November 27, 2019 • 30 mins
Deeply personal and emotional, forgiveness is also deeply difficult, fraught, and when it comes it to women, sometimes weaponized. Anney and Samantha debunk some forgiveness myths, discuss how-tos, and dig into the potential health benefits of letting go.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio as
how stuff works. But today we're actually tackling something that
I tried to do a year ago. I always started
(00:26):
working on this outline a year ago and was so
confused and torn about um, a lot of things that
were happening in my life and uh, this whole idea
of what we're talking about today, forgiveness. Right, So it's
been sitting in our folder for over a year. Yeah,
it's been there since I've even started. Yeah, I would
(00:46):
like start on it and then get frustrated and go
away from it. But it has been on my mind
a lot lately, and we did want to talk about
forgiveness today, especially since we're in this holiday season, as
we recorded, and supposed to be purportedly a time of gifness. Oh,
I thought, that's just when you tell people things, you know,
like the love actually bit, Oh God, don't talk to
(01:09):
me about love. Actually, I really don't know that much
about them actually, other than Alan Rickman was a cheater
to confess whatever the truth are, and you know you're
supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole like
signage sign be like, hey, I know you're married to
my best friend, but hey, I love you. We talked
(01:33):
about that forever ago and we actually got all our response.
People have strong opinions about that movie. They do. Yeah,
I like it. Apparently a lot of people do like it. No,
you know, as long as you can recognize some problematic
things that that's fine. Yeah. True later episode, but for
this one trigger warning before we get started, for brief
mentions of rape and sexual assault and domestic violence, but
(01:55):
very brief. We're just going to talk about how that
can play into forgiveness. And I'm someone who I've discovered
is terrible at forgiveness. Um. I have a huge tolerance.
You can do a lot of things before I say,
you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
(02:16):
wipe my hands of you. I cannot forgive you. Um.
And so I have never actually been to the point
of granting forgiveness. UM. And I am at the point
now where I do want to. I'm in the stage
that I want to, but I have an emotional block
(02:37):
around it. Like even if mentally I think you know what, okay,
I want to move on, there's something that I can't
go up emotionally, so that's kind of where I am. UM.
And a year ago, I was running on the beltline,
which is one of my favorite things, and the song
It's quite Uptown from Hamilton's came on. If you've never
heard that song, Um, it's about Hamilton's and his wife Eliza,
(03:02):
UM and the idea of forgiveness because he cheated on her.
And I know a lot of people are going to
write in that we didn't mention that in our political
scandal episode. It's been talked about a lot. But if
you guys want us to talk about it, I happily,
happily will. I love Hamilton's. But anyway, UM, I've heard
that song hundreds of time, probably not even exaggeration a
hundred times, but that time something about it stopped me
in my tracks and I started crying, um because of
(03:25):
this idea of forgiveness and the power of it, and
something just clicked UM. And it's ever since then, it's
just kind of been in the back of my brain.
And I do want to say before we get into this,
forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. We are not in
the business of telling anyone that they should forgive someone
and no one else should be either. Um. There's a
(03:46):
long history of women being gaslighted to forgive um, or
that concept of forgiveness being weaponized against women, and we
aren't we are going to touch on that, but I
just want to say I think forgiveness has gotten wrapped
up in it's a good thing to do, and therefore
you should do it. There are benefits to it, but
you really don't have to if you don't want to,
and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
(04:10):
So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
Psychologists generally defined forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
get myself in an unhealthy logic trap of deserve whether
(04:32):
or not the person deserved it. But it's not about them, um,
and what they do or do not deserve. It is
about you and what you want, which is actually a
great segue into what forgiveness isn't. It does not mean
forgetting or minimizing or excusing or condoning. It does not
mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and it doesn't free
(04:53):
the other party from being accountable to the law. It
is about letting go of negative emotions that the forgiver
wants to let go self. Forgiveness can also be extremely liberating,
extremely yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
(05:14):
things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
forgiveness with reconciliation with trap someone in that situation and
a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
only path to closure. I'm moving on. Forgiving when you're
not ready is really detrimental, and forgiveness is generally understood
to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value of
(05:34):
the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings. And our culture
seems to be completely torn when it comes to you forgiveness.
I mean, I've seen it as being foolish or weak submissive.
I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy,
(05:54):
in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times that
we may feels sure from other people to forgive because
it's the right thing to do, in quotes that it
would doing so would make you a good person. And
at the same time, we have so many sayings about
forgiveness to airs to be human, to forgive is divine,
(06:15):
To understand all is to forgive all. Um. It just
seems we're all very conflicted about this idea of forgiveness.
A study conducted by psychologists Charlotte ben Oyan vit Valt
found that asking participants to remember an instance when someone
had offended, hurt, or mistreated them resulted in a whole
(06:37):
range of physical responses from increased heart rate, blood pressure,
muscle tension, and sweating. People described the experience as unpleasant.
