July 19, 2017 • 42 mins
Miley Cyrus dropped hip hop like it’s hot, saying she no longer identifies with the genre. But this stylistic choice is far from simple, and indicative of a larger, troubling trend.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to stuff Mom never told you. Today, we are tackling
a little topic you may have heard of before, the
one and only Miley Cyrus. Ohley, Oh Miley. That really
(00:29):
is the way we're tackling Miley today because the latest news,
I don't know if y'all heard, is that Miley Cyrus
is quitting hip hop and returning to her country roots,
which really it sounds benign. It sounds like just a
stylistic change. But if you look into a little bit
of the history of cultural appropriation and how Miley picked
(00:52):
up hip hop to run with it, Miley has been
very guilty of that, and it was a bit deaf
to the critiques that came up Bangers Days and when
she rebranded herself from Disney's Hannah Montana to an edgy
woman who's in the hip hop scene and capitalized on
black culture. Uh, you know, we're going to talk through
(01:15):
some of the conversation that we started with the hair episode.
Is my hair a feminist statement when we talked about
cultural appropriation? And this is a perfect example of a
white woman who has made major financial gains through co
opting black culture right in in her art. You know,
a lot of people when she first hit the scene
(01:36):
as her sort of edgy rebranded you know, vibe, a
lot of people pointed out that it seemed as if
she was putting on blackness as kind of a costume.
And I think that she the fact that she's now
kind of abandoned that and made it very clear. It
just gives a lot of credence to that argument. I
think it definitely does. It reinforces this idea that, um,
(01:58):
it must be nice right to have white privilege and
be able to you know, carry put on blackness as
a costume that yields big financial gains. When when when
white women you know, are the ones twerking, or when
white women are the ones sort of running with black
culture on stage or using black backup dancers as props.
(02:21):
I think I see it, I mean again as a
continuation of of how it plays out when you think
about hair, I see it a lot with hair, where
you know, when you wear certain styles that like if
I wore in a job interview, I would not get
called back if I wore in certain schools in America
right now, girls, you know, in America right now today
or you know, not being allowed to go to prom.
(02:42):
We're going to talk about dress code soon. That is
definitely not what if I showed up to a high
school with the hair styles I could be, I could
be suspended. And we're talking about Gwen Stefani's like ninety
what is it in the ats, like the early to
mid ots, she was rocking a lot of corn rows.
Katy Perry's got chopsticks in her hair, like And I
(03:03):
think that that's important to recognize when you're able to
sort of wear this as a fashion. For some people,
it's not, you know, it's it's their identities, it's their
cultural heritages, and that identity doesn't leave you when you're
in a very different context, like being pulled over for
a broken tai light exactly. So that must be nice.
And I think that kind of being blind, that privilege
(03:25):
is where it got Miley in a lot of trouble.
And let me also say that I really wanted Miley
to be successful. I really wanted to see not another embarrassing,
ignorant white girl in the public eye, because, first of all,
I think I'm embarrassed for her right now because of
(03:45):
the ways that she is perpetuating really ignorant statements around
hip hops and things like, you know, it's all misogynistic,
This entire art form, this entire genre that has a
very long history, that is deeply rooted in the American
come up story and in the Black American history, and
(04:05):
she's painting it all with his misogynsy. I think that
that's one of the things that bugs me so much
about her statements. Honestly, it reads to me like someone
who doesn't really know that much about hip hop. I'm
so quickly reminded of not that long ago. I think
it was Iggy Azalea, and this is back when Iggy
Azalea was irrelevant. But you know, she was on Twitter,
and I want to say it was cute Tip, who
(04:26):
very lovingly tweeted at her like, hey, here are some
interesting facts about the history of hip hop that you
might be interested in, and she responded in kind of
a strange way. And again, I just feel like, if
you are someone who is making if hip hop and
black culture is essentially helping you pay your rent, it's
you owe it to folks this sort of do it
(04:47):
justice and to talk about it in ways that are
thoughtful and nuances to importin and like, maybe just care
about the culture exactly you've come from. And I think
that when Moley makes the goes on to say, oh,
I'm done with hip hop, it's all you know B
words and you know, swearing right in the Billboard interview,
let me let me read the quote, right, So all right,
read what I can from the quote. She gave a
(05:10):
very long and a little bit concerning lee disjointed interview
in Billboard magazine that I highly recommend y'all check out.
But what's funny is that she said in the interview,
I haven't smoked weed in two weeks. And this is
as clear headed as I've been in years. Isn't that phenomenal?
And I'm like, I'm again I wanted to cheer her
(05:33):
on because she's done some good stuff in this in
this time, and I think she's clearly created her own
path forward. She doesn't have a hyper produced Instagram feed,
and even like talking about legalization in marijuana, I think
could have been productive had she gone about it in
a very different way, And yet here she is just
like not representing her I think intentions very well. So
(05:57):
in the article she says, I love that new Kendrick song.
She's talking about humble, you know, she pulls that that
line from Kendrick song about show me something natural, like
a behind, let's say, with some stretch marks. She goes,
I love that because it's not come sit on my
insert the male anatomy phrase here that she would like
(06:19):
to or suck on my ditto like the male anatomy.
And we just talked about there. So she's saying, I
can't listen to that anymore. Quote. That's what pushed me
out of the hip hop scene a little. It was
too much Lamborghini got my, Rolex got a girl on
my you know what. And she goes, I'm so not
into that. And to me, that was an oversimplification and
(06:43):
painting the entire genre and history of hip hop with
this misogynistic brush. Yeah. So I have a lot a
lot to say about that. First of all, just as
a note, I think it's interesting that people who aren't
maybe a super into hip hop, but who want to
seem as though they are, always go to Kendrick lamar
as there. Oh like, it's so deep and woke and conscious.
I love but it's it's interesting to me that that
(07:05):
it's always seems to be the you know it used
to be back in the day, it used to be
um tribe called Quest. Then when I was in college,
white guys would always hit on me by being like, Hey,
I'm really into tribe called Quests, so one too. I actually, I,
as much as I love Kendrick Lamar, I actually found
that song to be a little bit problematic. That, you know, like,
if you are a woman who you know, let's makeup
(07:28):
on and wants to get her hair alot, like shame, yeah,
and and that shouldn't make you It's just it seems
to me to fall along the lines of a very
traditional understanding of womanhood and female identity. That like, if
you are a woman who wears makeup and wears heels
and you know, straightens your hair or whatever, then you're
somehow less of a natural woman or less of a
(07:50):
real woman if you do these things. And I don't.
I don't buy that at all, because I straightened my
hair and I'm, you know, a real woman. I'm not.
I'm not like you know, it makes it seem if
you can't be smart and with it and progressive if
you do these things. So I already don't like Kendrick
as much as his music is great, does not have
a feminist perspective. We could do a whole episode. We can,
(08:12):
because I love his music as well, but like dang,
it's problematic when it comes to a gender lens. And
I think, and I think as a long time hip
hop fan, I think I have like accepted that that's okay, right,
it's as a feminist, as a black feminist and a
hip hop fan, you do have to say, well, I'm
enjoying there are plenty of songs that I enjoy that
do not have a feminist lens. But I think that
(08:34):
what I get so frustrated with Miley about is that's
I think that is true along including country. And I
think it's interesting how she is like, oh, well, hip
hop is all B words and you know, sex where
but you get what I'm I'm coming from, um and yeah,
(08:57):
and presenting it as though hip hop is the only
genre of music in which that is a thing. And
it just feels like she has learned nothing about black
history in America exactly this entire journey in which she
was called out for, you know, twerking, for her attire,
her using of black culture to make her edgy and
(09:18):
get out of Hannah Montana zone in the public eye,
which works right catapult from the top of the chart.
It's very effective. But you know, all of the critiques
she she was given for using black women's bodies on
stage is almost a prop like she'd never acknowledged or
leaned into the discomfort. When I think Nicki Minaj, we
(09:39):
can come back to that which we talked about in
the hair episode. I think she came up when she said,
what's good Miley? You know she first called her out.
There was that moment that there was no better. That
was one of my top five moments of that year.
Was ground I also love you know, I just talked
about how much I love Nicki Manag all day. But
just as an aside, I love that Nicki Minaj was
had in the same brea as thanking her pastor. She
(10:02):
was like, I want to thank my pastor. But also
back to this view word, I was like, oh my god,
I'm talking about your pastor to call it out Miley
in the same breath that I love it, So I
felt again like, oh man, here's Miley cyrus uh talented
musician who has chops, who has vocal chal and who
(10:24):
I wanted to see get woke Miley, get woke Miley
right being called out on stage by another one of
my favorite artists. I can't say Miley as a favorite artist,
but I really wanted her to be successful in learning.
