How Cameron Esposito is Revolutionizing Queer Media

LGBTQ representations on screen can be sooo awful. Cameron Esposito is trying to change that.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Pritchett and this is Annie, and you're
listening to stuff fun never told you now. A few
weeks ago, I was a little hungover. If you know me,
that is not an unusual situation, might actually be the

(00:29):
case today. And when I'm hungover, I like to watch
a lot of TV. And one of my favorite movies
of my childhood or of my youth was on I
think Showtime, Lost and Delirious. Have you ever seen this movie?
I have not, Okay, So the plot of Uston Delirious,
it's basically like most good movies in the late nineties,
it's kind of ALTI young women who were all in

(00:51):
prep school and one of the main characters that's a
common yes, the craft, that's like a common thing there was.
There was like a obsession with young women in prep
school or like Catholic school in the late nineties. Kind
of yeah, a little bit right. So basically, Piper Peara
Booze character in this movie is gay and she's in

(01:11):
love with her roommate and they they they're dating, but
it's kind of like hush hush, and one day they
get caught. They get caught by another classmate in the
bed with each other and the Piper Pear Booze I
guess like Boo is distraught and so she calls the
whole thing off. She's like, I don't want to do
this anymore. And can you guess what Piper pear a

(01:33):
boot does after this rejection and heartbreak. I have my
suspicion that she kills herself. She does. She has a
complete mental breakdown that involves cutting off her hair and
weirdly getting really into falconry. There's a falcon in this
movie that never but yeah, I mean she she has

(01:56):
a complete mental breakdown. She threatens her her booze new
dude bro boyfriend with a sword and stabs him, and
then she jumps off a building and kills herself. And
this is a movie that I I loved growing up
because there were so few representations of you know, queer
gay lesbian characters on TV. Like I could I could

(02:19):
count them the ones that were big deals for me.
I could count on on one hand. Loston de Layers
is a big one. Weirdly, this is not a movie
that I would think of as like a gay triumph
but cruel intentions because two girls kiss in that movie. Um,
you know the the amount of media that we got

(02:41):
was just not great. It wasn't great. And even though
this movie was foundational for me and I loved it,
looking back as an adult, I was like, this is
actually really really toxic and really really troubling. So you
probably know this this sort of plot device bury your
gaze if you've heard this, And basically it's this idea
that gay cares queer characters they aren't allowed to just

(03:02):
live happy, fulfilled lives where they meet other queer characters
who like them and they have a normal, happy, you
know life. Something disastrous always happens. They they're unrequited love
and so they're heartbroken and they kill themselves or there
they die in some other way, and it's it's it's
actually really really troubling. Yeah. I immediately thought of um,

(03:27):
Buffy the vampire slayer Terra and then Willow goes completely
insane and becomes like a super witch, starts is going
to like destroy planets. Yeah. The subtits is always that
queer folks one are all just like a hair away
from losing our mind, or two we're just we're unstable,

(03:47):
like we we you know, it's like it's some something
will happen and you become a super witch, or you
become you know, jealous, and you know you've got this
revenge plot, like you're never just a normal person in
a normal human which yeah, yeah, as you are in
the weed and verse of Layer. So it's funny. Um

(04:10):
Auto Straddle a feminist website aimed at lesbian and bisexual women.
They checked all the lesbian and bisexual women who've died
in the history of television. When they first began this
list in March had sixty five women in it. Now
it has a hundred and eighty two. Whoa oh this
reminds me of another big one, do you Um, did
you hear about that whole thing about the one hundred
the show and the yes, yes, that was a big deal.

(04:32):
It was. It caused quite a kerfuffle because there was
I've never seen a show full disclosure, but I remember
this happening. It was big enough where like entered my
periphery of I'm very limited on social media. Is probably
some of you can tell trying to get better, but um,
so I think it was Alexa. Was she the one

(04:52):
that got killed off? So it's like in a future
world where in theory there's no like, it doesn't matter
if you're queer whatever, you're just happy to date someone.
It's kind of not the point, you know. Um. And
so she had a relationship, the main character relationship with Alexa,
who was this badass warrior queen, and she kind of

(05:14):
just died in a very unceremonious way. And it was
after sort of hints from showrunners that we we did
this purposefully, like these characters are there because we want
to make the statement that she was going to be
a big role and that their relationship was kind of important,
and then she just died. Well, that actually blends two
of the most troubling things I found when it comes
to queer representation on screen. One, it's they get killed

(05:37):
off barrier gaze, and too, it's kind of queer baiting, right,
So that's kind of a form of that, I think
where the show seems to suggest that this is going
to be a integral piece of the show, this character,
my queer characters, and then it's like, oops, no, no,
it's not. Yeah, it's kind of hooks you in. And
so queer baiting in its ris form is this idea

(06:01):
that shows have characters that they hint at being gay
and they never deal with it. But I think that's
the same kind of thing where you you think you
are going to get a show that is, you know,
deals with this in a in a substantive way, and
then it just kills them. Yeah. Yeah, Um. I've been
actually researching a lot of queer baiting lately because it's

(06:22):
just come up in several things that I like that
I've sort of noticed, like mm interesting. And also, as
I've alluded to several times, I was at one time
and occasionally still did my toes in fan fiction. I
was a big in that world, and I remember like
seeing a lot of things that women love writing slash
fiction mail with male characters. It's always for things where

(06:44):
you know that the writers didn't intend that, but it
is like there you could see it, you know, um,
which is queer baiting. It is queer baiting. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
And so I've been I've been looking into that recently,
and um, we don't have enough of those characters anyway.
It's not not a good move to tease at like oh,

(07:08):
fully agreed, but I will say it does lend itself
to a lot of interesting speculations where I think so
and so was gay. Here's why you know it's it's
I certainly have some characters that I know they'll never
do it, but man, I wish they were gay. Um.

(07:29):
One of my biggest guilty pleasures is a show called
Supernatural and they're definitely not gay. But man, Dean and Castiger,
it's there. I see all the sun. Stay tuned your
Annis splash is it flash fiction? Slash slash raction? My
my cheek since got red, I can't imagine doing it.

