FMF: Thelma and Louise

When buddy road trip movie Thelma and Louise was first released, it caused controversy, conversation and connection. Decades later, people are still discussing its impact on our culture and feminism. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm not come to Stephane.
Never told your production of iHeart Radio. And it's time
for another feminist movie Friday. I think it could be
a feminist movie Wednesday. The schedule is shifting, lowsome things happening.

(00:28):
I think it's a Friday. Hey, either way, they may
not be listening on a Friday. So just a feminist
movie day, a feminist movie day, which should be every day,
should be every day true story. Yes, quick sugar, warning
before we get into this, they're going to be discussions
of sexual assault, abuse, and suicidal ideation. Nothing to in
depth because we're talking about Salmon Louis. So if you've

(00:50):
seen the movie, that's about the extent of it. But
just in case, also, I feel like I didn't give
enough emphasis to we're talking about the Alma and Louise. Yeah,
Thelma and Louise, an iconic duo that we all pretty
much know, I would hope, unless maybe you were born
in the last twenty years and you've never seen this movie.

(01:11):
That maybe not I never heard of this movie, Go
watch it. Yes, So we are talking about Elma and
Louise and I actually I just came out very strong.
But I only saw this for the first time, I
think last year when we did our episodes episodes because

(01:31):
it was a two parter on Women in Revenge and
I really really enjoyed it. I definitely knew what it
was and had seen like parodies of the ending, but
I had never seen it. And Samantha, you were saying
before we recorded this, before we started recording, that you're
not sure you've ever seen it in full. I know,

(01:52):
and I say this to the people who are like,
you know what this is. But of course, again, like
I said, we know what this is. I have seen
pieces of this movie to the point that I had
thought i'd seen all of it, but then when I
rewatched and I was like, wait, I think I've never
really seen the complete movie in one sitting. So it
could have been that I watched half of it one time,

(02:12):
and then three months down the road, I was like, oh,
here it is. It's not because it used to be
on like cable network all the time. Yeah, I don't
know if it's still happening because I don't have cable anymore.
We just stream everything. So but when I did have
cable network, T n T would often have it on
and so, and it doesn't have it on just once.
It's typically runs three or four times within the span
of periods like a month, because I guess they bought

(02:34):
the right, so they're gonna use it to the full extent.
So I would see pieces of it and I knew
each piece, But when I sat down and watched it
in order, I was like, wait, I don't know if
I've ever fully watched this entire movie in one setting,
even to the fact that yes, I remember the Brad
Pitts scene, but I don't remember the fact that he

(02:54):
got caught, which yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like this
movie is so iconic that even though I hadn't seen it,
I felt like I had. And there were just certain
scenes that I just like Brad pitt jumping on the
bed shirt lists or you know, the car you're going
over this side, I just new. Yeah. And by the way,

(03:15):
for those who have hurt him today, except for like
if you've seen Burn after reading where he plays the
dizzy Jim guy, his voice is completely different from other movies,
like if you watch like fight Club, if you've watched
a river runs through it, which is, by the way,
is the first movie I ever saw him and beautiful man.
His voice is high pitched and very country accident to

(03:36):
play the con artists he plays in this movie, so
it may throw you off from what you know in
his young days. Yeah, and I guess a bit of
a spoiler before we get into this spoiler into what
we're going to talk about. Not about the movie because
it's old enough that I'm sorry your time because a classic. Now,
it was interesting in very sweet casting story between Gina

(04:00):
Davis and him, where he was the one that flustered
or so much she kept messing up and at the
end they asked her like, who should be cast and
she was like, obviously the one I could not keep
straight around because he was flustering me so much. And also,
as we're going to get into in depth, um, when
this movie came out, there was a lot of discussion
around it's man hating essentially, and a lot of people

(04:24):
have pointed out, well, what star came out of this movie?
Brad Pitt did right? So how much started his role
as being yeah, a babe, the ultimate movie star. Oh
my god, he's the one again? To me, it was
a river runs through it and I will die and

(04:45):
fight anyone who says differently, because that was the first
time I ever saw Brad Pitt, and I remember thinking,
holy crap, who is that dude? And if he smiles
like that at me, ever, I will think, of course,
he's also the tortured boy in that movie Unattainable Tortured Boy. Yeah,
but okay, I know all about that. I know all
about that. Uh well, I haven't future future movie day

(05:10):
turn you and I uh yeah, so we actually happened
to be accidentally timely because this is the thirtieth anniversary
of this movie and a lot of articles are coming
out right now about it, so that's cool. We do
this a lot. We do this a lot where we're
right around like the big numbers of like, oh, look

(05:32):
at this classic. It's been a classic for this long.
And yes, again, like I said, for those who you know,
born twenty years ago, twenty five years ago, you probably
have no idea or we have vague idea of what
we're talking about because it is thirty years old and Annie,
it is definitely one of those that a lot of
women will be like, we're going to Delma and Louise this. Yeah,

(05:53):
and I've used that reference before. What do you know,
not with you, yeah, because we haven't gotten into any trouble,
but definitely with co host and lady like Airline, we
talked about stuff like that, just because I could see
us being the ones getting in trouble. I feel like
you and I got in trouble that one time at
that food festival. We didn't caught, So yes, we were
mischievous without getting caught and ran away very quickly. I'm

(06:15):
not going to tell that story though it's not. It's
really innocent everyone, please really, but it makes me feel
good that I was kind of mischievous because it's kind
of this whole idea of this movie, a little bit
being free, but you know, ethically not so much good things.
We know this. So let's begin with the plot with