It made them angry, It made them sad, It made
them feel like they had less control. When they were
asked to imagine forgiving their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
(06:57):
A survey of fift Americans about how much they practiced
forgiveness revealed that middle aged and older people forgave at
higher rates when compared to their younger counterparts, and the
researchers found a relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health
and older respondence. So grudges have been linked with increased
risk of cardiovascular disease and in various ways can compromise
(07:18):
our immune systems. Grudges can impact future relationships and diminish
ability to enjoy the present. Forgiveness is important in terms
of emotional and disengaging from trauma. Forgiving is often emotional
and painful. A twenty sixteen study divided a group of
one five students who had recently experienced bullying into three
scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found that
(07:42):
both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger, but
they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during the
course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a decrease
and empowerment, ability to cope, and self esteem. However, the
forgiveness group experienced the most stress us. This seems to
demonstrate just how difficult and stressful that the act of
(08:04):
forgiveness is, and that healing takes time. Forgiveness maybe better
in the long run, but in the short term it's
more painful than avoidance or revenge. The researchers suggested that
perhaps a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough
time is passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire
forgiveness that smart? Another study found that in the context
(08:26):
of relationships, people who are more likely to pursue revenge
instead of forgiveness were more likely to go through negative
consequences and conflict. Ultimately, the takeaway was it's really beneficial
to have tools and strategies ready to deal with the
rough times. One of these things can be forgiveness. And
analysis of seventeen studies around relationships and forgiveness found that
after the betrayal of a partner, the relationship goes often change,
(08:48):
becoming more about evening the score, winning arguments, and other
competitive things like that. So forgiveness is suggested as a
way to return to more balanced relationship. Yeah, and again,
we're not telling anybody's forgive if they don't want it to,
and of course people are complicated. Some researchers suggest people
that are generally happier um can more easily forgive and
report higher levels of happiness. When people are feeling better
(09:12):
about their transgressor like after an apology or some type
of um physical restitution, they usually experience a decrease in
physical arousal meaning like symptoms um high blood pressure and
stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse,
so so something to keep an eye on. Yeah, that's
(09:33):
definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found decreased stress
levels and positive health benefits just when adopting a forgiving attitude.
Since stress has a cumulative effect, these benefits were more
pronounced in older folks. Some studies suggest that the part
of the brain associated with forgiveness is the limbic system,
not the part of the brain associated with reasoned judgment
(09:53):
as previously thought. The act of forgiveness has long been
thought to be an emotional one, and it is, but
recent studies indicate it is a cognitive one as well. Therefore,
experts recommend cognitive reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily,
revenge is easier than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal
(10:15):
with someone who would harm you is to avoid them
or to hit back. According to psychologist, revenge is unique
and that it is motivated by hate, which makes it
different than anger and the belief that just by existing
someone is doing you harm. Revenge is often disproportionate to
the original act that inspired the revenge. I know. I
(10:36):
was about to say I had to write a paper
on this in French um in college about how why
is it Most of our action movies start with the
main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere,
and it's like so violent and over the top. I
was about to talk about never mind because it's too many,
(10:59):
because I was like, I was thinking about the Joker, Um,
But I don't want to say anything that could be
a spoiler for those who haven't seen it or wanted
to see it. All of that. But yeah, kind of.
I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory, there's
all and the creation of Batman alone, we know that backstory.
His revenge is. I have to say, Um, I get
the appeal of revenge stories, but they do make me
(11:21):
kind of uncomfortable. It's like it's something about them as
always sort of unsettled me. They're dark. I guess they're
very dark for sure. For sure. Um, so let's talk
about the how to for this right. Psychologist Robert in
Right proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
(11:43):
and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
You can only really forgive for what people have done
to you. Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me
because the example they gave is if you were as
a child you witnessed your say father or abuse your mother,
you can't forgive him for doing that. You can forgive
(12:05):
him for the pain and fear and just hurt that
he caused you. But it has to be specific to
what happened to you. If you are the abused, you
are the want to forgive. Right. It's a bit different
when it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility
is important, but holding onto shame and guilt for too
(12:27):
long isn't helpful. The first step is similar, recognizing that
you're in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then
you dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and
what was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
similar situation in the future. When you've taken these steps
forgive yourself, allowed or on paper, then if another party
(12:50):
is involved, apologize. We're gonna get more into apology later, um,
but you apologize genuinely and not afecting anything from the
other person. Um, and then take steps to make things right.
If you're looking to forgive but struggling, there are support
groups and counseling out there that can help. Some other
(13:11):
tips are practicing empathy, reflecting on times you've heard others
and um, what was going on in your head when
you did right, and your journal if you have a journal.
If you don't, I recommend getting one UM or meditation. Also,
if you can't forgive UM patients, be patient. It is
hard and it takes time. Yeah. And again we're not
saying that you have to know this is completely based
(13:32):
on you. And also if, and this is a big
if the wrong doer shows no signs of changing, it
is toxic. It is an unhealthy relationship and it will
always be unhealthy. Right. Um. Yeah, distance from someone like that.
You can still forgive if you would like to write,
but distance is key. That person won't keep hurting you
because you forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the
(13:55):
harm that's happening to you. Yes, exactly, UM. And we
did want to specifically at um some some studies around
women and forgiveness. But first we have a quick break
for a word from our sponsor and we're back, Thank
(14:21):
you sponsor. Okay. So, there actually have been a lot
of studies looking into this. UM. One of them is
from It's a study from the University of the Basque
Country and it looked into gender differences and forgiveness and
the study found that women are better at forgiving UM.
The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
(14:42):
That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
they also felt those benefits. I think holding onto things
is just tiring. That's what I've learned as I'm getting older,
and I'm just tired of being angry at you. Um.
(15:05):
So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
fare better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
(15:26):
are less forgiving than women when it comes to sexual
abuse against women. There are a lot of misconceptions that
to forgive means that you don't report sexual assault, or
that if you do, you haven't forgiven the person, or
that forgiving someone means that you're totally cool with them.
None of these things are true, and pressing women to
(15:46):
forgiven abuser who is unrepetant and still in their lives
is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness a
Special Case argues that women are a special class of
victims and possible forgivers, and that women quote may have
some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
to ask why is it that we have so much
(16:07):
trouble with the woman who will not forgive? Janice Hawkins
essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Psychoanalytic and
cultural perspectives on Forgiveness also digs into the feminism of
forgiveness and goes out of her way to make the
point that forgiveness is neither good or bad. She writes,
as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak up and
claim new rights, including their right to disengage from abusive relationships,
(16:31):
the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically, forgiveness
benefits them for hurting other people. Um and this brings
us to gas lighting. Women are frequently made to feel
guilty if they don't forgive. Scorned, bitter cold. These are
ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them to forgive.
