November 24, 2025 • 32 mins
In the second part of our conversation about the response to Chanté Joseph's Vogue article "Is Having a Boyfriend Embarrassing now?", we delve even deeper to some of reasons why it resonated with so many.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome stuff. I never told you prediction Iyheart Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Oh okay, we are back to the part too. I
actually did a part two. Ah man, I was doing
so good, Annie, I was doing so I had some thoughts.
I've kind of derailed it to No. We knew this
was going to happen, because this is, like I will say,
as we have talked about this episode, so we are
coming back to Chante Joseph's article is having a boyfriend
(00:38):
embarrassing and there's a lot of feels. So there's a
lot of fels to the point that I every time
I think I've talked, I have now mentioned it twice
on interviews to say have you read this article. I
have mentioned it to you. I have mentioned it to
a friend of the show previous. I was Caroline. I've
been spreading this article out everywhere because I'm like, we
all need to talk about this. This is legitimate. We
(01:00):
as a coalition of marginalized feminist female representing people, need
to talk about this article. Yeah, and why it resonated
so much, Yes, and why there's so many like reactions
to it. Of course, we know any type of statement
like this, this is going to get some type of reaction,
good or bad. But she really brought out some thoughts
(01:24):
in this conversation. If you haven't listened to the part one,
pause here, go back to part one because we talk
about some of the things that she alludes to, some
of her quotes and what she specifically has seen in
this conversation with other writers and creatives as well. So
an activist, So you should stop here, go back. Okay,
(01:45):
welcome back. But yeah, so she had some really big
thoughts and man, people, people have things to say. So
Joseph often says throughout her article, it isn't that falling
in love or being in a happy, healthy relationship is
bad or that it demonizes a person. It doesn't make
you a villain for being that. But it is all
(02:08):
about the fact that it is restructuring a narrative that
once villainized the group of women whose self worth is
not hinged on the ever exhausting quest of finding their soulmates. Which,
by the way, I just heard someone say that to me,
and I really want to be like, no, really, yes,
she was so recently divorce. I think she just came
out of a relationship and like She's like, I just
(02:30):
like she's feeling that loneliness even though she knew she
was so excited about coming out of that relationship and
understanding how bad it was. But now her new quest
is to fine that one again. And I was like, no,
I need to teach you to rethink this, because you
will in any perfect relationship, it can be the most perfect,
(02:53):
genuinely great relationship. If your search is based on someone else,
your happiness based on someone else, You're gonna be unhappy. Yeah.
And it's going to make you sad and like rip
that your expectations. Yeahs to you. That term soul mate,
(03:16):
I just hate it so much. But as again, as
we talked about all of these things, especially again in
that dating episode, Oh it is exhausting mm hmm. And
and that search being for us being told this is
the end goal. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And you know, we've talked about this in so many episodes,
but I don't know if I've ever shared this story.
When I was in high school, I created what I
called Operation Hot Husband. Oh h h uh, and I
was determined to find my and I was in high school,
you know, and uh also gay.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
But whatever, it's okay, we understand that I was.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I legitimately actually was, but I would go, like, looking
back at it, everything was fine, but I could have
put myself in some pretty dangerous situations because I was.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I was going to like bars as a high schooler, wow, to.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Meet a man, because I have this timeline and I'm
so sure by this time I had to do this.
By this time, I had to do this. I had
a whole like plant like home alone style, this is
how you do it. But I could have really put
myself in a dangerous situation for this story that has
(04:43):
been fed to me that is not.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
True and doesn't take.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Into account the reality of a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh age ah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Operation hot husband ye wow, wow, Yeah that's a nugget.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I not know that was new. It was new for me.
That was new. But yeah, with all of these things, well,
there are some interesting responses to the article to the
fact again, other articles have been written in this conversation.
There are many also response videos talking about how they
(05:23):
aren't embarrassed by their boyfriends and and the such, and
seemingly to show off their boyfriend or more likely appealing
to the sexist audiences they have cul cultivated, being like
kind of like the treadwife type of conversation of like,
I'm not a feminist, I can cook video if you
know you know, if you know you know. This is
(05:44):
the same level of being like, not being embarrassed in
my boyfriend, my boyfriend does this, my boyfriend does this,
and this. I'm like, okay, this is one of those moments.
I'm like, tell me you haven't read the article without
telling me you haven't read the article type of conversation.
