September 25, 2013 • 28 mins
Caroline and Cristen revisit the "manic pixie dream girl" trope in television and movies and explore whether the stock female character is disappearing from pop culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff mom never told you from House Top
works not common. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are revisiting a listener
favorite topic, which is the Manic Pixie dream Girl. Wait
for it, do you hear that? That's an entire audience groaning? Oh,
(00:27):
because we're no one likes the Manic Pixie dream Girl
because the character. I feel like people are just exhausted
by this woman, this this imaginary woman. Yeah, people are
a little bit wary of the MPDG. But I thought
that we could revisit it, or rather eulogize the Manic
Pixie dream Girl, even though I will say Fault TV
(00:49):
has started, which means that America's favorite Manic Pixie dream Girl,
Zoe d back on for a new season of New
girl Ie. One day, I might watch that. Oh, it's enjoyable, Okay,
it's fine. I'm I I don't know, I just you know,
I'm more watching other things. She has beautiful bangs, That's
what I've heard. So what about the death of the
(01:11):
Manic Pixie dream Girl. Well, yeah, she was declared dead.
I know she was having such a moment in two
thousand and twelve, her life was cut so short. And
when we did that podcast, we got so many emails
from people saying that they knew of the trope, they
had seen it, they knew real people who were doing this,
they knew Manic Pixie dream guys. And now April two
(01:34):
thousand thirteen, Monica Bartsial at The Week says, you know what, MPDG,
you need to retire. Yeah. She says that the whole
trope has devolved into what she calls laziness and sexism.
And she said, the first really negative bad sign about
this whole thing, this trend of referring to female characters
(01:56):
as Manic Pixie dream girls, is that Annie Hall was
included in the group. And that's like you just hear
glass shattering in your mind when you hear people referring
to her as that, because it has adopted such a
negative connotation, right, and people would take offense to a
character as beloved as Annie Hall being called little more
(02:17):
than just a vessel for Woody Allen's own personal development.
And then July twenty, New York Magazine's Kate Stoefel says,
you know what, not only is the MPDG retired, she
just did. The term is lust all meaning she did
so stow Feel points to the moment MPDG was over
(02:41):
for her, and she says the manic mixie dream girl
completed her life cycle when a male filmmaker, and that
would be modern love essayist Madison Perry uh realized that
his own real life IMPDG was more complicated than the
girls in the movies that he watched and wrote movies,
which in turn inspired women to think of themselves as
(03:04):
mp d g s, although Lara Basella exo j encountered
that you know what, they are not dead, although she
only used old examples to cite that, but she said,
no matter what, guys like Madison Perry are always going
to need and want muses and love seeing pretty young things,
(03:25):
so of course she will always exists. Although I will
say that I did agree with Virginia Pasley who noted
a while ago actually over at Slate that the MPDG
has come to mean every female role that's comedic or
even the slightest bit quirky. In fact, it's starting to
feel like an undeserved insult. So yeah, I feel like
(03:49):
the MPDG is dead because we have assigned too much
to her. Right. Yeah, the this, this little sketch of
a character is being crushed under the weight of all
of the baggage that we're putting on her, because, as
many people have brought up, it's being applied to almost
(04:10):
any female character Willy nilly who is anything other than
completely serious and in a drama. I mean, this term
is being thrown around and nobody seems to even be
able to agree on what it means anymore. Yeah, she
made her debut originally in two thousand seven from the
mind of a V Club film critic Nathan Raven, and
(04:32):
then she hit peak exposure. And now I think she's
so recognizable that writers probably wouldn't want to put her
in screen on screen. And this came to mind when
I was reading a New York Times article not too
long ago about how on the small screen, at least,
the new trope is the completely crazy go getter essentially,
(04:54):
where all of these women are kind of borderline and
saint and work too much. You know, you have the
Liz Lemons, the Leslie Nopes, the Carrie Mathison's of Homeland,
Mindy from The Mindy Project, Hannah horror Bath. Although she
doesn't work all that hard. She is, you know, a
little bit kookie. There'd be strong female protagonist who still
have a touch of that mannekin whimsy, but they're just
(05:17):
the center of things rather than just being a side show,
right and what they The point that they bring up
in that article is that if you the crazy defines them.
You know, you have a character like Monk on that
show who like, he's totally crazy with all of us
c D. But it's the source of his power and
he's beloved for it. Whereas you have a character like
(05:39):
Carrie mathieson or you know, Mindy or even Leslie Nope,
And if you take away they're crazy, they kind of
ceased to be the type of woman who the show
would revolve around. It's like that's their only good defining characteristic.
Although I don't know, I love Leslie Nope. Well sure, yeah,
I and I of Liz Lemon as well. Um, I
(06:02):
also have an affinity for Cardigans and I dated a
guy who wanted to start a food truck. It became
scary for a while how closely my life paralleled Liz Lemon.
But I will I'll say this though, for that reason,
I'll totally take this over the ubiquitous Manic Pixie dream Girl,
although her her meaning might be diluted. So I think,
(06:24):
I think with this, we gotta we gotta replay the
episode on Manic Pixie dream Girl and let listeners decide
for themselves if she's totally played out and did shall
we we shall? The arrival of the Manic Pixie dream
(06:44):
Girl is usually preceded by some kind of close up
of him in bed but yet with bags under his
eyes indicating sleeplessness or substance abuse, or a montage of
his life slowly falling apart, in his his clothing becoming
more and more disheveled. Yeah, exactly, and then you know,
(07:04):
a little burst of pixie dust arrives on the screen exactly,
just like a muppet or something. Um. Yeah, Raven. His
definition for this character is basically that she exists solely
in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer directors to teach brooding,
lee soulful young men to embrace life and it's infinite
(07:25):
mysteries and adventures. Or, as Anita sarkasan at feminist frequency
puts it, she is a shining beacon of childlike joy
that will rejuvenate our fallen hero and that sounds great. Yeah,
but what about her? Yeah, well she'll just she'll flit
her away on some wings that she's crafted out of
tool and glitter and nice. Yeah, that's the thing. She
(07:48):
she just falls by the wayside because she doesn't really
matter at the end. It's really the transformation of the
male hero who is almost always straight, almost always white.