(16:55):
It's another way of dismissing women as emotional and invalidating
their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the story so
that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her um. Any
negative emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be
(17:16):
the better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving.
It's the choice, very personal one. Yeah, so we've seen
examples with the Kavanaugh case in itself that like it's
so long ago. He was just a kid. Can't you
let that go? You're just being petty. It's so absurd
that they're that more likely to call her names rather
than keep accountability for those who were responsible for the action. Yeah, totally. UM.
(17:41):
When Selma Hiak wrote UM in The New York Times
about her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's
sexual harassment, one of the reasons she gave was that
she was proud of her capacity for forgiveness, and and
this essay was when she was sort of being like,
this is why I didn't do it, and I know
that easier I should have. I not should have, But
(18:02):
it was her looking back on why she didn't, and
that makes perfect sense. So some arguments put forth that
for some women trying to distance themselves from the angry
feminist stereo type, they might be more forgiving, which you know,
that's always a really bad negative. A similar argument can
has been made that black people are asked and expected
to forgive white racist without ever getting so much as
(18:22):
an apology or even recognition, which we can talk about
with UM. The slavery and just people doing like why
are you keep bringing that up? And it's like, what
the hell, y'all, really why because it's important and we
need to acknowledge the trauma that it has caused and
it still continues to cause. So let's talk about religion,
because I think that's one of the big things where
(18:43):
we talk about forgiveness. There's sixty two passages in the
Bible that include the word forgive, and then there's twenty
seven passages that contain the word forgiveness. That is a lot.
Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
(19:06):
leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all. Only
God can forgive um. So there's a lot going on there.
There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
(19:28):
of forgiveness. I don't think it's just an old idea
in itself, forgiveness and what it's supposed to do, and
it is kind of absolving people who have committed since essentially,
and I think it is a good balance to understand
what is right for you. Yes, yes, um, And we
do have a little bit more about that, but first
(19:50):
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I guess
one of the biggest takeaways for me is that I
(20:13):
am going to reframe how I think about forgiveness. I'm
gonna make it all about me, um, because in this
case I am the wrong um and UM, I'm just
gonna think of it almost like it has nothing to
do with the other person. UM. If you are the
ones seeking forgiveness um, which can mean just apologizing and
(20:37):
leaving the other person to hell, that will make it
all about them. Um. And yeah. A few situations are
so black and white, it's been for me. Everybody has
such a specific story and it's complex in its own way. UM.
So it's hard to give really good specific advice. But
here are some general ideas that might help, and a
(20:59):
quick note about how to apologize. UM. A good apology
can open up a dialogue and is the beginnings of
re establishing trust. Or it can be it entails um
that you show remorse, you acknowledge that you caused hurt.
It has to be sincere and not flip it around
to make it the other person's fault, like it was
(21:19):
just a joke. I'm sorry you felt hurt. Um. I
think that's probably one of the biggest sins when it
comes to apologies is that you make excuses. And I've
done it too. Um. You make excuses for your behavior
and make it like the other person was overreacting. So
if you're apologizing with a but yes, don't do that,
or if you apologizing i'm sorry you write the youth statements,
(21:40):
go ahead stop. Yeah, yeah, it's better. A short apology
is better than any kind of long winded here's my excuse. Um.
A good apology also involves making amends, providing something actionable
to show your serious um, putting yourself in the other
person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why they were hurt. Um.
(22:07):
Then offer steps to make sure that whatever it was
doesn't happen again. Um. Yes, don't do not make it
about you. Apologies also got to be said, are sometimes
hurtful and unwelcome, So if you're doing it to make
yourself feel better, that is not a good apology. And
also remember impact matters more than intention. I think a
(22:28):
lot of people get caught in that that trap as well. UM,
and I can and have written a paper on this,
my infamous essay about doing the dishes. It was about
a lot more than that, but I used the dishes
as a case study. I really don't like doing dishes.
I really really don't. UM. And then I've I've kind
(22:51):
of noticed in my life I feel like some people
blame me for things, and I'm not sure what they are. UM.
So it's hard to apologize her. I'm not even sure
that I need to apologize. But this is a time
when I need to remember all of the episodes where
we have sung the praises of communication. Yes, always talk
(23:11):
to each other. When one of Bill Cosby's alleged victims
was asked by Anderson Cooper, can you forget something like this?
Her response was, I forgave Bill cost but years ago.
For me, when you hold onto resentment for someone like that,
it's not hurting them, it's only hurting you. And I
think that's very valid Um for all of us. I
(23:32):
think I felt the same way, and I'm sure you
have to when you have been a victim from someone
that you may never see again, that you have to
forgive maybe not even just forgive, but let it go
and that's the best you can do for yourself. Um.
I think that's recently. It came up in one of
my therapy sessions lately, and she said there's a quote like,
(23:57):
not forgiving it is like drinking poison, inspecting the other
person to die, or not not forgiving, but not letting
go because yeah, they probably in some cases at least
they don't care. It's not anything to them. It is difficult,
though it's easier said than we understand that. And I
still have questions around forgiveness. UM. I got caught up
(24:20):
in this whole idea of some things may just truly
be unforgivable. Um. But I do think I want to forgive.
I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
the emotional block, is that I've just been avoiding. Um.
And apparently this is an idea that's been on my
(24:41):
brain for a very long time because one of my
favorite things I've written, the D and D character that
I played to finish out the end of the story.
I like that you were just having like figure rings
on across our Death Season miniature many of her UM.