(06:36):
Thelma and Louise, which was made in nine and is
a Ridley Scott film. We've talked about him before, we
mentioned him before in our series obviously, and it does
start the wonderful iconic Gina Davis, which we have talked
about before with the League of their Own, who plays Filma,
as well as Susan Surrandon, who plays Louise, because we

(06:58):
talked about her from the Witches of Eastwick episodes, another
iconic actress obviously still today, And of course there's a
shirtless Brad Pitt in one of his first big roles
in Yes. He became a heartthrob thanks to this. I
think he was on many teen magazines with that cowboy

(07:18):
hat shirtless. I remember this. Did I buy it? Know?
But yes I did because I didn't have the money.
But I did stare at it at the grocery store
lines while standing with my mother to buy groceries. It
was written by Calie Curry and is often described as Yes,
a female buddy road trip film, a comedy, a drama,

(07:40):
a feminist odyssey. I like that. Curry said she got
the idea in sort of a lightbulb moment where she
was thinking about women on a crime spree, and that
quote I saw in a flash where those women started
and where they ended up through a series of accidents.
They would go from being invisible to being too big
for the world to contain because they stopped cooperating with

(08:03):
things that were absolutely preposterous and just became themselves. Yeah.
So apparently, okay, a couple of things. So Corey. This
was her first screenplay and she allegedly based it on
a friendship she had with a country music singer and
also just a bunch of women really connected to these

(08:24):
sort of in quote smaller instances of women being harassed
throughout the film, and they were like, yes, yes, I
connect with this. This needs to be made. And this
was after a history of sexism in Hollywood because apparently

(08:45):
in a casting session not for this movie, Corey was
asked to choose women with bigger breast and less close
and she, along with producers she often worked with Amanda Temple,
who was instrumental in this movie as well, would often
say you get what you set off for, which is
a line in the movie. So Temple was able to

(09:08):
contact really Scott to her friend then named Mimi Paul
who's now Mimi Geitlin or Mimi Holt Gitlin, who ran
Scott's production company, and they handed Getland the script more
to check that they weren't way off on it. After
several rejections, they were like, is this any good because
we think it's good, but people keep rejecting us, and

(09:28):
Getland connected again, yeah, a lot of the things in
the script. She was like, yes, I've been through this,
Yes this is good, and she convinced them they needed
to show it to Ridley Scott, with the idea that
he might produce it. However, when he read it, he
later said quote, I saw what was unique about it immediately.
Women tended to get parts of somebody's girlfriend. This was

(09:50):
about no one else but them. It had substance, It
had a voice, and had a great outcome which you
could never change. Their decision was courageous to carry on
the journey and not give right. And he also later
said I'd never had trouble letting women tell me what
to do. All the years I'd run my company, I'd
find that women were the best men for the job.
Scott Free l A was run by a woman. Scott

(10:13):
Free London was run by a woman. I could sit
around and analyze the foolishness of men, since men are
fundamentally the children in any relationship. So on, as kind
of it is shown in this movie. Oh yes, I
feel like we can talk about that forever. Oh yeah, yeah,
And I know we mentioned in our Alien episode, but really,

(10:35):
Scott has said he is a stout feminist because of
his mother. I do think that's a whole separate issue
of like, you know, lauding male feminists, great allies, advocates always,
but you know, like the levels I think are different,
in the judgments I think are different and the standards,
yes exactly, but I do think you know that that's interesting.
Scott did press Corey to add more humor to to

(10:59):
the script to a appealed to everyone in the audience,
including men, to quote make them eat crow. Under the
understanding they get name actresses and five thousand dollars for Corey.
They sold their rights to Scott and Gitlin also like
Jodie Foster and Michelle Phifer were the original names. Jodie
Foster did Sounds of the Las, Michelle Phifer did the

(11:20):
independent film, and she now says she cannot bear to
watch this movie because of the opportunity. But to be fair,
and I know we say this often, I just don't
know if if without Gina Davis, I mean her character,
because in overall, when we see Gina Davis's character, she

(11:41):
is the powerful, powerful one or the powerhouse one, and
typically all the movies that she's in, even in Beetlejuice,
even though she's kind of meek and mild, she's still
a powerhouse and trying to maintain her home obviously, so
I just I mean not that Michelle Phiffer's not, but
they also love bringing in Michelle Phiffer to be the demure,
giggly woman, which she is beyond that, and we know

(12:03):
that her acting skills are superb, but you do typically
see that for her role, which, by the way, it
would have been hilarious if it had been Michelle Peiffer
because she and the dude that plays Dna Davis's character
were in Greece too, which is the movie that she
hated the most. Yes, I still remember those movies. Well,

(12:24):
oh god, let's I've never seen Greece. Okay, Well, you
don't like musicals, I forget that, because you're like, I'm
willing well, musicals, I've told you I don't like so
Hamilton's is almost all music, there's no talking. My problem
is the surprise solemn. So I think I think, sorry,

(12:47):
that's Greece and these two is the I love it
because of this. I think, to me, it's like a
cult classic of how bad it is, but I love
it and it's worse. Well, I'm into it. I'm I
want to do it. I will get over this fear
of mine but also ce our past feminist movie Friday
on Batman returns about Michelle Peiffer's Catwoman, but also interesting

(13:14):
that Eugena Davis she wanted the role of Louise, and
she wanted it badly, and her agent was calling like
Realley Scott daily, like get her in and if the
timing just kept shifting because of director issues, they were
trying to find a director that was not really Scott,
and eventually there was like a timeline and Gina Davis

