August 16, 2023 • 55 mins
Renee Powers of Feminist Book Club stops by and shares her thoughts on how to run a feminist business in a capitalist society.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio. And today we
are so so so happy to be joined by Renee
Powers of Feminist book Club, the podcast, the business, the
(00:28):
subscription box, all of it.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you so much for joining us. I am so
excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
We're so excited to have you. We've already like we
do this all the time. We just adopt people as friends.
So you're like our friend.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We're gonna have really fun hangout times where we complain
about business stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, I love this for all of us.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I love that your podcast just fits perfectly with ours.
And I'm like, why haven't we've been hanging out before.
That's that's more that's stranger to me than the this part.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
It's true, it's true, and this is this is a
really fun thing because you're coming on our podcast and
we're going to be on your podcast, which I'm gonna
admit I'm a little nervous about because you feel a
little bit more polished.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh oh, it's all a facod it's all fake, fake
it till you make it, is my mantra.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah, and I love that as our like twelve year
veteran here are saying she's nervous, and yes, still get nervous.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's like I want a plane with turbulence, right.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I have to tell you though, And I was telling
Samantha this earlier that I started podcasting because of stuff
Mom never told you, Like I started listening back in
like twenty ten, is that right, Like yeah, like even
before Caroline came on, it was it was Kristin and Molly.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, And that's what inspired me to podcast. I remember drive.
I had a thirty five minute commute out to my
grad school program, and I would it was a straight
shot and I would just cueue up all the back episodes.
I A fan ever said, so this feels really like
I don't know, this is really fulfilling to me. So
thanks for thanks for chatting with me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I love that so much. Oh my gosh, I'm almost
like I'm thinking back to oh my time, because I
was an editor at that point. I was the editor
of the show. So that's so cool. It's like those
connections you can make over technology and you don't realize, yes,
like he's made them.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The parasocial relationships have become real social relationship.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, it's so odd too working
in this business when you, like, as an editor, I
would know such personal facts about people who have never
spoken to me before, but I work with them. It
was just such a strange thing. Is like, you probably
(03:00):
don't even know my name, but I know when you
like lost your virgin very bizarre. Well, okay, can you
introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, so, as you said, my name Swerna Powers. I
she her pronouns. I am based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and
Minneapolis proper, not one of the urbs.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Okay, that's a big thing.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's a thing for everyone, like way exactly. Yeah. But
I am the founder of Feminist Book Club. We are
a monthly book subscription service and media company. We use
literature as a launchpad to have difficult conversations about social
justice and we've been doing this for just over five
(03:49):
years now. This grew out of a failed dissertation. Oh wow,
So I'm actually I'm a I call myself a pH dropout.
I spent eight years in grad school, six years in
a PhD program, and I was studying gender and communication
and technology and got to the point where I did
(04:11):
all my coursework, I passed my exams, and then I
went to propose my dissertation and I failed it three
times and I was like, I'm out. Yeah, it was
just like horrible on my mental health. So I was
in Chicago. My partner is from Minneapolis. We moved up
here together, and I was like, well, I had this
(04:32):
interview project as part of my dissertation. I'm just going
to do it as a podcast. And like I said, stuff,
mom never told you got me into podcasting, like listening
to podcasts and feminist podcasting I think is such an
interesting medium. And so thanks to y'all and what you do.
Feminist book Clubs started as a podcast, and my listeners
(04:55):
would say, like, you're always giving you know, book recommendations,
like what if you had an actual book club, And
it just grew organically from there. We started just a
bunch of friends in a Facebook group reading the same books,
and now we have you know, a thousand members around
the world and our own platform and app, and we
talk to authors and we have a you know, bi
(05:18):
weekly podcast. Bi weekly has twice a week, not every
other week, it's twice a week podcast and daily blog.
We're big on TikTok. We're big on Instagram. It's just
rad as hell. So that's what we are and what
I do. I just kind of guide the ship.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, and it is quite the ship. You've got quite
a large team. I was a little jealous when I
was looking at it, right, This is amazing. You get
to work with these this many people.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They're so cool to. Every single one of our contributors
and staff is just like the coolest people I've ever met.
And I am big on surrounding myself with people that
are much smarter than me. So we do have We've
got kind of our executive team of four of us
that our podcast producer, We've got our blog editor in chief,
(06:09):
and then our Captain of commerce is their title, and
their name is Raw and Ron and I work in
Minneapolis together in an office space, and so we are
the only two full time employees. But everyone else is
a contributor and you know, doing two to four pieces
of content every month and helping out on you know,
(06:31):
the community and creating all sorts of really cool conversations
to starting really interesting conversations of like things that they
are interested in and therefore I am now interested in.
So it's Yeah, our content really runs the gamut of
a little bit of everything. We've got you know, someone
who works for the federal government. We've got a former
(06:52):
park ranger. We've got a science communication like professional, like
feminism applies to everything, and we are able to use
our team of contributors to highlight that. We've got like
a film writer, like it's just cool, it's just cool.
Everybody is just yeah, a romance author like what. Yeah,
(07:18):
it's a great team.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, that's awesome. And I do want to come back
to the thing you said about being a feminist podcasts
in this this space in a second, But just first,
I have a couple questions about how has podcasting treated you,
how has it been? And then also I find we
(07:40):
have a book club on here. It is once a
month and it's amazing, But I find that it's difficult
to like read a whole book for podcasts, which sounds terrible,
but like when it's your job, like you're researching all
the time, you're reading stuff all the time, it just
becomes like okay, and I hate this, but it's true.
(08:01):
We'll be like this book is too long, we can't
read this one. Have you found that that has sort
of leaked into your personal enjoyment of reading.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Mmmm. What a good question. I'm h So. One of
the reasons I started Feminist Book Club is because I
was so tired of reading like research, like dead old
white guys writing about postmodernism like over it. So anything
that's not that has always been fun for me. But
(08:35):
to your point, yes, there are some books that kind
of feel like homework, whether that's for you know, one
of our books of the month, or if that's the
guest that we're gonna have on the podcast. I read
everybody's books that's on the podcast. So yes, I don't
know what else to say about that without affending people.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm not trying to do got to interview.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Gosh, But what I will say is I'm a very
fast reader, and so I always have at least three
books going at once, and if if one, if I'm
reading something for quote unquote fun, so I don't have
like the author coming on or I don't have to
write discussion questions for our book club. I am not
(09:31):
afraid of not finishing a book like time is too precious.
I will I will put it if it's like fifty
pages in, and I am not feeling it. It's just
not the right time for me. It's not you know,
the vibe that I'm looking for. I will shelve it.
I'm I'm unapologetic about not finishing books. I also listen
(09:53):
to most books on audio rather than reading physical books,
and Feminist Book Club does have an audiobook subscription nice.
And I find that being able to constantly be listening
to something, I get through so many more books because
I can do it, you know, while I'm walking my dog,
while I'm washing dishes, while I'm doing yardwork, you know.
So I at nine percent of the time I've got
(10:15):
you know, earbuds in and I'm listening to a book
on at least one point five speed.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Interesting. I love it when people are write it and
like I only listen to it this this this speed.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Like all right, your audiobook is great at one point
five speed.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, that's good to know myself as well, so if
not too a chipmug a fuck.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, you both sound great. That's a great speed
for y'all.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's true though, it is. Oh, I'm sure we'll probably
talk about this a bit when we are on your show.
But it is one of those things that we kind
of had to say to our boss, which felt strange.
It felt like he was assuming this is gonna be
a grand slam because you've got like an audience, and
it's like, yeah, but people listen to things because they
(11:12):
can do something else while they're listening to the thing,
and it's just different mediums, Like I'm not sure it's
going to translate necessarily. But both Samantha and I foolishly
didn't realize we were going to do an audiobook, which
I'm so happy about, like it's very cool. I want
to be accessible all that stuff, but I just it
is different when you can walk your dog or cook
or do something while you're listening to a book.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And I'm one of those people that I always have
to be doing something with my hands, Like yeah, so
it's hard for me to sit down and read a book.
I'm very like fidgety, and so what I often do.
Then I got really into cross stitching. Yes, yes, so
I have just dozens of cross stitching projects that I'm
(11:57):
working on, and I will just sit on the couch,
listen to my book and and do my little do
my little cross stitching because I'm seventy five years old
and unashamed of it. And I'm also in like I'm
calling at my cozy mystery era, like all I want
to read are like women solving murders, but like cozy yes,
so yes, I just make me a cup of tea
(12:19):
and you know, reserve a bed at the old Folks
Home for me because I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Sounds does me?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
No, No, Samantha is looking for a lazier version of
cozy game.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, like I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Like trying to actually do things and having quests. No,
that's like good, I'm good. I just I want to
do something in less than that. What do I just
click on things?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Thank you? That's how That's how I got If you
want to talk about games, That's how I got into
animal crossing because it's just like, yeah, I just want
to sit here and fish.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well that's the thing is like I literally stopped building things,
so it's like I don't want this to be a
whole village. I wanted to be my five people, and
I just go selfish. I don't understand what this is
even to the point like I actually try to start
knitting and I did. Okay, I did a couple of rows,
and I was like, and I'm done. So I'm really
(13:13):
good at it.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
You know, it's all right to change an audiobook.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You do a few more and you can do a
few more roads.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I am an odd person when it comes to audiobooks.
I do like I will play phone games while I'm
listening to the audio, or I will sam I will
work do the double whammy of that. So yeah, but
I like your version better except for the fact that
I'm not talented enough to do this stitching. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oh, it's just following. It's just following a map. It's
so easy.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
This is what people tell me. And then I try
it and then it comes out of blob. I'm like,
you lie to me.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
All the stitches and start over, which is also really satisfying.
Is it okay?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Because in my mind I'm just automatically breaking the string
and throwing it across the room and screaming up my failures.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Fair enough, that sounds yeah. I could chat all day
about this kind of stuff. But you did propose a
(14:22):
serious topic for this episode, which is something that we
struggle with that we think about a lot. And that's
when you are an intersectional feminists and that's something that's
part of you, but you're still in this capitalist space
that is not that and in fact and typical to that.
(14:46):
So how to be a feminist in a space that
is not when we do have to, you know, have
livelihoods and make money and survive, but how to do that?