It's all about UM forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge
and redemption, and it's interesting to see how it's evolved
(25:05):
as I've continued to write it. UM. But that is
about what we have to say on forgiveness today. We
would love to hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or
just stories they have about forgiveness or not forgiveness UM.
And we have heard from some listeners already that we
would like to read here now. Marie wrote, I was
(25:28):
super excited when I saw you were doing spooky episodes
for October, especially the Female Monsters episode. I just want
to tell you about one of my favorite books, which
not only features a badass monster eating primordial goddess who
very often refers to herself as a monster as a protagonist,
but she's also got a female romantic interest. The book
is called The One Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews,
(25:50):
and it's incredible book. As a recently out lesbian, I've
been trying to consume as much lgbt Q plus fiction
as possible, mostly sci fi fantasy literature. Involving lesbians. I've
had to score are the internet and bookstores to get
my fixed, and I've noticed that there's definitely been an
increase in the amount of representation and fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway,
I just want to tell you all about my favorite book.
I'd love it if you did an episode on queer
(26:11):
literature or badass lesbians in literature. We would love that too.
And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
is listeners. If you've got some examples, send them our away.
I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
then we have a letter from Marissa, my friend Marissa'll
look at out you like that, but she wrote this
(26:34):
um and I responded like I do to any listener,
as if I didn't know her. So I hope you
enjoyed that, Mirissa. She wrote, I have to throw my
two cents in on my experience with the opioid crisis. First,
my background is a traveling ear nurse. At this point
in my career, I've worked in six different states Georgia, Massa, Tustats, California,
I'll ask the Colorado and Maine. As a medical professional
(26:56):
and the trenches of this opioid epidemic. I can assure
you this is truly a problem everywhere. However, there is
one e ER assignment that stands out. This community was
being devastated by heroin. Every night. We had at least
a handful of O d s overdoses. This was a
big seventy five bed e er. Narcan had to be
so readily available that there were internasal narcan rapid response
(27:19):
boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations all around
the e R. For instance, they had a box and
triage due to so many people being dropped off in
front with O d s not breathing. All of the police,
firefighters and e m s carried narcan and knew how
to use it. I would like to share a little
narcan knowledge with you. First, you must know what a
drug half life is, the time it takes the drug
(27:41):
concentration to reach less than the starting dose in the body.
I don't want to get too technical, but essentially heroin
works longer than the antidote Narcan nalaczone. Narcan brings them
out of their high fasts and many times these slumped
over lifeless O d s would reanimate rather violently and combatively.
It's hard to rationalize with an addict who's come violently
(28:01):
out of their high to stay there recommended four hours
after narcan. So essentially, I'm rying to let anyone out
there that has to administered narcan no to keep watching
your friend or loved one. The half life of narcan
is shorter than that of heroin, so essentially you can
be revived from the brink of an O D death,
But if you leave too soon or not watch can
get into the same situation again. The drug wave could
(28:24):
still crash over you and take you under, So continue
to watch someone for several hours after administering nar can. Also,
Narcan Nalockstone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
without a prescription. If you're using, please have the safety
plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
using no where the narcan is and how to use it.
(28:46):
Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
Those that have allergy reactions carry eppens epinephrin. If you're using,
you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
Enough people have died this epidemic. It is just joining families.
Please don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a
lot of good information that Yeah, I didn't know that either,
(29:08):
So thanks um Merissa for sharing fighting, Yeah, the good
fight as a nurse. Thank you so much for what
you're doing. Yeah, Um, and thanks for writing in, taking
the time and sharing that knowledge. And we would love
to hear from other listeners. Thanks to these too for
writing in. If you would like to write to us,
you can our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at
(29:30):
i heeart media dot com. You can also find us
on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at
stuff One never told You. Thanks as always to our
superproducer Andrew Howard. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening.
Steph owner told you the protection of I Heart Radios
how stuff works For more podcasts from Heart Radio is
our her radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
(29:52):
to your favorite shows. Do you know when you w
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to Stuff.
I've never told your protection of I Heart Radio as
how stuff works. But today we're actually tackling something that
I tried to do a year ago. I always started
(00:26):
working on this outline a year ago and was so
confused and torn about um, a lot of things that
were happening in my life and uh, this whole idea
of what we're talking about today, forgiveness. Right, So it's
been sitting in our folder for over a year. Yeah,
it's been there since I've even started. Yeah, I would
(00:46):
like start on it and then get frustrated and go
away from it. But it has been on my mind
a lot lately, and we did want to talk about
forgiveness today, especially since we're in this holiday season, as
we recorded, and supposed to be purportedly a time of gifness. Oh,
I thought, that's just when you tell people things, you know,
like the love actually bit, Oh God, don't talk to
(01:09):
me about love. Actually, I really don't know that much
about them actually, other than Alan Rickman was a cheater
to confess whatever the truth are, and you know you're
supposed to be honest. Okay, that's where the whole like
signage sign be like, hey, I know you're married to
my best friend, but hey, I love you. We talked
(01:33):
about that forever ago and we actually got all our response.
People have strong opinions about that movie. They do. Yeah,
I like it. Apparently a lot of people do like it. No,
you know, as long as you can recognize some problematic
things that that's fine. Yeah. True later episode, but for
this one trigger warning before we get started, for brief
mentions of rape and sexual assault and domestic violence, but
(01:55):
very brief. We're just going to talk about how that
can play into forgiveness. And I'm someone who I've discovered
is terrible at forgiveness. Um. I have a huge tolerance.
You can do a lot of things before I say,
you know what, You've done enough, and then I like
(02:16):
wipe my hands of you. I cannot forgive you. Um.