(13:38):
wrote this essay on like why should be Louise? And
then really Scott was like, so you wouldn't be Thelma,
and then Tina Davis like went in to hole essay
and she was like, no, actually I think I would
be a Felma doing the whole thing, and that she
signed an open ended contract and said I would do either.
So that's how she got the role, which I find

(13:58):
really interesting because she does amazing at it. And I
will say this is a very personal note. Gina Davis
has a really deep voice, and when I was young,
I was really ashamed of my voice because I thought
it was really masculine, really deep um. But she's an
actor that I always connected with because her voice is
so deep. Right, yeah, I'm the same way. I didn't
connect with her that way. I connected with her because

(14:20):
she wasn't feminine like she wasn't She wasn't like, she
wasn't dripping with being very girly. And I mean that
by like she was athletic. She was. She moved in
a different way, and she was tall and like had
a different manner of being without being seen overtly feminine.
And as much as I wanted to be feminine, I
really wasn't. I was not necessarily like the tomboy. I

(14:43):
wasn't necessarily the tomboy. But I definitely didn't hit the
like princess either, So it made me feel really awkward.
And she does that in a way like of being
the awkward girl without being either way, and it's kind
of like, ah, she is the middle groul that I've
been looking for, because you know, when you especially when
you see glamorized movies, you see that glamorise and or
the opposite where they're complete tomboys, and I was like,

(15:05):
I'm not either one of these. Who am I? Right? Yeah, Yeah,
that's that's a good point. She kind of did that
in league of our own as well. So Ridley Scott
did approach several directors about this movie, and he later
accounted the story of like this guy saying listen, dude,
it's two bitches in a car. Uh, and Ridley Scott said,

(15:27):
why are they bitches? Because they have a voice, And
another guy said, oh, it's small, to which I said, no,
it's epic, I being Ridley Scott, and he started talking
about the prescenium, the landscape was the third big character
in the movie, and that the film is an odyssey,
and then he went on to say, like, I didn't
realize when I was interviewing these guys and I was

(15:48):
talking myself into it, so that being he talked himself
into directing. And this was after like Gitlin had said
you should do it, and a couple of people had
said you should do it. Corey was nervous about it
because she was like, oh, then it will become a
big film, and I don't know what that will mean.
But eventually they reached a point where they're both comfortable

(16:08):
and they were both like, Okay, let's do this right
because obviously it's not just he is known for the
big action films. At that point, in time, and so
this was a lot about heart um and typically I
wouldn't have imagined at Lee Scott. Honestly, I forgot that
it was him would have directed this film either. So

(16:40):
the film follows best friends Delma and Louise, who decided
to take a weekend trip to a mountain cabin to
get away from their lives in small town Arkansas, where
Thelma is a housewife married to a controlling and a
loudly verbally abusive husband, and Louise is a waitress dating
a musician who is never around. Also the actor who

(17:00):
plays uh husband, her ex from all of the Quentin
Tarantino movies. She recommended him. She was like, I mean,
I say that as if it's a positive, but I mean,
and we're gonna talk about this a little more. But
his character wasn't like dislikable, like he seemed like the

(17:21):
typical you, but at the same time he was still
one of the more loyal of the Yeah, it's interesting.
I have a lot of thoughts about that, and we're
definitely gonna get into it. Okay. So Thelma and Louise
stop at a bar on their way to their destination,
where Thelma, who's like so into this idea and like,
I need a vacation, I want to have fun. She
dances with a very flirtish, strange journeyed Harlan, and later

(17:45):
in the parking lot, Harlan kisses her and tries to
take off her clothes without her consent, and when she resists,
he gets violent and attempts to rape her. Louise arrives
with a gun and turns to shoot him, and he
he reluctantly releases Thelma, but as they're walking away, he
salts both of them says he should have raped Filma. Furious,
Luise shoots and kills Harlan, and the pair flee the scene. Yes. Also,

(18:13):
I feel like I have a lot of behind the
scenes factory this one and like it. Yeah, So Susan's
ran in made it clear, and it was clear in
the script as well that it was a very split
second decision on her character's part, that it was like
not premeditated, but he just called her this and it
was like the last thing and it was just like

(18:33):
final straw snapped, which I find really interested. And the
acting is amazing in this movie, of course. Yeah. Okay,
So the pair go to a motel and they discussed
what they should do about the situation um and they
discussed it on the car ride. On the way, Filma
wants to go to police, but Louise disagrees, thinking no
one will believe that the man tried to rape Thelma.

(18:54):
No one will believe them, especially after bar patrons saw
Filma dancing and drinking with Harlan with this man, and
that they would be charged with murder. Eventually, they decided
to go to Mexico, or at least to Louise decides
to go to Mexico, but she insists they do it
without passing through Texas, So while on their way, they

(19:17):
meet handsome and often chirtless drifter j D played by
Brad Pitt, and Thelma quickly becomes smitten with him and
persuades and begs Louise to allow him to ride with
them for a little while. Louise contacts her boyfriend to
get them to transfer her life savings to her, but
he surprises her by showing up and he proposes, which

(19:39):
she refuses because it's obvious that he's just scared that
he's going to lose her right so therefore this is
what he's doing. The Alma sleeps with j D and
finds out he's a thief who is breaking parole. When
the pair awake the following morning, oh yeah, they realized
that j D, who went to a whole thing about
how he liked to raw people, has stolen all of

(19:59):
Louise his savings and is nowhere to be found, leaving
Louise devastated and Thelma incredibly guilty. So she robs a
convenient store. With what she learned from j D. She
had to get out play by play on what he did,
and she decided I'm going to do this. Yeah, I
mean that's so it's such a sweet and sad scene,
especially if you know what happens, because she's so happy