So if you can just talk about like your initial
because you said you've done a lot of interviews about
this lately, you've been thinking about it lately, sort of
(15:06):
the when you sent this idea to us. What was
on your mind? What are you thinking about?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so it's something that I think about constantly, is
how to run a feminist business, because, like you said,
that feels contradictory and it's something I'm I changed my
mind about all the time. And this is something you
all discussed in your book too, and I love that
you talk about this. Fear of failure is detrimental to
(15:32):
the feminist movement. And I've been screaming that from the
top of my lungs, right that you know, if I
don't show up try and fail, Like, if I don't
show up and try, knowing that I could fail, Like what,
that's not moving anybody forward?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So all I'm saying is like, this is my approach
and I will likely fail, but that's okay because we
will all learn something from it. Right, So, how do
we participate in capitalism and critique capitalism at the same
time is something I think about a lot. And the
the short answer is capitalism is compulsory, Like there's nothing
(16:09):
that we can do to remove ourselves from capitalism and
still be just like a functioning human in the society.
So that means that we have to participate in capitalism ethically,
And so how do we do that? What does that
look like? And so that's what I've been like, how
to be an anti capitalist business is like really hard,
(16:31):
But how to be an ethical business that prioritizes the
needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, the
needs of its staff before profit. I think that is
what sets feminists businesses apart from your run of the mill,
even small business. I was gonna say, like Walmart, but like,
(16:53):
even there are a lot of small businesses that are
just in it for the bottom line. Yeah, every decision
that is made in this business from a place of
people over profit. Like, yes, we have to pay our bills,
but if by chance we can't pay our bills. We
will still pay our people, and that's a real thing.
(17:15):
Right We're in a recession, and there are there are
times like right now, I was just telling you all
before we started recording, like our office space was broken
into four times in the last month and we lost,
you know, over five thousand dollars worth of equipment, Like
all of our festival stuff is gone. It's just it's
so frustrating and insurance won't cover it, which is really great.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, oh I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So like we started a I believe deeply in mutual
eight too, and so we started to GoFundMe and we're
starting to like recoup some of those costs and anything
left over is going to start to help us get
the ball rolling on reincorporating as a feminist co op,
an employee owned co op. So that's I wanted to
get this business off the ground, so it was stable,
(18:03):
it was running, it had systems and processes right.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Then I wanted to step away. And so that's what
we're in the process of right now, is putting the
business in the hands of the actual community. Like I said,
my background is in feminist theory, and so I come
at this not from a business standpoint. I don't have
a background in business. I don't have a business degree,
but I come from this from a theory background. And
what does it look like when we put feminist theory
(18:31):
into action? And there is a research method called feminist
participatory action research, and I have tried my best to
adapt that to running a business. And what that really means.
It's a feedback loop, right of you know, we're thinking
about this decision. What do you think we want to
go this direction? What do you think this goes all
(18:54):
the way down to Like the books that we pick,
I don't pick them, our members pick them. I choose
a theme because I'm like, well, we haven't read Native
American voices lately, so like, let's do Native American voices
month something along those lines. We haven't read trance voices,
we haven't read about Hollywood, so like our next Our
next theme is in the zeitgeist, right because they're on strike.
(19:18):
But it's a night of the movie, so we're gonna
be having conversations about the strike and the labor movement,
but you know, all under the guise of reading fun
Hollywood stories. So I propose the theme. Our members suggest
titles based on that theme and then everybody votes and
that's what gets chosen as the book of the month.
So yeah, learning with and from participants instead of like teaching,
(19:42):
like just not assuming I'm the smartest person in the room,
because I'm absolutely not. But you know, bringing our community
into the decision making has been really rewarding. And then
and then they feel invested in it too. So I
think that's I just gave you, like all of my
word salad about about running a feminist business. So yes,
(20:04):
let's let's let's let's synthesize here, right, So restructuring into
a co op, people over profit, prioritizing our customers' opinions
and asking for their feedback, I think, and opening up
this feedback loop. I think that are those are the
hallmarks of how we run a feminist business and how
we uh yeah, push back against and participate in capitalism
(20:28):
in in an anti capitalist way. We're not in it
to make a pajillion dollars. Nobody sells books to make
a pajillion dollars unless your name is Jeff Bezos and
he can give.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Agreed, agree, Also, can we actually make money? Because I
want to make money with the book. How do we
do this Annie.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, sorry not to be the bearer of bad news,
but son of them. Okay, sorry friends, but yes, yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I love the wrap up that was. You can tell
I've definitely done presentation. I see your PhD in here,
like trying to do the defense.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Not quite a PhD. I'm considered abd all the dissertation.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yes, well I'm gonna I'm gonna say you have it
because you you were.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Thank you, You're so you can still call me professor Powers.
I will, I will every day.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
But yeah, I think that's such an interesting conversation because
we've had to have a back and forth about like, yeah,
we need money to live. Uh, so we can't say
because like we have a lot of ads and advertising,
and we try to be very very very conscious of
what we say yes and no to, and of course
sometimes we just don't have any control at all. And
then the like pushback we get because we are an
(21:44):
absolute and we stand by the intersectional feminist, we make
mistakes or we may not know every information because as
much as we want to be those upstanding people, the
fact of the matter is this is a job. We
have to make money. I have to do things kind
of the same way, and I was in social word
of like, I'm doing some things that I really hate,
but I'm trying to do it in the best and
(22:05):
more conscious way possible, knowing that I'm finding a system
that's rigged against everyone, every marginalized group in so many ways.
Like have you had a lot of conversations on how
to like navigate that for yourself, especially when it comes
to like advertising and all of those.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, we do sell advertising, and we are very picky
about who we are willing to work with. And that's
I mean, and that's one of the pluses of being
independent is we don't have a parent company that we
have to make money for, Like we are making money
for ourselves to keep this ship afloat. So we only
work with women, gender non conforming or queer or people
(22:46):
of color in terms of like the books that we spotlight,
the the companies that we work with for like the
products that come with the books, because we do send
out like a sticker or like a bookmark or something
like small cute, and we do quarterly boxes that are
full of goodies and books and those all those things
come from small marginalized identity businesses, including like our our
(23:10):
web developer and our you know, our podcast editor are
our printer that we use for like inserts and stickers
and stuff. So like when we spend money on something,
we are doing that within our values. Would we take
money from someone, I don't care who we take money
from as long as that product is aligned with us. Gosh,
(23:33):
and very rarely have we worked with CIS men and
CIS owned businesses, this male owned businesses. But I'm not
gonna say no to if like Casper Mattresses or something like,
I'm just gonna assume their own by a white guy.
If Casper Mattress wants to like give me a bajillion
dollars to pitch them on our podcast, like or like
(23:55):
a free mattress like thank you, yeah, yes, and like
one all of our friends, you know, like right, because
you're getting me money, and I feel like that's feminist.
But if it's like if it's like a company that
sells only like Maga hats, absolutely not, Like I don't
care if you give me a bajillion dollars, I'm not
(24:16):
going to you know, sell ar fifteens on our podcast.
But right, but like a mattress owned by a cess,
why guy, probably, yeah, yep, So like that's like we
could be really picky, but thankfully we haven't had to
have run into those issues. It's the flows of money, right,
(24:37):
It's the flow of capitalism and like redistributing it. And
that's one thing also is like we work primarily with
women owned businesses because studies have shown when you put
capital in the hands of a woman owned business a,
you will lift generations out of poverty, but be it
will also be redistributed amongst that community. So the fact
(24:58):
that you know, we are more likely to give our dollars,
we are one hundred percent likely to give our dollars
to small women and minority own businesses just means that
that money continues to do good in whatever community they
serve instead of going into If we were to give
money to Bezos, for instance, that's just going into his
(25:19):
pockets and into his like four oh one k. Does
he even have a four oh one k? Probably not,
like he is a four oh one k, but like, well,
you know what I mean is that it's going into
like investments, which doesn't do anybody any good except for him.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, you ended up hitting on a
topic which was an inside joke for us about me
trying to get a damn mattress from Jump, like, because right, well,
that's hilarious. Right before I started everyone that was one
of the big things, individual mattresses, and I was like,
I want one.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
That started the best we've gotten as vibrators. We got vibrators.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Be happy with that too, but.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
They were woman owned. They're a woman Latina owned, so like.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
We had someone on who had those amazing vibrators.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I want one.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
We never got it, though I was really hoping, Oh, I'm.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Sorry for it. I paid for it, but I got
it anyway. Moving well, that's one of the interesting things
about I think about this a lot, and sometimes I
think this is kind of a petty thought, but sometimes
I'm like, no, this is completely legitimate. But we sometimes
(26:27):
get teased because we turned down a lot of ads.
We really do. And there was this infamous study so
Matha didn't do it, but I had to fill out
like this huge form where you just it was. It
took me four hours and it was just like sponsors
(26:49):
that you might be okay with working with. And I
feel like for people who want to uphold intersectional feminism,
that was a homework assignment because I literally had to
look up every company, Yep, what they do, where do
they donate their money? All of this stuff, And I
think that people who issued it were just holly white
(27:11):
men who didn't think like I'm not. They're like, oh,
do you like this or do you not like that?
Like that kind of dichotomy versus wait, what do they
stand for? What do they do? And sometimes I get
a little grumpy because I'll hear some male colleagues of
ours We're like, oh, I just said yes to that
because I like that. I'm like, well, okay, but did
you know about this? Right?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Did you know they single handedly caused the fires on
MAUI like.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You know, like the content, we really would have an
ad that we said yes to two years prior and
then come back and go like, oh, well, here's a
new controversy and we can't use them now, whether it's
like strike things or union things or or do you
recall or you found out that the CEO was a
man who did not care about people when it was
branded as women owned, Like, there're so many things that
(27:56):
came back. We're like, what's happening? And then not only
do we say no and probably Anie, because ay does
this work, I'll love you Anie, She's already justified. Why
we get another pushback like are you sure now? Tell
me why again? Tell us why again? And they're not.
We love our as people. Please don't think this because
they're just doing their job. But the of matter is
like there is extra work to what you think. And like,
(28:19):
we got another ad vetting today and I'm looking at it,
I'm like, well, we know this already controversy, so we
definitely probably will say no. You know, like all these things.
I already know what Adie has said in turning it down.