And so I have never actually been to the point
of granting forgiveness. UM. And I am at the point
now where I do want to. I'm in the stage
that I want to, but I have an emotional block
(02:37):
around it. Like even if mentally I think you know what, okay,
I want to move on, there's something that I can't
go up emotionally, so that's kind of where I am. UM.
And a year ago, I was running on the beltline,
which is one of my favorite things, and the song
It's quite Uptown from Hamilton's came on. If you've never
heard that song, Um, it's about Hamilton's and his wife Eliza,
(03:02):
UM and the idea of forgiveness because he cheated on her.
And I know a lot of people are going to
write in that we didn't mention that in our political
scandal episode. It's been talked about a lot. But if
you guys want us to talk about it, I happily,
happily will. I love Hamilton's. But anyway, UM, I've heard
that song hundreds of time, probably not even exaggeration a
hundred times, but that time something about it stopped me
in my tracks and I started crying, um because of
(03:25):
this idea of forgiveness and the power of it, and
something just clicked UM. And it's ever since then, it's
just kind of been in the back of my brain.
And I do want to say before we get into this,
forgiveness is deeply, deeply, deeply personal. We are not in
the business of telling anyone that they should forgive someone
and no one else should be either. Um. There's a
(03:46):
long history of women being gaslighted to forgive um, or
that concept of forgiveness being weaponized against women, and we
aren't we are going to touch on that, but I
just want to say I think forgiveness has gotten wrapped
up in it's a good thing to do, and therefore
you should do it. There are benefits to it, but
you really don't have to if you don't want to,
and in fact, doing so can be detrimental. All right,
(04:10):
So let's start with some basics from the Greater Good magazine.
Psychologists generally defined forgiveness as a conscious, deliberate decision to
release feelings of resentment or vengeance toward a person or
group who has harmed you, regardless of whether they actually
deserve your forgiveness. And that's key because I used to
get myself in an unhealthy logic trap of deserve whether
(04:32):
or not the person deserved it. But it's not about them, um,
and what they do or do not deserve. It is
about you and what you want, which is actually a
great segue into what forgiveness isn't. It does not mean
forgetting or minimizing or excusing or condoning. It does not
mean reconciliation or accepting continued wrongdoing, and it doesn't free
(04:53):
the other party from being accountable to the law. It
is about letting go of negative emotions that the forgiver
wants to let go self. Forgiveness can also be extremely liberating,
extremely yeah, and confusing. Forgiveness and reconciliation is common and inaccurate.
Waiting for someone else to reconcile is disempowering, and some
(05:14):
things can't be paid back, it cannot be reconciled. Equating
forgiveness with reconciliation with trap someone in that situation and
a disruptive state of unforgiveness. Forgiveness is also not the
only path to closure. I'm moving on. Forgiving when you're
not ready is really detrimental, and forgiveness is generally understood
to hinge on two pieces of information, relationship value of
(05:34):
the wrongdoer and probability of future wrongdoings. And our culture
seems to be completely torn when it comes to you forgiveness.
I mean, I've seen it as being foolish or weak submissive.
I've seen it on the opposite end, being called something
like your duty. It's wrapped up in religion and philosophy,
(05:54):
in some cases, in relationships and politics. At times that
we may feels sure from other people to forgive because
it's the right thing to do, in quotes that it
would doing so would make you a good person. And
at the same time, we have so many sayings about
forgiveness to airs to be human, to forgive is divine,
(06:15):
To understand all is to forgive all. Um. It just
seems we're all very conflicted about this idea of forgiveness.
A study conducted by psychologists Charlotte ben Oyan vit Valt
found that asking participants to remember an instance when someone
had offended, hurt, or mistreated them resulted in a whole
(06:37):
range of physical responses from increased heart rate, blood pressure,
muscle tension, and sweating. People described the experience as unpleasant.
It made them angry, It made them sad, It made
them feel like they had less control. When they were
asked to imagine forgiving their offender, these physical responses relaxed.
(06:57):
A survey of fift Americans about how much they practiced
forgiveness revealed that middle aged and older people forgave at
higher rates when compared to their younger counterparts, and the
researchers found a relationship between forgiveness and increased mental health
and older respondence. So grudges have been linked with increased
risk of cardiovascular disease and in various ways can compromise
(07:18):
our immune systems. Grudges can impact future relationships and diminish
ability to enjoy the present. Forgiveness is important in terms
of emotional and disengaging from trauma. Forgiving is often emotional
and painful. A twenty sixteen study divided a group of
one five students who had recently experienced bullying into three
scenario groups, forgiveness, revenge, and avoidance. The researchers found that
(07:42):
both the forgiveness and avoidance groups didn't feel stronger, but
they did experience a decrease in negative emotions during the
course of the experiment. The revenge group felt a decrease
and empowerment, ability to cope, and self esteem. However, the
forgiveness group experienced the most stress us. This seems to
demonstrate just how difficult and stressful that the act of
(08:04):
forgiveness is, and that healing takes time. Forgiveness maybe better
in the long run, but in the short term it's
more painful than avoidance or revenge. The researchers suggested that
perhaps a mixed approach is best avoidance until long enough
time is passed. Distances passed, then should you so desire
forgiveness that smart? Another study found that in the context
(08:26):
of relationships, people who are more likely to pursue revenge
instead of forgiveness were more likely to go through negative
consequences and conflict. Ultimately, the takeaway was it's really beneficial
to have tools and strategies ready to deal with the
rough times. One of these things can be forgiveness. And
analysis of seventeen studies around relationships and forgiveness found that
after the betrayal of a partner, the relationship goes often change,
(08:48):
becoming more about evening the score, winning arguments, and other
competitive things like that. So forgiveness is suggested as a
way to return to more balanced relationship. Yeah, and again,
we're not telling anybody's forgive if they don't want it to,
and of course people are complicated. Some researchers suggest people
that are generally happier um can more easily forgive and
report higher levels of happiness. When people are feeling better
(09:12):
about their transgressor like after an apology or some type
of um physical restitution, they usually experience a decrease in
physical arousal meaning like symptoms um high blood pressure and
stuff like that, which makes them more likely to forgive. However,
we know abusers use this to continue cycles of abuse,
so so something to keep an eye on. Yeah, that's
(09:33):
definitely a manipulative tactic. Other studies have found decreased stress
levels and positive health benefits just when adopting a forgiving attitude.
