#MeToo 2: Louis CK Edition

Louis CK apologies for years of predatory sexual behavior. E&B unpack what it means for women in comedy.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and this is Emily, and you're
listening to stuff mom never told you, and today I
have to give a trigger warning. Not super thrilled to
be coming back to this topic again so soon, but

(00:27):
here we are. Men continue to be terrible in the
Hollywood media landscape. So we're back at it again, me too,
Part two, the Louis t K Edition. Now. Several of
y'all tweeted at us after Louis c. K released his
apology for apology in air quotes, Oh, I'm actually gonna
just call it a statement. He makes more sense. There

(00:47):
was no apology his statement regarding allegations that he had
been non consensually masturbating in front of women in writer's
rooms and in the comedy world for a very long time.
Those allegations, as we all I know, turned not to
be very true. Several of you wrote in asking what
we thought about this situation, his statement and whether or
not it was authentic and genuine. So today we're really

(01:09):
going to unpack what led up to this moment, how
rumors and the comedy and Hollywood and media landscape really
kind of we're all accurate in this case, and what
it means for Hollywood and women going forward now the
last time, at the end of our me Too episode,
which we by the way, we're not intending to make
a series, but it's starting to feel like it might

(01:30):
become one. We had really wrapped that conversation up by
talking about this so called witch hunt. First of all,
I'm still excited and motivated by this so called witch
hunt hunt. I think this is like the witch Hunt
rolling out. However, there was some concern around due process
and like it's just going to become, uh, you know,

(01:53):
the rumor mill run amuck, and I think we are
starting to see real accusations being put forth and actually
resulting in serious ramifications for every sexual predator. Accept our
president apparently Trump alert. But one of you brilliant listeners
actually tweeted at us this really interesting component of the
witch hunt which is now gleefully underway, that I thought

(02:16):
was so on point. So thanks to Coyote Meal, who
tweeted at us. Women call men out on their bad behavior.
Men wine and cry quote it's a witch hunt, No, boys,
witch hunts were when powerful men imprisoned and killed independent women.
That's not your term to borrow. Hashtag take back witch

(02:36):
hunt hashtag history and then she tweated at mom Stone
podcast and full frontal sam b and I just thought
that is such a good point. This idea that this
is a witch hunt that they can wine and freak
out and complain about is ironic considering women were persecuted
for nothing other than I don't know, intelligence or independent independence,

(02:58):
maybe having pockets when that wasn't when that was caused
for suspicion, and this is the witch hunt edition, Like,
this is actually holding people accountable. Unfortunately, this is leading
to serious ramifications for folks like Louis c K. It
really is. And even when we first recorded our last

(03:18):
episode on Me Too, which wasn't even that long ago,
a handful more, you know, powerful people in Hollywood have
gone down because of allegations similar to those that Louis
c K found himself with. In no way is this
a complete list. There are so many more. If we
were to list them all, we'd be here all day
because that's how gross this is. Uh. So far, we
have Brett Radner, very powerful Hollywood director who was accused

(03:40):
by a handful of actresses for sexual misconduct and allegations.
We mentioned Kevin Spacey's allegations in an earlier version of
our Me Too podcast. Well, now Netflix has canceled House
of Cards, and really we've seen a lot of swift
movement for getting justice for his victims, which is interesting
to me because part of me wonders if it's because

(04:00):
he's a man and his victims were male that it
was so swift. Even with Harvey Weinstein, it seemed like
there was a couple of days where it was like, Oh,
what's gonna happen? Is he going to get the boot?
Blah blah blah women exactly Kevin Spacey. It seems very
very back. Another instance that I found really telling and
kind of fascinating is this case with Biju Phillips. Basically,

(04:22):
when Biju Phillips was in this movie Bully back in
the early two thousand's, one of her co stars, Daniel Frenzies,
you might know as Damien from the movie Mean Girls,
which of course is a classic, he came out with
allegations that when they were filming the movie Bully way
back when Biju Phillips is pretty terrible to him. Now
he's a gay man, she's a woman, But that is
supposed to show you that sexual harassment in the workplace

(04:44):
isn't just man to woman. It can be anyone to anyone,
because it's really about power. So he alleges that she
made fun of his body when he had to take
his clothes off for different scenes, that she would often
make fun of him for being gay in front of
the other co stars. I mean she was harassing. That's
harassing to harass. It really goes to show that these
cases can often be about power and making the other
person feel powerless and exploiting these power dynamics. And so again,

(05:08):
this isn't something that just happens men to women, although
that tends to be the conversation that we're having in Hollywood.
It can happen to me or men to men. It
can happen to anyone, right. Michael Risky's from NPR is
the latest whose name is in the headlines. NPR has
been doing its own reporting on it and an investigation
into the allegations coming from a lot of female producers

(05:29):
at NPR. Matthew Weener, the creator of mad Men, is
making headlines for allegations of sexual assaults. Yeah. What I
found so heartbreaking about the allegations of surrounding Matthew Weener
is that this happened to a writer on the show
Cater Gordon, and basically she her career was on an upswing. Right.
She won an Emmy for her work on mad Men.