(20:21):
because she got like good sex for the first time.
But then you're like, wait, he definitely robbed you. So
the FBI closes in on them, following eyewitness accounts of
their vehicle. Uh. They questioned the newly apprehended j D.
They questioned Louise's boyfriend. They tapped the line of Thelma's husband, who,

(20:41):
hilariously and sadly enough to me, he's like, oh, she
hangs up, and it's like, now there'd be a tap
because she knows right, he wouldn't mean that. Nister, the
head investigator played by Harvey Keitel, seems to understand their actions,
especially given Louise's past um and it's kind kind of implied.
I guess the story shifts, but it's kind of implied

(21:03):
at first that like Louise was the mastermind buying the
whole thing, and then it's like, wait, Thelma is the
one that stood up this place, which is important to
to the alternate ending we're gonna discuss later, but he is.
Harvey kite Tail's character is unsuccessful and condensing them to
turn themselves in. So Thelma tells Louise that she can

(21:27):
turn herself in if if Louise wants to go back,
since she has Jimmy, her boyfriend, waiting for her. But
that Thelma herself refuses to go back to her husband.
She refuses to go back to her old life. Louise
argues that they are in this together. They're gonna do
this together. Later, Thelma discusses what happened at the bar
that set off the whole thing and asked if Louise's

(21:50):
response to it had to do with what happened in
Texas and Louisa was angry and demands that Thelma never
talked about again what she had kind of already done previously.
She's just been very close, close lipped about this whole thing, right,
I do want to talk about with the one scene
when the waitress is giving her statement and just absolutely like, no,

(22:10):
those ladies had nothing to do with it, and they're
too sweet, they're too nice. One top me really well,
there's no way that they were responsible, and just about
how this man's reputation was that he was sort of
an and deserved to die essentially, which puts up a
hole like, okay, this is kind of telling to Harvey
Citeil's characters, like Okay, yeah, there's something amiss, something had

(22:31):
to have happened. Here we go. And then of course
when the hair pulled over for speeding, which is one
of the funnier things. I don't know what you thought,
they quickly realized they'll be caught. So Thelma, after the
police officer tries to get Louise and identify her, pulls
a gun on the trooper and forces him into the

(22:52):
trunk of the police car, which again she is doing
some things like you're like, well, they am she's gotten
into into our own demanding and anything like turn off
the radio, shoot the radio, making little air holes for
the police officers. She just being nice. I stuck him
in the dawn trunk. There you go, And as they

(23:14):
continue their drive to Mexico, hilarious, a truck driver makes
rude sexual gestures of them, and they forced him to
pull over after many interact yeah and him being a dick,
demanding an apology from him at gunpoint, which he decides
that he's going to be a real dick and just
continue on, even though they start asking which, by the way,

(23:35):
we've done this recently, just for people to get empathy about,
like think about your mother, think about your your wife,
would you want this to happen to the people you love?
And the fact that we have to even or anyone
has to even suggest that for them to think about
another woman as a human right. But of course he didn't.
So they used the guy to blow up his entire

(23:56):
rig and leave him stranded and take us at which
is hilarious, yes, right there, but funny, it's satisfying. So
the police soon catch up with them as they're passing
near the edge of the Grand Canyon and Thelma and
Louise decide that, in the face of spending their lives

(24:18):
in prison, that they keep going. They almost suggests they
keep going. Louise make sure that you know she's totally
sure of this decision, and it kiss whole hands. Louise
pushes down the accelerator and they fly over the edge,
and the image freeze frames their car hovering in the
air over the cliff. It's one of the most famous,

(24:39):
iconic and parodied endings of all time. Yes, yes, but
apparently in the original ending, at the last minute, Louise
pushed Thelma out of the car, but Surrandon and uh
Davis fought against it, and ultimately they got their way.
Gina Davis would later say, I earn to my death,

(25:01):
which is interesting, and also, um, I read right before
coming in to record this that the scene where Thelma
has sex with Brad Pitt j D. She was supposed
to be naked and they were supposed to be like,
you know, boobs, and and Geene Davis was like, I
don't see the point, and she went to Susan Surrandon

(25:23):
about it, and Susan Surrandon like marched in toward Lee
Scott and said no, and so they didn't put it
in its women supporting women, right, But I wanted to
because as I was researching this, I just found so
many really funny summaries of this movie. So I wanted
to know, Samantha, if you had to t LDR this,

(25:44):
if you had to summarize this movie, how would you
describe it? Oh, two best friends pushed over the edge,
get the revenge, and have their happy ending. Clumb blank.
That's beautiful. Thank you love that. I don't think I
can do better than that. It's essentially, Yeah, two best
friends discover the beauty of their friendship overall else and

(26:08):
choose it overall else and write or die, Write or Die.
This is the epitome of Ride or Die. This is
the beginning of Ride or Die. I feel like, you know,
I need to look into it. But yeah, I think
this might be But Okay, As we mentioned, there was

(26:30):
a lot of controversy when this movie first came out,
and especially around people saying that it portrayed men in
a negative light. Yeah, there were all kinds of headlines
like is violence what feminism is all about? This is
toxic feminism, people calling it a violent, disturbing movie that

(26:54):
it was degrading to men, all kinds of things like that.
That being said, plenty of people praised it, a lot
of these people and women, but some men. Some have
rightly pointed out that there were plenty of good male
characters in their film, but that they weren't the main characters,
and we're defined through their relationships with Delma and Luise,
with women, like how most women are defined by men