(07:53):
Stay tuned for Annie's imagining of the world where this
is the case. Oh man, there's so much of that
are to be out there. But maybe I'll add to fail. Oh,
I love it. So here's a few stats for you
in terms of where we are in the media representation now.
These numbers are from a Glad study that they did
looking at the seventeen media landscape. They found the number

(08:14):
of regular l g B t Q characters counted on scripted,
prime time and cable series increased from eighty four to
ninety two, while recurring characters decrease from fifty eight to
fifty This is a total of a hundred and forty
two l g B t Q characters regular and recurring.
GLAD also counted l g b t Q characters on
original series that premiered on Amazon, Hulu and Netflix. GLAD

(08:37):
found forty five series regulars and twenty recurring l g
b t Q characters for a total of sixty five characters.
This is up from last year's inaugural streaming count of
fifty nine l g b t Q characters, forty three
regular and sixteen recurring. And beyond that, one really cool
thing to point out is of the eight hundred ninety
five series regular characters expected to appear on broadcast scripted

(08:59):
prime time programming in the coming year, for three or
four eight percent were identified as gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender,
and queer. Now, this is the highest percentage of LGBTQ
series regulars GLAD has ever found. There are an additional
twenty eight recurring LGBTQ characters. So does see, Mike, Things
are sort of moving in the right direction in some ways. Yeah,

(09:23):
especially in TV, because I looked at um some stats
for film and it was not as positive. Well, I
think that's a really interesting point, and I think it's
why you see so many content creators going towards things
like Netflix and Hulu and other forms of media that
aren't sort of the big screen. I think that folks
feel like they have more control over those stories and

(09:44):
their representation in those avenues. Yeah, and it's I think
we're still stuck in this kind of dinosaur model when
it comes to movies of like, you've got these big
studios and they're trying to they're putting in all of
this money and they want their the return on the money,
so they're just sticking to these stories that they know
have made the money before. And so we're getting movies

(10:06):
with characters that are perhaps like not your traditional white
male and okay, like female white females in the periphery.
But they're coming from indie film studios which are not
getting the same amount of money are the samemount of press,
and therefore not that many people are seeing them. They're
not getting made as much. But for something like streaming
service or TV where there's room to experiment, like it's

(10:27):
not this one big project exactly. Yeah, they're they're far
ahead of the game when it comes to this then
film is It definitely seems that way. Um. And it's
also important to point out that while it's very important
to have representation at LGBTQ characters across all spectrums, it's
also very important that they're well done. According to Lauren mckinroy,
a social work doctoral candidate at the University of Toronto,

(10:49):
her research found that having good representations are validating and
normalizing for l g b t Q plus youth and
contribute to their identity development and overall well being. However,
many youth have to go online to find these affirming representations,
and often into online fandom communities because of the limitations
of l g b t Q plus represented in offline media.

(11:10):
So basically, that's kind of what they're saying, right, is
that folks who want this diverse array of representation oftentimes
have to go online because you're not you're not getting
it in other avenues, right, Um, And we've talked about
before so many times now how it does matter to
be able to see someone that you can identify with,

(11:32):
that you can connect to, that it's like you on
the screen or in media, in mainstream media, exactly, representation matters.
I feel like I've said it a thousand times on
the show, to get a tattooed on my forehead at
this point, but it's true. It's true, um and in fact,
a lot of content creators are using the Internet to
build the representation they want to see exactly. And that

(11:55):
brings me to something super, super exciting that I got
to do just two weeks ago. I went to Los
Angeles to talk to one of those badass, brilliant, amazing
content creators, Cameron Esposito. So you might know Cameron as
this groundbreaking lesbian content creator her show Take My Wife,
which if you haven't seen it, it's amazing and I
cannot recommend it enough. You can find it streaming on iTunes.

(12:17):
But really that was a project that she kind of
created herself. She wanted to see this representation of what
it looks like to have queer, non binary relationships on TV,
and so she created it. And I think it's a
great model for folks who are want to see those authentic, multidimensional,
real stories reflected. She got it done, and I think

(12:41):
it's a real inspiration for you know, as a as
a queer content creator. You know, she she built this
thing and people did. I mean, when Take my Wife
Season two premiered, it was an overnight sensation. It became
number one on iTunes right away. And really, I mean
it was a triumph of what you can do to
diverse to five the media landscape. Take my wife featured

(13:02):
an all female writers room and really intentionally sought out
queer people and people of color to handle all aspects
of production. So I'm not just talking the writer's room,
the talent. I'm talking costume designers. I'm talking people who
are on the set right. So, honestly, if Caramenes Pasito
can do it, and do it wonderfully, what excuse to
big studios have for not doing it exactly? And we're

(13:25):
gonna have caramin Es Posito herself to explain why that
is after this quick break, Cameron, I cannot thank you
enough for being here today. You are making my personal
dreams come true, and I'm gonna say it, probably the

(13:47):
dreams of a lot of our listeners come true as well.
I mean, I'm I think I'm gonna blush. I think
I'm gonna blush real hard. Thank you. That's such a
nice thing to say. It's so nice to meet you.
You are a ray of sunshine on this very sunshiny
Los Angeles day. Yeah, it's hard to not feel funny
and warm in l A Oh, my god, that's true,
which does actually feel almost debilitating after a while. Yeah,

(14:09):
I know that sounds weird, No it does, It doesn't
because being on the East Coast, it's been a little
bit like gray and dreary and people are a little
bit depressed. Everyone here is so light an airy and
sunny and happy. So if you get depressed here, then
you're like, well, this is totally on me, Like there's
this is not seasonal depression. This is I'm having a
hard time. Yeah, you can't blame the weather. Yeah, there's
noever like a day when it's so rainy and you
need to stay inside. I mean, this is not I'm not,

(14:31):
I'm not. I love where I live, but as somebody
from Chicago, like I do miss some of the like
the help that the weather gives you on just like,
hey man, this is rough, Like we're all in it
together thirty in of snow and we have to like
come together as a as a city and a community.
Here it's just like no, man, you're on your own,
beautiful Yeah, get out there and make your dreams come true. Yeah.

