Internet Hate Machine with Bridget Todd

The US midterms have once again brought to the forefront the abuse women, especially Black women and women of color, face online and the consequences of dismissing it. Bridget Todd breaks down how the internet has been weaponized, what we can do about it, and her new podcast Internet Hate Machine.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
never told your production of I Heart Radio, and today
we are once again to thrilled to be joined by
the magnificent, wonderful bridget Todd. Thank you so much for

(00:26):
being here. Bridget Oh, I'm so excited and honored. Every
time I come, I feel like you all give me
the best intros. I just want to run you doing
that introduction in my earbuds all the time when I'm
having a bed day. Exactly well deserved. Yeah, because you
as always have a lot going on, and I'm very

(00:47):
very excited about what we're talking about today and about
the work you're doing around it, because, as we'll shout
out at the end, you are working on a new
podcast that is coming out soon. Correct, that is right
by the time folks here this it will be out. Um. Yeah,
it's it's a it's exciting. It's not the cheeriest topic,

(01:11):
but very important. But yes, new podcast coming soon. Yes, Yes,
And I love the topic you brought because it's such
it exemplifies so much why this new podcast, which is
called Internet Hate Machine name, thank you. I have to
you can see how out of practice I am for
doing promo. I didn't even say the name of a podcast. Yes,
Internet Hate Machine. I wish I could take credit for

(01:33):
that title, but it is a production of Sophie and
Robert Evans over at cool Zone Media, who are my
partners in this, and they're phenomenal. And when I was
like going off the rails on on how I'm like,
we should be talking about the Internet and blah blah blah,
Robert Evans is like, it's a real Internet Hate Machine
and I was like, oh my god. Perfect. So it

(01:54):
was given us like nine inch nails vibes, all of that. Yes,
I wish I could take credit for that title, but
it's all them. Yeah. Yeah, it's excellent and very well needed.
And I think that good points will be throughout this
episode of why it is so needed. And also before
we just dive into it, we like to check in
with you. How are you doing? We got some cat

(02:16):
updates which were great before we start recording, which is like,
how are you bridget Oh, I appreciate being asked. I'm good.
I am. This is a weird a weird time because
we're just a few days out from the mid term
elections and so I'm working in my capacity with the genders,
this group Ultraviolet on mid term election stuff, which is

(02:37):
been a lot, I guess, but yeah, it's it's things
are good, busy, happy, How how are you too? I'm
always like, oh, I think I'm I'm okay, I'm good.
I'm nervous about the mid term elections, which I know
we're going to talk about a lot. I love Halloween,
so I'm trying to get into Halloween. But I feel

(03:00):
like I've been so busy in October that I kind
of missed all of the stuff I normally do. So
now I'm trying to cram it in really quickly, and
I don't like that feeling like I think it'll work
out fine, it'll be great, um, but I don't like
this all of a sudden, like, oh my gosh, I
haven't done all of my traditional Halloween things. Uh. So

(03:21):
I guess stressed, which is normally an answer I would give.
Stress and tired is about where I am, but trying
to make the best of it. Yeah see, I'm trying
to see. These are the type of questions when you're like,
do I am I honest? Or do I just try
to get past? If you feel comfortable it's whenever I

(03:42):
ask how are you, I don't want you to be
like fine and move on. I want the real answer
if you're giving it, Oh yeah, absolutely, you know, like
when it comes to holidays, and even though I think
we talked about this recently, Annie, in which I'm like,
I do like Halloween. I really do like the idea
of it, in a spoon it of it. But when
it comes to holidays and the holidays as is approaching,

(04:03):
I go into anxiety overload, slash uh, a little bit
of holiday seasonal depression. All of that just adds in.
So a part of me right now is like heart
is racing and trying to think of how to answer
this question and not breathe the entire showdown, as well
as the fact I know that everything is okay, everything

(04:24):
is okay, but just prepping, like and you're as you
we're going to talk about there's so much going on
in in society and there's so much on the line,
and it has been and I feel like, you know,
when we talk about the seventies and the nineties and
how the New Revelation Lucians and all of the changes
and feminism in itself had taken turns like big things

(04:45):
had happened to make you feel like, Oh God, is
the end of the world. And if this doesn't go
this way, we're all you know what I mean. So
it's kind of like in this moment of like, Okay,
we need to fix it. So what do I do
to fix it? Oh, I can't do anything. I quit.
I'm gonna go to bed. Let's go to that level.
So that's where I am. That is the worst answer
to give, And I'm sorry because I completely feel you.

(05:08):
First of all, I don't know if I've said this
on the show. I hate the holidays. I like Halloween.
I feel like Halloween is I enjoy Halloween. I look
forward to Halloween all of the other holidays that come after.
I'm like, oh god, we'll be doing this. It's just
so much obligation and so much work, and everyone is stressed.
And I feel like, pretty much universally, everybody would rather

(05:31):
just like not do it every every year, and like,
wouldn't it be what if we all just agreed to
like skip this here. I definitely definitely feel you. Oh.
I do have to ask are you dressing up for Halloween?
I was going to ask the both of you, I
am dressing up the costume that I have. It's a
little bit niche Have either of you seen the nineties

(05:53):
remake of Romeo and Juliet with the Boss Lehmann remake? Yes?
Do you remember Romeo's and I think it's his cousin
Marcrucio who has So do you remember the scene when
they go to a costume party and they all dressed
up and Marcrucio is like a seventies like disco queen
and there's like a little montage where he sings and

(06:15):
dances to the song Young Hearts Run Free. So I'm
going I love costume within a costume, So I am
going as Marcrucio from that specific scene. Oh, we're talking
about the Leonardo DiCaprio of course. Okay, okay, okay, yes,
I have seen it. Silly man, I feel like I
don't know what's going on. I've seen something like this.

(06:39):
Samantha hasn't look look this has happened to me. So
future reference like cool Zone media. I was on Behind
the Bastard and they kept naming off these cool movies
that I'm supposed to I'm like, no, I've never seen that. No,
I've never seen that. I'm like, this is bad, nothing,
very out of touch. I'm not surprised, but I have
seen this one. Yeah, but that's at an amazing costume

(07:01):
and I'm so excited to see the pictures. Yeah, what
are what are you too going as you're dressing up? Yeah?
I love dressing up. I love a costume. I probably
during the pandemic more more costumes and like quote real clothes.
I love it. I do have a if you haven't
seen it on Instagram, I have a disco Luke Skywalker
outfit that is phenomenal and it is like a costume
within a costume. It's very very niche, but very beautiful.