And one of those articles came from The Guardian. She
did read it. I think she did read it, to
(06:04):
be honest, but part of her response was kind of
a level of like, oh, well, if boyfriend having a
boyfriend is embarrassing me, having a husband is even more so,
Like but tell me gen z or because I don't
know Justph's age or anything. But it seemed like a
very much like that type of conversation, like does is
marring mom pants still as embarrassing as that is? Are
(06:26):
these things as embarrassing as that? I'm like, that's not
not necessarily, not necessarily what she's saying, and then criticizing
and being like, well, if that's embarrassing, what other types
of relationships would you consider embarrassing type of conversation. I'm like, wow, again,
I don't think you read what this article is. It's
(06:49):
not them versus us, it's not relationship versus single women. Like,
there's so much nuances to this conversation about like where
we have come and how far we have come along
and understanding we should have an identity beyond I am
someone's partner, I am someone's girlfriend, I am someone's wife, mom,
(07:11):
and I am someone's mom. But I like, that was
one article, but there's others who are like, you know what,
I get it, let's talk about this. So this is
from Dailyfreepress dot com and I believe it's an asque
abby but it's actually ask anal Analise Brunos the author,
and she writes women are not merely choosing to stay
(07:32):
single because boyfriends are embarrassing. As an abstract concept, this
isn't a quirky, cool, a chkh lifestyle choice. It's a
response to a much deeper systemic reality. Gender violence and
misogyny and the longstanding societal expectation that women exist primarily
as caregivers. With quote added romantic perks have shaped the
(07:55):
way women navigate intimacies. For centuries. The real truth behind
why so many women are deliberately single is more empowered
and profound. They are finding fulfillment, growth, and autonomy outside
of romantic relationships. I think it's what like that is
exactly like the level of understanding, and it's kind of
(08:16):
like that adventure in being able to do whatever you want,
however you want to eat, however you want to keep
the house, however you want to If you want that cat,
get that cat. If you don't want that cat, don't
get that cat. It's this level of understanding you really
only need to care for one person and you're not
(08:36):
responsible for multiple Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think about this a lot with my mom because
you know, if a lot of times these conversations do
get kind of that's gen Z doing whatever. You know
what I you know, but my mom, after my dad died,
she's just said to me several times, have no interest
(09:01):
in finding anybody else. It's nice that I don't have
to worry about because he would get cranky, he needed
like food at this time, he hated going out with
the kid.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Like.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
She just had all of these things, and they did
love each other and they had a relationship that I
don't think she regrets, but I do think it's pretty
telling that she's like, it's kind of a relief now
that I don't have to be managing him so much
and his emotions so much while I'm also raising kids.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I mean, we've talked about women coming in like their
second when they after their partners either divorce or die,
and the freedom and how much more they get to live.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Especially like older generations, you get married so young, so
it's so it is kind of like, well, I didn't
have that experience before I got married, so now I'm
getting to have.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It right of seeing my parents who were happily married.
And I know, if we've talked about it, when one
of them dies, the other was going to quickly go
with them, Like if there was a true soul made situation,
(10:20):
this is it that they are. They've always been in alignment,
whether like they've also thrown things at each other and
screamed at each other and yelled at each other for sure,
but like my mother and father still make sure to
tell each other they love each other and call them
pet names like all these things, so they really feel
like they are each other's best choices and they made
the best choices However, my mother also has moments of like,
(10:43):
I never got to do these things that you got
to do. And she had plans as of recently to
try to do some of those things, but age and
pain and all these things circumstances have happened and she's
not able to do it. And I can tell as
she's talking about it, wanting to do those things and
being enabled to like really has those moments, And it
has nothing to do with my dad necessarily, like he
(11:04):
didn't hold her back, but she definitely started a family
in her teens with him, and they were not able
to do those things. They had the obligations without the
support and ability. Of course, back then you didn't think
they could. It was a glamorous ideal for people to
travel like that, not your everyday North Georgia mountains people
(11:24):
who are barely working through their jobs without with barely
their high school diplomas. So it was definitely a different
time and it wasn't a reality like there was no way.
As we're today, it is more accessible, but yeah, not
if you're still bound by those same having two to
three children, having very limited funds, trying to have a house,
(11:47):
all those things can Yeah, it kind of does feel
like it holds you back.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It does, and it's it's one of those things that
really frustrates me because I just think this is this
is one of those it's hurting everybody because people do
want to be in relationships, and the truth of it
is that for so long, for women, a relationship does
(12:19):
come at a much higher cost than it does for men.
And I hate that because I have friends who want
that relationship but are like unwilling to pursue it, and
men who want to be in relationships, but women are like,
I don't know, I don't want to enter this because
I'm going to get trapped in something. And I feel
(12:41):
like my mom, what I would witness with her is
she was such a people pleaser and I am too,
and I'm pretty sure I got it from her that
she couldn't even though I feel like she's a strong, intelligent,
all of these things, but she felt like she had
to do this because her kids were involved, or she
(13:03):
just sacrificed so much. And that's it's almost kind of
a self sabotaging fear at a certain point, because I
was one of the reasons I didn't want to date
at first, was I knew that would happen to me.
I would get in a relationship and I would cave
because that's what I learned, That's what I saw growing up.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right right, well, and again that's this whole other depth
of conversation of like motherhood and such and like this
is kind of pre because but you know what's coming
type of conversation and like is this worth sacrificing for
this dude?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, you're thinking about that. I mean, we talked about
this in the Women in Men Lying about their Politics episode.
But I remember recently before I really came into my
identity as Ace, I sat down with a dude who
wanted He was like, I think we should date, and
I said, right then and there, listen here, I don't
want to get married.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I don't want kids.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Like I was just laying out all of this stuff
right away, immediate.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
This is my list.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
If I'm not going to just stop talking to me,
I've been wish you washing on it in the past,
but I'm not going to say not anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I found myself and I will say, okay, so do that.
Ask an elist article. She read this, she wrote this,
and I love it. They say it's beautiful, really whether
you're in a relationship or not. The truth is clear.
Men may need women, but women do not need men.
