September 28, 2020 • 23 mins
Anney and Samantha revisit forgiveness and what it can look like for women.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told your protection. I heart radio. So today
we're doing kind of a revisit on two topics, forgiveness
(00:25):
and um the death of my father, which we did
an episode on, so I did want to This was
before we did Big Questions those episodes. So now my
question to you is, how are you with forgiveness? Oh
that is a really that's a big question, and question
obvious as that question is, I still didn't expect it.
(00:45):
So this is how good I am at this question thing.
I could throw in some real, real curveball, So that's
fair you do, I think well as where I was,
I'm all over the place and just ask you about
random nonsensical things. But yeah, forgiveness, I think I'm actually
pretty good at forgiving. I'm one of those who it
takes a lot to get angry, and it takes a
(01:08):
lot for me to be done with you. And typically
when I'm done with you is when I let go
of everything. And so therefore it's neither either or but
trusting you as a whole other thing. So I feel like,
you know, that's of course a big caveat and that's
a big conversation of what is forgiveness really? Uh, the
whole forgive and forget is I don't think it realistic
(01:29):
and it shouldn't be an expectation, but forget and move on.
I think that's that's more of my tone. So it's
kind of that. But I don't forget things. I'm really
petty like that. I will say that, and so that
will always linger in the back of my head. So
(01:50):
I will put myself. If it was the one through
tin scale, I'm out of five. Oh, I like this
coming up with some metrics. I'm like this. It's the
best way I can describe because I want to say
I'm better than I think. But then when I honestly
talk about whole forgetting and pet moving past, I can
move past it. But it's always going to be a
haunt for me, right, A haunt? Yes, that's a good
(02:14):
way to describe it. Um. I'm similar in that it
takes a lot for me to reach the point where
I am just done. Um. And when I think of
this is something that has been on my mind for
a long long time because in our society we do
(02:35):
pressure people, especially women to forgive and Um, since we've
both gone through trauma like I. I just was so
torn by it and like, what if I can't forgive?
And I felt like that meant something that's wrong with me.
I was being petty And there are some people I
want to forgive. I want to, but my body won't.
(02:59):
It's not out there yet and that's okay. And um,
so we're going to talk today about my forgiveness with
my dad, and I think this is the biggest I've
never forgiven someone on this level before that I don't
have anything else to compare it to. But to reiterate
before we start talking about that, this forgiveness is a
(03:21):
very personal thing and it's something you don't owe anybody,
and it doesn't make you a better person. There is
that petty line of holding stuff against people, but in general,
it's up to you and it is about the person
who has been wrong. And when we did that episode,
that was so enlightening and kind of just like lifting
(03:43):
the load off of me because we do, or at
least in my case, I do think of it as
a gift you're giving someone else, but instead it's really
has very little to do with them and all to
do with what you want and what is right for you,
and and just to reiterate, I know we talked about
the episode, but a lot of that expectation and a
(04:04):
lot of that assumption that women should automatically be forgiving, nurturing,
and Karen and especially a placed no women of color,
especially black women in general, being told you need to
get past it, you need to be the bigger person,
Um had the bigger heart. It is complete nonsense and
so therefore just weaponized against women in general. So in general,
(04:26):
when we talk about not in general, um, overall, and
we talk about this, it is for your own self
and your own therapeutic level and who you are as
an individual. And like she said, you don't owe that
to anyone, and no one is deserving of that in general. Yeah. Yeah,
it's massively. It's changed so much of how I think
(04:46):
about things. And it was learning that was a gift, um.
But I still catch myself falling into those traps sometimes
because that's just how it's frames. It's hard to unlearn things,
it really is. And you and I have had really
deep conversations lately and in general, uh, and great conversations
about the anniversary of her dad's death, which just recently happened. Um,
(05:09):
And I know you've processed a lot this year, and
I'm really glad we're revisiting that because unfolding that for
other people to know does help and it's therapeutic for
them as well. But yeah, just to reiterate this, this
is very personal, and this is very open, and for
those who are not in that mindset, that's fine. But
also please understand and he's being very open. Were when
(05:32):
we talk about these things with y'all, it's because we
want you to be a part of our lives and
this is something so personal that it's beneficial for everyone. UM.
