October 15, 2012 • 33 mins
Did a study really determine 182 days to be the optimum amount of time to wait? Listen in to learn why waiting for sex shouldn't be a numbers game (and how to know when you're ready).
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're asking the question
how long should you wait to have sex? Not in
terms of your first sexual experience, but in terms of
(00:26):
meeting someone you know if you it's This is a
very common question, I think, especially in heterosexual dating relationships.
There's a question of how long do you wait? How
many dates do you wait for, or how many minutes
post handshake do you wait? Because apparently we are very
(00:51):
concerned that if you don't wait long enough, you will
be doomed to be single for the rest of your
life and be called name yes mean names, We don't. Yeah.
All the answers to these questions are pretty loaded, depending
on depending on where people are coming from. Who are
answering it? Yeah, and uh, the reason why we wanted
(01:11):
to talk about this, and we'll get more in depth
into this study. But there was some research that came
out of Cornell University in August that was published in
the Journal of Marriage and Family that said, and well,
this was the headline at least because this was widely circulated.
Not so surprisingly because the Internet loves scientific studies about sex,
(01:34):
and it said that the optimum number of days to
wait was a hundred and eighty two. And then you know,
I when Christen emailed me that I responded, isn't that
like half of a year? Which so you I mean,
you probably know then where I'm coming from on this
if I responded so vehement ley. So um. Even though
we we don't talk in the magazine parlance too often
(01:58):
in the podcast, I feel like this is one of
those opportunities when we do want to consult lady and gentlemen.
Meg's because this is something that comes up so often
in magazines like Marie Claire and Cosmo and Esquire. So
to kick things off, there was a survey that was
(02:21):
commissioned by jointly by Esquire and Marie Claire to find
out the differences between how long dudes and girls women,
men heterosexual wait to have sex. Right. Uh, It turns
out that the average number of dates before having sex
is three for men versus five for women. So what's
(02:44):
happening there? Does does the guy go out on the
third date and like he leaves the date and hooks
up with someone and then goes home, whereas the woman
is waiting, like goes home and waits for two more dates.
It's funny how these numbers never match up. Well but yeah,
but the whole same thing. It's like a flip flop
though with waiting until marriage because of men, uh, wait
(03:06):
for marriage to have sex versus nine percent of women. Yeah,
and or at least like men who read Esquire well,
yes and take surveys or men who read Marie Claire
and here is a big no brainer. Men, according to
the survey, were more likely to be satisfied after a
one night's stand. That's probably because statistically, men are more
(03:26):
likely to reach orgasm after one night stands. There's there
aren't all those societal hang ups about one night stands
and sexual stigmas. Uh. And while men were three times
as likely to be satisfied, women were twice as likely
to feel regret or shame after a one night's stand.
And I have a feeling that it might have something
(03:48):
to do with this constant pondering of how long should
you wait and what it says about you if you
wait a certain amount of time? Right, Because you know,
there's the whole thing about out the ice cream truck
given away samples, cow's milk, et cetera. So let's get
into some research beyond just magazine surveys. There was a
(04:14):
B y U study that came out in two thousand
ten that got a lot of coverage as well. Yeah,
because they basically said, you're not going to be happy
unless you wait wait for marriage. Um. They they said
that if sex happens too early, it quote overwhelms good
decision making and keeps couples in a relationship that might
not be the best for them in the long run.
(04:36):
So they looked at more than two thousand people in
their first marriages. Average age was about thirty six, and
they categorized these people as having early sex in the relationship,
late sex so waiting a while, or having no sex
until marriage. And just you know, I know this is
a b y U study, but they did have a
wide range of religious affiliations that they were looking at
with these people. They found out in the study this
(04:58):
you know, a lot of self reporting and what that.
But they found out that the relationships fared better the
longer people waited, with those sleeping together before a month
showing the worst outcomes, and those who waited until marriage
reporting better. Relationship stability and satisfaction, and better sexual quality
and communication. What do you think about that? Well, I
(05:18):
think there are some some good points in there, such as, uh,
giving a relationship some time to develop trust with people,
especially if you're uh the sample population or or exclusively
married couples. So probably when they were looking back, these
(05:40):
people might have been more relationship minded to begin with,
and they probably wanted to develop some emotional rapport before
jumping into the sack. Um. But it's still there's still
this issue of correlation versus causation that I feel like
a lot of the rest on delaying sex seems to
(06:04):
just skip over. For instance, this was something pointed out
in the Economists when they were reporting on this study,
and they said that researchers don't know why people who
waited have better relationship. Maybe it's the sexual delay. Maybe
it's the sort of people who want to wait are
somehow better relationship building. Maybe they have like higher emotional
(06:24):
intelligence than people who, you know, just wait a few
minutes until their hand shape. Um. And also, I mean,
I feel like this is telling to live. Science reported
on the study as well, and they were interviewing one
of the lead of searchers, and he talked about how
almost of the couples are essentially sexual. I don't know
(06:45):
what essentially sexual means, but you know, I'll let listeners
just fill in those blanks. They said were essentially sexual
within the first or second time they went out. But quote,
we suspect that if you ask these same couples at
this early stage of a relationship, do you trust this
person to watch your pet for a weekend? Many could
not answer this in the affirmative, meaning that they are
(07:06):
more comfortable letting people into their bodies than they are
with them watching their cat. Okay, I take issue with
this quote because to me, this points out a potential
methodological flaw in this study because clearly and here I
am making assumptions that the psychologists was making assumptions about
(07:30):
how people should architect their relationships. Now, I totally see
where you're coming from that quote through me. Also, and
you know cats, you don't never have anybody come over
to watch cats you anyway. Yeah, And also, it's not
a question on the first or second date whether or
not someone you trust someone to come over and watch
your pets. It's more things like do you trust someone
(07:53):
to sexually disclose that they have an STD or something
like that, or do you trust a person to wear
a condom if you ask them to? These are the
kinds of questions. Why are we talking about pets? Cares
about pets? Yeah, I don't even have pets. I have
plants that I really should water more. Um. But so
moving on to a different study, Christen references Cornell University
(08:14):
study back all the way in August of this year.