(05:50):
She went from being an assistant to a writer, and
these allegations really had a big impact on her career.
She says, I had the Emmy, but instead of being
able to use that as a launchpad the rest of
my career, it became an anchor because I felt I
had to answer to the speculative stories in the press.
I eventually walked away instead of fighting back. So she's
someone whose career really never bounced back, and that her

(06:11):
career success actually became a burden because of her association
with this guy who she harassed her God, and then
we would be remiss to not mention Roy Moore, the
Alabama Senate nominee who is being asked now to step
aside by an unusual suspect, Mitch McConnell, who says, by

(06:32):
the way, I believe the women. I thought that was
an interesting Mitch McConnell quote after allegations of child molestation,
in response to allegations that he was basically hitting on
and assaulting fourteen year old girl. Yeah, watching our elected
leaders and lawmakers say things like, well, it wasn't non
consensual because she was into it, or it was actually romantic.

(06:56):
He didn't have sex with her, it was very romantic.
He would play guitar and be really sweet to her,
as if that's not disgusting. And also, yeah, and he
was victim blaming in his statements about it, saying, you
think it's a coincidence she waited all this time to
make these allegations right before my election, right before this
critical point in my career, And I'm thinking, dude, this

(07:19):
is the time, this is the time to take people down.
Like she's got the whole zeitgeist behind her. Of course
she's going to do this right now. I don't blame
her for exactly staying silent or not publicly getting the
attention that she deserves to call you out on this
b s exactly. So it definitely seems like we're in
a cultural moment where people who have been silent for
a long time feel like they are empowered to be
silent no more. And that's the thing I'm really happy

(07:42):
to see. I'm happy that people all along the spectrum
are calling out inappropriate workplace and sexual harassment because it's
you know, it's high time, and it's it seems like
do process is still due process, but now people are
maybe more likely to believe victims for the first time ever.
You know, mean, this is a great time to make
your voice heard if you are a victim, because the

(08:04):
likelihood of being believed. I don't think he's ever been higher, totally.
So taking it back to Louis c. K for a minute,
if you listen to our earlier episode about the me
to campaign, one of the things that came up a
lot is this idea of gossip and rumors and how
even though I think that we're conditioned to just dismiss
gossip and dismiss rumors and say, oh do you have
any proof? Oh, you know, is there any hard evidence,

(08:25):
a lot of times when it comes to things like
harassment and sexual assault, gossip and rumors can kind of
function as a way to warn others and to spread
the truth about what's actually happening. And so these Louis c.
K rumors have been around on the Internet and in
comedy scenes for a very long time. Right, if you're
all read into the comments section of certain feminist blogs,

(08:45):
or what's going on in comedy scenes. You've no doubt
heard these rumors, and the longest time, people would often say,
this is just rumors, this is just one person, this
is just one story, you know, dismissing them, and actually
it turned out to be very true. Yeah, I mean,
I think it's interesting if you look all the way
back towelve, Gawker made this really interesting editorial choice to

(09:06):
run a piece titled which beloved comedian likes to force
female comics to watch him jerk off, which was positive
as a question and really describe what was happening with
Louis c K. But they made the choice to not
name the suspect. I remember reading that article when it
was published back in twelve, and as soon as I

(09:28):
read it, I was like, I think it's Louis King
because he talks about masturbation, he does a lot, and
he just seemed I don't know, I didn't have any proof,
I didn't have any evidence. I just had a feeling.
I just had a feeling it was him. It's like
the rumor mill was fully functional. And later in April,
comedian Jen Kirkman talks about a quote known perv on

(09:51):
her podcast, without naming any names. Once again, she said,
and I quote, I had another guy who's a very
famous comic. He's probably at Cosby level at this point.
He is lauded as a genius. He's basically a French
filmmaker at this point. You know, new material every year.
He's a known perv, and there's a lockdown on talking
about him. His guy friends are standing by him, and

(10:12):
you can't say a bad thing about him. And I've
been told by people, well say it, then say it
if it's true. If I say it, my career is over.
My manager and my agent have told me that they
didn't threaten it. They just said it to me. They
just said to me, you know what, Jen, it's not
worth it, because then you'll be torn apart. Look at
the Cosby women. Something I find so telling about her

(10:35):
statement is that she doesn't think it was a threat.
It was just a fact. If you talk about this, yeah,
it's I mean, that's what's so scary about people at
the peak of their career success like Louis cy Kay.
I mean, he was kicking it and so to be
the wet blanket right, to be the the nay Sayer

(10:57):
about the beloved comedian, and it just comes with so
much personal risk, no one wanted to do it alone.
And furthermore, his manager, Dave Becky, was arguably even more
powerful than Louis himself was He managed some of the
biggest names in comedy. We're talking Amy Poehler as E's
snari people that you think of as you know, progressive,
funny people. And if you're a comedian who's up and coming,

(11:20):
you might really be afraid to cross someone that powerful,
who has a direct line with so many powerful comedians.
And once again, the entertainment industry is such a casual,
relationship driven industry, you know, Like I'd say all industries
are pretty relationship driven. But there's no HR department in

(11:41):
the comedian stand up circuit, you know what I mean.
There's no hierarchy, there's no real authority. There's just power
as derived from popularity and influence, and so there's no
it's like such a wild wild West. Yeah. In our
last met Too episode, we talked about how because Hollywood

(12:01):
really functions on you know, sexual desire and looks as
a currency, and how it really allows abusers to fester.
I think comedy kind of presents another interesting way of
framing that where it is relationships, it is personal connection,
it is having fond feelings about someone, are thinking, Oh,
this guy is really funny. This guy's a truth teller

