August 22, 2016 • 58 mins
Lisa Frank is a real person, and she has a stable of sad unicorns and wilted rainbows hidden away in her closet. Cristen and Caroline explore Lisa Frank's rise to girlhood fame and descent into corporate chaos.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stup
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about really
important figure in women's history, Lisa Frank. Let's just cut
(00:23):
right to the chase a lot of Yeah, she's important
to a lot of women also men. Yeah. I mean really,
without Lisa Frank, I don't think that we would have
had the kind of gender equitable progress that we have
enjoyed since the late eighties and nineties, because I mean, really,
people underestimate the power of unicorns and golden retrievers with
(00:48):
ice cream cones on trapper keepers to really communicate the
need for intersectional feminism. And I mean, I feel like
you're leaving out a really important figure in all of this,
which is Priscilla, Uh, the white fluffy cat who has
a Tierra Um. I feel like she really further the
cause as well, because women do deserve to buy themselves
(01:10):
whatever jewelry they want, andy fancy feast for dinner, and
if you can sit on a rainbow, I mean, all
the better. I think we're actually getting real Lisa Frank
mixed up with feminist Lisa Frank the Tumbler. Oh is
that not what this is? Or is that what this is?
(01:30):
I don't know. It's all now blending together in a
rainbow nightmare. Well, um, yeah, Feminist Lisa Frank the Tumbler
account was like a huge, massive, hilarious thing not too
long ago, but just as quickly as it emerged from
the rainbow sands of dime and the Internet. Uh, it
(01:53):
got shut down, didn't it? Or or it got slapped
with some sort of like copyright infringement from Lisa Frank.
Lisa Frank was not super happy about the human person
because she's real. Yes, Lisa Frank the person and her
company sent an intellectual copyright infringement notice to Tumbler to
try to get them to shut Feminist Lisa Frank down. Um,
(02:16):
and I even have the wording they used. I love this.
It's it's a very They pulled a really mom move
with this where they say, uh, we at Lisa Frank
aren't upset so much? Is disappointed that you decided to
use Lisa Frank's artwork without asking for her permission? Well, also,
isn't there another part to that quote? Or am I
(02:37):
thinking of an Internet comment which is entirely possible. Didn't
she say something about, like, if you're so big on
supporting women, why are you taking other women's work? Well, yes,
she says, uh, it was particularly ironic that Lisa was
disrespected in this way to deliver a message of respect
for women. And I really really hope that Lisa Frank
(03:00):
herself and not Lisa Frank's like executive assistant wrote this, uh,
this note to tumbler because she does only refer to
herself in third person as Lisa or Lisa Frank. I
I feel like that is my reality, that's my truth. Well,
and it might seem so frivolous for us to devote
(03:21):
an episode to the real Lisa Frank, but a sometimes
we need a little frivolity in our lives. Sometimes we
need some rainbow printed baby cheetahs to brighten our days.
And a lot of people probably don't know that she's
real and she's kind of making a comeback thanks to
(03:43):
nineties nostalgia, well nineties nostalgia. But also there was an
artist who I'm surprised there hasn't been another, uh, third
person Lisa Frank takedown of this, But some artists just
put out Lisa Frank tarot cards and dude, so I
posted it to our sminty tumbler right, like took some
(04:03):
screen grabs of a bunch of the cards, and it's
hilarious because like death is represented by a bunny on
a unicorn, which is like, yeah, I don't get it,
but yes, and uh. Tumbler users converged upon this post
to inform me that these were not, in fact Lisa
(04:24):
Frank tarot cards, but that these images were stolen from
Lisa Frank and that they were created by a third party.
It's not like Lisa Frank was like, you know what,
I'm going to create a tarot deck and it's like thanks, thanks.
Hundreds of people who commented it's kind of surprising that
she doesn't have a tarot deck, because Lisa Frank has
(04:45):
been licensed to so many products, it would only make
sense to just toss a tarot card deck in there. Also,
I am now imagining that all of those tumbler users
who were commenting on that actually just yes, it's all
Lisa Frank. Lisa Frank just spends her days on Tumbler
(05:05):
writing about herself, Lisa on Lisa that's actually her Tumbler name,
and she tracks down anyone who is co opting her
art because she's a serious artist. So she says, um
and so she said, and starts and turn starts a
little uh, a little tumblers fat um. She she is
(05:28):
a real artist, or she's trained as an artist. She's
also she's also a natural businesswoman. That's how she got
into all this stuff. Although I don't know listeners out there,
anyone who's ever worked for Lisa Frank, because there have
been hundreds of you might disagree with my assertion that
she's a natural businesswoman. Yeah, I think she's actually a
terrible business woman. Well, I guess what I should have
(05:50):
said is she naturally has an entrepreneurial spirit. That is
an excellent way to put it. There we go, um,
so should we should we start with baby Unicorn Lisa
when she she was but a full So she did
(06:11):
Lisa and Lisa, by the way, is one of the
best things any Any quotes from Lisa Frank about Lisa
Frank are terrific. So we're going to be direct quoting
a lot throughout this podcast. I'm just picturing, uh, like
a coffee time, Like I'm literally posing the way that
I imagine her to be if she if she had
(06:33):
a tumbler called Lisa and Lisa like head tilt, probably
a bright red blazer with shoulder pads. You know, she's
got the sensible lob haircut with some fluffy bangs, tilted,
tilted head with a head resting on her hands. Would
she have a Lisa Frank coffee mug? Yeah, oh yeah,
with Priscilla on it. Her Persilla Priscilla. Um. And actually,
(06:58):
it's it's worth pointing out. I know that I've like
totally strayed from your Unicorn baby Unicorn Lisa reference, but
it is worth noting that out of all of the
characters in the Lisa Frank universe, Perscilla, the fluffy white
princess cat, is the character that Lisa says she identifies
(07:20):
most with. Yeah, she told Urban Outfitters, Yes that Urban
Outfitters that there's probably a little bit of me in
each character, but she said that she most identifies with
Priscilla because quote, she is very into glam and glitz
and jewelry and everything very girly. Um and I and
(07:42):
I like that she accessorizes Priscilla with versions of Lisa Frank. Actually,
Lisa Frank's own jewelry. Um. But in the same interview,
she notes that she's not a cat person. Yeah, what
so your your internal I don't know what your patronist
is a cat, but you're not a huge fan of cats,
(08:04):
That's what I'm saying. Lisa on Lisa is the best.
She's a conundrum. She is a conundrum. Um. But she
did say that she's always been obsessed with candy in
color always um. And she considers herself, her words, not mine,
a lunatic for detail. She refers to herself as crazy
(08:24):
in various kinds of ways. A lot I will say, well, uh,
being friends with several graphic designers, I know, I've watched
them work, and it can be hard when you're creating something,
a piece of art, whether it's for yourself or for
like a marketing brochure or whatever, to know when to stop.
(08:47):
I mean, I feel like that's something that a lot
of artists deal with within themselves, like that perfectionist tendency
to make your art amazing. I wish that we could
hire Lisa Frank to design marketing brochures for stuff. I've
never told you we need that. What would our animals?
So she's Priscilla what would we be? Oh man, that's
(09:08):
a tough one. I mean could we Could we add
nar walls to the Lisa Frank universe. I think they'd
fit right in. They have horns. Yeah. Um So back
to real Lisa, A little baby unicorn full Lisa. She
grew up in a wealthy Detroit suburb and her father
(09:29):
was an auto industry executive, and she loved drawing as
a kid. But it was sort of sad the way
that her art was fostered during her childhood, because she said,
to keep me quiet, they brought in coloring books and crayons. Hello,
welcome to my childhood. My parents only had one kid.
(09:51):
They wanted me to sit quietly in church. What do
you think they had to do? I don't know. Did
did you color? I colored? Also? Well? I think it
was to keep me from falling asleep in church more
than it was to keep me quiet, because I was
a pretty quiet child. How full circle would it have
been if you had been coloring? Lisa Frank coloring books
and church inception? Not? Well, I mean not not really,
(10:12):
but yeah? Did she she had coloring books? Right? I
don't think I had any of hers. I did have
a new kids on the black coloring book. WHOA hopefully
didn't bring that into church. My goodness, all that all
that sexual tension tempered it with a gem coloring book
as well. Anyway, well, speaking of coloring books, that is
(10:34):
one reason why we're talking about Lisa today because a
little while back it was announced that Lisa Frank was
coming out with an adult coloring book because apparently she
does listen to stuff I've never told you and listened
to our episode on adult coloring books, and the internet
went wild over this coloring book, which I think you
(10:55):
can get it dollar general. I mean, that's the sweet
thing about it. So again entrepreneurial, maybe not businesswoman minded. Well,
you know, maybe a way to think about it, as
she's a woman of the people. Populist coloring book, populist
coloring books, you can get it at all our general.
Communist she just one or the other communist Lisa kitten
(11:19):
like a kitten with a little cap on and like
a chisel carrying the side. Oh man, um, well, maybe
maybe communist Lisa Frank is turning her back on her
she she upbringing because she did attend the Tony Cranbrooks
School where both Mitt and and Romney graduated and also
(11:42):
Selma Blair. So there you go hashtag cruel intentions. Um, well,
it seems like her entrepreneurial spirit really kicked off with
a high school art show where she sold three thousand
dollars worth of original Lisa Frank's that's pretty impress of
considering I made no money on my art. Well, and
(12:03):
who wasn't who was buying? I mean, wasn't it? Wasn't
it lee Ia Coca Chrysler executive lee Ia Cocava. Yeah,
I read that and was like, and man, this lady
had a much different school experience than I did. Well,
once she made these thousands of dollars, her dad was like, Okay, Lisa,
(12:26):
I'm not really going to pay for anything anymore. You're
making commissions off your art so well. I mean, it's
interesting the way she talks about her dad and in
the few interviews that she's done, because she clearly like
he was a major influence on her. She talks so
proudly about when he chose to display some of her
(12:47):
pieces in his collection on the walls of their stately,
their stately estate. I don't know, um, but she's like,
you know, he wouldn't just do that to like make
me happy or show that he loved me. Uh, he
did it because I was worth it, or maybe that's
just my interpretation. Lisa and Lisa, Yeah, I believe it. Um. Well,
(13:09):
after her dad kicked her off the family doll essentially,
she studied at University of Arizona, pursuing art and math.
Hey hey there's stem fields um and the steams. There
you go. Yeah, she was totally steam full seam the head.