(14:53):
I love the excuse of having the weather to like
stay in in order to take out and watch Netflix
so being from Chicago, let's let's should you start there?
How did you go from Chicago girl to the wonderful
I'm gonna say media mogul that your international celebrity comedy
A lister. Yeah, like a like a plus, like like

(15:14):
a little above the A. Um, how did it? Well? So,
one thing that I learned how to do when I
was in Chicago was really operate like a small business person.
My dad's a small business person, and um, my mom
always has worked for a lot of my life also, um,
and so I feel like I had like good hustle,

(15:35):
which a lot of comics start out with like great
art instincts, and I certainly, you know, really love the
art part of comedy also. But one thing that growing
coming up in Chicago is like a very d i
y scene. So I was used to like producing my
own shows. I created a stand up class for women
because there weren't a lot of women doing stand up.
I was like, well, what if I just trained them
so that I had peers. Um. I started an open

(15:58):
mic because I needed like three hundred bucks to make
my rent a month. That's a real number. And so
I uh just figured out like how to scrounge that
from a couple different places. And I mentioned all of
this because like, when I got out here to l A,
I um used all of those skills that I had

(16:18):
worked on for like the ten years prior that I've
been doing comedy and just kind of approached it that
way that has served me very well. I think that
the thing that scared me about l A, why I
never wanted to move out here, was that I always
had this impression that's like you throw all your stuff
in a convertible and you're like, go out out because
you're gonna make it. I'm not gonna make it like

(16:39):
that like five four and uh like normative body type
and gay haircut, Like nobody's plucking me off the beach
to be like come star in our as an ingenue
in our like And so I know, I just never
thought i'd have a place here. But it turns out
if you want to come out here and work and
you know how to like diver to fire your business.

(17:00):
Isn't this a serious answer? But it's true? No. Well,
so as someone who I mean, I think that I
think of myself as like a creative professional, and something
I've learned is you have to sort of abandon this
idea of someone's going to pluck you from obscurity and
you're gonna be the next big thing. What actual creative
success looks like, and for a lot of folks is
it's a little bit of a hustle. So it's you know, speaking,

(17:22):
it's training, it's writing, it's working, it's this, it's that,
it's all of these things. It's not sort of overnight success.
It's actually a lot of work that is sort of boring.
And maybe I'm glamorous a lot of the times, but
that's what's you know, leading to success. Absolutely, And I
think also that that might have been different a little
like ten years ago, when there were a lot less
networks on television, things like that, somebody could have could

(17:44):
be like they fully made it. I'm Jerry Seinfeld, this
is the show with my name on it. I made it.
But that being said, Jerry didn't create that show. So
like the thing that we we have in common it's
really exciting about doing business now is like creators are
often there's a closer relationship between who created the material
and who's presenting the material, which is really exciting and

(18:07):
read for underserved voices because it means nobody else is
writing our show. We're um, like talking out of our
own faces. Um, and it does mean that like you
also don't get paid gobs of money for one job
that sets you up for life, absolutely jobs forever. Yeah. So,
something that you brought up that I love about your

(18:27):
your work is how integral you have been in sort
of carving out those spaces for women, for marginalized voices,
for queer people. Um, you tweeted once about your show,
Take my Wife and all of the amazing things your
show was able to accomplish in terms of lifting up
the voices of others. So was twenty two out of
forty seven roles played by queer women. You licensed eight
songs from queer musicians, worked with queer friendly costume designers,

(18:49):
You have women of color in the writer's room, right, Like,
these are statistics that are you know, they shouldn't be
earth shattering, but they are. And so my question is
why has that been important to you to sort of
build these spaces on your own. That's say, like, listen,
if they're not going to give us a platform, we
will build a platform. We will we will find a
way to amplify these voices. I feel like we don't

(19:10):
hear this enough, so I'm gonna start here. For me,
the reason I started doing stand up was literally to
create safety for myself. I could come out to a
room of like two people or two thousand people, everybody
was would know I was gay. I would have charmed them.
Maybe they don't want to kill me. That is so serious,
but it is so true, right, So like then I
started stand up there. That's how I want to work

(19:32):
for the rest of my life, which is that if
I felt that way, I assume there are probably a
lot of a lot of other folks who feel like
when we talk about representation mattering, I think it can
that can feel very simplistic, like I need to see
someone that looks like me. It's also like I need
folks creating stuff that have walked the earth having these
experiences like it really is. I mean, I fully am

(19:56):
a social justice warrior, like that thing that you get
called on the internet the people hate. That's what I'm
trying to do. Like I want to um bust down
doors for myself to make my own life safer, and
I want to try to create a bridge that does
that for others, so that they can do that on
their own behalf also, and I have a wonderful partner,

(20:17):
my wife Rhea. We share this in common. We have
this same vision. And so when we went to plan
our second season for Take My Wife, we got a
bigger budget. Where we applied that money was in time,
so we took two extra weeks to ask our production
company deliberately to help us find um. Like Writers of Color,

(20:39):
we always had had an all female writer's room. Well
h is non binary, so re is also in the
writer's room. Um. And then we also did the casting ourselves,
so like we had, we had folks that were doing
the emailing and calling agents and stuff. But I just mean,
like if you sometimes, if you want to make change,
we didn't have money to hire somebody who's a casting director.

(21:02):
We literally like thought of the folks that we knew,
put the call out in the room, like who do
you know that actually fits the role that we're writing here?
So for writing a role for black women that's queer,
who is who is that that you know? Um? And
we started casting from there. It's really amazing what you

(21:23):
can do when you reach out to your community and
ask them to refer other folks in their community. Definitely.
It's like that idea of sort of you know, casting
the bucket where you are or whatever that phrases, right, like,
sometimes the folks that you need are right there, and
that if you if you go to like a traditional
casting person, they might go through the traditional roots. But
if that's not what you're trying to build, that doesn't

(21:43):
necessarily make sense to do. I mean, and I mean
number one, that's true. Number two, we did this ourselves,
so that leads me to believe other shows can do
it that actually do have a person this casting, So like,
if y'all could do it, if we can do it
with like no help, then if you have help, you
can do this. And that's really why we shared those
numbers because our show first season was we we operated

(22:06):
with an almost like lower than most indie film budgets
to make six episodes of television that was doubled for
our second season, but for TV like still really small money.
And I say that because if we can do those
numbers just with like intention, then I think that you
can too if you're making your project. Definitely, I want
to go back to something that you said that I

(22:26):
found really interesting, which is this idea that you started
doing comedy to make the world a safer place for
folks like yourself. That takes me back to being like
in high school or junior high or I always thought, oh,
if I can make so and so laugh, they won't
bully me, they won't tease me. That seems like such
a universal experience. I think. I think that's where all
comedy comes from. I mean, every humor is a coping mechanism.