Since stress has a cumulative effect, these benefits were more
pronounced in older folks. Some studies suggest that the part
of the brain associated with forgiveness is the limbic system,
not the part of the brain associated with reasoned judgment
(09:53):
as previously thought. The act of forgiveness has long been
thought to be an emotional one, and it is, but
recent studies indicate it is a cognitive one as well. Therefore,
experts recommend cognitive reframing if you're looking to forgive. Evolutionarily,
revenge is easier than forgiveness. The easiest way to deal
(10:15):
with someone who would harm you is to avoid them
or to hit back. According to psychologist, revenge is unique
and that it is motivated by hate, which makes it
different than anger and the belief that just by existing
someone is doing you harm. Revenge is often disproportionate to
the original act that inspired the revenge. I know. I
(10:36):
was about to say I had to write a paper
on this in French um in college about how why
is it Most of our action movies start with the
main character's wife getting murdered and then he kills everyone everywhere,
and it's like so violent and over the top. I
was about to talk about never mind because it's too many,
(10:59):
because I was like, I was thinking about the Joker, Um,
But I don't want to say anything that could be
a spoiler for those who haven't seen it or wanted
to see it. All of that. But yeah, kind of.
I think everybody knows that there's always a backstory, there's
all and the creation of Batman alone, we know that backstory.
His revenge is. I have to say, Um, I get
the appeal of revenge stories, but they do make me
(11:21):
kind of uncomfortable. It's like it's something about them as
always sort of unsettled me. They're dark. I guess they're
very dark for sure. For sure. Um, so let's talk
about the how to for this right. Psychologist Robert in
Right proposed that forgiveness has four steps, recognizing the anger,
deciding to forgive, building up compassion for the wrong doer,
(11:43):
and then letting go of negative emotions. Being specific really helped.
You can only really forgive for what people have done
to you. Yeah, and reading that was helpful for me
because the example they gave is if you were as
a child you witnessed your say father or abuse your mother,
you can't forgive him for doing that. You can forgive
(12:05):
him for the pain and fear and just hurt that
he caused you. But it has to be specific to
what happened to you. If you are the abused, you
are the want to forgive. Right. It's a bit different
when it comes to forgiving yourself self forgiveness. Accepting responsibility
is important, but holding onto shame and guilt for too
(12:27):
long isn't helpful. The first step is similar, recognizing that
you're in the wrong and your actions caused pain. Then
you dig a bit deeper, identifying why it happened and
what was in your control and what wasn't in your control.
Pinpoint lessons you learned and how you can avoid a
similar situation in the future. When you've taken these steps
forgive yourself, allowed or on paper, then if another party
(12:50):
is involved, apologize. We're gonna get more into apology later, um,
but you apologize genuinely and not afecting anything from the
other person. Um, and then take steps to make things right.
If you're looking to forgive but struggling, there are support
groups and counseling out there that can help. Some other
(13:11):
tips are practicing empathy, reflecting on times you've heard others
and um, what was going on in your head when
you did right, and your journal if you have a journal.
If you don't, I recommend getting one UM or meditation. Also,
if you can't forgive UM patients, be patient. It is
hard and it takes time. Yeah. And again we're not
saying that you have to know this is completely based
(13:32):
on you. And also if, and this is a big
if the wrong doer shows no signs of changing, it
is toxic. It is an unhealthy relationship and it will
always be unhealthy. Right. Um. Yeah, distance from someone like that.
You can still forgive if you would like to write,
but distance is key. That person won't keep hurting you
because you forgiving doesn't mean you have to repeat the
(13:55):
harm that's happening to you. Yes, exactly, UM. And we
did want to specifically at um some some studies around
women and forgiveness. But first we have a quick break
for a word from our sponsor and we're back, Thank
(14:21):
you sponsor. Okay. So, there actually have been a lot
of studies looking into this. UM. One of them is
from It's a study from the University of the Basque
Country and it looked into gender differences and forgiveness and
the study found that women are better at forgiving UM.
The study authors suspect that women are more empathetic than men.
(14:42):
That was one of the reasons they gave, which is
key when it comes to forgiveness. Women, especially older women,
seem to reap more of the benefits of forgiveness as well.
Even women who reported feeling that they themselves were unforgiven,
they also felt those benefits. I think holding onto things
is just tiring. That's what I've learned as I'm getting older,
and I'm just tired of being angry at you. Um.
(15:05):
So one study showed that forgiveness can make men feel weak,
and that more forgiving men suffer from higher levels of
depression as compared to less forgiving men self. Forgiving men
fare better, but forgiving others didn't show the same positive link.
The scientists behind the study believe that because forgiveness is
seen as a more feminine thing, it is painted as
weak and in general, for a variety of reasons, men
(15:26):
are less forgiving than women when it comes to sexual
abuse against women. There are a lot of misconceptions that
to forgive means that you don't report sexual assault, or
that if you do, you haven't forgiven the person, or
that forgiving someone means that you're totally cool with them.