(27:19):
and almost all movies ever. Yeah, or in the words
of critic Janet Maslin after the film's release, many detractors
were annoyed by quote something as simple as it is powerful,
the fact that the men in this story don't really matter,
which again is how women characters are it almost you know,

(27:40):
a majority of our movies, right, And I found this
quote interesting. Corey said in two thousand one, bad guys
get killed in every damn movie that gets made. That
guy was the bad guy and he got killed. It
was only because a woman did it that there was
any controversy at all. And I thought that was really
interesting because I think she's onto thing there. I was
thinking about how many movies we have about men getting

(28:02):
revenge and how we're like, yeah, I get it, And
then in this movie, apparently a huge backlash of like,
look at these violent women, they hate men. Oh my god,
they're supposed to be dainty and kind and just walk away,

(28:32):
So from Rebecca Nicholson over at The Guardian. In May
this year, when the film was released, in unleashed a
wave of controversy that seemed to take its cast and
crew by surprise. Gina Davis and Susan Sarandon appeared on
the cover of Time magazine under the cover line quote,
why Filma and Louise strikes a nerve. The particular nerve

(28:55):
that it struck was much debated. Was it, as some
critics felt, a thoughtlessly violent movie that saw two women
committing terrible crimes in the name of empowerment. And by
the way, where are these terrible crimes? Because they didn't
murder one person. They did put a person in a trunk.
Everything else even like good yeah, okay, yeah, oh. I

(29:16):
got a lot of thoughts about this. I got a
lot of thoughts about it. Keeping on with the article,
were they quote acting like men under the cover of
feminism or was it, in fact mss andry unfair to
men because it portrayed all of its male characters as awful.
Never mind that they're not all awful. Is, by the way,
a pre hashtag not all men? Yes, we know that

(29:37):
one so well. Were they role models? Was it a
feminist parable? Was that ending one of the few that
has truly earned the overused adjective iconic perfect or a
cop out? In the Last Journey at two thousand, documentary
about the making of Filma, and Louise Surrandon addressed all
the noise and said, films at their best, that should

(29:58):
challenge your perspective. This is film at its best. Yeah,
and that's that's a great quote. And interestingly, because a
lot of people are writing about this movie right now,
because it's the thirtieth anniversary, and some people who have
said this film wouldn't even get made today, and that
women in fact have been losing ground when it comes
to representation and entertainment, and we've got over those numbers

(30:21):
on this show. So a lot of articles use those
numbers to be like, yeah, look at how we've lost
ground in fact, or how they're going down. But despite
the controversy, the film was successful both commercially and critically.
It was nominated for six Academy Awards. I believe it's

(30:42):
the last movie to have to actresses nominated for the
Best Actress Role like the main actress role from One
Movie with Gina Davis and Susan Strandon, and it won
for Best Original Screenplay. And when it won, when Corey
accepted the Oscar, she said, for everybody that wanted to

(31:04):
see a happy ending for Thelma and Louise, this is it.
And yeah, just as her reminder, she used, one of
the only few women who has won this award. Right,
and the film had obviously a huge cultural impact, influencing
feminist thought and other media from recent movies to Taylor
Swift to even The Simpsons. In twenty sixteen, the U. S.

(31:26):
Library of Congress chose to preserve it in the National
Film Registry. Yes, and Yes. After this movie came out,
there were all these predictions that it was the catalyst
for so many great movies about women, And don't forget,
which was the year after this movie came out was
predicted to be the Year of the Woman, but that

(31:46):
didn't happen. Um for the movies twentieth anniversary in Rainow Lifts,
it's called it the quote last great film about women
and for the thirtieth anniversary, Gina Davis said, I'm thinking,
hot dog, let's sit back and wait for all this
magic change to happen. We're still waiting. It really did
not happen. It seems like every five years or so,
there's another movie starting women that's a huge hit. People say, well, now,

(32:10):
certainly everything is going to change, and it really hasn't.
And Gina Davis started an organization called the Gina Davis
Institute on Gender and Media, all about representation and media
in part because of this, and she's spoken about how
she felt about this after this movie came out, where like, oh,
I really need to think about how this role is
perceived and what roles I'm taking. Susan Sarandon said, I

(32:33):
completely underestimated that we were backing into territory held by white,
heterosexual males. They got offended and accused us of glorifying
murder and suicide and all kinds of things. It didn't
seem like a big deal. It seems like it was
unusual that there would be a woman that you could
be friends with in a film, which we've talked about
a lot, right, right, and even for a split second,

(32:56):
you still had the stereotype of women pinned against women,
and it could have taken a really bad turn, Like
you could take the script and made this horribly done.
And I think part of that would have been having
even though it's sweet, like having one being the innocent
one and the other one being, you know, the bad one,
as it kind of was trying to go down that route,
and they did a better job. No, we're in this
together and the stories and of course we don't want

(33:18):
to highlight violence, nor do we want to highlight suicide
in any way. But what this movie did is a
completely different conversation about how these women were pushed over
the edge by everyday occurrences that are so familiar by
all of us, any person who has grown up female.
We know these experiences. The truck driver, Yeah, I remember,
I had those experiences. Are trying to drive away real

(33:40):
quickly because of those things they were insinuating towards me
on the freaking road, versus a man thinking buying you
a drink gives me entitlement to do this and that
and this, and like, we know these people, we've seen
these people. Yeah, oh absolutely, And and that's one of
the interesting things I find about this movie. Which a
lot of people have written about is like you know

(34:02):
it's from and how can we be watching it in
and we're still like, oh gosh, he has I connect
to all of this. But also there is a really
interesting dynamic in my opinion, and we're going to talk
about this in a minute more, but where there's kind
of this ditzy Thelma who is not as world wise