(22:47):
It like de escalates the situation and a lot of
times when you like I don't know if you ever
listened to WTF with Mark Marin, it's basically like people
talking about the moment and there in their grade school
life where they got bullied. Like that's you can like
every comedian thing in common, right. I think that the
bridge and like the specificity of somebody who's like from

(23:08):
an underrepresented community, is that like often that bullying really
is like a safety issue again, not that like if
you're a straight white sis dude, you're not gonna get
beat up. But I'm talking about more than beat up.
I'm talking about like constant name calling and possible like
you know, assaulter like death. I mean, this is so

(23:29):
serious for stand up. But it really is right, like
you're making someone laugh so that they value you, and
that's um, like why it's powerful to then take that
back to be on stage in front of a bunch
of people and like choose to be in that role
and make them see you like you're gonna see my
You're gonna see my haircut, you're gonna see my jacket. Um,

(23:51):
I don't know. I mean, it's I'm happy to have
this job. Yeah, I think it's a testament to the
sort of radical power of comedy that it is kind
of a are reclaiming. And I just remember thinking, like,
if I can make these kids laugh, then I've won
them over. Even if they don't like me, they think
I'm annoying, they want they their inclination is to pick
on me. If I can make them laugh around my
side And it's it really I think you nailed it

(24:13):
so well that it's it's kind of this this radical
way of reclaiming that I mean, it's also interesting because
when we think about who has historically been able to
been like allowed and I'm putting allowed in quotes to
do comedy, and then also let's take that into other spaces,
so like who's been allowed to be a politician. UM.
The like, if you're listening and you want to run

(24:34):
for something, watch stand up because I think, you know,
when I look back to the last election, UM number one,
I hate the criticism that was flung at Hillary because
of her like speaking style. I mean, obviously we don't
even have to fully run through the talking points of
why that was infuriating. UM. But I think that if

(24:56):
you want to figure out how to I don't even
want to use the word soften, but I mean gather
in comics are doing that, Like that's the point of
stand up sort of, especially women who do comedy, UM,
and non binary folks and folks who are queer. It's
like that that gathering is part of it because you're
like preparing people to like, I'm going to talk about

(25:19):
sex that you don't know whether or not you agree with,
so like come over here, like I'll get you in
here and I'll win you over. So yeah, I'm sure
there's folks that are listening that are going to run.
Watch a lot of stand up. I really think it
could help you in your public speaking. There's an intersection
I think between running for office and doing stand up.
I think both take a certain level of really intense bravery.
I think both take a level of sort of everyone

(25:41):
kind of looking at you and scrutinizing you, and you
being able to roll with it or like perform through
it or talk through it or whatever. Um, I think
it's a it's an I had never thought of that before.
I have a background and activism in politics, and I
had never thought of that overlap. But I think you're
you're so right that there is something there that if
you want to run for office, watch how comedian handle
themselves on stage. Yeah, because the diffusing, right, Like when

(26:03):
you're a politician or a priest or literally anybody that
speaks in front of people, you have to have like
you have to stand behind your opinions, but you also
have to be able to diffuse and hear out other folks.
And so like that skill is really what I love
about stand up. It's cool part of the job. Would
you ever run for office? Um? I don't know. I

(26:26):
mean I think I should probably like get a little
bit more qualified first. Hey, I mean look at our president. Yeah. Yeah,
and and that's going great. It was a good choice,
Like it doesn't watching him in office doesn't lead me
to believe we should actually use qualified people. I think,
since it's going so well, let's just go ahead and
run with this. This is our new this is our
new way of doing things. Oh but I think I

(26:48):
think you're onto something. I want to push that narrative
out into the world that running for office, that you
can you can look to other industries and avenues to
sort of get the the internal thing that you need
to run for office. I also think, just as someone
who was a podcast, I mean, you probably are used
to people being saying things about the way that you
present your voice. Probably everything. It's so it's so difficult

(27:08):
to be a marginalized person was a platform sometimes because
everyone has an opinion. Oh my god, girl, I just
felt so seen and heard. Yeah, it is tough. It's
really tough. I mean, I don't I don't know what
do you do to deal with it? Um, I don't

(27:29):
read a lot of comments. We did an episode I
have a thing. I'm I hate the way my voice
sounds good thing. I have a podcast, um. And so
we did an episode around women and voices and speaking,
and we talked about a lot about Hillary Clinton and
sort of the idea that you can either be shrill
or you can be sort of um almost sort of
to chill. I guess like there's sort of no winning.

(27:51):
And I basically said on the show, if anyone has
a comment about the way that I speak, I'm not interested,
Like I don't want to hear it. You know, my
voice is my voice, and yeah, and so people still
right in and I'm sure they still will, but I
have to just sort of disengage because you know, as
a professional speaker, my voice is part of it. But
I think the most important thing is what I'm saying,

(28:12):
and if people have something to say about that, great,
But if it's about oh, her voice sounds like this,
I'm just I have to not engage. I mean, first
of all, I'm really sorry that you've had to like
internalize that that thought over your over a lifetime. I
think it's really hard to not take something that is
like standardized as like this is a bad voice is
a good good voice. It's very hard to not take

(28:32):
that in so, like I feel for you, and I
also think like you're not set up to succeed. I mean,
think about like microphones. Microphones are supposed to pick up
lower registers, like that's totally true, like feedback, when something
sounds bad to us, it's in a it's in a
high register. Um. When we think about like the voices
that we've grown up with our entire lives, Like even
the folks that make it on the radio that UM

(28:54):
identify as women usually have voices that are much more
in my register, Like your voice is register is not
something that we hear a lot of. Or when that
person does have a voice in that register, it's because
they're like the sidekick that's going to come in and
be like probably sexualized um or like I did see you,
or sillier things like that. So like we've I mean,

(29:16):
you've heard that your entire life, like that has been
presented to you, and this is your you are helping
to undo that damage for other people, hopefully, I hope.
So that's an interesting way to put it. What's what's
so embarrassing is that I'm a former smoker, and the
reason why I started smoking was because I thought it
would make my voice sound lower. I wanted to have
a sort of Kathleen Turner, you know, low voice, and

(29:39):
I thought, oh, I smoke, that will help. So I
started smoking intentionally for that reason and you no longer smoke.
I am so happy for you that you stepped away
from what sounds like self harm in the in the
but like, I mean, who also, who hasn't done that?
Like that's very relatable. I mean when I was in

(30:01):
my um like early teens, I had a really intense
eating disorder and I looked back at my life. Then
that's also when I was like, your hormones are kicking up.
I didn't know I was gay, but I felt like weird.
So something about my body didn't feel right. So then
I try to hyper control my body, like doing self
harm to try to get the result of like does