And then also just understand it takes a lot to
be as open as she's going to be and as
we are, hopefully you more so than me. I think
about stuff like this, yeah, and I suppose before I
(05:56):
get into it, UM, trigger warning. I guess if you
if you are struggling with UM, grief our forgiveness, maybe
don't listen to this one, or just be mindful if
you start feeling yourself. I don't think it's going to
get that intense, but you know, UM, you never can't.
That is one thing I have learned in this year,
as you can never ever tell what is going to
(06:16):
set you off, and some things you think should don't,
some things you are so shocked by. Will Um. Yeah,
So it's been a year over a year since my
dad's death. UM. It's actually his birthday this Saturday, or
would have been. UM, and I have forgiven him. I
didn't go into too much detail about why our relationship
(06:40):
went so bad, but it did. It was really, really bad,
and I I was like reveling and telling my friends
when he's dead, I'm going to dance on his grave.
I'm never going to forgive him. UM. And I never
thought I would, Like if you had asked me a
year ago, I never would have thought it. UM. I
didn't want to, I really do you really fiercely didn't
(07:01):
want to. And I've been thinking about that, and I
think it's because I was still thinking of it as
a gift do you give someone else. I didn't want
to give him that gift or make him think like
I was fine with what he did, because I'm not
fine with what he did and I'm still really angry
and I'm still really hurt. But I was still thinking
about it in terms of him and not in terms
of me. And now the biggest thing I feel is sorry.
(07:26):
I feel so sorry for him, and I don't know.
I don't know what facing death every day does to
a person every day for years. I don't know what
chronic pain does. I don't know what it's like to
have your entire body fail on you. UM And we
really didn't know each other, and that's been That's been
painful too, is like learning because when he first died,
(07:51):
people kept saying, Oh, he'd be so proud of you,
and my knee jerk thought was he didn't know me
at all. And now I realized I didn't really know
him at all either. UM. And we didn't have like
meaningful conversations, we didn't share emotions, so that's why I
(08:15):
didn't really know what he was going through. And now
I do feel a lot of empathy for that. UM
And he he did have a rough childhood, and he
was raised by a lot of people, and he had
a lot of death early on in his life. And UM,
he had these abandonment issues that he passed on to me,
and I've seen those in my own relationships. And that's
(08:39):
hard too, because I'm learning all these things about him.
It feels so disorienting, like learning about a different person,
and maybe I could have understood my own self better
if I had known him, but I don't know. I
was seeing him as a real person, as a whole
person with these flaws, and he did do a lot
(08:59):
of image um and I'm not excusing that, but it's
just helped me be more empathetic and it's not something
I sought out to do, honestly, I really didn't um.
And it does make me sad that I can't let
him know that I forgive him now. And that's the
(09:20):
thing that people always tell these tells you, and it's
so frustrating because people always say you better say what
do you want to say now? Because when they die,
you won't have the chance and you over credit and
I remember being like bah, and it's true and it's
so annoying. But I do think I I couldn't have
(09:41):
forgiven him when he was alive. I didn't want to,
and I honestly think I couldn't have. And there's something
kind of relieving about that of just accepting that that's
the space I was in and it sucks, but I
couldn't have really done anything about it because he hadn't
(10:02):
done anything to show me that he was changing, or
that he at least recognized the pain he had caused. Um. Well,
I was gonna say, do you think being able to
process his death has been a big help in being
able to for him forgive him? That If it wasn't
for his death, you wouldn't been able to go down
this line to actually forget him. So it was inevitable
(10:26):
that it wasn't going to happen until he was gone.
I think yes, or at least like I think, if
he was still alive and he had changed, I still
wouldn't have forgiven him by this point. I think it
would have taken many, many years if it happened at all. Um,
(10:49):
And I guess there is some kind of human nature
in there of like you always want what you can't have.
Now I can't like share Sharah that I've forgiven him,
and I don't like I do feel so much better
since I have, I feel lighter. Um. I can't pinpoint
when it happened. Again, I really didn't I think it
(11:09):
would ever happen, and I wasn't trying to. I just
started feeling so sad for him and so sorry for him,
and thinking about how like amaze cated he was in
the bed and like knowing it was only a matter
of time, and how scary that must have been. And
to have like his entire family, he alienated his entire
family and there was no time to fix it. Um,
(11:32):
and I talked to my mom and she's in the
same space. I think that you and I talked about
that a little bit again, how you were saying that
one of the big factors of you not being able
to forgive him and what's changed now is because you
learned things about his past that he could never tell
you before that you're describing it on your own. A b.
