August 18, 2025 • 26 mins
While fandom can provide community and so much more, it can also lead to unhealthy parasocial relationships. And even when healthy, girls are often demonized for it. We dig into some recent events and research.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Steff. I never told you prediction by
her idio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
And Okay, first let me say immediately before we start
this Monday Mini, this is not an attack on fans
and fandom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Okay an, okay, okay, all right, okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So we are obviously talking about fans, fandoms and obsessions,
and I know we've talked a lot about fandoms, and
I think it's important to kind of continue this conversation
because you're about to hear our episode of cap Pop
Demon Hunter, which I kind of will bring up a
second about the fandom in general and why this may
(00:50):
be as big as it is. But yes, so I
am specifically talking more about what is happening in the
K pop world and kind of it's correlation with fandoms,
which we've talked about in our k Pop episode. We've
talked about fandoms, we talked about in stands, so we
definitely talked about it, but I thought we'd come back
and revisit and just and just kind of as a
reminder of like, hey, cap pop people are people. Fandoms
(01:16):
need is great, but also there can be an unhealthy level,
So we just kind of wanted to come into that.
So for context, there was actually a fairly recent social
media video of a girl or a fan using a
voiceover of a kpop group like they're doing a sound check.
You get early access, you pay a lot of money
(01:37):
for some of these things and fan interactions, and it's
that voice if you know, you know the TikTok video
like Ladies, Ladies, I'm just trying to get my job done.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's kind of like go through the shift kind of
day type of it's really funny, like it's just like
essentially like girls fanning over this. He's pretending like someone's
fanning over him and be like ladies, ladies, and so
into a video. Very cute, moving on, and somehow that
turned into another fan saying that her moment was stolen
(02:09):
by this video and that they were having they being
the fan and the pop star having a private moment
in front of a large crowd, and that the video
shouldn't be used because or at least like the video
is somewhat stolen somehow because it was for a moment
for her alone, her and him, and for them alone.
It was for nobody else and y'all did. She was
(02:30):
very possessive, like y'all needed this is cute. Literally, she
starts with I don't like how cute this video is
and all but and that's how she starts to the
point that everybody thought it was originally satire, like you know,
there's a lot of like, this is my husband, this
is whatever, whatnot cool? Everybody understood that, but it wasn't satire.
(02:52):
She legitimately was upset and was arguing with many a fans,
many of other people being like hey, someone was so confused,
was like, are you insinuating that she stole your video?
Because that is a problem. Content stealing is pretty big
and a huge thing. And she said yes, but they're like, wait,
so that was your video. She's like, no, but that
(03:12):
should have been a video just for me. So it
was very confusing and everybody was like wait, and of
course the internet was concerned, and a lot of backlash happened.
It stretched from her being accusing her of being obsessive
to stalking to being like a K pop person, you
might want to be careful because she's also talked about
how she was going to be at the next show
(03:33):
and the next show, which a lot of people do
travel and go see the shows. We'll see more than
one show. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure the
groups are really excited you're doing that. Please buy their tickets,
they say. But it also ranged to the void, like
it kind of became ageist a little bit too, where
they were like, hey, you're in your late thirties, you
need to grow up. And again, it's not the same thing,
(03:53):
but it does kind of like, well, yeah, it feels
like you're too old for this specific behavior, which is
both a just but at the same time valid. And
also she's married, so everybody was like, you really think
you're having an emotional connection, maybe a sexual connections, some
kind of a bond here that you're willing to that.
(04:19):
I don't think she's necessarily trying to sacrifice her marriage,
but she's not. She doesn't care that this is happening
on top of it. Like if this was a real interaction,
let's say with your coworker, where you are having moments
that would be really really concerned, and you believe that
there were moments that's concerning for a relationship unless you
have an agreement, which maybe they have and consent is great,
(04:39):
So there was a lot of thoughts, a lot a
lot of thoughts, and again, I'm not gonna lie, it
does feel concerning. I was kind of I'm sarcastic, I
am all the things that you would think, but it
did put me on the level like is she okay?
Is there something happening that maybe there's this underlying thing
that we need to talk about, and yes, go again,
(05:02):
go back to our k pop episodes and fandom. But
we have talked about an interesting level of ownership that
fans often have, especially in the K pop world, like
the layers of the fact that if a K pop
stars date someone, they leave reaths, funeral reaths in front
of their companies to tell them you are dead to
(05:24):
me and that they need to leave the company. A
young woman was came out late twenties, by the way,
mid late twenties came out about dating a star who
was also beloved in South Korea. People were mad and
they're like, are we not good enough for you? People
being the fans, people that she has never met, she
will never meet, that she will never have full relationships with.
(05:46):
So it was kind of like, wow, okay. And again
the antis aa say songs which we've talked about before.
