it's not that
we're past it. It's that we're just in this like awful,
terrible patriarchal holding period before we get back to our
matriarchal cultures. And so we will talk all about that
after a quick break. So in the first half of show,
(21:00):
we talked a lot about dudes, and people might have
been scratching their heads because the child of this podcast
is feminist witchcraft, and they're probably like, Christine, Caroline, where
are you talking so much about dudes, where's all the
feminism and all this stuff? That's right, Feminism and witchcraft
have been pretty closely aligned, and not just since second
way feminism with the actual literal group that was called
(21:22):
which it has its roots in the suffrage movement, to
with star witchcraft scholar Matilda Joscely Engage, and of course
you might recognize her name from being oh, a feminist leader,
a suffragist, and a historian. She used the narrative of
witchcraft and the witch hunt and witch trials to enlighten
(21:44):
her readers about basically how the church was damaging women.
She wanted to give women a historical context for their oppression,
so she wrote the book Woman, Church and State and
traced the witch hunts and executions who are religious belief
in the quote extreme wickedness of woman who would sell
(22:05):
her soul to the devil to become a witch. And
basically through her book, Gauge was responding to a conservative
movement in society to blur the lines between church and state,
which sounds familiar, and she was determined. This woman was
determined to educate new suffragists in the movement, those who
wanted to use their potential vote to support the more
(22:27):
conservative blurring of the lines changes about the ways in
which the church had harmed women. She was basically like, look,
we have this history of the church burning women at
the stake using the excuse of witchcraft. So let's talk
about witches and let's talk about how the witch hunt
was really a woman hunt. Yeah. She was like, just
subout women for witch and your eyes will be open
(22:52):
to everything. And she argued that witches could be good
and we're simply what she called women of superior non colledge.
And this is a fascinating pop cultural connection between first
wave suffrage, witchcraft, Matilda Joscely Engage, and The Wizard of
Oz because listeners prepared to have your mind blown. Her
(23:15):
concept of good women as witches inspired ultimately Glenda, the
good Witch and the Wicked Witch of the West in
The Wizard of Oz. That's right. Yeah, she was the
mother in law of Frank Bomb, who wrote The Wizard
of Oz. She inspired this duo because, according to bombs biographer,
Glinda's power came from within herself. That's an idea that
(23:39):
Gauge inspired and it's also a theme that we will
revisit when we talk about second wave feminism and modern WICCA.
But Gauge put forward the idea, she was one of
the first women to do so, that the idea that
Christianity had always restricted the quote liberty women enjoyed under
the old civil station. So there's that idea again of
(24:01):
that like super free, utopian, peaceful, woman driven society. And
she highlighted the Church's targeting of women in the witch hunts,
and she pointed to their persecution of women of remarkable
intellect and beauty who were thought to be in league
with the devil, which is very similar to how we
even pop culturally portray which is a lot of times today. Um,
(24:26):
but this is really important. She made the claim that
the Church had executed upwards of nine million people, mostly women,
for witchcraft, and this was kind of her hook with
all of it, of like, look at this massacre that
has happened. This is clear cut evidence of how the
Church has pathologically targeted all of these women. So, ladies,
(24:48):
we need to cut ties. You need to get wise
to this history or history rather. Um. But the thing
is modern historians put that number much closer to afforded
to fifty tho. Nonetheless, her argument and that startling number
of nine million, which was not entirely accurate, was effective.
I mean, it was very easy for women of her
(25:11):
day in the nineteenth century to feel connected to the witchy,
especially if they were people like Gauge who wanted suffrage,
who wanted freedom, who wanted to exercise their intellect. Um.
So you have this this first connection between feminism and
(25:31):
witchcraft of basically the essence of it being any woman
who was not interested in the patriarchy. Yeah, it was.
It was giving women that historical foundation of you once
had power, the church did away with it. When we
get the vote, you cannot support the church because look
at this colorful and tragic history that we've had. We
(25:53):
need to get back to a place where women have power.
So it's easy to see why nineteenth century women suffered,
just in particular, would be attracted to that narrative. When
we get into the second wave of feminism, though, it's
less about that witchtory establishing the witchtory, because by then
it's already well established, it's ingrained in a lot of narratives,
(26:16):
and it's more about just smashing that patriarchy, of saying okay, yeah, Matilda,
Jocelyn engage gave us this history. We believe in it.
Let's get back now to a point where things are
driven by women. So in things get about as second
wave as they possibly can. When you have a group
of New York feminists led by Robin Morrigan form which
(26:39):
which stands for Women's International Terrorists, Conspiracy from Hell and
listen people, they had like zero to do with WIKA.