He wasn't changing, like his behavior continued in that toxic behavior,
(11:56):
whether it was out of fear, whether it was out
of selfishness, whichever, whether it was maybe even out of pain,
as you would say. But when you see a behavior
that's not changed, you can't change it for him or
for them in general. So therefore, of course, as much
as you would like to be able to do so,
because you are a giving person and a loving individual,
(12:19):
you want to but that again is not on you, unfortunately.
But yes, that doesn't change the fact you still feel
that guilt for something that you weren't able to do.
Whether it's because of him or because of you. Yeah,
And I can hold on to anger and her like
(12:40):
those are the easy one. I know. It takes. It
takes so much for me to get to angry, which
I actually think is a problem. Um, But when I
get it, it's like, oh I am angry to play Katan.
She got mad at me, all got real mad at me.
I was kind of like, oh, I was so tired
(13:01):
of it. This is how our friendship. That sounds right.
We're both competitive. Um. One thing I've noticed that's kind
of and grief is the same way is people have
reacted to it differently, and I think this is also
human nature. But I would caution you anybody listening, like,
(13:23):
don't people have told me you shouldn't have, like he
didn't deserve to be forgiven, you shouldn't have, And then
other people have said, well, what does it matter now?
But I don't know, like treating it like a weakness
that I did, which is so interesting because a lot
of our cultural discourse is like, no, it's a strength.
(13:45):
But I've gotten a lot of people who have treated
it like I've been weak for like a pushover or
something um, which is yeah, and I understand. I understand that. Yeah, yeah,
I understand, like the knee jerk. Look at all these
things he did within any relationship, Um, how could you
forgive him? But I would just caution to note, Well,
(14:09):
that's kind of like when we had a conversation about
the Mexic violence and why women forgive or why women
go back. There's a lot of things that we would
think we would do on the outside. There's a really
easy to spectate and have a judgemental conversation about the
dues or dogs or what if. But you really can
and that's unfair. You don't matter outside sspect that I
(14:32):
just don't matter, and that our opinions should be at
least and none unless really asked for. Yeah, yeah, um,
that has been one of the most interesting, kind of
shocking things I've experienced. Uh and then like questioning, well,
don't you think it should have taken longer? Don't you
think it should have taken shorter? Everybody does this different ways, um,
saying with grief, all right, And it's something else I've noticed,
(14:57):
and I'm not sure if this is a good thing
or a bad thing, but I've started translating that like
this empathy and forgiveness to other people in my life
that I've struggled to forgive. I've seen it with my brother.
Um I actually ran into one of my abusers lately,
and God help me, did I think maybe I should
(15:20):
forgive him? And then I was like, why do you
think that? Um? So it did. It left a huge
lasting impact that I'm still kind of working through of
like what is just kind of fall out of what
I'm dealing with right now and what's going to actually
stick around? I mean, I know, again not to brag
(15:42):
about the fact that I'm really friends with any ha
ha ha. We did talk a lot about trauma and
forgiveness and what that looks like, and you contemplating you know,
I regret not forgiving my dad when he was alive.
Not regret, but I wish I could be able to
tell my dad that I forgave him, and talking about
what that means us to the people in your life
today who um as traumatized. You're part of that trauma.
(16:06):
And it was an interesting conversation you and I had
about how trauma affects all relationships and though there was
a bigger part to play in this relationship, specific specifically
to you. But the fact is that there's this layered
story that not everyone knows. Don't you wish it was
a movie that just unfolded, Not that you would want
(16:28):
to watch a movie about it, but just kind of
being able to see the inside of what has happened
because it does. Like you said, knowing people's past, knowing
people's hurts, knowing people's own issues does help you have
more empathy for those people. But at the same time,
that's not fair to say that that should affect you
in any way, as in, you have to forgive them
because you know this, come on, give them a sense
(16:50):
that's not necessarily fair either. Um, and it is it,
and we've talked about it before, but just hold deeper
level of trauma and then going through the trauma to
find forgiveness and what that looks like, and that there's
no time frame, there's no limit honestly, can be after
their death and it's still purposeful and it is still effective,
(17:12):
and for giving someone after the death is okay, And
and um, you know, it is what you've got, but
it's not the worst thing that could have happened, if
that makes sense. And and then you're talking about running
into your abuser. I know I've had that on my own,
having to run into abusers or um. And actually we
had a remember we had our listener who talked about
(17:34):
that as well, and and trying to deal with that
and how to how to really go about that and
just trying to rush yourself into forgiveness when it may
never happen. It's also traumatizing too and really unfair to
the individual. So trying to let go of that it's
really hard, especially again for women, especially for victims especially,
(17:54):
you know, for those survivors, it is the hardest bit.