But and her first business was buying Native American pottery
(13:35):
and jewelry, taking them back to Michigan and then selling
them at a mark up. Yeah. And so she starts
representing these artists and ends up taking requests from customers
I guess back in the Midwest, Uh, delivering those requests
to the artists. And she's like, oh wait a second, Like,
(13:58):
if I'm the middle woman, why can't I do this myself? Yeah? So,
at age twenty, she started a plastic jewelry line called
Sticky finger which I googled. I was desperately trying to
find images of Sticky Fingers jewelry and I couldn't so disappointing. Internet,
Come on, Internet, I know, don't you get disappointed on
(14:18):
the Internet when it just will not you know, it
doesn't have some something like Lisa Franks original Jewelry jeweled
seriously technology, Well that's just it to me. I was
just surprised that I couldn't find anything definite. I mean,
there were like things tagged jewelry Lisa Frank whatever. But like,
(14:39):
I was disappointed because you would think that with how
much cultural cache Lisa Frank holds, especially for people all right,
that the Internet would be covered in in jewelry sleuths
trying to find her early stuff. Well, I bet it's
because only until recently have more people started to figure
out that she is real and just as a trademark. Yeah. Um,
(15:04):
but sticky Fingers was very successful. She ended up selling
it Nemon's and Bloomingdale's and she she was basically living
like every real housewife's dream. Because I feel like there
is a real housewife in every city who tries to
launch something akin to a plastic jewelry line. I'm sure
(15:25):
much much more. No, what are you gonna do all
day other than just sit by the pool? You gonna
launch a jewelry line, get your glue sticks? And I
offended a lot of listeners right there. I'm sorry. People
who have jewelry lines, I'm like, I'm sure it's amazing,
and you do make them by the pool. But young
Lisa could not be contained to just jewelry. The whole
(15:50):
jewelry business. Turned her attention to stickers and buttons, and
she says that she first got the rights for Betty Boop,
Popeye and Mighty Mouse, and she says, quote, I would
put like Betty Boop on a unicorn, and that like
is part of the quote. Yes, uh, and I love
(16:11):
that and I want to see that because why wouldn't
you want to see Betty Boop on a unicorn? But
also there's that young Lisa entrepreneurial spirit again, where you know,
she's what twenty here? What was I doing at twenty
just being drunk somewhere at college? And here's Lisa Frank like,
oh well, nobody's really licensing these images from years past,
(16:32):
you know, pop culture of yore. Why don't I do
that and put it on stuff that you can put
on yourself and put those characters on unicorns. Even though
in this very recent interview with Foundations magazine that I
was thrilled to find she said at first, I didn't
(16:53):
want to do unicorns. The artist in me said no.
Then I thought, wait a minute, this is commercial art.
Let's do what's gonna sell. Well, that's right. Wasn't that
part of her whole deal? When she was working with
the Native American artists and their turquoise jewelry, didn't she
start making some of her own or people were putting
(17:14):
in requests for those artists to make unicorns and hearts
and stuff. Well, she came up with those requests. She
had the hunch of what would sell because she had been,
you know, selling to these people. So she went back
to the artisans. And I've got to say, Lisa past
Lisa nineteen seventies, Lisa, there was nothing wrong with unicorns.
Oh no, not at all. As a child, I was obsessed.
(17:37):
It really launched a whole empire for her um and
with that by putting by putting these Betty Boops and
Papa's on unicorns and putting those on stickers, she gets
her first contract with Spencer's Gifts. Love It. When was
the last time he thought of a Spencer's Gifts? When
I was reading for this episode, whenever I hear about
(18:01):
Spencer's Gifts, uh, because it happened so often, you know. Um.
But whenever I think of that store, I just think
of the smell of incense, lava lamps, black light posters,
like the back of the store that had like weed
and boobs on things where you had to be eighteen.
(18:21):
So many key chains. We gotta go back to Spencer.
There is one at the mall around here somewhere, heavens.
But she also ran into her first business downturn when
there was a sticker slump in the night. I kid
you not, I know that was I read that little tidbit,
(18:41):
that historical tidbit. I had no idea about the massive
stick or slump of the nineties. I want to say
that that was one a little line in a piece
in time about her. I didn't mean for that to
rhyme there you go. Yeah, No, I mean, I just
I guess it's hard for me to imagine because I
had so many stickers when I was growing up, and
(19:01):
I was born in the eighties, as were you, So
it was it wasn't you bringing the sticker slump on?
Sure you were. You were supporting big sticker. Sally was like,
let's get this kid more stickers to shut her up.
I don't know. It is worth noting, though, that the
unicorn was not the only one of her like very
(19:23):
original designs that might be familiar to listeners. The classic
bubble gum machine was also there from the beginning because,
yet again bringing her dad into the picture, she said
she was inspired to do all the bubble gum stuff
because of an antique gumball machine her dad gave her.
(19:44):
And then she's like, in the same interview, she's like, Okay,
you know when you like something and then people pick
up on that you like it, and then they get
it for you, Like I have so many gumball machines
because everybody knows I love gumballs. Oh my god. So
I just imagine her house was just overrun with gumball
machine man probably dolls. I don't know. I can only imagine. Um.
(20:06):
I did, though, receive as a birthday gift some Lisa
Frank stationary when I was a kid. I had it too.
I treasured it and one of the sheets had the
gumball machine motif and I loved it. I'm pretty sure
I had the one with a unicorn on the top
of it. Mine was a variety pack and I would
(20:31):
take it out every now and then and not right
on it because I had to say it for a
special occasion. I would just flip through all of the
you know, the different designs and just marvel at them,
at her art, at her art. You were a Lisa
Frank collector, just like her dad. Yeah, I mean. And
(20:51):
this would have been around the time when she'd gotten
through the sticker slump and the Lisa Frank salad days
had arrived. In Time magazine, the very Time magazine that
mentioned the sticker slump, reported that the Lisa Frank office
received thousands of letters from girls all the time asking
(21:13):
whether Lisa Frank is real, and they dubbed her the
Queen of Stickers. Interesting, the Queen of stickers that I
thought that was my title, but that's fine. Um. Yeah.
They wrote that the company expected to sell twenty million
items that year, including three and a half million stickers,
doubling the previous year's sales, and Lisa, in her interview
(21:37):
with Time magazine said, our company is more of an
artistic passion than just a business. And that's the thing
I feel like. Lisa has always maintained the concept of
Lisa as more of an artist than like a commercial saleswoman.
Maybe that's why she has six people working for her
now as opposed to like six hundred from back in
(22:01):
the day. Yeah. So, in its late nineties peak, the
company was making around sixty million dollars a year um
and she had big plans at this time, including a
Lisa Frank theme park on it, so it would be
called the Fantastic World of Lisa Frank. There was also
(22:21):
a TV show and adult apparel that she wanted to
get into. How adult are we talking? Were talking like
Lisa Frank lingerie. I think we're talking adult as in
like large, you know, human adult people's sizes, rather than
adult people underwear, although I'd wear it if it were
if it were a good quality There you go. I'm
(22:42):
just gonna go ahead and put in that request, just
float that out in the universe that if anybody selling
high quality Lisa Frank underpants, I'm down here. You go
down to clown. But then once the New Millennium arrived,
Lisa started to fall on tough times again, so in
(23:03):
two thousand one, the company had to pay thirty thou
dollars to the FEC for collecting kids personal information online.
I mean who even knows how the internet works, right,
Like Lisa's like here, kiddies, like fill in all of
these boxes with your information and your mother's maiden name. Yeah,
joined the online Lisa Frank fan club, the Army, the
(23:26):
righteous Army of Lisa Frank. Um. Yeah. So yeah, they
got a little trouble for that, and that could be
one of the reasons behind why it can be so
hard to get Lisa Frank merch on the internet. Now, yeah,
they think that that kind of made them skittish about
getting into online retail. But that was certainly not the
company's death knell, because three years later, in two thousand four, Uh,
(23:50):
there's a twenty fifth anniversary story in the Arizona Star
that reported Lisa Frank Inc. Was selling one hundred million
items per week, including twenty three million pencils f y
I um, and the company also boasted a magazine at
the time and their fan club where they were collecting
(24:10):
all these children's information without their parental consent. That good
little Lisa Frank Communist army. I know there were one
hundred thousand members, you know, so really she did have
a little army going and speaking to the newspaper James Green,
who was the CEO and Lisa Frank's husband at the time,
said we feel like we're in a dream making company. Um,
(24:35):
which is well, that's great until you know, like hundreds
of people got laid off, and Lisa Frank was like,
you know, it's fine. I'm tough but nice. Yeah, I
mean there's yeah, this this kind of glowing feature piece
in The Arizona Star just mentioned as a side now
that there had been some downsizing at Lisa Frank UM.
(24:59):
And I largely blame I mean, yes, Lisa Frank, but
also James Green. Yeah. This guy sounds like he is
the absolute worst. And I say is because if you
look at his current company, he still looks like he's
the worst. He converted from Judaism to Christianity, supposedly and
now sells like all of this Christian swag. And it's
(25:21):
so funny to look at the comments under stories about it,
because everybody who has worked for Lisa and James is like,
ain't no way, ain't no way. But yeah, he he
started out at Lisa Frank Inc. Working under Lisa Frank
as a graphic designer right or as an artist. Yeah,
So he was hired in nine two as the company's
(25:41):
first in house illustrator. UM and things got hot and
heavy up in that that unicorn office. UM. So Frank
and Green strike up a romance and what do you know,
Green zooms right up the corporate ladder and she names
him president of the company. Two years later, they get
(26:06):
married and they buy a garish Tucson mansion with a
private jet, which I can only hope has Lisa Frank
characters and blazoned across it. There there is this house
in Marietta, Georgia, um, really Nearrow where I grew up.
That is bright pink stucco. It has a pond out
(26:32):
front with a fountain like one of those giant like
spews water straight up in the air from the middle
of the pond geyser fountains basically, and a giant swan
paddle boat. And that's just what I pictured when I
think about Lisa Frank's house, because it has to be pink, right. Oh, yeah,
(26:55):
I'm gonna I'm just gonna say that it is. I've
also driven by that house. I know exactly the house
that you're talking about, and yeah, I love that. You
know what else it is? Yeah? How could how could
anyone forget that the pink house with the swan paddle
boat in front of it. Listeners are like, what are
they talking about? Um? Also quick side question, who do
(27:17):
you think would play James Green in a movie? And
I only asked the cruise Oh yeah, tell well, James
Green is of um shorter stature hashtag. Not that there's
anything wrong with that um. But to me, like reading
all of these articles and research about Lisa and James
(27:38):
and how he sounds terrible, but also like how almost
obsessed she is with her father and his role in
her career and her background and everything. I get the
impression that like she was Katie Holmes to James Green's
Tom Cruise. Yeah, like some there was some sort of
like early life pattern volving around men. It was clearly
(28:01):
set up. And then she ends up with James Green
and he's probably a master manipulator, because how else do
you like wind up with the CTRE and not the
CEO but the founder of the company who then like
makes you the CEO and president and all the meanwhile
you're a big old jerk. Well, and he doesn't sound
like a jerk so far, you know, Like right now,
(28:23):
it's they're living in their their pink Tucson mansion with
the swan paddle boat. We can only imagine things seem happy,
go lucky. Lisa has some kids. She's like, you know what,
I'm just gonna step back from daily operations. I just
want to focus on raising the kids. By the way,
(28:43):
James Green here is a forty nine percent stock share
in my company. I think they were the only two
stockholders in Lisa Frank Inc. Sounds like a bad idea.