(12:22):
that I think allows people who are doing bad things
to really get away with it unchecked. Yeah, exactly, So
what was he getting away with? So basically, he admitted
to masturbating in front of at least five women who
were also either writers or comedians or involved in the
comedy scene. Um. Sometimes he would barricade them and kind
of not let them, not let them leave a room

(12:44):
until he was finished. Um. One woman says that they
talked on the phone and then she realized through what
he was saying and how he was breathing, that he
was masturbating. Um. Yeah, it just really sounds I don't
even have the words for it. It's just such a
I would be so shocked. I mean. In one of
the anecdotes, the two women that he masturbatesed in fun
of they described not even having the time to take

(13:05):
off their winter coat, right exactly. This is the part
of the story I found so interesting and I'm glad
the New York Times decided to lead the story with this. Basically,
these two comedians, Daneman Goodman and Julia Woloff had landed
their big break, a chance to open the Comedy Arts
Festival in Aspen, Colorado, where Louis Kay was also performing. So,

(13:27):
of course, when he invited them to hang out in
his hotel room for a nightcap afterwards, they took him
up on the offer, thinking like, of course, this is
a good opportunity to network, which is true and should
be a thing that women can do. And they said
as soon as they sat down in his room, still
wrapped in their winter jackets and hats, Louis c k
asked if he could take out his penis. I'm sure

(13:49):
he didn't say it like that though, like do you
mind if I whip out my Like that's the kind
of opening line that Louis went with. And they said,
I thought it was a joke and laughed it off,
which is a normal reaction to something like that, that
Louise Ka is a dirty comedian, like he would joke
about something like that. He jokes about masturbation on the
show frequently. So then he did it and they were like,

(14:12):
he proceeded to take all of his clothes off, get
completely naked and start masturbating and they're like still wrapped
up in their jackets paralyzed. They were like, I didn't
know what to do. And I don't blame them, because
what the hell kind of a move was that? I mean,
I can't even fathom a grown man thinking that that

(14:33):
isn't all a consensual encounter when the people that you're
doing that they just got there. I mean, what is that? Well,
it's it's so clearly not a sexual it's not sexually
initiating something. It's clearly an assault, you know what I mean.
It's like a power move your I don't know. It's
so disrespectful at its core. It's not about a sexually

(14:58):
mutual exchange change of anything. It's like, this is what
I'm gonna do over you, Like I don't really care
about your thoughts or feelings about it. This is what
I'm gonna do. Honestly, I would love for the like
sex therapists out there to weigh in on the psychology
of why men would, why men do that? And men
do men do and Laura knows I don't understand. Then

(15:19):
if you if you know anything about my romantic life,
laurd knows. I don't know crap of that men, but
this is something that I just can't wrap my head around. Well,
there's also this narrative I've heard that's like, oh, he's
sexually damaged, Like, oh, he's got problems. That's the thing
that jumped at at me in a lot of the encounters,
and described that in the New York Times when the

(15:40):
women said after he asked, can I take out my
penis and started masturbating, that she said no, and that
his response was, oh, I have problems. And so it
does seem like whether or not that's an actual thing,
it does seem like c K fell back on this
idea of like, oh I have problems, I have sexual
hangups whatever, as an explanation for behavior that really just

(16:02):
can't be excused. I imagine if you walked into your
boss's room or your colleague's office and that happened. See
I think because it's the entertainment industry, because it was
a late night in a hotel room, the barriers seem
a little wishier and washier, a little more fluid. But
compare this to your office, like, compare this to your
professional domain. The women who were in that hotel room,
had just finished working with a professional colleague. Just because

(16:26):
it was in a hotel room does not lower the
bar of like decency. And a lot of people on
Twitter started saying, like, Wow, that's weird and messed up
and gross. But is it assault? Is this against the law?
You can't whip at you? I mean, there was real
tension around people getting on board immediately with that being
an assault. Definitely, I definitely saw that, and I thought

(16:48):
to myself, the only spectrum we have these days to
talk about sexual misconduct is is it a legal sexual
assault or no? Then our whole conversation is kind of well,
it's it just goes back to consent. We've got to
train all people of all genders what it looks like

(17:08):
to have consensual sex, because that is not a consensual exchange,
and that is at its core and aggressive one way move.
It's like, I really don't care if you say yes
or no, this is going to happen. I'm gonna do this.
This is me wielding power over you and fundamentally disrespecting you. Absolutely,
and I think he really saw that in c k
statement about what happened. So one thing I will say

(17:31):
about this statement is that he did flat out say
these allegations are true. I did these things. And so
having that for me, having that be sort of the
opening line, I thought, well, at least he's not going
through this whole rigamarole of their lying. At least he's
saying this happened, which is commendable. We can we can

(17:51):
say this is disgusting and terrible. And also he owned
up to it, and that's commendable because I think in
the state age, the what we expect from powerful men
who were accused of sexual assault or sexual harassment or
sexual conduct is right. It's like a script right away,
these allegations are false. I have a daughter, I have
a wife, like there's a playbook that usually happens there.