And to push someone to do that as complete lack
of humanity. Yeah, yeah, And I do want to say, um,
I've been talking through a lot of this in therapy
about how this person that abused me and now I
feel sorry for them, and now I feel like all
(18:15):
these things, and my therapist is always like, yeah, but
you don't owe them any of that, and you should
have compassion for yourself, Like it wasn't your job to
have compassion for them. So just keeping that in mind too,
is like you're listening to me work through this, you
need to keep those things in mind. Um, And it
(18:38):
is complicated and it does work differently for different people,
and there's not necessarily a better or worse way as
long as you're looking out for your health and your
mental health and all of that. Quick plug therapy, yes, therapy, Yes. Yes,
it's been shocking to me how many things I'm like, Well,
(18:58):
certainly I've worked through that. No. And it is also
the benefit of having a good therapist and a good
sounding yes. Yes, and and for those who can't get
their understandable, but those who have doubts about it are
scared to do it. These are the things that we're
talking about. Why it's important because it's not something that
you know. Yes, you're going to have to uncover a
(19:20):
lot about yourself, but it's already there and deep seated
and affecting you more than you know. Mm hmmm yes, Um,
so that's that's sort of where I am. Um. I
now have a tradition, I guess where I take a
shot of vodka and watch Star Wars on important UH
(19:44):
days to my dad, which would be his the anniversary
of his death and his birthday. Samantha helped me celebrate
one of these instances. Um. Star Wars is a very
interesting father's tale. Uh so its again. When you and
I had one of these conversations, we had this whole
like dissecting of oh, this makes more sense for you
than it does for me, because our traumas are very different.
(20:06):
And I'm like, oh, now I see why you like
this so much and why you need this so much,
because I'm like, ah, stay away from that completely. Thank you. Uh. Yeah,
it's really interesting to see how you work things out,
and it's okay as long as it's not you know,
putting yourself in danger. It's okay, don't work through these things.
And I will say any from last year to this year,
(20:27):
I'm really proud of the progress you've made. And I know,
therapy with something really really scary for you, and the
fact that you're still a part of it, you're still
in it and you're still working things out, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful. And I love seeing the relationship you have
with your mom and how your support systems to each other,
and it is a beautiful, beautiful relationship. Yeah, um, thank you.
(20:49):
And you know, I've noticed for short the benefit of
of it for me and especially mindfulness of just kind
of realizing like, oh my gosh, this whole time it's
really been a trust issue or like, you know, whatever
it is. Um. I also just want to strow in
there the Last of US two okay, which I've played
(21:10):
like four times now in various manners. What it came
out right when I was going through all of this,
and the ultimate story of that is sort of uh,
father and daughter figure and the daughter figure not being
able to forgive the father figure once she arrives at
that point, because well, you had to play to find out. UM.
(21:32):
But I think I've been a part of this as well,
and I heard a lot of joel, my heart, my heart,
my heart hurts, and I'm like, what is happening? But
I think that's one of the reasons it was so
impactful for me. And clearly this is a story that
(21:53):
does resonate with people, because right after my dad died,
so many people recommended, um, thanks for me to watch
that they thought would cheer me up. And I swear
to god, it was almost hilarious how many of them
had a missing father figure and usually a daughter who
couldn't forgive them. And then my friends felt so bad
and they're like, well, I didn't even think about it.
I'm like, A don't worry. It's fine, but clearly you
watched Avengers or the Last Avengers one and I was
(22:15):
like what what. I'm like, what are you doing to yourself?
It's literally a father daughter relationship and that that is traumatizing.
What was wrong with you that you can't do it?
But you're like, yeah, I kind of forgot. Yeah I did,
and then like how to train your dragon, which has
that too? I did the whole thing. Oh my gosh. Um,
(22:36):
you know you work through it in different with true
you like to be in the middle of it. I
like to avoid it. I like to feel a field.
So yeah, thanks for letting me share this with with everybody. UM,
As always, we would love to hear from any listeners.