Same thing. And we'll talk about race in a minute. Uh,
Manic Pixie dream Girl a very cookie cutter kind of
white character too. Um. And in addition to Elizabethtown uh
(08:11):
and Zoe d in The New Girl days of something Yeah, really,
five hundred days of summer. I don't I don't know,
I've I gotta say I have seen every episode of
The New Girl. I am a closet now out of
the closet, I just came out fan as a fan
of this is quite that's quite a change for mere attitude.
When we talked about the TV show back on our
(08:31):
TV episode, Yeah, I mean partially it is my lust
over her glasses, which was great, Um, but no, I
find it enjoyable. And there's actually one episode where she's
confronted by Lizzie Cappelan, who plays more serious female character
about being so girly, and she's just like, what this
(08:52):
is who I am. I've always liked being crafty and cute, see,
and it doesn't mean that I'm stupid. And that's part
of the argument that's a lot of the debate going
on on on I feel like, is you have these
people who are saying, you're grown up woman, You're talking
about kiddies and cupcakes. I'm not going to listen to you.
But then there's this other group of women saying, like,
so what if I'm girly, that doesn't take away my power.
(09:12):
But then there's that third little middle argument that says, Okay,
you like cupcakes, but did you like cupcakes before this
whole trend came along in pop culture? So yeah, um,
and just quickly to name, I guess a couple more
movies just pops up in Garden State Natalie Portman's character
and that uh you have going back. The A B
(09:34):
Club also did a post on I think it's fifteen
or sixteen movies featuring this trope, and they even cite
Annie Hall as a manic pixie dream girl bringing up
baby with Katherine Hepper Yep, saying that it goes way
way back. But um, in that Gloss article that you mentioned,
why are MP d g's getting dumber? Um, they say
(09:55):
that from Katherine Hepburn down to Zoe, she's been come,
she's lost her agency. Yeah, it's just kind of become
a caricature of a of a carefree, fun loving, independent,
strong female down to somebody who sinks when she's nervous
and makes cupcakes, which not that there's anything wrong with that. Yeah.
(10:16):
I like cupcakes. I do too, shoot man, just because
I don't bake them if I if I had more time. Yeah.
As New York Magazine pointed out in September, um there's
also grumbling about all here heroines of the past, people
like went On a writer and Parker Posey, who were
had the same quirk, um, but they had more of
(10:39):
an edge to them. They might have left by the
end of the movie because they just wanted to, not
because they poofed into a glitter bomb left. That sounds
like such a mess. Once you get glitter on you, you
you can never get it off everywhere. Yeah, I mean
it's possible that m Zoe Additional's character and other Manic
(11:00):
Pixie dream Girls could just irritate the heck out of
somebody with all their like sweetness and everything. But you know,
I think that maybe the argument that they're very flat,
two dimensional characters is not always warranted. Yeah, I mean,
and I think that is Zoe de Chanelle herself would
agree with you, Caroline on that point. She said at
one point quote that people equate being girly with being
(11:23):
non threatening. I mean, I can't think of a more
blatant example of playing into exactly the thing that we're
trying to fight against. I can't be girly. I think
the fact that people are associating being girly with weakness
that needs to be examined. I don't think that it
undermines my power at all. Right, But then part of
the argument goes back to, Okay, well, what are we
(11:45):
doing with this power? And what are we doing with
this girlishness and cuteness? Um over at the gloss. Jamie
Peck back in January said that she she actually hates
the manic Pixie dream girl because while this character, this
woman has some pretty amazing intense behind her, some pretty
amazing characteristics. She those characteristics like living life to the fullest,
(12:06):
are often made to seem trite and easily mocked. So uh,
Peck was saying, basically, like, I share some of the
characteristics of this stereotype, this trope, like I have some
of the same freewheeling, care free, independent attitudes, but characters
like this, the media portrayal of women like this is
sort of ruining it for some of us. Basically, Yeah,
(12:28):
And there's the whole concern too of like, well, are
we creating this message that men what men need are
our girls really, rather than more level headed women who
might not have the time or the desire to frolic
in a meadow, you know exactly, we might enjoy their
blackberries and cubicles more, right, And the women versus girls
(12:50):
debate and what men want was brought up by Willipashkin
and The Vulture back in February, and she she said
that this whole thing does kind of shed light on
how women are choosing to portray themselves to men and
what they think men want. And so if there's this
whole cutesie like h manic pixie, yeah, let's run in
the rain kind of thing, and they go for it
(13:12):
and they end up just looking like little girls. Yeah,
and it's also very heteronormative, a white heteronormative trope that
I think gets to a lot of these feminist bloggers. Um.
And especially when it comes to that issue of race.
It's something that the blog Racial Isious has talked about.