Understanding this is essential, not as a statement of superiority,
(14:43):
but as a foundation of self fulfillment. And especially as
we talk about the fact that women are having less children,
and we talked about like why are the many reasons
in financial one of them. Other part is growth in
career or other wants in their lives, and knowing that
having a child is not timely for whatever your goal
(15:05):
may be, especially for women men, bad life goes on oftentimes,
but like in this level of like understanding that self
fulfillment is kind of nice. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And it's interesting to me that when when you you
sent this article to me, I was reminded of when
I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was the local feminist.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
The real rabble rouser, uh. But there was this article
that came out when I was in high school that
was basically kind of like women really scientifically don't need
men anymore, and everyone would. All these boys in my
(15:57):
class came up at me and they were so angry
about it, and I was like, I'm not trying to
I'm not trying to make a huge point about how
you shouldn't exist or something. I'm just saying, this is
what the science says. Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And you know you don't have to date me. Uh,
I'm telling you this.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It caused a huge firestorm. I just remember it, and
I was kind of taken aback by how angry these
boys were that there.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Was this science article that I'd read that said it
explains where we are today kind of does. Oh, but
another article about it from her campus dot com had
actually a great explanation. Again, as we are talking about
(16:52):
the article, just this the article they write. Another big
part of this conversation is that for a lot of
straight women, it can feel like we're sleeping with the enemy. Now,
I'm not saying all men are awful people who shouldn't
be in relationships. What I'm saying is that many of
us are out here doing everything right. We're in college,
(17:13):
we're working full time, we have our own apartments, we
are actively dismantling the patriarchy in our personal lives. Yet
somehow a man is still in our bed, our mind,
our space. The separation of both can be hard to handle,
especially when he is the guy of your dreams. When
it is compatible, Okay, so that's the end of her quote,
(17:36):
and I think it's such a well said specifically for
how I feel. I'm like, Okay, I gotta do all
these things, and all these things that I did not
expect has happened, and to this point of like I
assumed I would be single for the rest of my life.
I assumed if I did date someone that one day
might be a person of color woman like a woman
(17:57):
of color like. But my family was very scared of this,
was very scared of this thought process. But like in
the expectation is no, Like I love my partner. He
is a good man who loves and treats me very well,
(18:18):
there are still things that both of us are working
through when it comes to dismantling, like internal misogyny and
patriarchy that has been systemic. Like you know when you
see generations before who are trying to unlearn that and
how far away from that they are, but they're still trying.
And then you see the younger generations learn even more
(18:41):
than that and grow out of that, but still have
to keep on learning. Like it's a concept conversation and
like it talks to we talk about this when it
comes to racism, as well, like, inherently all non black
people are racist towards black people. And I'm not saying
that we are all racists, like we're me angry like
as we see it, but there's internalized racism that have
(19:04):
pitoted us against a group of people because we do
not want to be at the bottom. And I say
this as a person that is Asian who have grown
up being told but you're not like them type of
rhetoric and was like, okay, like knowing that's wrong, but
knowing I also benefited off of that, you know what
(19:24):
I'm saying, Like there's an inherent level. And that's also
when it comes to men, like understanding being a man
is inherently meaning you have sexism built into your anatomy
because whether it was taught to you through jobs or
being treated preferentially over this or let you off on
(19:48):
some of these things that other people people of color
could not get away with, or women could not get
away with, or you know, like women are asked to
be have to overprove that they're qualified, that they are
never going to be okay without the extra degrees type
of thing or extra experiences or in that conversation or
you're not truly going to be believed unless you are
physically wearing the abuse on you, as in leg you
(20:12):
have marks on you have physical like all these things.
This is that conversation of like understanding, men are not
the enemy, but men still have a lot of unlearning. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And I also I think that it's misleading how some
people have reported on this article after it came out,
because people are so quick to do what I was saying,
where oh, so all men are bad? What was this?
I think that the reason this hit so hard is
(20:48):
not because the author was saying you shouldn't have a
boyfriend or you shouldn't have a partner or anything like that.
I mean, you're a Republican, Yeah, But I think that's
why it hits so hard, is why the question of
what is going on where so many people feel that way?
(21:11):
And I think it's very it's a systemic issue where
even if the person you are with is not like that,
you know that systemically, there's a lot of calls for
questions and things that need to change. So it's it's
more of a it's more of what can we do
(21:35):
to address why we feel like this.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Also, there's a big conversation in like I know the
queer community when it comes to intersectionally talking to two
gay white men and in like, hey, I there's a
lot of misogyny within the gay men culture and you
need to talk about it. We need to talk about that.
You don't get a pass just because you don't want
(22:10):
to date a woman. That's not the thing. We have
seen and witness many things where they think they can
get away with things, whether it's touch and grabbing, doing
things and things. But no, it's okay, I'm gay, which
doesn't happen a lot. There's like it's I'm not saying
because if we don't want to fit into the far
right narrative of like oh yeah, there definitely no no,
(22:31):
but that for some reason there is a level like
we can't hold accountability and you can't say there's misogyny
there when it's absolutely there's misogyny there. There's this conversation
that needs to be there just as much as we
have to say there's racism within the queer community as well.
Just because you're one part of the spe like intersexual spectrum,
doesn't mean the other doesn't apply to you or doesn't
(22:54):
affect you somehow, whether you're part of the problem or
part of like the victims like type of thing conversation,
and this is that same narrative, except we're looking at
the point of view of like me a feeling like,
how have I betrayed my people, my feminist people by
having an heterosexual assist relationship like kinds of conversation in
(23:20):
this and for me for again, I was single up
into my thirties, no relationships except for like a couple
of like high school relationships that were like we don't
talk to each other, we pass notes type of conversation
into my late twenties early thirties, and even then my
relationships lasted two four weeks at most. So this is
(23:43):
my one and only long term relationship because I didn't
mind when I let go of That'm like, oh maybe, yeah. Well.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And that's the other thing that's that's usually weaponized against
swimming is something I told another.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Person who wanted to date me.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I was I was trying so hard to figure out
I didn't want to date anybody, but anyway, I told
him I was not into romance. I didn't trust it.