You can email us. Our email is Stuff Media Mom
Stuff at iHeart mea dot com. You can find us
(22:57):
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Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told your protection. I heart radio. So today
we're doing kind of a revisit on two topics, forgiveness
(00:25):
and um the death of my father, which we did
an episode on, so I did want to This was
before we did Big Questions those episodes. So now my
question to you is, how are you with forgiveness? Oh
that is a really that's a big question, and question
obvious as that question is, I still didn't expect it.
(00:45):
So this is how good I am at this question thing.
I could throw in some real, real curveball, So that's
fair you do, I think well as where I was,
I'm all over the place and just ask you about
random nonsensical things. But yeah, forgiveness, I think I'm actually
pretty good at forgiving. I'm one of those who it
takes a lot to get angry, and it takes a
(01:08):
lot for me to be done with you. And typically
when I'm done with you is when I let go
of everything. And so therefore it's neither either or but
trusting you as a whole other thing. So I feel like,
you know, that's of course a big caveat and that's
a big conversation of what is forgiveness really? Uh, the
whole forgive and forget is I don't think it realistic
(01:29):
and it shouldn't be an expectation, but forget and move on.
I think that's that's more of my tone. So it's
kind of that. But I don't forget things. I'm really
petty like that. I will say that, and so that
will always linger in the back of my head. So
(01:50):
I will put myself. If it was the one through
tin scale, I'm out of five. Oh, I like this
coming up with some metrics. I'm like this. It's the
best way I can describe because I want to say
I'm better than I think. But then when I honestly
talk about whole forgetting and pet moving past, I can
move past it. But it's always going to be a
haunt for me, right, A haunt? Yes, that's a good
(02:14):
way to describe it. Um. I'm similar in that it
takes a lot for me to reach the point where
I am just done. Um. And when I think of
this is something that has been on my mind for
a long long time because in our society we do
(02:35):
pressure people, especially women to forgive and Um, since we've
both gone through trauma like I. I just was so
torn by it and like, what if I can't forgive?
And I felt like that meant something that's wrong with me.
I was being petty And there are some people I
want to forgive. I want to, but my body won't.
(02:59):
It's not out there yet and that's okay. And um,
so we're going to talk today about my forgiveness with
my dad, and I think this is the biggest I've
never forgiven someone on this level before that I don't
have anything else to compare it to. But to reiterate
before we start talking about that, this forgiveness is a
(03:21):
very personal thing and it's something you don't owe anybody,
and it doesn't make you a better person. There is
that petty line of holding stuff against people, but in general,
it's up to you and it is about the person
who has been wrong. And when we did that episode,
that was so enlightening and kind of just like lifting
(03:43):
the load off of me because we do, or at
least in my case, I do think of it as
a gift you're giving someone else, but instead it's really
has very little to do with them and all to
do with what you want and what is right for you,
and and just to reiterate, I know we talked about
the episode, but a lot of that expectation and a
(04:04):
lot of that assumption that women should automatically be forgiving, nurturing,
and Karen and especially a placed no women of color,
especially black women in general, being told you need to
get past it, you need to be the bigger person,
Um had the bigger heart. It is complete nonsense and
so therefore just weaponized against women in general. So in general,
(04:26):
when we talk about not in general, um, overall, and
we talk about this, it is for your own self
and your own therapeutic level and who you are as
an individual. And like she said, you don't owe that
to anyone, and no one is deserving of that in general. Yeah. Yeah,
it's massively. It's changed so much of how I think
(04:46):
about things. And it was learning that was a gift, um.
But I still catch myself falling into those traps sometimes
because that's just how it's frames. It's hard to unlearn things,
it really is. And you and I have had really
deep conversations lately and in general, uh, and great conversations
about the anniversary of her dad's death, which just recently happened. Um,
(05:09):
And I know you've processed a lot this year, and
I'm really glad we're revisiting that because unfolding that for
other people to know does help and it's therapeutic for
them as well. But yeah, just to reiterate this, this
is very personal, and this is very open, and for
those who are not in that mindset, that's fine. But
also please understand and he's being very open. Were when
(05:32):
we talk about these things with y'all, it's because we
want you to be a part of our lives and
this is something so personal that it's beneficial for everyone. UM.
And then also just understand it takes a lot to
be as open as she's going to be and as
we are, hopefully you more so than me. I think
about stuff like this, yeah, and I suppose before I
(05:56):
get into it, UM, trigger warning. I guess if you
if you are struggling with UM, grief our forgiveness, maybe
don't listen to this one, or just be mindful if
you start feeling yourself. I don't think it's going to
get that intense, but you know, UM, you never can't.