And it's hard to be called out and get woke
in the public eye. I will admit it, um, But
I was witnessing my Nikki take her down and say
(10:46):
you can't have the good without the bat. You can't
not be interested in the issues that affect the black
community but capitalize on black culture. And it was a
perfect point, but she totally had deer in the headlights
and did not respond to that. Well, yeah, and I
think that that is really My point is that I
do genuinely feel you know, if you're like no one
is forcing you to be woke. It will be nice
(11:08):
if you were woke, but you know, you don't have
to make the choice to say I'm going to immerse
myself in black culture, hip hop culture and that's going
to help my come up. No one is forcing you
to do that. But I do feel like if you
are going to, you know, pay your bills via things
that have been popularized by the black community, it seems
unfair to do that and and just sort of do
(11:29):
it so callously. And I think that when she rebranded
herself as like, oh, I'm going back to country, it
just made it very clear that she saw that as
like a costume or a hat that she could trad
for a while and then walk around in it and
then take it off. And it just seems I don't
know that I've ever seen that happen in such a
stark way with a celebrity totally. And this is a
(11:49):
problem well beyond Miley, as we discussed, there's a big
hit problem in Hollywood and in the pop star creation
engine that really incur his young pop stars, especially when
they're transitioning from girl in the public eye to woman, right,
whether it's Christina Aguilera, Gwen Stefani, who was the other
(12:10):
person we were thinking of who had oh Katy Perry. Yeah.
Did we even talk about cultural approparation with Britney like
one was? I don't think so. But I mean for me,
it's like she was the ultimate when I think about
how a girl yeow woman? Yeah, she was the ultimate
in my mind of like you know, young bubble gum
star who was sort of groomed to be this very young,
(12:32):
innocent person and then clearly sort of struggled with that
uh in the public eye, and then was kind of
vilified for we have a tailor made so, even divorced
from the conversation of cultural appropriation, I think that that
is a tailor made thing. Watching female music, female celebrities,
and even you know, probably one of my favorite favorite
(12:53):
artists of all time on a much smaller scale, dealt
with this, Janet Jackson. People forget that in the early
days of Janet Jackson, she was sort of in her
brother shadow and that she one of her first songs
was called Let's Wait Awhile about how she didn't want
to have sex. She was sort of being groomed to
be this sort of bubblegum, sweet, innocent, like family musician
who was sort of on the Jackson family, you know, lineup.
(13:15):
And then when she made Control, that whole album is
about how she, you know, is an adult. She's taking
control and her music got a lot more risque, and
so did she and you really saw exposing her and yeah,
you really saw her kind of grapple and albeit in
a much sort of more subtle way, grapple with this
(13:36):
trap that I think we set for female celebrities to
get big when they're very young. We watched them grow,
and I think we expect a lot from them in
these ways that sometimes aren't always fair. So I wonder
if we're seeing my struggle with that, right, and I
wish there was a better playbook for how to deal
with that with by listening to your critics. And I mean,
(13:57):
we're dealing with that, right. We got some critics that yeah,
and we it's challenging to not get defensive. And that's
exactly what we saw Miley do. And I want to
bring it back to the issue of race and appropriation
here for a second, um to acknowledge that Miley's not
alone in this. And the incredible editor of Ebony magazine
(14:21):
back in t when Miley was hitting peak Bangers appropriation
phase with her album Bangers, Uh, they put out a
cover article Look at this cover that says America loves
black people, except it crossed out people and wrote culture.
That's exactly and she she penned the editor editor in chief,
(14:43):
Kierana Mayo, penned this great opening letter when she put
out that article, saying, Uh, you know what I've learned
is if you ask black people how they feel about
America's obsession with black culture but the all too common
rejection of black people, you just may tumble down a
rabbit hole of no return. But that's actually a good thing.
(15:05):
We all have something to say about this. I only
hope your individual perspective finds a little validation right here.
And she talks about the overwhelming reminders that America truly
loves what it perceives as black, from baby oil to butts,
colored greens, crunk, but actual black people perhaps not so much.
And it's just I mean, they really went for it
(15:27):
with this cover to talk through this peak moment that
I think Miley was at the forefront of of black
culture being very cool. Yeah, and I think I mean,
as a black woman, I can say that black culture
has been like this is not any thing from like
the the you know, the twenties when it was black.
I mean think back to people like Billie Holiday being
(15:50):
having a headlining act but not being able to use
the front door of the club where she was performing, right,
like not being able to sit where she wanted to
sit after people after white people paid good money to
listen to her sin and I think this has been
something that we have this love hate relationship in America
with blackness, and that's something that has been very clear,
(16:11):
I think, through for for a very long time. And
honestly that that image, it reminds me so much of
a sign I saw at a Black Lives Matter protest
where it's a girl holding aside and it says, if
you kill us all, where will you get your ideas right?
And so again, it's this idea that like America loves
blackness when it's perceived as entertaining, when it's sports, when
(16:33):
it's this, when it's that, but whenever when it's displayed
by white women. Correct. Correct, And I think when it
comes to actual actually investing in blackness and protecting in
a flifting blackness in ways that are more meaningful, we
just as a country just don't. Well, let's take a
quick break, and when we come back, we're going to
dive into this latest transition back to country and why
(16:53):
that's especially problematic, as well as some of the good
things that Miley has been doing, um, some of the
interesting ways in which she's pushed the envelope, uh, and
some of the troubling things that she's been doing. We'll
be back after a quick word from our sponsors, and
(17:16):
we're back, And I want to take a moment to
give Miley some credit for the good work she has
been doing. It's not all bad, and this is part
of the reason why I feel so torn about Miley Cyrus.
The first component is that she is a very talented
singer and performer. There's no doubt about that. And when
people could I feel, I feel like to watch the
(17:38):
Backyard session. I have enjoyed some of her songs. I
will say that she has a great cover of Jolene.
With the Backyard, I was like, oh, she actually doesn't
have a nice voice, right, And there's but that's not enough,
right what being in the public eye in the way
that celebrities are, and being an artistic creator, you are
(17:58):
defined by the choices you make when it comes to
how to not just put your music together, but the
visuals that go along with it. So it's fair for
us to judge. But in her spare time, when she's
not hanging out with all her dogs and animals, which
is another part of my little vegan heart that I
kind of love about Miley, and I wanted to I
wanted to see her succeed because she's big into animals,
(18:21):
um and yoga, but she's also into um starting the
Happy Hippie Foundation, which is actually legitimately very cool. It's
very cool. And I watched her start that via Instagram
back in when she had started the Happy Hippie Foundation,
which is a nonprofit advocacy organization working with to end
(18:42):
really LGBT youth homelessness in Los Angeles. And what I
often see is that celebrities, when they try to start
a cause or a uh you know, advocate for something
they believe in, they go really big national. She went
right to her backyard, which I love that just as great. Yeah,
I mean, I love the idea of hyper low goal
sort of starting and shout out to her because that
(19:03):
actually is very cool. Yeah. And she saw a problem
that she could take action on, and she wanted to
talk about something that a lot of people weren't talking about.
She used her public profile to shine a spotlight on
this very glaring problem that people weren't talking about that
especially effects LGBT youth. She sends Jesse on stage when
(19:26):
she's accepting, you know, she's not even accepting. She sends Jesse,
who's a member or someone who benefited from the work
through the Happy Hippie Foundation to go receive this award
on her behalf at the v m AS when she
was again winning for art that she created by appropriating
Black culture. So there's a lot wrapped up in here.
It's like, I feel so tremendous. You're like, you're doing
(19:50):
great things for LGBT youth, But can we just like
acknowledge that you're still completely appropriating black culture, benefiting from it,
cashing in on it, and not doing any work that
I've seen to specifically address the issues facing the black community.
And that's problematic. It's problematic. And again, I mean I
something that I think I keep coming back to is
(20:12):
that what I wish that, what I wish I saw
her doing more of is messing up gracefully, messing up learning,
saying like, oh, you're right, I did do this, and
oh like, oh I didn't. I hadn't realized that, and
grappling with that in public like she's done that with
pan sexuality. She said it, and she come out saying
I didn't understand my own gender, my own sexuality. I'm
(20:35):
you know, really interested in supporting LGBT rights, which I
think is commendable and great. She talks about weed and
legalization and animal rights, and she's done that in other
parts of her life. So why Miley can't you do that?
I mean with black culture. Yeah, I think I'm the answer,
which is that people get defensive when it comes to race.
(20:55):
So people who otherwise would be progressive, thoughtful, you want
sort of um like willing to own that they don't
know have all the answers, and they might mess up.