UM side note, her kids were named Hunter and Forest.
Keep in mind their last name is Green, Hunter Green
and Forest Green. And they, of course, because Lisa bases
(29:06):
her characters on either herself or people in her life.
UM and she uh created a leopard cub and a
tiger cub named Hunter in Forest in honor of her
son's I do love that leopard cub. The leopard cub
is cute. It's very cute. But what is not cute
is what's about to happen with James Green. We're going
(29:29):
to talk about that when we come right back from
a quick break. So, Caroline, I think that this might
be one of the gossipyist is that a word episodes
(29:49):
of stuff I've never told you this just just reads
like a tabloid. Well, yeah, because Lisa and particularly James
have been so private, relatively private. Um, And so what
you end up hearing and reading is reports from former
Lisa frank ankle workers, and those reports are not exactly glowing. Yeah,
(30:16):
so um in Tracy Igan Morrissey, who was then a
writer for Jezebel, wrote this piece that I highly recommend
listeners read called Inside the Rainbow Gulag the Technicolor Rise
and Fall of Lisa Frank in which she kind of
reveals the house of horrors that was and still kind
(30:40):
of is. It sounds like working at Lisa Frank. She
interviewed a former illustrator named Jacob who was there for
four years, who said, of course, from the outside it's colorful.
You've got the rainbow, the stars, the hearts on the building,
the statue of the panda. But inside it was like
an abusive alcoholic holme see oh, and I was haven't
(31:02):
trust me. I was having flashbacks to my first job
that I had when I moved to Atlanta, when I
worked And you can go back and listen to our
psychopath episode in which I might insinuate a few things Um.
But yeah, when you work for like a literally crazy
set of people. Um. And again, I'm not saying that
(31:24):
Lisa Frank and or James Green literally had mental problems,
although it sounds like there were some, like I said,
unhappy patterns. It is like working for an abusive alcoholic. Yeah.
I mean she developed a reputation as the worst employer
in Tucson because of the hostile work environment, and there
(31:45):
were so many allegations of verbal abuse. Uh. Caroline not
not named not you M a Tucson resident who considered
applying at Lisa Frank because apparently, there Lisa Frank is
always hiring, because Lisa franc is always firing. Um. So
she told Jezebel every person who ever worked there seemed
to have a case of PTSD from it, rainbow goulog
(32:08):
is really an apt description. Yeah. And James Green in
particular was super prone to being verbally abusive to workers.
He had all of these outbursts and fits of rage,
maybe fists of rage as well, but particularly fits of rage.
And he specifically like would not learn new employees names
(32:29):
so he can make up nicknames for them, which just
makes me think of like an even worse doctor House.
I don't get that references. I've never I've never watched
House such a good show, although it does get a
little um repetitive, but he calls his like residents or
interns or whatever. Just the number. Oh, like Olivia wild
character was six, I think, um yeah. Not helping matters
(32:52):
was that he was allegedly on lots and lots of cocine. Uh.
And that's something that Lisa Frank of late has been
like everybody thinks I'm on drugs just because I paint
like psychedelic unicorns. Well Lisa wasn't even in the office
around this time. Well yeah, she would only pop her
head in every once in a while. But who was
(33:13):
there was this woman Rhonda Rowlet, which that doesn't even
sound real, but she was supposedly Green's work mistress, and
now they run that weird like fake Christian merchandise company.
Rhonda runs it with him. Yeah. So Rhonda I believe
was his Was she his executive assistant or another sea
(33:36):
level she was. I don't think she was the assistant.
I think she was another manager. So the way former
Rainbow goolog employees would tell it, James and Ronda would
just do mountains of cocaine and burst out of the
office just yelling at people. See okay, side note, you
didn't watch Vinyl? Did you know? It's all right? It
(33:58):
got it probably got canceled for a reason. But I
would be much more inclined to watch it if instead
of having the record company executive do mounds of cocaine
and run around yelling at musicians, if it was Lisa
Frank's ex husband, if it was Lisa Frank and or
her husband and or his mistress like running around the
(34:18):
Lisa Frank headquarters yelling at people, I'd watched that. Maybe
if it was like a TV movie, I'd watch it
instead of Vinyl would be just called stickers. Stickers, um,
But I mean in terms of the hostile work environment
that Green and Roll it reinforced. There were these spoken
(34:39):
and unspoken rules, such as co workers not really being
allowed to speak to each other. That wasn't very cool.
Phone calls were recorded, No outside visitors were allowed in.
They offered no sick days. I see, I literally feel
like you're describing my first job in Atlanta. Anyway, go on,
you didn't have sick days. M Taking them was fround upon.
(35:01):
Our internet use was tracked we weren't allowed to talk
to each other. Keep going. Well, if you were taking
a sick day and you were chit chatting a little
too much with your neighbor, you might be called out
in the bi monthly Frankly Speaking, which was the office
newsletter that Lisa and James, I guess kind of co authored,
(35:25):
where they would passive aggressively be like, frankly speaking, Susan
and accounting should really find a new line of work
at my job. Like past regressive emails did go out
like and the company was so small that you knew
if somebody had done something, and so like an email
would go out and be like, by the way, you know,
(35:47):
for anyone who is considering using the last of the
k cups in the kitchen, it might be up to
you next time to refill them. Frankly speaking, it would
be thoughtful. I'll so huge missed opportunity that Lisa frank
did not start a talk show called Frankly Speaking, because
(36:07):
I would watch at least a few minutes of that.
At least I would watch minutes whole minutes well, and
these employees, of course, would try to get out of
the company. But severance packages and final paychecks were often withheld,
and all of us added up to extremely high turnover. Yeah,
(36:28):
they would. They would fight like people in unemployment. They yeah,
which as did my former company. Um yeah, so it's
your old boss, Lisa, Frank, I'm starting to think so
I'm starting well, maybe maybe James Green h was cross
dressing as my former boss. Um. The plot thickens, seriously.
(36:48):
The plot thickens well, not so surprisingly, Frank and Green
divorce in two thousand five, and Lisa reclaims her spot
as CEO, and apparently, according to some of the people
who had worked there leading up for like years leading
up to the divorce, she'd pull people aside in these
really awkward moments and be like, hey, so, like if
(37:12):
James and I got a divorce, like, would you come
work for me or would you stay with him? Oh? Yeah,
they made all their employees pick sides. Well, and that
was after so when she filed for divorce, that's when
Green went into overdrive and was like cornering people at
the office saying things like, um, you know you're gonna
work for me, right, and just being really super paranoid
(37:33):
and um possessive, grinding his teeth cocaine wringing his nose. Um.
I really hope that they hashed out some of their
feelings too, in really contentious issues of frankly speaking, well,
James Green and his CEO column would be like frankly speaking,
(37:54):
my my wife should find a new place to live. Um.
Once the divorce, though, happened and Lisa took over as CEO,
it's not like she developed the company. I mean she
spent the next three years on nine lawsuits involving James Green,
Rhonda Rowlett, and Lisa Frank the company because Frank and
(38:18):
Green were the only stockholders in the company, and also
James Green's lawyers tried to allege that Lisa had created
the hostile work environment, forcing employees to choose. Quote, this
is a quote from the lawyer which side their bread
is buttered on? Like, I mean, this is stranger than fiction.
(38:38):
You couldn't write this stuff. I know, it's so weird
and it is gossipy because it's kind of nuts. Um.
And but but anyway, like that makes since then, why
you haven't been able to go get those coloring books
and tarot cards and whatever the past ten years because
Lisa was busy. Yeah, Lisa was getting busy reclaiming her life,
(39:02):
getting things back together, although not really because as of December,
annual revenue was down to just over two million dollars
and all of the retail stores had closed. Corporate employees
dropped from three fifty to six. Where were these retail stores.
I have a feeling that was back in the nineties.
I don't remember them in any of the the American
(39:26):
malls that I frequented. Well, maybe we didn't live in
fancy enough cities, oh you know, but yeah, there were
definitely retail stores. Um. There was that old commercial starring
Milacunas where she she's like, Lisa Frank is the best,
and then she does a spin and I think it
is magically transformed into a penguin. She's magically transported. I
(39:48):
should have said to the Lisa Frank store that's just
filled with Lisa Frank. Sorry, my my imaginary commercials way better.
I would love to see Milacunas spin and trans were
I at Lisa Frank penguin, not even young me. Lacuna
is just like, now why not? Why not? She can
take Ashton Kutture with her, and then you've got the
(40:09):
massive Lisa Frank headquarters building in Tucson, which used to
house all of those hundreds of people and now only
holds like six in a room. They might be chained
to their desks, We're not sure. Um, but as of
despite the fact that there's like a handful of humans
in the building, they still have those giant Lisa franc
(40:29):
three dimensional statues as opposed to flat statues, including the
giant unicorn that stands at the entrance to the headquarters,
although apparently it's horn is missing. Yeah, I mean to me,
that just crystallizes the demise of the company. If a
Lisa Frank unicorn horn is missing, you know, like that's
(40:51):
like the given up. It's like the movie Legend. Anybody,
I'm getting none of your pop culture pop culture references
episode people who Yeah it was. It's a super nerd
movie also starring Tom Cruise. He's like twenty in that movie.
He wears the little Sassy outfit. I gotta watch this,
(41:12):
also starring Mia Sarah and a pair of unicorns. Tim
Curry is the Devil. It's real good. I don't know,
but I own I own it, like the special edition
on DVD. Oh man, I know what I'm doing. This afternoon. Um,
it is leaving work watching Legend. Don't tell my boss
so good. Um. But it's not like Lisa Frank hasn't
(41:33):
tried to breathe new life into her merchandise. In they
debuted a line of characters that looked a lot like
Brats Dolls, that's brats with a Z, that had the
you know, like the big eyes and the bubble heads
and the big lips, and like sexy bodies. And there
(41:54):
was a writer who had stumbled across these sexy Lisa
characters with names like Razzle, Dazzle and uh jelly Bean.
I don't know, and I know they did have ridiculous names.
And she was so distraught because she raised a good
point that one of the best things about Lisa Frank
(42:18):
was that it was all animals and inanimate objects, you know,
like there was no room for negative self comparison. You
just had this imaginary world where you could twirl and
become a penguin if you wanted to, or you know,
reach up in the air and grab a flying hot
dog and eat it. I was totally not expecting, but
(42:42):
I love it. Um. Sounds like a dream world. Um.
And plus, you know, Lisa Frank's drawings meant so much too. Kids.
They were so brightly, brightly colored. And and who doesn't love,
like you said, a golden retriever. You some ice cream,
even though it's really bad for dogs, don't do that? Um?