Also came from kind of like cake pop terminology and
why they arose the fact because of the level of
intensity of both love and hate for these groups, so
it sounded like this larger level, and again specific to
(06:06):
the k pop world, writers talk talk about the harmful
parasocial relationships, saying, well, specifically this, so here's one. This
is from a Medium article by Evanna who was a
guest writer, titled the Harmful Consumerism and Unhealthy parasocial Relationships
within the K pop community. And when we're talking about
the kapop consumerism, there was a whole thing where they
would buy records upon records and just throw away the
(06:29):
records to get cards. So everybody's like, oh, that is
so wasteful. Yeah yeah, because they had already had one,
so they're just like, we don't want this, we want
the cards. So and the fact they was littering all
of like South Korean streets and people were like, this
is really concerning and concerning like on the level of environmentally,
so y'all need to think about this anyway. But on
top of that, the parasocial relationships, this is what they
(06:51):
write individuals not being able to make connections with people
actively present in their lives can lead them into worse
depression and complex emotions. They thought they were fixing with
this peril social relationships with the world after the COVID
nineteen going through a loneliness epidemic and young people age
fifteen to twenty five now having seventy percent less social
interactions with their friends and individual leaving a musical genre
(07:13):
as her own only means of coping will become damaging
in the future. So there's all these like statistics and
research that she is using in this context as well.
But the fact that this really grew open to the
point that people have isolated themselves. Young fans have isolated themselves.
Is one thing to have a fan base and to
(07:35):
love and be a part of a fan base. We've
seen how that can grow communities, which is amazing, but
we've also seen the level of things like this where
this woman kind of isolated herself because she is attacking
other fans for stealing her moment and she became a punchline.
So I wonder how damaging that will be for her.
But and if at any point if he this actual
(07:59):
k pops are word to address her specifically and like
crush her dreams. What does that do for her? That's
kind of breakup. It is a breakup because she truly believed,
if she truly believes, and I'm still gonna hang on
to a small glimmer of hope that she's just in
it for the views a little bit, a little bit,
(08:19):
but like, if this is true to her, that type
of breakup can be really really damaging. I could only imagine.
Because there's also a heartbreak when you love something so much.
And we've talked about this in the Harry Potter episode
because of j K Rowling and her horrifying inhumane responses
to the trans community and queer community, what it feels
(08:42):
like to be sabotaged when you love something so purely.
And this is kind of that same level. Like this
can be really really detrimental, and it could be harmful
to your relationships. Like if you have built relationships and
you have this kind of like breakup and it becomes
a point of concern, what happens to those real friendships
that you thought this was the tie for you. And
(09:14):
then with the Korean standards of beauty, which often have
led to bullying, psychological damage, and overall toxic behavior. The
idea of perfection in these plandems can be pretty toxic
in itself. So this was from another article from scottscoop
dot com which is talking about teenagers and the idolization
of the celebrities, and they say, while any person can
(09:37):
view the lives of a celebrity distorted by social media,
many teenagers easily find themselves falling into the rabbit hole
of obsession. They can stemble upon a false sense of
perfection as they come through the edited lives of celebrities,
creating a mania that can only be highly destructive and
hard to break out of. So I'm specifically thinking again
he was addressing like things like swifties and talking about
(09:59):
her was seemingly perfect life at times, where you you know,
have those beautiful relationships and she travels and you know,
the perfect games, all her friends having fun. That's one thing.
But the level that we have with K pop stars
is different in that they have been cultivated from fairly
young age. I think they start like ten to eleven.
They can as young as ten and eleven, even younger,
(10:20):
going to camps, getting plastic surgery go ahead and being
told you can eat certain amount of things like they
are cultivated and if they don't make it, which only
a small percentage, do they owe all of this money
back to these companies. It feels like a racket, and
I feel like we need to talk about this a
little more. We have talked a little bit about K
pop culture, but I feel like we need to investigate
(10:42):
them as a really bad capitalistic corporation that prays upon
young kids trying to be famous. But that's a whole
different issue. But with that, we know they use this
in order to entice young people to come into these fandoms,
but not only to be in fandoms, dream that they
could be a part of these types of groups as well.
So if there's so many dangerous things onto that. And again,
(11:05):
their personalities are cultivated by their companies, and so oftentimes
that's not even who they are, which I hate to
say out loud. So in that same article, they go
back and talking about specific agendas and different studies, and
they say in the studies, some of the most common
negative impacts included psychological harms such as jealousy, loneliness, anxiety,
(11:29):
and reducing self esteem, as well as things like exposure
to malicious software and fishing risks, which actually we haven't
talked enough about that, because that's actually true. The amount
of scams.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Of like you can meet this yes, but person.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But also have you seen the ones who be like, hey,
this is a I've seen one of us, like this
is the weekend, I need you to send me one
hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Oh really yeses.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
But there was also we just recently that I saw
not a K pop star, but just the celebrity from
the New Girls, the dude who placed Nick saying, hey,
it was so good to meet you last night. Thank
you so much for hanging us out with us, And
she was like a twenty he said. She said that
she was twenty and giving us all this good advice.
And he was like, wait, don't I don't. I don't
know what you're talking about. I don't know you. I
don't live there. I wasn't there. I'm over here. She's like, no, no,
(12:15):
this is us, and she sends a picture this dude
pretended to beat him and he's like, hey, if he's
trying to get with you, he's lying to you and
he's baiting you. And you're also really young. I am
he's forty five, he's like, there's no need for someone
forty five talking to a twenty year old like he
was really concerned.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's fair. I would hate for my name to be
used in some kind of scheme like.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, which happens a lot more than you think, for
people fishing out there to get these types of young
girls thinking that they won. And we also know that.
And I want to talk about a little more about
like celebrities actually doing these things themselves become predators. Yeah,
but again they go on to talk about how teenage
obsession would seemingly flawless celebrities can only heighten these feelings
(12:58):
as users idolized and surround themselves with their curated images
of lavish lifestyles, perfect skin, glowing hair, and beautiful bodies. Again,
should be reminded that this isn't just for teens, okay.