None of these things are true, and pressing women to
(15:46):
forgiven abuser who is unrepetant and still in their lives
is dangerous. Sharon Lamb's essay Women Abuse and Forgiveness a
Special Case argues that women are a special class of
victims and possible forgivers, and that women quote may have
some particular reasons not to forgive, and she goes on
to ask why is it that we have so much
(16:07):
trouble with the woman who will not forgive? Janice Hawkins
essay The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly Psychoanalytic and
cultural perspectives on Forgiveness also digs into the feminism of
forgiveness and goes out of her way to make the
point that forgiveness is neither good or bad. She writes,
as oppressed groups gain the strength to speak up and
claim new rights, including their right to disengage from abusive relationships,
(16:31):
the powerful rediscover the salutary virtue of forgiveness. Basically, forgiveness
benefits them for hurting other people. Um and this brings
us to gas lighting. Women are frequently made to feel
guilty if they don't forgive. Scorned, bitter cold. These are
ways to stigmatize unforgiving women and pressure them to forgive.
(16:55):
It's another way of dismissing women as emotional and invalidating
their probably completely legitimate reactions. It flips the story so
that the woman is to blame. She's just bitter, overreacting, irrational,
sensitive drama queen petty. It is on her um. Any
negative emotions she's experiencing are her fault. She should be
(17:16):
the better person and forgive again. Forgiving or not forgiving.
It's the choice, very personal one. Yeah, so we've seen
examples with the Kavanaugh case in itself that like it's
so long ago. He was just a kid. Can't you
let that go? You're just being petty. It's so absurd
that they're that more likely to call her names rather
than keep accountability for those who were responsible for the action. Yeah, totally. UM.
(17:41):
When Selma Hiak wrote UM in The New York Times
about her reasons for not speaking up about Harvey Weinstein's
sexual harassment, one of the reasons she gave was that
she was proud of her capacity for forgiveness, and and
this essay was when she was sort of being like,
this is why I didn't do it, and I know
that easier I should have. I not should have, But
(18:02):
it was her looking back on why she didn't, and
that makes perfect sense. So some arguments put forth that
for some women trying to distance themselves from the angry
feminist stereo type, they might be more forgiving, which you know,
that's always a really bad negative. A similar argument can
has been made that black people are asked and expected
to forgive white racist without ever getting so much as
(18:22):
an apology or even recognition, which we can talk about
with UM. The slavery and just people doing like why
are you keep bringing that up? And it's like, what
the hell, y'all, really why because it's important and we
need to acknowledge the trauma that it has caused and
it still continues to cause. So let's talk about religion,
because I think that's one of the big things where
(18:43):
we talk about forgiveness. There's sixty two passages in the
Bible that include the word forgive, and then there's twenty
seven passages that contain the word forgiveness. That is a lot.
Some religions do connect forgiveness with being a good person,
especially for women. There have been multiple instances of numerous
women reporting sexual abuse by church leaders to other church
(19:06):
leaders and being told they must forgive to get into heaven,
and by forgive they meant don't tell anybody. Right, in
some interpretations of Christianity, people can't forgive it all. Only
God can forgive um. So there's a lot going on there.
There are a lot of pressures here around this idea
(19:28):
of forgiveness. I don't think it's just an old idea
in itself, forgiveness and what it's supposed to do, and
it is kind of absolving people who have committed since essentially,
and I think it is a good balance to understand
what is right for you. Yes, yes, um, And we
do have a little bit more about that, but first
(19:50):
we have one more quick break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So I guess
one of the biggest takeaways for me is that I
(20:13):
am going to reframe how I think about forgiveness. I'm
gonna make it all about me, um, because in this
case I am the wrong um and UM, I'm just
gonna think of it almost like it has nothing to
do with the other person. UM. If you are the
ones seeking forgiveness um, which can mean just apologizing and
(20:37):
leaving the other person to hell, that will make it
all about them. Um. And yeah. A few situations are
so black and white, it's been for me. Everybody has
such a specific story and it's complex in its own way. UM.
So it's hard to give really good specific advice. But
here are some general ideas that might help, and a
(20:59):
quick note about how to apologize. UM. A good apology
can open up a dialogue and is the beginnings of
re establishing trust. Or it can be it entails um
that you show remorse, you acknowledge that you caused hurt.
It has to be sincere and not flip it around
to make it the other person's fault, like it was
(21:19):
just a joke. I'm sorry you felt hurt. Um. I
think that's probably one of the biggest sins when it
comes to apologies is that you make excuses. And I've
done it too. Um. You make excuses for your behavior
and make it like the other person was overreacting. So
if you're apologizing with a but yes, don't do that,
or if you apologizing i'm sorry you write the youth statements,
(21:40):
go ahead stop. Yeah, yeah, it's better. A short apology
is better than any kind of long winded here's my excuse. Um.
A good apology also involves making amends, providing something actionable
to show your serious um, putting yourself in the other
person's shoes, and honestly trying to understand why they were hurt. Um.
(22:07):
Then offer steps to make sure that whatever it was
doesn't happen again. Um. Yes, don't do not make it
about you. Apologies also got to be said, are sometimes
hurtful and unwelcome, So if you're doing it to make
yourself feel better, that is not a good apology. And
also remember impact matters more than intention. I think a
(22:28):
lot of people get caught in that that trap as well. UM,
and I can and have written a paper on this,
my infamous essay about doing the dishes. It was about
a lot more than that, but I used the dishes
as a case study. I really don't like doing dishes.
I really really don't. UM. And then I've I've kind
(22:51):
of noticed in my life I feel like some people
blame me for things, and I'm not sure what they are. UM.
So it's hard to apologize her. I'm not even sure
that I need to apologize. But this is a time
when I need to remember all of the episodes where
we have sung the praises of communication. Yes, always talk
(23:11):
to each other. When one of Bill Cosby's alleged victims
was asked by Anderson Cooper, can you forget something like this?