I've I've encountered this in my day to day life
quite a bit. The people that you think of as
very um smart people, otherwise smart kind people when it
comes to race, like a wall goes up. And honestly,
(21:17):
it's one of those things that I think there's a
writer that writes about this that when you when someone
feels as if they are being accused of being a racist,
that is something something happens to them in their minds
where they can no longer respond the way they would otherwise.
Like I'm forgetting the writer who writes this, but this
idea that what happens when you call someone a racist
is they have the reaction that they have in their
(21:39):
own minds is a very intense one, and I think
it's just Miley is showcasing that, you know, for a
lot of people, grappling with race, particularly publicly, is difficult.
Isn't that such an American unique? Yeah? You want to
talk about American exceptional and what did you say, exceptionalism?
We are exceptionally bad at grappling. Yeah, Well, clearly it's
baked into our nation's history and it's so clearly still
(22:03):
sticking around. Well, of course, one of our favorite publications,
teen Vogue, covered this issue in a really exceptional way,
in a really great way. So there's this article UM
that I came across by Michael Arson. No, Miley Cyrus
faces rightful backlash in light of past cultural appropriation, and
(22:25):
in it he covers how UM being rightfully criticized. Miley
took to Instagram to explain why it's okay for her
to just drop black culture, drop hip hop, and move
on dot com right because she says what she wants
to gravitate towards more thoughtful conscious hip hop. Yes, she
(22:46):
goes quote, at this point in my life, I'm expanding personally,
slash musically, and gravitating towards more uplifting, conscious rap I again,
I mean as a hip hop fan, is a long
time hip hop fan. It's quotes like that, and again,
just to unpack what I mean, I feel like that
comment sounds very positive, but if you if you unpack
(23:08):
what she's actually saying, it's to me, it's like a
dig on hip hop. Right, you're saying that, you know.
I remember when Miley's I was got on stage and
saying the classic hit my neck, my Back, which is
all about pretty great, pretty intense sex acts. Right, she's asking,
you know, and she's screaming the lyrics, and then she
is and she's working on stage in a new bikini,
(23:31):
and she's pointing the finger at others. And so I
feel as though it's it's hypocritical. It's hypocritical for her
to have said it's fine. It's it's like saying, oh,
it's fine when I do it, you know, And that's
what I don't like. Yeah. Well, here Michael actually follows
up her quote in his article saying, but if you
don't respect the subcultures you borrow from, you are not
so much curious as you are a charlatan. In a
(23:53):
perfect world, black art made by black people would be
just as successful as the art made by a white
artist whose quote inspired by it. In an ideal society,
what black people are vilified for wouldn't be so much
more alluring when performed by white people. Totally. That means
that quote just really sums it up nicely for me,
(24:14):
I think, And again that's something that I have I
think any person of color has seen like play out
in so many different ways. Um, there's a poem I
forget the name of the poem, the poet, but she
talks about how if you you know, if you want
to wear Bundy's, you should also take you know, you
(24:34):
can't just take the good and not the bad. Like
if you're gonna take take wearing a Bundy, and you're
gonna take you know, wearing a Sorry and all of that,
then you should also have to take all of the
heavier baggage that comes along with those things. You can't
just try them on like a costume and not take
the heavier aspects of it or even really understand them
or care about them. Yeah, it's disrespectful, and especially when
(24:56):
when there's such commercial financial success connected to it. So
the talk about her returning to her country roots. I
read the full interview she gave on Billboard, uh, through Billboard,
whatever you wanna call it, And I just wrote here
in the notes, I was like, this is some serious
all lives matter stuff right here, because what she's doing
(25:17):
is similar to me in saying all lives, all lives, bladder,
all lives matter to folks in the Black Lives Matter movement,
and she's saying um in the article the the author rights.
Cyrus was first inspired to reach beyond her circle of
quote outspoken liberals and cultivate country fans and red staters
(25:40):
in ten when she began as a coach on nbc
Stalwart Talent competition The Voice quote. I like talking to
people that don't agree with me, but I don't think
I can do that in an aggressive way, said Cyrus.
I don't think these people are going to listen to
me when I'm sitting there in nipple pasties, you know.
And I just had so much. There's some which to that,
(26:01):
which is like, of course we want to talk to
people with who disagree. How about the black people who
have been critiquing you, Like, why are you listening intently
and empathically to the folks who you know, we're we're
She talks explicitly in this article about Trump fans and
Trump supporters, but you don't give black communities that same
(26:23):
benefit of the doubt. I see this on such a
on both a micro and a macro level, and that
that has been reflected in our in our cultural dynamic
in so many ways, right, Like, why is it that
after election, after the election, we all went through this
thing where it was like, how about having a little
empathy for Trump supporters? And I am not suggesting that
we should not have that Trump supporters are not deserving
of empathy. How my question is why is it that
(26:45):
we have to let when it comes to largely white
audiences that we are very quick to suggest, oh, we
need to be empathetic of their of their you know,
situations and all of that. But we do not afford
all people that privilege. Right when when young, unarmed black
people are killed by the police, immediately they're like, well,
he was arrested for marijuana, but nine years ago, you'd
(27:07):
be the judge, right, Like he worked a little shady, right,
And so what my question is, I would be all
about a more empathetic society if we're if we're champion
championing that society for all, not just for white people.
And I think right now empathy is reserved for whites.
I genuinely believe that, on a large scale, most of
America does not believe the black community to be deserving
(27:28):
of any kind of empathy that you know. And I
think it's reflected and how we talk about these things.
I think, you know, how poor white voters are, you know,
the working class or low income or whatever, and that
we just think about those same people economically when they
are black. The conversation is very different. And so I
(27:49):
just see that reflected all in all the ways. I
am nodding vigorously over here. What's funny is it? Before
we recorded this, I was like, guys, don't let me
get too political, And here I am. And another thing, Well,
it's hard not to. I mean, here she goes. Listen,
Miley herself says, my record is political, but you can't
really say that because then the news headline is, you know,
(28:11):
this is a political record, and then I'm the Dixie
Chicks and I'm getting my album smashed in the streets
and that's not what I want. But telling no, she
wants commercial success just like bangers. She wants people to
love her again. She misses her white friends, she misses
he Honestly, the cover of this article should have just said,
Miley cyrus Colin, I'm white again. I miss being I
(28:34):
missed my being adored by my white country fans. She
goes quote, I'm down for hanging with Blake Shelton on
the voice. I actually want to take advantage of the
fact that he's there, Like how telling is that? First
of all, and then his fans don't really take me
seriously as a country artist. One. I haven't given them
that music. But listen, I've got a tattoo of Johnny
Cash's autograph he gave me when I was a little
(28:56):
girl that says, I'm in your corner. Dolly Parton is
my you know, god mother. And the fact that country
music fans are scared of me that hurts me. And
I'm just thinking, oh, poor Mile. She has a tiny
faction of an experience of what it's like to be
black in America and and feared and not so embraced
by white country fans. And that's what it comes down
(29:18):
to for me as a black woman. I can't just
take this, put this on, take this off. But she
believes that she should be able to, you know, sit
with the black kids at lunch and be fine and
be accepted, and then sit with the country kids at
lunch and be fine and be accepted. And this idea,
I mean, she says that herself, I have not given
country music listeners country music, yet she still feels like
(29:38):
they they should be like there and to their support.
That's what I think that bugs me so much about that.
And then she goes on to say, quote, it's mind
boggling to me that there was even a controversy around
me having black dancers. That became a thing where people
said I was taking advantage of black culture and with
Mike Will made it what the you know, and then
f she says that wasn't true. Those were the dancers
(30:01):
I liked. And so this is a perfect example of
Miley not actually hearing what our critics have to say,
of Miley not getting curious around the issues facing black
Americans today that have given her the commercial success, like
the culture from which she has derived commercial success. She's
clearly not listening and she's just getting defensive, like you said,
(30:23):
And I think, I mean, as someone who has had
plenty of like online discussions about race online arguments about race.