That is one thing I have learned in this year,
as you can never ever tell what is going to
(06:16):
set you off, and some things you think should don't,
some things you are so shocked by. Will Um. Yeah,
So it's been a year over a year since my
dad's death. UM. It's actually his birthday this Saturday, or
would have been. UM, and I have forgiven him. I
didn't go into too much detail about why our relationship
(06:40):
went so bad, but it did. It was really, really bad,
and I I was like reveling and telling my friends
when he's dead, I'm going to dance on his grave.
I'm never going to forgive him. UM. And I never
thought I would, Like if you had asked me a
year ago, I never would have thought it. UM. I
didn't want to, I really do you really fiercely didn't
(07:01):
want to. And I've been thinking about that, and I
think it's because I was still thinking of it as
a gift do you give someone else. I didn't want
to give him that gift or make him think like
I was fine with what he did, because I'm not
fine with what he did and I'm still really angry
and I'm still really hurt. But I was still thinking
about it in terms of him and not in terms
of me. And now the biggest thing I feel is sorry.
(07:26):
I feel so sorry for him, and I don't know.
I don't know what facing death every day does to
a person every day for years. I don't know what
chronic pain does. I don't know what it's like to
have your entire body fail on you. UM And we
really didn't know each other, and that's been That's been
painful too, is like learning because when he first died,
(07:51):
people kept saying, Oh, he'd be so proud of you,
and my knee jerk thought was he didn't know me
at all. And now I realized I didn't really know
him at all either. UM. And we didn't have like
meaningful conversations, we didn't share emotions, so that's why I
(08:15):
didn't really know what he was going through. And now
I do feel a lot of empathy for that. UM
And he he did have a rough childhood, and he
was raised by a lot of people, and he had
a lot of death early on in his life. And UM,
he had these abandonment issues that he passed on to me,
and I've seen those in my own relationships. And that's
(08:39):
hard too, because I'm learning all these things about him.
It feels so disorienting, like learning about a different person,
and maybe I could have understood my own self better
if I had known him, but I don't know. I
was seeing him as a real person, as a whole
person with these flaws, and he did do a lot
(08:59):
of image um and I'm not excusing that, but it's
just helped me be more empathetic and it's not something
I sought out to do, honestly, I really didn't um.
And it does make me sad that I can't let
him know that I forgive him now. And that's the
(09:20):
thing that people always tell these tells you, and it's
so frustrating because people always say you better say what
do you want to say now? Because when they die,
you won't have the chance and you over credit and
I remember being like bah, and it's true and it's
so annoying. But I do think I I couldn't have
(09:41):
forgiven him when he was alive. I didn't want to,
and I honestly think I couldn't have. And there's something
kind of relieving about that of just accepting that that's
the space I was in and it sucks, but I
couldn't have really done anything about it because he hadn't
(10:02):
done anything to show me that he was changing, or
that he at least recognized the pain he had caused. Um. Well,
I was gonna say, do you think being able to
process his death has been a big help in being
able to for him forgive him? That If it wasn't
for his death, you wouldn't been able to go down
this line to actually forget him. So it was inevitable
(10:26):
that it wasn't going to happen until he was gone.
I think yes, or at least like I think, if
he was still alive and he had changed, I still
wouldn't have forgiven him by this point. I think it
would have taken many, many years if it happened at all. Um,
(10:49):
And I guess there is some kind of human nature
in there of like you always want what you can't have.
Now I can't like share Sharah that I've forgiven him,
and I don't like I do feel so much better
since I have, I feel lighter. Um. I can't pinpoint
when it happened. Again, I really didn't I think it
(11:09):
would ever happen, and I wasn't trying to. I just
started feeling so sad for him and so sorry for him,
and thinking about how like amaze cated he was in
the bed and like knowing it was only a matter
of time, and how scary that must have been. And
to have like his entire family, he alienated his entire
family and there was no time to fix it. Um,
(11:32):
and I talked to my mom and she's in the
same space. I think that you and I talked about
that a little bit again, how you were saying that
one of the big factors of you not being able
to forgive him and what's changed now is because you
learned things about his past that he could never tell
you before that you're describing it on your own. A b.