For instance, blogger Timmy Winfrey Harris rode a post called
(13:35):
who is the Black Zoe de Chanal? And Um. She
says that the persona of manic Pixie dream girl is
bound by class and race and that it's just this
perpetual childhood and whiteness. She says, whereas Black women might
be portrayed like a boho Lisa Bonet or more of
(13:56):
the earth mother Erica bad do there never care for
and childish yeah. Harris points out that often in the media,
African American women can be strong women, aggressive women, promiscuous women, um,
but they're never They're never that same like ha Kitton's
kind of portrayal. And she says even black girls are
(14:17):
too often viewed as worldly women and not innocent. Well,
and that's because a lot of times, uh, African American
characters have tropes of their own that you're there. They're
used within movies to teach other people a lesson they're
their own, you know, manic pixie dream girls in their
own ways, where you know you'll have a magical Morgan
(14:37):
Freeman come in and teach the stuck up white lady
a lesson about how she needs to loosen up a
little bit, and then he'll go and you'll appreciate her
transformation instead. So, since we've talked about race, um, you
know how we don't see this trope reflected in the
same way, um from people of different colors and ethnicities.
(14:59):
What about gender? Where is the manic pixie dream guy?
Would the manic pixie dream guy be the same? Would
he come flitting in with his own color of glitter
and throw it at you and then kind of flit
her off and disappear after your transformation? Does it work
the same? It will? It's funny that you asked it.
(15:22):
There's a post on nerve about this. They argue that
an audience would not want to see a woman left
on her own. That would be more of a tragedy.
That even if a manic pixie dream guy like the
character in Under the Tuscan Sun who comes and revives
Diane Lane from her from her woes and breathed life
back into her body and soul. Even though he spoiler alert,
(15:46):
ends up you know, not being with her the in
the movie, we are still left satisfied because someone else
comes along to take that place, right, just when you think, right,
beautiful Italian Lane and her Tuscan villa, what a shame
she had. It's the magic guy who comes in and
you know, and takes care of her and gets her
on her way to taking care of herself. And then
once she is you know, her own person and she
(16:09):
has someone else to enjoy being with for the rest
of her life exactly well the rest of her life.
But yeah, they a nerve. They say that male free
spiritedness is often portrayed in a negative light and they say,
I'm looking at you, Don Draper, Yeah, because it's just
(16:29):
not the same. Well, it's the whole It goes to
the whole dating logic of you know, women not wanting
to come across as too needy, you know, the fastest
way I mean, and I'm and I'm quoting uh stereotype. Now,
the fastest way to to get a man to be
attracted to you is to be unavailable, you know, whereas uh,
(16:49):
men who are free spirited, they're just gonna be bad boys,
and they're gonna leave you, and they're just gonna probably
collect lots of STDs and up hurting you at the
end of the day. So yeah, manic pixied him guy
would be someone that you know, all of your friends
would tell you to stay away from. Probably. Yeah, who
are the manic Pixie dream guys out there? Did you? Yes?
I did? How did it? Did he have glitter? Uh? No? Um,
(17:14):
although I remember one night and he ran into him
and his nails were painted. Uh. He was whimsical and
he he left as quickly as he came. So but
it was the thing, is it? A months down the
line after the relationship, I realized that it did sort
of forced me to a point to where, um, it
(17:37):
did kind of make me and do some positive things
with myself beyond my normal scope interest. I'm not saying
he's necessarily the reason why, but it was a step
along the way. Yeah. So there's been so much made
of this Manic Pixie dream girl trope. Uh, and we
want to talk about it because the listener had written
(17:58):
in about it. But it's also been something that I
had wanted to explore and I didn't realize that the
term has only been around since two thousand seven. But
my goodness, how much attention she has gotten. And I
wonder why she's gotten so much attention. And so it's
a cluster of contemporary films. Um, and yet she arouses
(18:19):
so much debate she does well. I mean, yeah, you
have to wonder what's going on in the writer's minds
that this is happening so much all of a sudden.
But I like the distinction that a lot of these
writers have drawn between characters like Zoey Deschanel and Natalie
Portman and um, Kate Winslet's character and uh internal sension
of a spotless mine, Yes, ma'am, because she is that
(18:41):
dream girl. She's kind of cookie and crazy and fun,
but she's portrayed as having real, actual problems, and so
that's what At Slate they pointed out that the difference
between a man a pixie dream girl and a just
you know, independent, cookie female character kind of like kristin Wigan.
It's made right. It's the sense that something's actually wrong
(19:03):
with the manic pixie dream girl. Yeah. Um, I'll be
interested to hear from our listeners what what everyone thinks
about it, Whether it's being you know, isn't too big
of a deal. I mean, uh. Anita Sarkisian over feminist frequency,
links all of this to the problem of the female muse.
(19:24):
You know, you think of Warhol, Dylan, Picasso. What are
you allen all of them of cited? You know, these
female muses in their life who are the inspiration for
their great art. And she says, you know, Manic Pixie
dream Girls serves a similar thing with fictional characters too.
You know, there are way too um they're a cipher
to allow them to do great things with their lives.
(19:45):
And she takes issue with that because she says, well,
these women should be standing on their own. But at
the same time, I don't know. I think sometimes we
might be making too much of the um high waisted
dresses and cupcakes. Yeah, and also I think people need
to I need to tone it down as far as
hating on other women. I mean, yes, would I choose
(20:06):
to associate with some of these women in real life?
Maybe not like seriously, take your kiddies and go elsewhere, lady.
But I mean that doesn't mean that I think they're
less of a valid persona or personality. No, I think
that's a good point. I think in the in the argument,
it's a slippery slow because in a lot of these
arguments that are calling these tropes out for um, you know,
(20:29):
maybe not portraying women as well, it does quickly crumble
into women hating on women. So let's build each other up.