And he said, that's one of the saddest things I've
ever heard. You should get into therapy, and I just
looking back that he he just wanted to convince me, Yeah,
(24:27):
you have to be in this heterosexual relationship or you're
it was it was. It was supposed to be like
a threat. It was supposed to scare me.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, and it did hurt. Yeah, like it did hurt.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But I remember thinking, I don't have to deal with you, right,
I could go home and BILLI would you.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Would put me in therapy and cost me a lot
more money. I don't have time for this, Like that's
exactly like the But being in this relationship that I
have been currently in, this long term, happy relationship that
I'm in, it does feel like a little bit of
when I tell people, know, it's good to be single,
because I wouldn't change it for anything, But like singleness
(25:15):
was good to me too. Yeah, and for those who've
gone through bad relationships, try out singleness. It's wonderful. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, And I think that's that's a good nuance to
add is knowing how beautiful a relationship can be if
it's supportive, but also knowing that yeah, if I'll be
all right.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That's that's like this is not a or if it's
an okay.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And yeah, this is nice, right someone around as happy.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
As we are. We know, things happen. Things happen, whether
it's by choice or not by choice, like whatever it
may be, and you need to be okay in what
that comes. People change, people grow, People will have different
interests and ideologies. Unfortunately, I have changed from ten years
to now, you know, and I'm sure things will change
even more. So hopefully we get more progressive, you know,
(26:15):
and more for more human humanities. What that looks like later,
I don't know, And I will say. This was the
end of her Joseph's article. When talking about singleness and
all of this, they say, uh, is something to be
said to embracing that singleness? She writes, this is also
(26:36):
happening alongside a wave of women reclaiming and romanticizing their
single life. Where being single was once a cautionary telle
You'll end up a spinster with loads of cats. Sounds
fun of me, and just now becoming a desirable and
covetous status, another nail in the coffin of a centuries
old heterosexual fairy tale that never really benefited women to
(26:58):
begin with.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, I think I think so, and I think this
is great that we're having these conversations about how relationships
can look if you want one.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Women clearly.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Are fed up that this is not working for them
and it hasn't been working for them, and so I've
been really hopeful about some of the conversations I've seen
in recent years. There is obviously the conservative backlash that
makes me really angry, but I have been hopeful in
hearing people talk about, you know, maybe we should reconsider
(27:42):
what this looks like and how we can make this work.
And that makes me happy, right glad.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, And again, like as you were saying, and I
not to tell and brag about anything, but like, I
feel like my relationship is really great. We work a
lot really well together, and the traumas and the bad
things that have happened, it's been amazing to have him
(28:11):
as a support. I also feel like I'm not embarrassed
to show him off. I don't feel like he can't
come out if it's just a group of girls, you
know what I mean. Like he is oftentimes the only dude.
He's great. He's a great addition he is, and that
is something that is beneficial. Like he adds to the conversation,
(28:33):
he listens, he encourages so all of those good things.
So having a relationship is not the end all. Like
we're not saying that that's bad. I'm not that saying that.
But I understand this conversation and I do love the
turnaround in this level of like, yeah, that's not the solution.
Having a relationship is not a solution. It can be.
It should be a benefit, it should be an added plus.
(28:56):
If it's a negative, then we yes, we really need
to think about why why is this one? Right? But like,
being single is not like when people say the words
you're going to be single all your life, don't threaten
me with a good time and more money? What? Yeah,
you know, Like those are those moments and understanding that.
(29:18):
And of course this also has that conversation of women
making like more friends and having more friends and being
a little less lonely or being able to have a
solution when you feel lonely. Yeah, so that's definitely that
conversation too. So but again her putting that phrase out
(29:39):
there really ruffle some feathers and then also really gave
some victory laps to people. I love that too. It
is a conversation Starughter, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, I do too. I really think that this is
hitting something that has just been boiling under the surface
for a while, and even looking.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Back at my own.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Dating experiences, where you know, in the beginning, I would
be very sure, I'll make your food or whatever whatever
it looks like, and to getting into huge fights with
my last X or I just wouldn't have ever done
that before. But I just felt there wasn't inequality in
(30:28):
our relationship and that he didn't see it. And I
think that's happening more and more with people, and we
should be asking.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Why why is that?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So many thoughts, so many thoughts I didn't even get into.
I recently stumbled into a whole argument about women changing
their married name their name when they get married, and
I didn't I used to. We did an episode on
That's Minty long time ago, and I got a lot
of angry male about it, but I wasn't saying there's
(31:05):
anything bad about it. I was just kind of going
over the facts of the history of it. But apparently
this is still a huge, huge contention point. So weds, Yes,
Kristen got called up for that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, like weddings like that's still very controversial type what
do you what does the symbolize do you want this exactly?
That's a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Sometimes sometimes you just want to have a tradition, but you.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
But of what you want exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
But clearly it is still something that people are feel
a certain way about. They do and we did as well.
That's why it's a two parter. And and I feel
like my next one about moms being mad in media
is actually related to all of this.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I'm very excited.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You can listen out for that one, but in the meantime, listeners.
If you have any thoughts about this, you can email
us at hellot Stuffnever Told You dot com. You can
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(32:23):
super produced Christina executive produced to my and.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Listening Stuff Never Told You to put to my heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
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Hey, this is Annie and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome stuff. I never told you prediction Iyheart Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
Oh okay, we are back to the part too. I
actually did a part two. Ah man, I was doing
so good, Annie, I was doing so I had some thoughts.