(18:16):
So low, though, That's what I realized. We were chatting
a lot when this stuff was breaking, and I was
talking with a lot of people in my life about it,
and I frankly realized that I was too easily impressed.
Is the bar so low for me? That just owning
up to it, even though he does not apologize and
says something pathetic like I never showed a woman my

(18:36):
without asking first, And I thought that's why it was okay.
Like I was playcated for all of five seconds before
I started talking about it with everyone around me. And
I read the New York Times piece out loud when
I was reading it and Brad was around, and I
read the statement and he just said, I'm not impressed.
And I realized, like, damn, I've been coming up in
a world where this kind of a statement was like

(19:00):
playcated me, and I felt sort of horrified by myself
in that moment. Well, if you checked out social media,
you're far from alone. I saw many people on Twitter
applauding his statement, saying this is a good model for
how men can own when they do something wrong and
how they can publicly own it. But here, and here's
the thing. Luba c K's whole stick is sort of

(19:20):
calculated vulnerability and sort of making you feel like he's
being honest and authentic. That's why his show was so good,
that's what resonates with his stand up. And so he
is shameful. He's shameful, ashamed of himself correct, which reminded
me of all the people I've ever dated in my
life except for Brad the boo. So I think I
was like, I got the psychological victimhood that he was playing.

(19:45):
But do you think it was authentic? I th think
he was authentically ashamed. Yeah, I do, so here's why
I disagree. I definitely think this is like your mileage
made very thing. And I saw people that I immensely
respect saying this is like he does seem like he's
owning this and that he understands. But just two months ago,
he was on TV promoting his gross movie, which We're

(20:06):
gonna get you in a second, saying these are rumors.
I've done nothing wrong. I'm not an answer for this.
And so even while that statement reads to me as
someone who is ashamed and feels bad and gets it,
gets why they've done something wrong, I don't feel like
you can go from I don't I don't have to
apologize for anything. I don't do anything wrong. In fact,
you're the one who's wrong for spreading rumors me. I

(20:27):
don't think he could go from there too, genuinely apologetic
and getting it in a series of months. Yeah, And
I guess that's actually what Brad pointed out to me,
which was I bet so many men out there have
these statements ready to go, but they're not going to
own it until they absolutely have to. That's the thing.
And so I want to see the guy who says,
you know what, I'm volunteering. I did something wrong and

(20:49):
they're probably all coming for me anyway, So let's just
get this out of the way now. Yeah, I want
to see that guy. Yeah. I don't feel like Louis
c K can. He has made a big show. He
went on Mark Marin the podcast and essentially lied. He
lied and said this never happened. It's a rumor. It
was a rumor about one night, and Mark Marin was like, yeah,
he lied to me on my own show. He came

(21:09):
into my garage but on my headphones, talking into my
microphone and lied. And so I just feel like, you know,
it's a no from me, it's a no from it. Yeah. Yeah,
that's very compelling. I'm convinced. And it actually really jarred
me in the same way that problematic fave Taylor Swift addition,
jarred me into realizing, oh, I forgive a lot of

(21:31):
racism from people that I adore, and that's pretty messed
up when it comes to Taylor Swift and when it
comes to Louis c K. Because I loved his comedy.
I was so easily placated by his book. But that's
the thing, that's how he gets you, like the comedy
sucks you in that way. And I think it's a
it's a nature of comedy because the stand up comedy

(21:51):
is about making people feel like you're telling the truth,
that you're that you're winning them over to how you
see the world. And Louis is great at that. That's
why it's comedy is so good. And so when I
saw that statement initially, I was like that was a
good statement. I had to take a step back and say,
wait a minute. He doesn't even say he's sorry. And
as Christina Catarucci points out over at Slate in his

(22:11):
own statement about his misconduct, he really messes up the
concept of consent in a way that I think folks
aren't really talking about enough. She says. Even so, Nestled
in the SKS admission effect quote these stories are true,
are several deliberate lies. C ks phrasing is cunning and specific.
Perhaps he did ask each woman if he could take
out his penis before he showed it to them, but

(22:32):
he doesn't say it they said yes, because many didn't.
Here c K is squeezing his history of harassment into
the narrative of misunderstood consent. He's claiming that, as an
adult man, he believed that repeatedly asking a woman in
his workplace to watch him master it in his office
was appropriate. The Times article says he proposed his favorite
sex act to the pair of women he didn't know
but who admired him as soon as they sat down

(22:54):
in her room wrapped in their winter jackets and hats.
When they quote lacked it off, he did it anyway,
c K. It would have his fans believe that he
honestly thought this would be erotically pleasing for the two
bundled up women that he truly believed that he had
their concerts exactly because it has nothing to do with
their interests or desires. He's totally disrespectful and ignorant of
and not interested in understanding what they want and desire

(23:17):
in that moment, because it sure's how it wasn't going
to be to watch him masturbate. Yes, duh, absolutely accurate.
We're gonna get into a little bit more about why
c K's allegations seemed a little bit different from the others.
After this quick break and we're back, and we were

(23:38):
just talking about Luis c K and really why it
was so tempting to maybe give him a pass to say, oh,
is his statement was good, And I really do think
it's because of how he functions in the comedy world.
First of all, as The New York Times points out,
the man is a comedy legend. He's so successful. He
sold out Madison Square Garden, his show is huge. He's
really should have known as kind of a eastmaker and

(24:00):
the comedy in Hollywood. So I wonder if that played
into why these allegations went unaddressed for so long. Yeah.
You know what's ironic and now very horrifying, is that
Louis c K built a reputation as the unlikely conscience
of a comedy scene. As written in The New York Times,
they go on to say, he made audiences laugh about hypocrisy,

(24:22):
especially male hypocrisy. And I think that's exactly why men
like c K can be so insidious, because they make
you believe that they're these woke progressive feminists. They get it,
they get what the women are going through, they get
their own role in it. But just saying the right
stuff about gender doesn't actually make you a feminist exactly.