I see that so clearly. How she twists it that,
like people were not yelling at you because you had
black dancers. You're misrepresenting what they are saying and you
don't get it. And I do think it's possible for
celebrities who borrow a lot from black culture to do
(30:45):
it thoughtfully, Like I look at one of my favorite
musicians and also shout out to my mom because I
just I spent a weekend at home and I found
out that my mom has a mild not even mild,
has a pretty big crush on Bruno Mars, my mom
and she was like, Mars so handsome. I was like,
are you in love with Brute? Are you gonna leave
dad for Bruno Mars's happening? But Bruno Mars, I think
is someone who it's not black, he very much, you know,
(31:09):
he founds like a black R and B singer from
you know, the nineties, and he's someone who has a
lot of thoughtful things to say about black culture. He
very much is explicit and saying like, yeah, I respect
black culture so much. And so he in an interview
said when you say, when you say black music, understand
that you're talking about rock, jazz, R and B, reggae, funk, doop,
(31:30):
hip hop, and motown black people created at all. Being
Puerto Rican even saw some music stems back to the
motherland of Africa. So in my world, black music means
everything to me. It's what gives America. It's swag, and
I think it's No one is saying you can't have
black backup dancers. No one is saying you can't borrow
from hip hop, from jazz, from funk, from doop, from
go go, from all of that. But you just have
(31:52):
to do like if you're if you're paying your rent
being things that black folks built, you need to It's
worth it to do it thoughtfully, to do it, you know, carefully,
and I think shout out to Bruno Mars for priding
that template of how you can do that. And I
just feel like, as a white woe, I'm looking at
Miley Ands and like, come on, Miley, woke it up
(32:14):
a little bit. Don't be it, don't like, don't tarnish
all white Wood's reputation. She totally is bringing. She's in
my haircut. There was so many ways I wanted her
to do this right, and she just time and time
again has criticized the critiques instead of like actually listening
to what's going on there. And so we're gonna get
into a lot more all things Miley. But after a
(32:34):
quick word from our sponsor, and we're back, and there's
one more little nugget of Miley that it's just too
kind of troubling and weird to not mention, which is
her video for baby Talk. Right. I don't know if
(32:54):
anybody saw this, because this is that peak cringe Miley moment.
I think the whole world collective just looked away when
she got in a giant diaper and a baby bonnet
and a pascifire and rolled around and grinded up in
a crib for an entire music video baby Talk. I
have to say I had not seen this video when
I pulled it up right before the episode, I shrieked,
(33:18):
if you've ever seen that episode of Dirty Rock where
one of the characters, Frank, has that hot baby or
sexy baby skins, and it's like a woman wearing a
plastic baby dog head but also wearing a BAKKINI that
was immediately what I thought of. It was so and
so trigger warning here for anyone who's dealt with these
issues in a really big way probably should have said
(33:40):
that a couple of seconds ago. But this is like
pervert bait, right. We're talking about the sexualization of children
in her video, and I don't think there was enough
of a public backlash against the explicit hyper sexualization of
children and babies. And it also came up for me
again when I was watching her brand new video for Malibu,
(34:02):
and maybe it's just me. I don't want to be
I don't want to body shame Miley Cyrus for being
fin or having a childlike body, but there is an
innocence and this goes back to the dichotomy we're talking
about right at the opening of being a pop star,
a female pop star in America today means, you know, uh,
fluctuating between the innocent Brittany of the schoolgirl era with
(34:26):
a little shirt tied up, which is a pretty hyper
sexualized sixteen year old high school student that we're all
like thinking is super hot to eighteen year old woman
you know now can be a legal sex office exactly.
And so Miley's version was that can't be tamed. And
(34:48):
now she's having this like I feel like she's coming
full circle trying to get out of hip hop by
going back to this child like freakishly child like, like
maybe a little disturbed try like. And I think I
think that you really hit the nail on the head
in terms of how female pop stars especially are when
(35:09):
they start out very young and innocent, like they we
want to watch them. We're first of all, we're actively
rooting for them to fail. I think of the culture,
We're like, yeah, I can't wait till she's you know,
shaving her head that I don't know. We we we
I'm so guilty of it. So I'm every all these
young successful or like early successful Disney stars, You're like, yeah,
(35:34):
you I think we maybe we don't. We're uncomfortable with
the sort of squeaky clean im injury they project, and
so we when they kind of go rogue, it's fascinating.
But yeah, I think I'm old enough to remember back
when she was still squeaky clean and there was like
pictures of her hitting a bong and things like that,
(35:55):
and it was a huge controversy. And I just think
that she was presented with the choice of do like,
do I stay sort of childlike? Do I grow up?
And she just leaned super hard in the other direction.
I'm part of me can't kind of blame her. Well,
it worked for her, let's just acknowledge how commercially successful
she became, but in doing so, she isolated the nice
white country folk who she had as fans. And speaking
(36:17):
of hitting the bond, now she's bragging in her Billboard
article about ditching marijuana and going back to this innocent,
clean Miley, and so it just seems like this grasping
at a pass that she can't you can't reclaim that. Okay,
that's not gonna work totally, And there's this infantilizing component
to it that I think was evident in the most
(36:38):
pedophile like bait video I've ever seen in my life,
Babe Talk, and even in Malibu, which is sort of
like clean, innocent, very childlike imagery around And maybe I'm
the only one who see use it this way, but like,
I think we're basically like rooting on this very very
childlike version of Miley's body being actualized and portrayed in
(37:01):
this like sweet innocent, jungly, you know, on the kid
on the beach type way. She's uncomfortable, and I think
what's clear to anyone who saw that image of her
like in a desert on in a flowy white dress,
what what what she was trying to project? I think
it was very clear, like what method she was trying
to send out and what we're supposed to take away
(37:22):
from that image when you look at the image of her,
you know, working on stage in a nude body suit
and this image of her wearing a long flowing way
down very visional, you know, And I think it's very
clear what we're being asked to take away from images
like that. And isn't it sad that those are the
two tropes that women in the public, either one or
(37:42):
the other, one or the other. You can't be of
multifaceted human being. You're either the virgin or the vixen.
It's just so I mean, in some ways it's kind
of sad. But like she's got the I'm looking at
the video now, she got the little pig tails, Like
it's almost like Mariah Carey esque, like wildflowers. It's the
pig deals. That's what really did it for me. She
she's got two little braids and she's got pigtails. And
(38:04):
to me, maybe I'm judging pigtails too much here, But
there's this like kind of childlike innocence with the balloons
and the goofy dancing, and I just think it just
feels like pedophile bait. Am I wrong? I'm I don't
know if you're wrong, but I don't like this is
this video is like legitimately making me a very very
(38:27):
I don't quite know what it is about it that
I find so I just strange. I just left thinking, Oh, Miley,
and that's I think that's where we have to leave it,
like little girl skipping through the skipping through the fields
with her doggie. It's just like, please take me back country,
you know, please love me again. I'm just a little girl,
(38:47):
and it's got that like innocent thing to it. But
maybe maybe I'm reading way too much into this, y'all.
I have not seen writing on like the pedophile angle
of Miley Cyrus. I haven't seen a lot of cultural critique,
especially even there was a little bit on the baby
Talk video. But y'all, this is just another way in
which I feel like in her quest to be an
(39:09):
independent creative person, and I totally respect the endeavor, the
intent behind going your own route, not having a hyper
managed you know, creative control, like taking your own creative
control as an artist. But if you're going to borrow
from black culture the way with Miley Cyrus is done.
If you're gonna run around in a diaper in the
way the Miley Cyrus has done, you better be cognizant
(39:33):
of more than just how the homeless LGBT youth of
Los Angeles need your help, or the pets need your help,
or the pets, Yeah, how about black people. Let's start there.
I mean, I not I don't want to trash Miley
because I agree with you, Like I remember when I
saw her on the Vienna Is a friend of mine,
a co worker said, Oh, it was such a weird
(39:54):
kind of like interesting, weird performance. I almost just want
to give her like a box of Riot Girl CDs
at a box, you know, a box of like interesting
music to help her along this path that she's on
so she gets to where she needs to go. And
I just, you know, I think for me, the kind
of end all be all of all this is that
it's probably it's very difficult to grapple with all of
(40:16):
this in the public eye. Definitely get woke in the
public eye. But there are models for people who are
doing it right and there is a right way to
do it, and I just I feel like she's doing
it wrong constantly. Yeah, and this part, I mean, let's see.
I want to hear from our country fans. Are you
embracing Miley with open arms? Is this working for you?
I have a feeling it's not. And how about those
(40:38):
who fell in love with Miley of the hip hop genre?
How do you feel about her not only ditching the
genre but also trashing it on her way out the door? Um?
And let's talk about Miley and LGBT advocacy and her
coming out as pan sexual. Let's talk about Miley and race.
Let's talk about Miley and the somewhat infantilizing of her.
(41:00):
Is a coal appearance in a weirdly sexual way? Does
that bother you as much as it bothers me? And
how do we how do we like? How do we
move forward from here? I want to champion women who
are navigating the creative process because it's not easy getting
wogan and easy either, but doing so in the public eye.