(34:25):
and kind of like, yeah, I just want to have fun.
I'm just gonna go do what I want to do.
And then there's Theuise who is much more like I've
seen seen something and trying to guide them through this
journey of you know, getting away from prison. But then
like they make a switch, They make a really interesting

(34:47):
I don't know switch is the right word, but they
take care of each other, Like Belma realizes that she
needs to do something because Louise is so upset, so
she is like, Okay, I will take control of the situation,
whereas Louisa they control up until that point, which to
your point, I think it could have very much been
a kind of Caddy women against each other movie, but

(35:12):
it is very much like they fight, but then they
help each other, like they support each other and they
stick with each other. H Yeah. And one of the
interesting quotes I read, and I think we've talked about
this a lot, is I just read this quote where
together they become a quote third thing where there's Thelma,

(35:34):
there's Louise, but together they become something else where they're
kind of transcending. They're you know, like Filmo's life being
knowing her husband's cheating on her and it's so disrespectful
to her and Louise's life of like, you know, I'm
in this waitress mode, but I could be doing all

(35:57):
these other things and they come together, and I mean
the Almos says it all all kinds of times in
the movie where she's like, I think I'm cut out
for the right I made for this, And I just
connected with that so much because I felt that with people.
I felt that with you, where I was like right
together with this woman, with this friend, I feel like

(36:20):
I'm coming into my own Like they're helping me realize
my potential and what I can do right. I mean,
there's definitely where the hype woman, the hype person behind
you who encourages you to be the better. Of course
this is not the better per se, but hopefully like
you have those people in your background being able to

(36:40):
encourage you to know that you can stand on your
own and or you can step forward into this world
that's so uncertain to you, and or standing up for
yourself in general. Like that's that whole level of having
that person in your life that sees when you need
to be pushed, and that sees when you need to
be supported, like there's those those things, or just when
you need to be there. And yeah, I don't think

(37:02):
that's talked about enough because for the longest time, especially
in the nineties, when we looked at like the Heathers,
and that was not the context of the movies. It
was all like all on your own, get what you can,
move on, and you know, and this was not it.
This is not that. This was a I was protecting you,
I was defending you. Now we've gone to this point
and the truth of the matter is, like we know

(37:23):
women are not believed, and in the nineties even less so.
And just for the mere sake of saying I took
a drink and went outside with him voluntarily meant enough
that you're slutt and you're guilty, and which is exactly
that indication and understanding that you can't trust the system
because they don't believe women, so in itself, like, yeah,
that's exactly what happens. And then when you push someone

(37:45):
to the edge, what happens? And then if you have
someone hopefully they will have your back. And what does
that look like? Yeah, it's hard. You're like, this is
you know, the outcome ultimate outcome, mind have not been
great thing, but you feel like the big connected so
strongly with each other and they stuff with each other.

(38:06):
Something about it is very moving. I mean, Jane David's
character Elma does say I've had the best time, and
I feel like, for the first time I'm living. Yeah,
and I think this is I thought about talking about
this in this episode. I think it's too big of
a topic for now, but it kind of goes back
to our platonic marriage thing. But I was just kind
of thinking about, why is this idea in my friend

(38:26):
group at least of a compound of women essentially resonates
so much, And it feels like when I'm watching that
movie this is kind of it is like, you know,
hashtag not all men, but essentially we're still living in
a patriarchal system where I know if I were to marry,

(38:48):
even if it was someone I loved, I don't trust
myself because I've been raised in this system not to
not grow resentful and take on more burden than I
should take on, because I feel like that's what's expected
of me and the dude and relationship has been raised
in the same patriarchal system and has different expectations. And

(39:08):
that's not saying like it's either of our faults necessarily,
but that's what we were raised in, right. And communication
is great, but I do think at a certain point
it's hard to communicate your own experience somebody who hasn't
experienced it. Um So when I watched it, I was like,

(39:30):
this is the vibe I'm talking about the compound, And yeah,
I do think I like that there's moments where they're
angry with each other and frustrated with each other, but
they kind of give each other's space and they don't
even if there are moments where they kind of like

(39:52):
have barbs at each other, they don't really blame each
other ultimately, like they stick with each other. And I
think that's a that's a really beautiful representation of it,
because it's hard not to even if you're the victim
or the survivor not to have those thoughts of like
blame and I like that they have those, but then

(40:13):
kind of give space and then or like no, but
I was wrong, wasn't you. We're sticking together, and then
I do like that the Yeah, there's this real shift
in their characters, especially Thelma, I think, who goes from
being what she calls like sedate or Louise calls to
date kind of what you settled for. Just the quote

(40:35):
to really be right, I'm gonna rob this place. I'm
gonna stick this cup in the back of the trunk.
I made it, I mad ite to win it. I'm
sticking with you. And she says a lot of lines
that are really interesting like um, I can't go back,
and I feel awake all these things and in this

(41:02):
was filmed in Utah, which I just say because I
did a similar road trip with my friend through Utah
and it was it was equally like really rewarding. I
wasn't on the run from the wall that we did
get speeding. Um, but yeah, it's just like a really
beautiful experienced to be in in that that space with

(41:29):
for me another just really close female friends and then
I did want to point out there are those moments
like the Louise throwing away her lipstick, trading her jewelry
for a straw hat, like these items of femininity that
are if you're living a life on the run or

(41:51):
ultimately worthless or kind of like what good does this
do me? Right? Yeah? And also interestingly the two mains
with thirty five and forty five when they are cast, which,
as we know in Hollywood, you know, thirty two is
like the end of your career as a woman that
is changing, but still pretty amazing that this happened. And