Let's eat our cupcakes together, and you know, Manic Pixie
Dream guys, so you can. You can come to craft
Night as well well. So we hope you enjoyed reintroducing
(20:53):
yourself to the Manic Pixie Dream girl. I don't know
what do you what do you think Kristen? Is she
dead or is she just transforming in getting reincarnated as
something else. I think that elements will obviously still live on,
but I don't think that we will see it to
the extent of say a Natalie Portman in Garden State,
because she was so overexposed. So I think this is
(21:17):
us bidding a faun farewell well. I feel that the
character will live on. She will be very strong. I
think she will just take on a different name. I
think MPDG is going into the Witness Protection program. And
I will say this about Zoe de Chanelle. Wow, you
might call her a manic pixie dream girl. Reading interviews
(21:38):
with her, she's a smart, intelligent woman who says, oh, yeah, sure,
you think I'm foolish for liking bows and vintage dresses. Well,
what's her bleepity bleep quote from Glamour? You know, she
says that I can be a blank feminist and were
a blank Peter Collar. Why you know, just leave me alone. Yeah,
(21:58):
So I think that's doesn't sound like a manic pixie
dream real to me. That sounds like a woman who
is very self actualized. Yeah, with just great big eyes
and great bangs. Such good things. So send us your letters.
Mom Stuff discovery dot com is where you can send them,
or you can always send us a note on Facebook
or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. And we have
(22:19):
a couple of notes to share with you right after
we talk about audible dot com, which Caroline is the
leading provider of downloadable digital audio books and spoken word entertainment.
That's right. Audible has more than one hundred thousand titles
to choose from to be downloaded to your ipotter, m
P three player and play back anywhere anytime. You can
(22:41):
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that free audio book download to listen to lean In
(23:02):
Women Work in the Will to Lead by Cheryl Sandberg,
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Go to audible podcast dot com slash stuff Mom and
sign up today. And now back to our letters. Yeah,
here's one from McKenna about our Instagram episode. She says,
(23:27):
I've never used Instagram and don't post selfies, but I
admit I've taken a few. My reason wasn't mentioned in
your most recent podcast, but I feel like it might
be common and relatable. I'm twenty two and looking better
than I ever have or probably ever will again. I
don't want this time of my life to pass pictureless.
When I'm old and wrinkly but probably still suffering from acne.
(23:50):
I want to pull out a picture and remember that
I was once a twentysomething to die for. It might
seem a little vain, but when I was in grade school,
I was voted the ugliest kid in my class. I
had a lessons wasn't much better, and it's only been
the last couple of years that I've developed any social
or fashion sense. I will gladly immortalize my twenties with
(24:10):
the occasional selfie, but of course it's always better when
someone else and that's a good picture. Thanks for everything
you do. I love the podcast, so thank you McKenna.
I totally get where you're coming from. Mckennas or says
the girl who's crows sader already coming in. Uh, and
by girl I mean woman. So I've got a Facebook
(24:30):
message here from Natalie and she needs a little advice. Caroline,
and I want to share us with you and also
with our listeners if they have any advice as well.
She says. First of all, we gotta give a shout
out to her best friend, Kelly. Hey, Kelly, she writes,
I work as a horticulturist at a country club. Everyone
else on the grounds crew is a man, and sometimes
(24:51):
this makes work difficult. My boss can be somewhat of
an unintentional sexist, saying things like you're a woman, you
know it looks good, or you're a woman, you pay
tension to detail, thinking that he's giving me a compliment.
These are things I'm good at, but I worked very
hard at it. He has even asked me if I
was on my period in the past when I was
upset over the way one of the other men on
(25:12):
the crew treated me. And I've also had the issue
of pranks being pulled by some of the meaner coworkers.
Just today, I found that they had filled my work
gloves with mouse poop. I'd like to come up with
a way to work these issues out without more conflict occurring,
and so everyone can work together happily. I feel so
lost and don't know what to do. You guys give
such great advice. I was hoping you could help. So
(25:36):
how do you get your coworkers to stop acting like
nincome poops? Nincome mouse poops mouse pops. I don't know.
I mean, um, it sounds like it's kind of more
serious than I mean. It started out sounding like whatever,
they're just insensitive or ignorant, but it's starting to sound
(25:58):
like it'sigger than that. I don't know. Maybe start out
when he says things like, well, you're a woman, you
know what flowers are pretty? I mean can you Can
you joke back, I mean, not joke, but like the
snarky back and say things like, well, you're a man,
what are you doing playing with flowers? Not that I
encourage the divisive, you know, gender norms to perpetuate or anything,
(26:20):
but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I do know
what you're saying, And uh, that would could be a
great place to start, kind of a little bit fighting
fire with fire. I don't recommend that you turn around
and fill anyone's gloves up with poop. Can she just
talk to him? Can she just talk to her boss
and say, listen, I'm the only woman on the crew,
and I worked really hard at this, and I'm tired
(26:42):
of just being looked at as the only woman on
the crew. I work hards. Yeah, I mean, if if
that's possible to approach him confidently and in a concise,
you know, stern manner, say that. I think that's absolutely
a possibility, and maybe pair it with um, you know,
when they fill your gloves with mouse poop without even
(27:03):
cracking any sort of expression on your face, turned right
around and dump that mouse poop into one of their
lunch boxes. Yeah, I mean, if anything, I think in
this case, humor is going to be your best friend
because being too outwardly sensitive about it might only egg
it on, but you might be able to diffuse the
(27:23):
situation by being a little more humorous. Yeah, but really,
I do want to hear from other listeners if they
have advice on this, because I've never been the only
woman working in a place, and I know we've heard
from other listeners before who are in really male heavy
in work environments who go along just fine. So any
(27:45):
advice help Natalie out. Thanks Natalie and Kelly for listening,
and thanks to everybody who's written in. Mom Stuff at
Discovery dot com is our email address. You can message
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(28:08):
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Welcome to stuff mom never told you from House Top
works not common. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and we are revisiting a listener
favorite topic, which is the Manic Pixie dream Girl. Wait
for it, do you hear that? That's an entire audience groaning? Oh,
(00:27):
because we're no one likes the Manic Pixie dream Girl
because the character. I feel like people are just exhausted
by this woman, this this imaginary woman. Yeah, people are
a little bit wary of the MPDG. But I thought
that we could revisit it, or rather eulogize the Manic
Pixie dream Girl, even though I will say Fault TV
(00:49):
has started, which means that America's favorite Manic Pixie dream Girl,
Zoe d back on for a new season of New
girl Ie. One day, I might watch that. Oh, it's enjoyable, Okay,
it's fine. I'm I I don't know, I just you know,
I'm more watching other things. She has beautiful bangs, That's
what I've heard. So what about the death of the
(01:11):
Manic Pixie dream Girl. Well, yeah, she was declared dead.