It was a huge company, and it's like this is
what we have to do and then justify two or
three times about why we can't work with them.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, and even and it sucks too. It's like it's
hard for us when we are purchasing things. So for
the first couple of years I live in Minneapolis, we
were using you line for our boxes. We didn't have
branded boxes. We were using you line because they are
just across the state line and Wisconsin. I could go
pick them up, Like it was really easy. I didn't
(28:57):
have to paper shipping, and they were the cheap on
the market, well, they're the cheapest on the market because
they're a bajillion dollar industry and they're one of Trump's
largest donors. That family, the Uline family. As soon as
I learned that, I was like, like, now I have
to I have to pay more to find something. But
(29:17):
it ended up being great because then I found a
family owned box printing company here in Saint Paul that
they were so like, they were so wonderful right where
they like I was sick, and they like brought they
brought samples to my house just so I could like
choose the ink color and then we got them customerz
like it turned out great. Shout out to Tilsner Carton.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I self was like this like an office episode of
like business owners and like they do these like.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
What but help them. I didn't have the time at
the time to do my due diligence of like vetting.
It was just like where everybody got their boxes from,
you know, like oh, it was so frustrating and so
now yeah, so now we don't use you line, and
I suggest you not use you line because they are
a giant donor to the far right.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So there's so many conversations like that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But at least our audiences know that we are putting
in that due diligence now, like we learn our lessons.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yeah, and when we get calls in is nice.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah. And if we are doing I mean, there's only
so much work and research we can do, but we're
doing the best that we can. And I think that
our audiences as an audience of yours, I know I
appreciate it. And I also know that y'all need to
make money. You can't do this for free.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I'm sure people will be like why podcasting was like
that to begin with?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
It was, but it's not important, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
One of the other things I think about, especially when
it comes to like feminist businesses, you want to be
the person who supports the small businesses, that supports the
marginalized businesses as well. And for the longest time, Etsy
was the to go spot, and now you're getting all
this information about, oh, they're not being treated well. So
this comes to the point of like, okay, a, as
(31:12):
a small owner of a business, where do you go
b as a consumer? How do you navigate that as
well so that you're doing what you need to do
to truly help those businesses? Like how do you go
through all of that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, So there are a lot of marketplaces like at
C and for small businesses too, there are a lot
of like wholesale marketplaces. And one thing that I do
is like there's the ability to message like the business
owner on all of these marketplaces. At C we use
fair for a lot of our wholesale goods, and then
I always ask them like, how do you prefer that
I make this purchase? Like would you like to invoice
(31:48):
me directly? Because yeah, I want to make sure that
they're getting all of the dollars. So ye, Etsy's not
going to hold on to, you know, six thousand dollars
inevitably for six months or something like. What Etsy is
doing is really fun for a lot of makers. So
I would just go, you know, if I see something
that I really like, absolutely message the creator and just
say how what is the best way for me to
(32:10):
support you and and make it as easy as possible
for them. It's also like hard to do and it's
it's time consuming. So they're on Etsy for a reason,
and so I'm sure they're not going to be like, well,
don't buy from Etsy. They would rather you buy from
Etsy than not buy it, all right, So if you
don't have the time or energy or spoons to spend
on you know, going out of your way to message
(32:31):
the artist or the creator, like, it's fine, but if
you do have that extra energy to spend, please.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Do Essentially, Like what it comes down to is, I
know there's a lot of small businesses and trying to
take off. Essentially they're hoping that they'll go They're gonna
make the the gold mine of being viral. I know
that's the new thing, and that's let's just be real honest,
that's rare. That's not going to happen to most small
businesses as much as we would love it. I know,
like the small restaurants are hoping that by the kaith
Lee of TikTok will come through and and like just
(33:00):
blow up their business. But that's that's a rare occasion.
So for any business owner who's trying to be especially women,
because we know that they are the least likely to
get any help when it comes to advertising any of that.
How what's the best route for them to have their
business take off or at least to be profitable.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, oh that's okay, that's excellent. That's an excellent question. First, off.
I will say, like, even going viral doesn't do We
have had several of our TikTok videos, you know, get
five hundred thousand, a million views. It barely moves the
needle for us. We will get a lot of traffic,
(33:39):
but it doesn't necessarily traffic doesn't equal sales. Right, We'll
get a lot of followers, followers, you can't you can't
make money on followers. So it's like converting virality is
really hard for a lot of people. So there's that.
But I also think that there are so many really
really cool organizations that are created just for small business owners.
(34:04):
Insert identity here, right, if that's queer small business owners,
if that's black small business owners, and women small business
owners have Like, there are so many resources, and I'm
gonna shout out a couple of them in particular. I
was a part of the Tory Birch Foundation Fellowship in
twenty twenty one, and they select it's founded by Tory Birch,
And she actually created her fashion line so she could
(34:27):
give back. This is what I'm saying, Like, women do
cool with their businesses and their money. Like she two
likes fashion, but she was like, but I want my
fashion to do something and like support other woman business owners.
And so she launched the Tory Birch Foundation, which focuses
solely on women owned small businesses and getting them up
off the ground and giving them the resources that they
(34:49):
need to succeed. And so every year they pick fifty
women own small businesses across the country and I Famous
Book Club was one of them in twenty twenty one.
And it's a cohort of women owned businesses from all
different industries from you know, finance, tech to restaurants to
roofing companies, and we all come together online to learn
(35:16):
the basics of business, learn the ins and outs, learn
new skills. But also I think the most important thing
that comes out of these kind of incubators or accelerators
or fellowship programs is the connections that you make with
other small businesses. Like I have made so many close
friends through these kinds of things who will be there
to support me. They're just a text message away, you know.
(35:36):
Or we have a very active WhatsApp group that is
just like I have to mute it most of the
time because it is so so active, which is lovely, right.
So I think that women especially tend to lean on
their communities or or ought to learn how to lean
(35:58):
on our communities for support in all sorts of ways.
Whatever that means, Like, hey, does anybody have like a
marketing professional. I mean just like just yesterday, I got
an email from somebody in the Torri Brish Fellowship that
was like, Hey, I'm looking for somebody who specifically does
you know CpG consumer package goods sales through Klavio, which
(36:20):
is like an email client, And I was like, I
actually have somebody who works with integrations with WU commerce.
Like these are very very specific asks. It's like, oh wait,
there's somebody in this group that knows exactly what you
need and like can make that in direction. So it's
just a way to like to network and to like
grow your connections so you have you have those resources
(36:44):
when you need them. So yeah, the Torribrtch Foundation has
been fantastic the connections that I've made there. But also
there are local organizations like this too. So I'm also
part of Lunar Startups, which is just Minnesota based and
they work with under estimated and underrepresented founders, so they
(37:06):
specifically work with people of color, women and queer folks.
So I was a part of that. During the pandemic,
we started March like third of twenty twenty in person
in Saint Paul, and then the world cut out and
we all moved to Zoom crying, and it was great.
We were all in the trenches together at least like
fifteen you know, small business owners in the Twin Cities,
(37:27):
we're like, when do we need? Everything sucks? So I
was so glad to have that resource because I don't
know what I would have done otherwise. So just like,
building these communities is so necessary for small feminist business
owners because we cannot do this in a vacuum, but
we require That's one thing that we learned in the pandemic,
or we didn't learn the pandemic that we should have learned,
(37:48):
was like, we need to take care of the community's
needs in order to take care of our own needs.
And until we take care of the community around us,
you know whatever that means, however, you to find community like,
we cannot succeed full stop. So what is it? Yeah,
how do we take care of everybody's needs in order
to take care of our own needs? I think Robin
waal Chimer said it best in Braiding Sweet Grass it's
(38:10):
my favorite, one of my favorite lines of any book ever.
She says that all flourishing is mutual, like we cannot
flourish until we are in all of it together flourishing.
There's no individual flourishing like that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And it's true. The pandemic really showcased for like small businesses.
It started that conversation of like, oh, well, we've been
kind of pushing this to the side, ignoring this for
so long, and now we have We're trying to have
some conversations about it. Some more healthy or helpful than others.
But there was that aspect I did want to touch on,
(38:51):
and I'm hoping that this will give you some room
to really rant because it's something that bothers me is
a lot of time. Samantha kind of alluded to it.
Because we're feminist podcasts, we're women moms in the name,
we get a lot of ad requests from businesses that
(39:14):
are pretending to be feminists or any any like intersection
with it, like queer, Like during Black History Month, all
of this happens, and it's just like I've multiple times
been like, okay, but you're saying you're donating this, what
are you donating it to and then I never hear
anything again. What are your thoughts on the people who
(39:38):
are trying to use this feminist business model to pretend
and to cash in, but are actually like the most
superficial things.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Yes, yes, let me, let me get out my soapbox.
You're alluding to incredibly performative feminism, and it is most
likely white feminism if we're gonna keep it. In the
realm of feminist we get so many, so many book
pitches in particular that are like unleash the Goddess within,
(40:16):
or like your Warrior Woman says Rar, or like boss Babe,
but how to start your girl boss Empire. And it's like,
none of those things are feminist. That is so disgusting.
Those are so neoliberal, capitalist junk. Can we get to
the second and third layer of this, because your surface
layer of white feminism is I'm allergic to it, like
(40:38):
please please step away. Who Yeah, it makes me very angry.
But the thing is like I just simply say, like,
thank you so much. This does not align. We are
really trying to amplify the voices of folks on the margins,
not let's be honest, like rich white lawn yoga instructing
(41:02):
green smoothie drinking privileged women. And if you are that,
I'm so glad that you are here because you need
to You need this kind of information in your life.
The stuff that stuff, that stuff Mom never told you,
you know, covers. It's like, that's one way to broaden
your your horizons. And and yeah, there are a lot
(41:25):
of companies out there or organizations out there that just
give lip service to whatever is in the zeitgeist right
that they're raising money or they donate to, you know,
we say social justice organizations. We say we donate to
social justice organizations every month, and we don't name what
they are publicly because for a number of reasons, because
(41:50):
we're not marketing on that, like we're not using that
as a marketing tool, and so our members know where
the money is going. But also I am a strong believer.
I grew up Catholic. This is where I wanted to go.
I grew up Catholic, and like social justice Catholic. Though
like the real the realising everybody.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Get some emails.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
I'm just kidding, sorry, but not like but not not
Catholic or it's like anti abortion Catholic, but but like
feed the feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Catholic
is like how I grew up. And one of the
things that really stuck with me from Catholic school is
when there's a there's a verse in the Bible. And
don't ask me what part of the Bible, I have
(42:36):
no clue at this point, but there's a verse where
it says, when you pray, go into a closet and
pray in solitude. Nobody needs to know that you're praying, Like,
you're not praying for everybody's brownie points. That's performative. And
the same thing goes with our our social justice and
our activism, like, yes, we need to be out marching,
Yes we need to use our privilege for good those
(42:58):
of us who have privilege. Yes, we need to put
our bodies on the lines, especially white bodies on the
lines in front of people of color, Like, yes, those
are things we need to be doing. And at the
same time, your entire Facebook feed doesn't need to know
that you just donated fifty dollars to plan parenthood. That's
who is that doing. That's just making you feel good.