(42:28):
about the ending, Corey said to me, the ending was symbolic,
not literal. We did everything possible to make sure you
didn't see a literal death. That you didn't see the
car land, you didn't see a big puff of smoke
come up out of the canyon. You were left with
the image of them flying. They flew away out of
this world and into the mass unconscious women who are

(42:48):
completely free from all the shackles that restrained them have
no place in this world. The world is not big
enough to support them. I loved that ending, and I
loved the imagery. After all they went through I didn't
want anybody to be able to touch them. This could
be like the Grease ending which they just flew off
in the car for no damn reason. It was like,
what's happening really? Which came first Greece? That was in

(43:15):
the eighties, right, No seventies? Oh no, you got me
thinking it was seventies. I think you're thin, you're it's
before this. Yeah, but it has nothing to do I
don't have no doubt. This has nothing anything to do
with Greece. I like that Grease keeps coming up. It
was in my head. I was like, because, well, forever
confused as you can tell as to why at an
ending of a musical which they were just supposed to

(43:37):
drive off that they had to fly the car had
to fly to fly, gotta fly. Oh yeah, that's a
that's a really interesting I thought we're gonna talk about
that more in a minute of like this kind of
symbolic ending, But we definitely have to talk about trauma,
because trauma is throughout this movie. And one thing I

(43:59):
found ound interesting is that generally, not always, but the
men are continuously screwing the women over in this movie.
And one of the reasons I found This really interesting
is because there were a lot of male critics who said,
especially when it came out, um, that the women pretty

(44:19):
much deserved what happened to them because of the terrible
decisions they made throughout the movie, which is kind of
the point. It's like they missed the point, which is, yeah,
just more evidence of blaming women, of turning around like, oh,
she was almost raped, it was her fault because what
she was doing. Oh she was drobbed, it was her
fault because of what she was doing. And some of

(44:42):
even pointed out, you know, even good guy Harvey Keitel
doesn't seem to realize the world we live in, Like
he's very I want to help you, and that's great
and all this stuff. But Susan Surrandon has been through it,
like it's implied she's been through this and she knows
what it looks like and she realizes what's going to

(45:05):
happen to them if they get caught, And he doesn't,
right right, I think he's very much aware, but he
thinks the awful ending is death like that, he thinks
that's the worst ending, And so I get that, like
that maybe the endpoint, but I think into that tell
like to him, death is the ultimate bad ending. He
wants to save any of that because even in the

(45:27):
movie he actually does say as like they bring out
all the guns and hunt them down and have like
all like ready to go. He was like, stop, They've
been screwed over so many times. And he actually says
that as in like, this is one more thing. You're
implying that their hard and criminals are like, well, they're
armed and dangerous, and that there's the armed dangerous that
actually only hurt one person in this entire time, which

(45:50):
one person is bad enough, But in the actuality of
it all, it's like they're not on a killing spring
as so many would think. Um as in fact, yes,
the cop is crying, but they keep apologizing to him,
I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry again.
Doesn't make it right. But to put them as dangerous
hard and criminals is not the same implications as what

(46:12):
is happening. And I think he does understand that level,
and I think he was put in that character as
being like, hey, here's one guy who kind of gets
it but still truly cannot get it even though he's
got some of the puzzle pieces. Yeah, I think so
I think he's the what is that looks like the

(46:33):
Star Wars difference of the episode, the po damn roon
of this where it's like a good guy that doesn't
get that. He's like, he doesn't get it. So one
producer said when they were shopping around this script, the
main characters were quote basically detestable and unsympathetic. Will never
get the audience to support. And I wanted to use

(46:54):
this quote because I've actually heard a producer tell me
something similar about what I wrote once. And then I've
been thinking about this a lot, and we've been kind
of talking about it or around it a lot. In
this because the new Marvel show What If people have
been saying like this is sort of showcasing white male mediocrity.
Because I feel like if this was a story about

(47:14):
two men, we'd be cheering, oh yeah, they like that
cop up at the chunk, like we would be, well,
we would be, especially if they were defending a woman,
like even more so, there's nothing higher. A woman can't
defend herself, but a man defending a woman, it gets
all the high praises. Yes, yeah, And it just got

(47:37):
me thinking, and I want to come back into an
episode on this, but because I kind of talked about
it and like the glorification of the awl man. But
I just feel like, again, we're saying these women who
generally are pretty funny, pretty likable, and are not like
outright hurting anybody other than what we will say is

(47:59):
pretty villainous and in self defense, and yet we are
critics at this time. We're saying, like, oh my god,
they're so detestable, we can't like them, Whereas now I
feel like a good chunk of our kind of heroes
or anti heroes and are big blockbuster movies, are men
that are doing the same thing right. Yeah. And then

(48:21):
another another idea that came up to me is kind
of this whole like one prison for another. So especially
when you look at Thelma's character, who is like slowly
realizing I cannot go back to my husband, I cannot
go back to this life that she was living in
this prison, and now that she's free from it, she's
she's like found uh talent or something as she says

(48:45):
for it, and that she's like blossoming outside of it.
And I know I brought this up in Our Women
in a Revenge episode, but it made me think of
the Awakening again, because the Awakening of my Kate Chopin,
if you haven't read it, it's very similar to this.
It's about one in who kind of you know, breaks
gender norms and gender conformities and experiences freedom in a

(49:06):
way she had before. And then at the end she
goes swimming, and it's implied you're you're left to decide
whether she intentionally killed herself or she just died because
she didn't realize she was going too far out and
then she couldn't come back. And it's like she was
going out into freedom and then once she got a
taste of it, she couldn't go back. And so that