It said, okay, well yeah, sure, maybe wait a little,
but the issue is more about cohabitation, which I thought
was interesting. They reviewed data from six hundred married and
cohabitating couples and found that rapid sexual involvement, which sounds exciting,
but it's just you know, getting getting sexually involved quickly,
(08:36):
along with cohabitation, affects the long term relationship quality. And
they found that couples who do move rapidly into sexual relationships,
more than a third of them reported having sex within
one month of starting the relationships. So this is sort
of this is their their audiences, is who they're looking at.
They found that women and men definitely had a different
(08:58):
view of what it means to get in evolved sexually
with someone quickly. Yeah, but with this sample population, UH,
women tended to view an early entry into sexual relationships
as being negatively associated with marital quality UM and the
researchers also thought from this that perhaps women see early
(09:21):
sexual activity as having a greater symbolic value as to
the relationship commitment. You start doing it, this means you're
for real disease in a bigger way. Whereas for the men,
the speed of entry into sect the sexual relationship was
completely unrelated to their perception of overall relationship and marital quality.
(09:47):
And again, I think that that might have something to
do with this constant question of this timeline that we
are supposed to follow, although no one knows what the
timeline is UM. But I think it's worth talking about
this Cornell study because there are all these nuances within
it in terms of how these couples all had children together,
(10:12):
they were all living together. The bottom line of the
relationship highlighted living together more so than jumping into bed together,
you know, in the first month. But the headlines and
the reporting that came out on it all said, hey, everybody,
just wait a hundred and eighty two days. Women, you
(10:32):
will hate yourself if you don't wait a hundred and
eighty two days to sleep with him, and he's gonna
not want to stick around. You better put that sex
calendar up on your wall. Check off exactly a hundred
and eighty two days. Maybe we should start, you know,
selling two day sex calendar and then have a ribbon
that you can cut, oh at the end of it
and confetti. Yeah, or maybe it looks like a a
(10:54):
thong string. But I like, I like this discussion that
the study is having about cohabitation because they say that
it's cohabitation that drives the association between relationship quality and
relationship tempo. They did point to early sexual activity as
being linked to subsequent cohabitation and less satisfying marriages. Kind
(11:16):
of the idea that if you have sex really fast
and maybe in in because they said that in a
woman's mind that's sort of an indicator of relationship commitment
and all this stuff. So if you have sex early on,
you feel like you have this foundation of commitment and
then well, well let's just move in together. Well wait
a second though, back up, because also we've got to
(11:38):
remember the child care aspect of this. Indeed, maybe this
was something that Amanda has pointed out over on slate,
maybe there should have been more of an examination into
birth control practices because perhaps the reason why they're moving
in together is because, uh, they were practicing sex in
some way that would have allowed a pregnancy to happen,
and now there's a baby, and so now they have
(11:59):
to move together. Yeah. Yeah, so they're looking at how
this early cohabitation, you know, people start feeling trapped and
then they're not as satisfied in their either relationship or
their marriage that happens later. So there's a lot of
moving parts. Yeah, And I will say that there was
an interview with Sharon Sassler, who was the lead author
of the study, which was called the Tempo of Sexual
(12:21):
Activity and Later Relationship Quality, which I like to call
out just because I like the idea of the tempo
of sexual activity, like there's a metronome. She brought up
a good point though, in an interview about this research,
saying that, um, they wanted to look into whether quote,
sexual dependencies had replaced emotional compatibility. And I think that
(12:43):
that's that's a good way to to maybe think about
this whole waiting game that so often comes up. It's
not so much a timeline thing. Perhaps but thinking about
sexual dependency versus emotional compatibility. But more on that later
because at long last, in August of two thousand ten,
(13:05):
actually before obviously, this Cornell study came out, UH University
of Iowa study found that guess what, early sex does
not doom relationships. Hey hey again, take your tape falling down? Um? Yeah,
(13:26):
they found it. While relationship quality might be higher for
people who waited until things were serious rather than those
people who hooked up, the sex itself, they say, is
not to blame for the disparity. And this goes back
to something that Kristen touched on earlier about maybe it's
just your personality type. Like if people who just are
not wanting a relationship or maybe are not good at
(13:48):
serious relationships, maybe these are the people who are hooking up.
So if you get somebody together, to get two people together,
one who's just in for the hookup and one who
actually is pursuing a serious relationship, well that's doomed to
fail no matter when those two people have sex. So
it's it's they're saying, it's more maybe just about your
personal drive when you want to have sex, whether you
(14:08):
want a relationship. So sociologist Anthony Pike, who was the
researcher with that University of Iowa study, said, Okay, so
our findings indicate that it's not so much this sex
issue that we are constantly getting hung up on, but
(14:29):
more something to do with people and the actual relationships
between people. So he suggested that what was affecting relationship quality,
at least according to their data, was that unmarried couples
in those with children had lower relationship quality, and couples
with positive ties to each other's relatives had higher relationship quality.
(14:49):
But again, i mean, there's so many correlation causation issues
still even in that, because when you boil it down
to individual relationships, um, you know, I'm sure that you
can slice it and dice it so many different ways.
I mean, I'm sure the couples with children are just
very tired. Sure, there's like their parents listening or not
(15:11):
was shaking their fists at their iPod. But it was
still refreshing to see some empirical acknowledgement that hey, maybe
we should think not so much about the length of time,
but rather what people not just guys, because let's not
(15:32):
let's not do minutis service and say every straight guy
just wants to have sex with anyone at any point
and does not care about waiting at all. I think
that that's a reductionists as much as it is that
every woman wants to play the game according to the
book the Rules and wait like eight years or something
(15:52):
because we're terrified and insecure and and scared that if
we have sex then no one's really gonna like us
at the end of a day. And um, I don't know,
I mean, I feel like to this whole the fear
of I mean because also, let me just say this,
if you want to wait to have sex or just
not have sex at all, that's completely fine. The problem
(16:13):
is constantly putting the onus, particularly on women. And this
does focus particularly on heterosexual women. There were no studies
that we found looking into any gay populations whatsoever. Um,
and always it was this fear of too soon sex relationships,
(16:35):
reminding me of how especially for women, it's that whole
fear of say, having too many sexual partners, like does
my body look okay? It's all of these all these
hang ups that are I feel like I keeps saying
hang ups, Um, but there's so much wrapped up in
this question exactly. Yeah, what what You're worried that society
(16:58):
will think about you, what the man will say about you, Like, oh,
I feel pressured to have sex because you know, he's
a man. He wants me to have sex with him,
but then the whole life will But then if I
do have sex with him, he won't actually like me. Well,
and then on the opposite sides, on either side of
that spectrum, you have, well, hey, what if I would
like to have sex and I just want to have sex, okay,
(17:18):
then you are deemed a loose woman. Uh. And then
if you don't want to have sex at all, and
you are a virgin, and you're an adult virgin, then
they're all the things that come with that too. Of people,
you know, the people saying that maybe you're too prudish man.