(07:27):
I think so I might do that, but that's kind
of a whole thing. Like if I show up in that,
I'm like elevating things and I'm just I'm going to
say it, I'm elevating things. So I also have a
bunch of Luke Skywalker costumes I could do, and I
want to do my one. But I also got a
Taylor Swift outfit, so I might do that one. Who

(07:48):
knows Taylor Swift, like Luke Skywalker, Taylor Swift or just
Taylor Swift. I could combine them your I actually did
think about it. I did think about it because that
is a popular fan fiction trope, so I could do it.
But we'll see. Well, I I'm gonna make like a

(08:09):
game day decision. I think I'm feeling and I just
went to a Stranger Things thing and I went and
I killed it. This guy came up to me and
he was like, I mean, I'm sure he's paid to
say it, but he was like, nice haties outfit. You
hate to say it. That's what he worked there, he works,

(08:31):
so I'm sure he was probably like compliment people I
say came in costumes. They're good, They're pretty good. Thank you. Yeah,
because you had a whole crew, your original Delonaga friends
and then Ramsey, the executive producer friend Ramsey, y'all all
dressed up was Ray. Ramsey did like the classic eighties

(08:57):
band T shirt, jean jacket, and like he had really
good eighties shoes because that's what I struggled the most
with with the shoes. But yeah, I'm glad because I
was going to wear an A C. D C shirt
and I thought Ramsey is going to do the band
the eighties ban shirts. I won't do it. And he
did anyway. Yeah, y'all all look good several Like I

(09:18):
was like, they're already ahead of the game, looking like
they're from the eighties and loved it. Yeah I am again.
This is one of those things that I'm like, oh
my god, because I don't do well with costumes, so
I just give in and buy the Target onesies. That
is some kind of animals, so I can be both
warm and lazy. So, uh, we have a friend who
was doing a ghost ship themed party, So I am

(09:42):
going to dress up as a shark and I'm hoping
that my partner will dress up as a dead uh
like cruise ship person that I've been eating on. I
love that there's a story. Yeah right, that's the best way.
I'm like, I'll tell you about how good dark costume.
Even though it's not, I love it. I think that's great. Yeah,

(10:05):
a costume with a backstory of like, well, I'm feasting
on this person. You see love in my cute little
Target onesie. It's fine. I think that's warm. I hope. Yes,
I'm hoping to see pictures of all of these things.

(10:34):
I love Halloween, but one thing that does always come
with Halloween, like every couple of years. Is this tension
around voting? Is this tension that the elections are coming up?
So it's always like I'm trying to not think about it. Um,
is there anything spook here? Yes? Yes, And as we've
hinted at, that's what we're going to be talking about

(10:54):
a lot in here. Um and uh, Georgia, it's been
an intense mid term election for us. So yeah, yeah,
I guess let's just let's just break down some of
the things that are going on in these mid terms. Yes,

(11:16):
so we're as when we're recording this. I don't know
how long it will be out when folks here it,
but um, we are ten days out from the election
while we're recording this. And I mean, I it sounds
like you kind of feel like I do, where particularly
around mid terms, it just makes me queazy because I
know that GEO TV is so different when it's not

(11:38):
a presidential election, Like people, it's harder to get people excited,
and especially when I know there's so much on the line.
You know, you mentioned Georgia, that's an important race. A
lot is happening, a lot it's hinging on people actually
coming out, and so it's something that I just always
feel kind of like queezy about it. And for me,

(11:59):
I always kind of having worked in politics for most
of my adult life or like politics adjacent, I always
kind of feel me about elections because I'm not super
invested in electoral power, like I think that there's other
ways to build power. And then around like ten days out,
I'm like, oh my god, I need to like start tootving,
I need to start like calling everyone. And it's like

(12:21):
it's like something happens, and so I'm sort of waiting
for that transformation to happen. And it sounds like you
two are feelings sort of similarly around the elections this
time around. Yeah. So for me, I uh recently was
coming home from a trip with my mother and she
drove me past where I vote, my polling place, and

(12:43):
it was the first day of early voting in Georgia
and it was packed out, Like I was like, oh
my god, what is happening? And then I looked it
up an early voting was happening, and I was so
it's very heartening to see that many people turn out
for a midterm. And I waited a couple of day
and when I went back, it was still crowded. And
people were excited, there were people filming. Everyone was really

(13:07):
warm and nice, like, oh, I'm so glad you came
out to vote, which was it was a pleasant experience
for me, but it was kind of like overshadowed the
whole thing. Was you know, there has been these crackdowns
on voting rights and why are so many people coming
out so early? Which I think is great, but it

(13:27):
was just kind of overhanging the whole thing. And also
because it is a very divisive race, senatorial race specifically
in Georgia. I don't know, it was it was one
of those things where I was like, I've I've been
to mid terms before, like nobody was there and I
walked past that area all the time, and so I
see it and I would never see a line, And

(13:49):
now like every day when I walk past it, there's
a line. So that's nice, but I'm still like, there,
you just can't shake all of the kind of negative
things that might be behind why that is, even though
I'm happy to see it, if that makes sense, right absolutely,
Like as right now, we have the highest early voter

(14:10):
turnout in our state that we've ever had, beating last
presidential election. So it's amazing to see that things are happening,
and we know that that's great indication of things to come. Again. Yes,
we have had a huge upsurge in UM voter suppression
laws in the last five years. Actually has always been
let's just be honest, but it's seemingly getting worse and worse,

(14:32):
and we know, uh, the way they have redistricted everything,
and it's very very shady. Although you know, our current
governor was the secretary of state who controlled his own election,
which says a lot in itself, UM, And that's a
big point of contention here, as well as the fact
that apparently uh Rafflesburger, that's our current secretary of State UM,
who actually stood up to Trump at one point in

(14:54):
time and got too much credit in my opinion, UM
for what he did. But it's hired for staffer of
Trump for these elections. So there's a lot of questionable
things happening. So we have a lot of concerns and
a lot of hope. Is such a mixed bag, as
Annie was saying, of what is happening here, we're seeing
what's happening because the governor's race is a pretty big deal,

(15:15):
as the overturning of Roe v. Wade hasn't made it
a huge deal, as we do have a six week
ban in um Georgia currently, and then there's just talk
about the fact that they're going to punish um those
who do have abortions as uh, murder, possibly charging them
with murder, with the fact that they're doing this whole
like you know, unborn fetis law and protecting of them