(30:22):
this make me normal? Now? Do I look like I
wear a skirt? You know? So it's like, um, God,
can we be free of this? I think the answer
is no. The answer is no. I think the answer
is no. But I think people. I think we're getting
to a point where people more people are speaking up
about these weird feelings that we really have all grown

(30:42):
up with and not really talked about. And I think
if someone listening, who is you leave a lot of
younger listeners, If younger listeners can hear this and think, like,
whatever it is that you feel weird about whether it's
your sexuality, your hair, your race, your your skin, your voice,
whatever thing that makes you feel like you'll never fit in.
It's okay, we're all see really dealing with this and
not talking about it, and it's okay. Yeah, you might

(31:03):
even turn it into a career. Like I mean, I
really think you know, not just diffusing like being queer,
but also like I was a little kid with crossed eyes.
I had crossed eyes and I woren I patch, and
like I had all sorts of stuff going on, So
I had to be really funny because like otherwise, who
was going to hang out with like the little pirate kid? Like,
who's hanging out with that kid? If she's not very charming?

(31:25):
So I mean you you can compensate um and hopefully
become more comfortable with yourself, but also like maybe use
that skill set in a different way down the line.
I love that again, reclaiming, you know, taking the power back. Absolutely,
it's like, looking back on it, that's kind of cute
with a little I. I bet you were. I don't

(31:46):
want to say anything, but that you were. It was
like kind of a cute. Look I didn't think it
was cute. Were you rocking the Jeane jacket then as well, Oh,
my god, friend, like so much, like so much ridiculous hair,
not a Jeane jacket, but like fully a bowl cut,
fully glasses with an eye patch under it. Oh that's
a look. Yeah, it's a real look. Because I also

(32:08):
had like bad, bad vision in a different way and
then you know, for sure braces but also like kind
of doing fine. Yeah, like kind of accepted by my peers.
Um again, So I think I just had to develop
like a chatty personality and that that would help me.
That's so interesting survival mechanisms. Yeah, it's interesting how our
survival mechanisms kind of manifest and then later you realize,

(32:31):
oh I was doing that because I felt weird, and
now it's a thing that's part of my identity. Yeah. Yeah,
now I'm gonna charge people, yeah to come see me
with my eyeballs and stuff. Yes, I enjoy it, absolutely,
I love it. More from Cameron after this quick break

(32:57):
and we're back. Let's get right back to Cameron. Let's
talk more about your show. So Take My Wife is hilarious.
If you haven't seen it, please please please watch it.
When your network first announced that it wouldn't be picking
up a second season. Social media was not having it.
There was hashtags, there was outcry, until eventually you guys
got picked up again. And to me, that really says

(33:18):
people are thirsting for representations of marginalized folks on screen.
And the fact that you know, we had this season
of something so great and so well done and so
authentic and so interesting and then oh that's it, you
get one taste. People weren't having it. I mean, it
does seem like we're thirsting for this, like people want this.
I have to believe that that's true. Well, I mean,

(33:39):
and I want to just make a tiny adjustment, which
is that So we had shot the second season and
then it was going to be edited, and then our
network folded, which was owned by NBC Universal, So our
network was like reabsorbed into NBC Universal. But the way
that it was distributed to see so like failed to exist.
So that is an extremely unusual position to be put in,

(34:00):
where we like had this whole thing. We were like,
I mean, it's it's here, um, and we didn't have
a way to put it out. So eventually, um, now
it's on iTunes, which is amazing. It was number number
one number one on iTunes for like two weeks, which
is wild because we found out on a Friday it
was going to be on iTunes, and it was on.

(34:20):
It was available the next Monday. We had no advanced,
advanced warning. We never even put out a press release.
We had no marketing budget, we had no pr budget.
It was literally just support of viewers and fans. And
so that to me is what is the amazing success story.
Not just that like on a less than indie film budget,
we were written up in the New York Times four
times in five weeks and not no, five times in

(34:42):
four weeks. Not just that we made it into Vanity
Fair all this awesome stuff. That that really was like, oh,
people are taking this seriously as a show. But then
also that like fans support, I mean, you know, this
is a business about money. This is a business about
money and things that haven't been proved out. It's really
hard to take a risk on. That's why Blank, That's
why like Black Panther matters, That's why Girls Trips matters.

(35:04):
That's why hopefully the success of Love Simon like that
being a movie that was the first LGBT movie that
was given like a full release like a full major
studio release wild And that's why I like, folks didn't
even have to Our show was cheap, Like you want
to make your money back, make a cheap show with me.

(35:26):
I swear to you. There's a there's a fan base
out there. We just saw it. I mean clearly there is.
Clearly there is something else I love about your show
is that it really I feel like it shows something
that we don't see that often, which is this authentic
representation of queer folks in love. And I'm just curious, like,
what's it like to be married to someone that is
also your like creative partner? Oh my god, really hard

(35:47):
but good, but really really good. Rha is well, I
mean they're the best person I know and so funny.
Thank god we think each other are funny, because otherwise
it would not work. Um, And I think the other
thing is like the thing you're talking about, the honest
representation of queer folks. I mean, we're the we're the

(36:10):
only show ever co created by an outmarried couple. Obviously,
marrige equality like basically happened yesterday, so that's not too shocking.
But um, when we see queer folks like maybe one
of the people on screen will be actually queer. That's
portraying a queer character. Maybe rarely is it too folks,

(36:32):
And rarely is it too people that have an existing relationship,
Like that's not a thing. I think it really does matter.
First of all, I support actors who are not who
are outside the community, who want to play queer roles
like cool, thank you, welcome, I will go see call
me by her name. But I think that if we
want to get to a place where like we really

(36:53):
know what our community is, what we really look like,
what it really looks like when we make out with
each other, I think we have to person more queer
folks in queer roles. Definitely. That's so funny. This is
kind of a weird t my story, but I remember
when I was quite young and I would watch women
on screen having sex with each other, and I would
always say like there was there was different moves that

(37:15):
I would see it. I would say, I don't feel
like this is actually how we do it. This is
I didn't I had never been with a woman at
that point, but I remember thinking like, this looks wrong.
I don't think this is how it's done. Come to
find out, all those scenes were not written by queer women, right,
and so we don't even like, we don't even see
the mechanics of it the way that they actually play out. Oftentimes,
you know, it's like it's like, oh, this is a

(37:37):
scene shot by men for men, And it really was
very confusing for me. I'm sure plenty of other folks
out there had that same experience. But I think it
just goes to show how many ridiculous tropes that we
see around queer folks on screen, right when they're not
written by the queer community, when they're not written I'm
not portrayed by queer actors, Like we have those ridiculous

(37:59):
tropes like at Your Gaze where the only time you
see a queer woman on TV is she's you know,
she dies at the end, or she's you know by
but just buy enough, you know, like you don't see
these real authentic representations, and it's just very confusing. Yeah,
it's also always kind of um it seems to be

(38:19):
more often than in the real world, conflated with like
feelings of sadness. So like, I think, yes, there are
coming out stories and there are moments where like somebody
who's newly out has conflicted is conflicted about kissing someone.
But that's not the only time we kiss each other.
Sometimes later we don't even smash each other against the wall.
You just have like normal kissing. Um, we're not even sad.