(49:29):
it reminds me of this. It felt the same of like,
oh I got this taste for this, I cannot go
back to what it was before. I was to say,
that's a lot of plot points for women, especially during
like times of suppression and oppression, but they are seen
as eccentric and so once they become something different, that

(49:49):
there's no other way to handle this woman than to
have her own demise, or create her own demise, and
or lock her away, which is constantly you see that
with fitz Generald. Some fis old novels. You see that
with him and Away's novels, like either she dies or
she's in prison forever like this this kind of one
or the other, and it does seem like a carrying
thing that we should come back to now that we're

(50:10):
talking about it, we should. That's definitely a good point
of like to get out of this, you have to die.
If you found freedom, you realize how miserable your life is,
that there's no other option. Um And speaking specifically for women, yes,
exactly exactly we did want to talk about because we

(50:30):
always talk about trauma in here, and Louis's past trauma
is throughout this film, her PTSD over it. You can
just see the report effects. That's kind of what caused
her to shoot this guy Harlan who was attempting to
rape her friend in the beginning, Like it was just
built up and she didn't want her friend to go

(50:50):
through it. But she was also dealing with what she
had been through. That's why they couldn't go through Texas.
That's why she couldn't get caught or allow herself to
get caught. She wanted to go on this whole idea
of not believing women Louise is a you know, very
impactful line where she's like, we don't live in that
world Filma, like we can't just turn ourselves in, right,

(51:12):
And we don't know the exact situation. But obviously with
the Harvey Kitael's characters say, I know what happened in Texas,
she probably went down that route of trying to get
justice the right way, but she wasn't believed. So it
was one more trigger in which he learned I'm not
ever gonna get helped and they don't believe women. So
that was kind of that whole level of like, yeah,
there's no justice, and yeah, everything's as bad as I

(51:35):
remember it being. And it still follows me as it
doesn't follow the guy who the actual perpetrator, right, Yeah,
And and I do find it interesting that throughout there
are these you know, there's this huge, terrible incident at
the beginning, but then there were all these like minor
kind of things that we as women are used to

(51:56):
throughout and so like one is you know, people calling
the we's especially a bit even though you know she's like,
don't rape my friend, like oh you bitch, okay, or
the truck drivers continuously gesturing at them or calling rudely
at them. Also, he says Stormtrooper of Love, which I

(52:18):
looked up to make sure I didn't miss here. That
is what he says, and it is I feel weird
saying this because I do have I personally have a
lot of hang ups around revenge. I I guess that
they're really compelling stories. But it is satisfying as a
woman to watch that guy get his come up. It's like, honestly, right,

(52:40):
he didn't get killed in the end, like he was
fine and yes, and he will be compensated for the livelihood.
Maybe he will think twice before cat calling women again.
And how many movies have we seen, especially superhero movies,
are like James Bomb movies or the movies starts the

(53:00):
woman gets killed, James Bond kills everybody that had anything
to do with it, and we're go James Bond, Right,
that's every show almost too dramatic, police crime? Any of
those shows are Alombo's lines. Yes, yes, so, I just
I find it interesting that when it's based towards women

(53:21):
and women's experiences and lived experiences, and that clearly a
lot of women can connect to based on how this
got made, that men were really comfortable around it, and
that they didn't like that. Women were happy that this
cat callar gotta come up, and they they did their
own vengeance instead of a man, right, you know, defending

(53:46):
their honor, which is acceptable, exactly exactly. I find that
really interesting that we can't let women have this like
cathartic vengeance moment, but men kill all kill all the
people you want in the name of this woman. And
it's a huge blockbuster hit and we're not gonna have
a controversy about it, and that's just defending your whole yes. Um.

(54:08):
And then very briefly, I just want to mention that
I found in this movie very beautiful, this aspect of
telling friends about trauma, um and opening up to friends
about trauma and just having that even though you know
you never hear Louise's story and full, and you never
really hear Thelma's story and full, but you kind of
have this acceptance between them and this understanding between them.

(54:30):
I'm here for what you need. If you don't want
to talk about it, you don't have to talk about it,
but I understand that this thing happened to you, and
I'm here for you. The check fine, really beautiful. And
I think that's a big part of it is because
a lot of times you and I totally understand that
the drive but you want to push somebody to tell
you their experience. But that's not always the healthiest thing

(54:53):
or the best thing. But to have kind of that like, Okay,
I'm here for you. I will, you know, occasionally check
in to you and ask about it, but I'm not
gonna push you about it, like just find it very
beautiful as it should be, as it should be. Well,
if you haven't seen this movie, go check it out.

(55:13):
It's great. I found it still held up. I had
a lot of funny moments. To be honest, I know
it sounds kind of great. They had a lot of funny,
relatable moments that you're like, oh, that's fun and just
kind of that whole Even two towards the end, as
she's talking about I found my neck, I found I
can do this. You know, that in itself was a

(55:37):
funny line in it, and it kind of brought that
joy of like, well, okay, yeah, again, it's pretty satisfying
to see why they're coming into their own and coming
into their friendship and really just like yeah, right, or
day went all in. They went all in. Well, go
check it out if you haven't. And in the meantime,

(55:58):
if you have any suggestions for whatever next movie you
should be please email us. Our email is Stuff Media
mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can bind
us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast or inst grammed
stuff We Never Told You thinks. It's always to our
super producer Christina. I think she'd be a writer. Di
She's awesome. I think so, I think you And thanks
to you for listening. Stuff I Never Told You's the

(56:19):
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