July 20, 2015 • 33 mins
When it comes to bathroom hygiene, access and safety, peeing standing up is a legitimate concern for many women and trans men. Cristen and Caroline talk female urinary devices (FUDs), from the first lady to patent one in 1918 to why the U.S. government has spent money analyzing FUDs on the market.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From house Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about something
that a surprising number of listeners have requested and and
something I have been curious about for quite a while,
(00:25):
female urinary devices. And this is not a U t
I a urinary tract infection. It actually might help prevent
U t I s. Yeah, I just like that. The
abbreviation is FUD where if you put an um out
over the U, it could be food, which I actually
think there is like a restaurant or something that bring
your foods ladies. Yeah, bring your food to the food
(00:48):
I don't know. It doesn't really work, but I thought
that it would be great to talk about. Because it
is summer, it's hot. You might be out hunting or camping,
or going to music festivals or doing all three at
the same time, going on that classic All Ladies Summer Hunt.
Maybe you were hunting at Bonnaroo. I don't know what
people do there. It's weird, but hunting something. But either
(01:09):
way or any of these ways, you probably have experienced
a little bit of awkwardness, discomfort, maybe even a U
t I if you have had to hold it or
feel like you couldn't pee or clean up after yourself
because you're in such an awkward position, Caroline. One of
the most panicked moments of my life in public that
(01:32):
I still vividly remember, which is surprising considering how much
beer I had had to drink that day, was at
a beer festival, which is why I had a lot
of beer. And there were maybe two porta John's designated
for women, and the lines were astounding, and I did
the thing where I waited too long and I got
(01:56):
in the line and I immediately had to go because
you know how it is when you drink a lot
of beer. Somehow it just kind of kind of speeds
the whole process up a little bit, steaks up on you. Yeah,
And I stood there in the panic hit of I
am about to urinate all over myself in front of
just hundreds of people, and this is how it's going
(02:18):
to be. And I had actually not been working at
how stuff works all that long and was with co workers,
and I was imagine having to go back to where
all of my co workers were with with pea pants.
So what happened, Thankfully, someone saw the panic in my
eyes when I said, anyway, I can cut in front
(02:41):
of you and mercifully let me use that porta potty.
You must have looked so terrified for someone to let
you cut in line on the porta potty line. I know,
I know, desperate times, but I tell you what, I
have tried to repay that porta potty karma anytime. So, ladies,
if you see me and buy FORTIFII, and you really
(03:03):
need to use it before me, I'll let you go
because I feel that pain. That is so it is
the worst pain. It is the worst pain. And that
is why I've really been interested in female urinary devices.
I mean also really an unfortunately clinical name for P funnels. Yeah,
P funnels. Uh, some people literally use funnels. Some people
(03:25):
go on the internets and and purchase ready made the
ladies specific type funnels. But I mean there's also the
whole issues of potty politics we talked about literally in
our potty Politics episode a couple of years ago, of
trans men needing these same devices to use the bathroom
and be able to they're called stand top devices when
they're specifically used by and for a trans men. Though. Yeah,
(03:48):
there's the whole gender neutral bathroom issue potty parody where
bathroom equality and quotes isn't the same number of bathrooms
for men and women, they things to the time and
space it takes women to go because equal usually means
more stalls for women than men. Yeah, we take up
(04:09):
more space, takes us longer to get in and get out. Yeah,
I mean half the time. It is because I'm tweeting.
But well, at least you're not talking on your phone.
Why is there always someone talking on the phone in
the bathroom. I don't know. I think that's another podcast
that is Yeah, you're right, Um, that's my own personal politics.
But and we will do that podcast in the bathroom,
my friend. The acoustics so great. Um. But part of
(04:32):
that potty politics episode that we did the way back
when we did mention the issue of men standing out
versus women sitting and how that in and of itself
takes up more space. You've got to take off your pants,
roll your pants down, or pull your skirt up or
your hoop skirt. God forbid. Um. But the thing that
makes that easier is stuff like the peamates. This little
(04:56):
it's like a little cardboard like funnel. You just like
pop up in and fold it out and stick it
up in there. I'm using technical terms. We don't really
stick it. That kind of makes it sound like a tampon.
Oh yeah, you don't. You don't like stick it up
in there. You just stick it like you hold it
against your lady, I guess yourself. Yeah, yeah, against your vulva.
There we go, and it peammate the disposable one. Yeah,
(05:18):
and they're kind of cute, I gotta say, because they
have a little designs on the side, very Hello Kitty esque,
at least the ones that I would I spot a
marketing opportunity. I mean, if like, why not I should
make our own Hello kitty will see our pants offended?
I was thinking, a hey, ladies, teammates with our faces
(05:42):
on at the back to back, does well, I got
to make a buck somehow, Girl, I agree. But I myself,
you know, in all of the discussions, I myself have
never used one. I have never used whether it's disposable
or whether it's one of the funnels. I've never used
a P product at all. I have never used a
P funnel. But I would be lying if I said
(06:03):
I never tried, just for my own amusement to see
tests out being standing up and it is challenging. The
aiming is hard, but I think that with practice I
could I could perfect it. P practice P practice, practice
makes perfect. Yeah, it's just really I don't know that
I have the passion or the drive that I was
(06:24):
really hoping you were going to keep using pe words,
the passion or the persistent there we go to to
keep doing that. But I really would enjoy at some
point learning how to do it so that if my
fiance ever walks into the bedroom and our apartment, I
could just weird amount a little bit. I like that,
that's your motivation, spice things up. Water sports. But these
(06:51):
are being used and for very practical reasons by women
who are out hunting women on job sites. This reminded
me a lot of our Women in Construction episode where
on construction sites finding a sanitary, safe place to go
to the bathroom is not so easy for women especially. Yeah,
(07:11):
we got a letter from a listener named Courtney, and
we did read her a letter previously on the podcast,
but I think it's worth repeating some of the things
she said and encouraging us to do a FUD episode. Um.