I just feel like, aren't there better ways for us
(41:21):
to help help help each other sort of stay awoke,
be woke and stay awoke, So with that, we want
to hear from you any any last word I think,
I think all right? So how can how can our
lovely ladies uh hit us up on so we didn't
we need to hear it from y'all. Um. You can
hit us up on the Graham at Stuff Mom Never
(41:42):
Told You, on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and you
can shoot us a good old fashioned email. Tell us
about your canail us Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com. Four
Hey, this is Emily, and this is and you're listening
to stuff Mom never told you. Today, we are tackling
a little topic you may have heard of before, the
one and only Miley Cyrus. Ohley, Oh Miley. That really
(00:29):
is the way we're tackling Miley today because the latest news,
I don't know if y'all heard, is that Miley Cyrus
is quitting hip hop and returning to her country roots,
which really it sounds benign. It sounds like just a
stylistic change. But if you look into a little bit
of the history of cultural appropriation and how Miley picked
(00:52):
up hip hop to run with it, Miley has been
very guilty of that, and it was a bit deaf
to the critiques that came up Bangers Days and when
she rebranded herself from Disney's Hannah Montana to an edgy
woman who's in the hip hop scene and capitalized on
black culture. Uh, you know, we're going to talk through
(01:15):
some of the conversation that we started with the hair episode.
Is my hair a feminist statement when we talked about
cultural appropriation? And this is a perfect example of a
white woman who has made major financial gains through co
opting black culture right in in her art. You know,
a lot of people when she first hit the scene
(01:36):
as her sort of edgy rebranded you know, vibe, a
lot of people pointed out that it seemed as if
she was putting on blackness as kind of a costume.
And I think that she the fact that she's now
kind of abandoned that and made it very clear. It
just gives a lot of credence to that argument. I
think it definitely does. It reinforces this idea that, um,
(01:58):
it must be nice right to have white privilege and
be able to you know, carry put on blackness as
a costume that yields big financial gains. When when when
white women you know, are the ones twerking, or when
white women are the ones sort of running with black
culture on stage or using black backup dancers as props.
(02:21):
I think I see it, I mean again as a
continuation of of how it plays out when you think
about hair, I see it a lot with hair, where
you know, when you wear certain styles that like if
I wore in a job interview, I would not get
called back if I wore in certain schools in America
right now, girls, you know, in America right now today
or you know, not being allowed to go to prom.
(02:42):
We're going to talk about dress code soon. That is
definitely not what if I showed up to a high
school with the hair styles I could be, I could
be suspended. And we're talking about Gwen Stefani's like ninety
what is it in the ats, like the early to
mid ots, she was rocking a lot of corn rows.
Katy Perry's got chopsticks in her hair, like And I
(03:03):
think that that's important to recognize when you're able to
sort of wear this as a fashion. For some people,
it's not, you know, it's it's their identities, it's their
cultural heritages, and that identity doesn't leave you when you're
in a very different context, like being pulled over for
a broken tai light exactly. So that must be nice.
And I think that kind of being blind, that privilege
(03:25):
is where it got Miley in a lot of trouble.
And let me also say that I really wanted Miley
to be successful. I really wanted to see not another embarrassing,
ignorant white girl in the public eye, because, first of all,
I think I'm embarrassed for her right now because of
(03:45):
the ways that she is perpetuating really ignorant statements around
hip hops and things like, you know, it's all misogynistic,
This entire art form, this entire genre that has a
very long history, that is deeply rooted in the American
come up story and in the Black American history, and
(04:05):
she's painting it all with his misogynsy. I think that
that's one of the things that bugs me so much
about her statements. Honestly, it reads to me like someone
who doesn't really know that much about hip hop. I'm
so quickly reminded of not that long ago. I think
it was Iggy Azalea, and this is back when Iggy
Azalea was irrelevant. But you know, she was on Twitter,
and I want to say it was cute Tip, who
(04:26):
very lovingly tweeted at her like, hey, here are some
interesting facts about the history of hip hop that you
might be interested in, and she responded in kind of
a strange way. And again, I just feel like, if
you are someone who is making if hip hop and
black culture is essentially helping you pay your rent, it's
you owe it to folks this sort of do it
(04:47):
justice and to talk about it in ways that are
thoughtful and nuances to importin and like, maybe just care
about the culture exactly you've come from. And I think
that when Moley makes the goes on to say, oh,
I'm done with hip hop, it's all you know B
words and you know, swearing right in the Billboard interview,
let me let me read the quote, right, So all right,
read what I can from the quote. She gave a
(05:10):
very long and a little bit concerning lee disjointed interview
in Billboard magazine that I highly recommend y'all check out.
But what's funny is that she said in the interview,
I haven't smoked weed in two weeks. And this is
as clear headed as I've been in years. Isn't that phenomenal?
And I'm like, I'm again I wanted to cheer her
(05:33):
on because she's done some good stuff in this in
this time, and I think she's clearly created her own
path forward. She doesn't have a hyper produced Instagram feed,
and even like talking about legalization in marijuana, I think
could have been productive had she gone about it in
a very different way, And yet here she is just
like not representing her I think intentions very well. So
(05:57):
in the article she says, I love that new Kendrick song.
She's talking about humble, you know, she pulls that that
line from Kendrick song about show me something natural, like
a behind, let's say, with some stretch marks. She goes,
I love that because it's not come sit on my
insert the male anatomy phrase here that she would like
(06:19):
to or suck on my ditto like the male anatomy.
And we just talked about there. So she's saying, I
can't listen to that anymore. Quote. That's what pushed me
out of the hip hop scene a little. It was
too much Lamborghini got my, Rolex got a girl on
my you know what. And she goes, I'm so not
into that. And to me, that was an oversimplification and
(06:43):
painting the entire genre and history of hip hop with
this misogynistic brush. Yeah. So I have a lot a
lot to say about that. First of all, just as
a note, I think it's interesting that people who aren't
maybe a super into hip hop, but who want to
seem as though they are, always go to Kendrick lamar
as there. Oh like, it's so deep and woke and conscious.
I love but it's it's interesting to me that that
(07:05):
it's always seems to be the you know it used
to be back in the day, it used to be
um tribe called Quest. Then when I was in college,
white guys would always hit on me by being like, Hey,
I'm really into tribe called Quests, so one too. I actually, I,
as much as I love Kendrick Lamar, I actually found
that song to be a little bit problematic. That, you know, like,
if you are a woman who you know, let's makeup
(07:28):
on and wants to get her hair alot, like shame, yeah,
and and that shouldn't make you It's just it seems
to me to fall along the lines of a very
traditional understanding of womanhood and female identity. That like, if
you are a woman who wears makeup and wears heels
and you know, straightens your hair or whatever, then you're
somehow less of a natural woman or less of a
(07:50):
real woman if you do these things. And I don't.
I don't buy that at all, because I straightened my
hair and I'm, you know, a real woman. I'm not.
I'm not like you know, it makes it seem if
you can't be smart and with it and progressive if
you do these things. So I already don't like Kendrick
as much as his music is great, does not have
a feminist perspective. We could do a whole episode. We can,
(08:12):
because I love his music as well, but like dang,
it's problematic when it comes to a gender lens. And
I think, and I think as a long time hip
hop fan, I think I have like accepted that that's okay, right,
it's as a feminist, as a black feminist and a
hip hop fan, you do have to say, well, I'm
enjoying there are plenty of songs that I enjoy that
do not have a feminist lens. But I think that
(08:34):
what I get so frustrated with Miley about is that's
I think that is true along including country. And I
think it's interesting how she is like, oh, well, hip
hop is all B words and you know, sex where
but you get what I'm I'm coming from, um and yeah,
(08:57):
and presenting it as though hip hop is the only
genre of music in which that is a thing. And
it just feels like she has learned nothing about black
history in America exactly this entire journey in which she
was called out for, you know, twerking, for her attire,
her using of black culture to make her edgy and
(09:18):
get out of Hannah Montana zone in the public eye,
which works right catapult from the top of the chart.
It's very effective. But you know, all of the critiques
she she was given for using black women's bodies on
stage is almost a prop like she'd never acknowledged or
leaned into the discomfort. When I think Nicki Minaj, we
(09:39):
can come back to that which we talked about in
the hair episode. I think she came up when she said,
what's good Miley? You know she first called her out.
There was that moment that there was no better. That
was one of my top five moments of that year.
Was ground I also love you know, I just talked
about how much I love Nicki Manag all day. But
just as an aside, I love that Nicki Minaj was
had in the same brea as thanking her pastor. She
(10:02):
was like, I want to thank my pastor. But also
back to this view word, I was like, oh my god,
I'm talking about your pastor to call it out Miley
in the same breath that I love it, So I
felt again like, oh man, here's Miley cyrus uh talented
musician who has chops, who has vocal chal and who
(10:24):
I wanted to see get woke Miley, get woke Miley
right being called out on stage by another one of
my favorite artists. I can't say Miley as a favorite artist,
but I really wanted her to be successful in learning.