(43:05):
You know who who wouldn't be attracted to that? And
we haven't even mentioned the dolphins. I know the dolphins
and the rainbow water well. And and that was one
thing that I was hoping to find but couldn't, which
was a little academic analysis of of the appeal of
Lisa Frank because it was so specific and so strong,
(43:27):
and just remembering how I would sit there for god
knows how long, just staring at stationary Yeah, what was
it like? What was so magical about it? To you?
There was just something very special about it. And I
did appreciate the overt girl nous of it. Um And
(43:49):
I don't know, it was just like I guess it was.
There was that element of fantasy as well, where she
kind of presented in uh, just I pop way all
of my favorite things minus cheetah print. I wasn't super
into the cheetah print, but you know, like gumball machines,
(44:09):
those were cool puppies, I'll take them, dolphins, I'll ride one. Um. Yeah,
and this is sort of this sort of gets back
to what I wanted to hit on in our Children's
Imagination episode that we did about a year ago. Um,
there is something about those bright colors and those shiny
(44:30):
like everything was made to look almost plastic in these
two dimensional drawings. And so what I was also curious
about back in that episode two was like, why when
you're a child and you look at something, does it
leap off the page and seems so real and fantastical
and amazing, And you can look at the same drawing
(44:51):
as an adult and be like, oh, it's just like
a purple cat or whatever, because life makes you cynical. Yeah,
And I don't know what it is like. But you know,
I did some reading on children and colors trying to
figure out, you know, two children look at and and
feel about colors differently than grown ups do and and
(45:13):
not really, It's just that children are very attracted to bright, vibrant,
supersaturated colors, and you know, they have a different favorite
color every week, depending on what they want their identity
to be. Um. But I I couldn't really hit on
anything that made it clear why children would be so
(45:34):
obsessed with Lisa Frank, do you think that for girls
in particular, because clearly this was marketed and consumed largely
by girls. Do you think there was also the element
of just unabashed appreciation of girly nests. Yeah. And and
cute Yeah, like like no shame in that cute game,
(45:56):
you know, like they're I wonder if that's part of
it too, But I mean, I think that clearly what
we're saying is that our listeners who are in academia
have a job to do. Absolutely. Um, I would actually
pay the premium to read that paper on one of
(46:16):
those academic journal websites to have the paywalls. I'd pay it. Yeah,
I read it. I'd read more than the abstract. UM.
I do want to put this out there though, Lisa
on Lisa before we wrap up this episode, because UM,
I don't want to entirely disparage you know, Lisa's vision,
because she still takes it very seriously and you can
(46:40):
tell in this Foundation's magazine interview, which is focused on
her art, her as an artist in particular, that, um
that she is really passionate about about her work. I
mean her. She does say that her artspirations include Jasper John's,
(47:01):
Margaret Keene, Davis Cone, Peter Max. I mean she she
has an art history like knowledge and appreciation. Um. And
she said, my true passion is art. So I don't
want to just put trash out there, right, but I
think that in the process of selling all those licensing rights,
(47:23):
Lisa's put some trash out there. Oh, I know. Well, so,
but we can still enjoy her. Oh, we can absolutely
still enjoy her. I mean, just but learning the soap
opera behind the merchandise that I think was a hallmark
of a lot of nineties kids, childhoods, the dark story
(47:49):
behind the rainbow animals. Yeah, it's like revealing the dark
corners of the unicorn stalls and the bubblegum machines that
are act They just filled with poison, emotional poison, a
lot of emotional and cocaine. I'm so glad she and
James got divorced, I know. And and here's the thing, Um,
(48:12):
she rarely does interviews. She only did that interview with
Urban Outfitters that we referenced earlier in the podcast, because briefly,
I think it was in two thousand thirteen, She did
a licensing deal with Urban and they sold some some
nostalgia merge um, but I think that fizzled pretty quickly.
(48:33):
She has a reputation not only to be difficult to
work with in house, but also contractually. She gets kind
of flighty. Yeah. I think she sounds like um, an
artist entrepreneur who probably needs a good um stable of
(48:54):
business people around her who get the mission, get the gist,
and will actually maybe be the buffer. Sounds like her
and everyone else. It sounds like you are writing yourself
a little cover letter there, Caroline Lisa Frank I heard
you're crazy. No, But the thing is, I mean, how
it's got to be hard no matter who you are,
(49:16):
too long term capitalized on like a retail fad. Yeah,
I mean, how far can you ride that unicorn? I
don't know. Does it have wings twist? I don't know.
I mean, I think nostalgia. Nostalgia will get you pretty
far for a little bit. But I do think the
(49:37):
fact that she has like literally been unable to saturate
the market in the past twenty years for the best part,
has like kept her. It's kept people wanting more. Oh yeah,
I mean, and just judging by the response to that
coloring book, which was picked up by every internet outlet.
(49:58):
It seems like I'm going to get one. The news
went viral. Get yourself to Dollar General, Girl, pick you up.
But they're already out. I saw a photo of one
um online, so definitely by the time this podcast is airing,
they should be out. Well, you know, I've got a
vacation coming up. Maybe I can get a coloring book
(50:18):
instead of reading adult books with words like adult books
as in grown up, or adult books as in your
your mom's romance novels. Anyway, so I can't wait to
hear from listeners. Yes both. So what are our final
thoughts on Lisa frank You know, I mean I I
(50:42):
you know, as much reading as we did, and as
much as I completely empathize with the abused workers of
Lisa frank Ink like, I feel that there's a little
soft spot for Lisa herself because she just wanted to
follow that rainbow dream and and she got mixed up
with a bad guy along the way and made some
(51:05):
not so great business decisions. I do wish she would
learn her lesson, though, and be nicer to employees and
companies that she's working with. Yeah, but I don't know,
Maybe maybe we're being selfish and wanting more from Lisa
than Lisa has to give Lisa and Lisa, I mean
frankly speaking with that, listeners, Yeah, get us out of here.
(51:31):
Know that that was the perfect way to segue to
asking listeners for their Lisa Frank thoughts. Does anyone have
a theory on the appeal of Lisa Frank? Is anyone
else excited to get that coloring book? And has anyone
else worked for Lisa franc or know someone who has
worked for Lisa Franca has a story to share, Please
email us everything mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
(51:52):
com is our email address. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff podcast or message us on Facebook and
we've got a couple of messages to share with you
when we come right back from a quick break. So,
Kristen and I have been pretty open on the podcast
about our struggles with adult acne, and that's why we
are so excited to get our bio Clarity products. And
(52:15):
what's most fun is using their restored gills. So it's
green because it's derived from plants, but it is super
soothing to our skin. So what is this bio Clarity
we're talking about well. Bioclarity is a totally new acne
treatment designed specifically for young adult skin that is naturally better.
It's clinically proven to clear up acne blemishes and help
(52:37):
maintain clear confidence skin. They even did a clinical trial
to prove that before going ahead with their product launch.
And about that product. Bio Clarity is a three step
cleansing system that starts with a rich foaming cleanser, a
step to gel treatment to attack bacteria that caused acne,
(52:58):
and then step three a restora gel that Caroline and
I just can't get enough of. Yeah, so step one
you wash away dirt, oil and pollutants with that cleanser,
Step to the gel contains antioxidants and attacks bacteria that
cause acne, and step three that restored gel with flora
lux helps reduce redness, the size of pores, and soothe
(53:20):
the skin. So what are you waiting for? Get on
your way toward clearer skin today by going to bio
clarity dot com. Stuff mom never told you. Listeners can
get their first month for only nine that's the twenty
dollar savings and it comes with a one ent risk
free money back guarantee. But you need to enter our
(53:41):
code stuff. That's bio clarity dot com and enter code stuff.
Don't wait. Go to bioclarity dot com today and now
back to the show. Well, I have a letter here
from Marin in response to our library arian two parter.
(54:02):
Maren says librarians hold a special place in my heart
as I worked at a library in high school and
my boss was a kick ass librarian. Incidentally, she was
an older, unmarried woman, but a far cry from the
spinster librarian stereotype. I did do some shelving and circulation
desk work, but mainly I helped plan and run summer
book clubs for teens along with many other events, put
(54:24):
together book lists for different subjects, and research titles for
new acquisition. It was definitely the best job ever. Something
I didn't know until I started that job, and something
I was a little surprised y'all didn't mention when talking
about the librarianship being at the intersection of a service
job and a profession, is that library science is a
master's degree. These women and men go through some pretty
(54:46):
specialized training, but most people are unaware that it requires
a specific degree. Interestingly, in undergrad I ended up taking
a children's literature elective through the Library Science grad School
Department at my college, and it was by SAT on
child psychology and literacy and geared towards those striving to
become librarians at elementary schools or children's librarians at public libraries. Currently,
(55:09):
I'm in medical school and most of our librarians work
with digital information, helping us navigate science and medical journals
and evidence based medicine websites and apps. It's remarkable to
see the breadth of work there is for librarians and
how they have adapted their knowledge on information to the
modern age. However, we do have a more traditional librarian
who runs the physical library on campus and deals with
(55:31):
the old school books. Hilariously. She is the literal opposite
of a Madam Pince esque librarian harping its students to
be quiet. Instead, she always speaks extremely loudly, either on
the phone or to other people, even though it's a
silent library usually full of students studying. Insert laugh cry
(55:52):
emoji here. Please keep doing what you do, and Marin says,
ps Kristen, I am so excited that you're watching Buffy
the Vampire Slayer for the first time. I have to
admit I do have a bit of a crush on Giles. Yeah,
Giles is handsome. Weren't sure. I have a letter here
from another librarian, Natasha, who writes, I've often felt the
(56:12):
field of librarianship gets a bad rap because a lot
of people don't really understand what we do as a profession.
I've often received comments from our patrons who are surprised
that we have to get a master's degree to work
as librarians. They believe all we do is sit at
a desk and tell people where the restroom is. The
worst comments are people who ask us why we're still
relevant since Google exists, which brings me to why I
(56:35):
write well. I appreciated the time you spent on the
history of librarianship. I felt you were a little lacking
on some of the current trends in libraries and where
we are as a profession. For instance, librarians are at
the forefront of fighting for freedom of information, fair use,
and open access. We're also wrestling with the concept of
information literacy and how to teach individuals how to navigate
(56:57):
the web of information without getting lost as researchers. I'm
sure you're both aware of how difficult it can be
to ascertain the differences between good and bad sources, librarians
are working on providing tools to the public to figure
out the difference between the two. I truly believe libraries
are one of the last democratic institutions on Earth where
(57:17):
anyone from any background can learn and grow in a
non judgmental, open environment. We librarians work very hard to
continue to keep it that way and improving on many
diversity issues. I truly appreciated that you both took two
episodes to provide some insight for those who aren't as
familiar with libraries. Well, thank you so much for sharing that, Natasha,
(57:39):
and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff
at how stuff works dot com is our email address
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with
our sources, so you can learn more if you want
to about Lisa Frank, head on over to stuff Mom
Never Told You dot com or more on this and
(58:03):
thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com.