And so I think a lot of businesses think that
(43:19):
you know, saying that they're going to donate X, Y,
and Z is just like it's just lip service, it's
just a marketing ploy And it's really frustrating for me
to see as a company who has donated tens of
thousands of dollars of our profit to social justice organizations
across the world, but we don't use it. We're doing
(43:42):
it in our closet and praying God, I'm so sorry,
And this is how I get canceled o.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
So you know, it is so frustrating, and I can't
we can't go into this because it'll become a whole
railroad going off the railroad situation. But it's like, I
(44:14):
hate that. I'm into what you're doing. I'm into what
you're saying, and I asked for any details and then
none come forth. And then if they do, if you're like,
I don't know, bud Light, and you do this thing
and then they freak out and backtrack immediately, like it's
like illuminating because it tells me you literally have never
(44:35):
thought about what it must be like to be a
transperson in this case and all of the backlash that
might be, but you thought it would be cool to
cash it. Like it's like uninformed. It's like not even
it's malicious, but it's almost more uninformed than malicious.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
First off, that woman in particular Dylan, who just got
brutally attacked online because she got bud Light sent to her,
Like that's just my heart goes out to her. What
I would prefer bud Light Anheuser Busch and MBEV who
owns like every major beer company in this country, and beyond,
(45:13):
what I would prefer to see them do is have
trans folks on their board of directors. You know, Like,
I don't give a if they are giving a can
of beer to Dylan on TikTok. What I give about
is if you are including their voices in decision making rooms,
like transpolts need to be in the work room where
(45:34):
it happens, you know, like it's not just yeah, that
is the definition of performative. If they had had a
trans person in their like marketing, the influencer outreach division,
like that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
That's kind of the epitome of like the privilege that yeah,
people don't realize there is. So the fact that Annheuser Busch,
they had a little bit of backlash. All they did
was stay silent, literally allowing this woman to take all
of the threats and harassment and being like, yep, oh,
well that didn't work. That didn't well it did partially
pay out for a minute because there were supporters for
(46:10):
the second and then their silence and apology shows not
only their blindness, ignorance and harmful behavior in everything that
they just did without again talking to the right community.
Who did they talk to? They're like, this person's a
TikTok famous little let's send a beer, which we already know.
(46:30):
All the mess on that end we're not going to
talk about. But that kind of comes back to this
whole conversation of like who is this for, why are
you doing this? And what does this do? And then
when we look at who may be a woman, and
this is the whole conversation any and I've had plenty
of times women supporting women, but what are these women
actually doing and what are they doing that is good
(46:52):
for other women and other marginalized folks. So we have
to backtrack, like, no, it can't just be simply this
and this. There's a lot of women on businesses like
I think about this often because again coming back to Etsy,
because I tried to be is whatever. Well, I'm like, yeah,
but this person, oh, she's got she's got some things
on here that I do not want to support. She
has anti abortion, she has all these things, and I'm like,
I can't support that. I have to dig in to
(47:14):
see who she's selling to or someone who has no standards,
and I get to the point of like, yeah, you
have to make a business. I get it, but you're
willing to put mega stuff onto your stuff and then
sell it and then also Black Lives Matter that doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah. There was that That reminds me like when we
were doing whatever, I was purchasing for one of our
boxes ones. There was a product that I thought was
so cute and it came in all these different designs
and I was like, ooh, so close to purchasing, and
then I kept going and scrolling and I was like,
uh uh.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Oh when you go to the review, when you go
through the reviews and you see who she's oh, you're like, ma'am, oh,
we're in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
We are not supporting somebody who has Blue Lives Matter
on there.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
That's the other part to that, like we have to
hold our own accountable as well, and I say this
as an Asian woman who all this rhetorics and very
very like white supremacist rhetoric that I'm like, I do
not support this. I do not support them just because
they're an Asian woman. We have to have that conversation
of like that fine line of just because it seems
okay because on the outside, this is a person of color,
(48:21):
she's an Asian woman. Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. Even
queer people you're like, oh they're queer. Oh but they're
they're staunchly still somehow republican. Like I don't I don't
get this, but I have to know that this is
not necessarily just supporting, like that's right, you have to
dig deeper.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Poles come in every shade, race and you know color,
like everybody can has the potential to be a total.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Yes, that's how I live. Everybody's probably an I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I'm just kidding. So yeah, I like to think that
I want to support, you know, first and foremost intersectional
progressive businesses just personally. But yeah, and if that's not available,
a minority owned business, a woman owned business is better
(49:13):
than again, it's better than Amazon. But yes, being mindful
of like, what's that person likely going to do and
support with their dollars is really important to me?
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, And I do think you said something earlier that
I hadn't really thought about it before. But I often
complain about this extra work we have to do, and
I complain like it's like hm hmm, I wish I
could just be like, oh, yeah, I like that thing
that's mine, But you're right, it does. I have heard
from friends who have told me like, I like that,
(49:47):
I know that you do that. It makes me feel better.
And that's not to say we've made mistakes. We've said
yes to things that later turned out to be terrible,
and we try to learn from that and be like, Okay,
not that one again, because a lot of times in
our company they'll be like, you said yes to it once,
surely yes again. No, not always, but it is like,
(50:12):
it is a lot of work, and I don't think
everyone has the time to do it, yea, or even
the emotional because we were talking about this the other day,
like women typically or marginalized people typically are more drained
from what from the patriarchy, from white supremacy and all
this stuff.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
What's happening in the world.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yeah, so maybe you don't have the time to vet
certain things. So I do think that is a value.
I think that's something. I'm glad that you said that.
I'm gonna you put a more positive spin on this
whole thing for me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
And it comes from a place of privilege, right that
we I in particular, have the time to do this
research and can afford it. And that's what's really I
don't want to discount the privilege that I hold to
be really mindful as a as an agent of capitalism,
because it's not Not everybody has this privilege. Not everybody
(51:12):
can afford to shop at, you know, small mom and
pop grocery stores because they are more expensive. If Amazon
and Walmart are what you can budget for, I am
fully supportive of that. You know, that is where you
are in your life in the society to society sucks, Like,
(51:33):
don't feel bad if that's if that's where you are,
Please don't feel bad. Shame is not a tool of
social justice, right, Like, that's not going to help anybody
for me to say, like you're shopping at Walmart. Hell yeah, like.
Speaker 4 (51:47):
Some some people have to, And that's okay because I
do have a little bit more time and resources.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
I don't need to, but I am glad that it
exists for the people who need it. And that same
goes for every institution right that there are institutions that exist,
there are stores that exist for the people who need it,
and I'm glad they exist. Do I wish Do I
wish they had more ethical practices? Absolutely, But that's something
(52:22):
I can do with my resources, and my privilege is
to push back and to call, make the phone calls
and to say and demand better of these companies so
that they can continue to support underprivileged communities.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yes, this is true. I think about this every time
voting comes up, which, as you've probably heard, is rough
in Georgia. Is that like, I don't know how people
who have kids who work many jobs have the time
to vote but also have the time to research who
to vote for, because a lot of times it'll be
like I can't find information about any of this, so
(52:58):
I'm like, I guess this guy I don't know. So
that is a big conversation of It's frustrating because it's
like the Walmarts of the world are playing a part
and keeping us in this situation, but also they are
important because we are in the situation. It's it's frustrating,
(53:21):
but yeah, I mean it is, especially you know, we're
in city, but when I was in the small town,
it's only game in town. That was like that was
it exactly same?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, I grew up in northern Indiana, and it's like,
you got your groceries at Walmart, you bought your you know,
incidentals on Amazon. It's just what you do. There was
a Barnes and Noble, like that's that was the bookstore.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yes, and you go hang out there and you were cool.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yes, yeah, you get your Starbucks. Yes, that's fine, fine,
because that's what is aig and that's what is in
a budget. And yeah, I'm never going to be here
to shame somebody for doing what they need to do
to get by.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Yes, well, thank you so much, Renee for coming on
here to spend the light. You are a friend. Officially, Yes,
we could talk forever, but I suppose we should seriously
just to sign off for this one. But let's hang
out and just complain. I feel like I'm in a
complaining movie, which is rare for.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Me's a hobby that I have complaining that's less.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Where can the
good listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (54:37):
The best place to go is Feminist book Club dot com.
We're on Instagram at your Feminist book Club because Feminist
book Club is taken on Instagram, but Feminist book Club
is available on TikTok, so you can find this Feminius
book Club on TikTok And uh, yeah, everything, everything's on
our website though, that's the best, the best place to go.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yes, And and you have show notes which I am
very jealous of.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
They're not but there what we have, so I'm very jealous.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
Yes, just go check it out listeners. It's amazing. Also,
we will be on the show. We'll see how this goes.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
In the meantime, if you would like to contact us,
you can. Our email is stuff Adia mom Stuff at
iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
mom Stuff Podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
I Never told you. We have a tea public store
you can buy merch on there. Also we have a
book coming out well, you can reorder it as stuff
You should read books dot com. Thanks us always to
our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
(55:39):
contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening
stuff I never told you. Inspection by heart Radio. For
more podcast in my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts where you listen to
you Davish
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stefan
Never Told You, a production of iHeartRadio. And today we
are so so so happy to be joined by Renee
Powers of Feminist book Club, the podcast, the business, the
(00:28):
subscription box, all of it.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Thank you so much for joining us. I am so
excited to be here. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
We're so excited to have you. We've already like we
do this all the time. We just adopt people as friends.
So you're like our friend.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Perfect.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
We're gonna have really fun hangout times where we complain
about business stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Yes, I love this for all of us.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
I love that your podcast just fits perfectly with ours.
And I'm like, why haven't we've been hanging out before.