I know she was having such a moment in two
thousand and twelve, her life was cut so short. And
when we did that podcast, we got so many emails
from people saying that they knew of the trope, they
had seen it, they knew real people who were doing this,
they knew Manic Pixie dream guys. And now April two
(01:34):
thousand thirteen, Monica Bartsial at The Week says, you know what, MPDG,
you need to retire. Yeah. She says that the whole
trope has devolved into what she calls laziness and sexism.
And she said, the first really negative bad sign about
this whole thing, this trend of referring to female characters
(01:56):
as Manic Pixie dream girls, is that Annie Hall was
included in the group. And that's like you just hear
glass shattering in your mind when you hear people referring
to her as that, because it has adopted such a
negative connotation, right, and people would take offense to a
character as beloved as Annie Hall being called little more
(02:17):
than just a vessel for Woody Allen's own personal development.
And then July twenty, New York Magazine's Kate Stoefel says,
you know what, not only is the MPDG retired, she
just did. The term is lust all meaning she did
so stow Feel points to the moment MPDG was over
(02:41):
for her, and she says the manic mixie dream girl
completed her life cycle when a male filmmaker, and that
would be modern love essayist Madison Perry uh realized that
his own real life IMPDG was more complicated than the
girls in the movies that he watched and wrote movies,
which in turn inspired women to think of themselves as
(03:04):
mp d g s, although Lara Basella exo j encountered
that you know what, they are not dead, although she
only used old examples to cite that, but she said,
no matter what, guys like Madison Perry are always going
to need and want muses and love seeing pretty young things,
(03:25):
so of course she will always exists. Although I will
say that I did agree with Virginia Pasley who noted
a while ago actually over at Slate that the MPDG
has come to mean every female role that's comedic or
even the slightest bit quirky. In fact, it's starting to
feel like an undeserved insult. So yeah, I feel like
(03:49):
the MPDG is dead because we have assigned too much
to her. Right. Yeah, the this, this little sketch of
a character is being crushed under the weight of all
of the baggage that we're putting on her, because, as
many people have brought up, it's being applied to almost
(04:10):
any female character Willy nilly who is anything other than
completely serious and in a drama. I mean, this term
is being thrown around and nobody seems to even be
able to agree on what it means anymore. Yeah, she
made her debut originally in two thousand seven from the
mind of a V Club film critic Nathan Raven, and
(04:32):
then she hit peak exposure. And now I think she's
so recognizable that writers probably wouldn't want to put her
in screen on screen. And this came to mind when
I was reading a New York Times article not too
long ago about how on the small screen, at least,
the new trope is the completely crazy go getter essentially,
(04:54):
where all of these women are kind of borderline and
saint and work too much. You know, you have the
Liz Lemons, the Leslie Nopes, the Carrie Mathison's of Homeland,
Mindy from The Mindy Project, Hannah horror Bath. Although she
doesn't work all that hard. She is, you know, a
little bit kookie. There'd be strong female protagonist who still
have a touch of that mannekin whimsy, but they're just
(05:17):
the center of things rather than just being a side show,
right and what they The point that they bring up
in that article is that if you the crazy defines them.
You know, you have a character like Monk on that
show who like, he's totally crazy with all of us
c D. But it's the source of his power and
he's beloved for it. Whereas you have a character like
(05:39):
Carrie mathieson or you know, Mindy or even Leslie Nope,
And if you take away they're crazy, they kind of
ceased to be the type of woman who the show
would revolve around. It's like that's their only good defining characteristic.
Although I don't know, I love Leslie Nope. Well sure, yeah,
I and I of Liz Lemon as well. Um, I
(06:02):
also have an affinity for Cardigans and I dated a
guy who wanted to start a food truck. It became
scary for a while how closely my life paralleled Liz Lemon.
But I will I'll say this though, for that reason,
I'll totally take this over the ubiquitous Manic Pixie dream Girl,
although her her meaning might be diluted. So I think,
(06:24):
I think with this, we gotta we gotta replay the
episode on Manic Pixie dream Girl and let listeners decide
for themselves if she's totally played out and did shall
we we shall? The arrival of the Manic Pixie dream
(06:44):
Girl is usually preceded by some kind of close up
of him in bed but yet with bags under his
eyes indicating sleeplessness or substance abuse, or a montage of
his life slowly falling apart, in his his clothing becoming
more and more disheveled. Yeah, exactly, and then you know,
(07:04):
a little burst of pixie dust arrives on the screen exactly,
just like a muppet or something. Um. Yeah, Raven. His
definition for this character is basically that she exists solely
in the fevered imaginations of sensitive writer directors to teach brooding,
lee soulful young men to embrace life and it's infinite
(07:25):
mysteries and adventures. Or, as Anita sarkasan at feminist frequency
puts it, she is a shining beacon of childlike joy
that will rejuvenate our fallen hero and that sounds great. Yeah,
but what about her? Yeah, well she'll just she'll flit
her away on some wings that she's crafted out of
tool and glitter and nice. Yeah, that's the thing. She
(07:48):
she just falls by the wayside because she doesn't really
matter at the end. It's really the transformation of the
male hero who is almost always straight, almost always white.