She talks about how not being able to have access
to a safe or private or clean space to go
to the bathroom is probably a bit of a health
and safety issue, especially when you're talking about it being
(07:35):
hot outside. Courtney was talking about working in open farm fields,
and so a lot of women, whether you are like
Courtney working in a farm field or you're a military
service member in Afghanistan, a lot of women will end
up dehydrating themselves on purpose to avoid having to pet
too often. And so Courtney says, maybe we should learn
(07:56):
to love and embrace the FUD. I agree. I mean,
she says that's were occasionally mentioned in jokes as a
kind of weird, ridiculous thing that anyone should be embarrassed
to even consider using. But if they can solve something
that is more than a minor inconvenience and often a
very real problem for women, maybe we should learn to
love it. And this also reminds me of squeamishness surrounding
(08:20):
menstrual cups. There's the whole fear factor of coming into
contact with your own labia, and I understand too, it's
also menstrual blood factor with that, but women people with
labia and Volvo's it's okay, we can come into contact
with our own genitalia. Yeah, it's just part of your body. Yeah,
(08:44):
it's like an armpit. I mean, it's not like an armpit,
but it's as if you know, it's anyway. So anyway,
moving beyond armpits, you know, we think of these female
urination devices, it's a very clinical term. Like Kristen said,
we think of them as being such modern and inventions.
We think of the cardboard peammate, we think of the
Lady j or the freshet. But people have been sort
(09:08):
of tinkering with this idea for a lot longer than that,
especially FUD pioneer Edith Lacey. You cannot, like, I can't
express to you how excited I was that one of
the earliest, if not the earliest FUD creator and patent holder,
(09:28):
was a woman. Yeah. She was a British woman who
filed a U S patent application for a quote sanitary
protector in August nineteen eighteen, and her pattern was improved
in February, and you can read it over on Google Patents,
and she in the patent she describes, quote my invention
(09:51):
relates to a sanitary protector suitable for use by female
persons and urinating. And the principal object of my invention
is to provide a cheap device of this class which
is used but once being especially suitable as a sanitary
device in toilet rooms. And she goes on to say
how it should be made of disposable material which you
(10:11):
can then burn after the us. I don't know, Kristen.
I I laughed out loud the other day next to you,
and that's what I was laughing at. I like, I
think I did, like a laugh, like a solitary laugh,
clap and combo, and it was because I was so
tickled at the idea of like burn it burn itt um.
(10:33):
But yeah, so I love that her goal was not
just to give women like a clean, easy way to
pee without having to come in contact with a seat,
but that she wanted it to be cheap and easily accessible.
She foresaw these devices being sold in public toilet rooms
and elsewhere. From the well known coin controlled apparatus had
(10:53):
a nominal cought. So this makes me think of having
them in the tampon dispenser. Yeah, ye, old tampon dispenser.
And how might you use such a thing, Caroline, Well,
she writes that you would hold it in engagement with
the body. I love that also, it sounds so dainty,
with the entire edge engaging said body around the mouth
(11:13):
of the well, covering the urethra. And then you know,
you pee into it while you're in a quote unquote
suitable place. I like how she describes it, those the
urine being led off, like it's like someone just taste
taste his little yellow hand and takes it away. It's
the end of like every Western and it's just riding
off into the sunset through your peammate. It's true. And
(11:38):
the benefit, she writes, is it is accordingly unnecessary for
the user to sit upon the closet seat, and the
urine is let off without danger of soiling the clothes
of the user or the closet. And then, like christ
And said, you burn it, and then you must burn up.
You have to do a ritual to draw a star
(11:58):
on the floor and burn your cardboard thing. You pull
some some sage out of your purse. Brought that in there.
But it was also made like she hammered on the
idea of it being stackable. So I imagine, you know,
when you go up to the water machine at work
and you pull the cup out. That's that's what she
was envisioning, because I have a picture here. Sorry, listeners,
you're on the on your podcast listening devices. And yeah,
(12:21):
when you look at the rendering from above, it's an oval,
so you can just stick it right up against your
labia over the urethra and and have your urine let away.
I like how passive that is, as if you have
nothing to do with it. Well, and keep in mind
how especially practical something like this would have been at
the time too, because if listeners have heard our History
(12:43):
of Panties podcast, then you would know that this At
this time, most women were still wearing bifurcated undergarments that
are very loose. Well. And then in nineteen fifty four
another woman came along, Madonna Willis, who along with Leo
Willis Russell, patented a quote unquote urinating device. Yeah, I
(13:06):
love it. In the patent application, it's described as the
urinator which is like the terminator, which is why I
was tickled the urinator um. And it was designed to
prevent infections among women using public toilets, which which is
a total noble goal. You want people to be clean
and comfortable and safe. When they're using the restroom. UM.
(13:28):
But as I was reading their patent application, UM, it
became clear that the whole idea of preventing infections had
a lot to do with this idea that the public
toilet seat was a site of easily communicable disease. And
not only that that the inventors were also very concerned
(13:50):
about femininity. They write that, you know, they want to
keep the bear, the woman's bear skin from coming in
contact with the seat because they say this is not
only offensive to a woman's sense of cleanliness and daintiness,
but is a proven source of infection by disease germs,
not disease germs, not disease germs. I would like to
(14:11):
clarify for listeners who are thinking, yeah, disease germs toilet seats,
no thanks. Research has fully demonstrated that actually sitting on
public toilet seats is not as dangerous as you might
think because are handed indies. Skin is really good at
(14:32):
blocking microbes. It's more an issue if you sit down
on that and then you don't wash your hands. It's
more what gets on your hands that's an issue. But
that doesn't take away from your fear of sitting in
someone else's year in and how ichy that feels. That
is true, it's the worst feeling. The splashback is definitely
an issue, and also just having to come into contact
(14:53):
with I mean, the site, the smell a disgusting public
restroom is unpleasant. I fully understand that, and I fully
agree that these are these these are disgusting things. Um.
And we are going to talk more about the modern
day uh use of female urination devices and you know,
(15:14):
whether you're camping or festivaling or going to Afghanistan when
we come right back from a quick break. So, Caroline,
one of the most incredible things about female urination devices
today is how many products are on the market. It
(15:39):
is its own industry because you have people who just
want to avoid having to go into a porter party
environment to begin with, but then more usefully, you have
people who just have no toilet anywhere to use exactly.
And that's why some ladies over at gear Finder, which
(15:59):
I sure you is a site for hikers, not people
looking for random hookups or I don't know, maybe they
ever lap um they tested out a bunch of what
reviewer Molly Loomis termed sheenesses uh and they broke down
these reviews, and I thought they were fascinating. They tread
out everything from literally just a basic plastic automotive funnel,
(16:20):
which they described as sturdy but a little bulky to pack,
all the way to silicone and rubber things like the
Go Girl, which they found works best if you take
your pants down to position it, therefore defeating the purpose.