(24:42):
His work really underscored and played up the grossness of men,
which made him kind of endearing. For instance, take his
classic joke about how dating men is dangerous. He says,
how do women still go out with guys when you
consider that there is no greater threat to women than
men were the number one threat to women globally and

(25:03):
historically we are the number one cause of injury and
mayhem to women, which, by the way, I never thought
was that funny because it's so freaking true, you know.
I mean, that was like a scary, real joke. But
he got people laughing because he's the oh, like, we're
so bad, like terrible men, like oh self deprecation on

(25:23):
steroids totally. And I have just a hard time seeing
through this when it's happening, and like the guy is
in my good graces. But after that that, it's so
easy to call this out for what it is exactly.
And you know who did that beautifully is Francesca Ramsey,
who really articulated this in the perfect way on stage

(25:45):
just earlier this week. I think what really is the
worst is like looking back on his material and realizing
that he was doing all of this stuff to get
like head pats for being like a woke white guy
who like understands it's hard to be a woman like you, dude.
He was telling jokes about himself. He was going up
and telling jokes about how hard it was to be
a woman because guys are cools, and he was talking

(26:08):
about himself, and he was getting millions of dollars for it.
And it's just, honestly, I could not have put it
better myself. Um, I think it's I think she's absolutely
spot on, right. We all kind of bought into this
idea of Louis c k as this feminist truth teller.
There's actually a Salon article about all about how he's
a male feminist comedian and it's this new thing, and

(26:28):
I just think we bought it, and he was making
millions doing it. Underscores to me just how enraged we
all should be about it. Absolutely, And I think the
fact that we gave him money for telling jokes about
his own gross disturbing behavior really say something about us.
Over at g Q, they write c K two had
a rep for being painfully honest, particularly in regard to

(26:49):
his own shortcomings as a husband, father, and man. In general.
Looking back, it feels like c k's entire ubra was
less a deployment of harsh truths than a deft way
of laundering them, masking his truly unforgivable behavior. He was
strategically vulnerable, always in control of his own narrative. He
almost certainly got more Catharsis out of his act than
his audience did. C K also had a habit of

(27:10):
presuming his own personal flaws, his inner racism, his sexual hangouts, etcetera,
were universal aspects of the human condition. I know that
playbook well, and it's often used by a white dude
who thinks everyone else also thinks like a white dude,
which I'm sure many white dudes do, but like it doesn't.
It's not exactly inclusive comedy like that. That's why that

(27:31):
joke about men being the number one deadliest threat to
women was not funny to me. Right, But again, I
think a certain kind of man see c K and says,
if I think like him, I'm a good guy. I'm
a progressive. I can be gross, I can do all
these gross things. I mean. He had an episode of
his show Louis where he basically tries to rape Pamuela

(27:53):
Alden's character, and it's sort of framed as, Oh, he's
just this bumbling guy who doesn't know how to how
to be with women, and looking back, it's like, why
did we entertain that? Why did we allow that to
be wrapped up and kind of a you know, a
fluffy bow. Another episode that I actually had forgotten about
until just now is Louis. You know, he's this sort

(28:14):
of chronically single, can't get a date, hapless guy who
doesn't understand women, and it's supposed to be lovable on
the show. He goes to a supermarket and there's a
black woman behind the checkout counter and he buys like
a dozen roses and he says, these are for you,
and she's like, I can't accept these roses. I don't
want them. And he's like, no, I'm I bought them
for you. I bought them for you. She's like, no,
I'm not interested. He then waits until she gets off

(28:37):
of her job. He follows her back to her apartment
and this is New York, so she lives in like
hard limits and it's involves, you know. He gets on
the subway with her and he goes back to her apartment,
and it's like trying to woo her after she's made
it very very clear that she's not interested, and the
episode is played for sort of. He's this romantic guy
who's trying his best to woo this girl who could

(28:59):
not have made it any more clear that she's not
into it. And what's worse is that the girl actually
gives this very pointed kind of monologue about what's happening
and why it's messed up. She says, you think this
is gonna be something where you come to the hood
and like come to Harlem and like make my day
and like buy me flowers, and it's supposed to be
so nice. I'm not into it. It's not romantic, it's

(29:21):
not cool, and you're thinking, oh, maybe he gets it.
But then here's the kicker. It's played for laughs because
as he's leaving her apartment, he sees another black woman
and they have like what is supposed to be humorous sex.
So basically essentially stalks a woman all the way through
her work day on the subway back to her home.

(29:43):
After she's like you need to leave her, I'm basically
calling the coups. He sleeps with another woman and it's
supposed to be funny and charming, and I wonder where
we all just caught up in that and exactly what
Francesca was saying, this sort of bumbling white guy progressivism
that we kind of got dupe in at think k
that was cool. I think he is playing up the

(30:04):
very real problem that our society has on understanding consent.
I think the confusion around consent is honest. Clearly he
doesn't understand that when your doubt in the workplace, even
if it is a hotel room after a comedy show,
in front of two women who could not have looked
or seemed less interested, is not okay. So I think

(30:25):
this like hapless learning what consent means, Like clearly he
needs to understand what eighteen year olds are hopefully getting
through their heads a little more. Then it's like a
generational thing. Not that that's a pass, but I think
his comedy resonated because there is real confusion in this