Same thing. And we'll talk about race in a minute. Uh,
Manic Pixie dream Girl a very cookie cutter kind of
white character too. Um. And in addition to Elizabethtown uh
(08:11):
and Zoe d in The New Girl days of something Yeah, really,
five hundred days of summer. I don't I don't know,
I've I gotta say I have seen every episode of
The New Girl. I am a closet now out of
the closet, I just came out fan as a fan
of this is quite that's quite a change for mere attitude.
When we talked about the TV show back on our
(08:31):
TV episode, Yeah, I mean partially it is my lust
over her glasses, which was great, Um, but no, I
find it enjoyable. And there's actually one episode where she's
confronted by Lizzie Cappelan, who plays more serious female character
about being so girly, and she's just like, what this
(08:52):
is who I am. I've always liked being crafty and cute, see,
and it doesn't mean that I'm stupid. And that's part
of the argument that's a lot of the debate going
on on on I feel like, is you have these
people who are saying, you're grown up woman, You're talking
about kiddies and cupcakes. I'm not going to listen to you.
But then there's this other group of women saying, like,
so what if I'm girly, that doesn't take away my power.
(09:12):
But then there's that third little middle argument that says, Okay,
you like cupcakes, but did you like cupcakes before this
whole trend came along in pop culture? So yeah, um,
and just quickly to name, I guess a couple more
movies just pops up in Garden State Natalie Portman's character
and that uh you have going back. The A B
(09:34):
Club also did a post on I think it's fifteen
or sixteen movies featuring this trope, and they even cite
Annie Hall as a manic pixie dream girl bringing up
baby with Katherine Hepper Yep, saying that it goes way
way back. But um, in that Gloss article that you mentioned,
why are MP d g's getting dumber? Um, they say
(09:55):
that from Katherine Hepburn down to Zoe, she's been come,
she's lost her agency. Yeah, it's just kind of become
a caricature of a of a carefree, fun loving, independent,
strong female down to somebody who sinks when she's nervous
and makes cupcakes, which not that there's anything wrong with that. Yeah.
(10:16):
I like cupcakes. I do too, shoot man, just because
I don't bake them if I if I had more time. Yeah.
As New York Magazine pointed out in September, um there's
also grumbling about all here heroines of the past, people
like went On a writer and Parker Posey, who were
had the same quirk, um, but they had more of
(10:39):
an edge to them. They might have left by the
end of the movie because they just wanted to, not
because they poofed into a glitter bomb left. That sounds
like such a mess. Once you get glitter on you, you
you can never get it off everywhere. Yeah, I mean
it's possible that m Zoe Additional's character and other Manic
(11:00):
Pixie dream Girls could just irritate the heck out of
somebody with all their like sweetness and everything. But you know,
I think that maybe the argument that they're very flat,
two dimensional characters is not always warranted. Yeah, I mean,
and I think that is Zoe de Chanelle herself would
agree with you, Caroline on that point. She said at
one point quote that people equate being girly with being
(11:23):
non threatening. I mean, I can't think of a more
blatant example of playing into exactly the thing that we're
trying to fight against. I can't be girly. I think
the fact that people are associating being girly with weakness
that needs to be examined. I don't think that it
undermines my power at all. Right, But then part of
the argument goes back to, Okay, well, what are we
(11:45):
doing with this power? And what are we doing with
this girlishness and cuteness? Um over at the gloss. Jamie
Peck back in January said that she she actually hates
the manic Pixie dream girl because while this character, this
woman has some pretty amazing intense behind her, some pretty
amazing characteristics. She those characteristics like living life to the fullest,
(12:06):
are often made to seem trite and easily mocked. So uh,
Peck was saying, basically, like, I share some of the
characteristics of this stereotype, this trope, like I have some
of the same freewheeling, care free, independent attitudes, but characters
like this, the media portrayal of women like this is
sort of ruining it for some of us. Basically, Yeah,
(12:28):
And there's the whole concern too of like, well, are
we creating this message that men what men need are
our girls really, rather than more level headed women who
might not have the time or the desire to frolic
in a meadow, you know exactly, we might enjoy their
blackberries and cubicles more, right, And the women versus girls
(12:50):
debate and what men want was brought up by Willipashkin
and The Vulture back in February, and she she said
that this whole thing does kind of shed light on
how women are choosing to portray themselves to men and
what they think men want. And so if there's this
whole cutesie like h manic pixie, yeah, let's run in
the rain kind of thing, and they go for it
(13:12):
and they end up just looking like little girls. Yeah,
and it's also very heteronormative, a white heteronormative trope that
I think gets to a lot of these feminist bloggers. Um.
And especially when it comes to that issue of race.
It's something that the blog Racial Isious has talked about.
For instance, blogger Timmy Winfrey Harris rode a post called
(13:35):
who is the Black Zoe de Chanal? And Um. She
says that the persona of manic Pixie dream girl is
bound by class and race and that it's just this
perpetual childhood and whiteness. She says, whereas Black women might
be portrayed like a boho Lisa Bonet or more of
(13:56):
the earth mother Erica bad do there never care for
and childish yeah. Harris points out that often in the media,
African American women can be strong women, aggressive women, promiscuous women, um,
but they're never They're never that same like ha Kitton's
kind of portrayal. And she says even black girls are
(14:17):
too often viewed as worldly women and not innocent. Well,
and that's because a lot of times, uh, African American
characters have tropes of their own that you're there. They're
used within movies to teach other people a lesson they're
their own, you know, manic pixie dream girls in their
own ways, where you know you'll have a magical Morgan
(14:37):
Freeman come in and teach the stuck up white lady
a lesson about how she needs to loosen up a
little bit, and then he'll go and you'll appreciate her
transformation instead. So, since we've talked about race, um, you
know how we don't see this trope reflected in the
same way, um from people of different colors and ethnicities.