Maybe it is a hundred and eighty two days. I
(17:39):
don't know if if there, if they it would be
simpler if there was some kind of magic number. And no,
I'm not saying eighty two days is it, but for
some people it might be. I mean, I think that's
the moral of the story is Yeah, it could be.
I mean, I I personally think with my personal relationships
that waiting a little it. And you know what, again,
(18:01):
I don't know what that time frame is, but waiting
a little bit to the point where you feel like
you're comfortable with the person. And this is I'm talking
about relationship stuff, relationshippinus, not like just hooking up or whatever,
Like that's a totally different game. I'm talking about Like
I'm talking about like, when I feel like I've met
someone that I really want to have a relationship with,
I think it's better to wait however long you feel
(18:24):
as appropriate to learn about the person, trust the person,
whether it's to watch your cats or not. Um, just
feel like, okay, well yeah I wanna you know, I
feel like I know this person and have a foundation
because in my experience, you know, dumb things can happen
when you build a relationship just on the sex foundation
and not on the knowing the person foundation. Right, Because
(18:47):
like Saster was talking about that sexual dependency versus emotional compatibility,
and you know what I'm going to I'm gonna theorize
without any like data in front of my face to
back this up. I would say that finding the emotional
compatibility is much harder to find than some kind of
(19:11):
sexual compatibility or sexual dependency. So if you are a
relationship minded then yeah, you don't want to confuse the
two and you don't want to set yourself up with
unrealistic expectations. But it also is not helping us that
the magazines that a lot of women are reading and
(19:33):
that is dispensed on the internet to younger, single straight
people is just keeping us in this tail spin. Yeah.
And it's framing it in as sort of a respect
a self respect will he respect you kind of issue? Yeah,
And it's all about and the onus again, it is
(19:55):
all on the woman. Yeah. So this is from Cosmo,
as everybody knows, my favorite magazine. So, um Cosme. I
talked to relationship expert Ryan C. Browning. I don't know
what that means, um, but the decision here was you
should wait because quote, once you give up the goods,
you lose the upper hand in the dating power dynamics.
(20:18):
So if you have sex too soon, he's not under
your spell anymore. Oh man, Well that's too bad, because
you know what I want is a relationship that is
based completely on power. Uh yeah. He Browning also goes
on to say that you know what, sex also creates
a false sense of intimacy, so you crave commitment, you
(20:42):
dumb women. Yeah, but that's also hey, you know what,
let's not strip away intimacy from sex either. That's another
form of moralizing, saying that there's nothing good that can
come from a sexual relationship as well. Um and Browning
also wants you to say no because men loves a
(21:03):
challenge and if you do, the sex will be better
and you'll trust your feelings more because early sex can
make you overlook red flags. Now, yes, does all of
that oxytocin released in your brain promote feelings of bonding
with someone who maybe if you haven't known them that long,
like maybe you are building bridges to nowhere? Sure, that
(21:25):
can happen, but it's also let's let's keep in mind
self awareness that can happen. But moving on from Cosmo,
let's go to Marie Claire Our things over there. Well,
this this fantastic sex and the single guy call him
also tells people to wait, but he he frames it
in more of like a guys need to stop pressuring
(21:45):
girls into sex kind of thing. Yeah, women, it was
it was like, women stop spoiling men with sex when
they want it. I really love because we should train
them like dogs. Yeah, because he was saying, okay, so,
why why are these guys pressuring girls and to have
sex early on in the relationship, and he cites things
like their upbringing maybe they never learned to treat women
(22:06):
with respect. Side note to pick on my roommate. My roommate,
who is a dude, does think it's important to wait
if he's getting into a relationship. And he cited his
deeply ingrained respect for women that he learned from his mama.
That's nice. So but yeah, so anyway, moving on, Okay,
so he also talks about, like, you know, other women
(22:27):
being spoiled by other women, like Kristen said, like, possibly
the dude who's pressuring you to have sex has been
quote unquote rewarded by other women giving into his pressure. Yeah,
I mean and I and I I'm not going to
say that those kinds of cultural influences in certain circles
don't exist. But also here's something sex and a single
(22:49):
guy call um writer at Marie Claire like, maybe he
doesn't want a relationship. It could be as simple as that.
Also as simple for a female who does not want
a relationship, or I should say woman. Sometimes people get
annoyed and I say female instead of woman and now
heading over to the New Yorker of the online x
(23:12):
y sites ask men dot com. Uh, they break it
down like this. Basically, they offer a handy guide for
guys out there who want to determine whether or not
women are worth keeping around based on how long she
waits to um to have sexual intercourse and guess what. Okay,
(23:34):
listen up, gals and guys. If she waits six months,
about that hundred and eighty two days, ask men says,
you'll think it's amazing because you're desperate. She's a keeper
because she's rational and doesn't jump into things. Do we
do we even need to follow that up with a
witty equip I don't think so. But let's just jump
(23:54):
down to a first night fling questions to ask yourself, man,
does she do this all the time? Or is it
that women are becoming more aggressive? I want to break
the ballpoint pen that I'm holding in my hand again.
Let me reiterate to everyone out there, wait, as long
as you want to have sex, don't have sex at all.
(24:17):
Have sex the first time you meet someone safely. But wow,
that kind of advice, it's doing a disservice to all
of us because it's creating false continually creating false expectations
and ignoring um any like kind of healthy relationship psychology.