And there's a ton of stuff in between. You've got
the Lady j which is marketed towards service women and pilots.
It's made of malleable plastic um. You've got the Shewy,
(16:45):
which is small, which is great for backpackers, but it
also means it takes a little more practice in the
shower before you go on your backpacking trip. And then
they tried out the Whiz Freedom, which they said was
lightweight and malleable, which is great, but the fact that
it is so malleable can kind of contribute to accidents.
And then the final thing that they tried out was
(17:05):
the travel Mate, which is super small and also a
little tricky. And it's interesting to see how all of
these are a little bit different, I mean really depending
on what they're made of. How Like you said, malleable,
the kind of plastic it's made from might be, or
if it's just made straight from treated cardboard or paper, um,
(17:28):
and all of the different attachments you can get, like
is the funnel detachable? Does it fold up? Apparently the
Go girl folds into a tiny almost capsule sized carrying capsule.
It's not really carrying case. So I mean the bonus
of that, though, is it seems like you can find
(17:49):
a fud to fit your your vulva, because as we know,
you know, everybody's vulva shaped a little bit differently, and
probably different kinds of fuds would work better for different
kinds of bodies exactly. And one of the ones that
the women at Gearfinder liked the best was the Freshet,
who has the tagline when nature calls, the answer is
(18:09):
it's Freshet. Yeah, that's the answer. Uh. They found that
to be the most full proof and efficient, which is
interesting because the military also recommends the Freshet as sort
of the the fud of choice, if you will. Yeah,
there was a paper that we found in the journal
Urologic Nursing got my subscription, I don't know about you,
(18:31):
that came out in two thousand and thirteen looking at
this issue of service women having to take off so
much gear and their uniforms and considering the context of
where they might be at the time to go to
the bathroom, and so there were a lot of concerns
about female soldiers who might be deployed and like you
(18:53):
mentioned earlier, holding it or not drinking enough water, you know,
to an unhealthy extent is to not have to go
through all of this. Yeah, And they wrote that the
current I like how technical this is, current measures utilized
for urination difficulties predisposed women to dehydration, urinary symptoms, and
or urinary tract infections, basically breaking down the idea that
(19:17):
the way that women have to pee in the field
can prove to be humiliating, time consuming, and therefore dangerous
because if you have to be popping a squat out
in the open, you've got to pull down your pants
and your underwear, sometimes in plain sight of others, whether
those are other service members or whether it's the freaking enemy.
(19:38):
And due to that, in the early nineties we learn
from this study, US Congress actually funded two studies looking
into the best fund options for military women, and they
compared the Lady j and the Fresh at among one
women participating in a two week field exercise and two
lady aviators, and both groups found both fuds acceptable and convenient.
(20:03):
Freshet went out when it came time for an official recommendation,
so as a result, military women's flight uniforms were redesigned
to have a one and a half to two inch
extended zipper to accommodate the fuds, which thanks a lot military.
I do appreciate that that's a that's a that's a
polite step to take. But despite all of this research
(20:27):
and the fact that many non military women are armed
with fuds, they're still not used by a lot of soldiers. Yeah,
this was really disheartening. I got so excited about the
idea that some of the uniforms had been designed or
redesigned with a fud in mind, or just with women's
urination habits in mind. But the papers authors said that, hey,
(20:50):
we've got to do something because too many people still
don't know that this is available, that this is a
thing that women can have. And so in interviewing military nurses,
they found either ignorance of the devices all together or
a preference to just pop a squat and let it
all hang out in the interest of time, which can
lead to sand getting up, their irritation, infection, or like
(21:15):
we said, they just allow themselves to get dehydrated. And
so you've got sort of layers of problems on problems
on problems because some of the military, the lady military
service members they talked to, we're not super likely to
go seek gynecological care, whether it's because of a lack
of trust or time or transportation, or just feeling more
(21:36):
comfortable with a female provider. And there just wasn't one. Well,
And you've got to wonder too, what role socialization plays
in all of this, in normalizing the use of fuds,
of normalizing women standing up to use the bathroom if
they need to, because obviously in the United States especially,
(21:58):
there are some countries where men to to sit down
to urinate. It's such a masculine behavior to stand up
and p you know, um. And this is where conversations
about trans men and those stand top products comes in,
because this is also part of transitioning of being able
(22:18):
to go to your gender appropriate bathroom that you want
to use and not be nervous that you will get
side eyed for how you are sitting. Yeah, it's so
many of the websites we looked at talking about stand
top products talk about standing two p as an important
socialized behavior, whether you're assist gender man or a trans man.
(22:41):
And so then when you take into account that maybe
the men's room doesn't have a stall, or maybe it
doesn't have a stalled door, there's a lot of anxiety
that that can breed among people. And so then we
get these stant to pee urination devices that are made
specifically for transmant things like the urinal mr pee, this
STP fits man go pack, and p prostesis. I mean
(23:05):
there's a ton of them. Some of them actually are
made to look like penises. They're flesh tone varieties of
flesh tones, I should say. Some of them are like
bright pink or purple or green. Um, but it's the
same kind of thing. It's so nice to see that
just like, uh, if you're just you know, a woman
wanting to go to music festival and not use a
porta potty, you have a whole selection of different like
(23:27):
pmate style products. Well, if you're a trans man who
wants to be able to stand to pee in a
public restroom, you also have a full range of products
to use. Plenty of people have said this is an
issue and I don't want to feel anxious or awkward
or scared about walking into a bathroom. Well, and it
can be quite literally a lifesaving device considering how bathrooms
(23:49):
and especially men's bathrooms, let's be honest, have been sites
of violence for trans people. So this is a very
important thing. It's not just so laughable like oh phenis
ha ha, No, this is something that's very important for
people to have access to. And there are also suggestions
(24:10):
that standing up to P could be good for us,
although I've also seen studies on men that sitting down
to P if you have a penis is good for you. Yeah,
what's that? Do we need to switch? Should women be
standing and then be sitting? What's going on? Well? The
International euro Gynecology Journal, Kristen, you've got that subscription, Yeah,
(24:31):
that's mine. We trade she and I trade um. In
two thousand and eight, they had a study looking at
women who used the pmate standing and the PMATE sitting,
so it was p made across the board and found
that the health the woman's health was not affected either way.