And it's hard to be called out and get woke
in the public eye. I will admit it, um, But
I was witnessing my Nikki take her down and say
(10:46):
you can't have the good without the bat. You can't
not be interested in the issues that affect the black
community but capitalize on black culture. And it was a
perfect point, but she totally had deer in the headlights
and did not respond to that. Well, yeah, and I
think that that is really My point is that I
do genuinely feel you know, if you're like no one
is forcing you to be woke. It will be nice
(11:08):
if you were woke, but you know, you don't have
to make the choice to say I'm going to immerse
myself in black culture, hip hop culture and that's going
to help my come up. No one is forcing you
to do that. But I do feel like if you
are going to, you know, pay your bills via things
that have been popularized by the black community, it seems
unfair to do that and and just sort of do
(11:29):
it so callously. And I think that when she rebranded
herself as like, oh, I'm going back to country, it
just made it very clear that she saw that as
like a costume or a hat that she could trad
for a while and then walk around in it and
then take it off. And it just seems I don't
know that I've ever seen that happen in such a
stark way with a celebrity totally. And this is a
(11:49):
problem well beyond Miley, as we discussed, there's a big
hit problem in Hollywood and in the pop star creation
engine that really incur his young pop stars, especially when
they're transitioning from girl in the public eye to woman, right,
whether it's Christina Aguilera, Gwen Stefani, who was the other
(12:10):
person we were thinking of who had oh Katy Perry. Yeah.
Did we even talk about cultural approparation with Britney like
one was? I don't think so. But I mean for me,
it's like she was the ultimate when I think about
how a girl yeow woman? Yeah, she was the ultimate
in my mind of like you know, young bubble gum
star who was sort of groomed to be this very young,
(12:32):
innocent person and then clearly sort of struggled with that
uh in the public eye, and then was kind of
vilified for we have a tailor made so, even divorced
from the conversation of cultural appropriation, I think that that
is a tailor made thing. Watching female music, female celebrities,
and even you know, probably one of my favorite favorite
(12:53):
artists of all time on a much smaller scale, dealt
with this, Janet Jackson. People forget that in the early
days of Janet Jackson, she was sort of in her
brother shadow and that she one of her first songs
was called Let's Wait Awhile about how she didn't want
to have sex. She was sort of being groomed to
be this sort of bubblegum, sweet, innocent, like family musician
who was sort of on the Jackson family, you know, lineup.
(13:15):
And then when she made Control, that whole album is
about how she, you know, is an adult. She's taking
control and her music got a lot more risque, and
so did she and you really saw exposing her and yeah,
you really saw her kind of grapple and albeit in
a much sort of more subtle way, grapple with this
(13:36):
trap that I think we set for female celebrities to
get big when they're very young. We watched them grow,
and I think we expect a lot from them in
these ways that sometimes aren't always fair. So I wonder
if we're seeing my struggle with that, right, and I
wish there was a better playbook for how to deal
with that with by listening to your critics. And I mean,
(13:57):
we're dealing with that, right. We got some critics that yeah,
and we it's challenging to not get defensive. And that's
exactly what we saw Miley do. And I want to
bring it back to the issue of race and appropriation
here for a second, um to acknowledge that Miley's not
alone in this. And the incredible editor of Ebony magazine
(14:21):
back in t when Miley was hitting peak Bangers appropriation
phase with her album Bangers, Uh, they put out a
cover article Look at this cover that says America loves
black people, except it crossed out people and wrote culture.
That's exactly and she she penned the editor editor in chief,
(14:43):
Kierana Mayo, penned this great opening letter when she put
out that article, saying, Uh, you know what I've learned
is if you ask black people how they feel about
America's obsession with black culture but the all too common
rejection of black people, you just may tumble down a
rabbit hole of no return. But that's actually a good thing.
(15:05):
We all have something to say about this. I only
hope your individual perspective finds a little validation right here.
And she talks about the overwhelming reminders that America truly
loves what it perceives as black, from baby oil to butts,
colored greens, crunk, but actual black people perhaps not so much.
And it's just I mean, they really went for it
(15:27):
with this cover to talk through this peak moment that
I think Miley was at the forefront of of black
culture being very cool. Yeah, and I think I mean,
as a black woman, I can say that black culture
has been like this is not any thing from like
the the you know, the twenties when it was black.
I mean think back to people like Billie Holiday being
(15:50):
having a headlining act but not being able to use
the front door of the club where she was performing, right,
like not being able to sit where she wanted to
sit after people after white people paid good money to
listen to her sin and I think this has been
something that we have this love hate relationship in America
with blackness, and that's something that has been very clear,
(16:11):
I think, through for for a very long time. And
honestly that that image, it reminds me so much of
a sign I saw at a Black Lives Matter protest
where it's a girl holding aside and it says, if
you kill us all, where will you get your ideas right?
And so again, it's this idea that like America loves
blackness when it's perceived as entertaining, when it's sports, when
(16:33):
it's this, when it's that, but whenever when it's displayed
by white women. Correct. Correct, And I think when it
comes to actual actually investing in blackness and protecting in
a flifting blackness in ways that are more meaningful, we
just as a country just don't. Well, let's take a
quick break, and when we come back, we're going to
dive into this latest transition back to country and why
(16:53):
that's especially problematic, as well as some of the good
things that Miley has been doing, um, some of the
interesting ways in which she's pushed the envelope, uh, and
some of the troubling things that she's been doing. We'll
be back after a quick word from our sponsors, and
(17:16):
we're back, And I want to take a moment to
give Miley some credit for the good work she has
been doing. It's not all bad, and this is part
of the reason why I feel so torn about Miley Cyrus.
The first component is that she is a very talented
singer and performer. There's no doubt about that. And when
people could I feel, I feel like to watch the
(17:38):
Backyard session. I have enjoyed some of her songs. I
will say that she has a great cover of Jolene.
With the Backyard, I was like, oh, she actually doesn't
have a nice voice, right, And there's but that's not enough,
right what being in the public eye in the way
that celebrities are, and being an artistic creator, you are
(17:58):
defined by the choices you make when it comes to
how to not just put your music together, but the
visuals that go along with it. So it's fair for
us to judge. But in her spare time, when she's
not hanging out with all her dogs and animals, which
is another part of my little vegan heart that I
kind of love about Miley, and I wanted to I
wanted to see her succeed because she's big into animals,
(18:21):
um and yoga, but she's also into um starting the
Happy Hippie Foundation, which is actually legitimately very cool. It's
very cool. And I watched her start that via Instagram
back in when she had started the Happy Hippie Foundation,
which is a nonprofit advocacy organization working with to end
(18:42):
really LGBT youth homelessness in Los Angeles. And what I
often see is that celebrities, when they try to start
a cause or a uh you know, advocate for something
they believe in, they go really big national. She went
right to her backyard, which I love that just as great. Yeah,
I mean, I love the idea of hyper low goal
sort of starting and shout out to her because that
(19:03):
actually is very cool. Yeah. And she saw a problem
that she could take action on, and she wanted to
talk about something that a lot of people weren't talking about.
She used her public profile to shine a spotlight on
this very glaring problem that people weren't talking about that
especially effects LGBT youth. She sends Jesse on stage when
(19:26):
she's accepting, you know, she's not even accepting. She sends Jesse,
who's a member or someone who benefited from the work
through the Happy Hippie Foundation to go receive this award
on her behalf at the v m AS when she
was again winning for art that she created by appropriating
Black culture. So there's a lot wrapped up in here.
It's like, I feel so tremendous. You're like, you're doing
(19:50):
great things for LGBT youth, But can we just like
acknowledge that you're still completely appropriating black culture, benefiting from it,
cashing in on it, and not doing any work that
I've seen to specifically address the issues facing the black community.
And that's problematic. It's problematic. And again, I mean I
something that I think I keep coming back to is
(20:12):
that what I wish that, what I wish I saw
her doing more of is messing up gracefully, messing up learning,
saying like, oh, you're right, I did do this, and
oh like, oh I didn't. I hadn't realized that, and
grappling with that in public like she's done that with
pan sexuality. She said it, and she come out saying
I didn't understand my own gender, my own sexuality. I'm
(20:35):
you know, really interested in supporting LGBT rights, which I
think is commendable and great. She talks about weed and
legalization and animal rights, and she's done that in other
parts of her life. So why Miley can't you do that?
I mean with black culture. Yeah, I think I'm the answer,
which is that people get defensive when it comes to race.
(20:55):
So people who otherwise would be progressive, thoughtful, you want
sort of um like willing to own that they don't
know have all the answers, and they might mess up.
I've I've encountered this in my day to day life
quite a bit. The people that you think of as
very um smart people, otherwise smart kind people when it
comes to race, like a wall goes up. And honestly,
(21:17):
it's one of those things that I think there's a
writer that writes about this that when you when someone
feels as if they are being accused of being a racist,
that is something something happens to them in their minds
where they can no longer respond the way they would otherwise.