(24:39):
But since we've been, uh, you know, kind of giving
these magazines a hard time, I will say Glamour dot
com offered a decently nuanced perspective on the question. This
was in their Smitten blog from two thousand and eight,
and and the writer talks about, how, uh, in the past,
(25:02):
I've usually been the super slow girl in college. I
waited four months with my sophomore year boyfriend and then
two months with my senior year boyfriend. And then she says,
by the time I met my current boyfriend, I was
twenty eight. And here's the part where I was like, hey,
all right, here we go. I was twenty eight and
more confident, comfortable, and head over heels form we slept
(25:25):
together on the third date. All right, But that I
think that point where she's talking about she was more
confident and comfortable. She knew herself, she knew what she wanted,
and the time that she waited, whether it was the
third date or the fourth month, the hundred and eighty
second day, it would not probably matter because she knew
(25:46):
herself well enough to to throw all of this ridiculous
advice out the window. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what
we're saying, Like, whatever feels appropriate for you and the
person that you're with. I mean, you know yourself, are
you do you want to get to know this person?
Do you feel already comfortable with this person? Does it
(26:07):
not matter? You know? Like you were, you were a woman,
you're a grown up. You can make this choice for yourself,
and you're a man too. Again, It's like, I think
it's I think it's wrong too to assume that the
guys are just light years, you know, away from where
we stand on this issue. And also too, Hey, guess
(26:30):
what if you meet somebody and they're pressuring you and
not respecting things like consent and sexual safety and all
of that, get out, Just get out and leave find
somebody better. Okay, I think I think we've answered this question.
How long should you wait to have sex? Caroline? As
(26:51):
long as you feel is appropriate for you and your partner.
There you go, and don't let society shame you otherwise
for waiting too long, for not waiting long enough. I'm
gonna say arbitrary question. As long as you got yourself
in check, your relationship in check, and safety in check,
(27:13):
there we go. I'm not gonna judge you, Caroline, Are
you going to judge them? No? Good, I don't know.
It's no judgment zone here, tiny closet sized studio. So
I am very curious to here what people have to
say about this. And again also uh from not in
a sexual listeners out there too, like why I mean,
(27:37):
is this just something that that straight people are totally
hung up on that is like not so much of
an issue in gay communities or have researchers just once
again overlooked entire populations of sexually active people. Very curious
to hear people's thoughts on this, on waiting, let us
know what you think. Are we being too lais a
fair about the whole thing? Um? Let us know all
(28:01):
of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is
where you can send them, and of course you can
head over to our Facebook page and leave a comment
there or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. But before
we jump into a listener mail, we have a quick
word on behalf of our friends at Netflix who helped
make this podcast possible, so you know today we talked
(28:25):
about this whole issue of how long should you wait?
Should you wait? Does it matter? What difference does it make?
How do you feel? Who have you slept with? Yeah? What?
What's what's your deal? Well, so I think to help
you put your issues in perspective, you can head over
to Netflix dot com because they were so kind to
bring us today's episode of Sminty and try watching Chasing Amy,
(28:48):
which shows what can happen when you might get a
little judge with someone's sexual past. But you're in luck
because not only should you head over to Netflix dot com,
but as a new member and a Sminty listener, you
can get a free thirty day trial membership. Just go
to Netflix dot com slash mom, which is our very
(29:08):
special you are l and sign up and be sure
to use that you are L so that they know
that Kristen and I sent you over there. The thirty
day free trial won't be around forever, though, so you
need to head over to Netflix dot com slash mom
as soon as possible to sign up today. And of course,
these movie titles are subject availability, so check out their
selection when you get over there. Now back to Listener mail,
(29:32):
we have a couple of letters here on our episode
about why are breasts different sizes, particularly like in like
individual breasts on our body, one bigger than the other
or smaller than the other. Howe however you want to
look at it. So I've got an email here from Adam,
who I'm gonna go ahead and say is one of
(29:52):
our superstar listeners because he is traveling around the world
and listens to our podcast. Sent us some woolen hat
that are colorful and very warm on her heads, and um,
he checks in with us from time to time, and
he checked in with us about this podcast, and he said,
I listened to your podcast on a day when I
(30:14):
found a guanabanna sour sop. Guanabana is the type of fruit.
It's shaped like a heart. My left breast is bigger
than my right, and it has been ever since puberty.
Others say it's not very noticeable, but when I have
seen myself in the mirror in a picture, it seems
like a colossal imperfection to me. Over the years, I've
gotten more and more comfortable with my body. The heart
(30:37):
shaped fruit I mentioned above is interesting because it raises
a question of whether imperfections sometimes cover up our superpower
in my case, a big heart. Thanks for the great
podcast as always, and thank you Adam, and safe travels
to you. And this here email is from Nicole. She said,
(30:58):
I'm twenty four years old and grew up is you
did in a world without the internet and clever podcast
that spilled the beans on all those apparently untouchable topics
of girlhood. I wish I had heard the term hypertrophy
before twenty minutes ago. Alas when I hit grade eight
and my right breast practically exploded overnight, it was not
a good scene For about a year. My family kept
(31:18):
it under wraps literally for a span. But when I
stayed an age appropriate A on my left and then
balloon to a B, then C, and eventually a double
D on my right, we made some formal inquiries. Early
into grade nine, I was granted an insurance covered single
sided breast reduction because my spine was actually being pulled
out of line from the imbalance calling causing a load
(31:40):
of back problems. I don't remember what story I told
my friends, but it wasn't the truth. For a long
time before the surgery, however, we found a miracle band
aid fix I called them out plants. You briefly mentioned
these special inserts in your podcast, but I thought I
would take a few minutes to tell you about these
suckers firsthand. There are two main kinds. The first is
the soft skin like Nipolis silicone breastpiece, weighted and textured
(32:04):
like a real boob. This one is for daily use
and slips discreetly into a specialty braw a voila, a
nice even rack. But there is no but there is
a no water clause, and so the second outplant becomes
important and much firmer, much more rubbery triangle of treated
silicone for swimming. It looked and felt less natural, so
it was tempting to cheat and use the other one.
(32:25):
But maybe the technology on boobs has developed in the
last ten years. They were a godsend to my awkward
and sadly ashamed younger self, and I know that similar
products are used daily now by women who have undergone
breast surgery for a different reason, namely mystectomy. So there
you have it, she says, tales from the Underwire. So
thank you, Nicole. I'm that's a good story, and thanks
(32:47):
to everyone who has sent us their stories. Mom stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters,
and you can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast and
find us on Facebook as well, and you can check
out our tumbler log It's stuff Mom Never Told You
dot tumbler dot com. And if you'd like to get
smarter during the week, you should head over to our
(33:07):
website it's how stuff works dot com for more on
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
works dot com.
Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're asking the question
how long should you wait to have sex? Not in
terms of your first sexual experience, but in terms of
(00:26):
meeting someone you know if you it's This is a
very common question, I think, especially in heterosexual dating relationships.
There's a question of how long do you wait? How
many dates do you wait for, or how many minutes
post handshake do you wait? Because apparently we are very
(00:51):
concerned that if you don't wait long enough, you will
be doomed to be single for the rest of your
life and be called name yes mean names, We don't. Yeah.
All the answers to these questions are pretty loaded, depending
on depending on where people are coming from. Who are
answering it? Yeah, and uh, the reason why we wanted
(01:11):
to talk about this, and we'll get more in depth
into this study. But there was some research that came
out of Cornell University in August that was published in
the Journal of Marriage and Family that said, and well,
this was the headline at least because this was widely circulated.
Not so surprisingly because the Internet loves scientific studies about sex,
(01:34):
and it said that the optimum number of days to
wait was a hundred and eighty two. And then you know,
I when Christen emailed me that I responded, isn't that
like half of a year? Which so you I mean,
you probably know then where I'm coming from on this
if I responded so vehement ley. So um. Even though
we we don't talk in the magazine parlance too often
(01:58):
in the podcast, I feel like this is one of
those opportunities when we do want to consult lady and gentlemen.
Meg's because this is something that comes up so often
in magazines like Marie Claire and Cosmo and Esquire. So
to kick things off, there was a survey that was
(02:21):
commissioned by jointly by Esquire and Marie Claire to find
out the differences between how long dudes and girls women,
men heterosexual wait to have sex. Right. Uh, It turns
out that the average number of dates before having sex
is three for men versus five for women. So what's
(02:44):
happening there? Does does the guy go out on the
third date and like he leaves the date and hooks
up with someone and then goes home, whereas the woman
is waiting, like goes home and waits for two more dates.
It's funny how these numbers never match up. Well but yeah,
but the whole same thing. It's like a flip flop
though with waiting until marriage because of men, uh, wait
(03:06):
for marriage to have sex versus nine percent of women. Yeah,
and or at least like men who read Esquire well,
yes and take surveys or men who read Marie Claire
and here is a big no brainer. Men, according to
the survey, were more likely to be satisfied after a
one night's stand. That's probably because statistically, men are more
(03:26):
likely to reach orgasm after one night stands. There's there
aren't all those societal hang ups about one night stands
and sexual stigmas. Uh. And while men were three times
as likely to be satisfied, women were twice as likely
to feel regret or shame after a one night's stand.
And I have a feeling that it might have something
(03:48):
to do with this constant pondering of how long should
you wait and what it says about you if you
wait a certain amount of time? Right, Because you know,
there's the whole thing about out the ice cream truck
given away samples, cow's milk, et cetera. So let's get
into some research beyond just magazine surveys. There was a
(04:14):
B y U study that came out in two thousand
ten that got a lot of coverage as well. Yeah,
because they basically said, you're not going to be happy
unless you wait wait for marriage. Um. They they said
that if sex happens too early, it quote overwhelms good
decision making and keeps couples in a relationship that might
not be the best for them in the long run.
(04:36):
So they looked at more than two thousand people in
their first marriages. Average age was about thirty six, and
they categorized these people as having early sex in the relationship,
late sex so waiting a while, or having no sex
until marriage. And just you know, I know this is
a b y U study, but they did have a
wide range of religious affiliations that they were looking at
with these people. They found out in the study this
(04:58):
you know, a lot of self reporting and what that.
But they found out that the relationships fared better the
longer people waited, with those sleeping together before a month
showing the worst outcomes, and those who waited until marriage
reporting better. Relationship stability and satisfaction, and better sexual quality
and communication. What do you think about that? Well, I
(05:18):
think there are some some good points in there, such as, uh,
giving a relationship some time to develop trust with people,
especially if you're uh the sample population or or exclusively
married couples. So probably when they were looking back, these
(05:40):
people might have been more relationship minded to begin with,
and they probably wanted to develop some emotional rapport before
jumping into the sack. Um. But it's still there's still
this issue of correlation versus causation that I feel like
a lot of the rest on delaying sex seems to
(06:04):
just skip over. For instance, this was something pointed out
in the Economists when they were reporting on this study,
and they said that researchers don't know why people who
waited have better relationship. Maybe it's the sexual delay. Maybe
it's the sort of people who want to wait are
somehow better relationship building. Maybe they have like higher emotional
(06:24):
intelligence than people who, you know, just wait a few
minutes until their hand shape. Um. And also, I mean,
I feel like this is telling to live. Science reported
on the study as well, and they were interviewing one
of the lead of searchers, and he talked about how
almost of the couples are essentially sexual. I don't know
(06:45):
what essentially sexual means, but you know, I'll let listeners
just fill in those blanks. They said were essentially sexual
within the first or second time they went out. But quote,
we suspect that if you ask these same couples at
this early stage of a relationship, do you trust this
person to watch your pet for a weekend? Many could
not answer this in the affirmative, meaning that they are
(07:06):
more comfortable letting people into their bodies than they are
with them watching their cat. Okay, I take issue with
this quote because to me, this points out a potential
methodological flaw in this study because clearly and here I
am making assumptions that the psychologists was making assumptions about
(07:30):
how people should architect their relationships. Now, I totally see
where you're coming from that quote through me. Also, and
you know cats, you don't never have anybody come over
to watch cats you anyway. Yeah, And also, it's not
a question on the first or second date whether or
not someone you trust someone to come over and watch
your pets. It's more things like do you trust someone
(07:53):
to sexually disclose that they have an STD or something
like that, or do you trust a person to wear
a condom if you ask them to? These are the
kinds of questions. Why are we talking about pets? Cares
about pets? Yeah, I don't even have pets. I have
plants that I really should water more. Um. But so
moving on to a different study, Christen references Cornell University
(08:14):
study back all the way in August of this year.
It said, okay, well yeah, sure, maybe wait a little,
but the issue is more about cohabitation, which I thought
was interesting. They reviewed data from six hundred married and
cohabitating couples and found that rapid sexual involvement, which sounds exciting,
but it's just you know, getting getting sexually involved quickly,
(08:36):
along with cohabitation, affects the long term relationship quality. And
they found that couples who do move rapidly into sexual relationships,
more than a third of them reported having sex within
one month of starting the relationships. So this is sort
of this is their their audiences, is who they're looking at.