They basically had a satisfactory P whether sitting down or
(24:53):
standing up, it's sort of a matter of like, here
you go. You have an ability to have a personal
preference now, And I think that personal preferences is a
is a big part of why it's great that these
fuds exist. Although let's be honest, you can make your
own fud if you have you can go to auto
zone or if you have some treated cardboard, like from
(25:16):
a milk card and you can roll that puppy up
and hey, boom funnel and that will work. Um. But
I gotta say when people try to tie it to
feminism and make it a joke of like, well we've
achieved feminism because women are standing up to pe. You
bore me, because you clearly don't understand what feminism is about.
(25:37):
I mean, yeah, women should be able to use the
bathroom in a healthy, safe kind of way, trans men
should be able to use the bathroom and healthy, safe
kind of way. Everybody should be able to But I
don't think that standing to p is necessarily a feminist issue,
because feminism is not about emulating male behavior right or
(25:57):
making men emulate female behave exactly. So it's just it's
just a stale joke to me by this time. Yeah,
but I am glad that there are options out there
so that when I go into a disgusting porta potty,
I don't have to touch anything. Because I'm very much
like you. Stop complaining about public restrooms. It's fine to
sit down. Just get some toilet paper and wipe the
(26:19):
seat off or put a seat cover down. You'll be fine.
But I have been in plenty of disgusting porta potties
where I would be glad to have one. And it's
also so good to hear from listeners who have the
added perspective of being on job sites or out in
the field working, um who need these things for for
just basic health. We'll tell you what, Caroline, the next
(26:41):
music festival and more importantly, beer festival I go to.
I'm taking a fund. Yeah, are you thinking the disposable type,
one of the rubber ones? Are you just gonna go
to the automotive store and pick yourself up a funnel? See?
That's the struggle, because my thrifty side says, make your
own roll up some news paper. But my, you know,
(27:02):
my my luxurious side says, maybe a go girl, maybe
something with some soft silicone. That's wonderful, And you have
so many color options from there too, Yeah, all too pink,
green or green. And you know, my feminine side says pink,
but my more rustic side says green. So it really
is a lot of choices. And that's a great thing
(27:24):
about fuds and feminism is that, you know, you ladies
really can choose their choice. Yeah, take a stand. Ha
ha ha. I like that. I think that we now
need to make Sminty Fudds because you just came up
with our tagline. Yeah. Absolutely, We've already discussed having hey
ladies on the side with our back to back posts.
We've got our design, we've got our tagline. All we
(27:46):
need now is a manufacturer. So listeners call one eight
hundred Sminty Fudds feminist fuds, p like a feminist. That's
too many numbers. Yeah, that's a very long number. Um,
but maybe maybe we can pay extra or something like that. Well,
now I want to hear from folks out there, because
(28:06):
clearly there are some fun users in our audience, and
does anyone have any personal reviews to share with us,
because I'm all, I'm on board for these, but I
want the personally, I want the stories of of when
you were learning to use it because I understand that
a lot of these because they can be finicky. Uh,
it takes a lot of practice for some of them,
(28:27):
and so I want to hear I want to hear
your your p practice, horror stories, drivel stories, stories, Yes,
mom stuff at how stupworks dot com is where you
can send those stories, or you can tweet us if
they're really short, to add mom stuff podcasts or messages
on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to
share with you when we come right back from a
quick break. Well, Caroline, I have an email here from
(28:57):
Priscilla about our man Cave podcast subject line man cave
led to break up? What us or no? So Priscilla rights,
my ex boyfriend's man cave led to our breakup, So
we didn't break them up. It wasn't us. My ex
(29:18):
boyfriend and I used to live in a small apartment.
As soon as we moved into a house, he declared
one of the rooms exclusively for him, explaining that I
had the rest of the house. I didn't think much
of it at the time, but then he started to
use his man cave as an escape when he was
not in a good mood. When he wanted to decompress
after a bad day at work, when he wanted to
(29:38):
play online games with his friends, or when he wanted
to watch shows I wasn't interested in. In the end,
it got to the point where he stopped communicating with me,
first about important things and later even about small things.
And one day out of the blue, he broke up
with me after I returned from a trip. It was unexpected.
In hindsight, I can see how I was living together
(29:59):
but yet separate in the same house and not talking
a k A parallel play could lead him to believe
what's the point. I don't know if he has ever
realized what a big part his man cave played in
our breakup. So, Priscilla, I'm so sorry to hear that
that happened, And listeners cautionary tale about man caves, because
(30:20):
even if yes, you need a room of your own,
communication is still vital, even more vital. Perhaps I have
a letter here from Wren, also about our man caves episode,
and he writes, I was impressed at the amount of
information you were able to provide. As a man who's
been living with my wife for the past six years,
I felt inspired to share some of my views. The
instinct to have an isolated physical space is a trait
(30:43):
common to personality types of either gender who draw their
energy from psychologically defined flow state activities. Maintaining a flow
state requires keeping focused attention on the task at hand
without distraction or interruption. Flow state activities range from socially
gendered ones like working on a car in the garage
or eating baby clothes, to more gender neutral activities like gardening, reading,
(31:03):
and playing music. For a variety of cultural reasons, men
habitually spend more of their time in flow state than women. However,
this is changing is the historical gender roles progress toward equality.
My feeling is that the majority of caves men create
are not motivated by a need for masculine expression, but
rather by the desire to create a functionally isolated and
or focused work or leisure space. Women who have the
(31:26):
same desire are equally likely to carve out spaces of
their own. Often, there is a perception of gender association
based on the function of the space. Video game stations
are perceived as being masculine, whereas craft rooms are proceved
perceived as being feminine. But to say that the function
of the space defines its gender affiliation is to imply
that women cannot be gamers and men cannot be crafty.
(31:48):
Anyone is allowed into a quote unquote cave so long
as they commit themselves to performing the activity the space
was designed for. I personally dislike the term man cave
because it reinforces notions for what kinds of activities are
appropriate for each gender and implies that one of the
primary motivators from men creating personal space is to assert
their masculinity. Yes, there are hyper masculine man caves with
(32:11):
cagurators and swimsuit calendars. However, my impression is that these
kind of caves are the minority. Thanks for reading my
thoughts on the topic. I love your podcast and find
each and every episode to be very enlightening. And RN,
we loved your letter and greatly appreciate it, and we
are definitely very pro having a room of one zone indeed,
so thanks, and we're also pro hearing from you, dear listeners.