That's that's more that's stranger to me than the this part.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
It's true, it's true, and this is this is a
really fun thing because you're coming on our podcast and
we're going to be on your podcast, which I'm gonna
admit I'm a little nervous about because you feel a
little bit more polished.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Oh oh, it's all a facod it's all fake, fake
it till you make it, is my mantra.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Yeah, and I love that as our like twelve year
veteran here are saying she's nervous, and yes, still get nervous.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
It's like I want a plane with turbulence, right.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
I have to tell you though, And I was telling
Samantha this earlier that I started podcasting because of stuff
Mom never told you, Like I started listening back in
like twenty ten, is that right, Like yeah, like even
before Caroline came on, it was it was Kristin and Molly.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, And that's what inspired me to podcast. I remember drive.
I had a thirty five minute commute out to my
grad school program, and I would it was a straight
shot and I would just cueue up all the back episodes.
I A fan ever said, so this feels really like
I don't know, this is really fulfilling to me. So
thanks for thanks for chatting with me.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
I love that so much. Oh my gosh, I'm almost
like I'm thinking back to oh my time, because I
was an editor at that point. I was the editor
of the show. So that's so cool. It's like those
connections you can make over technology and you don't realize, yes,
like he's made them.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
The parasocial relationships have become real social relationship.
Speaker 1 (02:40):
Oh my gosh. Yes, yes, it's so odd too working
in this business when you, like, as an editor, I
would know such personal facts about people who have never
spoken to me before, but I work with them. It
was just such a strange thing. Is like, you probably
(03:00):
don't even know my name, but I know when you
like lost your virgin very bizarre. Well, okay, can you
introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Yeah, so, as you said, my name Swerna Powers. I
she her pronouns. I am based in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and
Minneapolis proper, not one of the urbs.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Okay, that's a big thing.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's a thing for everyone, like way exactly. Yeah. But
I am the founder of Feminist Book Club. We are
a monthly book subscription service and media company. We use
literature as a launchpad to have difficult conversations about social
justice and we've been doing this for just over five
(03:49):
years now. This grew out of a failed dissertation. Oh wow,
So I'm actually I'm a I call myself a pH dropout.
I spent eight years in grad school, six years in
a PhD program, and I was studying gender and communication
and technology and got to the point where I did
(04:11):
all my coursework, I passed my exams, and then I
went to propose my dissertation and I failed it three
times and I was like, I'm out. Yeah, it was
just like horrible on my mental health. So I was
in Chicago. My partner is from Minneapolis. We moved up
here together, and I was like, well, I had this
(04:32):
interview project as part of my dissertation. I'm just going
to do it as a podcast. And like I said, stuff,
mom never told you got me into podcasting, like listening
to podcasts and feminist podcasting I think is such an
interesting medium. And so thanks to y'all and what you do.
Feminist book Clubs started as a podcast, and my listeners
(04:55):
would say, like, you're always giving you know, book recommendations,
like what if you had an actual book club, And
it just grew organically from there. We started just a
bunch of friends in a Facebook group reading the same books,
and now we have you know, a thousand members around
the world and our own platform and app, and we
talk to authors and we have a you know, bi
(05:18):
weekly podcast. Bi weekly has twice a week, not every
other week, it's twice a week podcast and daily blog.
We're big on TikTok. We're big on Instagram. It's just
rad as hell. So that's what we are and what
I do. I just kind of guide the ship.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Yes, and it is quite the ship. You've got quite
a large team. I was a little jealous when I
was looking at it, right, This is amazing. You get
to work with these this many people.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
They're so cool to. Every single one of our contributors
and staff is just like the coolest people I've ever met.
And I am big on surrounding myself with people that
are much smarter than me. So we do have We've
got kind of our executive team of four of us
that our podcast producer, We've got our blog editor in chief,
(06:09):
and then our Captain of commerce is their title, and
their name is Raw and Ron and I work in
Minneapolis together in an office space, and so we are
the only two full time employees. But everyone else is
a contributor and you know, doing two to four pieces
of content every month and helping out on you know,
(06:31):
the community and creating all sorts of really cool conversations
to starting really interesting conversations of like things that they
are interested in and therefore I am now interested in.
So it's Yeah, our content really runs the gamut of
a little bit of everything. We've got you know, someone
who works for the federal government. We've got a former
(06:52):
park ranger. We've got a science communication like professional, like
feminism applies to everything, and we are able to use
our team of contributors to highlight that. We've got like
a film writer, like it's just cool, it's just cool.
Everybody is just yeah, a romance author like what. Yeah,
(07:18):
it's a great team.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
Yeah, that's awesome. And I do want to come back
to the thing you said about being a feminist podcasts
in this this space in a second, But just first,
I have a couple questions about how has podcasting treated you,
how has it been? And then also I find we
(07:40):
have a book club on here. It is once a
month and it's amazing, But I find that it's difficult
to like read a whole book for podcasts, which sounds terrible,
but like when it's your job, like you're researching all
the time, you're reading stuff all the time, it just
becomes like okay, and I hate this, but it's true.
(08:01):
We'll be like this book is too long, we can't
read this one. Have you found that that has sort
of leaked into your personal enjoyment of reading.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Mmmm. What a good question. I'm h So. One of
the reasons I started Feminist Book Club is because I
was so tired of reading like research, like dead old
white guys writing about postmodernism like over it. So anything
that's not that has always been fun for me. But
(08:35):
to your point, yes, there are some books that kind
of feel like homework, whether that's for you know, one
of our books of the month, or if that's the
guest that we're gonna have on the podcast. I read
everybody's books that's on the podcast. So yes, I don't
know what else to say about that without affending people.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
I'm not trying to do got to interview.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Gosh, But what I will say is I'm a very
fast reader, and so I always have at least three
books going at once, and if if one, if I'm
reading something for quote unquote fun, so I don't have
like the author coming on or I don't have to
write discussion questions for our book club. I am not
(09:31):
afraid of not finishing a book like time is too precious.
I will I will put it if it's like fifty
pages in, and I am not feeling it. It's just
not the right time for me. It's not you know,
the vibe that I'm looking for. I will shelve it.
I'm I'm unapologetic about not finishing books. I also listen
(09:53):
to most books on audio rather than reading physical books,
and Feminist Book Club does have an audiobook subscription nice.
And I find that being able to constantly be listening
to something, I get through so many more books because
I can do it, you know, while I'm walking my dog,
while I'm washing dishes, while I'm doing yardwork, you know.
So I at nine percent of the time I've got
(10:15):
you know, earbuds in and I'm listening to a book
on at least one point five speed.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
Oh.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
Interesting. I love it when people are write it and
like I only listen to it this this this speed.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Like all right, your audiobook is great at one point
five speed.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
Right, that's good to know myself as well, so if
not too a chipmug a fuck.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, you both sound great. That's a great speed
for y'all.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yes, Oh my gosh, I love that so much.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I like it.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
It's true though, it is. Oh, I'm sure we'll probably
talk about this a bit when we are on your show.
But it is one of those things that we kind
of had to say to our boss, which felt strange.
It felt like he was assuming this is gonna be
a grand slam because you've got like an audience, and
it's like, yeah, but people listen to things because they
(11:12):
can do something else while they're listening to the thing,
and it's just different mediums, Like I'm not sure it's
going to translate necessarily. But both Samantha and I foolishly
didn't realize we were going to do an audiobook, which
I'm so happy about, like it's very cool. I want
to be accessible all that stuff, but I just it
is different when you can walk your dog or cook
or do something while you're listening to a book.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
And I'm one of those people that I always have
to be doing something with my hands, Like yeah, so
it's hard for me to sit down and read a book.
I'm very like fidgety, and so what I often do.
Then I got really into cross stitching. Yes, yes, so
I have just dozens of cross stitching projects that I'm
(11:57):
working on, and I will just sit on the couch,
listen to my book and and do my little do
my little cross stitching because I'm seventy five years old
and unashamed of it. And I'm also in like I'm
calling at my cozy mystery era, like all I want
to read are like women solving murders, but like cozy yes,
so yes, I just make me a cup of tea
(12:19):
and you know, reserve a bed at the old Folks
Home for me because I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:25):
Sounds does me?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
No, No, Samantha is looking for a lazier version of
cozy game.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Yeah, like I'm.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
Like trying to actually do things and having quests. No,
that's like good, I'm good. I just I want to
do something in less than that. What do I just
click on things?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Thank you? That's how That's how I got If you
want to talk about games, That's how I got into
animal crossing because it's just like, yeah, I just want
to sit here and fish.
Speaker 3 (12:50):
Well that's the thing is like I literally stopped building things,
so it's like I don't want this to be a
whole village. I wanted to be my five people, and
I just go selfish. I don't understand what this is
even to the point like I actually try to start
knitting and I did. Okay, I did a couple of rows,
and I was like, and I'm done. So I'm really
(13:13):
good at it.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
You know, it's all right to change an audiobook.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
You do a few more and you can do a
few more roads.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
I am an odd person when it comes to audiobooks.
I do like I will play phone games while I'm
listening to the audio, or I will sam I will
work do the double whammy of that. So yeah, but
I like your version better except for the fact that
I'm not talented enough to do this stitching. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
Oh, it's just following. It's just following a map. It's
so easy.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
This is what people tell me. And then I try
it and then it comes out of blob. I'm like,
you lie to me.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
All the stitches and start over, which is also really satisfying.
Is it okay?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
Because in my mind I'm just automatically breaking the string
and throwing it across the room and screaming up my failures.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Fair enough, that sounds yeah. I could chat all day
about this kind of stuff. But you did propose a
(14:22):
serious topic for this episode, which is something that we
struggle with that we think about a lot. And that's
when you are an intersectional feminists and that's something that's
part of you, but you're still in this capitalist space
that is not that and in fact and typical to that.
(14:46):
So how to be a feminist in a space that
is not when we do have to, you know, have
livelihoods and make money and survive, but how to do that?
So if you can just talk about like your initial
because you said you've done a lot of interviews about
this lately, you've been thinking about it lately, sort of
(15:06):
the when you sent this idea to us. What was
on your mind? What are you thinking about?
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Yeah, so it's something that I think about constantly, is
how to run a feminist business, because, like you said,
that feels contradictory and it's something I'm I changed my
mind about all the time. And this is something you
all discussed in your book too, and I love that
you talk about this. Fear of failure is detrimental to
(15:32):
the feminist movement. And I've been screaming that from the
top of my lungs, right that you know, if I
don't show up try and fail, Like, if I don't
show up and try, knowing that I could fail, Like what,
that's not moving anybody forward?