They were not religious in any way, shape or form.
They were more intent on an anarchic sisterhood that urge
women to claim their power. I mean they're essentially like
going around and disrupting things. So there. Their favorite was
(27:03):
to target centers of financial, corporate and academic power with
very theatrical kinds of protests. And they first struck Halloween
on Wall Street, which they referred to as the Imperialist
Phallic Society, And they danced in front of the Federal
Reserve Treasury Bank, led by a high priestess toting a
(27:24):
paper machee pighead on a golden platter, and they surrounded
a George Washington statue and defaced it with which stickers,
which got them kicked out of that area, but they
kept on going. They just ran through Manhattan essentially later
that night, for instance, they exorcised a burlesque cows. They
(27:46):
put a hex on max factor at a beauty clinic,
and they went to a fancy restaurant and handed out
garlic clothes and cards reading we are which, we are women,
we are liberation, we are we. These women were not
to be stopped. And you gotta hand it to some
second wave feminists, like, yeah, they weren't so great with intersectionality,
(28:06):
but my goodness, were they theatrical in their protests? Yeah,
they sure were. There are some great pictures if you Google,
or if you go to stuff I've Never Told You
dot com and look at the source pots for this episode,
you can find a link to an article about which
But there's some great photos out there of them like
running around screaming, trying to be as scary as possible.
But yeah, like christ And said, this was obviously not
(28:27):
a religion, This was not part of wicca as goddess worship,
but it was based on the idea that which is
where the original quote guerrillas and resistance fighters against oppression,
particularly the oppression of women, right down the ages. Again,
there's that reference to like an ancient female driven religion
that's been passed down. Yeah, I mean. And they also
(28:50):
called themselves covens, like rather than some kind of support groups.
There were covens that sprung up all around Boston, Chicago,
San Francisco, North Carolina. I was surprised, and he was
in the research triangle. So um, and they played around
two with the which acronym um Not all went by
(29:10):
Women's International Terrorist conspiracy from Hill. There's also women inspired
to commit her story um. Also women in sensit telephone
company harassment, which listen, ladies, I can get behind in that.
But they called their strikes zapps and I like that.
In nineteen nine, some covens zapped bridal fairs in San
(29:31):
Francisco and New York because they said, quote, marriage is
a dehumanizing institution, legal hordom for women. Yeah. Can you
imagine being in a bridal fair and having a bunch
of women with their faces painted white, wearing all black
running in and telling you you're a whore? Hello, say
yes to the dress? Zapp it. I'd finally watched that show.
(29:55):
Uh God. Every time every time I go home and
hang out with my mother, she's watching a show and
she always looks at me, and she's like, one day,
when this is you, I promise I won't be like
these terrible mothers who judge their their daughter's dresses. And
I'm like, I'm not sure what planet you're living on,
but that's absolutely going to be you anyhoo. I mean
(30:15):
it's Caroline. It sounds like for what your tone that
we are, you're primed to zapp yes to the dress.
I'm saying is that I can envision the headline, you know,
feminist podcasters arrested dressed up as witches arrested on TLC
say yes to the dress. Shoot sight Yeah, okay, it's
a little bit long, alright, it is a little tweaking. Yeah,
(30:37):
but I'm just saying it's got all the ingredients for
a viral post. We can bring Stacy London along, and
I have a witch hat perfect, I have a top
hat perfect, and things don't slow down by any means.
In one we get spiritual feminist Zusanna Budapest, who starts
the lovely named I love this name, Susan Anthony Coven
(31:00):
number one. Yes, she ignored traditional wiccas, so we're not
talking about feminist wicca. She ignored traditional wiccas. Secrecy and
their inclusion of men in order to both bring more
women into the fold and teach more women about the religion.
And of course she gave her groups protests of religious bent.
You know, they would also be protesting the financial and
(31:23):
the corporate but using candles and chants and things like
that to really give it sort of an eerie vibe.
And I was interested to learn that it was around
this time that some Wiccans who were not so interested
in Susan b. Anthony coven number one and its cohorts,
complained that feminist witchcraft was this American product, that was
(31:48):
something that started in the US, and in fact, some
British mail Wiccands, because remember Jerry Gardner and during VALENTI
started everything in the UK, and some British mail Wiccans
were especially put off by feminist witchcraft, equipping that it
was just populated by a load of lesbians. Now, hang on,
(32:08):
Gerald Gardner basically just invented something like out of something
that wasn't real. So so then you have male Wiccans
in England saying, how dare you create your own Wiccan
outpost outcropping of this religion that seems a little funny
(32:29):
doesn't it. I like your simultaneous skepticism and support of happening.