(15:35):
as as like crediting them as a citizen type of
conversation which we know is trickery and is leading way
to a lot of imprisonment and unfair treatment. And we
know this is completely targeted at marginalized individuals in our state.
So there's a lot of concerns there, so much that
feels like it's being really weighty here right now, and

(15:55):
it does. It feels like it is life or death
for so many of us. And I'll get I'm being
very local on this moment because this is kind of
where we are, and Annie and I obviously have to
concentrate so hard in these conversations. So there is this
level of doom, which I'm wonderful at conversation bringing up

(16:16):
all the time. Apparently there's this fear and level of
doom in this election that feels too heavy. At the
same time, we are the butt of jokes with our
current senator race, and it's it's it's really like you
want you you have to laugh, but want to cry,
as well as why why just but why? Yeah? Oh

(16:36):
my gosh. I if you got if you all get
me started on a hurt for Walker, I will never
I will never stop talking. Um, So I'm not going
to comment on that. Boy I want to, but truly,
if you got me going, I would never stop. I
will just say that all of that is really valid.

(16:59):
You know. I think this feeling of it's great to
see people voting, but that like unease of life, but
what does that mean for everyone? I think that's really valid.
And just the feeling of knowing how much is on
the line, what is at stake this time around. I
think that that's I hate to say it, I think
as our elections become more and more contentious, and as

(17:22):
things become more and more polarized, I think that's going
to be a common sentiment. And you know, something that
kind of speaks to that is the fact that there
are more women running for statewide offices than ever before,
which you know, I think is should be good news.
Marks a record high for women running for gubernatorial and
senate races. UM. There's about sixty five women running for

(17:44):
governors races across the country in the cycle. UM. I
should say it is not all lefties. UM. There are
more Republicans than Democrats making those bids. This is all
according to data from the Center for American Women in Politics,
and I it's true. It's like I when there are
long lines at polling places, I'm like, oh, that's great,
like democracy and action. And that's definitely preferable to people

(18:10):
having elections not go their way and then trying to
force them to go their way via violent behavior like
we saw on January sits and so things feel charged.
I guess I'll put it that way. And women are
poised to make gains in state white contests, but they
remain underrepresented in key legislatures around the country. And it's
also true for black women. We're seeing more black women

(18:33):
and more women of color running for local office. Black
women have set record numbers for candidates and cubernatorial, Senate
and House races. It's the cycle, UM. And there's a
lot of Latina and Hispanic cubernatorial and US House Senate candidates,
and a record number of Asian and Pacific Islander women
who are running for governor, and so I as fraught
as that can be, I think it's overall good, you know,

(18:54):
not just because representation matters, which it does, but also
I think that anything that gets us closer to a
presentative democracy, one where there's people who actually have the
lived experience of the people that they are governing, is
a good thing. And so like that's one kind of
silver lining I guess is that particularly when I think

(19:14):
about issues like abortion like you were talking about, Sam,
I don't have any hard numbers for this, I would
suspect that women are motivated to run for office because
those issues have taken such a national stage recently. I
wish I could say that it's all women who you know,
want to protect abortion access. I wish I could say

(19:36):
that if you were a woman, that was part of
your platform, but that would not be correct. Yeah, and
that's one thing that is very overwhelming right now in Georgia,
and I'm sure in a lot of places, but are
political ads are intense um and hard to escape. But yeah,

(19:57):
so it's it's kind of like what I was saying.
We have these positives. We have more women running, we
have more people of color running, we have more Black
women running. But that doesn't come without these realities that
you have spoke about a lot on this show that
often get kind of swept aside and not talked about,

(20:18):
even though they're so important and they are impacting our
political landscape exactly. And so I think it is so
great when we support women, especially black women and women
of color, to run for office, and it just generally
be involved in civic life through things like working as
election workers or becoming vocal advocates or activists on an issue.

(20:41):
But it is imperative that that support be grounded in
the reality of what we know these women will face
when they find themselves in those situations that we, you know,
championed them to to hold. Right, so we are on
the left, we're very fond of saying things like trust
black women, support black women. That is very true. But
we can't just you know, advocate for black women to

(21:05):
get into these positions. We have to be honest about
what they will face when they get there, and then
really do the intentional work of creating the conditions for
them to have an equal playing field to make sure
that they will thrive in those positions, because it's one
thing to be like, oh, yes, put black women in
leadership positions, but then are you going to support them
when they face the attacks that we know they are

(21:26):
going to face? You know, for instance, I was super
excited when President Biden said that he was going to
pick black women to be the vice president um and
also nominated black women to be a Supreme Court justice.
But I also know that that means that those black
women would certainly face heightened attacks that their white male
counterparts just would not have to face. And so I

(21:48):
was then a little bit disappointed to see that the
White House didn't really meaningfully deal with this reality, right,
Like I wondered, like, are they setting black women up
to deal with the harassment and attack acts that we
know are going to be like racialized and gendered, not
attacks based on their records or their merits or their actions,
but attacks on their identity who they are. So when

(22:09):
these attacks happened, which we saw with both Harris and
Justice Jackson, the White House didn't really acknowledge them. And
of course the women themselves can't really talk openly about them.
So we all just kind of saw it happened, and
nobody was at the very least talking honestly about it,
let alone working to create the conditions to combat it, right,

(22:30):
And that's just such a huge saying of you know,
either it's a drade on you because you're having to
deal with these attacks, or you just kind of distance
yourself from social media. And then that in itself people
can interpret in a variety of ways that are probably
not good. Um. And then people's especially younger people, seeing

(22:51):
that like that. There's just so many unhealthy things about
what that says. Um that we're accepting um as as
something that's just like part for the course. That's how
it is. And the very unfortunate thing is this is
not just like one time or just a few times.

(23:12):
It's like all over the place, exactly. It's not an
isolated thing, I'm sorry to say. According to a report
from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue called Public Figures of
Public Rage, candidates abuse on social media. Satistically speaking, black
women and women of color are more likely to face
racialize gender to tacks than their white male counterparts. On
The study, which you can find online is super interesting.