He wasn't changing, like his behavior continued in that toxic behavior,
(11:56):
whether it was out of fear, whether it was out
of selfishness, whichever, whether it was maybe even out of pain,
as you would say. But when you see a behavior
that's not changed, you can't change it for him or
for them in general. So therefore, of course, as much
as you would like to be able to do so,
because you are a giving person and a loving individual,
(12:19):
you want to but that again is not on you, unfortunately.
But yes, that doesn't change the fact you still feel
that guilt for something that you weren't able to do.
Whether it's because of him or because of you. Yeah,
And I can hold on to anger and her like
(12:40):
those are the easy one. I know. It takes. It
takes so much for me to get to angry, which
I actually think is a problem. Um, But when I
get it, it's like, oh I am angry to play Katan.
She got mad at me, all got real mad at me.
I was kind of like, oh, I was so tired
(13:01):
of it. This is how our friendship. That sounds right.
We're both competitive. Um. One thing I've noticed that's kind
of and grief is the same way is people have
reacted to it differently, and I think this is also
human nature. But I would caution you anybody listening, like,
(13:23):
don't people have told me you shouldn't have, like he
didn't deserve to be forgiven, you shouldn't have, And then
other people have said, well, what does it matter now?
But I don't know, like treating it like a weakness
that I did, which is so interesting because a lot
of our cultural discourse is like, no, it's a strength.
(13:45):
But I've gotten a lot of people who have treated
it like I've been weak for like a pushover or
something um, which is yeah, and I understand. I understand that. Yeah, yeah,
I understand, like the knee jerk. Look at all these
things he did within any relationship, Um, how could you
forgive him? But I would just caution to note, Well,
(14:09):
that's kind of like when we had a conversation about
the Mexic violence and why women forgive or why women
go back. There's a lot of things that we would
think we would do on the outside. There's a really
easy to spectate and have a judgemental conversation about the
dues or dogs or what if. But you really can
and that's unfair. You don't matter outside sspect that I
(14:32):
just don't matter, and that our opinions should be at
least and none unless really asked for. Yeah, yeah, um,
that has been one of the most interesting, kind of
shocking things I've experienced. Uh and then like questioning, well,
don't you think it should have taken longer? Don't you
think it should have taken shorter? Everybody does this different ways, um,
saying with grief, all right, And it's something else I've noticed,
(14:57):
and I'm not sure if this is a good thing
or a bad thing, but I've started translating that like
this empathy and forgiveness to other people in my life
that I've struggled to forgive. I've seen it with my brother.
Um I actually ran into one of my abusers lately,
and God help me, did I think maybe I should
(15:20):
forgive him? And then I was like, why do you
think that? Um? So it did. It left a huge
lasting impact that I'm still kind of working through of
like what is just kind of fall out of what
I'm dealing with right now and what's going to actually
stick around? I mean, I know, again not to brag
(15:42):
about the fact that I'm really friends with any ha
ha ha. We did talk a lot about trauma and
forgiveness and what that looks like, and you contemplating you know,
I regret not forgiving my dad when he was alive.
Not regret, but I wish I could be able to
tell my dad that I forgave him, and talking about
what that means us to the people in your life
today who um as traumatized. You're part of that trauma.
(16:06):
And it was an interesting conversation you and I had
about how trauma affects all relationships and though there was
a bigger part to play in this relationship, specific specifically
to you. But the fact is that there's this layered
story that not everyone knows. Don't you wish it was
a movie that just unfolded, Not that you would want
(16:28):
to watch a movie about it, but just kind of
being able to see the inside of what has happened
because it does. Like you said, knowing people's past, knowing
people's hurts, knowing people's own issues does help you have
more empathy for those people. But at the same time,
that's not fair to say that that should affect you
in any way, as in, you have to forgive them
because you know this, come on, give them a sense
(16:50):
that's not necessarily fair either. Um, and it is it,
and we've talked about it before, but just hold deeper
level of trauma and then going through the trauma to
find forgiveness and what that looks like, and that there's
no time frame, there's no limit honestly, can be after
their death and it's still purposeful and it is still effective,
(17:12):
and for giving someone after the death is okay, And
and um, you know, it is what you've got, but
it's not the worst thing that could have happened, if
that makes sense. And and then you're talking about running
into your abuser. I know I've had that on my own,
having to run into abusers or um. And actually we
had a remember we had our listener who talked about
(17:34):
that as well, and and trying to deal with that
and how to how to really go about that and
just trying to rush yourself into forgiveness when it may
never happen. It's also traumatizing too and really unfair to
the individual. So trying to let go of that it's
really hard, especially again for women, especially for victims especially,
(17:54):
you know, for those survivors, it is the hardest bit.