(30:46):
country about what consent actually means. And once you add
power in a sense of entitlement to it, which white
men in our country seem to have an oversized amount
of right now and historically, then that's a that's a
pretty dangerous comment nation, a lack of respect around consent,
an outsized estimation of your own awesomeness right about your

(31:08):
own sex appeal perhaps or your entitlement and your power,
and an actual outsized amount of power in this country.
I would also go further and say an outsized estimation
of your own feminism right, because I do think him
being sort of appointed as quote feminist dude perhaps did
give him a lot of leeway to make art that

(31:28):
we weren't super critical about, in addition to getting away
with things that were really inappropriate. That's why I love
this piece that Sarah Dittman put out at a new Statement.
She says it's typical of the low standards men benefit
from that simply describing how men are bad for women
could be enough to get c. K lauded as a
hero of the women's movement, in the same way that
a male primary school teacher who simply shows up for

(31:49):
work long enough can find himself glass elevator to the
head of leadership. Just dropping some about sex and power
can be enough to have a man seen appointed to
top feminist and if like seeking he seems to be
admitting to personal foibles as he goes, then he can
be praised all the more for his honesty. Yeah, the
bar is so low. The bar is so low for

(32:10):
male feminists is in the public eye and the entertainment industry,
And isn't interesting how a lot of times these notable
male feminists find themselves kind of dealing with this kind
of thing. I'm thinking of folks like Jamie Kilsten, Josh Sweden,
all of these men that sort of appoint themselves as
these feminist heroes. Sometimes they end up being kind of gross,
I'm kind of sleazy and using their feminist street cred

(32:31):
to prey on women. Yeah. I can almost hear the
guy listening though, saying like, what am I too much
of a feminist now? It's like kind of how Matt
McGorry got a lot of shade after he was like
a little too from I almost wonder if it's one
of those Malcolm Gladwell style sticking points where when you're
you're like woke, and then you get to a point

(32:52):
where it's like it's too woke, and then you're like
something's about to turn it down. Yeah, something's about to
It's like something that something has to give. It's the
it's the idea of like um pass the mic exactly
just as a personal thing. When a man vocally and
loudly calls himself a feminist, I'm always a little skeptical.
I'm like, I just feel as though if you actually
are truly down with the cause, you're not just talking

(33:15):
about it and tweeting about it. You're actually out there
being a good guy. You're actually out there passing, passing
the mic and elevating women's vas. You're actually out there
checking your bros when they do something inappropriate to a
woman when they can't call a woman. You're actually out
there walking the walk, not just talking the talk. Yes,
you know. I actually heard Wade Davis speak at Mobilizing

(33:38):
the Power of Women, the elevat Networks conference in New
York earlier this year, and when he got up as
one of the handful of keynote speakers in the morning
of the conference, the first thing he said was, listen,
I'm not here to get brownie points. I think there's
a lot of things wrong with the men who get
up at these conferences just get brownie points. So like

(34:00):
is not about me, And I come to you humbly
and like I'm here to learn and listen. And I
was just like, damn, you don't get that kind of
a message from a lot of speakers period, but especially
as an expert in diversity and an inclusion which he
is a former NFL player, an educator, and a diversitating

(34:20):
inclusion consultant. You know, he was incredibly tactful and how
he walked the walk, which it definitely your actions speak
louder than your words when it comes to this kind
of thing. Well, I think these kind of big public
moments like that can really be models for how men
can get it right and men can get it wrong.
And I gotta say I was a little disappointed by

(34:41):
one of our faves, John Stewart, looking back at footage
of him being asked about these allegations, it's mortifying. Basically,
he dismisses it as quote some internet thing, right, he
doesn't even really take the rumor seriously and he's kind
of just brushes them off. And that video today, you know,
it's a few years old, but watching it in light
of the recent allegations coming out to be true, it

(35:03):
really doesn't play well. But conversely, I thought it was
interesting that thirty year x Judy Friedlander really showed a
different model for how Ckse comedy colleagues could really hold
him accountable and support the women were coming forward. When
Freedlander was asked about sexual assault in the comedy world,
he said, there's a big rumor. I think you know
who I'm talking about. I've only ever read things on Gawker.

(35:24):
I got a loaded to it a year ago when
it was online. I don't generally deal with him. He's
been to me, so I know nothing about it. But
if anyone in the comedy community has been abused by anyone,
I support them a hundred percent. Whoever's doing it, no
matter how big or small, I hope they do time
for the crime. And you know, I bet that wasn't
an easy thing to do. I bet that did have
consequences for him. But there's a right way to be

(35:47):
an ally when you're a man, and there's a wrong
way to be an ally when you're a man. And
I think moments like this really show us how folks
can get it right or get it wrong. Yeah, and
it it involves taking risks to your own personal professional
credibility or potential, you know, like calling out like the
big fish in the scene does not come without consequences.