(23:33):
They found the abusive messages on social media accounted for
fift of those directed at every female lawmaker that they analyze,
compared to around five to ten percent when they looked
at male candidates. A few of their keep findings or
that women of color are particularly likely to be targeted online.
Male politicians of color are not more vulnerable than their
white counterparts. They are attacked at the same rate. An

(23:55):
abuse towards women was more likely to be about gender
than the abuse tar targeting men, So abuse targeting men
was usually focused on their political stances um while the
messages directed that women were more likely to be about
their appearance or their general competence. Interestingly enough, female democrats
received ten times more abusive comments and their male counterparts

(24:16):
on Facebook, and Republican women received twice as many abusive
messages as Republican men. So it's a bipartisan issue. It's
an issue impacting all women and women of color. You know,
it's not just women on the left who face it.
It's all of us, right. And one of the things
one of the points you make when you come on
here all the time, which I think is very important

(24:37):
and I love, um, is that a lot of times
people can distance like, oh, that's online, that's not real life. Um,
but that is not at all the case, right. Yes,
So I'm sure people are like sick of me saying
this because I've you know, say it's pretty from my
rooftops every time I'm I am given a platform. But
I think we have this misconception that when we talk
about online harassment and abuse, we're talking about online shoes.

(25:00):
And the research could not be clearer that even though
these attacks may start online, they do not always stay online.
And a great example that we're seeing right now is
representative Jaia Paul, a man started by sending her violent
emails and threatening messages online, showed up as side of
her house with a gun. I just had to take
a minute from recording this podcast to quick send on

(25:21):
a statement about the husband of Nancy Pelosi, someone who
had a just today while we're recording this, someone with
a history of violent you know, rhetoric on social media,
broke into Nancy Pelosi's house and attacked her husband with
a hammer when he found that she was not there.
And so it's so important and deeply imperative that if

(25:41):
we're going to take this kind of violence seriously that
when someone reports violent threats or violent attacks online, we
then take it seriously if we're going to prevent real
world violence from happening, because the two our link. It's
just that the research could not be clear time and
time again. When somebody is the perpetrator of a mass
shooting or an incident of mass violence, you follow the

(26:03):
paper trail and oh, they had an online history where
they were threatening women or being aggressive or hostile towards
the women in their life online. And so we cannot
get a handle meaningfully on the abuse of women if
we do not take it seriously when it happens online,
it's just not going to happen. And so real world
violence is connected to online violence and we need to

(26:24):
deal with it as such. But unfortunately that has not
been the case for so long. People have been so
quick to belittle it when a woman speaks off about
what she's facing online, particularly if that woman is black
or a woman of color. We've talked about so much

(26:51):
harassment and and I know, one of the biggest platforms
and I know we're gonna talk about this later and
I'm already a dressing it. Twitter has been one of
the bigest perpetrators in allowing this type of abuse and
not actually following through in the policies they've they've already
placed themselves to try to supposedly stop these types of harassments,

(27:11):
and then knowing that there's even ways to actually find
specific people to target, like when you were talking about
the bots and then just having uh, pretty much hate
farms created on these types of platforms. I can't imagine
what it does too. Yeah, it's happening to those who
are on higher profile levels. I guess it's the best
way to say it. But to be fair, like I
am petrified as someone who kind of it's it's supposed

(27:33):
to be. I don't know the world not influencing. I
don't know what a public person. We'll say this, We'll
say public person. My name is out there, like I'm
petrified with my five followers, and I'm going to say
something wrong and or they're gonna hear someone's gonna hear
something that we do take it and say that means
we can go after her, and wondering what that would
be like because I've seen normal people, regular people getting

(27:56):
attacked like all they said was this one thing and
or just agreed with something and people are going after them.
Oh my god, I mean absolutely. And we're also I
would be remiss to not mention that we're having this
conversation on day one of Elon Musk at the helm
at Twitter, and people keep asking like, oh, what do
you think about that? What do you think about that?
And I can tell you that the people who are extremists,

(28:21):
bad actors, people who are interested in, you know, perpetrating
these the kinds of harassment campaigns that you were just
talking about, Sam, those people are rejoicing right Like just today,
I already saw a bunch of tweets where someone was like,
I'm gonna use the end slor as many times as
I can because it's okay now on Twitter. These are

(28:42):
the kind of people that Elon Musk is welcoming back
to the platform. These are the kind of people who
are rejoicing because Elon Musk is at the helm of
our one of our largest and most important communications platforms.
And so you're exactly right that I think we started
this conversation talking about elected officials people running for office.
More and more we are seeing that trickle down to

(29:02):
just regular people. And I want to be clear, So
it is it is. We have seen this kind of
online behavior keep marginalized people from doing things like running
for office, but also from doing things like just serving
their community as election officials are poll workers from speaking
up about their opinions at school board meetings. Because all
people who just generally engage in public civic life, they

(29:26):
know that in this climate, they are setting themselves up
to be attacked. And we're not talking about people like
it's bad enough that that's happening to women running for office,
but when it's happening to people who are just you know,
everyday people. It's not like they have a security detail.
It's not like they have money to protect themselves in
the way they would need to. And just a few
examples that we're seeing recently, educators are being attacked by

(29:48):
extremists for being suspected of being LGBTQ or for teaching
something that these people do not like um and these
campaigns have been incredibly effective. One of them happened right
in Georgia. Cecily A Lewis. She's a Georgia educator who
was basically run out of town by a group of
parents organizing on Facebook because they suspected her of she

(30:09):
had not even gotten the job yet, and they already
suspected her of planning to teach critical race theory. Never
mind the fact that she wasn't that that's just complete conjecture. Uh.
It just happened to be that she is a black woman,
and so they were able to say, like, oh, she's
gonna teach her kids critical race theory, even though she
wasn't even an in classroom teacher. She was just an administrator, right,

(30:30):
And so she had to leave town. And when she
left town, these people followed her to the next town
that she went to and ran her out of that
town too. And so these campaigns are incredibly effective. And
another good example is looking at election workers, eight percent
of whom are women. Election workers are being basically attacked

(30:51):
and accused of things like vote tampering if elections don't
go the way that these extremists want them to. And
again another example from Georgia is if you watched the
January six Comman and you might have seen the story
of Ruby and Shafe Freeman. That story broke my heart.
A black mother and her daughter with a long storied
history of serving their community as election and poll workers,
like the black women in your town, who if you

(31:14):
have any questions about voting, and they got you. If
you need help voting, they got you. Like people who
are called to serve their community and have been for
a very long time. Well, the thanks they got for
that was being horribly attacked. When Trump lost Georgia in
the election, he and Rudy Giuliani and his other cronies baselessly,
repeatedly and publicly accused these women of vote hampering. They