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
So all I'm saying is like, this is my approach
and I will likely fail, but that's okay because we
will all learn something from it. Right, So, how do
we participate in capitalism and critique capitalism at the same
time is something I think about a lot. And the
the short answer is capitalism is compulsory, Like there's nothing
(16:09):
that we can do to remove ourselves from capitalism and
still be just like a functioning human in the society.
So that means that we have to participate in capitalism ethically,
And so how do we do that? What does that
look like? And so that's what I've been like, how
to be an anti capitalist business is like really hard,
(16:31):
But how to be an ethical business that prioritizes the
needs of its customers, the needs of its employees, the
needs of its staff before profit. I think that is
what sets feminists businesses apart from your run of the mill,
even small business. I was gonna say, like Walmart, but like,
(16:53):
even there are a lot of small businesses that are
just in it for the bottom line. Yeah, every decision
that is made in this business from a place of
people over profit. Like, yes, we have to pay our bills,
but if by chance we can't pay our bills. We
will still pay our people, and that's a real thing.
(17:15):
Right We're in a recession, and there are there are
times like right now, I was just telling you all
before we started recording, like our office space was broken
into four times in the last month and we lost,
you know, over five thousand dollars worth of equipment, Like
all of our festival stuff is gone. It's just it's
so frustrating and insurance won't cover it, which is really great.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Yeah, oh I love it.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
So like we started a I believe deeply in mutual
eight too, and so we started to GoFundMe and we're
starting to like recoup some of those costs and anything
left over is going to start to help us get
the ball rolling on reincorporating as a feminist co op,
an employee owned co op. So that's I wanted to
get this business off the ground, so it was stable,
(18:03):
it was running, it had systems and processes right.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
And.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
Then I wanted to step away. And so that's what
we're in the process of right now, is putting the
business in the hands of the actual community. Like I said,
my background is in feminist theory, and so I come
at this not from a business standpoint. I don't have
a background in business. I don't have a business degree,
but I come from this from a theory background. And
what does it look like when we put feminist theory
(18:31):
into action? And there is a research method called feminist
participatory action research, and I have tried my best to
adapt that to running a business. And what that really means.
It's a feedback loop, right of you know, we're thinking
about this decision. What do you think we want to
go this direction? What do you think this goes all
(18:54):
the way down to Like the books that we pick,
I don't pick them, our members pick them. I choose
a theme because I'm like, well, we haven't read Native
American voices lately, so like, let's do Native American voices
month something along those lines. We haven't read trance voices,
we haven't read about Hollywood, so like our next Our
next theme is in the zeitgeist, right because they're on strike.
(19:18):
But it's a night of the movie, so we're gonna
be having conversations about the strike and the labor movement,
but you know, all under the guise of reading fun
Hollywood stories. So I propose the theme. Our members suggest
titles based on that theme and then everybody votes and
that's what gets chosen as the book of the month.
So yeah, learning with and from participants instead of like teaching,
(19:42):
like just not assuming I'm the smartest person in the room,
because I'm absolutely not. But you know, bringing our community
into the decision making has been really rewarding. And then
and then they feel invested in it too. So I
think that's I just gave you, like all of my
word salad about about running a feminist business. So yes,
(20:04):
let's let's let's let's synthesize here, right, So restructuring into
a co op, people over profit, prioritizing our customers' opinions
and asking for their feedback, I think, and opening up
this feedback loop. I think that are those are the
hallmarks of how we run a feminist business and how
we uh yeah, push back against and participate in capitalism
(20:28):
in in an anti capitalist way. We're not in it
to make a pajillion dollars. Nobody sells books to make
a pajillion dollars unless your name is Jeff Bezos and
he can give.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Agreed, agree, Also, can we actually make money? Because I
want to make money with the book. How do we
do this Annie.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
Yeah, sorry not to be the bearer of bad news,
but son of them. Okay, sorry friends, but yes, yeah,
thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:03):
I love the wrap up that was. You can tell
I've definitely done presentation. I see your PhD in here,
like trying to do the defense.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
Not quite a PhD. I'm considered abd all the dissertation.
Speaker 3 (21:17):
Yes, well I'm gonna I'm gonna say you have it
because you you were.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Thank you, You're so you can still call me professor Powers.
I will, I will every day.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
But yeah, I think that's such an interesting conversation because
we've had to have a back and forth about like, yeah,
we need money to live. Uh, so we can't say
because like we have a lot of ads and advertising,
and we try to be very very very conscious of
what we say yes and no to, and of course
sometimes we just don't have any control at all. And
then the like pushback we get because we are an
(21:44):
absolute and we stand by the intersectional feminist, we make
mistakes or we may not know every information because as
much as we want to be those upstanding people, the
fact of the matter is this is a job. We
have to make money. I have to do things kind
of the same way, and I was in social word
of like, I'm doing some things that I really hate,
but I'm trying to do it in the best and
(22:05):
more conscious way possible, knowing that I'm finding a system
that's rigged against everyone, every marginalized group in so many ways.
Like have you had a lot of conversations on how
to like navigate that for yourself, especially when it comes
to like advertising and all of those.
Speaker 2 (22:21):
Yeah, we do sell advertising, and we are very picky
about who we are willing to work with. And that's
I mean, and that's one of the pluses of being
independent is we don't have a parent company that we
have to make money for, Like we are making money
for ourselves to keep this ship afloat. So we only
work with women, gender non conforming or queer or people
(22:46):
of color in terms of like the books that we spotlight,
the the companies that we work with for like the
products that come with the books, because we do send
out like a sticker or like a bookmark or something
like small cute, and we do quarterly boxes that are
full of goodies and books and those all those things
come from small marginalized identity businesses, including like our our
(23:10):
web developer and our you know, our podcast editor are
our printer that we use for like inserts and stickers
and stuff. So like when we spend money on something,
we are doing that within our values. Would we take
money from someone, I don't care who we take money
from as long as that product is aligned with us. Gosh,
(23:33):
and very rarely have we worked with CIS men and
CIS owned businesses, this male owned businesses. But I'm not
gonna say no to if like Casper Mattresses or something like,
I'm just gonna assume their own by a white guy.
If Casper Mattress wants to like give me a bajillion
dollars to pitch them on our podcast, like or like
(23:55):
a free mattress like thank you, yeah, yes, and like
one all of our friends, you know, like right, because
you're getting me money, and I feel like that's feminist.
But if it's like if it's like a company that
sells only like Maga hats, absolutely not, Like I don't
care if you give me a bajillion dollars, I'm not
(24:16):
going to you know, sell ar fifteens on our podcast.
But right, but like a mattress owned by a cess,
why guy, probably, yeah, yep, So like that's like we
could be really picky, but thankfully we haven't had to
have run into those issues. It's the flows of money, right,
(24:37):
It's the flow of capitalism and like redistributing it. And
that's one thing also is like we work primarily with
women owned businesses because studies have shown when you put
capital in the hands of a woman owned business a,
you will lift generations out of poverty, but be it
will also be redistributed amongst that community. So the fact
(24:58):
that you know, we are more likely to give our dollars,
we are one hundred percent likely to give our dollars
to small women and minority own businesses just means that
that money continues to do good in whatever community they
serve instead of going into If we were to give
money to Bezos, for instance, that's just going into his
(25:19):
pockets and into his like four oh one k. Does
he even have a four oh one k? Probably not,
like he is a four oh one k, but like, well,
you know what I mean is that it's going into
like investments, which doesn't do anybody any good except for him.
Speaker 3 (25:31):
So yeah, yeah, yeah, you ended up hitting on a
topic which was an inside joke for us about me
trying to get a damn mattress from Jump, like, because right, well,
that's hilarious. Right before I started everyone that was one
of the big things, individual mattresses, and I was like,
I want one.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
That started the best we've gotten as vibrators. We got vibrators.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
Be happy with that too, but.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
They were woman owned. They're a woman Latina owned, so like.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
We had someone on who had those amazing vibrators.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
I want one.
Speaker 3 (26:01):
We never got it, though I was really hoping, Oh, I'm.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Sorry for it. I paid for it, but I got
it anyway. Moving well, that's one of the interesting things
about I think about this a lot, and sometimes I
think this is kind of a petty thought, but sometimes
I'm like, no, this is completely legitimate. But we sometimes
(26:27):
get teased because we turned down a lot of ads.
We really do. And there was this infamous study so
Matha didn't do it, but I had to fill out
like this huge form where you just it was. It
took me four hours and it was just like sponsors
(26:49):
that you might be okay with working with. And I
feel like for people who want to uphold intersectional feminism,
that was a homework assignment because I literally had to
look up every company, Yep, what they do, where do
they donate their money? All of this stuff, And I
think that people who issued it were just holly white
(27:11):
men who didn't think like I'm not. They're like, oh,
do you like this or do you not like that?
Like that kind of dichotomy versus wait, what do they
stand for? What do they do? And sometimes I get
a little grumpy because I'll hear some male colleagues of
ours We're like, oh, I just said yes to that
because I like that. I'm like, well, okay, but did
you know about this? Right?
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Right?
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Right?
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Did you know they single handedly caused the fires on
MAUI like.
Speaker 3 (27:36):
You know, like the content, we really would have an
ad that we said yes to two years prior and
then come back and go like, oh, well, here's a
new controversy and we can't use them now, whether it's
like strike things or union things or or do you
recall or you found out that the CEO was a
man who did not care about people when it was
branded as women owned, Like, there're so many things that
(27:56):
came back. We're like, what's happening? And then not only
do we say no and probably Anie, because ay does
this work, I'll love you Anie, She's already justified. Why
we get another pushback like are you sure now? Tell
me why again? Tell us why again? And they're not.
We love our as people. Please don't think this because
they're just doing their job. But the of matter is
like there is extra work to what you think. And like,
(28:19):
we got another ad vetting today and I'm looking at it,
I'm like, well, we know this already controversy, so we
definitely probably will say no. You know, like all these things.
I already know what Adie has said in turning it down.
It was a huge company, and it's like this is
what we have to do and then justify two or
three times about why we can't work with them.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Yeah, and even and it sucks too. It's like it's
hard for us when we are purchasing things. So for
the first couple of years I live in Minneapolis, we
were using you line for our boxes. We didn't have
branded boxes. We were using you line because they are
just across the state line and Wisconsin. I could go
pick them up, Like it was really easy. I didn't
(28:57):
have to paper shipping, and they were the cheap on
the market, well, they're the cheapest on the market because
they're a bajillion dollar industry and they're one of Trump's
largest donors. That family, the Uline family. As soon as
I learned that, I was like, like, now I have
to I have to pay more to find something. But
(29:17):
it ended up being great because then I found a
family owned box printing company here in Saint Paul that
they were so like, they were so wonderful right where
they like I was sick, and they like brought they
brought samples to my house just so I could like
choose the ink color and then we got them customerz
like it turned out great. Shout out to Tilsner Carton.