And to push someone to do that as complete lack
of humanity. Yeah, yeah, And I do want to say, um,
I've been talking through a lot of this in therapy
about how this person that abused me and now I
feel sorry for them, and now I feel like all
(18:15):
these things, and my therapist is always like, yeah, but
you don't owe them any of that, and you should
have compassion for yourself, Like it wasn't your job to
have compassion for them. So just keeping that in mind too,
is like you're listening to me work through this, you
need to keep those things in mind. Um, And it
(18:38):
is complicated and it does work differently for different people,
and there's not necessarily a better or worse way as
long as you're looking out for your health and your
mental health and all of that. Quick plug therapy, yes, therapy, Yes. Yes,
it's been shocking to me how many things I'm like, Well,
(18:58):
certainly I've worked through that. No. And it is also
the benefit of having a good therapist and a good
sounding yes. Yes, and and for those who can't get
their understandable, but those who have doubts about it are
scared to do it. These are the things that we're
talking about. Why it's important because it's not something that
you know. Yes, you're going to have to uncover a
(19:20):
lot about yourself, but it's already there and deep seated
and affecting you more than you know. Mm hmmm yes, Um,
so that's that's sort of where I am. Um. I
now have a tradition, I guess where I take a
shot of vodka and watch Star Wars on important UH
(19:44):
days to my dad, which would be his the anniversary
of his death and his birthday. Samantha helped me celebrate
one of these instances. Um. Star Wars is a very
interesting father's tale. Uh so its again. When you and
I had one of these conversations, we had this whole
like dissecting of oh, this makes more sense for you
than it does for me, because our traumas are very different.
(20:06):
And I'm like, oh, now I see why you like
this so much and why you need this so much,
because I'm like, ah, stay away from that completely. Thank you. Uh. Yeah,
it's really interesting to see how you work things out,
and it's okay as long as it's not you know,
putting yourself in danger. It's okay, don't work through these things.
And I will say any from last year to this year,
(20:27):
I'm really proud of the progress you've made. And I know,
therapy with something really really scary for you, and the
fact that you're still a part of it, you're still
in it and you're still working things out, it's beautiful.
It's beautiful. And I love seeing the relationship you have
with your mom and how your support systems to each other,
and it is a beautiful, beautiful relationship. Yeah, um, thank you.
(20:49):
And you know, I've noticed for short the benefit of
of it for me and especially mindfulness of just kind
of realizing like, oh my gosh, this whole time it's
really been a trust issue or like, you know, whatever
it is. Um. I also just want to strow in
there the Last of US two okay, which I've played
(21:10):
like four times now in various manners. What it came
out right when I was going through all of this,
and the ultimate story of that is sort of uh,
father and daughter figure and the daughter figure not being
able to forgive the father figure once she arrives at
that point, because well, you had to play to find out. UM.
(21:32):
But I think I've been a part of this as well,
and I heard a lot of joel, my heart, my heart,
my heart hurts, and I'm like, what is happening? But
I think that's one of the reasons it was so
impactful for me. And clearly this is a story that
(21:53):
does resonate with people, because right after my dad died,
so many people recommended, um, thanks for me to watch
that they thought would cheer me up. And I swear
to god, it was almost hilarious how many of them
had a missing father figure and usually a daughter who
couldn't forgive them. And then my friends felt so bad
and they're like, well, I didn't even think about it.
I'm like, A don't worry. It's fine, but clearly you
watched Avengers or the Last Avengers one and I was
(22:15):
like what what. I'm like, what are you doing to yourself?
It's literally a father daughter relationship and that that is traumatizing.
What was wrong with you that you can't do it?
But you're like, yeah, I kind of forgot. Yeah I did,
and then like how to train your dragon, which has
that too? I did the whole thing. Oh my gosh. Um,
(22:36):
you know you work through it in different with true
you like to be in the middle of it. I
like to avoid it. I like to feel a field.
So yeah, thanks for letting me share this with with everybody. UM,
As always, we would love to hear from any listeners.
You can email us. Our email is Stuff Media Mom
Stuff at iHeart mea dot com. You can find us
(22:57):
on Instagram and Stuff I Never Told You. We're on
Twitter app Mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks. It's always for our
super producers J. J. Posway and Andrew Howard, and thanks
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