(31:38):
had videos of them where they said that they were
moving votes, which never happened. Um. And this led to
really terrible, frightening attacks on them where people showed up
at their home and the home of their elderly grandmother
and they had to flee for their own safety. And again,
these are regular people, not people that have a security
detail or people that maybe have the money to scrub

(32:00):
their personal information from the Internet the way that you
would need to if you were facing these kinds of attacks. Yeah.
Actually I had volunteered one time to be a just
to oversee as people are lining up, make sure everything
is okay. Nothing nothing, I don't I don't talk to anybody.
I just make sure everybody's has the right to vote.
Almost being harassed all these things. That's all I did.
But the entire group of people who were actually volunteering,

(32:23):
handing out the pencils, giving instructions, checking I das and
such were all black women, every single one of them.
And just this last voting when I did my whole
uh recinct was all black, but was sweet due. They
were so great and we had the forty five minute
line and they were so on top of it trying
to make sure to get everybody through seamlessly, and they

(32:44):
did a beautiful job. And they were there like this
was the I think the fifth day of the week
that they were doing this, and they'd been there and
they were not complaining, they were smiling, making conversation, and
it's like people like them who are making this happen
and going on so well and so perfectly, as if
there's nothing happening. Literally, the line was smoothly going and
I loved everything about that. And I cannot imagine just

(33:06):
because they're there, they exist, and they decided to help
their community, they're going to be targeted and being yelled at,
and honestly, um, I know those conversations of people really
being scared about being physically harmed because people are pushing
and trying to do so many intimidation tactics to accuse
and blame somebody for the loss of a bully. Yeah,

(33:28):
this is just my opinion. Black women are the backbone
of our democracy. They are like older black woman from
the South. They are the grease of the wheels of
dermal Like I feel like when I go into a
place like that and I'm like, oh, of course there's
like hell of black women with clipboards in here like that,
like that's the vibe. And you know, and we know

(33:49):
that eight percent of election workers and poll workers are women.
I would be be willing to bet at a bunch
of those are black women, especially in the South. And
I think that what we're really doing, it's allowing for
people who are the most marginalized in our society. We
are allowing for them to put themselves out there to
support our communities and our democracy in these ways for

(34:10):
not a lot of money. But mind you, because a
lot of these women are volunteers, are very low paid,
and we're saying you also need to absorb these attacks
to do so, and we're basically setting these women up
to be attacked and giving them no and not even
really talking about it when they are right, and so
I think it's my experience with voting has been the
exact same that these are the women who are at

(34:33):
this point, I would say, risking a lot to make
sure that our democratic process is able to take place.
And honestly, this is probably not surprising to anybody, because
these kinds of attacks are meant exactly to keep those
kinds of people from doing what they do. It is
meant to keep them from doing their work of keeping
the wheels of democracy going. It is meant to keep

(34:54):
them from being engaged in civic life, because who would
want to sort of their community by working as a
poll worker or running for off is if it means
that them and their families are going to be facing
these kinds of attacks. So, probably not surprising to anybody
that here we are ten days out from an election
and the United States is facing a national shortage on
poll workers. Kim Wyman, who is the senior Election security

(35:16):
lead at the Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency or the
c I s A, said that because of a rise
in threats against election workers, one in three election workers
and poll workers have quit their positions over fears for
their safety, and state officials are having a hard time
hiring folks for these positions because again, who would want
to do these like low paid duties. It means like, oh, you,

(35:38):
you and your family might have to flee for your safety.
This is because you wanted to do this position helping
your community in this way. I can understand why people
are not lining up to do this work. But you
can see how big those consequences are for our democracy
and for all of us when we can't even get
people to do enact the labor that needs to happen

(35:59):
for our democratic process to exist. Yeah. Um, And as
you've mentioned, like we've arrived at not a great space
in our democracy, but we've had a long history, Like
we had plenty of signs of of where we could
have listened to, especially black women, and we didn't. And
this is where we are. So can you expand on

(36:21):
that a little bit? Yes, I believe that this entire thing,
all of these fats to our democracy, is really connected
and goes back to not listening to black women because
I talked about the fact that you know, these threats
that start online become real role threats. Black women have
been saying this for a very long time, and I
feel that nobody has really listened. You know, some of

(36:44):
the first people to really raise the alarm about the
role that online harassment plays in our landscape. We're black women.
These womy have been saying this for years, and people
and by that I mean people with power, that people
with power to do something pretty much ignored them. And
so I would then argue that not sitting to black
women has consequences for all of us. A couple of examples. Um,

(37:04):
most people listening are probably familiar with gamer Gate. If
you are not familiar with gamer Gate, I am jealous.
But essentially it was like, if that's something that you were, like,
I've never heard of that before, I want to live
the life that you are living, right, But essentially, gamer
Gate was when a bunch of men, uh pretty much
attacked and harassed mostly women under the guys of being

(37:28):
big mad about scare quotes ethics in gaming journalism, and
it got lots of attention, rightly, and most people like
probably remember it, but those same people probably don't know
that the same folks responsible for gamer Gate, we're using
those exact same tactics against black women. Before gamer Gate,
women like Adria Richards, who was targeted for racist raspen

(37:50):
online after she tweeted about a crass joke about dongoles
that she overheard at a work event. Or women like
Shafika Hudson, who in actually reported and called bad actors
who were using dake accounts to impersonate black women to
destabilize Internet communities. You know, these are women who spoke
up about what they were facing on the Internet, and
they were basically ignored. And I wonder what might have

(38:12):
happened if somebody with power had actually listened to them
and taken some action. For one, I believe gamer Gate
might have gone down very differently if when people use
these tactics against black women somebody was like, hey, wait,
this is bad. We should not allow our platform to
be used this way and made some changes. Or consider
the fact that six years after Saphia Hudson reported people

(38:33):
impersonating black folks on Twitter to cause chaos, white supremacist
groups use that very same tactic during the racial uprisings
to make it seem like Black Lives Matter activists were
using the Internet to call for people to like loot
homes and cause violence, and Twitter actually confirmed this. Twitter
was like, oh, yeah, we can confirm now that some

(38:54):
of the accounts who were using our platform to call
for people to like loot and cause violence during these protests,
those were actually white supremacists pretending to be Black Lives
Matter activists. And so you know, they didn't actually explain
why they did all to prevent this from being a
tactic on a larger scale down the line, if they