(32:34):
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address. You can also messages on Facebook or tweet
us at mom stuff Podcasts and for links to all
of our social media as well as all of our bologs. Videos,
and podcasts, including this one. So you can see those
amazing patents for feminine urinary devices. Head on over the
(32:57):
Stuff Mom Never told You dot com for more on
this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff
Works dot com
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You. From house Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen
and I'm Caroline, and today we are talking about something
that a surprising number of listeners have requested and and
something I have been curious about for quite a while,
(00:25):
female urinary devices. And this is not a U t
I a urinary tract infection. It actually might help prevent
U t I s. Yeah, I just like that. The
abbreviation is FUD where if you put an um out
over the U, it could be food, which I actually
think there is like a restaurant or something that bring
your foods ladies. Yeah, bring your food to the food
(00:48):
I don't know. It doesn't really work, but I thought
that it would be great to talk about. Because it
is summer, it's hot. You might be out hunting or camping,
or going to music festivals or doing all three at
the same time, going on that classic All Ladies Summer Hunt.
Maybe you were hunting at Bonnaroo. I don't know what
people do there. It's weird, but hunting something. But either
(01:09):
way or any of these ways, you probably have experienced
a little bit of awkwardness, discomfort, maybe even a U
t I if you have had to hold it or
feel like you couldn't pee or clean up after yourself
because you're in such an awkward position, Caroline. One of
the most panicked moments of my life in public that
(01:32):
I still vividly remember, which is surprising considering how much
beer I had had to drink that day, was at
a beer festival, which is why I had a lot
of beer. And there were maybe two porta John's designated
for women, and the lines were astounding, and I did
the thing where I waited too long and I got
(01:56):
in the line and I immediately had to go because
you know how it is when you drink a lot
of beer. Somehow it just kind of kind of speeds
the whole process up a little bit, steaks up on you. Yeah,
And I stood there in the panic hit of I
am about to urinate all over myself in front of
just hundreds of people, and this is how it's going
(02:18):
to be. And I had actually not been working at
how stuff works all that long and was with co workers,
and I was imagine having to go back to where
all of my co workers were with with pea pants.
So what happened, Thankfully, someone saw the panic in my
eyes when I said, anyway, I can cut in front
(02:41):
of you and mercifully let me use that porta potty.
You must have looked so terrified for someone to let
you cut in line on the porta potty line. I know,
I know, desperate times, but I tell you what, I
have tried to repay that porta potty karma anytime. So, ladies,
if you see me and buy FORTIFII, and you really
(03:03):
need to use it before me, I'll let you go
because I feel that pain. That is so it is
the worst pain. It is the worst pain. And that
is why I've really been interested in female urinary devices.
I mean also really an unfortunately clinical name for P funnels. Yeah,
P funnels. Uh, some people literally use funnels. Some people
(03:25):
go on the internets and and purchase ready made the
ladies specific type funnels. But I mean there's also the
whole issues of potty politics we talked about literally in
our potty Politics episode a couple of years ago, of
trans men needing these same devices to use the bathroom
and be able to they're called stand top devices when
they're specifically used by and for a trans men. Though. Yeah,
(03:48):
there's the whole gender neutral bathroom issue potty parody where
bathroom equality and quotes isn't the same number of bathrooms
for men and women, they things to the time and
space it takes women to go because equal usually means
more stalls for women than men. Yeah, we take up
(04:09):
more space, takes us longer to get in and get out. Yeah,
I mean half the time. It is because I'm tweeting.
But well, at least you're not talking on your phone.
Why is there always someone talking on the phone in
the bathroom. I don't know. I think that's another podcast
that is Yeah, you're right, Um, that's my own personal politics.
But and we will do that podcast in the bathroom,
my friend. The acoustics so great. Um. But part of
(04:32):
that potty politics episode that we did the way back
when we did mention the issue of men standing out
versus women sitting and how that in and of itself
takes up more space. You've got to take off your pants,
roll your pants down, or pull your skirt up or
your hoop skirt. God forbid. Um. But the thing that
makes that easier is stuff like the peamates. This little
(04:56):
it's like a little cardboard like funnel. You just like
pop up in and fold it out and stick it
up in there. I'm using technical terms. We don't really
stick it. That kind of makes it sound like a tampon.
Oh yeah, you don't. You don't like stick it up
in there. You just stick it like you hold it
against your lady, I guess yourself. Yeah, yeah, against your vulva.
There we go, and it peammate the disposable one. Yeah,
(05:18):
and they're kind of cute, I gotta say, because they
have a little designs on the side, very Hello Kitty esque,
at least the ones that I would I spot a
marketing opportunity. I mean, if like, why not I should
make our own Hello kitty will see our pants offended?
I was thinking, a hey, ladies, teammates with our faces
(05:42):
on at the back to back, does well, I got
to make a buck somehow, Girl, I agree. But I myself,
you know, in all of the discussions, I myself have
never used one. I have never used whether it's disposable
or whether it's one of the funnels. I've never used
a P product at all. I have never used a
P funnel. But I would be lying if I said
(06:03):
I never tried, just for my own amusement to see
tests out being standing up and it is challenging. The
aiming is hard, but I think that with practice I
could I could perfect it. P practice P practice, practice
makes perfect. Yeah, it's just really I don't know that
I have the passion or the drive that I was
(06:24):
really hoping you were going to keep using pe words,
the passion or the persistent there we go to to
keep doing that. But I really would enjoy at some
point learning how to do it so that if my
fiance ever walks into the bedroom and our apartment, I
could just weird amount a little bit. I like that,
that's your motivation, spice things up. Water sports. But these
(06:51):
are being used and for very practical reasons by women
who are out hunting women on job sites. This reminded
me a lot of our Women in Construction episode where
on construction sites finding a sanitary, safe place to go
to the bathroom is not so easy for women especially. Yeah,
(07:11):
we got a letter from a listener named Courtney, and
we did read her a letter previously on the podcast,
but I think it's worth repeating some of the things
she said and encouraging us to do a FUD episode. Um.