I've kind of derailed it to No. We knew this
was going to happen, because this is, like I will say,
as we have talked about this episode, so we are
coming back to Chante Joseph's article is having a boyfriend
(00:38):
embarrassing and there's a lot of feels. So there's a
lot of fels to the point that I every time
I think I've talked, I have now mentioned it twice
on interviews to say have you read this article. I
have mentioned it to you. I have mentioned it to
a friend of the show previous. I was Caroline. I've
been spreading this article out everywhere because I'm like, we
all need to talk about this. This is legitimate. We
(01:00):
as a coalition of marginalized feminist female representing people, need
to talk about this article. Yeah, and why it resonated
so much, Yes, and why there's so many like reactions
to it. Of course, we know any type of statement
like this, this is going to get some type of reaction,
good or bad. But she really brought out some thoughts
(01:24):
in this conversation. If you haven't listened to the part one,
pause here, go back to part one because we talk
about some of the things that she alludes to, some
of her quotes and what she specifically has seen in
this conversation with other writers and creatives as well. So
an activist, So you should stop here, go back. Okay,
(01:45):
welcome back. But yeah, so she had some really big
thoughts and man, people, people have things to say. So
Joseph often says throughout her article, it isn't that falling
in love or being in a happy, healthy relationship is
bad or that it demonizes a person. It doesn't make
you a villain for being that. But it is all
(02:08):
about the fact that it is restructuring a narrative that
once villainized the group of women whose self worth is
not hinged on the ever exhausting quest of finding their soulmates. Which,
by the way, I just heard someone say that to me,
and I really want to be like, no, really, yes,
she was so recently divorce. I think she just came
out of a relationship and like She's like, I just
(02:30):
like she's feeling that loneliness even though she knew she
was so excited about coming out of that relationship and
understanding how bad it was. But now her new quest
is to fine that one again. And I was like, no,
I need to teach you to rethink this, because you
will in any perfect relationship, it can be the most perfect,
(02:53):
genuinely great relationship. If your search is based on someone else,
your happiness based on someone else, You're gonna be unhappy. Yeah.
And it's going to make you sad and like rip
that your expectations. Yeahs to you. That term soul mate,
(03:16):
I just hate it so much. But as again, as
we talked about all of these things, especially again in
that dating episode, Oh it is exhausting mm hmm. And
and that search being for us being told this is
the end goal. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And you know, we've talked about this in so many episodes,
but I don't know if I've ever shared this story.
When I was in high school, I created what I
called Operation Hot Husband. Oh h h uh, and I
was determined to find my and I was in high school,
you know, and uh also gay.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
But whatever, it's okay, we understand that I was.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I legitimately actually was, but I would go, like, looking
back at it, everything was fine, but I could have
put myself in some pretty dangerous situations because I was.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I was going to like bars as a high schooler, wow, to.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Meet a man, because I have this timeline and I'm
so sure by this time I had to do this.
By this time, I had to do this. I had
a whole like plant like home alone style, this is
how you do it. But I could have really put
myself in a dangerous situation for this story that has
(04:43):
been fed to me that is not.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
True and doesn't take.
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Into account the reality of a lot of things.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
Oh age ah.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
Operation hot husband ye wow, wow, Yeah that's a nugget.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I not know that was new. It was new for me.
That was new. But yeah, with all of these things, well,
there are some interesting responses to the article to the
fact again, other articles have been written in this conversation.
There are many also response videos talking about how they
(05:23):
aren't embarrassed by their boyfriends and and the such, and
seemingly to show off their boyfriend or more likely appealing
to the sexist audiences they have cul cultivated, being like
kind of like the treadwife type of conversation of like,
I'm not a feminist, I can cook video if you
know you know, if you know you know. This is
(05:44):
the same level of being like, not being embarrassed in
my boyfriend, my boyfriend does this, my boyfriend does this,
and this. I'm like, okay, this is one of those moments.
I'm like, tell me you haven't read the article without
telling me you haven't read the article type of conversation.
And one of those articles came from The Guardian. She
did read it. I think she did read it, to
(06:04):
be honest, but part of her response was kind of
a level of like, oh, well, if boyfriend having a
boyfriend is embarrassing me, having a husband is even more so,
Like but tell me gen z or because I don't
know Justph's age or anything. But it seemed like a
very much like that type of conversation, like does is
marring mom pants still as embarrassing as that is? Are
(06:26):
these things as embarrassing as that? I'm like, that's not
not necessarily, not necessarily what she's saying, and then criticizing
and being like, well, if that's embarrassing, what other types
of relationships would you consider embarrassing type of conversation. I'm like, wow, again,
I don't think you read what this article is. It's
(06:49):
not them versus us, it's not relationship versus single women. Like,
there's so much nuances to this conversation about like where
we have come and how far we have come along
and understanding we should have an identity beyond I am
someone's partner, I am someone's girlfriend, I am someone's wife, mom,
(07:11):
and I am someone's mom. But I like, that was
one article, but there's others who are like, you know what,
I get it, let's talk about this. So this is
from Dailyfreepress dot com and I believe it's an asque
abby but it's actually ask anal Analise Brunos the author,
and she writes women are not merely choosing to stay
(07:32):
single because boyfriends are embarrassing. As an abstract concept, this
isn't a quirky, cool, a chkh lifestyle choice. It's a
response to a much deeper systemic reality. Gender violence and
misogyny and the longstanding societal expectation that women exist primarily
as caregivers. With quote added romantic perks have shaped the
(07:55):
way women navigate intimacies. For centuries. The real truth behind
why so many women are deliberately single is more empowered
and profound. They are finding fulfillment, growth, and autonomy outside
of romantic relationships. I think it's what like that is
exactly like the level of understanding, and it's kind of
(08:16):
like that adventure in being able to do whatever you want,
however you want to eat, however you want to keep
the house, however you want to If you want that cat,
get that cat. If you don't want that cat, don't
get that cat. It's this level of understanding you really
only need to care for one person and you're not
(08:36):
responsible for multiple Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:40):
I think about this a lot with my mom because
you know, if a lot of times these conversations do
get kind of that's gen Z doing whatever. You know
what I you know, but my mom, after my dad died,
she's just said to me several times, have no interest
(09:01):
in finding anybody else. It's nice that I don't have
to worry about because he would get cranky, he needed
like food at this time, he hated going out with
the kid.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Like.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
She just had all of these things, and they did
love each other and they had a relationship that I
don't think she regrets, but I do think it's pretty
telling that she's like, it's kind of a relief now
that I don't have to be managing him so much
and his emotions so much while I'm also raising kids.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
I mean, we've talked about women coming in like their
second when they after their partners either divorce or die,
and the freedom and how much more they get to live.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Especially like older generations, you get married so young, so
it's so it is kind of like, well, I didn't
have that experience before I got married, so now I'm
getting to have.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
It right of seeing my parents who were happily married.
And I know, if we've talked about it, when one
of them dies, the other was going to quickly go
with them, Like if there was a true soul made situation,
(10:20):
this is it that they are. They've always been in alignment,
whether like they've also thrown things at each other and
screamed at each other and yelled at each other for sure,
but like my mother and father still make sure to
tell each other they love each other and call them
pet names like all these things, so they really feel
like they are each other's best choices and they made
the best choices However, my mother also has moments of like,
(10:43):
I never got to do these things that you got
to do. And she had plans as of recently to
try to do some of those things, but age and
pain and all these things circumstances have happened and she's
not able to do it. And I can tell as
she's talking about it, wanting to do those things and
being enabled to like really has those moments, And it
has nothing to do with my dad necessarily, like he
(11:04):
didn't hold her back, but she definitely started a family
in her teens with him, and they were not able
to do those things. They had the obligations without the
support and ability. Of course, back then you didn't think
they could. It was a glamorous ideal for people to
travel like that, not your everyday North Georgia mountains people
(11:24):
who are barely working through their jobs without with barely
their high school diplomas. So it was definitely a different
time and it wasn't a reality like there was no way.
As we're today, it is more accessible, but yeah, not
if you're still bound by those same having two to
three children, having very limited funds, trying to have a house,
(11:47):
all those things can Yeah, it kind of does feel
like it holds you back.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
It does, and it's it's one of those things that
really frustrates me because I just think this is this
is one of those it's hurting everybody because people do
want to be in relationships, and the truth of it
is that for so long, for women, a relationship does
(12:19):
come at a much higher cost than it does for men.
And I hate that because I have friends who want
that relationship but are like unwilling to pursue it, and
men who want to be in relationships, but women are like,
I don't know, I don't want to enter this because
I'm going to get trapped in something. And I feel
(12:41):
like my mom, what I would witness with her is
she was such a people pleaser and I am too,
and I'm pretty sure I got it from her that
she couldn't even though I feel like she's a strong, intelligent,
all of these things, but she felt like she had
to do this because her kids were involved, or she
(13:03):
just sacrificed so much. And that's it's almost kind of
a self sabotaging fear at a certain point, because I
was one of the reasons I didn't want to date
at first, was I knew that would happen to me.
I would get in a relationship and I would cave
because that's what I learned, That's what I saw growing up.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Right right, well, and again that's this whole other depth
of conversation of like motherhood and such and like this
is kind of pre because but you know what's coming
type of conversation and like is this worth sacrificing for
this dude?
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Yeah, you're thinking about that. I mean, we talked about
this in the Women in Men Lying about their Politics episode.
But I remember recently before I really came into my
identity as Ace, I sat down with a dude who
wanted He was like, I think we should date, and
I said, right then and there, listen here, I don't
want to get married.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
I don't want kids.
Speaker 2 (14:08):
Like I was just laying out all of this stuff
right away, immediate.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
This is my list.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
If I'm not going to just stop talking to me,
I've been wish you washing on it in the past,
but I'm not going to say not anymore.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
I found myself and I will say, okay, so do that.
Ask an elist article. She read this, she wrote this,
and I love it. They say it's beautiful, really whether
you're in a relationship or not. The truth is clear.
Men may need women, but women do not need men.
Understanding this is essential, not as a statement of superiority,
(14:43):
but as a foundation of self fulfillment. And especially as
we talk about the fact that women are having less children,
and we talked about like why are the many reasons
in financial one of them. Other part is growth in
career or other wants in their lives, and knowing that
having a child is not timely for whatever your goal
(15:05):
may be, especially for women men, bad life goes on oftentimes,
but like in this level of like understanding that self
fulfillment is kind of nice. Yeah, it is.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
And it's interesting to me that when when you you
sent this article to me, I was reminded of when
I was in high school.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was the local feminist.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
The real rabble rouser, uh. But there was this article
that came out when I was in high school that
was basically kind of like women really scientifically don't need
men anymore, and everyone would. All these boys in my
(15:57):
class came up at me and they were so angry
about it, and I was like, I'm not trying to
I'm not trying to make a huge point about how
you shouldn't exist or something. I'm just saying, this is
what the science says. Uh.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
And you know you don't have to date me. Uh,
I'm telling you this.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
It caused a huge firestorm. I just remember it, and
I was kind of taken aback by how angry these
boys were that there.
Speaker 1 (16:30):
Was this science article that I'd read that said it
explains where we are today kind of does. Oh, but
another article about it from her campus dot com had
actually a great explanation. Again, as we are talking about
(16:52):
the article, just this the article they write. Another big
part of this conversation is that for a lot of
straight women, it can feel like we're sleeping with the enemy. Now,
I'm not saying all men are awful people who shouldn't
be in relationships. What I'm saying is that many of
us are out here doing everything right. We're in college,
(17:13):
we're working full time, we have our own apartments, we
are actively dismantling the patriarchy in our personal lives. Yet
somehow a man is still in our bed, our mind,
our space. The separation of both can be hard to handle,
especially when he is the guy of your dreams. When
it is compatible, Okay, so that's the end of her quote,
(17:36):
and I think it's such a well said specifically for
how I feel. I'm like, Okay, I gotta do all
these things, and all these things that I did not
expect has happened, and to this point of like I
assumed I would be single for the rest of my life.
I assumed if I did date someone that one day
might be a person of color woman like a woman
(17:57):
of color like. But my family was very scared of this,
was very scared of this thought process. But like in
the expectation is no, Like I love my partner. He
is a good man who loves and treats me very well,
(18:18):
there are still things that both of us are working
through when it comes to dismantling, like internal misogyny and
patriarchy that has been systemic. Like you know when you
see generations before who are trying to unlearn that and
how far away from that they are, but they're still trying.
And then you see the younger generations learn even more
(18:41):
than that and grow out of that, but still have
to keep on learning. Like it's a concept conversation and
like it talks to we talk about this when it
comes to racism, as well, like, inherently all non black
people are racist towards black people. And I'm not saying
that we are all racists, like we're me angry like
as we see it, but there's internalized racism that have
(19:04):
pitoted us against a group of people because we do
not want to be at the bottom. And I say
this as a person that is Asian who have grown
up being told but you're not like them type of
rhetoric and was like, okay, like knowing that's wrong, but
knowing I also benefited off of that, you know what
(19:24):
I'm saying, Like there's an inherent level. And that's also
when it comes to men, like understanding being a man
is inherently meaning you have sexism built into your anatomy
because whether it was taught to you through jobs or
being treated preferentially over this or let you off on
(19:48):
some of these things that other people people of color
could not get away with, or women could not get
away with, or you know, like women are asked to
be have to overprove that they're qualified, that they are
never going to be okay without the extra degrees type
of thing or extra experiences or in that conversation or
you're not truly going to be believed unless you are
physically wearing the abuse on you, as in leg you
(20:12):
have marks on you have physical like all these things.
This is that conversation of like understanding, men are not
the enemy, but men still have a lot of unlearning. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:24):
And I also I think that it's misleading how some
people have reported on this article after it came out,
because people are so quick to do what I was saying,
where oh, so all men are bad? What was this?
I think that the reason this hit so hard is
(20:48):
not because the author was saying you shouldn't have a
boyfriend or you shouldn't have a partner or anything like that.
I mean, you're a Republican, Yeah, But I think that's
why it hits so hard, is why the question of
what is going on where so many people feel that way?
(21:11):
And I think it's very it's a systemic issue where
even if the person you are with is not like that,
you know that systemically, there's a lot of calls for
questions and things that need to change. So it's it's
more of a it's more of what can we do
(21:35):
to address why we feel like this.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Also, there's a big conversation in like I know the
queer community when it comes to intersectionally talking to two
gay white men and in like, hey, I there's a
lot of misogyny within the gay men culture and you
need to talk about it. We need to talk about that.
You don't get a pass just because you don't want
(22:10):
to date a woman. That's not the thing. We have
seen and witness many things where they think they can
get away with things, whether it's touch and grabbing, doing
things and things. But no, it's okay, I'm gay, which
doesn't happen a lot. There's like it's I'm not saying
because if we don't want to fit into the far
right narrative of like oh yeah, there definitely no no,
(22:31):
but that for some reason there is a level like
we can't hold accountability and you can't say there's misogyny
there when it's absolutely there's misogyny there. There's this conversation
that needs to be there just as much as we
have to say there's racism within the queer community as well.
Just because you're one part of the spe like intersexual spectrum,
doesn't mean the other doesn't apply to you or doesn't
(22:54):
affect you somehow, whether you're part of the problem or
part of like the victims like type of thing conversation,
and this is that same narrative, except we're looking at
the point of view of like me a feeling like,
how have I betrayed my people, my feminist people by
having an heterosexual assist relationship like kinds of conversation in
(23:20):
this and for me for again, I was single up
into my thirties, no relationships except for like a couple
of like high school relationships that were like we don't
talk to each other, we pass notes type of conversation
into my late twenties early thirties, and even then my
relationships lasted two four weeks at most. So this is
(23:43):
my one and only long term relationship because I didn't
mind when I let go of That'm like, oh maybe, yeah. Well.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
And that's the other thing that's that's usually weaponized against
swimming is something I told another.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Person who wanted to date me.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
I was I was trying so hard to figure out
I didn't want to date anybody, but anyway, I told
him I was not into romance. I didn't trust it.
And he said, that's one of the saddest things I've
ever heard. You should get into therapy, and I just
looking back that he he just wanted to convince me, Yeah,
(24:27):
you have to be in this heterosexual relationship or you're
it was it was. It was supposed to be like
a threat. It was supposed to scare me.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
Yeah, and it did hurt. Yeah, like it did hurt.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
But I remember thinking, I don't have to deal with you, right,
I could go home and BILLI would you.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Would put me in therapy and cost me a lot
more money. I don't have time for this, Like that's
exactly like the But being in this relationship that I
have been currently in, this long term, happy relationship that
I'm in, it does feel like a little bit of
when I tell people, know, it's good to be single,
because I wouldn't change it for anything, But like singleness
(25:15):
was good to me too. Yeah, and for those who've
gone through bad relationships, try out singleness. It's wonderful. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
Yeah, And I think that's that's a good nuance to
add is knowing how beautiful a relationship can be if
it's supportive, but also knowing that yeah, if I'll be
all right.
Speaker 1 (25:43):
That's that's like this is not a or if it's
an okay.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
And yeah, this is nice, right someone around as happy.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
As we are. We know, things happen. Things happen, whether
it's by choice or not by choice, like whatever it
may be, and you need to be okay in what
that comes. People change, people grow, People will have different
interests and ideologies. Unfortunately, I have changed from ten years
to now, you know, and I'm sure things will change
even more. So hopefully we get more progressive, you know,
(26:15):
and more for more human humanities. What that looks like later,
I don't know, And I will say. This was the
end of her Joseph's article. When talking about singleness and
all of this, they say, uh, is something to be
said to embracing that singleness? She writes, this is also
(26:36):
happening alongside a wave of women reclaiming and romanticizing their
single life. Where being single was once a cautionary telle
You'll end up a spinster with loads of cats. Sounds
fun of me, and just now becoming a desirable and
covetous status, another nail in the coffin of a centuries
old heterosexual fairy tale that never really benefited women to
(26:58):
begin with.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
Yeah, I think I think so, and I think this
is great that we're having these conversations about how relationships
can look if you want one.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Women clearly.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Are fed up that this is not working for them
and it hasn't been working for them, and so I've
been really hopeful about some of the conversations I've seen
in recent years. There is obviously the conservative backlash that
makes me really angry, but I have been hopeful in
hearing people talk about, you know, maybe we should reconsider
(27:42):
what this looks like and how we can make this work.
And that makes me happy, right glad.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Yeah, And again, like as you were saying, and I
not to tell and brag about anything, but like, I
feel like my relationship is really great. We work a
lot really well together, and the traumas and the bad
things that have happened, it's been amazing to have him
(28:11):
as a support. I also feel like I'm not embarrassed
to show him off. I don't feel like he can't
come out if it's just a group of girls, you
know what I mean. Like he is oftentimes the only dude.
He's great. He's a great addition he is, and that
is something that is beneficial. Like he adds to the conversation,
(28:33):
he listens, he encourages so all of those good things.
So having a relationship is not the end all. Like
we're not saying that that's bad. I'm not that saying that.
But I understand this conversation and I do love the
turnaround in this level of like, yeah, that's not the solution.
Having a relationship is not a solution. It can be.
It should be a benefit, it should be an added plus.
(28:56):
If it's a negative, then we yes, we really need
to think about why why is this one? Right? But like,
being single is not like when people say the words
you're going to be single all your life, don't threaten
me with a good time and more money? What? Yeah,
you know, Like those are those moments and understanding that.
(29:18):
And of course this also has that conversation of women
making like more friends and having more friends and being
a little less lonely or being able to have a
solution when you feel lonely. Yeah, so that's definitely that
conversation too. So but again her putting that phrase out
(29:39):
there really ruffle some feathers and then also really gave
some victory laps to people. I love that too. It
is a conversation Starughter, and I love it.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, I do too. I really think that this is
hitting something that has just been boiling under the surface
for a while, and even looking.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Back at my own.
Speaker 2 (30:06):
Dating experiences, where you know, in the beginning, I would
be very sure, I'll make your food or whatever whatever
it looks like, and to getting into huge fights with
my last X or I just wouldn't have ever done
that before. But I just felt there wasn't inequality in
(30:28):
our relationship and that he didn't see it. And I
think that's happening more and more with people, and we
should be asking.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Why why is that?
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So many thoughts, so many thoughts I didn't even get into.
I recently stumbled into a whole argument about women changing
their married name their name when they get married, and
I didn't I used to. We did an episode on
That's Minty long time ago, and I got a lot
of angry male about it, but I wasn't saying there's
(31:05):
anything bad about it. I was just kind of going
over the facts of the history of it. But apparently
this is still a huge, huge contention point. So weds, Yes,
Kristen got called up for that.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, like weddings like that's still very controversial type what
do you what does the symbolize do you want this exactly?
That's a lot, you know.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
Sometimes sometimes you just want to have a tradition, but you.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
But of what you want exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
But clearly it is still something that people are feel
a certain way about. They do and we did as well.
That's why it's a two parter. And and I feel
like my next one about moms being mad in media
is actually related to all of this.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
I'm very excited.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
You can listen out for that one, but in the meantime, listeners.
If you have any thoughts about this, you can email
us at hellot Stuffnever Told You dot com. You can
find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff. Podcasts are
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I Never Told You
for us on YouTube. We have some new merchandise at
Common Bureau and we have a book you can get
wherever you get your books. Thanks It's Always too our
(32:23):
super produced Christina executive produced to my and.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Your contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Listening Stuff Never Told You to put to my heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can check
out the heart Radio app app a podcast wherever you
listen to your favorite shows,
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
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Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
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