(36:09):
Absolutely absolutely, Let's take a quick break and talk a
bit more about what this means for c K's movies
and for the media landscape going forward. And we're back.
We were just talking about Louis c K and sort
of how he was able to function as a creep

(36:31):
in Hollywood for so long. And I would be ever
missed to talk about Louis c K without mentioning that creepy,
creepy movie I Love You Daddy. To me, there is
no better evidence of how secure c K felt in
his status and in his standing in Hollywood and in
the New York comedy scene, and the fact that he

(36:53):
felt it was appropriate and a good idea to write, direct,
and self finance a movie called I Love You Daddy
that deals heavily with a seventeen year old high school
student possibly having sexual relations with a much older man,
mind you, in the style of other potentially noted creep

(37:15):
Woody Allen. Yeah basically is a film whose plotline plays
homage to the Woody Allen era in which, like this creative, fumbling,
bumbling older man finds inspiration in a muse who is
like basically barely legal or in this case, not legal. Yeah,
if you've ever seen Manhattan, I Love You Daddy, Basically

(37:37):
it's an homage to Manhattan, wherein I think it's Brookshields
with fifteen is the love interest for very adult Woody Allen,
and it's just seen as a thing. And I think
the fact that Louis c k decided to pay homage
to Woody Allen, in my mind, it just makes me think, like, wow,
you really were Like this is like a this is

(37:59):
not subtle, right, Actually I have a Madison had a
great tweet about something else, but it reminded me so
much of this. This is like a movie wherein the
serial killer sends taunting letters to the police. It's like,
we get it, dude, you're a creep, Like how many
other ways could you try to tell us that you're
a creep? It's so insane and you're right like the
hootspah on this guy to think that he could get

(38:20):
away with that while he's busy doing this kind of
jerk off, you know, assault type strategy, Like why would
you do that? Because you no longer fear consequences because
you're very powerful and you're untouchable, or so he thought,
and you're powerful friends will all fall in line to
protect you, because you're a great comedian like that, Like,

(38:42):
it's no question to me that he very clearly felt secure,
secure enough to make what I feel Like it's such
an obvious, horrible idea of a movie, particularly in this
cultural climate, Like, even if these allegations about him never
came to light, even if they never came to be true,
maybe a movie about your seventeen year old daughter having
sex with a grown man and your sort of moral

(39:04):
ambiguity around that is weird regardless it to make a
movie like that in this climate and think it will
just be fine. Yeah, And while to be clear, we
have not seen this film ourselves. Alexandra Schwartz and The
New Yorker sums it up in really what she describes
as the only generous way to read I Love You, Daddy,

(39:28):
which she says is as a portrait of male cowardice.
What kind of man would be so shamefully pathetic as
to avoid confronting the famous geezer who may or may
not be screwing his underage daughter because that geezer has
offered to read his latest script, The same man presumably
who winces but doesn't intervene, as his Dumbo comedian buddy

(39:49):
Charlie Day describes at gleeful length all the ways that
the man's daughter has probably been done spring Break, As
is often the case with the roles that Louis writes
for himself, if there is a strong note of masochistic
pleasure in this extreme passivity. Louis famously obsessive and controlling
of his work. He writes, he directs, the edits, he acts,

(40:12):
he produces, he distributes, he does it all. Likes to
play losers who are at the mercy of others. Often
those others are women. It's hard not to wonder, in
the wake of Thursday's revelations, to what extent Louis has
used this persona to shield his reputation. But cowardice is
not just an avoidance of a moral stance. It is

(40:34):
a moral stance too, and not a flattering one. So basically,
in the movie, he he's got this powerful older filmmaker
who he really admires, who he doesn't necessarily want to
confront about whether or not he's sleeping with his teenage daughter,
And like we're supposed to empathize with that kind of ambiguity, right,
and just like you were talking about before, how his

(40:55):
comedy and his show kind of served to launder his
own behavior and sort of put this sort of mask
of what does it all mean? Let's ask quote tough
questions about bad behavior of men and just asking questions
right Like, I feel like the film really sort of
puts a veneer of this is these are smart, alreadie

(41:17):
people having smart already conversations about whether it's cool to
have sex with the fourteen year old. It almost sounds
like he's using his art or the this character that
he seems to play over and over again as a
way of denying his own responsibility in his own life. Absolutely,

(41:39):
maybe I'm not doing this, Maybe it's all just happening
to me exactly, infinite victimhood that honestly, I dated people
every every like dude I've dated. It is like I'm
just the victim here, and a lot of the controlling
and abuse of men that I've encountered in my life,
whether I was in a relationship with them or not,
are constantly feeling like victor, like hapless SAPs that just

(42:02):
you know, I just want to love and be loved.
I think Louis plays that up so much. And I
think it's no coincidence that you see that in men
who can come off a little controlling in Toxic. Is
that constant shirking of responsibility by seeing you as a
victim of your own life instead of having any agency
or power or responsibility over your actions so common place.
It's so common, And I think kind of back to

(42:25):
the movie. Even though I think I've talked at length
about how gross I think this movie is even beyond that,
something that really troubles me is that we give men
like Loui the space to tell these stories. I'm in
general sick of the overcrowding of our media landscape with
stories like this, stories about men grappling with you know,

(42:48):
wanting to younger women and all of that. I just
am done with that, right. Something that I often say
that people give me a lot of heat for is
I don't actually read books by men. I'm just sick
of it. Something against men. I just I get it.
I feel like we have heard these stories so often.
What new thing could Louis c K tell us about,

(43:10):
you know, the human experience? Right? And I just feel like,
for so long we have given men this pass to
make whatever kind of stories they make and people just
take it seriously. Well, that's why Tigna Taro's One Mississippi
is so refreshing. Which, by the way, did you hear
her interview that chucked in on It's a it's a

(43:30):
amazing I love Taro And again, she was one of
the earliest people to really call c K out. And
that's another thing that really pissed me off about the situation.
How many women, how many women showrunners, women front runners,
are gonna go down because of c ks Pamula Auden's
better things. She is out there like doing her own
show about complicated women made of a certain age, stories