She talks about how not being able to have access
to a safe or private or clean space to go
to the bathroom is probably a bit of a health
and safety issue, especially when you're talking about it being
(07:35):
hot outside. Courtney was talking about working in open farm fields,
and so a lot of women, whether you are like
Courtney working in a farm field or you're a military
service member in Afghanistan, a lot of women will end
up dehydrating themselves on purpose to avoid having to pet
too often. And so Courtney says, maybe we should learn
(07:56):
to love and embrace the FUD. I agree. I mean,
she says that's were occasionally mentioned in jokes as a
kind of weird, ridiculous thing that anyone should be embarrassed
to even consider using. But if they can solve something
that is more than a minor inconvenience and often a
very real problem for women, maybe we should learn to
love it. And this also reminds me of squeamishness surrounding
(08:20):
menstrual cups. There's the whole fear factor of coming into
contact with your own labia, and I understand too, it's
also menstrual blood factor with that, but women people with
labia and Volvo's it's okay, we can come into contact
with our own genitalia. Yeah, it's just part of your body. Yeah,
(08:44):
it's like an armpit. I mean, it's not like an armpit,
but it's as if you know, it's anyway. So anyway,
moving beyond armpits, you know, we think of these female
urination devices, it's a very clinical term. Like Kristen said,
we think of them as being such modern and inventions.
We think of the cardboard peammate, we think of the
Lady j or the freshet. But people have been sort
(09:08):
of tinkering with this idea for a lot longer than that,
especially FUD pioneer Edith Lacey. You cannot, like, I can't
express to you how excited I was that one of
the earliest, if not the earliest FUD creator and patent holder,
(09:28):
was a woman. Yeah. She was a British woman who
filed a U S patent application for a quote sanitary
protector in August nineteen eighteen, and her pattern was improved
in February, and you can read it over on Google Patents,
and she in the patent she describes, quote my invention
(09:51):
relates to a sanitary protector suitable for use by female
persons and urinating. And the principal object of my invention
is to provide a cheap device of this class which
is used but once being especially suitable as a sanitary
device in toilet rooms. And she goes on to say
how it should be made of disposable material which you
(10:11):
can then burn after the us. I don't know, Kristen.
I I laughed out loud the other day next to you,
and that's what I was laughing at. I like, I
think I did, like a laugh, like a solitary laugh,
clap and combo, and it was because I was so
tickled at the idea of like burn it burn itt um.
(10:33):
But yeah, so I love that her goal was not
just to give women like a clean, easy way to
pee without having to come in contact with a seat,
but that she wanted it to be cheap and easily accessible.
She foresaw these devices being sold in public toilet rooms
and elsewhere. From the well known coin controlled apparatus had
(10:53):
a nominal cought. So this makes me think of having
them in the tampon dispenser. Yeah, ye, old tampon dispenser.
And how might you use such a thing, Caroline, Well,
she writes that you would hold it in engagement with
the body. I love that also, it sounds so dainty,
with the entire edge engaging said body around the mouth
(11:13):
of the well, covering the urethra. And then you know,
you pee into it while you're in a quote unquote
suitable place. I like how she describes it, those the
urine being led off, like it's like someone just taste
taste his little yellow hand and takes it away. It's
the end of like every Western and it's just riding
off into the sunset through your peammate. It's true. And
(11:38):
the benefit, she writes, is it is accordingly unnecessary for
the user to sit upon the closet seat, and the
urine is let off without danger of soiling the clothes
of the user or the closet. And then, like christ
And said, you burn it, and then you must burn up.
You have to do a ritual to draw a star
(11:58):
on the floor and burn your cardboard thing. You pull
some some sage out of your purse. Brought that in there.
But it was also made like she hammered on the
idea of it being stackable. So I imagine, you know,
when you go up to the water machine at work
and you pull the cup out. That's that's what she
was envisioning, because I have a picture here. Sorry, listeners,
you're on the on your podcast listening devices. And yeah,
(12:21):
when you look at the rendering from above, it's an oval,
so you can just stick it right up against your
labia over the urethra and and have your urine let away.
I like how passive that is, as if you have
nothing to do with it. Well, and keep in mind
how especially practical something like this would have been at
the time too, because if listeners have heard our History
(12:43):
of Panties podcast, then you would know that this At
this time, most women were still wearing bifurcated undergarments that
are very loose. Well. And then in nineteen fifty four
another woman came along, Madonna Willis, who along with Leo
Willis Russell, patented a quote unquote urinating device. Yeah, I
(13:06):
love it. In the patent application, it's described as the
urinator which is like the terminator, which is why I
was tickled the urinator um. And it was designed to
prevent infections among women using public toilets, which which is
a total noble goal. You want people to be clean
and comfortable and safe. When they're using the restroom. UM.
(13:28):
But as I was reading their patent application, UM, it
became clear that the whole idea of preventing infections had
a lot to do with this idea that the public
toilet seat was a site of easily communicable disease. And
not only that that the inventors were also very concerned
(13:50):
about femininity. They write that, you know, they want to
keep the bear, the woman's bear skin from coming in
contact with the seat because they say this is not
only offensive to a woman's sense of cleanliness and daintiness,
but is a proven source of infection by disease germs,
not disease germs, not disease germs. I would like to
(14:11):
clarify for listeners who are thinking, yeah, disease germs toilet seats,
no thanks. Research has fully demonstrated that actually sitting on
public toilet seats is not as dangerous as you might
think because are handed indies. Skin is really good at
(14:32):
blocking microbes. It's more an issue if you sit down
on that and then you don't wash your hands. It's
more what gets on your hands that's an issue. But
that doesn't take away from your fear of sitting in
someone else's year in and how ichy that feels. That
is true, it's the worst feeling. The splashback is definitely
an issue, and also just having to come into contact
(14:53):
with I mean, the site, the smell a disgusting public
restroom is unpleasant. I fully understand that, and I fully
agree that these are these these are disgusting things. Um.
And we are going to talk more about the modern
day uh use of female urination devices and you know,
(15:14):
whether you're camping or festivaling or going to Afghanistan when
we come right back from a quick break. So, Caroline,
one of the most incredible things about female urination devices
today is how many products are on the market. It
(15:39):
is its own industry because you have people who just
want to avoid having to go into a porter party
environment to begin with, but then more usefully, you have
people who just have no toilet anywhere to use exactly.
And that's why some ladies over at gear Finder, which
(15:59):
I sure you is a site for hikers, not people
looking for random hookups or I don't know, maybe they
ever lap um they tested out a bunch of what
reviewer Molly Loomis termed sheenesses uh and they broke down
these reviews, and I thought they were fascinating. They tread
out everything from literally just a basic plastic automotive funnel,
(16:20):
which they described as sturdy but a little bulky to pack,
all the way to silicone and rubber things like the
Go Girl, which they found works best if you take
your pants down to position it, therefore defeating the purpose.
And there's a ton of stuff in between. You've got
the Lady j which is marketed towards service women and pilots.