Right now, I know I'm a complex individual. So the
following year, in two, this is after Susanna Budapest has
started the Susan b Anthony covin Glorious Steinhum writes an
essay about ancient gno centric society's echoing. She echoes, you, guys,
(32:53):
she's echoing the idea, the Victorian patronizing idea that ancients
societies didn't understand the whole paternity issue and that women
were indeed worshiped for their fertility. So I appreciate what's
happening in order to like inspire women and try to
empower them and give them a connection to a girl
(33:14):
power past. However, like, can we please do away with
this idea that people don't understand how babies are made?
I mean, this isn't the movie Lagoon right where Brookshields
doesn't understand how pregnancy works. But women did undeniably have
a very intimate connection obviously to things like pregnancy, but
(33:36):
to childbirth as well. And this is something that comes
more into play the following year, in nineteen seventy three,
when Barbara Aaron Reich and Dear dre English Penn the
booklet Witches, Midwives and Nurses, making the case that women
need to reclaim their place in medicine as healers um,
because before medicine became more male dominated and professionalized, when
(33:58):
it came to childbirth, it happened exclusively at home under
the guidance of usually a female midwife. And you have
similar things happening in terms of herbalists and natural healers um,
which were usually women as well. Yeah, and so this
pair we're saying that which is, were just healers whom
(34:19):
the church sought to discredit, And a lot of other
scholars would argue, well, in fact, a lot of the
women who were accused and executed were not necessarily the
leaders and pillars of the community, the intelligent healers. A
lot of these women were poor and had nothing to
do with sort of leadership. It was more about having
(34:42):
an unfortunate reputation basically in your neighborhood and then getting
accused of being a witch. Well, and wasn't there also
a lot of mistrust if these women were old and
had no children, Yes, so that that was part of
it too, Like if you and how is that any
different from ten, Like, if you fall outside the no
warms of society, we're going to be suspicious of you. Yeah.
(35:03):
Instead of calling us witches, they just call us selfish bitches. Well,
I mean there's still spinster Yeah, that's still around. I
mean people looked at spinster women back in the day
and we're like, she's a witch, turned me into a
newt And it's the same today. You know, people are
always accusing me of turning them into nuts. And for
that though, for that reason, I totally totally totally get this,
(35:27):
especially second wave fascination with witches and witchcraft in the
desire to reclaim that in a way. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well,
you have someone like the very influential California which Miriam
star Hawk semos in nine publishes the book The Spiral Dance,
a Rebirth of the ancient Religion of the Great Goddess,
(35:48):
And much like Matilda Joscely Engage and Margaret Alice Murray,
who had sort of inserted these snippets of sort of
foe history into our narrative of of empowerment, uh Semus
did the same thing, and she herself, by the way,
speaking of reclaiming that whole idea of woman as powerful
(36:09):
not scary. I do think it's interesting to note that
star Hawk, as she calls herself, has said that she
identifies as a witch because it forces people to confront
why they fear the word. So, I mean, I think
that's an interesting perspective on it. But in her book, Uh,
star Hawk lays out all of these ideas and ideals
around Wicca that aren't entirely accurate and that are borrowed
(36:31):
from those feminist women who came before. She claims that
it's the oldest religion, going back thirty five thousand years,
that its earliest adherents worshiped a mother goddess and a
horned god. You know, we've been over all of this.
She says, it was part of a peaceful, woman centric,
egalitarian society until those jerks, the Indo European man people,
(36:53):
rode through on their horse beasts, springing war and weapons
and patriarchy, which she claimed didn't exist until this happened.
And so then she jumps from the arrival of Indo
European patriarchy to then moving on to Christianity, which then
leads her to discuss the witch hunts and executions, and
(37:15):
she also puts forward Matilda Gauge's figure of nine million executed.
And so her book, which by the way, is still
a lot of people's first introduction to Wicca, inspires a
lot of second waivers who connected with those narratives of
the patriarchy essentially ruining everything, taking away women's power, and
(37:38):
the importance of connecting with a goddess or the goddess,
and her work is highly influential in the wickest sphere.
Did I just make up a term? I don't have it?
That could also be like a candle industry thing, Yes,
although connected they need candles for these ceremonies new side
business Carolina cottage industry, and her work did inspire a
(38:01):
whole bunch of second waivers who connected with this idea
of the patriarchy ruining everything and the importance of connecting
with a goddess. And one of the other big names
during this period in terms of feminism and witchcraft is
the self described radical lesbian feminist Mary Daily, who had
talked about which is in her own nine book guinne Ecology.