Like I'm forgetting the writer who writes this, but this
idea that what happens when you call someone a racist
is they have the reaction that they have in their
(21:39):
own minds is a very intense one, and I think
it's just Miley is showcasing that, you know, for a
lot of people, grappling with race, particularly publicly, is difficult.
Isn't that such an American unique? Yeah? You want to
talk about American exceptional and what did you say, exceptionalism?
We are exceptionally bad at grappling. Yeah, Well, clearly it's
baked into our nation's history and it's so clearly still
(22:03):
sticking around. Well, of course, one of our favorite publications,
teen Vogue, covered this issue in a really exceptional way,
in a really great way. So there's this article UM
that I came across by Michael Arson. No, Miley Cyrus
faces rightful backlash in light of past cultural appropriation, and
(22:25):
in it he covers how UM being rightfully criticized. Miley
took to Instagram to explain why it's okay for her
to just drop black culture, drop hip hop, and move
on dot com right because she says what she wants
to gravitate towards more thoughtful conscious hip hop. Yes, she
(22:46):
goes quote, at this point in my life, I'm expanding personally,
slash musically, and gravitating towards more uplifting, conscious rap I again,
I mean as a hip hop fan, is a long
time hip hop fan. It's quotes like that, and again,
just to unpack what I mean, I feel like that
comment sounds very positive, but if you if you unpack
(23:08):
what she's actually saying, it's to me, it's like a
dig on hip hop. Right, you're saying that, you know.
I remember when Miley's I was got on stage and
saying the classic hit my neck, my Back, which is
all about pretty great, pretty intense sex acts. Right, she's asking,
you know, and she's screaming the lyrics, and then she
is and she's working on stage in a new bikini,
(23:31):
and she's pointing the finger at others. And so I
feel as though it's it's hypocritical. It's hypocritical for her
to have said it's fine. It's it's like saying, oh,
it's fine when I do it, you know, And that's
what I don't like. Yeah. Well, here Michael actually follows
up her quote in his article saying, but if you
don't respect the subcultures you borrow from, you are not
so much curious as you are a charlatan. In a
(23:53):
perfect world, black art made by black people would be
just as successful as the art made by a white
artist whose quote inspired by it. In an ideal society,
what black people are vilified for wouldn't be so much
more alluring when performed by white people. Totally. That means
that quote just really sums it up nicely for me,
(24:14):
I think, And again that's something that I have I
think any person of color has seen like play out
in so many different ways. Um, there's a poem I
forget the name of the poem, the poet, but she
talks about how if you you know, if you want
to wear Bundy's, you should also take you know, you
(24:34):
can't just take the good and not the bad. Like
if you're gonna take take wearing a Bundy, and you're
gonna take you know, wearing a Sorry and all of that,
then you should also have to take all of the
heavier baggage that comes along with those things. You can't
just try them on like a costume and not take
the heavier aspects of it or even really understand them
or care about them. Yeah, it's disrespectful, and especially when
(24:56):
when there's such commercial financial success connected to it. So
the talk about her returning to her country roots. I
read the full interview she gave on Billboard, uh, through Billboard,
whatever you wanna call it, And I just wrote here
in the notes, I was like, this is some serious
all lives matter stuff right here, because what she's doing
(25:17):
is similar to me in saying all lives, all lives, bladder,
all lives matter to folks in the Black Lives Matter movement,
and she's saying um in the article the the author rights.
Cyrus was first inspired to reach beyond her circle of
quote outspoken liberals and cultivate country fans and red staters
(25:40):
in ten when she began as a coach on nbc
Stalwart Talent competition The Voice quote. I like talking to
people that don't agree with me, but I don't think
I can do that in an aggressive way, said Cyrus.
I don't think these people are going to listen to
me when I'm sitting there in nipple pasties, you know.
And I just had so much. There's some which to that,
(26:01):
which is like, of course we want to talk to
people with who disagree. How about the black people who
have been critiquing you, Like, why are you listening intently
and empathically to the folks who you know, we're we're
She talks explicitly in this article about Trump fans and
Trump supporters, but you don't give black communities that same
(26:23):
benefit of the doubt. I see this on such a
on both a micro and a macro level, and that
that has been reflected in our in our cultural dynamic
in so many ways, right, Like, why is it that
after election, after the election, we all went through this
thing where it was like, how about having a little
empathy for Trump supporters? And I am not suggesting that
we should not have that Trump supporters are not deserving
of empathy. How my question is why is it that
(26:45):
we have to let when it comes to largely white
audiences that we are very quick to suggest, oh, we
need to be empathetic of their of their you know,
situations and all of that. But we do not afford
all people that privilege. Right when when young, unarmed black
people are killed by the police, immediately they're like, well,
he was arrested for marijuana, but nine years ago, you'd
(27:07):
be the judge, right, Like he worked a little shady, right,
And so what my question is, I would be all
about a more empathetic society if we're if we're champion
championing that society for all, not just for white people.
And I think right now empathy is reserved for whites.
I genuinely believe that, on a large scale, most of
America does not believe the black community to be deserving
(27:28):
of any kind of empathy that you know. And I
think it's reflected and how we talk about these things.
I think, you know, how poor white voters are, you know,
the working class or low income or whatever, and that
we just think about those same people economically when they
are black. The conversation is very different. And so I
(27:49):
just see that reflected all in all the ways. I
am nodding vigorously over here. What's funny is it? Before
we recorded this, I was like, guys, don't let me
get too political, And here I am. And another thing, Well,
it's hard not to. I mean, here she goes. Listen,
Miley herself says, my record is political, but you can't
really say that because then the news headline is, you know,
(28:11):
this is a political record, and then I'm the Dixie
Chicks and I'm getting my album smashed in the streets
and that's not what I want. But telling no, she
wants commercial success just like bangers. She wants people to
love her again. She misses her white friends, she misses
he Honestly, the cover of this article should have just said,
Miley cyrus Colin, I'm white again. I miss being I
(28:34):
missed my being adored by my white country fans. She
goes quote, I'm down for hanging with Blake Shelton on
the voice. I actually want to take advantage of the
fact that he's there, Like how telling is that? First
of all, and then his fans don't really take me
seriously as a country artist. One. I haven't given them
that music. But listen, I've got a tattoo of Johnny
Cash's autograph he gave me when I was a little
(28:56):
girl that says, I'm in your corner. Dolly Parton is
my you know, god mother. And the fact that country
music fans are scared of me that hurts me. And
I'm just thinking, oh, poor Mile. She has a tiny
faction of an experience of what it's like to be
black in America and and feared and not so embraced
by white country fans. And that's what it comes down
(29:18):
to for me as a black woman. I can't just
take this, put this on, take this off. But she
believes that she should be able to, you know, sit
with the black kids at lunch and be fine and
be accepted, and then sit with the country kids at
lunch and be fine and be accepted. And this idea,
I mean, she says that herself, I have not given
country music listeners country music, yet she still feels like
(29:38):
they they should be like there and to their support.
That's what I think that bugs me so much about that.
And then she goes on to say, quote, it's mind
boggling to me that there was even a controversy around
me having black dancers. That became a thing where people
said I was taking advantage of black culture and with
Mike Will made it what the you know, and then
f she says that wasn't true. Those were the dancers
(30:01):
I liked. And so this is a perfect example of
Miley not actually hearing what our critics have to say,
of Miley not getting curious around the issues facing black
Americans today that have given her the commercial success, like
the culture from which she has derived commercial success. She's
clearly not listening and she's just getting defensive, like you said,
(30:23):
And I think, I mean, as someone who has had
plenty of like online discussions about race online arguments about race.