It's made of malleable plastic um. You've got the Shewy,
(16:45):
which is small, which is great for backpackers, but it
also means it takes a little more practice in the
shower before you go on your backpacking trip. And then
they tried out the Whiz Freedom, which they said was
lightweight and malleable, which is great, but the fact that
it is so malleable can kind of contribute to accidents.
And then the final thing that they tried out was
(17:05):
the travel Mate, which is super small and also a
little tricky. And it's interesting to see how all of
these are a little bit different, I mean really depending
on what they're made of. How Like you said, malleable,
the kind of plastic it's made from might be, or
if it's just made straight from treated cardboard or paper, um,
(17:28):
and all of the different attachments you can get, like
is the funnel detachable? Does it fold up? Apparently the
Go girl folds into a tiny almost capsule sized carrying capsule.
It's not really carrying case. So I mean the bonus
of that, though, is it seems like you can find
(17:49):
a fud to fit your your vulva, because as we know,
you know, everybody's vulva shaped a little bit differently, and
probably different kinds of fuds would work better for different
kinds of bodies exactly. And one of the ones that
the women at Gearfinder liked the best was the Freshet,
who has the tagline when nature calls, the answer is
(18:09):
it's Freshet. Yeah, that's the answer. Uh. They found that
to be the most full proof and efficient, which is
interesting because the military also recommends the Freshet as sort
of the the fud of choice, if you will. Yeah,
there was a paper that we found in the journal
Urologic Nursing got my subscription, I don't know about you,
(18:31):
that came out in two thousand and thirteen looking at
this issue of service women having to take off so
much gear and their uniforms and considering the context of
where they might be at the time to go to
the bathroom, and so there were a lot of concerns
about female soldiers who might be deployed and like you
(18:53):
mentioned earlier, holding it or not drinking enough water, you know,
to an unhealthy extent is to not have to go
through all of this. Yeah, And they wrote that the
current I like how technical this is, current measures utilized
for urination difficulties predisposed women to dehydration, urinary symptoms, and
or urinary tract infections, basically breaking down the idea that
(19:17):
the way that women have to pee in the field
can prove to be humiliating, time consuming, and therefore dangerous
because if you have to be popping a squat out
in the open, you've got to pull down your pants
and your underwear, sometimes in plain sight of others, whether
those are other service members or whether it's the freaking enemy.
(19:38):
And due to that, in the early nineties we learn
from this study, US Congress actually funded two studies looking
into the best fund options for military women, and they
compared the Lady j and the Fresh at among one
women participating in a two week field exercise and two
lady aviators, and both groups found both fuds acceptable and convenient.
(20:03):
Freshet went out when it came time for an official recommendation,
so as a result, military women's flight uniforms were redesigned
to have a one and a half to two inch
extended zipper to accommodate the fuds, which thanks a lot military.
I do appreciate that that's a that's a that's a
polite step to take. But despite all of this research
(20:27):
and the fact that many non military women are armed
with fuds, they're still not used by a lot of soldiers. Yeah,
this was really disheartening. I got so excited about the
idea that some of the uniforms had been designed or
redesigned with a fud in mind, or just with women's
urination habits in mind. But the papers authors said that, hey,
(20:50):
we've got to do something because too many people still
don't know that this is available, that this is a
thing that women can have. And so in interviewing military nurses,
they found either ignorance of the devices all together or
a preference to just pop a squat and let it
all hang out in the interest of time, which can
lead to sand getting up, their irritation, infection, or like
(21:15):
we said, they just allow themselves to get dehydrated. And
so you've got sort of layers of problems on problems
on problems because some of the military, the lady military
service members they talked to, we're not super likely to
go seek gynecological care, whether it's because of a lack
of trust or time or transportation, or just feeling more
(21:36):
comfortable with a female provider. And there just wasn't one. Well,
And you've got to wonder too, what role socialization plays
in all of this, in normalizing the use of fuds,
of normalizing women standing up to use the bathroom if
they need to, because obviously in the United States especially,
(21:58):
there are some countries where men to to sit down
to urinate. It's such a masculine behavior to stand up
and p you know, um. And this is where conversations
about trans men and those stand top products comes in,
because this is also part of transitioning of being able
(22:18):
to go to your gender appropriate bathroom that you want
to use and not be nervous that you will get
side eyed for how you are sitting. Yeah, it's so
many of the websites we looked at talking about stand
top products talk about standing two p as an important
socialized behavior, whether you're assist gender man or a trans man.
(22:41):
And so then when you take into account that maybe
the men's room doesn't have a stall, or maybe it
doesn't have a stalled door, there's a lot of anxiety
that that can breed among people. And so then we
get these stant to pee urination devices that are made
specifically for transmant things like the urinal mr pee, this
STP fits man go pack, and p prostesis. I mean
(23:05):
there's a ton of them. Some of them actually are
made to look like penises. They're flesh tone varieties of
flesh tones, I should say. Some of them are like
bright pink or purple or green. Um, but it's the
same kind of thing. It's so nice to see that
just like, uh, if you're just you know, a woman
wanting to go to music festival and not use a
porta potty, you have a whole selection of different like
(23:27):
pmate style products. Well, if you're a trans man who
wants to be able to stand to pee in a
public restroom, you also have a full range of products
to use. Plenty of people have said this is an
issue and I don't want to feel anxious or awkward
or scared about walking into a bathroom. Well, and it
can be quite literally a lifesaving device considering how bathrooms
(23:49):
and especially men's bathrooms, let's be honest, have been sites
of violence for trans people. So this is a very
important thing. It's not just so laughable like oh phenis
ha ha, No, this is something that's very important for
people to have access to. And there are also suggestions
(24:10):
that standing up to P could be good for us,
although I've also seen studies on men that sitting down
to P if you have a penis is good for you. Yeah,
what's that? Do we need to switch? Should women be
standing and then be sitting? What's going on? Well? The
International euro Gynecology Journal, Kristen, you've got that subscription, Yeah,
(24:31):
that's mine. We trade she and I trade um. In
two thousand and eight, they had a study looking at
women who used the pmate standing and the PMATE sitting,
so it was p made across the board and found
that the health the woman's health was not affected either way.
They basically had a satisfactory P whether sitting down or
(24:53):
standing up, it's sort of a matter of like, here
you go. You have an ability to have a personal
preference now, And I think that personal preferences is a
is a big part of why it's great that these
fuds exist. Although let's be honest, you can make your
own fud if you have you can go to auto
zone or if you have some treated cardboard, like from
(25:16):
a milk card and you can roll that puppy up
and hey, boom funnel and that will work. Um. But
I gotta say when people try to tie it to
feminism and make it a joke of like, well we've
achieved feminism because women are standing up to pe. You
bore me, because you clearly don't understand what feminism is about.