(38:25):
There's a slash in there, but in On Mother's Day
nine eight nine, Daily staged The Witches Return, a theatrical
reversal of the old witch trials where she basically put
these so called agents of the patriarchy on trial. Uh. Pornographers,
serial killers, earth rapers, academic brain drainers, and the Roman
(38:46):
Catholic hierarchy, just to name a few. Uh. And during
this ceremony, all of these figures were ritually declared guilty,
hext and beheaded. And Daily claims that hoddest murder is
a tenant of the patriarchy. And you know, I can't
really disagree with her, considering the history of where we
get this idea of like a one goddess like archetypal
(39:10):
goddess worship thing from you know, nineteenth century dudes. Um.
But she says that the answer to that is that
women need to invoke the goddess within. And she did
call witch hunts deliberate woman hunts, So we've heard that before. Yeah, yeah,
So where does all this lead us, Caroline? I mean,
we're in the nineties, then we transition more into the
(39:31):
goddess movement, where it seems like it's a return more
to nature and finding you know, your power from within,
less so than beheading academic brain drainers say, I mean
because really the more scholarship on witchcraft in the history
of which is and especially the killing of which is,
(39:53):
the more that that happens, the less evidence of this
turns up. Yeah, I mean, I think that there is
more evidence, for instance, that there were not these utopian,
peaceful societies. That's that's not to say that there weren't
societies that were more egalitarian or that that had matrilineality. Um.
(40:15):
Claud It did not stumble over that word. Um. But
you know, there's really little evidence that people weren't killing
each other. There's more evidence that people were killing each
other than we're living in egalitarian, peaceful utopias. Um. And
the thing about this whole narrative to UH woman as
(40:36):
which it plays into this idea of woman as nurture,
It seems like a lot of people women too, are
embracing this idea that was put forth by uh kind
of misogynistic nineteenth century men that women are closer to nature,
they're more natural, they're more peaceful, and so we should
appreciate their their chastity and their peacefulness and their earth motherlyness.
(41:00):
So do we see, though any based on everything that
we know all of the things that we've read, do
we see any usefulness for feminist Wicca because a lot
of what we've been doing over the past half hour
plus has been debunking it. Well. Much like many religions,
Wicca might have a degree of made up nous, but
feminist Wicca I can definitely see that it's a way
(41:24):
to experience and exercise power, and to connect with yourself
and with nature, to reject the patriarchy, and to foster
a spiritual life in a religion that's all about women.
It gives them a place at the table, so to speak.
And Melissa Raphael who wrote Introducing Theology that's theology with
an a to indicate goddess worship discourse on the goddess
(41:48):
sites Naomi Goldenberg who said goddess religion can often appear
as wish craft because it teaches women to use spells
and rituals to express their hopes, ambitions, and des ires.
Sometimes the idea of a matriarchy in the past is
put forward as a wish about history, a desire to
be realized in the present and future, and so in
(42:10):
that regard, I think that it's not unlike many other
religions where you want a sense of belonging and empowerment
through believing that you have a place in something bigger
than yourself. And that goes to something that Caroline Ball,
who wrote a whole thesis on Wicko, Witchcraft and the
Goddess Revival, points out is that ultimately it's a lot
(42:31):
more about individuality rather than historical fact, because, as she writes,
it's a religion based upon individual experience, and Wika is
simply a framework to allow these experiences to happen. So
it's understandable if we think about the structure of say
a coven, and that offers you a community, and this
(42:51):
offers you a framework to access perhaps this power and
quotes that you might not otherwise you'll able to to
do yeah in other religions for sure. And and I
mean this is why I read OH magazine. Well, I'm
saying not even like in a religious context, just generally speaking,
(43:11):
you know, it can allow you to do it as
opposed to just not having any religion whatsoever. And other
people find this through the practice of yoga, through meditation.
There's many different ways to feel like you're connecting to
a deeper, more peaceful, and more powerful place within yourself. Um,
(43:31):
that's not an organized official religion or WICCA or anything
like that. There are many different ways to achieve this
and this is just one of them. Well, I'm really
curious to hear from listeners on this because I have
a feeling there's some wiccans listening who might have some
very different perspectives in what we've been sharing, and we're
(43:52):
absolutely open to that. Because this is a half hour podcast,
it's really hard to condense an entire belief system down
into like forty five minutes. So listeners, we want to
hear from you. Mom savat House of Works dot com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
(44:19):
I have one here from Megan about our Women and
Weightlifters episode. She says, Hello, ladies, I listened to your
podcast today regarding ladies and lifting and had to write
in I'm an American College of Sports Medicine exercise physiologist
and I'm a graduate student in a muscle research lab,
so this podcast was right up my alley. I thought
you may find one of my teaching stories rather interesting.