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from how stup
works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about really
important figure in women's history, Lisa Frank. Let's just cut
(00:23):
right to the chase a lot of Yeah, she's important
to a lot of women also men. Yeah. I mean really,
without Lisa Frank, I don't think that we would have
had the kind of gender equitable progress that we have
enjoyed since the late eighties and nineties, because I mean, really,
people underestimate the power of unicorns and golden retrievers with
(00:48):
ice cream cones on trapper keepers to really communicate the
need for intersectional feminism. And I mean, I feel like
you're leaving out a really important figure in all of this,
which is Priscilla, Uh, the white fluffy cat who has
a Tierra Um. I feel like she really further the
cause as well, because women do deserve to buy themselves
(01:10):
whatever jewelry they want, andy fancy feast for dinner, and
if you can sit on a rainbow, I mean, all
the better. I think we're actually getting real Lisa Frank
mixed up with feminist Lisa Frank the Tumbler. Oh is
that not what this is? Or is that what this is?
(01:30):
I don't know. It's all now blending together in a
rainbow nightmare. Well, um, yeah, Feminist Lisa Frank the Tumbler
account was like a huge, massive, hilarious thing not too
long ago, but just as quickly as it emerged from
the rainbow sands of dime and the Internet. Uh, it
(01:53):
got shut down, didn't it? Or or it got slapped
with some sort of like copyright infringement from Lisa Frank.
Lisa Frank was not super happy about the human person
because she's real. Yes, Lisa Frank the person and her
company sent an intellectual copyright infringement notice to Tumbler to
try to get them to shut Feminist Lisa Frank down. Um,
(02:16):
and I even have the wording they used. I love this.
It's it's a very They pulled a really mom move
with this where they say, uh, we at Lisa Frank
aren't upset so much? Is disappointed that you decided to
use Lisa Frank's artwork without asking for her permission? Well, also,
isn't there another part to that quote? Or am I
(02:37):
thinking of an Internet comment which is entirely possible. Didn't
she say something about, like, if you're so big on
supporting women, why are you taking other women's work? Well, yes,
she says, uh, it was particularly ironic that Lisa was
disrespected in this way to deliver a message of respect
for women. And I really really hope that Lisa Frank
(03:00):
herself and not Lisa Frank's like executive assistant wrote this, uh,
this note to tumbler because she does only refer to
herself in third person as Lisa or Lisa Frank. I
I feel like that is my reality, that's my truth. Well,
and it might seem so frivolous for us to devote
(03:21):
an episode to the real Lisa Frank, but a sometimes
we need a little frivolity in our lives. Sometimes we
need some rainbow printed baby cheetahs to brighten our days.
And a lot of people probably don't know that she's
real and she's kind of making a comeback thanks to
(03:43):
nineties nostalgia, well nineties nostalgia. But also there was an
artist who I'm surprised there hasn't been another, uh, third
person Lisa Frank takedown of this, But some artists just
put out Lisa Frank tarot cards and dude, so I
posted it to our sminty tumbler right, like took some
(04:03):
screen grabs of a bunch of the cards, and it's
hilarious because like death is represented by a bunny on
a unicorn, which is like, yeah, I don't get it,
but yes, and uh. Tumbler users converged upon this post
to inform me that these were not, in fact Lisa
(04:24):
Frank tarot cards, but that these images were stolen from
Lisa Frank and that they were created by a third party.
It's not like Lisa Frank was like, you know what,
I'm going to create a tarot deck and it's like thanks, thanks.
Hundreds of people who commented it's kind of surprising that
she doesn't have a tarot deck, because Lisa Frank has
(04:45):
been licensed to so many products, it would only make
sense to just toss a tarot card deck in there. Also,
I am now imagining that all of those tumbler users
who were commenting on that actually just yes, it's all
Lisa Frank. Lisa Frank just spends her days on Tumbler
(05:05):
writing about herself, Lisa on Lisa that's actually her Tumbler name,
and she tracks down anyone who is co opting her
art because she's a serious artist. So she says, um
and so she said, and starts and turn starts a
little uh, a little tumblers fat um. She she is
(05:28):
a real artist, or she's trained as an artist. She's
also she's also a natural businesswoman. That's how she got
into all this stuff. Although I don't know listeners out there,
anyone who's ever worked for Lisa Frank, because there have
been hundreds of you might disagree with my assertion that
she's a natural businesswoman. Yeah, I think she's actually a
terrible business woman. Well, I guess what I should have
(05:50):
said is she naturally has an entrepreneurial spirit. That is
an excellent way to put it. There we go, um,
so should we should we start with baby Unicorn Lisa
when she she was but a full So she did
(06:11):
Lisa and Lisa, by the way, is one of the
best things any Any quotes from Lisa Frank about Lisa
Frank are terrific. So we're going to be direct quoting
a lot throughout this podcast. I'm just picturing, uh, like
a coffee time, Like I'm literally posing the way that
I imagine her to be if she if she had
(06:33):
a tumbler called Lisa and Lisa like head tilt, probably
a bright red blazer with shoulder pads. You know, she's
got the sensible lob haircut with some fluffy bangs, tilted,
tilted head with a head resting on her hands. Would
she have a Lisa Frank coffee mug? Yeah, oh yeah,
with Priscilla on it. Her Persilla Priscilla. Um. And actually,
(06:58):
it's it's worth pointing out. I know that I've like
totally strayed from your Unicorn baby Unicorn Lisa reference, but
it is worth noting that out of all of the
characters in the Lisa Frank universe, Perscilla, the fluffy white
princess cat, is the character that Lisa says she identifies
(07:20):
most with. Yeah, she told Urban Outfitters, Yes that Urban
Outfitters that there's probably a little bit of me in
each character, but she said that she most identifies with
Priscilla because quote, she is very into glam and glitz
and jewelry and everything very girly. Um and I and
(07:42):
I like that she accessorizes Priscilla with versions of Lisa Frank. Actually,
Lisa Frank's own jewelry. Um. But in the same interview,
she notes that she's not a cat person. Yeah, what
so your your internal I don't know what your patronist
is a cat, but you're not a huge fan of cats,
(08:04):
That's what I'm saying. Lisa on Lisa is the best.
She's a conundrum. She is a conundrum. Um. But she
did say that she's always been obsessed with candy in
color always um. And she considers herself, her words, not mine,
a lunatic for detail. She refers to herself as crazy
(08:24):
in various kinds of ways. A lot I will say, well, uh,
being friends with several graphic designers, I know, I've watched
them work, and it can be hard when you're creating something,
a piece of art, whether it's for yourself or for
like a marketing brochure or whatever, to know when to stop.
(08:47):
I mean, I feel like that's something that a lot
of artists deal with within themselves, like that perfectionist tendency
to make your art amazing. I wish that we could
hire Lisa Frank to design marketing brochures for stuff. I've
never told you we need that. What would our animals?
So she's Priscilla what would we be? Oh man, that's
(09:08):
a tough one. I mean could we Could we add
nar walls to the Lisa Frank universe. I think they'd
fit right in. They have horns. Yeah. Um So back
to real Lisa, A little baby unicorn full Lisa. She
grew up in a wealthy Detroit suburb and her father
(09:29):
was an auto industry executive, and she loved drawing as
a kid. But it was sort of sad the way
that her art was fostered during her childhood, because she said,
to keep me quiet, they brought in coloring books and crayons. Hello,
welcome to my childhood. My parents only had one kid.
(09:51):
They wanted me to sit quietly in church. What do
you think they had to do? I don't know. Did
did you color? I colored? Also? Well? I think it
was to keep me from falling asleep in church more
than it was to keep me quiet, because I was
a pretty quiet child. How full circle would it have
been if you had been coloring? Lisa Frank coloring books
and church inception? Not? Well, I mean not not really,
(10:12):
but yeah? Did she she had coloring books? Right? I
don't think I had any of hers. I did have
a new kids on the black coloring book. WHOA hopefully
didn't bring that into church. My goodness, all that all
that sexual tension tempered it with a gem coloring book
as well. Anyway, well, speaking of coloring books, that is
(10:34):
one reason why we're talking about Lisa today because a
little while back it was announced that Lisa Frank was
coming out with an adult coloring book because apparently she
does listen to stuff I've never told you and listened
to our episode on adult coloring books, and the internet
went wild over this coloring book, which I think you
(10:55):
can get it dollar general. I mean, that's the sweet
thing about it. So again entrepreneurial, maybe not businesswoman minded. Well,
you know, maybe a way to think about it, as
she's a woman of the people. Populist coloring book, populist
coloring books, you can get it at all our general.
Communist she just one or the other communist Lisa kitten
(11:19):
like a kitten with a little cap on and like
a chisel carrying the side. Oh man, um, well, maybe
maybe communist Lisa Frank is turning her back on her
she she upbringing because she did attend the Tony Cranbrooks
School where both Mitt and and Romney graduated and also
(11:42):
Selma Blair. So there you go hashtag cruel intentions. Um, well,
it seems like her entrepreneurial spirit really kicked off with
a high school art show where she sold three thousand
dollars worth of original Lisa Frank's that's pretty impress of
considering I made no money on my art. Well, and
(12:03):
who wasn't who was buying? I mean, wasn't it? Wasn't
it lee Ia Coca Chrysler executive lee Ia Cocava. Yeah,
I read that and was like, and man, this lady
had a much different school experience than I did. Well,
once she made these thousands of dollars, her dad was like, Okay, Lisa,
(12:26):
I'm not really going to pay for anything anymore. You're
making commissions off your art so well. I mean, it's
interesting the way she talks about her dad and in
the few interviews that she's done, because she clearly like
he was a major influence on her. She talks so
proudly about when he chose to display some of her
(12:47):
pieces in his collection on the walls of their stately,
their stately estate. I don't know, um, but she's like,
you know, he wouldn't just do that to like make
me happy or show that he loved me. Uh, he
did it because I was worth it, or maybe that's
just my interpretation. Lisa and Lisa, Yeah, I believe it. Um. Well,
(13:09):
after her dad kicked her off the family doll essentially,
she studied at University of Arizona, pursuing art and math.
Hey hey there's stem fields um and the steams. There
you go. Yeah, she was totally steam full seam the head.