Her response was, I forgave Bill cost but years ago.
For me, when you hold onto resentment for someone like that,
it's not hurting them, it's only hurting you. And I
think that's very valid Um for all of us. I
(23:32):
think I felt the same way, and I'm sure you
have to when you have been a victim from someone
that you may never see again, that you have to
forgive maybe not even just forgive, but let it go
and that's the best you can do for yourself. Um.
I think that's recently. It came up in one of
my therapy sessions lately, and she said there's a quote like,
(23:57):
not forgiving it is like drinking poison, inspecting the other
person to die, or not not forgiving, but not letting
go because yeah, they probably in some cases at least
they don't care. It's not anything to them. It is difficult,
though it's easier said than we understand that. And I
still have questions around forgiveness. UM. I got caught up
(24:20):
in this whole idea of some things may just truly
be unforgivable. Um. But I do think I want to forgive.
I think I'm in that stage. But before that I can,
I have to deal with a lot of the fallout
that I've been avoiding for so long. I think that's
the emotional block, is that I've just been avoiding. Um.
And apparently this is an idea that's been on my
(24:41):
brain for a very long time because one of my
favorite things I've written, the D and D character that
I played to finish out the end of the story.
I like that you were just having like figure rings
on across our Death Season miniature many of her UM.
It's all about UM forgiveness or not forgiving, and revenge
and redemption, and it's interesting to see how it's evolved
(25:05):
as I've continued to write it. UM. But that is
about what we have to say on forgiveness today. We
would love to hear from listeners any wisdom's truths or
just stories they have about forgiveness or not forgiveness UM.
And we have heard from some listeners already that we
would like to read here now. Marie wrote, I was
(25:28):
super excited when I saw you were doing spooky episodes
for October, especially the Female Monsters episode. I just want
to tell you about one of my favorite books, which
not only features a badass monster eating primordial goddess who
very often refers to herself as a monster as a protagonist,
but she's also got a female romantic interest. The book
is called The One Who Eats Monsters by Casey Matthews,
(25:50):
and it's incredible book. As a recently out lesbian, I've
been trying to consume as much lgbt Q plus fiction
as possible, mostly sci fi fantasy literature. Involving lesbians. I've
had to score are the internet and bookstores to get
my fixed, and I've noticed that there's definitely been an
increase in the amount of representation and fiction, especially among protagonists. Anyway,
I just want to tell you all about my favorite book.
I'd love it if you did an episode on queer
(26:11):
literature or badass lesbians in literature. We would love that too.
And one of the reasons I wanted to read this
is listeners. If you've got some examples, send them our away.
I definitely have some I could contribute as well. And
then we have a letter from Marissa, my friend Marissa'll
look at out you like that, but she wrote this
(26:34):
um and I responded like I do to any listener,
as if I didn't know her. So I hope you
enjoyed that, Mirissa. She wrote, I have to throw my
two cents in on my experience with the opioid crisis. First,
my background is a traveling ear nurse. At this point
in my career, I've worked in six different states Georgia, Massa, Tustats, California,
I'll ask the Colorado and Maine. As a medical professional
(26:56):
and the trenches of this opioid epidemic. I can assure
you this is truly a problem everywhere. However, there is
one e ER assignment that stands out. This community was
being devastated by heroin. Every night. We had at least
a handful of O d s overdoses. This was a
big seventy five bed e er. Narcan had to be
so readily available that there were internasal narcan rapid response
(27:19):
boxes installed on the walls and strategic locations all around
the e R. For instance, they had a box and
triage due to so many people being dropped off in
front with O d s not breathing. All of the police,
firefighters and e m s carried narcan and knew how
to use it. I would like to share a little
narcan knowledge with you. First, you must know what a
drug half life is, the time it takes the drug
(27:41):
concentration to reach less than the starting dose in the body.
I don't want to get too technical, but essentially heroin
works longer than the antidote Narcan nalaczone. Narcan brings them
out of their high fasts and many times these slumped
over lifeless O d s would reanimate rather violently and combatively.
It's hard to rationalize with an addict who's come violently
(28:01):
out of their high to stay there recommended four hours
after narcan. So essentially, I'm rying to let anyone out
there that has to administered narcan no to keep watching
your friend or loved one. The half life of narcan
is shorter than that of heroin, so essentially you can
be revived from the brink of an O D death,
But if you leave too soon or not watch can
get into the same situation again. The drug wave could
(28:24):
still crash over you and take you under, So continue
to watch someone for several hours after administering nar can. Also,
Narcan Nalockstone emergency kits are available at almost every pharmacy
without a prescription. If you're using, please have the safety
plan in place. Go to your nearest pharmacy and get
an emergency kit. Make sure those around you while you're
using no where the narcan is and how to use it.
(28:46):
Call nine one one if the person is not breathing.
Those that have allergy reactions carry eppens epinephrin. If you're using,
you should carry narcan. Safe practice is all I want
to preach. Keep everything clean and have a safety plan.
Enough people have died this epidemic. It is just joining families.
Please don't let it take your life. Wow, that's a
lot of good information that Yeah, I didn't know that either,
(29:08):
So thanks um Merissa for sharing fighting, Yeah, the good
fight as a nurse. Thank you so much for what
you're doing. Yeah, Um, and thanks for writing in, taking
the time and sharing that knowledge. And we would love
to hear from other listeners. Thanks to these too for
writing in. If you would like to write to us,
you can our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at
(29:30):
i heeart media dot com. You can also find us
on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or on Instagram at
stuff One never told You. Thanks as always to our
superproducer Andrew Howard. Yeah, and thanks to you for listening.
Steph owner told you the protection of I Heart Radios
how stuff works For more podcasts from Heart Radio is
our her radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
(29:52):
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