With weight loss drugs and more and weight loss trends
as well as anti aging narratives, the older generations are
also having to battle the idea of looking younger or
(13:19):
at least not as old as you are, which I
fallen trap. Of the amount of Korean products that I bought.
It's not a lot, but I've definitely spent money Anyway,
moving on, of course, we need to talk about the
access of social media and how that plays into it
as well. The article goes on saying this, because the
online world idolizes celebrities so much, they seem to become
(13:40):
untouchable everyday citizens are often not knowledgeable about the boundaries
they need to set between themselves and an icon. This
can be seen in critiquing a celebrity's body, relationship, art, behavior,
or persona. Many fail to understand the ramifications of these
types of criticisms, so it kind of goes bigger into
that conversation. And so when you're using the fandoms to escape,
(14:03):
which is not a bad thing, it can be healthy.
There's also a chance that dependency can become problematic. So
from a substance media article, they write at times many
people have become absolutely dependent on these artists for happiness
to the point where it affects their sense of morality
or ability to comfort themselves both mentally and physically. People
(14:26):
will also go to links of sending death threats and
docs and people on behalf of these public figures harming
other people on the internet in the long run, And
we've talked about this again in the K pop as
well as we talked about this in the stands. I
believe in general how racism has become rampant in this area,
(14:46):
and like if a black fan comes in, they will
often be attacked. They will often be told they're not
welcome there. They will often be told that the level
of microaggression that's happening is not there. If someone were
to speak up as say that feels like cultural appropriation,
they will be immediately attacked, immediately blacklisted until they're being
too sensitive, which is getting worse by the way, this
(15:09):
whole level of I can do that you're being too sensitive.
It's all about race, like I hate it here. And
of course there are the moments when the celebrities break
your heart. There are current issues with BTS specifically and
the fact that a couple of the members have sponsored
things that seem pro zionis and they're really concerned and
disappointed by that. Possible questions of queer baiting, which any
(15:32):
I know, we've talked about queer bating, and we usually
typically talk about that as like fictional characters or all that,
but is that a thing in live bands? Like there
was a moment where someone came out being by and
people accuse them of queer baiting, and the question was,
but if they're by, how are they're queer baiting? They're queer,
that's not a thing, versus when you do have like
(15:53):
one we talked about Mama Move being a big K
pop group and one specific artists who loves dancing on women,
but it's obviously in a relationship with a man and
she's never come out, not that she has to because
it's not a thing. But at the same time, is
that a form of quibit because she knows she has
a stronger fan base with the women. What are your.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Thoughts, Oh, it's complicated. I do think in those examples specifically,
there are biratures still pretty real, and that's kind of
hard to don't. I don't know. It's not for me
to say, like, just because a woman is dating a
man doesn't mean she's not queer. But there there's definitely
(16:32):
been instances where I have known, not necessarily with bands,
but with actors where they know it's usually men, and
the ones I'm thinking of, they know that their fan
base has a lot of usually women, who are like
slashing them together, and they'll play into it. But usually
kind of like like it's fun, but you can almost
(16:53):
pick up the undercurrent of derision.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Okay, yeah, and that's that's a big level of conversation
of Like, also there was a conversation and like this
person shouldn't represent a queer person or this person shouldn't
do that because they're not out. And then they're like,
why do you have why do you have to out
someone in order for this to be a thing? So
like there's so many levels to that that I have questions,
But you know, that is also heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking
(17:18):
when you see K pop stars who are in an
area where like bl Boy Love we talked about that
and O K drama stuff and stuff like that, and
then they're outright homophobic. That is a bit of a pill.
And I've seen that happen quite often in the K
pop industry. And then again we talked about the racism thing.
(17:47):
It's getting worse. There's a group that was formed recently
with some of the bigger dancer stars and like I
have followed a couple of these dancers in the US.
Bailey Sucks one of her names, and she was dancing
since the age of like five four. I don't know
young and I have watched her in the in she's
been a part of the California studios. She's been amazing,
(18:07):
and now she's a part of a K pop coup
called All Day I believe. However, within that, obviously she's
from the US, from California, so or another members. They
have a guy in there named who calls himself Tarzan
and loves the hell out of some cornrows and all
of the braids that are not and everybody's like, what
are you doing? And apparently just said the N word
(18:28):
for no reason allowed. That was an ad lib, like
it wasn't a part of song, which still, why would
it be? That was odd. Some of the fans don't
seem to have a problem and they think this is okay,
and the fact that this is a newly formed group
as in like the last couple of months, this is concerning.