(39:14):
knew it was a vulnerability of their platform. And when
we zoom out even further, these are the same tactics
that a Senate inquiry in would confirm we're used to
try to destabilize election, right, And so if when these
black women reported what they were seeing online, if somebody
had done something, I wonder, would bad actors who were

(39:36):
trying to use this tactic to destabilize our elections and
destabilize our online communities and truly cause violence and chaos,
would that have been a a viable tactic? I would
argue maybe not. But again, these are the consequences when
folks don't listen to black women and don't take them
seriously when they speak up about what they're experiencing online. Yeah,

(39:57):
and one of the things that annoys me the most
is when this whole idea of like that's just sort
of the price of the game. Accept it, like you know,
if you're tough, and sometimes people will try to paint
it in a very nice brush, like you're strong enough
to make it against all this harassment, all this stuff online,
You're you're so tough. But really, we shouldn't be accepting

(40:18):
this or expecting this in the first place. And that
is one of the things the points you're making here
is that we've normalized it to the point where I've
even heard conversations will people where people will paint it
as like, oh, it's a good thing, she's tough, she
can survive in this environment. It shouldn't be that way, right, Yeah.
I don't want to have a political landscape where you

(40:41):
have to be able to publicly endure and withstand attacks
on you and your family, because when it's women, the
research is super clear that it's never just the woman
who was attacked. It's her, her mom, her dad, her kids,
her partner, her community, her neighbors, her ends. I don't

(41:02):
want a political climate that says that women have to
be able to endure these kinds of attacks on their
safety and and watch their families deal with it as well. Uh,
if they want to be elected officials, if they want
to serve their community, if they want to just take
place in civic life, that's not the kind of climate
I want. We should not that's not acceptable. That's not

(41:23):
a norm that we should be okay with, you know.
And I keep thinking about how the algorithm has changed.
And I was talking to Annie about our own algorithm,

(41:45):
and because we are so afraid of social media, we
stay away from it, and therefore anytime we do put
anything up, it's ignored because we don't have a lot
of content out there. And I still think about how Twitter,
and I know, for all uh references, it's just that
we talk about black Twitter. It is the community coming
together and having like their own space and talking. And
because they've kind of become grouped and has has become

(42:09):
a point where if you don't already uh follow some
of these people, or if you're not actually paying attention,
it just goes away from your feed. Kind of how
TikTok is doing that. We're just making it harder and
harder to actually see what is happening and what the
truth really is going down. I have to question, like
so is the algorithm really a good thing in that
it does this tour where you're in your own little

(42:31):
hole and where it's putting pocketing black women who are like, Hey,
this bad thing is happening. We're trying to tell y'all,
But the only people who are seeing those are the
people who already know. And it's like, what the hell,
how do we change that? Yeah? What an insightful question.
So this is just my opinion. This is like just
representing myself. I don't think that it is good they

(42:53):
have a platform like Twitter, especially be so tied to
an algorithm. I don't think it's good for all the
reasons that you just said. People they're there, voices can
be siloed, you can feel like you're talking to the
choir of people who already agree with you, and you know,
I know what you're saying. And I also think that

(43:13):
I don't think that platforms have shown that they're able
to be responsible with algorithmically generated content right now. Algorithms
are just it's just a fact. They are biased towards
content that is untrue. False information travels on Twitter, specifically
much faster and much further than correct information. They amplify
content that is extremist. And I don't mean like extremists,

(43:36):
like capital E extremists, although that as well, but like
content that is, you know, more extreme than not extreme.
So if I'm saying, like I ate a piece of
toast today and it was burnt, I hate all toast
rather than like, oh, this piece of toast was burnt.
When some lose them, they're going to amplify the one

(43:57):
that sounds more extreme, because that's that's what gets more eyeballs. Um.
They amplify content that is polarizing, They amplify content that
is loud and aggressive. And I don't think that platforms
can be trusted to be run algorithmically because they are
going to make us all more extreme, more polarized, less informed,
and less thoughtful. I would love to see an algorithmic

(44:17):
model that is amplifies content that is thoughtful, honest, accurate, timely, whatever,
but I have not seen it yet, And so I
think platforms have shown that they can't be trusted to
to work with algorithmic models because they're just going to
amplify stuff that makes us all worse off. Right, Yeah,
And I honestly just being new to TikTok and We've

(44:38):
talked about TikTok often um on the show, but it
also does the same thing with the f y P
or for you page, where it only amplifies what seems
to be UH most disturbing. I say that for my
own UH concept because there's so much out there that
the worst shadow banning and the idea that many of
these algorithms do this that there's an enough that people

(45:01):
can complain or make false allegations, and and their standard
of what they think is bullying and or racist is
not And apparently they have a pretty big threshold of
saying no, it's not right racists, we're good, um, even
though it's obviously super racist, in the fact that they
seem to keep working on that level in and allowing
for things that we know is I don't know, being threatened,

(45:24):
being called by a stereotype that I would consider racist,
but yet for so often that it's not that big
of a deal. They're not really threatening you, like, wait, yeah,
so we have to have a police report to actually
say that we're being threatened, and that seems to be
happening often in these platforms exactly. And this is when
I said I wasn't really a big fan of algorithmic platforms.
One of the reasons is because I think that we're

(45:47):
as humans, we are giving the responsibility of moderating platforms
more and more to algorithms or AI. And AI is
smart and good at lots of things, but there are
some things that you need a humans take on. And
so Sam, you know, you talked about how like oh,
I'm being called a racial slur or like I'm being
attacked in this way. Bad actors are so good at

(46:07):
using dog whistles or coded language or things to get
around AI or machine learning that is, like you know,
working as a content moderator, and they know how to
exploit those loopholes. And so I completely agree. Especially on TikTok,
I feel like they really need to make some changes
with how their platform is run if that platform is
going to be safer and more inclusive. Um. I think

(46:29):
it was the Washington Post recently that just did a
little experiment where if you don't follow a Washington Post
on TikTok, they have a really interesting TikTok channel. They
are doing a series on TikTok where they used all
these words that they were certain we're going to get
their TikTok suppressed. Um, so they they did a TikTok
where they said racism, black lives matter, disability, um, you know,

(46:54):
all these other words, because they were like if you,
if you use these words in your TikTok, they are
more likely to be suppressed. What they were doing an experiment,
and by golly, it worked, you know. And so it's
clear to me that platforms are not being run one
with a thoughtful, nuanced, sensitive human who is able to
understand nuance at the helm and to just not being