They found that women and men definitely had a different
(08:58):
view of what it means to get in evolved sexually
with someone quickly. Yeah, but with this sample population, UH,
women tended to view an early entry into sexual relationships
as being negatively associated with marital quality UM and the
researchers also thought from this that perhaps women see early
(09:21):
sexual activity as having a greater symbolic value as to
the relationship commitment. You start doing it, this means you're
for real disease in a bigger way. Whereas for the men,
the speed of entry into sect the sexual relationship was
completely unrelated to their perception of overall relationship and marital quality.
(09:47):
And again, I think that that might have something to
do with this constant question of this timeline that we
are supposed to follow, although no one knows what the
timeline is UM. But I think it's worth talking about
this Cornell study because there are all these nuances within
it in terms of how these couples all had children together,
(10:12):
they were all living together. The bottom line of the
relationship highlighted living together more so than jumping into bed together,
you know, in the first month. But the headlines and
the reporting that came out on it all said, hey, everybody,
just wait a hundred and eighty two days. Women, you
(10:32):
will hate yourself if you don't wait a hundred and
eighty two days to sleep with him, and he's gonna
not want to stick around. You better put that sex
calendar up on your wall. Check off exactly a hundred
and eighty two days. Maybe we should start, you know,
selling two day sex calendar and then have a ribbon
that you can cut, oh at the end of it
and confetti. Yeah, or maybe it looks like a a
(10:54):
thong string. But I like, I like this discussion that
the study is having about cohabitation because they say that
it's cohabitation that drives the association between relationship quality and
relationship tempo. They did point to early sexual activity as
being linked to subsequent cohabitation and less satisfying marriages. Kind
(11:16):
of the idea that if you have sex really fast
and maybe in in because they said that in a
woman's mind that's sort of an indicator of relationship commitment
and all this stuff. So if you have sex early on,
you feel like you have this foundation of commitment and
then well, well let's just move in together. Well wait
a second though, back up, because also we've got to
(11:38):
remember the child care aspect of this. Indeed, maybe this
was something that Amanda has pointed out over on slate,
maybe there should have been more of an examination into
birth control practices because perhaps the reason why they're moving
in together is because, uh, they were practicing sex in
some way that would have allowed a pregnancy to happen,
and now there's a baby, and so now they have
(11:59):
to move together. Yeah. Yeah, so they're looking at how
this early cohabitation, you know, people start feeling trapped and
then they're not as satisfied in their either relationship or
their marriage that happens later. So there's a lot of
moving parts. Yeah, And I will say that there was
an interview with Sharon Sassler, who was the lead author
of the study, which was called the Tempo of Sexual
(12:21):
Activity and Later Relationship Quality, which I like to call
out just because I like the idea of the tempo
of sexual activity, like there's a metronome. She brought up
a good point though, in an interview about this research,
saying that, um, they wanted to look into whether quote,
sexual dependencies had replaced emotional compatibility. And I think that
(12:43):
that's that's a good way to to maybe think about
this whole waiting game that so often comes up. It's
not so much a timeline thing. Perhaps but thinking about
sexual dependency versus emotional compatibility. But more on that later
because at long last, in August of two thousand ten,
(13:05):
actually before obviously, this Cornell study came out, UH University
of Iowa study found that guess what, early sex does
not doom relationships. Hey hey again, take your tape falling down? Um? Yeah,
(13:26):
they found it. While relationship quality might be higher for
people who waited until things were serious rather than those
people who hooked up, the sex itself, they say, is
not to blame for the disparity. And this goes back
to something that Kristen touched on earlier about maybe it's
just your personality type. Like if people who just are
not wanting a relationship or maybe are not good at
(13:48):
serious relationships, maybe these are the people who are hooking up.
So if you get somebody together, to get two people together,
one who's just in for the hookup and one who
actually is pursuing a serious relationship, well that's doomed to
fail no matter when those two people have sex. So
it's it's they're saying, it's more maybe just about your
personal drive when you want to have sex, whether you
(14:08):
want a relationship. So sociologist Anthony Pike, who was the
researcher with that University of Iowa study, said, Okay, so
our findings indicate that it's not so much this sex
issue that we are constantly getting hung up on, but
(14:29):
more something to do with people and the actual relationships
between people. So he suggested that what was affecting relationship quality,
at least according to their data, was that unmarried couples
in those with children had lower relationship quality, and couples
with positive ties to each other's relatives had higher relationship quality.
(14:49):
But again, i mean, there's so many correlation causation issues
still even in that, because when you boil it down
to individual relationships, um, you know, I'm sure that you
can slice it and dice it so many different ways.
I mean, I'm sure the couples with children are just
very tired. Sure, there's like their parents listening or not
(15:11):
was shaking their fists at their iPod. But it was
still refreshing to see some empirical acknowledgement that hey, maybe
we should think not so much about the length of time,
but rather what people not just guys, because let's not
(15:32):
let's not do minutis service and say every straight guy
just wants to have sex with anyone at any point
and does not care about waiting at all. I think
that that's a reductionists as much as it is that
every woman wants to play the game according to the
book the Rules and wait like eight years or something
(15:52):
because we're terrified and insecure and and scared that if
we have sex then no one's really gonna like us
at the end of a day. And um, I don't know,
I mean, I feel like to this whole the fear
of I mean because also, let me just say this,
if you want to wait to have sex or just
not have sex at all, that's completely fine. The problem
(16:13):
is constantly putting the onus, particularly on women. And this
does focus particularly on heterosexual women. There were no studies
that we found looking into any gay populations whatsoever. Um,
and always it was this fear of too soon sex relationships,
(16:35):
reminding me of how especially for women, it's that whole
fear of say, having too many sexual partners, like does
my body look okay? It's all of these all these
hang ups that are I feel like I keeps saying
hang ups, Um, but there's so much wrapped up in
this question exactly. Yeah, what what You're worried that society
(16:58):
will think about you, what the man will say about you, Like, oh,
I feel pressured to have sex because you know, he's
a man. He wants me to have sex with him,
but then the whole life will But then if I
do have sex with him, he won't actually like me. Well,
and then on the opposite sides, on either side of
that spectrum, you have, well, hey, what if I would
like to have sex and I just want to have sex, okay,
(17:18):
then you are deemed a loose woman. Uh. And then
if you don't want to have sex at all, and
you are a virgin, and you're an adult virgin, then
they're all the things that come with that too. Of people,
you know, the people saying that maybe you're too prudish man.
Maybe it is a hundred and eighty two days. I
(17:39):
don't know if if there, if they it would be
simpler if there was some kind of magic number. And no,
I'm not saying eighty two days is it, but for
some people it might be. I mean, I think that's
the moral of the story is Yeah, it could be.
I mean, I I personally think with my personal relationships
that waiting a little it. And you know what, again,
(18:01):
I don't know what that time frame is, but waiting
a little bit to the point where you feel like
you're comfortable with the person. And this is I'm talking
about relationship stuff, relationshippinus, not like just hooking up or whatever,
Like that's a totally different game. I'm talking about Like
I'm talking about like, when I feel like I've met
someone that I really want to have a relationship with,
I think it's better to wait however long you feel
(18:24):
as appropriate to learn about the person, trust the person,
whether it's to watch your cats or not. Um, just
feel like, okay, well yeah I wanna you know, I
feel like I know this person and have a foundation
because in my experience, you know, dumb things can happen
when you build a relationship just on the sex foundation
and not on the knowing the person foundation. Right, Because
(18:47):
like Saster was talking about that sexual dependency versus emotional compatibility,
and you know what I'm going to I'm gonna theorize
without any like data in front of my face to
back this up. I would say that finding the emotional
compatibility is much harder to find than some kind of
(19:11):
sexual compatibility or sexual dependency. So if you are a
relationship minded then yeah, you don't want to confuse the
two and you don't want to set yourself up with
unrealistic expectations. But it also is not helping us that
the magazines that a lot of women are reading and
(19:33):
that is dispensed on the internet to younger, single straight
people is just keeping us in this tail spin. Yeah.
And it's framing it in as sort of a respect
a self respect will he respect you kind of issue? Yeah,
And it's all about and the onus again, it is
(19:55):
all on the woman. Yeah. So this is from Cosmo,
as everybody knows, my favorite magazine. So, um Cosme. I
talked to relationship expert Ryan C. Browning. I don't know
what that means, um, but the decision here was you
should wait because quote, once you give up the goods,
you lose the upper hand in the dating power dynamics.
(20:18):
So if you have sex too soon, he's not under
your spell anymore. Oh man, Well that's too bad, because
you know what I want is a relationship that is
based completely on power. Uh yeah. He Browning also goes
on to say that you know what, sex also creates
a false sense of intimacy, so you crave commitment, you
(20:42):
dumb women. Yeah, but that's also hey, you know what,
let's not strip away intimacy from sex either. That's another
form of moralizing, saying that there's nothing good that can
come from a sexual relationship as well. Um and Browning
also wants you to say no because men loves a
(21:03):
challenge and if you do, the sex will be better
and you'll trust your feelings more because early sex can
make you overlook red flags. Now, yes, does all of
that oxytocin released in your brain promote feelings of bonding
with someone who maybe if you haven't known them that long,
like maybe you are building bridges to nowhere? Sure, that
(21:25):
can happen, but it's also let's let's keep in mind
self awareness that can happen. But moving on from Cosmo,
let's go to Marie Claire Our things over there. Well,
this this fantastic sex and the single guy call him
also tells people to wait, but he he frames it
in more of like a guys need to stop pressuring
(21:45):
girls into sex kind of thing. Yeah, women, it was
it was like, women stop spoiling men with sex when
they want it. I really love because we should train
them like dogs. Yeah, because he was saying, okay, so,
why why are these guys pressuring girls and to have
sex early on in the relationship, and he cites things
like their upbringing maybe they never learned to treat women
(22:06):
with respect. Side note to pick on my roommate. My roommate,
who is a dude, does think it's important to wait
if he's getting into a relationship. And he cited his
deeply ingrained respect for women that he learned from his mama.
That's nice. So but yeah, so anyway, moving on, Okay,
so he also talks about, like, you know, other women
(22:27):
being spoiled by other women, like Kristen said, like, possibly
the dude who's pressuring you to have sex has been
quote unquote rewarded by other women giving into his pressure. Yeah,
I mean and I and I I'm not going to
say that those kinds of cultural influences in certain circles
don't exist. But also here's something sex and a single
(22:49):
guy call um writer at Marie Claire like, maybe he
doesn't want a relationship. It could be as simple as that.
Also as simple for a female who does not want
a relationship, or I should say woman. Sometimes people get
annoyed and I say female instead of woman and now
heading over to the New Yorker of the online x
(23:12):
y sites ask men dot com. Uh, they break it
down like this. Basically, they offer a handy guide for
guys out there who want to determine whether or not
women are worth keeping around based on how long she
waits to um to have sexual intercourse and guess what. Okay,
(23:34):
listen up, gals and guys. If she waits six months,
about that hundred and eighty two days, ask men says,
you'll think it's amazing because you're desperate. She's a keeper
because she's rational and doesn't jump into things. Do we
do we even need to follow that up with a
witty equip I don't think so. But let's just jump
(23:54):
down to a first night fling questions to ask yourself, man,
does she do this all the time? Or is it
that women are becoming more aggressive? I want to break
the ballpoint pen that I'm holding in my hand again.
Let me reiterate to everyone out there, wait, as long
as you want to have sex, don't have sex at all.
(24:17):
Have sex the first time you meet someone safely. But wow,
that kind of advice, it's doing a disservice to all
of us because it's creating false continually creating false expectations
and ignoring um any like kind of healthy relationship psychology.
(24:39):
But since we've been, uh, you know, kind of giving
these magazines a hard time, I will say Glamour dot
com offered a decently nuanced perspective on the question. This
was in their Smitten blog from two thousand and eight,
and and the writer talks about, how, uh, in the past,
(25:02):
I've usually been the super slow girl in college. I
waited four months with my sophomore year boyfriend and then
two months with my senior year boyfriend. And then she says,
by the time I met my current boyfriend, I was
twenty eight. And here's the part where I was like, hey,
all right, here we go. I was twenty eight and
more confident, comfortable, and head over heels form we slept
(25:25):
together on the third date. All right, But that I
think that point where she's talking about she was more
confident and comfortable. She knew herself, she knew what she wanted,
and the time that she waited, whether it was the
third date or the fourth month, the hundred and eighty
second day, it would not probably matter because she knew
(25:46):
herself well enough to to throw all of this ridiculous
advice out the window. Yeah, I mean that's exactly what
we're saying, Like, whatever feels appropriate for you and the
person that you're with. I mean, you know yourself, are
you do you want to get to know this person?
Do you feel already comfortable with this person? Does it
(26:07):
not matter? You know? Like you were, you were a woman,
you're a grown up. You can make this choice for yourself,
and you're a man too. Again, It's like, I think
it's I think it's wrong too to assume that the
guys are just light years, you know, away from where
we stand on this issue. And also too, Hey, guess
(26:30):
what if you meet somebody and they're pressuring you and
not respecting things like consent and sexual safety and all
of that, get out, Just get out and leave find
somebody better. Okay, I think I think we've answered this question.
How long should you wait to have sex? Caroline? As
(26:51):
long as you feel is appropriate for you and your partner.
There you go, and don't let society shame you otherwise
for waiting too long, for not waiting long enough. I'm
gonna say arbitrary question. As long as you got yourself
in check, your relationship in check, and safety in check,
(27:13):
there we go. I'm not gonna judge you, Caroline, Are
you going to judge them? No? Good, I don't know.
It's no judgment zone here, tiny closet sized studio. So
I am very curious to here what people have to
say about this. And again also uh from not in
a sexual listeners out there too, like why I mean,
(27:37):
is this just something that that straight people are totally
hung up on that is like not so much of
an issue in gay communities or have researchers just once
again overlooked entire populations of sexually active people. Very curious
to hear people's thoughts on this, on waiting, let us
know what you think. Are we being too lais a
fair about the whole thing? Um? Let us know all
(28:01):
of your thoughts. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com is
where you can send them, and of course you can
head over to our Facebook page and leave a comment
there or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. But before
we jump into a listener mail, we have a quick
word on behalf of our friends at Netflix who helped
make this podcast possible, so you know today we talked
(28:25):
about this whole issue of how long should you wait?
Should you wait? Does it matter? What difference does it make?
How do you feel? Who have you slept with? Yeah? What?
What's what's your deal? Well, so I think to help
you put your issues in perspective, you can head over
to Netflix dot com because they were so kind to
bring us today's episode of Sminty and try watching Chasing Amy,
(28:48):
which shows what can happen when you might get a
little judge with someone's sexual past. But you're in luck
because not only should you head over to Netflix dot com,
but as a new member and a Sminty listener, you
can get a free thirty day trial membership. Just go
to Netflix dot com slash mom, which is our very
(29:08):
special you are l and sign up and be sure
to use that you are L so that they know
that Kristen and I sent you over there. The thirty
day free trial won't be around forever, though, so you
need to head over to Netflix dot com slash mom
as soon as possible to sign up today. And of course,
these movie titles are subject availability, so check out their
selection when you get over there. Now back to Listener mail,
(29:32):
we have a couple of letters here on our episode
about why are breasts different sizes, particularly like in like
individual breasts on our body, one bigger than the other
or smaller than the other. Howe however you want to
look at it. So I've got an email here from Adam,
who I'm gonna go ahead and say is one of
(29:52):
our superstar listeners because he is traveling around the world
and listens to our podcast. Sent us some woolen hat
that are colorful and very warm on her heads, and um,
he checks in with us from time to time, and
he checked in with us about this podcast, and he said,
I listened to your podcast on a day when I
(30:14):
found a guanabanna sour sop. Guanabana is the type of fruit.
It's shaped like a heart. My left breast is bigger
than my right, and it has been ever since puberty.
Others say it's not very noticeable, but when I have
seen myself in the mirror in a picture, it seems
like a colossal imperfection to me. Over the years, I've
gotten more and more comfortable with my body. The heart
(30:37):
shaped fruit I mentioned above is interesting because it raises
a question of whether imperfections sometimes cover up our superpower
in my case, a big heart. Thanks for the great
podcast as always, and thank you Adam, and safe travels
to you. And this here email is from Nicole. She said,
(30:58):
I'm twenty four years old and grew up is you
did in a world without the internet and clever podcast
that spilled the beans on all those apparently untouchable topics
of girlhood. I wish I had heard the term hypertrophy
before twenty minutes ago. Alas when I hit grade eight
and my right breast practically exploded overnight, it was not
a good scene For about a year. My family kept
(31:18):
it under wraps literally for a span. But when I
stayed an age appropriate A on my left and then
balloon to a B, then C, and eventually a double
D on my right, we made some formal inquiries. Early
into grade nine, I was granted an insurance covered single
sided breast reduction because my spine was actually being pulled
out of line from the imbalance calling causing a load
(31:40):
of back problems. I don't remember what story I told
my friends, but it wasn't the truth. For a long
time before the surgery, however, we found a miracle band
aid fix I called them out plants. You briefly mentioned
these special inserts in your podcast, but I thought I
would take a few minutes to tell you about these
suckers firsthand. There are two main kinds. The first is
the soft skin like Nipolis silicone breastpiece, weighted and textured
(32:04):
like a real boob. This one is for daily use
and slips discreetly into a specialty braw a voila, a
nice even rack. But there is no but there is
a no water clause, and so the second outplant becomes
important and much firmer, much more rubbery triangle of treated
silicone for swimming. It looked and felt less natural, so
it was tempting to cheat and use the other one.
(32:25):
But maybe the technology on boobs has developed in the
last ten years. They were a godsend to my awkward
and sadly ashamed younger self, and I know that similar
products are used daily now by women who have undergone
breast surgery for a different reason, namely mystectomy. So there
you have it, she says, tales from the Underwire. So
thank you, Nicole. I'm that's a good story, and thanks
(32:47):
to everyone who has sent us their stories. Mom stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can send your letters,
and you can tweet us at mom Stuff Podcast and
find us on Facebook as well, and you can check
out our tumbler log It's stuff Mom Never Told You
dot tumbler dot com. And if you'd like to get
smarter during the week, you should head over to our
(33:07):
website it's how stuff works dot com for more on
this and thousands of other topics. Does it how stuff
works dot com.
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