(43:54):
that you don't see. Is his situation going to like
taint her project? Is situation going to taint? Take Nataro's
project because he sort of like helped her get famous.
Because when you look at allegations of wrongdoing by men,
so often we expect the women in their orbit to
answer for their wrong doings. Look at Hillary Clinton, look

(44:14):
at Huma ab Deen, right, how often do we expect
women who are in the orbit of powerful men, who
who mess up, who mess up? How often do we
look at them and say, like, where was she? What
did she do it was a relationship stand by your
man or not kind of song gets played over and
over again, but hopefully because Louis E. K is not

(44:35):
romantically attached to any of these women, that won't happen.
But when I think about Pamula Alden, I only think
about her in relation to c K, and I think
that there was a creatively correct I was just reading
earlier today about how in comedy for women, so often
women aren't taken seriously as creators until they are attached
to a powerful man. I love Ray's Insecure, but it

(44:57):
was really Larry Wilmore kind of putting a stamp on
that her where she is and got her that recognition
and saying, Okay, we'll give her some legitimacy as a
content creator. Yeah. And I feel like either way is
such a good example, like to your Natara of like
maybe we should give women comedians more money to make
more creative stuff. There are so many more stories to

(45:18):
be told than this Woody Allen bs rerun absolutely absolutely correct,
and again I'm hoping that this moment will really be
a sea change, not just around the fact that we're
sick of powerful men getting away with sex crimes. But
also we're sick of the stories of men dominating our
media landscape. I hope this moment is a galvanizing one

(45:39):
for women content creators and women comedians, women writers, women directors,
and every aspect from agents and managers to people who
are behind the camera. I want this to be a
moment that says, listen, men have had their run in Hollywood.
It's our turn. Clearly, you're messing everything up. Clearly you
can't keep it in your pants. Clearly we're all sick
of it. An you know what else, We're sick of

(46:00):
your stories because they're whack and tired. Sit out and
let us have a chance at the helm. Yes. Also
did o that for politics? Yes, and all the things.
Really like everything. I know, people chafe at that idea
of like, you've had your turn, give us a shot.
But that is valid. That is a valid and I
think I couldn't have said it better myself. The good

(46:20):
news is that you don't have to look very far
for evidence that the market is hungry for more stories,
not the Woody Allen rerun. Even this past weekend, women
led films were crushing it at the box office. The
New Francis McDorman movie called Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri,

(46:41):
open to the third highest purse screen average for any
movie this year, with a stellar three dollar take from
just four screens. It played alongside the movie with the
highest purse screen opening of that year, the Greta Gerwig
written and directed and Sores Ronan starring Lady Bird, which
earned per screen in its debut and widened in its

(47:05):
second weekend to become a bona fide specialty cinema smash hit,
which f y I. I saw Ladybird over the weekend,
and honestly, it doesn't surprise me that a movie that
treats young women as actual thinking beings who have desires
and needs and all of that, as fully authentic people
was a smash hit this past week and and it
can really be seen in tandem with Luis c K's

(47:28):
I Love You Daddy. We're in his seventeen year old daughter.
It's just this object of desire right exactly exactly that.
And so I don't think it's a coincidence at all
that these authentic women fronted movies with these strong female
protagonists have been doing dang busters in light of all
these horrible allegations against powerful men in Hollywood. I also
see this playing out on the small screen. By the way,

(47:49):
how I am hungry for women led dramas. I think
The Crown was doing incredibly well. We've already discussed how
Reese Weatherspoon's production studio is changing the game with things
like Big Little Lies. I think as a TV fiend
who doesn't really actually get to the movies very often,
I don't know why. I'm not really a movie person,
but I am a TV series binge watcher extraordina um.

(48:12):
I see this playing out in my Netflix account as well,
and I want more of it. It's kind of like
music too. I give my dad and a lot of
the guy friends in my life a lot of credit
for introducing me to some of the most iconic bands
that I've ever loved, a lot of classic rock. And
then I realized, in the past decade, you don't listen
to any women lead bands, Like, what is wrong with you?

(48:36):
Let me introduce you to some bands that you've been
missing out on. As a musical artist, who you've been
missing out on? Although to his credit, my dad did
introduce me to Janelle Money. Oh what ye dadda dad?
Aries my Jewish white father went to a Jenelle Money
concert solo in Hartford, Connecticut, twenty minutes of our house,

(48:58):
in the pouring rain, stayed to like meet her backstage.
Pretty sure he was the only white Jewish suburban father
in the whole place, by the way, and got her signed.
I was sure. She was like, where's your adopted black daughter? Oh?
He was so proud. I love it. I love it well,
sminthy listeners, we want to hear from you. What was

(49:20):
your take on Louis's statement about these allegations? Did it
seem genuine to you? Why am I not? What's your
take on why men masturbade in front of women who
are non consenting? And did anybody else sort of catch
themselves like me being too easily placated and then thankfully
getting enraged all over again the more I read about this,
and is that problematic? Like do you find yourself too

(49:42):
easily placated by the celebrities you formerly admired? Um in
a statement of quote unquote apology like this one, It's
easy to do, totally understandable. So hit us up on
social media. You can find us on Instagram at stuff
Mom Never Told You. On Twitter, at mom Stuff podcast
and as always on email at mom stuff at how
stuff works dot com. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm