September 23, 2009 • 25 mins
American women have a wide range of options when it comes to forms of address. Where did all these honorifics come from? How do women decide which one to adopt? Discover the fascinating story of Ms., Mrs. and Ms. in this podcast from HowStuffWorks.com.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to step Mom Never told you?
From house stuff works dot com. Hey thereon, Welcome to
the podcast. This is Kristen and this is Molly, So Molly.
(00:20):
We got a lot of response from our wonderful mom
Stuff listeners about our podcast on why women keep or
give up their maiden names. Yes, everyone's story is fascinating. Yeah.
We got great stories from guys and girls who kept
their maiden name, guys who took their wife's names, all
(00:40):
sorts of versions of of what they did with their
last names when they got married. But one question that
came up a lot in these listener emails was about
what to do if you are a woman who keeps
her maiden name and you want to signify that you
were married, but still of the your maiden name, you
(01:01):
don't have the same last name as your husband. What
do you do? For instance, I will refer to this
email from a listener named Lucy, and Lucy kept her
maiden name when she got married and she says um.
Among all the questions I received is one, how will
people know if you're married? If you don't have the
same name as your husband, and I was interested to
(01:21):
see if you have any data or thoughts with regard
to what title women who keep their maiden name prefer
to adopt. I don't feel like a MSS because I've
not taken my husband's name, and MS seems to suggest
that I'm divorced, that I've divorced a lot of people.
So I've stuck with miss for now. But even this
has created problems recently when I was applying for car
insurance and the website wouldn't permit me to state that
(01:43):
I was a MISS and married. Yeah, so sticky situation.
It is very sticky because you know, we got email
from listeners who are like, Mrs So and so is
my husband's mother if I haven't taken that last name so,
and you know, if you're addressing wedding invitations to people,
what do you put? Yeah, what's the etiquette for it?
And then some people have hang ups with the title
(02:04):
miss because it seems to have, uh, I don't know,
political connotations these days that they might not like. So
so we decided that where the connotations, let's sake, let's
take this maiden Names Part two and look at the
difference between Ms Mrs miss and try to figure this
out and answer some of else questions. So let's start
(02:26):
with um, just the basic etymology of mrs. Okay, because
back in the day, you know, your mom was probably
Mrs Edmunds. My mom was, yeah, you know what I mean. UM.
That was you know, the general title that the American
wives gave themselves. So, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, UM,
(02:47):
mrs was an abbreviation of mistress and um. It was
the plural from the French madam, and the pronunciation mrs.
Was considered vulgar until at least the eighteenth century, and
it was considered one's wife from around nineteen twenties, so
it actually hasn't been around as long as I thought
it had been. So it was weller because people from
(03:09):
very early on got this connotation with um. The French brothels,
if you will, There were madame's operating these nightclubs where
shady dealings were done. But originally just mistress was meant
to show that you've had power over underlings, basically run
out a state. Then that meant that you had uh,
you know, maybe servants that you were taking care of.
(03:31):
It was just a position of power getting often here
in older literature, the the the term mistress of the house.
She's the one who takes care of all the house affairs.
She's not necessarily someone's wife, and she wasn't necessarily the
woman that your husband is having affair with. Like that
connotation came along much later as well. And then on
(03:52):
the flip side, you have miss, which was usually used
just to denote a younger girl. Right, so to abbreviate mistress,
they got mrs. Right, And so then to say, okay,
mrs is sort of an older lady with this power.
The young miss of the house, yes, has no power
yet she's going to school. Yes, I don't know why
that required accents um. But then in the nineteenth century,
(04:16):
what we've got is the Industrial Revolution, and so more
women head off to the workplace. They're not just stuck
in these big old estates anymore. And for one reason
or another, the other people that they're working with one
to know if they're married or not. Social availability, Yeah,
who who was available in this sweatshop? So the use
of ms versus mss to define whether or not you
(04:37):
were married, um, came out as a result of women
in the workplace, and I guess men wanting to know
whether or not they could course them. So then another
common thing for women in the workplace was to be
a secretary. Yes, and the secretaries would type up all
the correspondence for their boss. And there's the question of
(04:57):
if you're sending a letter to a lady and you
don't know if she's a miss or mrs what do
you do? You don't want to offender. That was sort
of the first real instance of miss as this um
generic term for a woman. Yeah, this is something that
these secretaries came up with, and the first use of miss. Well,
the Oxford English Dictionary attributes the first formal use of
(05:18):
miss to a book called the Simplified Letter, which was
published in nineteen fifty two for the National Office of
Management Association. Right, so if you're a secretary, this is
the book you get, and it says when you don't
know how to address a woman, just put miss in there. Yeah,
makes sense, um, But some people do um date the
first use of miss all the way back to seventeen
(05:38):
sixty seven when they said that it appeared on the
tombstone of a woman named Sarah Spooner and it was
again it was just another abbreviation, abbreviation for mistress like
mrs m R S was. So originally it's just this abbreviation.
It's this way to UM, you know, avoid confusion and
letter writing. And then the feminists got ahold of it,
and they got ahold of it through these Secretary Aerl handbooks. Right,
(06:01):
we have second wave feminism which comes up in the
nineteen sixties, in nineteen seventies, and their tagline, one of
the taglines at least of the movement was uh, personal
is political, And it's really this idea of women changing
how they are perceived UM in their daily lives through
UM political actions. And in nineteen seventy, the National Organization
(06:23):
for Women UM made a formal request for or past
the formal resolution calling for the use of miss to
denote other, single, married, whatever, so that women would no
longer have to be defined in terms of whether or
not that they were connected to another man. Because as
a mister, anybody who's a mister single, single, married, divorced, widowed, whatever,
(06:48):
he's going to be MR his whole life. Everyone's amster.
So they were thinking, by definition, there should be a
term that all women can be as well. And if
you've listened to the Maiden Name podcast along with this,
is sort of the same movement. Hey, A, don't change
your name. When you're introduced to someone as Mrs. You know,
John Wayne, you are putting yourself out in the world
as this person's wife. And by being Mss Molly Edmonds.
(07:13):
I guess if I married John Wayne, then I'm presenting
the world. I'm presenting myself to the world as me
as opposed to this person's property. I don't know why
I thought of John Wayne. I don't know what. I'm
picturing your wedding photos right now, and it's kind of
awesome Wild West wedding. Yes, um. But the interesting thing
about this push for MISS to become adopted by a
(07:33):
lot of women is the number one force holding out
against MISS, the anti MISS faction, led by The New
York Times. Yeah, this was amazing to me. In the research,
you know, there there was some quote I read that
at one point when The New York Times was describing
a party that UM Gloria Steinham hosted, they had to say,
you know, Miss Steinham, who works at MS magazine. So
(07:57):
the only way they had referred to MSS was relation
to the magazine. So the New York Times basically holds
this editorial standard, like we're not going to change to MISS,
even though every other newspaper is doing it. It's just
it's we don't need it. Yeah, they got flak from
other publications as well. I think Time published a piece
in the maybe late seventies early eighties lambast in the
(08:17):
New York Times for not switching over to MISS because
a lot of other major news outlets had adopted miss
as the honorific title for women. And it wasn't until
nineteen four, when Geraldine Ferraro is running on the Democratic
ticket for vice president, that the New York Times finally caves.
Gerlen Ferraro was married to a man named John Zacharo.
(08:38):
I may not be pronouncing that right, but she kept
her main names. So she was gerald and Ferraro married
to John Zacharrow, so she should have been Mrs Zacharo,
but she kept her maiden name. Now, what she wanted
to be called was either Miss Ferraro because she liked
that sort of terminology that these people had adopted, or
Congresswoman Ferraro. Um. But you know, there was this debate
(08:59):
with George H. W. Bush and he made this big
deal of calling her Mrs Ferraro. Yeah, she would refer
to she referenced him as Vice President Bush, and he
would come back at her with, well, Mrs Ferraro, right,
And you know, it was seen as this move to
put her like distinctly in a domestic sphere as opposed
woman who could hold a leadership role. And I do
remember reading that when Biden debated Palin that one of
(09:20):
the biggest mistakes he could have made was to have
said Mrs Palin as opposed to Governor Palin. So there's
this big um sticky situation in spearheaded by Jail and Ferraro.
And this is only when The New York Times says, okay,
do you denote the fact that she's this woman in
a certain situation, We're going to call her Ms Ferraro
to take out sort of these politics of being married
(09:41):
or not right. And I think that I think the
New York Times still does use mrs on occasion because
one article that I read recently, I was talking about
the number of UH congresswomen who go by mms and
some who prefer mrs. Like I want to say that
um Olympius Snow for instance, is a miss, whereas Hillary Clinton,
(10:04):
I think is actually Mrs Clinton. And see, that's the
thing is at this point, because it doesn't really catch
on the way the feminists designed it to. But the
fact that The New York Times is hounding out shows
that not every woman immediately was like, yeah, let's all
be missed. Yeah. One thing that one kind of strange
childhood memory. I don't know why it's stuck in my
head so much, Molly, but I remember um being pretty young,
(10:27):
and my mom was a teacher, and this was probably
in you know, late eighties, early nineties, and I remember
her complaining about her the school she taught forcing the
we're not forcing, but I wanted to institute women just
going by miss. All the female teachers no longer being
miss or mrs just doing miss across the board, probably
(10:49):
to simplify things. Um, And I remember her complaining and saying,
you know what, this is not right that my school
was trying to turn me into Miss Conger because I
am Mrs Conger. Yeah, I've been Mrs Conger for years
and years and years, and I don't like the sound
of miss to be to be honest, I mean, it's
sort of the same thing when you're just signed to
change your maiden name. If you've already been Mrs So
and so for however many years, it's not natural necessarily
(11:12):
to just all of a sudden become Miss so and so. Yeah,
and on the flip side of I'm sure there are
plenty of women out there who would consider miss to
feel far more empowering than mrs or for people like
HS Molly who are unmarried women, I wouldn't necessarily like
to call myself Miss Conger. It does seem a little
demeaning when a guy calls me miss Conger, like you
(11:33):
could have pat me on the head, and you know,
it makes you sound very small, Like I think those
age connotations are still there. But you know this connotation
of miss Now, people see miss you know, attached to
Edmunds or Conger and they probably just assume, well, that's
because she's of a certain age and still unmarried. They
might see it on other women as a sign of
being divorced, like I think now there's this connotation because uh,
(11:55):
the merried women don't necessarily want to backtrack and become
miss so and so. That if you're um miss so
and so, that you're trying to hide something, you know,
the fact that you're unmarried, divorced, or a raging feminist.
And a lot of the studies that I found about
the use of MISS, it kind of echoes all of this,
saying that uh, miss hasn't replaced really hasn't replaced missrs
(12:16):
on a wide scale, women are still choosing I'd say
it's probably UM, but it has more of a replacement
for MISS. Yes, I think we are getting rid of
the MISS except for young girls. But it's still this
choice about whether you want to adopt all this, you know,
for for lack of a better term, feminist baggage. If
it was the it's the same thing we discussed in
our feminism podcast where people don't really like this label
(12:39):
of feminist and so as a result, they may not
like this label of title that the feminist came up
with and pushed for. But one thing only that that
surprised me when I was researching all of this, because
you're when you're referring to feminist baggage. I found UM
a couple of studies UH on people's perceptions towards women
who labeled themselves as MISS as opposed to MISS or mrs.
(13:02):
And I was kind of expecting the results to say that,
you know, people perceive women who call themselves MISS as
being more you know, uptight and rigid and whatever go
down the list, um, But it was actually quite the opposite.
People who are labeled labeled themselves as MSS are perceived
simply as more having more control over their lives, maybe
(13:26):
being better achievers um, and better educated and having more um.
I think the term they used was agency over their world. UM.
At the same time, they were perceived as less communal,
but nevertheless still very powerful as individuals, which is why
I think you see MISS used a lot in the workplace.
We're reading this article that said a lot of women
(13:48):
are miss so and so in the workplace, and then
when they go home their missus so and so, and
it may just be for ease. You know, you're taking
your kid to school, and it's easier to say, you know,
I'm Mrs x X being the same last name, it's
child's last name. So um. They were talking sort of
about this, these dual lives that women lead, where in
their workplace there this very strong and dependent woman as
(14:09):
defined by their miss whereas when they go home they'll
still take on these traditional roles almost you know, the
writer positive that maybe it was to prove that their
success in their job hadn't defeminized them in some way. So, well,
if we do have these women who plenty of women
who are MISS sometimes and their MSS other times, or
for women like us who are unmarried, and we could
(14:32):
be MSS or we could be miss, what is what
is the etiquette? Let's answer our let's answer our listeners questions. Okay,
let's turn to Emily Post. Yes, Emily Post the maven
of social etiquette. Yeah, basically, um, as far as business terms,
it is true, MS is the way to go. Yeah.
I mean, if it went in doubt, I would go
MISS because if you assume that it's Mr and Mrs
(14:56):
so and so, that can be just as offensive. I
think is doing it the other way. Now, according to
Emily Post, now her example is someone named Jane Johnson. Yes,
this is the maiden named Jane Johnson. Emily Post says
that if you are married Jane Johnson and you keep
that maiden name, your new formal address is MS. Jane Johnson,
(15:17):
which is also your form of address. If you are single,
you're still and your maiden name unmarried, you can still
be Miss Jane Johnson. And but if you're married and
you use your husband's name socially, then in your husband's
last name is Kelly, then obviously you would be Miss
Jane Kelly in social settings. But what about divorce Molly. Now,
if you're divorced, you can choose them to keep the mrs.
(15:41):
It seems like I could be confusing, but you can
still mean Mrs Jane Kelly because someone someone will keep there.
I mean, if you got kids and you're trying to
match your kids, you might keep it. Um. So instead
of being Mrs John Kelly, who in this hypothetical on
my post situation is who she's married to, you would
still be Mrs Jane Kelly UM or Miss Jane Kelly.
Or if you got back to the main name, then
you can be Miss Jane Johnson. So basically, once you're divorced,
(16:03):
it's just a grab bag if you is. Yeah, okay,
So if you're addressing an invitation to a couple, um,
this is probably the most confusing scenario if the couple's
married and she's using the maiden name as opposed to
using the husband's name socially or just taking it all together. Um, Okay, Mary,
using maiden name, it would be Mr John Kelly and
Miss Jane Johnson Ms. Jane Johnson and Mr John Kelly.
(16:26):
Because you don't always have to put the man first. Finally,
it's strides we've made now. Finally, Molly. In case anyone's
wondering if you are addressing something to an unmarried couple
living together, Oh no, Um, you're supposed to put their
names on two separate lines. She is very insistent about that,
(16:47):
two separate lines, not joined. Do you only get one
line when you're married? Ye, So Jane Johnson, you're going
underneath John Kelly or a buff or above, but just
not on the same line. Just not on the same line. Okay.
So it's I mean, it sounds silly, but a lot
of people just put all this politics into who goes first.
And the thing about it is is that mms versus
miss versus mrs. Has taken on um this political connotation
(17:11):
the same way that your last name has, because it's
how you present yourself to the world. But the thing
that was interesting in researching this is that this kind
of um gender language is all around us. Yeah, absolutely,
in ways we don't even realize. I think that this
one gets the most attention because it's most prominent because
you do introduce yourself with the name. But we are
reading examples, um, some feminist critiques of language, if you will, UM,
(17:34):
take the terms spinster and bachelor. Yeah, they mean the
same thing and totally different connotations. Which one would you
rather be? Can be the bachelor? Yeah, he's living it
up where the Spincers just buy more cat food. I'm
only well. Gender neutral language can be cumbersome to keep
up with, let's be honest, and some sometimes I think
(17:55):
it is important for women to think about it though,
in terms of of this ms versus mrs debate and
the spencer versus bachelor and going down the line where
why is it that with a lot of our language, um,
the terms used to describe women uh related to their
(18:16):
sexual life, their sex life or their relationships are usually
very um negative unless it is attached to a partner
exactly where your mrs. It's unfortunate, it is unfortunately. I
think that it's time to uh, may you think of
some new terms, sminty gals, if you have any awesome
empowering terms for for single women or married women or
(18:38):
married women or guys just latest. Yeah, we want to
hear them because I would. I would really like a
an alternative dispenser or cat lady. What's the what's the
female bachelor? Yeah? What's the female bachelor? And I don't
want to hear cougar. I'm not talking about cougar. Oh
my god, I hate that word. Yeah, that's a whole
nother podcast, another podcast. Um, well, before we close out,
(18:58):
let's read some more interesting name stories. How about that?
That sounds great. I'm gonna start off with an email
from Sarah, who writes, first things first, I am transgendered.
I was once a dude, and now I'm a chick,
which is awesome. She put that in like bold. Um.
When I told my family at fourteen about myself, they
probably threw me out of their house in their lives
the love with people that took me and saved my
life and allowed me to take their family name so
(19:20):
I could completely distance myself in the past. Uh. Sixteen
years later, I'm engaged to a pretty great guy, and
when we get married or civil partnered, he's taking my
family name. He understands that it's a name that means
a lot to me. That it's very much my identity
and I want to honor the people that raised me.
His family, though, took a while to get used to
the idea. Thankfully the name is she was a bigger
problem than my gender, Walkinus. But now they're on board
(19:40):
and we're moving ahead. But we could have both kept
our regular names, but adoption agencies like their applicants to
have the same name if they're married. So there you go,
a different point of view. Awesome, thank you, Sarah. Well, Molly,
I have another listener male from another Sarah, I don't
want how about them apples? Uh. Sarah wanted to share
her perspective on the topic of maiden names. She said
that she has to married for almost nineteen years. She
(20:01):
worked as an engineer for several several years before meeting
her husband, and then several more years before marrying him,
so it was already well known to people in her
field that her maiden name um that what her maiden
name was, and she didn't want to change it. So
she would say add to this that my mother in
law had never been in favor of our wedding, so
becoming known by what I considered her name was even
(20:23):
more objectionable. To me. However, knowing that we would have
children someday, I decided to add his last name to mind,
more like the South American style. I didn't hyphenate um
my name though. For our children, UM, they use my
husband's last name. But I still can use whichever I
feel is right at the moment, be it at work
or around the family, kind of like the ms mrs
(20:44):
switch up. Uh. This has worked well for us, even
after we decided to homeschool our children. Hey, I know
about that, and the last name in common was less
of an issue. I feel people should use whatever fits them.
One of my sons wanted wants to legally add my
maiden name to his name when he turns eighteen. He
feels that my maternal side of the family needs to
be shown and continued on through him, and hence would
(21:06):
also have a dual last name. He's open to the
idea of adding his ultimate wife's name to the mix
as well. My other sons don't see the big deal
either way in this matter, but as for me, I'm
glad I just added my husband's name to the mix.
That way, I kept my name, which my parents gave
me and which I like, including my middle name and
added to my identity of my new family by adding
my husband's name. Just my thoughts on this topic. Okay,
(21:30):
very nice. Here's one from Liza. UM. So, Liza is
about to get married on October. So have a nice
wedding day, Liza. You hear that before? Hear this before?
Um Liza is a working artist and a hand engraver.
As a wedding gift, my father has made Michael and
myself a set of plates and bowls. He too as
an artist and where I get my talent from. So
(21:50):
the dishes are amazing, except for the E in the center,
which is the letter that Michael's last name starts with.
I won't stay here. Her dad had assumed that you
would take the name I have no desire to. I
even made the argument that if Michael finds it unreasonable,
then it is on the table. Then is it on
the table for me to take? Mine answer being no.
So now I don't want to break my dad's heart.
He spent months on these plates, hand throwing them on
(22:12):
the wheel. I love the gift, but I'm offended that
he assumed I would take my husband's name, especially since
I was raised to have my own identity and belong
to myself above all. That stinks. Tricky situation, but I
have I have all the faith that they are going
to work it out before October. I mean, I'll also
throw out that my last name starts with any So
if they want to give the dishes and up plates
(22:33):
and bowls to me, I mean, I could just take
this problem right off their hands. I don't I don't
know how Michael feel about it, but I'm just throwing
it out there, always thinking of number one Molly. That's good,
a defendive woman. Um. And to close things out, I
have an email from j who drumroll, please took his
wife's name. Wow. Um. I considered this greatly. During our
(22:55):
engagement period, we looked into traditions and determined that we
had no particular reason to honor traditions as they were
antiquated and hell no real meaning to us. So what
we did take into account were a few factors. He said,
my side of the family has two other boys to
carry on the name, and one of those boys already
has a son, so the name carries on to the
next generation. Of course, this relies on the sexist tradition
(23:18):
to continue, but that seems likely. Number Two, my wife's
family name was going to die off if she were
not going to keep it going. Uh. This went back
for several generations that we could trace, and while she
was never adamant about keeping her name alive, it seemed
to be a fair consideration. Three, we want to have
an unhyphenated, unhyphenated common family name. Personal preference here, certainly,
(23:39):
but we wanted our children to have parents with the
same last name and to keep it simple. And four
when we considered the traditional reasons for taking a name,
I felt extremely welcomed and accepted into my wife's family
throughout our relationship, and there was no reason for this
acceptance to have any less validity than any acceptance from
my family. Because I spent the time to research this
and investigate my true intentions, I felt entirely just to
(24:00):
find my decision to take my life my wife's name.
I haven't suffered any ridicule from my friends from this
because it was my decision and my choice, not something
that I was put into a position to consider. My
family did have issues initially, but everyone respected my choice.
This is probably the most important thing for anyone to
consider in changing one's name, why are you doing so
and what do you believe in those reasons? For me,
(24:21):
the fact that it was the traditional thing to do
was not enough of a reason. So very good insight.
Thank you, Jane. And if you guys have any insight
on this topic or just have a question or comment
for Molly, feel free to email us at Mom's Stuff
at how stuff works dot com And during the week
you can head over to our blog called how to stuff.
(24:43):
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have your mind blown, have your mind blown by words
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(25:06):
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Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.
It's ready. Are you welcome to step Mom Never told you?
From house stuff works dot com. Hey thereon, Welcome to
the podcast. This is Kristen and this is Molly, So Molly.
(00:20):
We got a lot of response from our wonderful mom
Stuff listeners about our podcast on why women keep or
give up their maiden names. Yes, everyone's story is fascinating. Yeah.
We got great stories from guys and girls who kept
their maiden name, guys who took their wife's names, all
(00:40):
sorts of versions of of what they did with their
last names when they got married. But one question that
came up a lot in these listener emails was about
what to do if you are a woman who keeps
her maiden name and you want to signify that you
were married, but still of the your maiden name, you
(01:01):
don't have the same last name as your husband. What
do you do? For instance, I will refer to this
email from a listener named Lucy, and Lucy kept her
maiden name when she got married and she says um.
Among all the questions I received is one, how will
people know if you're married? If you don't have the
same name as your husband, and I was interested to
(01:21):
see if you have any data or thoughts with regard
to what title women who keep their maiden name prefer
to adopt. I don't feel like a MSS because I've
not taken my husband's name, and MS seems to suggest
that I'm divorced, that I've divorced a lot of people.
So I've stuck with miss for now. But even this
has created problems recently when I was applying for car
insurance and the website wouldn't permit me to state that
(01:43):
I was a MISS and married. Yeah, so sticky situation.
It is very sticky because you know, we got email
from listeners who are like, Mrs So and so is
my husband's mother if I haven't taken that last name so,
and you know, if you're addressing wedding invitations to people,
what do you put? Yeah, what's the etiquette for it?
And then some people have hang ups with the title
(02:04):
miss because it seems to have, uh, I don't know,
political connotations these days that they might not like. So
so we decided that where the connotations, let's sake, let's
take this maiden Names Part two and look at the
difference between Ms Mrs miss and try to figure this
out and answer some of else questions. So let's start
(02:26):
with um, just the basic etymology of mrs. Okay, because
back in the day, you know, your mom was probably
Mrs Edmunds. My mom was, yeah, you know what I mean. UM.
That was you know, the general title that the American
wives gave themselves. So, according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, UM,
(02:47):
mrs was an abbreviation of mistress and um. It was
the plural from the French madam, and the pronunciation mrs.
Was considered vulgar until at least the eighteenth century, and
it was considered one's wife from around nineteen twenties, so
it actually hasn't been around as long as I thought
it had been. So it was weller because people from
(03:09):
very early on got this connotation with um. The French brothels,
if you will, There were madame's operating these nightclubs where
shady dealings were done. But originally just mistress was meant
to show that you've had power over underlings, basically run
out a state. Then that meant that you had uh,
you know, maybe servants that you were taking care of.
(03:31):
It was just a position of power getting often here
in older literature, the the the term mistress of the house.
She's the one who takes care of all the house affairs.
She's not necessarily someone's wife, and she wasn't necessarily the
woman that your husband is having affair with. Like that
connotation came along much later as well. And then on
(03:52):
the flip side, you have miss, which was usually used
just to denote a younger girl. Right, so to abbreviate mistress,
they got mrs. Right, And so then to say, okay,
mrs is sort of an older lady with this power.
The young miss of the house, yes, has no power
yet she's going to school. Yes, I don't know why
that required accents um. But then in the nineteenth century,
(04:16):
what we've got is the Industrial Revolution, and so more
women head off to the workplace. They're not just stuck
in these big old estates anymore. And for one reason
or another, the other people that they're working with one
to know if they're married or not. Social availability, Yeah,
who who was available in this sweatshop? So the use
of ms versus mss to define whether or not you
(04:37):
were married, um, came out as a result of women
in the workplace, and I guess men wanting to know
whether or not they could course them. So then another
common thing for women in the workplace was to be
a secretary. Yes, and the secretaries would type up all
the correspondence for their boss. And there's the question of
(04:57):
if you're sending a letter to a lady and you
don't know if she's a miss or mrs what do
you do? You don't want to offender. That was sort
of the first real instance of miss as this um
generic term for a woman. Yeah, this is something that
these secretaries came up with, and the first use of miss. Well,
the Oxford English Dictionary attributes the first formal use of
(05:18):
miss to a book called the Simplified Letter, which was
published in nineteen fifty two for the National Office of
Management Association. Right, so if you're a secretary, this is
the book you get, and it says when you don't
know how to address a woman, just put miss in there. Yeah,
makes sense, um, But some people do um date the
first use of miss all the way back to seventeen
(05:38):
sixty seven when they said that it appeared on the
tombstone of a woman named Sarah Spooner and it was
again it was just another abbreviation, abbreviation for mistress like
mrs m R S was. So originally it's just this abbreviation.
It's this way to UM, you know, avoid confusion and
letter writing. And then the feminists got ahold of it,
and they got ahold of it through these Secretary Aerl handbooks. Right,
(06:01):
we have second wave feminism which comes up in the
nineteen sixties, in nineteen seventies, and their tagline, one of
the taglines at least of the movement was uh, personal
is political, And it's really this idea of women changing
how they are perceived UM in their daily lives through
UM political actions. And in nineteen seventy, the National Organization
(06:23):
for Women UM made a formal request for or past
the formal resolution calling for the use of miss to
denote other, single, married, whatever, so that women would no
longer have to be defined in terms of whether or
not that they were connected to another man. Because as
a mister, anybody who's a mister single, single, married, divorced, widowed, whatever,
(06:48):
he's going to be MR his whole life. Everyone's amster.
So they were thinking, by definition, there should be a
term that all women can be as well. And if
you've listened to the Maiden Name podcast along with this,
is sort of the same movement. Hey, A, don't change
your name. When you're introduced to someone as Mrs. You know,
John Wayne, you are putting yourself out in the world
as this person's wife. And by being Mss Molly Edmonds.
(07:13):
I guess if I married John Wayne, then I'm presenting
the world. I'm presenting myself to the world as me
as opposed to this person's property. I don't know why
I thought of John Wayne. I don't know what. I'm
picturing your wedding photos right now, and it's kind of
awesome Wild West wedding. Yes, um. But the interesting thing
about this push for MISS to become adopted by a
(07:33):
lot of women is the number one force holding out
against MISS, the anti MISS faction, led by The New
York Times. Yeah, this was amazing to me. In the research,
you know, there there was some quote I read that
at one point when The New York Times was describing
a party that UM Gloria Steinham hosted, they had to say,
you know, Miss Steinham, who works at MS magazine. So
(07:57):
the only way they had referred to MSS was relation
to the magazine. So the New York Times basically holds
this editorial standard, like we're not going to change to MISS,
even though every other newspaper is doing it. It's just
it's we don't need it. Yeah, they got flak from
other publications as well. I think Time published a piece
in the maybe late seventies early eighties lambast in the
(08:17):
New York Times for not switching over to MISS because
a lot of other major news outlets had adopted miss
as the honorific title for women. And it wasn't until
nineteen four, when Geraldine Ferraro is running on the Democratic
ticket for vice president, that the New York Times finally caves.
Gerlen Ferraro was married to a man named John Zacharo.
(08:38):
I may not be pronouncing that right, but she kept
her main names. So she was gerald and Ferraro married
to John Zacharrow, so she should have been Mrs Zacharo,
but she kept her maiden name. Now, what she wanted
to be called was either Miss Ferraro because she liked
that sort of terminology that these people had adopted, or
Congresswoman Ferraro. Um. But you know, there was this debate
(08:59):
with George H. W. Bush and he made this big
deal of calling her Mrs Ferraro. Yeah, she would refer
to she referenced him as Vice President Bush, and he
would come back at her with, well, Mrs Ferraro, right,
And you know, it was seen as this move to
put her like distinctly in a domestic sphere as opposed
woman who could hold a leadership role. And I do
remember reading that when Biden debated Palin that one of
(09:20):
the biggest mistakes he could have made was to have
said Mrs Palin as opposed to Governor Palin. So there's
this big um sticky situation in spearheaded by Jail and Ferraro.
And this is only when The New York Times says, okay,
do you denote the fact that she's this woman in
a certain situation, We're going to call her Ms Ferraro
to take out sort of these politics of being married
(09:41):
or not right. And I think that I think the
New York Times still does use mrs on occasion because
one article that I read recently, I was talking about
the number of UH congresswomen who go by mms and
some who prefer mrs. Like I want to say that
um Olympius Snow for instance, is a miss, whereas Hillary Clinton,
(10:04):
I think is actually Mrs Clinton. And see, that's the
thing is at this point, because it doesn't really catch
on the way the feminists designed it to. But the
fact that The New York Times is hounding out shows
that not every woman immediately was like, yeah, let's all
be missed. Yeah. One thing that one kind of strange
childhood memory. I don't know why it's stuck in my
head so much, Molly, but I remember um being pretty young,
(10:27):
and my mom was a teacher, and this was probably
in you know, late eighties, early nineties, and I remember
her complaining about her the school she taught forcing the
we're not forcing, but I wanted to institute women just
going by miss. All the female teachers no longer being
miss or mrs just doing miss across the board, probably
(10:49):
to simplify things. Um, And I remember her complaining and saying,
you know what, this is not right that my school
was trying to turn me into Miss Conger because I
am Mrs Conger. Yeah, I've been Mrs Conger for years
and years and years, and I don't like the sound
of miss to be to be honest, I mean, it's
sort of the same thing when you're just signed to
change your maiden name. If you've already been Mrs So
and so for however many years, it's not natural necessarily
(11:12):
to just all of a sudden become Miss so and so. Yeah,
and on the flip side of I'm sure there are
plenty of women out there who would consider miss to
feel far more empowering than mrs or for people like
HS Molly who are unmarried women, I wouldn't necessarily like
to call myself Miss Conger. It does seem a little
demeaning when a guy calls me miss Conger, like you
(11:33):
could have pat me on the head, and you know,
it makes you sound very small, Like I think those
age connotations are still there. But you know this connotation
of miss Now, people see miss you know, attached to
Edmunds or Conger and they probably just assume, well, that's
because she's of a certain age and still unmarried. They
might see it on other women as a sign of
being divorced, like I think now there's this connotation because uh,
(11:55):
the merried women don't necessarily want to backtrack and become
miss so and so. That if you're um miss so
and so, that you're trying to hide something, you know,
the fact that you're unmarried, divorced, or a raging feminist.
And a lot of the studies that I found about
the use of MISS, it kind of echoes all of this,
saying that uh, miss hasn't replaced really hasn't replaced missrs
(12:16):
on a wide scale, women are still choosing I'd say
it's probably UM, but it has more of a replacement
for MISS. Yes, I think we are getting rid of
the MISS except for young girls. But it's still this
choice about whether you want to adopt all this, you know,
for for lack of a better term, feminist baggage. If
it was the it's the same thing we discussed in
our feminism podcast where people don't really like this label
(12:39):
of feminist and so as a result, they may not
like this label of title that the feminist came up
with and pushed for. But one thing only that that
surprised me when I was researching all of this, because
you're when you're referring to feminist baggage. I found UM
a couple of studies UH on people's perceptions towards women
who labeled themselves as MISS as opposed to MISS or mrs.
(13:02):
And I was kind of expecting the results to say that,
you know, people perceive women who call themselves MISS as
being more you know, uptight and rigid and whatever go
down the list, um, But it was actually quite the opposite.
People who are labeled labeled themselves as MSS are perceived
simply as more having more control over their lives, maybe
(13:26):
being better achievers um, and better educated and having more um.
I think the term they used was agency over their world. UM.
At the same time, they were perceived as less communal,
but nevertheless still very powerful as individuals, which is why
I think you see MISS used a lot in the workplace.
We're reading this article that said a lot of women
(13:48):
are miss so and so in the workplace, and then
when they go home their missus so and so, and
it may just be for ease. You know, you're taking
your kid to school, and it's easier to say, you know,
I'm Mrs x X being the same last name, it's
child's last name. So um. They were talking sort of
about this, these dual lives that women lead, where in
their workplace there this very strong and dependent woman as
(14:09):
defined by their miss whereas when they go home they'll
still take on these traditional roles almost you know, the
writer positive that maybe it was to prove that their
success in their job hadn't defeminized them in some way. So, well,
if we do have these women who plenty of women
who are MISS sometimes and their MSS other times, or
for women like us who are unmarried, and we could
(14:32):
be MSS or we could be miss, what is what
is the etiquette? Let's answer our let's answer our listeners questions. Okay,
let's turn to Emily Post. Yes, Emily Post the maven
of social etiquette. Yeah, basically, um, as far as business terms,
it is true, MS is the way to go. Yeah.
I mean, if it went in doubt, I would go
MISS because if you assume that it's Mr and Mrs
(14:56):
so and so, that can be just as offensive. I
think is doing it the other way. Now, according to
Emily Post, now her example is someone named Jane Johnson. Yes,
this is the maiden named Jane Johnson. Emily Post says
that if you are married Jane Johnson and you keep
that maiden name, your new formal address is MS. Jane Johnson,
(15:17):
which is also your form of address. If you are single,
you're still and your maiden name unmarried, you can still
be Miss Jane Johnson. And but if you're married and
you use your husband's name socially, then in your husband's
last name is Kelly, then obviously you would be Miss
Jane Kelly in social settings. But what about divorce Molly. Now,
if you're divorced, you can choose them to keep the mrs.
(15:41):
It seems like I could be confusing, but you can
still mean Mrs Jane Kelly because someone someone will keep there.
I mean, if you got kids and you're trying to
match your kids, you might keep it. Um. So instead
of being Mrs John Kelly, who in this hypothetical on
my post situation is who she's married to, you would
still be Mrs Jane Kelly UM or Miss Jane Kelly.
Or if you got back to the main name, then
you can be Miss Jane Johnson. So basically, once you're divorced,
(16:03):
it's just a grab bag if you is. Yeah, okay,
So if you're addressing an invitation to a couple, um,
this is probably the most confusing scenario if the couple's
married and she's using the maiden name as opposed to
using the husband's name socially or just taking it all together. Um, Okay, Mary,
using maiden name, it would be Mr John Kelly and
Miss Jane Johnson Ms. Jane Johnson and Mr John Kelly.
(16:26):
Because you don't always have to put the man first. Finally,
it's strides we've made now. Finally, Molly. In case anyone's
wondering if you are addressing something to an unmarried couple
living together, Oh no, Um, you're supposed to put their
names on two separate lines. She is very insistent about that,
(16:47):
two separate lines, not joined. Do you only get one
line when you're married? Ye, So Jane Johnson, you're going
underneath John Kelly or a buff or above, but just
not on the same line. Just not on the same line. Okay.
So it's I mean, it sounds silly, but a lot
of people just put all this politics into who goes first.
And the thing about it is is that mms versus
miss versus mrs. Has taken on um this political connotation
(17:11):
the same way that your last name has, because it's
how you present yourself to the world. But the thing
that was interesting in researching this is that this kind
of um gender language is all around us. Yeah, absolutely,
in ways we don't even realize. I think that this
one gets the most attention because it's most prominent because
you do introduce yourself with the name. But we are
reading examples, um, some feminist critiques of language, if you will, UM,
(17:34):
take the terms spinster and bachelor. Yeah, they mean the
same thing and totally different connotations. Which one would you
rather be? Can be the bachelor? Yeah, he's living it
up where the Spincers just buy more cat food. I'm
only well. Gender neutral language can be cumbersome to keep
up with, let's be honest, and some sometimes I think
(17:55):
it is important for women to think about it though,
in terms of of this ms versus mrs debate and
the spencer versus bachelor and going down the line where
why is it that with a lot of our language, um,
the terms used to describe women uh related to their
(18:16):
sexual life, their sex life or their relationships are usually
very um negative unless it is attached to a partner
exactly where your mrs. It's unfortunate, it is unfortunately. I
think that it's time to uh, may you think of
some new terms, sminty gals, if you have any awesome
empowering terms for for single women or married women or
(18:38):
married women or guys just latest. Yeah, we want to
hear them because I would. I would really like a
an alternative dispenser or cat lady. What's the what's the
female bachelor? Yeah? What's the female bachelor? And I don't
want to hear cougar. I'm not talking about cougar. Oh
my god, I hate that word. Yeah, that's a whole
nother podcast, another podcast. Um, well, before we close out,
(18:58):
let's read some more interesting name stories. How about that?
That sounds great. I'm gonna start off with an email
from Sarah, who writes, first things first, I am transgendered.
I was once a dude, and now I'm a chick,
which is awesome. She put that in like bold. Um.
When I told my family at fourteen about myself, they
probably threw me out of their house in their lives
the love with people that took me and saved my
life and allowed me to take their family name so
(19:20):
I could completely distance myself in the past. Uh. Sixteen
years later, I'm engaged to a pretty great guy, and
when we get married or civil partnered, he's taking my
family name. He understands that it's a name that means
a lot to me. That it's very much my identity
and I want to honor the people that raised me.
His family, though, took a while to get used to
the idea. Thankfully the name is she was a bigger
problem than my gender, Walkinus. But now they're on board
(19:40):
and we're moving ahead. But we could have both kept
our regular names, but adoption agencies like their applicants to
have the same name if they're married. So there you go,
a different point of view. Awesome, thank you, Sarah. Well, Molly,
I have another listener male from another Sarah, I don't
want how about them apples? Uh. Sarah wanted to share
her perspective on the topic of maiden names. She said
that she has to married for almost nineteen years. She
(20:01):
worked as an engineer for several several years before meeting
her husband, and then several more years before marrying him,
so it was already well known to people in her
field that her maiden name um that what her maiden
name was, and she didn't want to change it. So
she would say add to this that my mother in
law had never been in favor of our wedding, so
becoming known by what I considered her name was even
(20:23):
more objectionable. To me. However, knowing that we would have
children someday, I decided to add his last name to mind,
more like the South American style. I didn't hyphenate um
my name though. For our children, UM, they use my
husband's last name. But I still can use whichever I
feel is right at the moment, be it at work
or around the family, kind of like the ms mrs
(20:44):
switch up. Uh. This has worked well for us, even
after we decided to homeschool our children. Hey, I know
about that, and the last name in common was less
of an issue. I feel people should use whatever fits them.
One of my sons wanted wants to legally add my
maiden name to his name when he turns eighteen. He
feels that my maternal side of the family needs to
be shown and continued on through him, and hence would
(21:06):
also have a dual last name. He's open to the
idea of adding his ultimate wife's name to the mix
as well. My other sons don't see the big deal
either way in this matter, but as for me, I'm
glad I just added my husband's name to the mix.
That way, I kept my name, which my parents gave
me and which I like, including my middle name and
added to my identity of my new family by adding
my husband's name. Just my thoughts on this topic. Okay,
(21:30):
very nice. Here's one from Liza. UM. So, Liza is
about to get married on October. So have a nice
wedding day, Liza. You hear that before? Hear this before?
Um Liza is a working artist and a hand engraver.
As a wedding gift, my father has made Michael and
myself a set of plates and bowls. He too as
an artist and where I get my talent from. So
(21:50):
the dishes are amazing, except for the E in the center,
which is the letter that Michael's last name starts with.
I won't stay here. Her dad had assumed that you
would take the name I have no desire to. I
even made the argument that if Michael finds it unreasonable,
then it is on the table. Then is it on
the table for me to take? Mine answer being no.
So now I don't want to break my dad's heart.
He spent months on these plates, hand throwing them on
(22:12):
the wheel. I love the gift, but I'm offended that
he assumed I would take my husband's name, especially since
I was raised to have my own identity and belong
to myself above all. That stinks. Tricky situation, but I
have I have all the faith that they are going
to work it out before October. I mean, I'll also
throw out that my last name starts with any So
if they want to give the dishes and up plates
(22:33):
and bowls to me, I mean, I could just take
this problem right off their hands. I don't I don't
know how Michael feel about it, but I'm just throwing
it out there, always thinking of number one Molly. That's good,
a defendive woman. Um. And to close things out, I
have an email from j who drumroll, please took his
wife's name. Wow. Um. I considered this greatly. During our
(22:55):
engagement period, we looked into traditions and determined that we
had no particular reason to honor traditions as they were
antiquated and hell no real meaning to us. So what
we did take into account were a few factors. He said,
my side of the family has two other boys to
carry on the name, and one of those boys already
has a son, so the name carries on to the
next generation. Of course, this relies on the sexist tradition
(23:18):
to continue, but that seems likely. Number Two, my wife's
family name was going to die off if she were
not going to keep it going. Uh. This went back
for several generations that we could trace, and while she
was never adamant about keeping her name alive, it seemed
to be a fair consideration. Three, we want to have
an unhyphenated, unhyphenated common family name. Personal preference here, certainly,
(23:39):
but we wanted our children to have parents with the
same last name and to keep it simple. And four
when we considered the traditional reasons for taking a name,
I felt extremely welcomed and accepted into my wife's family
throughout our relationship, and there was no reason for this
acceptance to have any less validity than any acceptance from
my family. Because I spent the time to research this
and investigate my true intentions, I felt entirely just to
(24:00):
find my decision to take my life my wife's name.
I haven't suffered any ridicule from my friends from this
because it was my decision and my choice, not something
that I was put into a position to consider. My
family did have issues initially, but everyone respected my choice.
This is probably the most important thing for anyone to
consider in changing one's name, why are you doing so
and what do you believe in those reasons? For me,
(24:21):
the fact that it was the traditional thing to do
was not enough of a reason. So very good insight.
Thank you, Jane. And if you guys have any insight
on this topic or just have a question or comment
for Molly, feel free to email us at Mom's Stuff
at how stuff works dot com And during the week
you can head over to our blog called how to stuff.
(24:43):
And if you just want to read and expand your mind,
have your mind blown, have your mind blown by words
on the screen, you should head over to our website
how stuff works dot com for more on this and
thousands of other topics. Is it how staff works dot com.
(25:06):
Want more how stuff works, check out our blogs on
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