Speaker 3 (29:40):
I self was like this like an office episode of
like business owners and like they do these like.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
What but help them. I didn't have the time at
the time to do my due diligence of like vetting.
It was just like where everybody got their boxes from,
you know, like oh, it was so frustrating and so
now yeah, so now we don't use you line, and
I suggest you not use you line because they are
a giant donor to the far right.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
So there's so many conversations like that.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
But at least our audiences know that we are putting
in that due diligence now, like we learn our lessons.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
Yeah, and when we get calls in is nice.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yeah. And if we are doing I mean, there's only
so much work and research we can do, but we're
doing the best that we can. And I think that
our audiences as an audience of yours, I know I
appreciate it. And I also know that y'all need to
make money. You can't do this for free.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
I'm sure people will be like why podcasting was like
that to begin with?
Speaker 2 (30:38):
It was, but it's not important, you know.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
One of the other things I think about, especially when
it comes to like feminist businesses, you want to be
the person who supports the small businesses, that supports the
marginalized businesses as well. And for the longest time, Etsy
was the to go spot, and now you're getting all
this information about, oh, they're not being treated well. So
this comes to the point of like, okay, a, as
(31:12):
a small owner of a business, where do you go
b as a consumer? How do you navigate that as
well so that you're doing what you need to do
to truly help those businesses? Like how do you go
through all of that.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Yeah, So there are a lot of marketplaces like at
C and for small businesses too, there are a lot
of like wholesale marketplaces. And one thing that I do
is like there's the ability to message like the business
owner on all of these marketplaces. At C we use
fair for a lot of our wholesale goods, and then
I always ask them like, how do you prefer that
I make this purchase? Like would you like to invoice
(31:48):
me directly? Because yeah, I want to make sure that
they're getting all of the dollars. So ye, Etsy's not
going to hold on to, you know, six thousand dollars
inevitably for six months or something like. What Etsy is
doing is really fun for a lot of makers. So
I would just go, you know, if I see something
that I really like, absolutely message the creator and just
say how what is the best way for me to
(32:10):
support you and and make it as easy as possible
for them. It's also like hard to do and it's
it's time consuming. So they're on Etsy for a reason,
and so I'm sure they're not going to be like, well,
don't buy from Etsy. They would rather you buy from
Etsy than not buy it, all right, So if you
don't have the time or energy or spoons to spend
on you know, going out of your way to message
(32:31):
the artist or the creator, like, it's fine, but if
you do have that extra energy to spend, please.
Speaker 3 (32:38):
Do Essentially, Like what it comes down to is, I
know there's a lot of small businesses and trying to
take off. Essentially they're hoping that they'll go They're gonna
make the the gold mine of being viral. I know
that's the new thing, and that's let's just be real honest,
that's rare. That's not going to happen to most small
businesses as much as we would love it. I know,
like the small restaurants are hoping that by the kaith
Lee of TikTok will come through and and like just
(33:00):
blow up their business. But that's that's a rare occasion.
So for any business owner who's trying to be especially women,
because we know that they are the least likely to
get any help when it comes to advertising any of that.
How what's the best route for them to have their
business take off or at least to be profitable.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah, oh that's okay, that's excellent. That's an excellent question. First, off.
I will say, like, even going viral doesn't do We
have had several of our TikTok videos, you know, get
five hundred thousand, a million views. It barely moves the
needle for us. We will get a lot of traffic,
(33:39):
but it doesn't necessarily traffic doesn't equal sales. Right, We'll
get a lot of followers, followers, you can't you can't
make money on followers. So it's like converting virality is
really hard for a lot of people. So there's that.
But I also think that there are so many really
really cool organizations that are created just for small business owners.
(34:04):
Insert identity here, right, if that's queer small business owners,
if that's black small business owners, and women small business
owners have Like, there are so many resources, and I'm
gonna shout out a couple of them in particular. I
was a part of the Tory Birch Foundation Fellowship in
twenty twenty one, and they select it's founded by Tory Birch,
And she actually created her fashion line so she could
(34:27):
give back. This is what I'm saying, Like, women do
cool with their businesses and their money. Like she two
likes fashion, but she was like, but I want my
fashion to do something and like support other woman business owners.
And so she launched the Tory Birch Foundation, which focuses
solely on women owned small businesses and getting them up
off the ground and giving them the resources that they
(34:49):
need to succeed. And so every year they pick fifty
women own small businesses across the country and I Famous
Book Club was one of them in twenty twenty one.
And it's a cohort of women owned businesses from all
different industries from you know, finance, tech to restaurants to
roofing companies, and we all come together online to learn
(35:16):
the basics of business, learn the ins and outs, learn
new skills. But also I think the most important thing
that comes out of these kind of incubators or accelerators
or fellowship programs is the connections that you make with
other small businesses. Like I have made so many close
friends through these kinds of things who will be there
to support me. They're just a text message away, you know.
(35:36):
Or we have a very active WhatsApp group that is
just like I have to mute it most of the
time because it is so so active, which is lovely, right.
So I think that women especially tend to lean on
their communities or or ought to learn how to lean
(35:58):
on our communities for support in all sorts of ways.
Whatever that means, Like, hey, does anybody have like a
marketing professional. I mean just like just yesterday, I got
an email from somebody in the Torri Brish Fellowship that
was like, Hey, I'm looking for somebody who specifically does
you know CpG consumer package goods sales through Klavio, which
(36:20):
is like an email client, And I was like, I
actually have somebody who works with integrations with WU commerce.
Like these are very very specific asks. It's like, oh wait,
there's somebody in this group that knows exactly what you
need and like can make that in direction. So it's
just a way to like to network and to like
grow your connections so you have you have those resources
(36:44):
when you need them. So yeah, the Torribrtch Foundation has
been fantastic the connections that I've made there. But also
there are local organizations like this too. So I'm also
part of Lunar Startups, which is just Minnesota based and
they work with under estimated and underrepresented founders, so they
(37:06):
specifically work with people of color, women and queer folks.
So I was a part of that. During the pandemic,
we started March like third of twenty twenty in person
in Saint Paul, and then the world cut out and
we all moved to Zoom crying, and it was great.
We were all in the trenches together at least like
fifteen you know, small business owners in the Twin Cities,
(37:27):
we're like, when do we need? Everything sucks? So I
was so glad to have that resource because I don't
know what I would have done otherwise. So just like,
building these communities is so necessary for small feminist business
owners because we cannot do this in a vacuum, but
we require That's one thing that we learned in the pandemic,
or we didn't learn the pandemic that we should have learned,
(37:48):
was like, we need to take care of the community's
needs in order to take care of our own needs.
And until we take care of the community around us,
you know whatever that means, however, you to find community like,
we cannot succeed full stop. So what is it? Yeah,
how do we take care of everybody's needs in order
to take care of our own needs? I think Robin
waal Chimer said it best in Braiding Sweet Grass it's
(38:10):
my favorite, one of my favorite lines of any book ever.
She says that all flourishing is mutual, like we cannot
flourish until we are in all of it together flourishing.
There's no individual flourishing like that.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
And it's true. The pandemic really showcased for like small businesses.
It started that conversation of like, oh, well, we've been
kind of pushing this to the side, ignoring this for
so long, and now we have We're trying to have
some conversations about it. Some more healthy or helpful than others.
But there was that aspect I did want to touch on,
(38:51):
and I'm hoping that this will give you some room
to really rant because it's something that bothers me is
a lot of time. Samantha kind of alluded to it.
Because we're feminist podcasts, we're women moms in the name,
we get a lot of ad requests from businesses that
(39:14):
are pretending to be feminists or any any like intersection
with it, like queer, Like during Black History Month, all
of this happens, and it's just like I've multiple times
been like, okay, but you're saying you're donating this, what
are you donating it to and then I never hear
anything again. What are your thoughts on the people who
(39:38):
are trying to use this feminist business model to pretend
and to cash in, but are actually like the most
superficial things.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Yes, yes, let me, let me get out my soapbox.
You're alluding to incredibly performative feminism, and it is most
likely white feminism if we're gonna keep it. In the
realm of feminist we get so many, so many book
pitches in particular that are like unleash the Goddess within,
(40:16):
or like your Warrior Woman says Rar, or like boss Babe,
but how to start your girl boss Empire. And it's like,
none of those things are feminist. That is so disgusting.
Those are so neoliberal, capitalist junk. Can we get to
the second and third layer of this, because your surface
layer of white feminism is I'm allergic to it, like
(40:38):
please please step away. Who Yeah, it makes me very angry.
But the thing is like I just simply say, like,
thank you so much. This does not align. We are
really trying to amplify the voices of folks on the margins,
not let's be honest, like rich white lawn yoga instructing
(41:02):
green smoothie drinking privileged women. And if you are that,
I'm so glad that you are here because you need
to You need this kind of information in your life.
The stuff that stuff, that stuff Mom never told you,
you know, covers. It's like, that's one way to broaden
your your horizons. And and yeah, there are a lot
(41:25):
of companies out there or organizations out there that just
give lip service to whatever is in the zeitgeist right
that they're raising money or they donate to, you know,
we say social justice organizations. We say we donate to
social justice organizations every month, and we don't name what
they are publicly because for a number of reasons, because
(41:50):
we're not marketing on that, like we're not using that
as a marketing tool, and so our members know where
the money is going. But also I am a strong believer.
I grew up Catholic. This is where I wanted to go.
I grew up Catholic, and like social justice Catholic. Though
like the real the realising everybody.
Speaker 3 (42:12):
Get some emails.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
I'm just kidding, sorry, but not like but not not
Catholic or it's like anti abortion Catholic, but but like
feed the feed the hungry and clothe the naked. Catholic
is like how I grew up. And one of the
things that really stuck with me from Catholic school is
when there's a there's a verse in the Bible. And
don't ask me what part of the Bible, I have
(42:36):
no clue at this point, but there's a verse where
it says, when you pray, go into a closet and
pray in solitude. Nobody needs to know that you're praying, Like,
you're not praying for everybody's brownie points. That's performative. And
the same thing goes with our our social justice and
our activism, like, yes, we need to be out marching,
Yes we need to use our privilege for good those
(42:58):
of us who have privilege. Yes, we need to put
our bodies on the lines, especially white bodies on the
lines in front of people of color, Like, yes, those
are things we need to be doing. And at the
same time, your entire Facebook feed doesn't need to know
that you just donated fifty dollars to plan parenthood. That's
who is that doing. That's just making you feel good.