(25:37):
I mean, yeah, women should be able to use the
bathroom in a healthy, safe kind of way, trans men
should be able to use the bathroom and healthy, safe
kind of way. Everybody should be able to But I
don't think that standing to p is necessarily a feminist issue,
because feminism is not about emulating male behavior right or
(25:57):
making men emulate female behave exactly. So it's just it's
just a stale joke to me by this time. Yeah,
but I am glad that there are options out there
so that when I go into a disgusting porta potty,
I don't have to touch anything. Because I'm very much
like you. Stop complaining about public restrooms. It's fine to
sit down. Just get some toilet paper and wipe the
(26:19):
seat off or put a seat cover down. You'll be fine.
But I have been in plenty of disgusting porta potties
where I would be glad to have one. And it's
also so good to hear from listeners who have the
added perspective of being on job sites or out in
the field working, um who need these things for for
just basic health. We'll tell you what, Caroline, the next
(26:41):
music festival and more importantly, beer festival I go to.
I'm taking a fund. Yeah, are you thinking the disposable type,
one of the rubber ones? Are you just gonna go
to the automotive store and pick yourself up a funnel? See?
That's the struggle, because my thrifty side says, make your
own roll up some news paper. But my, you know,
(27:02):
my my luxurious side says, maybe a go girl, maybe
something with some soft silicone. That's wonderful, And you have
so many color options from there too, Yeah, all too pink,
green or green. And you know, my feminine side says pink,
but my more rustic side says green. So it really
is a lot of choices. And that's a great thing
(27:24):
about fuds and feminism is that, you know, you ladies
really can choose their choice. Yeah, take a stand. Ha
ha ha. I like that. I think that we now
need to make Sminty Fudds because you just came up
with our tagline. Yeah. Absolutely, We've already discussed having hey
ladies on the side with our back to back posts.
We've got our design, we've got our tagline. All we
(27:46):
need now is a manufacturer. So listeners call one eight
hundred Sminty Fudds feminist fuds, p like a feminist. That's
too many numbers. Yeah, that's a very long number. Um,
but maybe maybe we can pay extra or something like that. Well,
now I want to hear from folks out there, because
(28:06):
clearly there are some fun users in our audience, and
does anyone have any personal reviews to share with us,
because I'm all, I'm on board for these, but I
want the personally, I want the stories of of when
you were learning to use it because I understand that
a lot of these because they can be finicky. Uh,
it takes a lot of practice for some of them,
(28:27):
and so I want to hear I want to hear
your your p practice, horror stories, drivel stories, stories, Yes,
mom stuff at how stupworks dot com is where you
can send those stories, or you can tweet us if
they're really short, to add mom stuff podcasts or messages
on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages to
share with you when we come right back from a
quick break. Well, Caroline, I have an email here from
(28:57):
Priscilla about our man Cave podcast subject line man cave
led to break up? What us or no? So Priscilla rights,
my ex boyfriend's man cave led to our breakup, So
we didn't break them up. It wasn't us. My ex
(29:18):
boyfriend and I used to live in a small apartment.
As soon as we moved into a house, he declared
one of the rooms exclusively for him, explaining that I
had the rest of the house. I didn't think much
of it at the time, but then he started to
use his man cave as an escape when he was
not in a good mood. When he wanted to decompress
after a bad day at work, when he wanted to
(29:38):
play online games with his friends, or when he wanted
to watch shows I wasn't interested in. In the end,
it got to the point where he stopped communicating with me,
first about important things and later even about small things.
And one day out of the blue, he broke up
with me after I returned from a trip. It was unexpected.
In hindsight, I can see how I was living together
(29:59):
but yet separate in the same house and not talking
a k A parallel play could lead him to believe
what's the point. I don't know if he has ever
realized what a big part his man cave played in
our breakup. So, Priscilla, I'm so sorry to hear that
that happened, And listeners cautionary tale about man caves, because
(30:20):
even if yes, you need a room of your own,
communication is still vital, even more vital. Perhaps I have
a letter here from Wren, also about our man caves episode,
and he writes, I was impressed at the amount of
information you were able to provide. As a man who's
been living with my wife for the past six years,
I felt inspired to share some of my views. The
instinct to have an isolated physical space is a trait
(30:43):
common to personality types of either gender who draw their
energy from psychologically defined flow state activities. Maintaining a flow
state requires keeping focused attention on the task at hand
without distraction or interruption. Flow state activities range from socially
gendered ones like working on a car in the garage
or eating baby clothes, to more gender neutral activities like gardening, reading,
(31:03):
and playing music. For a variety of cultural reasons, men
habitually spend more of their time in flow state than women. However,
this is changing is the historical gender roles progress toward equality.
My feeling is that the majority of caves men create
are not motivated by a need for masculine expression, but
rather by the desire to create a functionally isolated and
or focused work or leisure space. Women who have the
(31:26):
same desire are equally likely to carve out spaces of
their own. Often, there is a perception of gender association
based on the function of the space. Video game stations
are perceived as being masculine, whereas craft rooms are proceved
perceived as being feminine. But to say that the function
of the space defines its gender affiliation is to imply
that women cannot be gamers and men cannot be crafty.
(31:48):
Anyone is allowed into a quote unquote cave so long
as they commit themselves to performing the activity the space
was designed for. I personally dislike the term man cave
because it reinforces notions for what kinds of activities are
appropriate for each gender and implies that one of the
primary motivators from men creating personal space is to assert
their masculinity. Yes, there are hyper masculine man caves with
(32:11):
cagurators and swimsuit calendars. However, my impression is that these
kind of caves are the minority. Thanks for reading my
thoughts on the topic. I love your podcast and find
each and every episode to be very enlightening. And RN,
we loved your letter and greatly appreciate it, and we
are definitely very pro having a room of one zone indeed,
so thanks, and we're also pro hearing from you, dear listeners.
(32:34):
Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our
email address. You can also messages on Facebook or tweet
us at mom stuff Podcasts and for links to all
of our social media as well as all of our bologs. Videos,
and podcasts, including this one. So you can see those
amazing patents for feminine urinary devices. Head on over the
(32:57):
Stuff Mom Never told You dot com for more on
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