But and her first business was buying Native American pottery
(13:35):
and jewelry, taking them back to Michigan and then selling
them at a mark up. Yeah. And so she starts
representing these artists and ends up taking requests from customers
I guess back in the Midwest, Uh, delivering those requests
to the artists. And she's like, oh wait a second, Like,
(13:58):
if I'm the middle woman, why can't I do this myself? Yeah? So,
at age twenty, she started a plastic jewelry line called
Sticky finger which I googled. I was desperately trying to
find images of Sticky Fingers jewelry and I couldn't so disappointing. Internet,
Come on, Internet, I know, don't you get disappointed on
(14:18):
the Internet when it just will not you know, it
doesn't have some something like Lisa Franks original Jewelry jeweled
seriously technology, Well that's just it to me. I was
just surprised that I couldn't find anything definite. I mean,
there were like things tagged jewelry Lisa Frank whatever. But like,
(14:39):
I was disappointed because you would think that with how
much cultural cache Lisa Frank holds, especially for people all right,
that the Internet would be covered in in jewelry sleuths
trying to find her early stuff. Well, I bet it's
because only until recently have more people started to figure
out that she is real and just as a trademark. Yeah. Um,
(15:04):
but sticky Fingers was very successful. She ended up selling
it Nemon's and Bloomingdale's and she she was basically living
like every real housewife's dream. Because I feel like there
is a real housewife in every city who tries to
launch something akin to a plastic jewelry line. I'm sure
(15:25):
much much more. No, what are you gonna do all
day other than just sit by the pool? You gonna
launch a jewelry line, get your glue sticks? And I
offended a lot of listeners right there. I'm sorry. People
who have jewelry lines, I'm like, I'm sure it's amazing,
and you do make them by the pool. But young
Lisa could not be contained to just jewelry. The whole
(15:50):
jewelry business. Turned her attention to stickers and buttons, and
she says that she first got the rights for Betty Boop,
Popeye and Mighty Mouse, and she says, quote, I would
put like Betty Boop on a unicorn, and that like
is part of the quote. Yes, uh, and I love
(16:11):
that and I want to see that because why wouldn't
you want to see Betty Boop on a unicorn? But
also there's that young Lisa entrepreneurial spirit again, where you know,
she's what twenty here? What was I doing at twenty
just being drunk somewhere at college? And here's Lisa Frank like,
oh well, nobody's really licensing these images from years past,
(16:32):
you know, pop culture of yore. Why don't I do
that and put it on stuff that you can put
on yourself and put those characters on unicorns. Even though
in this very recent interview with Foundations magazine that I
was thrilled to find she said at first, I didn't
(16:53):
want to do unicorns. The artist in me said no.
Then I thought, wait a minute, this is commercial art.
Let's do what's gonna sell. Well, that's right. Wasn't that
part of her whole deal? When she was working with
the Native American artists and their turquoise jewelry, didn't she
start making some of her own or people were putting
(17:14):
in requests for those artists to make unicorns and hearts
and stuff. Well, she came up with those requests. She
had the hunch of what would sell because she had been,
you know, selling to these people. So she went back
to the artisans. And I've got to say, Lisa past
Lisa nineteen seventies, Lisa, there was nothing wrong with unicorns.
Oh no, not at all. As a child, I was obsessed.
(17:37):
It really launched a whole empire for her um and
with that by putting by putting these Betty Boops and
Papa's on unicorns and putting those on stickers, she gets
her first contract with Spencer's Gifts. Love It. When was
the last time he thought of a Spencer's Gifts? When
I was reading for this episode, whenever I hear about
(18:01):
Spencer's Gifts, uh, because it happened so often, you know. Um.
But whenever I think of that store, I just think
of the smell of incense, lava lamps, black light posters,
like the back of the store that had like weed
and boobs on things where you had to be eighteen.
(18:21):
So many key chains. We gotta go back to Spencer.
There is one at the mall around here somewhere, heavens.
But she also ran into her first business downturn when
there was a sticker slump in the night. I kid
you not, I know that was I read that little tidbit,
(18:41):
that historical tidbit. I had no idea about the massive
stick or slump of the nineties. I want to say
that that was one a little line in a piece
in time about her. I didn't mean for that to
rhyme there you go. Yeah, No, I mean, I just
I guess it's hard for me to imagine because I
had so many stickers when I was growing up, and
(19:01):
I was born in the eighties, as were you, So
it was it wasn't you bringing the sticker slump on?
Sure you were. You were supporting big sticker. Sally was like,
let's get this kid more stickers to shut her up.
I don't know. It is worth noting, though, that the
unicorn was not the only one of her like very
(19:23):
original designs that might be familiar to listeners. The classic
bubble gum machine was also there from the beginning because,
yet again bringing her dad into the picture, she said
she was inspired to do all the bubble gum stuff
because of an antique gumball machine her dad gave her.
(19:44):
And then she's like, in the same interview, she's like, Okay,
you know when you like something and then people pick
up on that you like it, and then they get
it for you, Like I have so many gumball machines
because everybody knows I love gumballs. Oh my god. So
I just imagine her house was just overrun with gumball
machine man probably dolls. I don't know. I can only imagine. Um.
(20:06):
I did, though, receive as a birthday gift some Lisa
Frank stationary when I was a kid. I had it too.
I treasured it and one of the sheets had the
gumball machine motif and I loved it. I'm pretty sure
I had the one with a unicorn on the top
of it. Mine was a variety pack and I would
(20:31):
take it out every now and then and not right
on it because I had to say it for a
special occasion. I would just flip through all of the
you know, the different designs and just marvel at them,
at her art, at her art. You were a Lisa
Frank collector, just like her dad. Yeah, I mean. And
(20:51):
this would have been around the time when she'd gotten
through the sticker slump and the Lisa Frank salad days
had arrived. In Time magazine, the very Time magazine that
mentioned the sticker slump, reported that the Lisa Frank office
received thousands of letters from girls all the time asking
(21:13):
whether Lisa Frank is real, and they dubbed her the
Queen of Stickers. Interesting, the Queen of stickers that I
thought that was my title, but that's fine. Um. Yeah.
They wrote that the company expected to sell twenty million
items that year, including three and a half million stickers,
doubling the previous year's sales, and Lisa, in her interview
(21:37):
with Time magazine said, our company is more of an
artistic passion than just a business. And that's the thing
I feel like. Lisa has always maintained the concept of
Lisa as more of an artist than like a commercial saleswoman.
Maybe that's why she has six people working for her
now as opposed to like six hundred from back in
(22:01):
the day. Yeah. So, in its late nineties peak, the
company was making around sixty million dollars a year um
and she had big plans at this time, including a
Lisa Frank theme park on it, so it would be
called the Fantastic World of Lisa Frank. There was also
(22:21):
a TV show and adult apparel that she wanted to
get into. How adult are we talking? Were talking like
Lisa Frank lingerie. I think we're talking adult as in
like large, you know, human adult people's sizes, rather than
adult people underwear, although I'd wear it if it were
if it were a good quality There you go. I'm
(22:42):
just gonna go ahead and put in that request, just
float that out in the universe that if anybody selling
high quality Lisa Frank underpants, I'm down here. You go
down to clown. But then once the New Millennium arrived,
Lisa started to fall on tough times again, so in
(23:03):
two thousand one, the company had to pay thirty thou
dollars to the FEC for collecting kids personal information online.
I mean who even knows how the internet works, right,
Like Lisa's like here, kiddies, like fill in all of
these boxes with your information and your mother's maiden name. Yeah,
joined the online Lisa Frank fan club, the Army, the
(23:26):
righteous Army of Lisa Frank. Um. Yeah. So yeah, they
got a little trouble for that, and that could be
one of the reasons behind why it can be so
hard to get Lisa Frank merch on the internet. Now, yeah,
they think that that kind of made them skittish about
getting into online retail. But that was certainly not the
company's death knell, because three years later, in two thousand four, Uh,
(23:50):
there's a twenty fifth anniversary story in the Arizona Star
that reported Lisa Frank Inc. Was selling one hundred million
items per week, including twenty three million pencils f y
I um, and the company also boasted a magazine at
the time and their fan club where they were collecting
(24:10):
all these children's information without their parental consent. That good
little Lisa Frank Communist army. I know there were one
hundred thousand members, you know, so really she did have
a little army going and speaking to the newspaper James Green,
who was the CEO and Lisa Frank's husband at the time,
said we feel like we're in a dream making company. Um,
(24:35):
which is well, that's great until you know, like hundreds
of people got laid off, and Lisa Frank was like,
you know, it's fine. I'm tough but nice. Yeah, I
mean there's yeah, this this kind of glowing feature piece
in The Arizona Star just mentioned as a side now
that there had been some downsizing at Lisa Frank UM.
(24:59):
And I largely blame I mean, yes, Lisa Frank, but
also James Green. Yeah. This guy sounds like he is
the absolute worst. And I say is because if you
look at his current company, he still looks like he's
the worst. He converted from Judaism to Christianity, supposedly and
now sells like all of this Christian swag. And it's
(25:21):
so funny to look at the comments under stories about it,
because everybody who has worked for Lisa and James is like,
ain't no way, ain't no way. But yeah, he he
started out at Lisa Frank Inc. Working under Lisa Frank
as a graphic designer right or as an artist. Yeah,
So he was hired in nine two as the company's
(25:41):
first in house illustrator. UM and things got hot and
heavy up in that that unicorn office. UM. So Frank
and Green strike up a romance and what do you know,
Green zooms right up the corporate ladder and she names
him president of the company. Two years later, they get
(26:06):
married and they buy a garish Tucson mansion with a
private jet, which I can only hope has Lisa Frank
characters and blazoned across it. There there is this house
in Marietta, Georgia, um, really Nearrow where I grew up.
That is bright pink stucco. It has a pond out
(26:32):
front with a fountain like one of those giant like
spews water straight up in the air from the middle
of the pond geyser fountains basically, and a giant swan
paddle boat. And that's just what I pictured when I
think about Lisa Frank's house, because it has to be pink, right. Oh, yeah,
(26:55):
I'm gonna I'm just gonna say that it is. I've
also driven by that house. I know exactly the house
that you're talking about, and yeah, I love that. You
know what else it is? Yeah? How could how could
anyone forget that the pink house with the swan paddle
boat in front of it. Listeners are like, what are
they talking about? Um? Also quick side question, who do
(27:17):
you think would play James Green in a movie? And
I only asked the cruise Oh yeah, tell well, James
Green is of um shorter stature hashtag. Not that there's
anything wrong with that um. But to me, like reading
all of these articles and research about Lisa and James
(27:38):
and how he sounds terrible, but also like how almost
obsessed she is with her father and his role in
her career and her background and everything. I get the
impression that like she was Katie Holmes to James Green's
Tom Cruise. Yeah, like some there was some sort of
like early life pattern volving around men. It was clearly
(28:01):
set up. And then she ends up with James Green
and he's probably a master manipulator, because how else do
you like wind up with the CTRE and not the
CEO but the founder of the company who then like
makes you the CEO and president and all the meanwhile
you're a big old jerk. Well, and he doesn't sound
like a jerk so far, you know, Like right now,
(28:23):
it's they're living in their their pink Tucson mansion with
the swan paddle boat. We can only imagine things seem happy,
go lucky. Lisa has some kids. She's like, you know what,
I'm just gonna step back from daily operations. I just
want to focus on raising the kids. By the way,
(28:43):
James Green here is a forty nine percent stock share
in my company. I think they were the only two
stockholders in Lisa Frank Inc. Sounds like a bad idea.