And so I think a lot of businesses think that
(43:19):
you know, saying that they're going to donate X, Y,
and Z is just like it's just lip service, it's
just a marketing ploy And it's really frustrating for me
to see as a company who has donated tens of
thousands of dollars of our profit to social justice organizations
across the world, but we don't use it. We're doing
(43:42):
it in our closet and praying God, I'm so sorry,
And this is how I get canceled o.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
So you know, it is so frustrating, and I can't
we can't go into this because it'll become a whole
railroad going off the railroad situation. But it's like, I
(44:14):
hate that. I'm into what you're doing. I'm into what
you're saying, and I asked for any details and then
none come forth. And then if they do, if you're like,
I don't know, bud Light, and you do this thing
and then they freak out and backtrack immediately, like it's
like illuminating because it tells me you literally have never
(44:35):
thought about what it must be like to be a
transperson in this case and all of the backlash that
might be, but you thought it would be cool to
cash it. Like it's like uninformed. It's like not even
it's malicious, but it's almost more uninformed than malicious.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
First off, that woman in particular Dylan, who just got
brutally attacked online because she got bud Light sent to her,
Like that's just my heart goes out to her. What
I would prefer bud Light Anheuser Busch and MBEV who
owns like every major beer company in this country, and beyond,
(45:13):
what I would prefer to see them do is have
trans folks on their board of directors. You know, Like,
I don't give a if they are giving a can
of beer to Dylan on TikTok. What I give about
is if you are including their voices in decision making rooms,
like transpolts need to be in the work room where
(45:34):
it happens, you know, like it's not just yeah, that
is the definition of performative. If they had had a
trans person in their like marketing, the influencer outreach division,
like that wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
That's kind of the epitome of like the privilege that yeah,
people don't realize there is. So the fact that Annheuser Busch,
they had a little bit of backlash. All they did
was stay silent, literally allowing this woman to take all
of the threats and harassment and being like, yep, oh,
well that didn't work. That didn't well it did partially
pay out for a minute because there were supporters for
(46:10):
the second and then their silence and apology shows not
only their blindness, ignorance and harmful behavior in everything that
they just did without again talking to the right community.
Who did they talk to? They're like, this person's a
TikTok famous little let's send a beer, which we already know.
(46:30):
All the mess on that end we're not going to
talk about. But that kind of comes back to this
whole conversation of like who is this for, why are
you doing this? And what does this do? And then
when we look at who may be a woman, and
this is the whole conversation any and I've had plenty
of times women supporting women, but what are these women
actually doing and what are they doing that is good
(46:52):
for other women and other marginalized folks. So we have
to backtrack, like, no, it can't just be simply this
and this. There's a lot of women on businesses like
I think about this often because again coming back to Etsy,
because I tried to be is whatever. Well, I'm like, yeah,
but this person, oh, she's got she's got some things
on here that I do not want to support. She
has anti abortion, she has all these things, and I'm like,
I can't support that. I have to dig in to
(47:14):
see who she's selling to or someone who has no standards,
and I get to the point of like, yeah, you
have to make a business. I get it, but you're
willing to put mega stuff onto your stuff and then
sell it and then also Black Lives Matter that doesn't work.
Speaker 2 (47:27):
Yeah. There was that That reminds me like when we
were doing whatever, I was purchasing for one of our
boxes ones. There was a product that I thought was
so cute and it came in all these different designs
and I was like, ooh, so close to purchasing, and
then I kept going and scrolling and I was like,
uh uh.
Speaker 3 (47:42):
Oh when you go to the review, when you go
through the reviews and you see who she's oh, you're like, ma'am, oh,
we're in Minneapolis.
Speaker 2 (47:54):
We are not supporting somebody who has Blue Lives Matter
on there.
Speaker 3 (48:00):
That's the other part to that, like we have to
hold our own accountable as well, and I say this
as an Asian woman who all this rhetorics and very
very like white supremacist rhetoric that I'm like, I do
not support this. I do not support them just because
they're an Asian woman. We have to have that conversation
of like that fine line of just because it seems
okay because on the outside, this is a person of color,
(48:21):
she's an Asian woman. Okay, cool, cool, cool cool. Even
queer people you're like, oh they're queer. Oh but they're
they're staunchly still somehow republican. Like I don't I don't
get this, but I have to know that this is
not necessarily just supporting, like that's right, you have to
dig deeper.
Speaker 2 (48:37):
Poles come in every shade, race and you know color,
like everybody can has the potential to be a total.
Speaker 3 (48:46):
Yes, that's how I live. Everybody's probably an I'm just kidding.
Speaker 2 (48:52):
I'm just kidding. So yeah, I like to think that
I want to support, you know, first and foremost intersectional
progressive businesses just personally. But yeah, and if that's not available,
a minority owned business, a woman owned business is better
(49:13):
than again, it's better than Amazon. But yes, being mindful
of like, what's that person likely going to do and
support with their dollars is really important to me?
Speaker 1 (49:26):
Yeah, And I do think you said something earlier that
I hadn't really thought about it before. But I often
complain about this extra work we have to do, and
I complain like it's like hm hmm, I wish I
could just be like, oh, yeah, I like that thing
that's mine, But you're right, it does. I have heard
from friends who have told me like, I like that,
(49:47):
I know that you do that. It makes me feel better.
And that's not to say we've made mistakes. We've said
yes to things that later turned out to be terrible,
and we try to learn from that and be like, Okay,
not that one again, because a lot of times in
our company they'll be like, you said yes to it once,
surely yes again. No, not always, but it is like,
(50:12):
it is a lot of work, and I don't think
everyone has the time to do it, yea, or even
the emotional because we were talking about this the other day,
like women typically or marginalized people typically are more drained
from what from the patriarchy, from white supremacy and all
this stuff.
Speaker 2 (50:31):
What's happening in the world.
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Yeah, so maybe you don't have the time to vet
certain things. So I do think that is a value.
I think that's something. I'm glad that you said that.
I'm gonna you put a more positive spin on this
whole thing for me.
Speaker 2 (50:47):
And it comes from a place of privilege, right that
we I in particular, have the time to do this
research and can afford it. And that's what's really I
don't want to discount the privilege that I hold to
be really mindful as a as an agent of capitalism,
because it's not Not everybody has this privilege. Not everybody
(51:12):
can afford to shop at, you know, small mom and
pop grocery stores because they are more expensive. If Amazon
and Walmart are what you can budget for, I am
fully supportive of that. You know, that is where you
are in your life in the society to society sucks, Like,
(51:33):
don't feel bad if that's if that's where you are,
Please don't feel bad. Shame is not a tool of
social justice, right, Like, that's not going to help anybody
for me to say, like you're shopping at Walmart. Hell yeah, like.
Speaker 4 (51:47):
Some some people have to, And that's okay because I
do have a little bit more time and resources.
Speaker 2 (51:57):
I don't need to, but I am glad that it
exists for the people who need it. And that same
goes for every institution right that there are institutions that exist,
there are stores that exist for the people who need it,
and I'm glad they exist. Do I wish Do I
wish they had more ethical practices? Absolutely, But that's something
(52:22):
I can do with my resources, and my privilege is
to push back and to call, make the phone calls
and to say and demand better of these companies so
that they can continue to support underprivileged communities.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
Yes, this is true. I think about this every time
voting comes up, which, as you've probably heard, is rough
in Georgia. Is that like, I don't know how people
who have kids who work many jobs have the time
to vote but also have the time to research who
to vote for, because a lot of times it'll be
like I can't find information about any of this, so
(52:58):
I'm like, I guess this guy I don't know. So
that is a big conversation of It's frustrating because it's
like the Walmarts of the world are playing a part
and keeping us in this situation, but also they are
important because we are in the situation. It's it's frustrating,
(53:21):
but yeah, I mean it is, especially you know, we're
in city, but when I was in the small town,
it's only game in town. That was like that was
it exactly same?
Speaker 2 (53:34):
Yeah, I grew up in northern Indiana, and it's like,
you got your groceries at Walmart, you bought your you know,
incidentals on Amazon. It's just what you do. There was
a Barnes and Noble, like that's that was the bookstore.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yes, and you go hang out there and you were cool.
Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yes, yeah, you get your Starbucks. Yes, that's fine, fine,
because that's what is aig and that's what is in
a budget. And yeah, I'm never going to be here
to shame somebody for doing what they need to do
to get by.
Speaker 1 (54:07):
Yes, well, thank you so much, Renee for coming on
here to spend the light. You are a friend. Officially, Yes,
we could talk forever, but I suppose we should seriously
just to sign off for this one. But let's hang
out and just complain. I feel like I'm in a
complaining movie, which is rare for.
Speaker 3 (54:26):
Me's a hobby that I have complaining that's less.
Speaker 1 (54:33):
Yes, thank you, thank you, thank you. Where can the
good listeners find you?
Speaker 2 (54:37):
The best place to go is Feminist book Club dot com.
We're on Instagram at your Feminist book Club because Feminist
book Club is taken on Instagram, but Feminist book Club
is available on TikTok, so you can find this Feminius
book Club on TikTok And uh, yeah, everything, everything's on
our website though, that's the best, the best place to go.
Speaker 1 (54:54):
Yes, And and you have show notes which I am
very jealous of.
Speaker 2 (54:59):
They're not but there what we have, so I'm very jealous.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
Yes, just go check it out listeners. It's amazing. Also,
we will be on the show. We'll see how this goes.
Speaker 3 (55:14):
Yes.
Speaker 1 (55:16):
In the meantime, if you would like to contact us,
you can. Our email is stuff Adia mom Stuff at
iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter at
mom Stuff Podcasts, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff
I Never told you. We have a tea public store
you can buy merch on there. Also we have a
book coming out well, you can reorder it as stuff
You should read books dot com. Thanks us always to
our super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our
(55:39):
contributor Joey, thank you and thanks to you for listening
stuff I never told you. Inspection by heart Radio. For
more podcast in my heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts where you listen to
you Davish
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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