(14:59):
What about gender? Where is the manic pixie dream guy?
Would the manic pixie dream guy be the same? Would
he come flitting in with his own color of glitter
and throw it at you and then kind of flit
her off and disappear after your transformation? Does it work
the same? It will? It's funny that you asked it.
(15:22):
There's a post on nerve about this. They argue that
an audience would not want to see a woman left
on her own. That would be more of a tragedy.
That even if a manic pixie dream guy like the
character in Under the Tuscan Sun who comes and revives
Diane Lane from her from her woes and breathed life
back into her body and soul. Even though he spoiler alert,
(15:46):
ends up you know, not being with her the in
the movie, we are still left satisfied because someone else
comes along to take that place, right, just when you think, right,
beautiful Italian Lane and her Tuscan villa, what a shame
she had. It's the magic guy who comes in and
you know, and takes care of her and gets her
on her way to taking care of herself. And then
once she is you know, her own person and she
(16:09):
has someone else to enjoy being with for the rest
of her life exactly well the rest of her life.
But yeah, they a nerve. They say that male free
spiritedness is often portrayed in a negative light and they say,
I'm looking at you, Don Draper, Yeah, because it's just
(16:29):
not the same. Well, it's the whole It goes to
the whole dating logic of you know, women not wanting
to come across as too needy, you know, the fastest
way I mean, and I'm and I'm quoting uh stereotype. Now,
the fastest way to to get a man to be
attracted to you is to be unavailable, you know, whereas uh,
(16:49):
men who are free spirited, they're just gonna be bad boys,
and they're gonna leave you, and they're just gonna probably
collect lots of STDs and up hurting you at the
end of the day. So yeah, manic pixied him guy
would be someone that you know, all of your friends
would tell you to stay away from. Probably. Yeah, who
are the manic Pixie dream guys out there? Did you? Yes?
I did? How did it? Did he have glitter? Uh? No? Um,
(17:14):
although I remember one night and he ran into him
and his nails were painted. Uh. He was whimsical and
he he left as quickly as he came. So but
it was the thing, is it? A months down the
line after the relationship, I realized that it did sort
of forced me to a point to where, um, it
(17:37):
did kind of make me and do some positive things
with myself beyond my normal scope interest. I'm not saying
he's necessarily the reason why, but it was a step
along the way. Yeah. So there's been so much made
of this Manic Pixie dream girl trope. Uh, and we
want to talk about it because the listener had written
(17:58):
in about it. But it's also been something that I
had wanted to explore and I didn't realize that the
term has only been around since two thousand seven. But
my goodness, how much attention she has gotten. And I
wonder why she's gotten so much attention. And so it's
a cluster of contemporary films. Um, and yet she arouses
(18:19):
so much debate she does well. I mean, yeah, you
have to wonder what's going on in the writer's minds
that this is happening so much all of a sudden.
But I like the distinction that a lot of these
writers have drawn between characters like Zoey Deschanel and Natalie
Portman and um, Kate Winslet's character and uh internal sension
of a spotless mine, Yes, ma'am, because she is that
(18:41):
dream girl. She's kind of cookie and crazy and fun,
but she's portrayed as having real, actual problems, and so
that's what At Slate they pointed out that the difference
between a man a pixie dream girl and a just
you know, independent, cookie female character kind of like kristin Wigan.
It's made right. It's the sense that something's actually wrong
(19:03):
with the manic pixie dream girl. Yeah. Um, I'll be
interested to hear from our listeners what what everyone thinks
about it, Whether it's being you know, isn't too big
of a deal. I mean, uh. Anita Sarkisian over feminist frequency,
links all of this to the problem of the female muse.
(19:24):
You know, you think of Warhol, Dylan, Picasso. What are
you allen all of them of cited? You know, these
female muses in their life who are the inspiration for
their great art. And she says, you know, Manic Pixie
dream Girls serves a similar thing with fictional characters too.
You know, there are way too um they're a cipher
to allow them to do great things with their lives.
(19:45):
And she takes issue with that because she says, well,
these women should be standing on their own. But at
the same time, I don't know. I think sometimes we
might be making too much of the um high waisted
dresses and cupcakes. Yeah, and also I think people need
to I need to tone it down as far as
hating on other women. I mean, yes, would I choose
(20:06):
to associate with some of these women in real life?
Maybe not like seriously, take your kiddies and go elsewhere, lady.
But I mean that doesn't mean that I think they're
less of a valid persona or personality. No, I think
that's a good point. I think in the in the argument,
it's a slippery slow because in a lot of these
arguments that are calling these tropes out for um, you know,
(20:29):
maybe not portraying women as well, it does quickly crumble
into women hating on women. So let's build each other up.
Let's eat our cupcakes together, and you know, Manic Pixie
Dream guys, so you can. You can come to craft
Night as well well. So we hope you enjoyed reintroducing
(20:53):
yourself to the Manic Pixie Dream girl. I don't know
what do you what do you think Kristen? Is she
dead or is she just transforming in getting reincarnated as
something else. I think that elements will obviously still live on,
but I don't think that we will see it to
the extent of say a Natalie Portman in Garden State,
because she was so overexposed. So I think this is
(21:17):
us bidding a faun farewell well. I feel that the
character will live on. She will be very strong. I
think she will just take on a different name. I
think MPDG is going into the Witness Protection program. And
I will say this about Zoe de Chanelle. Wow, you
might call her a manic pixie dream girl. Reading interviews
(21:38):
with her, she's a smart, intelligent woman who says, oh, yeah, sure,
you think I'm foolish for liking bows and vintage dresses. Well,
what's her bleepity bleep quote from Glamour? You know, she
says that I can be a blank feminist and were
a blank Peter Collar. Why you know, just leave me alone. Yeah,
(21:58):
So I think that's doesn't sound like a manic pixie
dream real to me. That sounds like a woman who
is very self actualized. Yeah, with just great big eyes
and great bangs. Such good things. So send us your letters.