(47:15):
run in a way that amplifies good conversation, thoughtful conversation,
substitutive conversation, and does not amplify garbage, lies, extremism, hate,
racial slurs, all of that. Yeah, And on top of that,
you have again as you talk bad players who and
I've seen this a lot more on TikTok because again, um,
that person, but like in the conversations that they thinking

(47:38):
that they're doing something good and doing that extreme call
out in which they get people fired and canceled and
all of these things and go after people on just
one video. And don't get me wrong, a lot of
these I agree with that. These people who are saying
really nasty crap and being caught on camera, are caught
on their phone for saying these things should be called out,
that I should be repercussions. But has come to a

(47:59):
point that it's enter came it almost and I'm wondering
where this is gonna lead because it's a fairly new
thing out of the last um five years. And I
say that for the both the left and the right,
that it's like this is this is getting dangerously toxic.
Dangerously toxic. That's a whole different conversation. I know. No,
it's so funny that you bring this up because I
so I recorded the first episode of Internet Hate Machine

(48:19):
with Sophie earlier this week, and I haven't perhaps unpopular
opinion on this. When I first got on TikTok, specifically,
I followed a lot of creators who made content that
was like this guy is a racist and this is
where he works and I'm gonna call his employer and
get him fired. And I used to be like, yeah,
like fire that racist, Like really loved it. As I have,

(48:42):
I guess matured and matured along with the platform. As
cathartic as that as that is, I don't think that
that is an appropriate tactic. And I think that even
if I am in agreement like yeah, this racist shouldn't
be doing this, and they're definitely exceptions to this, I'm sure,
but in general, I just know how easy it is

(49:05):
for bad actors and extremists to weaponize that very same tactic. Right,
we're gonna coordinate and have all these people call this
person to get them fired because we didn't like what
they tweeted. I don't think that that is a tactic
that makes us smarter, that makes us better, that makes us,
you know, healthier as a society. So even when I
see it happening with someone who was sensibly I agree with,

(49:27):
shouldn't you know they deserve it? I feel like I
know how easily that is a tactic to be exploited
and weaponized by bad actors. And our first episode actually
deals with this woman, Aga Richards, who I was talking
about earlier, who was one of the early targets of that,
where she tweeted a picture of these two guys at
a tech conference who are making a crass joke that

(49:49):
she didn't like, and she got horribly mobbed, where they
coordinated on on sites like furchand to call her employer.
They threatened her employer, and rather than supporting her, her
employer fired her and was like, Okay, yeah, you guys
want her to be fired, she's fired. And I've just
seen time and time again that that tactic is so

(50:10):
easily gamified and weaponized and exploited by bad actors that
I don't think anybody should be engaged in it, right,
And that's that's the other conversation that it keeps going
into my head, is that the whole level of Docks saying,
and which is this kind of like again, this is
the entertainment level. And this is where it's getting really
disgusting to me that I'm like, Okay, we we have
used this as a form of entertainment to see if

(50:32):
people can be ruined. Yes, consequences should happen, but there's
this whole new level that that's entertainment now and that
needs to be a conversation. Like, the whole gist of
the entire conversation is it becomes a small thing that
becomes bigger and bigger and then normalized, and then it's
like we don't realize what we're doing in that we
have not only ruined people's life but probably a lot
of innocent people's lives and attached to that, and then

(50:55):
you see that, Okay, this has been happening, but these
platforms like TikTok, which is fair knew, are still allowing
it to happen. How is this not changing exactly? And
I think we have gotten to a place where it's
it's normalized as entertainment and it's it's not even I mean,
like we're talking about pretty serious things like women running
for office and being engaged in democratic and civic life.

(51:17):
Do you remember couch guy TikTok, the guy who everybody
was so convinced was cheating on his girlfriend and it
was caught on TikTok because his long distance girlfriend films
the TikTok of her surprising him and his he's not
reacting the way that maybe you might expect somebody to react,
and everybody was like overnight became a body language expert,

(51:38):
and like I saw people on television news. I saw
a segment where they had a quote body language expert
breaking down his body language. These are strangers, right, And
so I do think we've gotten to this place where
we are We've gotten really comfortable making complete like assumptions
about people we do not know, confidently going on on

(52:03):
big platforms and airing those assumptions, and because of the
way that algorithms work, those assumptions will get millions of
people to watch them and then reply with their own assumptions.
Because of the of the sort of riff and remix
culture of TikTok, then they'll say, well, actually, I think
he was cheating like this and not like that, Like
it's not it's not healthy, and it's not good for

(52:25):
our society. The couch guy was such a meme essentially,
but you know what, I've seen something similar to that
just recently on Twitter, and I have no opinion. I
Joseph was like, wow, okay, garden Lady, Yes, yes, garden Lady.
I was like, wow, that just what just happen. Yeah,
we did an episode of There Are No Girls on

(52:45):
the Internet about this, go ahead. So if you don't
know who garden Lady is, she is this woman who
has a garden, and she tweeted something along the lines
of life I start every morning with taking my coffee
out to my garden with my husband and talk for hours.
Never gets old. Love him. So the morning, the entire
internet was like boo, we hate it, we hate it. Boo. Tomato,

(53:10):
tomato tomato. Right, Like, it went from like you're being
ablest to be and you're being classes and there are
things I'm like, I don't know anything about this woman,
and then someone went into a deep dive into her
account and said, oh, she's an awful person. Keep attacking her.
And I was just like, what what just happened? Yeah?
And I so that that was so interesting to me,

(53:30):
and I feel like it's a great example of I
love social media and the Internet. I don't think millions
of people were meant to weigh in on the morning
routine of a stranger in this way, like I saw
the same thing. Or people were like, actually, she's anti
vax and it's like, well, I don't think the people
who are attacking her are attacking her because she they

(53:50):
knew that, like she maybe post. I mean, I don't
even I can't you know, confirm or deny that. But
I was like, I don't know that that's why people
are attacking her, and I you know, I saw probably
the wildest response to that tweet I saw was someone
being like, oh, don't you work and she was like
oh I, oh my own business, so I'm able to
have flexibility in the mornings. And then somebody else replied, oh,

(54:14):
so you're exploiting the labor of your employees and that's
why you're able to have these nice mornings terrible, and
she was like, I'm the sole employee of my small business.
And so just like layers and layers and layers of
assumed bulle about something they don't even know. But that's
the thing is, like it becomes this really really tempestuous
like grounds of like, Okay, her doing a noculous statement