UM side note, her kids were named Hunter and Forest.
Keep in mind their last name is Green, Hunter Green
and Forest Green. And they, of course, because Lisa bases
(29:06):
her characters on either herself or people in her life.
UM and she uh created a leopard cub and a
tiger cub named Hunter in Forest in honor of her
son's I do love that leopard cub. The leopard cub
is cute. It's very cute. But what is not cute
is what's about to happen with James Green. We're going
(29:29):
to talk about that when we come right back from
a quick break. So, Caroline, I think that this might
be one of the gossipyist is that a word episodes
(29:49):
of stuff I've never told you this just just reads
like a tabloid. Well, yeah, because Lisa and particularly James
have been so private, relatively private. Um, And so what
you end up hearing and reading is reports from former
Lisa frank ankle workers, and those reports are not exactly glowing. Yeah,
(30:16):
so um in Tracy Igan Morrissey, who was then a
writer for Jezebel, wrote this piece that I highly recommend
listeners read called Inside the Rainbow Gulag the Technicolor Rise
and Fall of Lisa Frank in which she kind of
reveals the house of horrors that was and still kind
(30:40):
of is. It sounds like working at Lisa Frank. She
interviewed a former illustrator named Jacob who was there for
four years, who said, of course, from the outside it's colorful.
You've got the rainbow, the stars, the hearts on the building,
the statue of the panda. But inside it was like
an abusive alcoholic holme see oh, and I was haven't
(31:02):
trust me. I was having flashbacks to my first job
that I had when I moved to Atlanta, when I
worked And you can go back and listen to our
psychopath episode in which I might insinuate a few things Um.
But yeah, when you work for like a literally crazy
set of people. Um. And again, I'm not saying that
(31:24):
Lisa Frank and or James Green literally had mental problems,
although it sounds like there were some, like I said,
unhappy patterns. It is like working for an abusive alcoholic. Yeah.
I mean she developed a reputation as the worst employer
in Tucson because of the hostile work environment, and there
(31:45):
were so many allegations of verbal abuse. Uh. Caroline not
not named not you M a Tucson resident who considered
applying at Lisa Frank because apparently, there Lisa Frank is
always hiring, because Lisa franc is always firing. Um. So
she told Jezebel every person who ever worked there seemed
to have a case of PTSD from it, rainbow goulog
(32:08):
is really an apt description. Yeah. And James Green in
particular was super prone to being verbally abusive to workers.
He had all of these outbursts and fits of rage,
maybe fists of rage as well, but particularly fits of rage.
And he specifically like would not learn new employees names
(32:29):
so he can make up nicknames for them, which just
makes me think of like an even worse doctor House.
I don't get that references. I've never I've never watched
House such a good show, although it does get a
little um repetitive, but he calls his like residents or
interns or whatever. Just the number. Oh, like Olivia wild
character was six, I think, um yeah. Not helping matters
(32:52):
was that he was allegedly on lots and lots of cocine. Uh.
And that's something that Lisa Frank of late has been
like everybody thinks I'm on drugs just because I paint
like psychedelic unicorns. Well Lisa wasn't even in the office
around this time. Well yeah, she would only pop her
head in every once in a while. But who was
(33:13):
there was this woman Rhonda Rowlet, which that doesn't even
sound real, but she was supposedly Green's work mistress, and
now they run that weird like fake Christian merchandise company.
Rhonda runs it with him. Yeah. So Rhonda I believe
was his Was she his executive assistant or another sea
(33:36):
level she was. I don't think she was the assistant.
I think she was another manager. So the way former
Rainbow goolog employees would tell it, James and Ronda would
just do mountains of cocaine and burst out of the
office just yelling at people. See okay, side note, you
didn't watch Vinyl? Did you know? It's all right? It
(33:58):
got it probably got canceled for a reason. But I
would be much more inclined to watch it if instead
of having the record company executive do mounds of cocaine
and run around yelling at musicians, if it was Lisa
Frank's ex husband, if it was Lisa Frank and or
her husband and or his mistress like running around the
(34:18):
Lisa Frank headquarters yelling at people, I'd watched that. Maybe
if it was like a TV movie, I'd watch it
instead of Vinyl would be just called stickers. Stickers, um,
But I mean in terms of the hostile work environment
that Green and Roll it reinforced. There were these spoken
(34:39):
and unspoken rules, such as co workers not really being
allowed to speak to each other. That wasn't very cool.
Phone calls were recorded, No outside visitors were allowed in.
They offered no sick days. I see, I literally feel
like you're describing my first job in Atlanta. Anyway, go on,
you didn't have sick days. M Taking them was fround upon.
(35:01):
Our internet use was tracked we weren't allowed to talk
to each other. Keep going. Well, if you were taking
a sick day and you were chit chatting a little
too much with your neighbor, you might be called out
in the bi monthly Frankly Speaking, which was the office
newsletter that Lisa and James, I guess kind of co authored,
(35:25):
where they would passive aggressively be like, frankly speaking, Susan
and accounting should really find a new line of work
at my job. Like past regressive emails did go out
like and the company was so small that you knew
if somebody had done something, and so like an email
would go out and be like, by the way, you know,
(35:47):
for anyone who is considering using the last of the
k cups in the kitchen, it might be up to
you next time to refill them. Frankly speaking, it would
be thoughtful. I'll so huge missed opportunity that Lisa frank
did not start a talk show called Frankly Speaking, because
(36:07):
I would watch at least a few minutes of that.
At least I would watch minutes whole minutes well, and
these employees, of course, would try to get out of
the company. But severance packages and final paychecks were often withheld,
and all of us added up to extremely high turnover. Yeah,
(36:28):
they would. They would fight like people in unemployment. They yeah,
which as did my former company. Um yeah, so it's
your old boss, Lisa, Frank, I'm starting to think so
I'm starting well, maybe maybe James Green h was cross
dressing as my former boss. Um. The plot thickens, seriously.
(36:48):
The plot thickens well, not so surprisingly, Frank and Green
divorce in two thousand five, and Lisa reclaims her spot
as CEO, and apparently, according to some of the people
who had worked there leading up for like years leading
up to the divorce, she'd pull people aside in these
really awkward moments and be like, hey, so, like if
(37:12):
James and I got a divorce, like, would you come
work for me or would you stay with him? Oh? Yeah,
they made all their employees pick sides. Well, and that
was after so when she filed for divorce, that's when
Green went into overdrive and was like cornering people at
the office saying things like, um, you know you're gonna
work for me, right, and just being really super paranoid
(37:33):
and um possessive, grinding his teeth cocaine wringing his nose. Um.
I really hope that they hashed out some of their
feelings too, in really contentious issues of frankly speaking, well,
James Green and his CEO column would be like frankly speaking,
(37:54):
my my wife should find a new place to live. Um.
Once the divorce, though, happened and Lisa took over as CEO,
it's not like she developed the company. I mean she
spent the next three years on nine lawsuits involving James Green,
Rhonda Rowlett, and Lisa Frank the company because Frank and
(38:18):
Green were the only stockholders in the company, and also
James Green's lawyers tried to allege that Lisa had created
the hostile work environment, forcing employees to choose. Quote, this
is a quote from the lawyer which side their bread
is buttered on? Like, I mean, this is stranger than fiction.
(38:38):
You couldn't write this stuff. I know, it's so weird
and it is gossipy because it's kind of nuts. Um.
And but but anyway, like that makes since then, why
you haven't been able to go get those coloring books
and tarot cards and whatever the past ten years because
Lisa was busy. Yeah, Lisa was getting busy reclaiming her life,
(39:02):
getting things back together, although not really because as of December,
annual revenue was down to just over two million dollars
and all of the retail stores had closed. Corporate employees
dropped from three fifty to six. Where were these retail stores.
I have a feeling that was back in the nineties.
I don't remember them in any of the the American
(39:26):
malls that I frequented. Well, maybe we didn't live in
fancy enough cities, oh you know, but yeah, there were
definitely retail stores. Um. There was that old commercial starring
Milacunas where she she's like, Lisa Frank is the best,
and then she does a spin and I think it
is magically transformed into a penguin. She's magically transported. I
(39:48):
should have said to the Lisa Frank store that's just
filled with Lisa Frank. Sorry, my my imaginary commercials way better.
I would love to see Milacunas spin and trans were
I at Lisa Frank penguin, not even young me. Lacuna
is just like, now why not? Why not? She can
take Ashton Kutture with her, and then you've got the
(40:09):
massive Lisa Frank headquarters building in Tucson, which used to
house all of those hundreds of people and now only
holds like six in a room. They might be chained
to their desks, We're not sure. Um, but as of
despite the fact that there's like a handful of humans
in the building, they still have those giant Lisa franc
(40:29):
three dimensional statues as opposed to flat statues, including the
giant unicorn that stands at the entrance to the headquarters,
although apparently it's horn is missing. Yeah, I mean to me,
that just crystallizes the demise of the company. If a
Lisa Frank unicorn horn is missing, you know, like that's
(40:51):
like the given up. It's like the movie Legend. Anybody,
I'm getting none of your pop culture pop culture references
episode people who Yeah it was. It's a super nerd
movie also starring Tom Cruise. He's like twenty in that movie.
He wears the little Sassy outfit. I gotta watch this,
(41:12):
also starring Mia Sarah and a pair of unicorns. Tim
Curry is the Devil. It's real good. I don't know,
but I own I own it, like the special edition
on DVD. Oh man, I know what I'm doing. This afternoon. Um,
it is leaving work watching Legend. Don't tell my boss
so good. Um. But it's not like Lisa Frank hasn't
(41:33):
tried to breathe new life into her merchandise. In they
debuted a line of characters that looked a lot like
Brats Dolls, that's brats with a Z, that had the
you know, like the big eyes and the bubble heads
and the big lips, and like sexy bodies. And there
(41:54):
was a writer who had stumbled across these sexy Lisa
characters with names like Razzle, Dazzle and uh jelly Bean.
I don't know, and I know they did have ridiculous names.
And she was so distraught because she raised a good
point that one of the best things about Lisa Frank
(42:18):
was that it was all animals and inanimate objects, you know,
like there was no room for negative self comparison. You
just had this imaginary world where you could twirl and
become a penguin if you wanted to, or you know,
reach up in the air and grab a flying hot
dog and eat it. I was totally not expecting, but
(42:42):
I love it. Um. Sounds like a dream world. Um.
And plus, you know, Lisa Frank's drawings meant so much too. Kids.
They were so brightly, brightly colored. And and who doesn't love,
like you said, a golden retriever. You some ice cream,
even though it's really bad for dogs, don't do that? Um?