(38:42):
And then like that thing. Um, there's also a thing
that I see all the time. I like have coined
the term for it. It's called skydiving t M. That's
camera especial word. Don't steal that. Skydiving is when two
people with vaginas are on screen together and they're both
like seeming to have to be like filling each other
in a sexual way, but also all of their hands

(39:02):
are visible. What are the opening down there? What am
I doing? Those are the exact scenes I could say,
what how do it? Like? What is happening that this
is so pleasurable for both of you? Yeah, so that's skydiving. Um.
And then the other thing that I would say is, like,
like you said, the representation of like by folks as
like being chased or like that, there's not it just

(39:24):
is like really sad for by folks. The representation I think,
if you want to, if you want to, um see
like a great version of two actors on having awesome
on screen chemistry. I really like the movie Bound, Um,
which doesn't feature two actors who are well I will

(39:46):
say this, I don't know about one of them, um,
but but it's not like queer actors. It's um it's
the White House. He's first movie, which has the first movie,
and it's how they got the money to make the
matrix is so good that folks were like, well, yeah,
you should definitely make more movies. Um. But they hired
a sex choreographer. They hired like somebody who's in the
community to choreograph their sex scenes. And they look awesome.

(40:09):
They look really good and like tender and also like hot,
Like it doesn't have to be like not hot, but
it just looks right. It looks like right, it looks correct.
Everything that's happening. You're like, no, this is like really
cool and sexy, and this is also believable, and so
it has been done. Like just watch that if you're
gonna put it in your movie, just watch that. Yeah,
and that's it's so true. Like just get someone who

(40:30):
knows what they're talking about to help you with your scene.
Don't just choreograph what you think happens, because that's very
confusing for like fourteen year old girls who are watching
TV and they're like, what's happenings? Certainly, and also if
there's gonna be like dudes that are going to be
making up with each other, can you, um maybe not
pan to a tree constant? Oh my god. Always always
like you get a little bit of the action and
then it like pans to like the stars or something.

(40:52):
It's really that makes me so worried for like young
dudes who man like so so young, so like for
young women, and it's like women are always having sex
on camera, but it's like bad unsatisfying sex, and then
for dudes, it's like you don't get to have sex,
you don't even show it. Yeah, Like because this is
two gross for this audience. I was just on a
plane recently and I noticed, um that like all the

(41:14):
LGBT movies had a content warning. And then like I watched,
I mean, this is this is camera neespecially don't want
to plane like trying to relax or whatever. I saw
one LGBT movie had a had a content warning, and
I was like, huh, I wonder So then I looked
at all of them that were like four on this
movie and on this plane, and I was like, they
all had like this very intense warning. And then I

(41:36):
looked at the notebook because I was like, I know
there's nudity in this movie. I know there's nudity. I
know there's like a sex scene, no content warning at all.
That's still where we are. When people talk about forward movement,
like do we even need all assignment, It's like, yeah,
on a plane, there has to be a content warning
before two women kiss. It's so ridiculous. Sometimes sometimes I

(41:56):
want to I find myself feeling really happy at how
far we've got sometimes, and then moments like that, I think, wow,
you really have them come that fire. It's like a
weird two steps forward, one steps back kind of thing.
I mean, I think part of that is it's kind
of it's the whole thing that we're talking about. I
think that we focused so much on creating ally ship

(42:16):
outside of the community, which by the way, had to happen, like,
of course that's how we got here. But now I
feel like I want to hear from us, like I
want to hear what our stories are, our feelings. I
want to hear about more than marriage. I want to
hear about more than bathrooms. I want to hear about
those things, but I want to hear about like, Hey,
what's it like to go to the doctor? Can you
make it through the scanner at the t s A line?

(42:39):
Because like if you're not presenting, like they don't know
whether to pick pink or blue and there's only two options,
and like now you're being padded down, you know, Like
I want to hear all of these things that we
go through on a daily basis because I feel like,
I mean, I don't know, maybe people won't care. Maybe
I feel like I always do better with more knowledge
about other communities, Like I always have more affection and

(43:01):
more solidarity the more information I have to I mean
when it is having less information ever served anybody better?
When the president was running for office? Yes, really, like honestly,
do you have information? Throw it in the trap? I
don't even can you wipe my brain? Okay? Then flashy

(43:23):
things exactly? I don't want to learn anything else? Please
and I and I started knowing nothing. Yeah, I love it.
I love it. It's so true though, um so, who
who are who out there? Do you feel like it's
making the content that you want to see? That kind
of content that you just described to their folks that
should be at our radar. I guess one person I
would recommend that I think is just like really interesting

(43:46):
um is Brittany Nichols, who wrote on the second season
of Take My Wife, who's also in UM two episodes
in that season, and then also like on a on
a freaking dime. UM made this indie film called Suicide
Kale that is like mostly women of color, really small

(44:07):
cast and all in one location. And I think, especially
if you like a creative person out there, I think
you can get it. You can get it like a
lot of places Suicide Kale k a l e UM.
But if you're somebody who's just like how can I
I just recently had Brittany on my podcast too, which
is called Query, and Brittany like went through literally like

(44:28):
a little bit of how she funded it, but it's
like it's like not a ton of dollars and a
lot of called in favors and a lot of writing
to something like it's one location, so she was able
to do it. Anyway, you should just watch that movie
and been like like your wheels spin about what you
can do if you are entering this field, Like what