(44:41):
Last year, as part of my assistant ship, I taught
a college weightlifting class. I'm about five ft two and
about a hundred and fifteen pounds. People, especially the gents,
were shocked to see that I was their weightlifting teacher,
ascribing to cultural stereotypes that only big, burly dudes know
anything about weightlifting. One d while letting my class free lift,
an older gentleman approached me and started talking about my class.
(45:04):
He proceeded to tell me what and how I should
be teaching. What's even more annoying is that everything he
was saying was either flat out wrong or outdated. I
read a lot of research, and I'm pretty well versed
on resistance exercise, but this guy was unconvinced. Anytime I
told him research didn't support a thing he said so annoying. Luckily,
going through some of my course evaluations, many of the students,
including the gents, learned a lot from the class, and bonus,
(45:27):
my ladies were less intimidated by the class since I
wasn't a super bulky man bro glad to spread some
of the good weightlifting vibes into the world. Also, quick
p s a since I'm an exercise nerd and as
super passionate about evidence based practices. If you are looking
for some help with starting a resistance training regime, I
highly suggest very critically evaluating the credentials of any fitness expert.
(45:49):
You may find there are no or very few state
laws regarding who can prescribe exercise. There's some personal training
certification exams that are only a twenty minute quiz, so
you have to be careful with whom you're looking at.
I highly suggest American College of Sports Medicine or National
Strength and Condition Association certified individuals. Both of those organizations
(46:10):
are leaders in the field and use firsthand research to
make exercise recommendations. Further, the certifying exams are pretty difficult,
and for some you need an undergrad degree in exercise science.
Other certifying examps are not nearly as intense, and the
personal trainers are not nearly as knowledgeable. Not trying to
sell these organizations, but if you're going to be paying
someone for a service, I think they should be well
qualified to provide that service. Anyway. Love the podcast and
(46:34):
super love this episode. You ladies rock and so do you. Megan,
Thank you, and I've gotta let her hear from Rhea
about our rowdy Ronda Rousey episode, and she writes, as
a UFC fan who's been watching for a few years now,
I feel like this episode was quite biased off the bat.
I understand that a contact sport like m m A
isn't everyone's cup of tea, but a lot of your
(46:55):
criticisms of Rousey felt out of context, gendered, and removed
from a sport. Ding Ding Let's go. When you discussed
the trash talking and comments made about Misha take you
forgot to mention how Rousey's attitude is not unique to her,
but part of the game. When top fighters like Connor
McGregor smack talk opponents in a similar or worse nature,
(47:16):
it just makes him more charismatic and confident, with no
one calling him a catty miss and dress even rousies
do nothing. Bitch's blog within retaliation to Beth Korea's very
personal attack statements during the lead up to their fight
to focus on Dana White wanting Rowsey because of her
looks and not just skill, which is partially true, however,
didn't highlight the entire UFC works this way and doesn't
(47:39):
treat the mail fighters any different, with White having recently
told one of his fighters to get more popular. This
sport is a modern mix of skills social media, self promotion,
and entertainment, and Rousey is a smart businesswoman who creates
the same hype and fan base as other major fighters
in order to get the championship title fights. It seemed
(47:59):
as though your discussion used Rowsy's gender as a reason
for her to be less than her male fighter counterparts.
Above all, she's a fighter, a point that wasn't stressed enough.
She needs to make as much money in her physical
crime before acquiring any serious injuries, beat her opponents as
fast as possible, and make the most of this time
in her career. Yes, her comments on potential steroid it
(48:21):
or transgender opponents were insensitive, but the core of her
words was that quote, this person is going to physically
attack me, So muscle mass power or a good chin
can be as seriously unfair advantage. So thank you for
those insights, Rhea. We appreciate your more expert look at
(48:42):
Rowsy gender and UFC. So with that, if you have
expert views to share with us as well, or just
you know, funny links to send us, Mom, Steve ad
alsap works dot com is where you can email us
and for links all of our social media as well
as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts, including this
one with links force versus so you can see images
of those feminist witches zapping all over town. Head on
(49:05):
over to stuff mom Never Told You dot com for
more on this and thousands of other topics. Isn't how
stuff Works dot com
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