Mom Stuff discovery dot com is where you can send them,
or you can always send us a note on Facebook
or tweet us at Mom's Stuff podcast. And we have
(22:19):
a couple of notes to share with you right after
we talk about audible dot com, which Caroline is the
leading provider of downloadable digital audio books and spoken word entertainment.
That's right. Audible has more than one hundred thousand titles
to choose from to be downloaded to your ipotter, m
P three player and play back anywhere anytime. You can
(22:41):
choose from books in every genre, from science fiction to
history and more so. Go to audible podcast dot com
slash stuff Mom to get your free audio book download
of your choice when you sign up today and listeners
of stuff Mom never told you might like to use
that free audio book download to listen to lean In
(23:02):
Women Work in the Will to Lead by Cheryl Sandberg,
because we are still doing that four part series on
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Go to audible podcast dot com slash stuff Mom and
sign up today. And now back to our letters. Yeah,
here's one from McKenna about our Instagram episode. She says,
(23:27):
I've never used Instagram and don't post selfies, but I
admit I've taken a few. My reason wasn't mentioned in
your most recent podcast, but I feel like it might
be common and relatable. I'm twenty two and looking better
than I ever have or probably ever will again. I
don't want this time of my life to pass pictureless.
When I'm old and wrinkly but probably still suffering from acne.
(23:50):
I want to pull out a picture and remember that
I was once a twentysomething to die for. It might
seem a little vain, but when I was in grade school,
I was voted the ugliest kid in my class. I
had a lessons wasn't much better, and it's only been
the last couple of years that I've developed any social
or fashion sense. I will gladly immortalize my twenties with
(24:10):
the occasional selfie, but of course it's always better when
someone else and that's a good picture. Thanks for everything
you do. I love the podcast, so thank you McKenna.
I totally get where you're coming from. Mckennas or says
the girl who's crows sader already coming in. Uh, and
by girl I mean woman. So I've got a Facebook
(24:30):
message here from Natalie and she needs a little advice. Caroline,
and I want to share us with you and also
with our listeners if they have any advice as well.
She says. First of all, we gotta give a shout
out to her best friend, Kelly. Hey, Kelly, she writes,
I work as a horticulturist at a country club. Everyone
else on the grounds crew is a man, and sometimes
(24:51):
this makes work difficult. My boss can be somewhat of
an unintentional sexist, saying things like you're a woman, you
know it looks good, or you're a woman, you pay
tension to detail, thinking that he's giving me a compliment.
These are things I'm good at, but I worked very
hard at it. He has even asked me if I
was on my period in the past when I was
upset over the way one of the other men on
(25:12):
the crew treated me. And I've also had the issue
of pranks being pulled by some of the meaner coworkers.
Just today, I found that they had filled my work
gloves with mouse poop. I'd like to come up with
a way to work these issues out without more conflict occurring,
and so everyone can work together happily. I feel so
lost and don't know what to do. You guys give
such great advice. I was hoping you could help. So
(25:36):
how do you get your coworkers to stop acting like
nincome poops? Nincome mouse poops mouse pops. I don't know.
I mean, um, it sounds like it's kind of more
serious than I mean. It started out sounding like whatever,
they're just insensitive or ignorant, but it's starting to sound
(25:58):
like it'sigger than that. I don't know. Maybe start out
when he says things like, well, you're a woman, you
know what flowers are pretty? I mean can you Can
you joke back, I mean, not joke, but like the
snarky back and say things like, well, you're a man,
what are you doing playing with flowers? Not that I
encourage the divisive, you know, gender norms to perpetuate or anything,
(26:20):
but you know what I'm saying. Yeah, I do know
what you're saying, And uh, that would could be a
great place to start, kind of a little bit fighting
fire with fire. I don't recommend that you turn around
and fill anyone's gloves up with poop. Can she just
talk to him? Can she just talk to her boss
and say, listen, I'm the only woman on the crew,
and I worked really hard at this, and I'm tired
(26:42):
of just being looked at as the only woman on
the crew. I work hards. Yeah, I mean, if if
that's possible to approach him confidently and in a concise,
you know, stern manner, say that. I think that's absolutely
a possibility, and maybe pair it with um, you know,
when they fill your gloves with mouse poop without even
(27:03):
cracking any sort of expression on your face, turned right
around and dump that mouse poop into one of their
lunch boxes. Yeah, I mean, if anything, I think in
this case, humor is going to be your best friend
because being too outwardly sensitive about it might only egg
it on, but you might be able to diffuse the
(27:23):
situation by being a little more humorous. Yeah, but really,
I do want to hear from other listeners if they
have advice on this, because I've never been the only
woman working in a place, and I know we've heard
from other listeners before who are in really male heavy
in work environments who go along just fine. So any
(27:45):
advice help Natalie out. Thanks Natalie and Kelly for listening,
and thanks to everybody who's written in. Mom Stuff at
Discovery dot com is our email address. You can message
us on Facebook as well and tweet us at mom
Stuff Podcast. You can hang out with us during the
week on tumbler It's stuff I'm Never told You dot
tumblr dot com, as well as on Instagram at stuff
(28:08):
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