(44:50):
can I do. That's in this realm because like that's
why we hired her. We saw that movie, That's why
we hired her, and then Brittany continues to have jobs.
So I love it. I mean, it's also such an
important bit about it where you watch, you consume media
like this and instead of just watching it and saying,
oh that was great, make have like marrying on it
and say like how how do I fit into this?
You know? Can I watch more movies by Quip books

(45:13):
of color? Can I fund them? Can I recommend them? Like?
Like what is my can I make them right? Like?
What is my role in this? I love that. I mean,
I think it's really interesting to to look um also
at how folks have, like we were talking about earlier
in this in this conversation, like how folks have jump
started their own careers. There's also a really great show
that you can watch just on YouTube for free that's

(45:33):
called Her Story. It's like created by Gen Richards and
Laura zach and Um and it's it's like incredible what
they were able to pull off. And then essentially that's
their calling card. Now I'm not saying that everybody can
do this. One cannot not not everybody wants to get
into television, and also not everybody can like bring their
friends together. And I mean there's barriers to entry for

(45:56):
every type of person. But but um, what I like
about this is looking at how the diversity of the Internet,
like that the Internet just creating different paths, pathways allows
us to see these voices like aren't an HBO yet
but probably will be? Yeah, yeah, because I mean think
about it like a you know, power house at HBO
gotta start on YouTube, right making a weapon? Yes, And

(46:17):
so maybe maybe looking also at I mean, because I've
been in the position of hiring, I will just say
that it is really easy to hire somebody who's work
you can see. And so whatever field that you're in,
if there's anything that you can make that supports you
getting hired. If you're somebody who's from like a an

(46:38):
underserved community or an underrepresented it doesn't matter to try
to put that little extra effort in that that and
by the way, this is actually a lot of effort,
but to get yourself noticed, definitely. So tell me about Query.
It's it's one of my favorite podcasts. If people aren't
listening to it, you're missing out. Um tell us about it.
Oh yeah, well, so after the election, I don't know
how you felt. I was sad. I have spent the

(47:04):
majority of my career speaking to folks outside of the
queer community, and I felt like it was working, you know.
I felt like, Um, I had a career, I had
a lot of support from my peers. I felt like
I was changing minds all this stuff. And then that

(47:26):
election happened and I was like, oh was I You know,
so I think what it made me reevaluate was like
who do I need to be with? Do I need
to be with the folks that needs that, that need
their minds changed about me? Or do I need to
like be with the folks who are really scared right now?

(47:48):
And um, that's really what Query came from, was like
wanting to create something that everybody is invited to. It
is free, there's no barrier to entry. You could listen
if you have well I guess you have to have
a phone or computer. Um, but it really is for
this quere community specifically, because like I said, I want
to hear our stories. I want to hear the diversity

(48:09):
of our stories. I want to hear about more than
coming out. I want to hear about, like, if we're
gonna talk about coming out, I don't necessarily want to
spend the whole time on your parents. I want to
talk about you, like how did you feel coming out?
Because we don't we don't even get to be the
stars of our own stories, like in our friend groups,
sometimes in our families, in our churches, like, we're not

(48:30):
the stars in our own stories in life, no wonder,
we're not the stars of our own stories on TV. Yeah,
and that's true because when you think about the sort
of typical coming out story when you see it on TV,
it's about the parents and sort of how they dealt
with it, grappled with it, and that's certainly part of
the story. But yeah, you don't get the story that's
how did you feel? How to take me through what
you were going through? You really don't get that that often. Yeah, absolutely,

(48:53):
I mean again, I think faith is a really good
example of this, Like we spend a lot of time
on like, well, this church just disagree, you know, and
we accept that as if churches aren't made of human
beings who are looking at another looking another person in
the face and saying like you are going to Hell
or you disgust me, or you're not welcome here. And
you know, for me, I grew up really Catholic, and

(49:14):
when I came out, I really hated myself because I
didn't think i'd have a future. I thought I was
like going going to literal hell, which was an actual place,
is what I thought. And I think that I don't
hear that story that much. I don't hear the story
about the person who's like, like, this isn't some this
isn't actual God that is talking to me right now.

(49:36):
This is a priest, or this is a or this
is a teacher at my school or whatever. This is
a human um who read a book that was written
by somebody else in a different language two thousand years
ago and loosely translated multiple times. So I feel like,
let's hear about us, let's hear about what we've survived.
I mean, young folks, like like younger than Oscar folks.

(49:59):
I've feel like we don't even it's like the AIDS
crisis that that's a generation ago. It's not that's not
long ago, right, do young folks even like know about that?
I mean, I it's interesting because the way that it's
dealt with now it makes it seem like it's so
far away, like, oh, this was the Dark Ages, and

(50:21):
it actually wasn't that long ago. No, those folks are
like our parents age, right, And yeah, it makes you
wonder about I often wonder about young queer folks, younger
than us, what their media landscape looks like in terms
of what's out there, you know, what are they consuming,
what messages are they internalizing about themselves, and how they
fit into the world. I think about that quite a bit. Yeah,

(50:42):
I mean it is obviously, it's like it seems a
little bit so the better I think the better stuff
is that it seems like a little less performative. I
mean the stuff that like I grew up with was was,
um the cast of cruel intentions like kissing on the
MTV movie Like that was for me, Like representation was
like a moderately exploitative but very fun kiss you know. Um.

(51:06):
And then like now it seems like it's not just
that it's not just one kiss a year as sme
as we get like many is twenty seven, yeah, um
we there are some non binary folks on TV. There
are some folks who are like both people of color
and queer, like as if those things could intersect. You
can you can be one or the other. You can't, can't, doesn't,

(51:27):
doesn't happen, doesn't happen. Oh my god, it's amazing. Yeah.
So it does seem like they're there's there's more, um,
But I have no idea. Do you talk to like
a lot of young queer folks. I talked to some
of them. Um. In my previous life, I worked for
Planned Parenthood, and I might My job involved talking specifically
to young folks like students, and there was a great

(51:47):
work and I was so blessed to do it. But honestly,
like the young folks that I talked to were all
like a different level. They were sort of like what
you were talking about. They were not like, oh, the
shows we get sucked. They were I'm making a show
in my dorm room and I'm going to rule the world.
They were on a different level. I know, I know,
I've been, I've been to. Uh. Something that I do

(52:08):
sometimes is perform at colleges, and that is always like
challenging because they're because you're right, there's like there's a
like an excitement and a dissemination of ideas and younger
folks that I think is way faster than what I
grew up with, Like I was trying to learn all
of it through books or a human being, and so
then these folks have had access to the Internet their