And the fact that this is being disregarded by not
only the K pop community but also the actual industry
(18:49):
and being okay with it, that's really concerning. So stuff
like that is heartbreaking to see, and that's when you
lose all respect and you lose something that you loved
and it probably invested a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. After we did that Harry Potter episode,
I was looking at all my Yeah, I don't know
what to do with it because I don't want to
like I don't want it a round, but I don't
want to waste.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah. Well, like it's too late, like you, I feel
like I'm already.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I've heard the money is. So it's like I just
pack it up in a box and put it away.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Maybe they're talking about a group. Babe, one of my
favorite UH Korean pop stars who was actually in acting
now she's adorable as hell. Uh talked about the fact
that her light sticks or sixty dollars piece of plastic
with a little bit of a light bulb and there
was sixty dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Can you imagine spending that anyway? It's an investment. But again,
so with all of that, yes, and there's also, as
we mentioned before, celebrities who are actual predators and seemingly untouchable. Actually,
several of the squid games who have gotten huge, including
one of the dudes who was in K Pop Demon Hunter,
which I realized later was accused of sexual assault or
(20:02):
sexual harassment at the very least. So there's a lot
of things that you're like, that's really that's appointing. How
do I love something when there's so many like that's
a portion to this that I hate. Ah, But I
would be remiss if we did not jump into the
fact that there are in our episodes on fangirls, there
(20:22):
is also a conversation where this is also kind of
a steeped and misogyny when we talk about the obsession
and I'm putting that in quotes and about being healthy. Now,
I think there is a middle ground to everything. I
am all about balance. I am a libra to the core,
so I think there has to be a healthy balance.
But with that, yes, there is also their misogynistic take
(20:45):
on fangirls, and we cannot ignore that either. This is
from a twenty twenty three article written by Alisha Lansam,
and she says this, this pattern of being penalized for
being a girl with emotions is something I find uncomfortably familiar.
At the height of the twenty tens, my dedication to
Justin Bieber, one of the best selling artists in music history,
was regularly joked about at school. My commitment to being
(21:09):
a believer was seen as delusional at worst, and uncool
at best. Even the media called us out for our
beaber fever, with articles at the time stating that research
into the made up condition showed it to be more
infectious than measles. The symptoms, they said included poor life choices,
uncontrollable crying, and screaming symptoms of illness. Like Benny, I
(21:32):
brushed off the label as funny, but it was hard
not to internalize the idea of being perceived as ridiculous
on the world stage. While I was laughed at for
knowing my face's birthday and the words to all his songs,
my guy friends could discuss every injury their favorite football
player had ever had and be thought of as well informed.
As I ripped posters of Bieber out of magazines, it
(21:53):
was common to see neighboring articles using words like mad, stalker,
and scary. The sentiment was loud and clear. When girls
know a lot about something they love, they're crazy. When
boys do, they're passionate. Which, yeah, we've talked about that previously.
We've talked about that before. That just because it's a
girl liking something does not diminish the fact that they
are important, that something has happened, and that they are,
(22:16):
these girls are powerful, they are her power machines, or
these fans are and a little bit more from a
different article they write this. Professor Sarah bannitt Weiser, co
author of Believability, Sexual Violence, Media, and the Politics of Doubt,
believes this characterization of fangirls as potentially fanatical is unfairly
connected to the scritiny of women in general. As far
(22:36):
as I know, most of the cases of fans stalking
and being violent against celebrities are men, she tells Refinary
twenty nine. General findings show that stalkers are more often
SISCE men than women. The idea that women fans are
unstable is a real issue, as it connects to women
being seen as irrational. She explains, So, even though I
did start off with a very example of the first
(22:59):
woman again and in the perception of like she might
be a little too much at this point attacking other fans,
we know that it's not typically women who are causing harm.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yes, yes, and you know, interestingly, you can go see
the feminist movie Friday we did on Turning Red where
we talked about this. But there's also a lot more
to be said about women not having safe spaces to
express sexuality in our society. And so when you get
(23:31):
in a lot of cases anyway, when you have this
crush on a celebrity and you're screaming and you know
their birthday and all of that, a lot of times
it's because you don't feel safe doing that with real
person in your life, or you might be judged for it,
or Shane Fort in a clearly you're still being judged
in Shane Fort can't win. But people will call you out.
(23:56):
You're real, You're irl.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Colleagues, we'll be like and yeah, and again this kind
of goes back to the happy hour that I talked
about and like enjoying things like that I wish I
could have done as a child, but I couldn't because
I couldn't be a child. And now growing up, now
finding a moment be like I actually really enjoyed this,
and I want to love it and I want to
dedicate to it. Like there's this difference of like trying
to find the balance once again. But yeah, is ever
(24:24):
growing too, the fandoms are with social media, I really
connected all over the world.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because I
also have an episode on Phantom coming up, it's our
big Fantom month. But I really think that the Internet
and social media has changed and continues to change this
conversation because even though that existed when I was young,
when Justin Bieber and the Believers were around, it's just
(24:54):
gotten more and more. And I really think that access
and going back to a recent conversation we had about
you know, it's not everyone who is like this, but
some people online take up so much space that they
make you feel like, is everyone like this? Plenty of
(25:14):
people they can be very fanish about something but also
not harrassed people, right, but people still, I mean, that's
a real problem. And yeah, we'll talk about it a
little bit more in my coming up one. But that
whole idea of if people are online you can just
say anything right now, there's still still people exactly no need,
(25:38):
no need, no need. Well, gosh, we've got so many,
so many avenues we could go down with that. But
in the meantime, listeners, if you have any thoughts about
this or anything you would like for us to explore
around this, please let us know. You can emails at Hello,
at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find
us some pou skuyt mop Stuff podcast or on Instagram
(26:00):
and TikTok at stuff When Never Told You for us
on YouTube and we have a book you can get
where you get your books. Thanks as always start a
super produced Christine, are excited to producer my Inner contributor Joey,
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff will
Never Told You to production of My Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to
your favorite shows
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
I'm welcome to Steff. I never told you prediction by
her idio.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
And Okay, first let me say immediately before we start
this Monday Mini, this is not an attack on fans
and fandom.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Okay an, okay, okay, all right, okay, all right.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
So we are obviously talking about fans, fandoms and obsessions,
and I know we've talked a lot about fandoms, and
I think it's important to kind of continue this conversation
because you're about to hear our episode of cap Pop
Demon Hunter, which I kind of will bring up a
second about the fandom in general and why this may
(00:50):
be as big as it is. But yes, so I
am specifically talking more about what is happening in the
K pop world and kind of it's correlation with fandoms,
which we've talked about in our k Pop episode. We've
talked about fandoms, we talked about in stands, so we
definitely talked about it, but I thought we'd come back
and revisit and just and just kind of as a
reminder of like, hey, cap pop people are people. Fandoms
(01:16):
need is great, but also there can be an unhealthy level,
So we just kind of wanted to come into that.
So for context, there was actually a fairly recent social
media video of a girl or a fan using a
voiceover of a kpop group like they're doing a sound check.
You get early access, you pay a lot of money
(01:37):
for some of these things and fan interactions, and it's
that voice if you know, you know the TikTok video
like Ladies, Ladies, I'm just trying to get my job done.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
It's kind of like go through the shift kind of
day type of it's really funny, like it's just like
essentially like girls fanning over this. He's pretending like someone's
fanning over him and be like ladies, ladies, and so
into a video. Very cute, moving on, and somehow that
turned into another fan saying that her moment was stolen
(02:09):
by this video and that they were having they being
the fan and the pop star having a private moment
in front of a large crowd, and that the video
shouldn't be used because or at least like the video
is somewhat stolen somehow because it was for a moment
for her alone, her and him, and for them alone.
It was for nobody else and y'all did. She was
(02:30):
very possessive, like y'all needed this is cute. Literally, she
starts with I don't like how cute this video is
and all but and that's how she starts to the
point that everybody thought it was originally satire, like you know,
there's a lot of like, this is my husband, this
is whatever, whatnot cool? Everybody understood that, but it wasn't satire.
(02:52):
She legitimately was upset and was arguing with many a fans,
many of other people being like hey, someone was so confused,
was like, are you insinuating that she stole your video?
Because that is a problem. Content stealing is pretty big
and a huge thing. And she said yes, but they're like, wait,
so that was your video. She's like, no, but that
(03:12):
should have been a video just for me. So it
was very confusing and everybody was like wait, and of
course the internet was concerned, and a lot of backlash happened.
It stretched from her being accusing her of being obsessive
to stalking to being like a K pop person, you
might want to be careful because she's also talked about
how she was going to be at the next show
(03:33):
and the next show, which a lot of people do
travel and go see the shows. We'll see more than
one show. There's nothing wrong with that. I'm sure the
groups are really excited you're doing that. Please buy their tickets,
they say. But it also ranged to the void, like
it kind of became ageist a little bit too, where
they were like, hey, you're in your late thirties, you
need to grow up. And again, it's not the same thing,
(03:53):
but it does kind of like, well, yeah, it feels
like you're too old for this specific behavior, which is
both a just but at the same time valid. And
also she's married, so everybody was like, you really think
you're having an emotional connection, maybe a sexual connections, some
kind of a bond here that you're willing to that.
(04:19):
I don't think she's necessarily trying to sacrifice her marriage,
but she's not. She doesn't care that this is happening
on top of it. Like if this was a real interaction,
let's say with your coworker, where you are having moments
that would be really really concerned, and you believe that
there were moments that's concerning for a relationship unless you
have an agreement, which maybe they have and consent is great,
(04:39):
So there was a lot of thoughts, a lot a
lot of thoughts, and again, I'm not gonna lie, it
does feel concerning. I was kind of I'm sarcastic, I
am all the things that you would think, but it
did put me on the level like is she okay?
Is there something happening that maybe there's this underlying thing
that we need to talk about, and yes, go again,
(05:02):
go back to our k pop episodes and fandom. But
we have talked about an interesting level of ownership that
fans often have, especially in the K pop world, like
the layers of the fact that if a K pop
stars date someone, they leave reaths, funeral reaths in front
of their companies to tell them you are dead to
(05:24):
me and that they need to leave the company. A
young woman was came out late twenties, by the way,
mid late twenties came out about dating a star who
was also beloved in South Korea. People were mad and
they're like, are we not good enough for you? People
being the fans, people that she has never met, she
will never meet, that she will never have full relationships with.
(05:46):
So it was kind of like, wow, okay. And again
the antis aa say songs which we've talked about before.
Also came from kind of like cake pop terminology and
why they arose the fact because of the level of
intensity of both love and hate for these groups, so
it sounded like this larger level, and again specific to
(06:06):
the k pop world, writers talk talk about the harmful
parasocial relationships, saying, well, specifically this, so here's one. This
is from a Medium article by Evanna who was a
guest writer, titled the Harmful Consumerism and Unhealthy parasocial Relationships
within the K pop community. And when we're talking about
the kapop consumerism, there was a whole thing where they
would buy records upon records and just throw away the
(06:29):
records to get cards. So everybody's like, oh, that is
so wasteful. Yeah yeah, because they had already had one,
so they're just like, we don't want this, we want
the cards. So and the fact they was littering all
of like South Korean streets and people were like, this
is really concerning and concerning like on the level of environmentally,
so y'all need to think about this anyway. But on
top of that, the parasocial relationships, this is what they
(06:51):
write individuals not being able to make connections with people
actively present in their lives can lead them into worse
depression and complex emotions. They thought they were fixing with
this peril social relationships with the world after the COVID
nineteen going through a loneliness epidemic and young people age
fifteen to twenty five now having seventy percent less social
interactions with their friends and individual leaving a musical genre
(07:13):
as her own only means of coping will become damaging
in the future. So there's all these like statistics and
research that she is using in this context as well.
But the fact that this really grew open to the
point that people have isolated themselves. Young fans have isolated themselves.
Is one thing to have a fan base and to
(07:35):
love and be a part of a fan base. We've
seen how that can grow communities, which is amazing, but
we've also seen the level of things like this where
this woman kind of isolated herself because she is attacking
other fans for stealing her moment and she became a punchline.
So I wonder how damaging that will be for her.
But and if at any point if he this actual
(07:59):
k pops are word to address her specifically and like
crush her dreams. What does that do for her? That's
kind of breakup. It is a breakup because she truly believed,
if she truly believes, and I'm still gonna hang on
to a small glimmer of hope that she's just in
it for the views a little bit, a little bit,
(08:19):
but like, if this is true to her, that type
of breakup can be really really damaging. I could only imagine.
Because there's also a heartbreak when you love something so much.
And we've talked about this in the Harry Potter episode
because of j K Rowling and her horrifying inhumane responses
to the trans community and queer community, what it feels
(08:42):
like to be sabotaged when you love something so purely.
And this is kind of that same level. Like this
can be really really detrimental, and it could be harmful
to your relationships. Like if you have built relationships and
you have this kind of like breakup and it becomes
a point of concern, what happens to those real friendships
that you thought this was the tie for you. And
(09:14):
then with the Korean standards of beauty, which often have
led to bullying, psychological damage, and overall toxic behavior. The
idea of perfection in these plandems can be pretty toxic
in itself. So this was from another article from scottscoop
dot com which is talking about teenagers and the idolization
of the celebrities, and they say, while any person can
(09:37):
view the lives of a celebrity distorted by social media,
many teenagers easily find themselves falling into the rabbit hole
of obsession. They can stemble upon a false sense of
perfection as they come through the edited lives of celebrities,
creating a mania that can only be highly destructive and
hard to break out of. So I'm specifically thinking again
he was addressing like things like swifties and talking about
(09:59):
her was seemingly perfect life at times, where you you know,
have those beautiful relationships and she travels and you know,
the perfect games, all her friends having fun. That's one thing.
But the level that we have with K pop stars
is different in that they have been cultivated from fairly
young age. I think they start like ten to eleven.
They can as young as ten and eleven, even younger,
(10:20):
going to camps, getting plastic surgery go ahead and being
told you can eat certain amount of things like they
are cultivated and if they don't make it, which only
a small percentage, do they owe all of this money
back to these companies. It feels like a racket, and
I feel like we need to talk about this a
little more. We have talked a little bit about K
pop culture, but I feel like we need to investigate
(10:42):
them as a really bad capitalistic corporation that prays upon
young kids trying to be famous. But that's a whole
different issue. But with that, we know they use this
in order to entice young people to come into these fandoms,
but not only to be in fandoms, dream that they
could be a part of these types of groups as well.
So if there's so many dangerous things onto that. And again,
(11:05):
their personalities are cultivated by their companies, and so oftentimes
that's not even who they are, which I hate to
say out loud. So in that same article, they go
back and talking about specific agendas and different studies, and
they say in the studies, some of the most common
negative impacts included psychological harms such as jealousy, loneliness, anxiety,
(11:29):
and reducing self esteem, as well as things like exposure
to malicious software and fishing risks, which actually we haven't
talked enough about that, because that's actually true. The amount
of scams.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Of like you can meet this yes, but person.
Speaker 1 (11:44):
But also have you seen the ones who be like, hey,
this is a I've seen one of us, like this
is the weekend, I need you to send me one
hundred dollars.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Oh really yeses.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
But there was also we just recently that I saw
not a K pop star, but just the celebrity from
the New Girls, the dude who placed Nick saying, hey,
it was so good to meet you last night. Thank
you so much for hanging us out with us, And
she was like a twenty he said. She said that
she was twenty and giving us all this good advice.
And he was like, wait, don't I don't. I don't
know what you're talking about. I don't know you. I
don't live there. I wasn't there. I'm over here. She's like, no, no,
(12:15):
this is us, and she sends a picture this dude
pretended to beat him and he's like, hey, if he's
trying to get with you, he's lying to you and
he's baiting you. And you're also really young. I am
he's forty five, he's like, there's no need for someone
forty five talking to a twenty year old like he
was really concerned.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
That's fair. I would hate for my name to be
used in some kind of scheme like.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Right, which happens a lot more than you think, for
people fishing out there to get these types of young
girls thinking that they won. And we also know that.
And I want to talk about a little more about
like celebrities actually doing these things themselves become predators. Yeah,
but again they go on to talk about how teenage
obsession would seemingly flawless celebrities can only heighten these feelings
(12:58):
as users idolized and surround themselves with their curated images
of lavish lifestyles, perfect skin, glowing hair, and beautiful bodies. Again,
should be reminded that this isn't just for teens, okay.
With weight loss drugs and more and weight loss trends
as well as anti aging narratives, the older generations are
also having to battle the idea of looking younger or
(13:19):
at least not as old as you are, which I
fallen trap. Of the amount of Korean products that I bought.
It's not a lot, but I've definitely spent money Anyway,
moving on, of course, we need to talk about the
access of social media and how that plays into it
as well. The article goes on saying this, because the
online world idolizes celebrities so much, they seem to become
(13:40):
untouchable everyday citizens are often not knowledgeable about the boundaries
they need to set between themselves and an icon. This
can be seen in critiquing a celebrity's body, relationship, art, behavior,
or persona. Many fail to understand the ramifications of these
types of criticisms, so it kind of goes bigger into
that conversation. And so when you're using the fandoms to escape,
(14:03):
which is not a bad thing, it can be healthy.
There's also a chance that dependency can become problematic. So
from a substance media article, they write at times many
people have become absolutely dependent on these artists for happiness
to the point where it affects their sense of morality
or ability to comfort themselves both mentally and physically. People
(14:26):
will also go to links of sending death threats and
docs and people on behalf of these public figures harming
other people on the internet in the long run, And
we've talked about this again in the K pop as
well as we talked about this in the stands. I
believe in general how racism has become rampant in this area,
(14:46):
and like if a black fan comes in, they will
often be attacked. They will often be told they're not
welcome there. They will often be told that the level
of microaggression that's happening is not there. If someone were
to speak up as say that feels like cultural appropriation,
they will be immediately attacked, immediately blacklisted until they're being
too sensitive, which is getting worse by the way, this
(15:09):
whole level of I can do that you're being too sensitive.
It's all about race, like I hate it here. And
of course there are the moments when the celebrities break
your heart. There are current issues with BTS specifically and
the fact that a couple of the members have sponsored
things that seem pro zionis and they're really concerned and
disappointed by that. Possible questions of queer baiting, which any
(15:32):
I know, we've talked about queer bating, and we usually
typically talk about that as like fictional characters or all that,
but is that a thing in live bands? Like there
was a moment where someone came out being by and
people accuse them of queer baiting, and the question was,
but if they're by, how are they're queer baiting? They're queer,
that's not a thing, versus when you do have like
(15:53):
one we talked about Mama Move being a big K
pop group and one specific artists who loves dancing on women,
but it's obviously in a relationship with a man and
she's never come out, not that she has to because
it's not a thing. But at the same time, is
that a form of quibit because she knows she has
a stronger fan base with the women. What are your.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Thoughts, Oh, it's complicated. I do think in those examples specifically,
there are biratures still pretty real, and that's kind of
hard to don't. I don't know. It's not for me
to say, like, just because a woman is dating a
man doesn't mean she's not queer. But there there's definitely
(16:32):
been instances where I have known, not necessarily with bands,
but with actors where they know it's usually men, and
the ones I'm thinking of, they know that their fan
base has a lot of usually women, who are like
slashing them together, and they'll play into it. But usually
kind of like like it's fun, but you can almost
(16:53):
pick up the undercurrent of derision.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Okay, yeah, and that's that's a big level of conversation
of Like, also there was a conversation and like this
person shouldn't represent a queer person or this person shouldn't
do that because they're not out. And then they're like,
why do you have why do you have to out
someone in order for this to be a thing? So
like there's so many levels to that that I have questions,
But you know, that is also heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking
(17:18):
when you see K pop stars who are in an
area where like bl Boy Love we talked about that
and O K drama stuff and stuff like that, and
then they're outright homophobic. That is a bit of a pill.
And I've seen that happen quite often in the K
pop industry. And then again we talked about the racism thing.
(17:47):
It's getting worse. There's a group that was formed recently
with some of the bigger dancer stars and like I
have followed a couple of these dancers in the US.
Bailey Sucks one of her names, and she was dancing
since the age of like five four. I don't know
young and I have watched her in the in she's
been a part of the California studios. She's been amazing,
(18:07):
and now she's a part of a K pop coup
called All Day I believe. However, within that, obviously she's
from the US, from California, so or another members. They
have a guy in there named who calls himself Tarzan
and loves the hell out of some cornrows and all
of the braids that are not and everybody's like, what
are you doing? And apparently just said the N word
(18:28):
for no reason allowed. That was an ad lib, like
it wasn't a part of song, which still, why would
it be? That was odd. Some of the fans don't
seem to have a problem and they think this is okay,
and the fact that this is a newly formed group
as in like the last couple of months, this is concerning.
And the fact that this is being disregarded by not
only the K pop community but also the actual industry
(18:49):
and being okay with it, that's really concerning. So stuff
like that is heartbreaking to see, and that's when you
lose all respect and you lose something that you loved
and it probably invested a lot of money.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. After we did that Harry Potter episode,
I was looking at all my Yeah, I don't know
what to do with it because I don't want to
like I don't want it a round, but I don't
want to waste.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
Yeah. Well, like it's too late, like you, I feel
like I'm already.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
I've heard the money is. So it's like I just
pack it up in a box and put it away.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Maybe they're talking about a group. Babe, one of my
favorite UH Korean pop stars who was actually in acting
now she's adorable as hell. Uh talked about the fact
that her light sticks or sixty dollars piece of plastic
with a little bit of a light bulb and there
was sixty dollars.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Can you imagine spending that anyway? It's an investment. But again,
so with all of that, yes, and there's also, as
we mentioned before, celebrities who are actual predators and seemingly untouchable. Actually,
several of the squid games who have gotten huge, including
one of the dudes who was in K Pop Demon Hunter,
which I realized later was accused of sexual assault or
(20:02):
sexual harassment at the very least. So there's a lot
of things that you're like, that's really that's appointing. How
do I love something when there's so many like that's
a portion to this that I hate. Ah, But I
would be remiss if we did not jump into the
fact that there are in our episodes on fangirls, there
(20:22):
is also a conversation where this is also kind of
a steeped and misogyny when we talk about the obsession
and I'm putting that in quotes and about being healthy. Now,
I think there is a middle ground to everything. I
am all about balance. I am a libra to the core,
so I think there has to be a healthy balance.
But with that, yes, there is also their misogynistic take
(20:45):
on fangirls, and we cannot ignore that either. This is
from a twenty twenty three article written by Alisha Lansam,
and she says this, this pattern of being penalized for
being a girl with emotions is something I find uncomfortably familiar.
At the height of the twenty tens, my dedication to
Justin Bieber, one of the best selling artists in music history,
was regularly joked about at school. My commitment to being
(21:09):
a believer was seen as delusional at worst, and uncool
at best. Even the media called us out for our
beaber fever, with articles at the time stating that research
into the made up condition showed it to be more
infectious than measles. The symptoms, they said included poor life choices,
uncontrollable crying, and screaming symptoms of illness. Like Benny, I
(21:32):
brushed off the label as funny, but it was hard
not to internalize the idea of being perceived as ridiculous
on the world stage. While I was laughed at for
knowing my face's birthday and the words to all his songs,
my guy friends could discuss every injury their favorite football
player had ever had and be thought of as well informed.
As I ripped posters of Bieber out of magazines, it
(21:53):
was common to see neighboring articles using words like mad, stalker,
and scary. The sentiment was loud and clear. When girls
know a lot about something they love, they're crazy. When
boys do, they're passionate. Which, yeah, we've talked about that previously.
We've talked about that before. That just because it's a
girl liking something does not diminish the fact that they
are important, that something has happened, and that they are,
(22:16):
these girls are powerful, they are her power machines, or
these fans are and a little bit more from a
different article they write this. Professor Sarah bannitt Weiser, co
author of Believability, Sexual Violence, Media, and the Politics of Doubt,
believes this characterization of fangirls as potentially fanatical is unfairly
connected to the scritiny of women in general. As far
(22:36):
as I know, most of the cases of fans stalking
and being violent against celebrities are men, she tells Refinary
twenty nine. General findings show that stalkers are more often
SISCE men than women. The idea that women fans are
unstable is a real issue, as it connects to women
being seen as irrational. She explains, So, even though I
did start off with a very example of the first
(22:59):
woman again and in the perception of like she might
be a little too much at this point attacking other fans,
we know that it's not typically women who are causing harm.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yes, yes, and you know, interestingly, you can go see
the feminist movie Friday we did on Turning Red where
we talked about this. But there's also a lot more
to be said about women not having safe spaces to
express sexuality in our society. And so when you get
(23:31):
in a lot of cases anyway, when you have this
crush on a celebrity and you're screaming and you know
their birthday and all of that, a lot of times
it's because you don't feel safe doing that with real
person in your life, or you might be judged for it,
or Shane Fort in a clearly you're still being judged
in Shane Fort can't win. But people will call you out.
(23:56):
You're real, You're irl.
Speaker 1 (23:59):
Colleagues, we'll be like and yeah, and again this kind
of goes back to the happy hour that I talked
about and like enjoying things like that I wish I
could have done as a child, but I couldn't because
I couldn't be a child. And now growing up, now
finding a moment be like I actually really enjoyed this,
and I want to love it and I want to
dedicate to it. Like there's this difference of like trying
to find the balance once again. But yeah, is ever
(24:24):
growing too, the fandoms are with social media, I really
connected all over the world.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Yeah, that's what I was going to say, because I
also have an episode on Phantom coming up, it's our
big Fantom month. But I really think that the Internet
and social media has changed and continues to change this
conversation because even though that existed when I was young,
when Justin Bieber and the Believers were around, it's just
(24:54):
gotten more and more. And I really think that access
and going back to a recent conversation we had about
you know, it's not everyone who is like this, but
some people online take up so much space that they
make you feel like, is everyone like this? Plenty of
(25:14):
people they can be very fanish about something but also
not harrassed people, right, but people still, I mean, that's
a real problem. And yeah, we'll talk about it a
little bit more in my coming up one. But that
whole idea of if people are online you can just
say anything right now, there's still still people exactly no need,
(25:38):
no need, no need. Well, gosh, we've got so many,
so many avenues we could go down with that. But
in the meantime, listeners, if you have any thoughts about
this or anything you would like for us to explore
around this, please let us know. You can emails at Hello,
at stuff onever told you dot com. You can find
us some pou skuyt mop Stuff podcast or on Instagram
(26:00):
and TikTok at stuff When Never Told You for us
on YouTube and we have a book you can get
where you get your books. Thanks as always start a
super produced Christine, are excited to producer my Inner contributor Joey,
Thank you and thanks to you for listening stuff will
Never Told You to production of My Heart Radio. For
more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check out
the heart Radio app Apple Podcasts wherever you listen to
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