I see that so clearly. How she twists it that,
like people were not yelling at you because you had
black dancers. You're misrepresenting what they are saying and you
don't get it. And I do think it's possible for
celebrities who borrow a lot from black culture to do
(30:45):
it thoughtfully, Like I look at one of my favorite
musicians and also shout out to my mom because I
just I spent a weekend at home and I found
out that my mom has a mild not even mild,
has a pretty big crush on Bruno Mars, my mom
and she was like, Mars so handsome. I was like,
are you in love with Brute? Are you gonna leave
dad for Bruno Mars's happening? But Bruno Mars, I think
is someone who it's not black, he very much, you know,
(31:09):
he founds like a black R and B singer from
you know, the nineties, and he's someone who has a
lot of thoughtful things to say about black culture. He
very much is explicit and saying like, yeah, I respect
black culture so much. And so he in an interview
said when you say, when you say black music, understand
that you're talking about rock, jazz, R and B, reggae, funk, doop,
(31:30):
hip hop, and motown black people created at all. Being
Puerto Rican even saw some music stems back to the
motherland of Africa. So in my world, black music means
everything to me. It's what gives America. It's swag, and
I think it's No one is saying you can't have
black backup dancers. No one is saying you can't borrow
from hip hop, from jazz, from funk, from doop, from
go go, from all of that. But you just have
(31:52):
to do like if you're if you're paying your rent
being things that black folks built, you need to It's
worth it to do it thoughtfully, to do it, you know, carefully,
and I think shout out to Bruno Mars for priding
that template of how you can do that. And I
just feel like, as a white woe, I'm looking at
Miley Ands and like, come on, Miley, woke it up
(32:14):
a little bit. Don't be it, don't like, don't tarnish
all white Wood's reputation. She totally is bringing. She's in
my haircut. There was so many ways I wanted her
to do this right, and she just time and time
again has criticized the critiques instead of like actually listening
to what's going on there. And so we're gonna get
into a lot more all things Miley. But after a
(32:34):
quick word from our sponsor, and we're back, and there's
one more little nugget of Miley that it's just too
kind of troubling and weird to not mention, which is
her video for baby Talk. Right. I don't know if
(32:54):
anybody saw this, because this is that peak cringe Miley moment.
I think the whole world collective just looked away when
she got in a giant diaper and a baby bonnet
and a pascifire and rolled around and grinded up in
a crib for an entire music video baby Talk. I
have to say I had not seen this video when
I pulled it up right before the episode, I shrieked,
(33:18):
if you've ever seen that episode of Dirty Rock where
one of the characters, Frank, has that hot baby or
sexy baby skins, and it's like a woman wearing a
plastic baby dog head but also wearing a BAKKINI that
was immediately what I thought of. It was so and
so trigger warning here for anyone who's dealt with these
issues in a really big way probably should have said
(33:40):
that a couple of seconds ago. But this is like
pervert bait, right. We're talking about the sexualization of children
in her video, and I don't think there was enough
of a public backlash against the explicit hyper sexualization of
children and babies. And it also came up for me
again when I was watching her brand new video for Malibu,
(34:02):
and maybe it's just me. I don't want to be
I don't want to body shame Miley Cyrus for being
fin or having a childlike body, but there is an
innocence and this goes back to the dichotomy we're talking
about right at the opening of being a pop star,
a female pop star in America today means, you know, uh,
fluctuating between the innocent Brittany of the schoolgirl era with
(34:26):
a little shirt tied up, which is a pretty hyper
sexualized sixteen year old high school student that we're all
like thinking is super hot to eighteen year old woman
you know now can be a legal sex office exactly.
And so Miley's version was that can't be tamed. And
(34:48):
now she's having this like I feel like she's coming
full circle trying to get out of hip hop by
going back to this child like freakishly child like, like
maybe a little disturbed try like. And I think I
think that you really hit the nail on the head
in terms of how female pop stars especially are when
(35:09):
they start out very young and innocent, like they we
want to watch them. We're first of all, we're actively
rooting for them to fail. I think of the culture,
We're like, yeah, I can't wait till she's you know,
shaving her head that I don't know. We we we
I'm so guilty of it. So I'm every all these
young successful or like early successful Disney stars, You're like, yeah,
(35:34):
you I think we maybe we don't. We're uncomfortable with
the sort of squeaky clean im injury they project, and
so we when they kind of go rogue, it's fascinating.
But yeah, I think I'm old enough to remember back
when she was still squeaky clean and there was like
pictures of her hitting a bong and things like that,
(35:55):
and it was a huge controversy. And I just think
that she was presented with the choice of do like,
do I stay sort of childlike? Do I grow up?
And she just leaned super hard in the other direction.
I'm part of me can't kind of blame her. Well,
it worked for her, let's just acknowledge how commercially successful
she became, but in doing so, she isolated the nice
white country folk who she had as fans. And speaking
(36:17):
of hitting the bond, now she's bragging in her Billboard
article about ditching marijuana and going back to this innocent,
clean Miley, and so it just seems like this grasping
at a pass that she can't you can't reclaim that. Okay,
that's not gonna work totally, And there's this infantilizing component
to it that I think was evident in the most
(36:38):
pedophile like bait video I've ever seen in my life,
Babe Talk, and even in Malibu, which is sort of
like clean, innocent, very childlike imagery around And maybe I'm
the only one who see use it this way, but like,
I think we're basically like rooting on this very very
childlike version of Miley's body being actualized and portrayed in
(37:01):
this like sweet innocent, jungly, you know, on the kid
on the beach type way. She's uncomfortable, and I think
what's clear to anyone who saw that image of her
like in a desert on in a flowy white dress,
what what what she was trying to project? I think
it was very clear, like what method she was trying
to send out and what we're supposed to take away
(37:22):
from that image when you look at the image of her,
you know, working on stage in a nude body suit
and this image of her wearing a long flowing way
down very visional, you know, And I think it's very
clear what we're being asked to take away from images
like that. And isn't it sad that those are the
two tropes that women in the public, either one or
(37:42):
the other, one or the other. You can't be of
multifaceted human being. You're either the virgin or the vixen.
It's just so I mean, in some ways it's kind
of sad. But like she's got the I'm looking at
the video now, she got the little pig tails, Like
it's almost like Mariah Carey esque, like wildflowers. It's the
pig deals. That's what really did it for me. She
she's got two little braids and she's got pigtails. And
(38:04):
to me, maybe I'm judging pigtails too much here, But
there's this like kind of childlike innocence with the balloons
and the goofy dancing, and I just think it just
feels like pedophile bait. Am I wrong? I'm I don't
know if you're wrong, but I don't like this is
this video is like legitimately making me a very very
(38:27):
I don't quite know what it is about it that
I find so I just strange. I just left thinking, Oh, Miley,
and that's I think that's where we have to leave it,
like little girl skipping through the skipping through the fields
with her doggie. It's just like, please take me back country,
you know, please love me again. I'm just a little girl,
(38:47):
and it's got that like innocent thing to it. But
maybe maybe I'm reading way too much into this, y'all.
I have not seen writing on like the pedophile angle
of Miley Cyrus. I haven't seen a lot of cultural critique,
especially even there was a little bit on the baby
Talk video. But y'all, this is just another way in
which I feel like in her quest to be an
(39:09):
independent creative person, and I totally respect the endeavor, the
intent behind going your own route, not having a hyper
managed you know, creative control, like taking your own creative
control as an artist. But if you're going to borrow
from black culture the way with Miley Cyrus is done.
If you're gonna run around in a diaper in the
way the Miley Cyrus has done, you better be cognizant
(39:33):
of more than just how the homeless LGBT youth of
Los Angeles need your help, or the pets need your help,
or the pets, Yeah, how about black people. Let's start there.
I mean, I not I don't want to trash Miley
because I agree with you, Like I remember when I
saw her on the Vienna Is a friend of mine,
a co worker said, Oh, it was such a weird
(39:54):
kind of like interesting, weird performance. I almost just want
to give her like a box of Riot Girl CDs
at a box, you know, a box of like interesting
music to help her along this path that she's on
so she gets to where she needs to go. And
I just, you know, I think for me, the kind
of end all be all of all this is that
it's probably it's very difficult to grapple with all of
(40:16):
this in the public eye. Definitely get woke in the
public eye. But there are models for people who are
doing it right and there is a right way to
do it, and I just I feel like she's doing
it wrong constantly. Yeah, and this part, I mean, let's see.
I want to hear from our country fans. Are you
embracing Miley with open arms? Is this working for you?
I have a feeling it's not. And how about those
(40:38):
who fell in love with Miley of the hip hop genre?
How do you feel about her not only ditching the
genre but also trashing it on her way out the door? Um?
And let's talk about Miley and LGBT advocacy and her
coming out as pan sexual. Let's talk about Miley and race.
Let's talk about Miley and the somewhat infantilizing of her.
(41:00):
Is a coal appearance in a weirdly sexual way? Does
that bother you as much as it bothers me? And
how do we how do we like? How do we
move forward from here? I want to champion women who
are navigating the creative process because it's not easy getting
wogan and easy either, but doing so in the public eye.
I just feel like, aren't there better ways for us
(41:21):
to help help help each other sort of stay awoke,
be woke and stay awoke, So with that, we want
to hear from you any any last word I think,
I think all right? So how can how can our
lovely ladies uh hit us up on so we didn't
we need to hear it from y'all. Um. You can
hit us up on the Graham at Stuff Mom Never
(41:42):
Told You, on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and you
can shoot us a good old fashioned email. Tell us
about your canail us Mom Stuff at how stuff works
dot com. Four
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