(52:30):
entire lives, and that's a lot more information. Sometimes I'm
getting like snapping when I met shows because folks are
just like on my vibe and slash. I'm like, no,
I'm teaching you that this is the job of a
stand up common Wait, have you had this idea before?
I love it? Well, I think when it was pretty cool, Yeah,
it's it is amazing, And I think, like when you

(52:52):
translate that to like politics and activism, it is not
surprising to me that the people who are kind of
really at the forefront of a lot of our big
exciting political momentums right now are young folks. Because let's
be real, Like a teenager with Twitter is powerful, right,
a teenager with a laptop is powerful, And it's not
surprising to me that they're leading movements and leading marches
and impacting policy and having an impact because you know,

(53:15):
we've we've spent so long saying, oh, these young kids,
they're not doing anything. They're eating tide pods, forget them,
forget them. And it's like, no a teenager on Twitter.
If a bunch of teenagers wanted to drag one particular
person on Twitter, I would be worried for that person, right,
like you can't you The teens are powerful, right. The
thing that I'm excited about re r e uh. This

(53:37):
the youth that's happening right, the youth like movement that's
happening right now, especially around guns. Like this is so
if you're a young person, maybe and this is not
true for everybody, you don't yet have to worry about
like getting fired from your job because your bossies your
political views on the internet, um, like taking care of kids.
You don't maybe you have to worry about your own
financial stability, so like you're maybe not working a job

(54:01):
seventy or eighty hours a week, not that school isn't taxing,
and also not that this is true for every teenager,
but there is like something to the like a little
bit more freedom away from capitalism, which eventually, you know,
capitalism is the reason that we're having a problem with
guns is because folks can't like turn down the moolah

(54:22):
behind the guns. Like, so if you're if you are
if you enter the workforce and you are then part
of the capitalist system, is a lot harder to like
have these finite stances. It is just it's harder. It's
not harder for me. I'm a stand up comic. I
get to go on the road or on the internet
and say whatever I want. But it might be harder
for any of your listeners who have like some day

(54:42):
job and three kids and they like can't lose that
job because they need to take care of those kids.
Like I get it. You know, not everybody has a platform, um,
and the opportunity to have a platform. This is very
exciting because I feel like just a couple of years ago,
we were looking at folks in this same position, like
young people who had not yet entered the work workforce,
that we're saying things like, well, do we even still
need feminism because like women have jobs now, And to me,

(55:06):
that's like, just wait, just wait until you enter the workforce.
I promised to you, I promise you we still need feminism.
But now it feels like there's been this really cool shift.
It is, um one of the positive effects of this
silliness that's happening right now, UM in our political culture
is that like young people are taking advantage of this time, like,

(55:30):
if you have the flexibility, please do that. That is awesome.
I'm I'm like in love with you for doing that. Yeah,
and it's it's I mean, I find myself inspired by
the youth today where it's so easy to be cynical
and think, oh, we'll never make change and what's the point.
Like it's i mean, particularly Trump in the White House,

(55:50):
Like it's very easy to disengage and check out, and
to see these young people not checking out, checking all
the way sucking in right, Like I'm not leaning out,
I'm leaning in. And you know it's it's it's really
powerful and inspiring. I know, it's like very the last Jedi, right,
So there's like a dark force emerging in the world,
and so then like a light force had to emerge also,

(56:10):
which is the youth like coming together to Um to
be Ray the hero of the Lesson. I've actually not
seen that star Okay, well I get the reference. Um,
I mean you know it's a Star Wars reference. Basically.
It's what is interesting about it is that there's like

(56:31):
a new like there's an awakened evil and and so
Um the Jedi Knights have been like dormant because there
wasn't such a strong evil. So that's that, to me,
is kind of what's going on here, And you don't
want to You don't want to go into an election
that way, like, well, if if if my candidate loses,
then at least they'll be like an awakened good in
the world. Like I don't think that's a good way

(56:51):
to operate, because there will also be a ton of
damage because a lot of program made that point like
oh well, if Trump wins, at least there will be
a revel luction and they'll be blood running in the
streets and blah blah blah. I thought that's great for you,
but think about who would actually be hurt by that? Absolutely,
I find and I think that point is really really
off base to to be like almost raw rawing it

(57:14):
and excited about it. Also, people would say that about art.
I don't know if you were seeing that at all, like, well,
there's gonna be really great art made because during times
of stress, like really great artists made. This is not
worth it, This is never worth it. This great art
is never worth like somebody's life of course, um, it's
never worth like deportation, it's ever worth health insurance going away.
Of course it's not. Um, but what is does seem

(57:35):
to be true is that there is like this force
of good in the world that, um, if we could like,
let's just keep going regardless of who's in the White House,
Let's have that happen. Let's have that happen. Won't that
be great? Yeah? And it doesn't happen. There's a better
person in the White House. And then there's like a
strong good on top of good, like, oh my god,
what did that happen? Good on good? It could only

(57:55):
be good? Wow? Wow. Well, Cameron, thank you so much
for being here today. Where can folks find out more
about all the awesome stuff that you're up to? Yea,
So Cameron has posito dot com is where you can
find tour dates things like that, because I tour around
doing stand up. You can listen to my podcast Query
qu E r Y, or you listen to my podcast
Put your Hands Together. That's a stand up podcast. Or

(58:16):
you can watch my show Take My Wife that's on iTunes.
That's so many things, so many things, so many things.
It was this was a great conversation than this is
the pleasure is mine. Thank you. Well, I'm such a
big fan of Cameron, as you could probably tell them
that interview. I was very much fan girling, and not
just because I think she's so cool. I also am

(58:36):
just very inspired by how she has taken it upon
herself to create the kind of content that she wants
to see in the world. And the world is a
better place than we have representation like that, And I
know that because of the work that she's done, somebody
doesn't have to settle for a movie like Lost and
Delirious where they die or you know, watch an entire

(58:56):
hour and a half long movie for one girl on
girl kiss because you want to You want to see
yourself that badly. Because of work like this, you know,
folks can see themselves in ways that are more authentic.
My heart is warm at the thought of more content
like this and that maybe, yes, someone listening to this
um will go out be inspired to create their own

(59:17):
We would love that. So if you're doing that or
you want to do that, we want to hear all
about it. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast. You can find us on Instagram at stuff
But I've never told you, and where can folks in
those emails, Annie, you can send them to mom Stuff
at how stuff works dot com.