(43:05):
You know who who wouldn't be attracted to that? And
we haven't even mentioned the dolphins. I know the dolphins
and the rainbow water well. And and that was one
thing that I was hoping to find but couldn't, which
was a little academic analysis of of the appeal of
Lisa Frank because it was so specific and so strong,
(43:27):
and just remembering how I would sit there for god
knows how long, just staring at stationary Yeah, what was
it like? What was so magical about it? To you?
There was just something very special about it. And I
did appreciate the overt girl nous of it. Um And
(43:49):
I don't know, it was just like I guess it was.
There was that element of fantasy as well, where she
kind of presented in uh, just I pop way all
of my favorite things minus cheetah print. I wasn't super
into the cheetah print, but you know, like gumball machines,
(44:09):
those were cool puppies, I'll take them, dolphins, I'll ride one. Um. Yeah,
and this is sort of this sort of gets back
to what I wanted to hit on in our Children's
Imagination episode that we did about a year ago. Um,
there is something about those bright colors and those shiny
(44:30):
like everything was made to look almost plastic in these
two dimensional drawings. And so what I was also curious
about back in that episode two was like, why when
you're a child and you look at something, does it
leap off the page and seems so real and fantastical
and amazing, And you can look at the same drawing
(44:51):
as an adult and be like, oh, it's just like
a purple cat or whatever, because life makes you cynical. Yeah,
And I don't know what it is like. But you know,
I did some reading on children and colors trying to
figure out, you know, two children look at and and
feel about colors differently than grown ups do and and
(45:13):
not really, It's just that children are very attracted to bright, vibrant,
supersaturated colors, and you know, they have a different favorite
color every week, depending on what they want their identity
to be. Um. But I I couldn't really hit on
anything that made it clear why children would be so
(45:34):
obsessed with Lisa Frank, do you think that for girls
in particular, because clearly this was marketed and consumed largely
by girls. Do you think there was also the element
of just unabashed appreciation of girly nests. Yeah. And and
cute Yeah, like like no shame in that cute game,
(45:56):
you know, like they're I wonder if that's part of
it too, But I mean, I think that clearly what
we're saying is that our listeners who are in academia
have a job to do. Absolutely. Um, I would actually
pay the premium to read that paper on one of
(46:16):
those academic journal websites to have the paywalls. I'd pay it. Yeah,
I read it. I'd read more than the abstract. UM.
I do want to put this out there though, Lisa
on Lisa before we wrap up this episode, because UM,
I don't want to entirely disparage you know, Lisa's vision,
because she still takes it very seriously and you can
(46:40):
tell in this Foundation's magazine interview, which is focused on
her art, her as an artist in particular, that, um
that she is really passionate about about her work. I
mean her. She does say that her artspirations include Jasper John's,
(47:01):
Margaret Keene, Davis Cone, Peter Max. I mean she she
has an art history like knowledge and appreciation. Um. And
she said, my true passion is art. So I don't
want to just put trash out there, right, but I
think that in the process of selling all those licensing rights,
(47:23):
Lisa's put some trash out there. Oh, I know. Well, so,
but we can still enjoy her. Oh, we can absolutely
still enjoy her. I mean, just but learning the soap
opera behind the merchandise that I think was a hallmark
of a lot of nineties kids, childhoods, the dark story
(47:49):
behind the rainbow animals. Yeah, it's like revealing the dark
corners of the unicorn stalls and the bubblegum machines that
are act They just filled with poison, emotional poison, a
lot of emotional and cocaine. I'm so glad she and
James got divorced, I know. And and here's the thing, Um,
(48:12):
she rarely does interviews. She only did that interview with
Urban Outfitters that we referenced earlier in the podcast, because briefly,
I think it was in two thousand thirteen, She did
a licensing deal with Urban and they sold some some
nostalgia merge um, but I think that fizzled pretty quickly.
(48:33):
She has a reputation not only to be difficult to
work with in house, but also contractually. She gets kind
of flighty. Yeah. I think she sounds like um, an
artist entrepreneur who probably needs a good um stable of
(48:54):
business people around her who get the mission, get the gist,
and will actually maybe be the buffer. Sounds like her
and everyone else. It sounds like you are writing yourself
a little cover letter there, Caroline Lisa Frank I heard
you're crazy. No, But the thing is, I mean, how
it's got to be hard no matter who you are,
(49:16):
too long term capitalized on like a retail fad. Yeah,
I mean, how far can you ride that unicorn? I
don't know. Does it have wings twist? I don't know.
I mean, I think nostalgia. Nostalgia will get you pretty
far for a little bit. But I do think the
(49:37):
fact that she has like literally been unable to saturate
the market in the past twenty years for the best part,
has like kept her. It's kept people wanting more. Oh yeah,
I mean, and just judging by the response to that
coloring book, which was picked up by every internet outlet.
(49:58):
It seems like I'm going to get one. The news
went viral. Get yourself to Dollar General, Girl, pick you up.
But they're already out. I saw a photo of one
um online, so definitely by the time this podcast is airing,
they should be out. Well, you know, I've got a
vacation coming up. Maybe I can get a coloring book
(50:18):
instead of reading adult books with words like adult books
as in grown up, or adult books as in your
your mom's romance novels. Anyway, so I can't wait to
hear from listeners. Yes both. So what are our final
thoughts on Lisa frank You know, I mean I I
(50:42):
you know, as much reading as we did, and as
much as I completely empathize with the abused workers of
Lisa frank Ink like, I feel that there's a little
soft spot for Lisa herself because she just wanted to
follow that rainbow dream and and she got mixed up
with a bad guy along the way and made some
(51:05):
not so great business decisions. I do wish she would
learn her lesson, though, and be nicer to employees and
companies that she's working with. Yeah, but I don't know,
Maybe maybe we're being selfish and wanting more from Lisa
than Lisa has to give Lisa and Lisa, I mean
frankly speaking with that, listeners, Yeah, get us out of here.
(51:31):
Know that that was the perfect way to segue to
asking listeners for their Lisa Frank thoughts. Does anyone have
a theory on the appeal of Lisa Frank? Is anyone
else excited to get that coloring book? And has anyone
else worked for Lisa franc or know someone who has
worked for Lisa Franca has a story to share, Please
email us everything mom Stuff at how stuff works dot
(51:52):
com is our email address. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff podcast or message us on Facebook and
we've got a couple of messages to share with you
when we come right back from a quick break. So,
Kristen and I have been pretty open on the podcast
about our struggles with adult acne, and that's why we
are so excited to get our bio Clarity products. And
(52:15):
what's most fun is using their restored gills. So it's
green because it's derived from plants, but it is super
soothing to our skin. So what is this bio Clarity
we're talking about well. Bioclarity is a totally new acne
treatment designed specifically for young adult skin that is naturally better.
It's clinically proven to clear up acne blemishes and help
(52:37):
maintain clear confidence skin. They even did a clinical trial
to prove that before going ahead with their product launch.
And about that product. Bio Clarity is a three step
cleansing system that starts with a rich foaming cleanser, a
step to gel treatment to attack bacteria that caused acne,
(52:58):
and then step three a restora gel that Caroline and
I just can't get enough of. Yeah, so step one
you wash away dirt, oil and pollutants with that cleanser,
Step to the gel contains antioxidants and attacks bacteria that
cause acne, and step three that restored gel with flora
lux helps reduce redness, the size of pores, and soothe
(53:20):
the skin. So what are you waiting for? Get on
your way toward clearer skin today by going to bio
clarity dot com. Stuff mom never told you. Listeners can
get their first month for only nine that's the twenty
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code stuff. That's bio clarity dot com and enter code stuff.
Don't wait. Go to bioclarity dot com today and now
back to the show. Well, I have a letter here
from Marin in response to our library arian two parter.
(54:02):
Maren says librarians hold a special place in my heart
as I worked at a library in high school and
my boss was a kick ass librarian. Incidentally, she was
an older, unmarried woman, but a far cry from the
spinster librarian stereotype. I did do some shelving and circulation
desk work, but mainly I helped plan and run summer
book clubs for teens along with many other events, put
(54:24):
together book lists for different subjects, and research titles for
new acquisition. It was definitely the best job ever. Something
I didn't know until I started that job, and something
I was a little surprised y'all didn't mention when talking
about the librarianship being at the intersection of a service
job and a profession, is that library science is a
master's degree. These women and men go through some pretty
(54:46):
specialized training, but most people are unaware that it requires
a specific degree. Interestingly, in undergrad I ended up taking
a children's literature elective through the Library Science grad School
Department at my college, and it was by SAT on
child psychology and literacy and geared towards those striving to
become librarians at elementary schools or children's librarians at public libraries. Currently,
(55:09):
I'm in medical school and most of our librarians work
with digital information, helping us navigate science and medical journals
and evidence based medicine websites and apps. It's remarkable to
see the breadth of work there is for librarians and
how they have adapted their knowledge on information to the
modern age. However, we do have a more traditional librarian
who runs the physical library on campus and deals with
(55:31):
the old school books. Hilariously. She is the literal opposite
of a Madam Pince esque librarian harping its students to
be quiet. Instead, she always speaks extremely loudly, either on
the phone or to other people, even though it's a
silent library usually full of students studying. Insert laugh cry
(55:52):
emoji here. Please keep doing what you do, and Marin says,
ps Kristen, I am so excited that you're watching Buffy
the Vampire Slayer for the first time. I have to
admit I do have a bit of a crush on Giles. Yeah,
Giles is handsome. Weren't sure. I have a letter here
from another librarian, Natasha, who writes, I've often felt the
(56:12):
field of librarianship gets a bad rap because a lot
of people don't really understand what we do as a profession.
I've often received comments from our patrons who are surprised
that we have to get a master's degree to work
as librarians. They believe all we do is sit at
a desk and tell people where the restroom is. The
worst comments are people who ask us why we're still
relevant since Google exists, which brings me to why I
(56:35):
write well. I appreciated the time you spent on the
history of librarianship. I felt you were a little lacking
on some of the current trends in libraries and where
we are as a profession. For instance, librarians are at
the forefront of fighting for freedom of information, fair use,
and open access. We're also wrestling with the concept of
information literacy and how to teach individuals how to navigate
(56:57):
the web of information without getting lost as researchers. I'm
sure you're both aware of how difficult it can be
to ascertain the differences between good and bad sources, librarians
are working on providing tools to the public to figure
out the difference between the two. I truly believe libraries
are one of the last democratic institutions on Earth where
(57:17):
anyone from any background can learn and grow in a
non judgmental, open environment. We librarians work very hard to
continue to keep it that way and improving on many
diversity issues. I truly appreciated that you both took two
episodes to provide some insight for those who aren't as
familiar with libraries. Well, thank you so much for sharing that, Natasha,
(57:39):
and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom stuff
at how stuff works dot com is our email address
and for links to all of our social media as
well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with
our sources, so you can learn more if you want
to about Lisa Frank, head on over to stuff Mom
Never Told You dot com or more on this and
(58:03):
thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com.
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