(54:35):
about how she loved this moment with her husband has
made it. Some people have weaponized it against her, telling
her she's all these things, and you're like, what how
did we get here? Why are we here? And what
is this platform? Because like like what is this platform?
Like why am I being told that I need to

(54:55):
care about this stranger? Why why is it being surfaced
to me? What is going on that this is even
something that I am aware of, like the morning routine
of this person that I will probably never even meet. Yeah,
I feel like so many things. One of my big
concerns about social media and the internet now is you know,
like internet literacy context I feel like we've thrown contexts

(55:16):
out the window, but also just that kind of idea
where or this is a lighter example, but of this, Oh,
I've got to have an opinion, I've gotta have a
stance and I'm going to say something, and then you
like don't do any other research into it, and then
when you add in like misinformation and disinformation, it just

(55:36):
frightens me to be honest, Like, I keep seeing all
these stories about, oh, this image was fake, and I
haven't even seen the image in question, but I know
that a lot of people saw it and they believed it,
and like that it gets my heart running for same.
Oh my gosh. And I really resonate with your point
about having to have a take. I feel like so

(55:59):
the way social media functions, both the algorithmic nature of
social media platforms and the speed by which social media
platforms tend to move, I think it incentivizes people to
feel like they have to have a take and they
have to have it right away. In reality, it's okay
to not have a take. It's okay to to be like,
I don't really know anything about this, me putting my

(56:21):
opinion or my voice out there on an issue that
I don't know about is not going to be helpful.
It's not going to add to the conversation. I'll just listen, right.
I don't think that social media platforms incentivize just taking
me a step back, or even just taking a minute
to to figure out what you want to say. It's
like it has to be quick, has to be now,
you have to reply, get that engagement, and that doesn't
serve anybody. I don't think that social media platforms incentivize

(56:46):
us to be thoughtful or you know, our best there.
I think there was like, for instance, when the Queen died,
I don't really know anything about the monarchy. I don't
really know what I don't really I'm not invested in it.
And so I'm at someone that you would that you
need to hear from on it, right, Like I was like,
there are people who are very invested in this. Let

(57:06):
them have the spotlight of like saying what they want
to say. I think that it's okay to not weigh in,
it's okay to not have a hot take. I don't
think social media platforms incentivize or encourage us to just
listen sometimes. Yeah, and I think we've seen that seep
into our daily lives and our politics, because I just
see that with politicians all the time, and then that
muddies the whole conversation because if you have this I

(57:28):
don't know anything about this garden lady, but if you
have this whole conversation happening, it's distracting from the very
real context and information we have about politicians they're doing
these things. So I I think I know that this
podcast you have coming out is so needed, um, and

(57:49):
I'm so so excited to hear it. Um. If you
can tell us more about it, Yeah, I mean, I
feel like I've got y'all. Y'all got me work obviously,
So I think I think it does all relate. And
I think that what we're seeing now is these tried
and true tactics of online harassment becoming an animating and

(58:12):
normalized feature of our political landscape and discourse. And you know,
there's this phrase that black women are quote canaries in
the coal mine for online harms because first it happens
to us, and then it happens to everyone, and bad
actors are just continuing to use these same tactics they
were able to perfect on black women on others and
so I think that we need to have leadership, people

(58:35):
with power at you know, elected officials, policymakers, and tech
companies listening to black women so that we can actually
get a handle on this. And you know, as we
were sort of talking about, I think that our Internet
and our social media platforms have become so weaponized. You know,
it's nearly impossible to have a meaningful conversation or meaningful
discourse on our communication platforms because the lead yeters who

(59:00):
run those platforms have basically incentivized and amplified lies and
grifts and scams and extremism where we're polarized than ever,
and grifters know this and are basically running the show.
And I think if we're ever planning on getting a
handle on this, if we're ever planning on doing something
about this, the first step has to be talking honestly

(59:21):
about it. And so that's why I'm doing the podcast
with Cool Zone Media called Internet Hate Machine, uh. And
I really want to chart the history of online harassment
against women of color specifically, and how it has led
us to this current political and social movement. And so
I hope that folks will listen. It's something that I
think is really timely right now as we go into

(59:42):
mid terms. I think it will be timely for a
long time as we determine what we want our political
and social landscape to look like. And it's important. I'm
so excited because it definitely needs to be the bigger
part of the conversation as we look at what our
democracy looks like in the future, in the near future.
Let's let's a um but not just for the United

(01:00:02):
States but all around the world, because we're seeing similar
things happen on different timelines. And I feel like you're
going to be able to bring in such good perspective
and so showing the present, the past, and possibly the
future with all of this, So thank you and I'm
excited to listen, especially that first one. Yeah, please check
it out. Our trailer and episode zero are already live,
so you can go to Internet Hate Machine on wherever

(01:00:23):
you find your podcasts, Spotify, Apple Podcasts. You know how
to find your listen. This is a podcast, so you
know how to find podcast if you're listening to this
UM So episode zero is already live, but our first
official episode will drop on November second, so please check
it out. Yes, go subscribe, Please support it. Um, it's
amazing work. Can't wait to hear it. Where else can
the listeners find you, Bridget? Well, you can find me

(01:00:46):
on my weekly podcast about women in the Internet called
There Are No Girls on the Internet. Can definitely find
that if you're listening to this podcast, Um, that's not
going anywhere, so we can listen to them both. You
can find me on Instagram at Bridget Marian d C
or yes, I'm still gonna be on Twitter elon must
be damn. You can find me on You can find
me on Twitter at Bridget Murray. Yes, um, and is

(01:01:08):
always such a delight to have you, Bridget. Wishing everybody
you and everybody all the best as we enter into
this final stretch of the midterms. And also listeners, you
might have heard of cameo from Bridget's cat which was

(01:01:28):
we needed it annoyed with me even though she doesn't
have a job and like has everything and has treated
with my queen. I'm sure I would be like, oh
I have a job, yes, um, I cannot wait till
next time. Thank you so much again, Bridget. If you
would like to find us, you can You can email
us at Stuff Media Mom Stuff at iHeart Media You

(01:01:50):
can find us on Twitter, at most of podcast or
Instagram and stuff we never told you. Thanks as always
started sup producer Chris Duda, Thank you Christina, Thanks to
you for listening. Stuff to the production of I Heart
Radio for pdcast from My Heart Radio. You can check
out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. H