Role Overload: A National Crisis

Rounding out the conversation on role overload, E&B interview author and think tank policy wonk, Brigid Schulte on the national crisis that is worker overwhelm, and uncover how government can help.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Emily and you're listening to stuff bomb
never told you Now Today to round out our series
on role overload, we are excited to be really drilling

(00:27):
down into systemic solutions. Already, we've talked to experts like
Tiffany Doofu about the challenges around working motherhood, Liz O'Donnell
when it comes to being a working daughter, and Julia
Carpenter all about how guess what single women want work
life balance too. Today, I'm really excited to bust down

(00:47):
this myth that roll overload is a personal problem. It's
not a personal problem. You can't life hack your way
out of burnout culture. Right. We exist in a country
and in a workplace culture where the norm is overwhelmed. Absolutely,
Perhaps it would be possible to break your own self

(01:08):
out of burnout culture if you lived in a vacuum
and didn't live in society. But I don't think any
of us is in that situation. We live in the world,
you work in workplaces. Everyone has a role in beating
this thing together and figuring it out. I think so
often on this show we're championing how a lot of
these issues we bring up actually have policy and government solutions,
and so I'm so excited to talk through what that
can look like today exactly. And I have to point

(01:30):
out my own bias here because I make a living
at bossed Up talking through personal solutions to our burnout
culture and really saying like, Okay, we operate in systems
of oppression that without systemic change and policy change and
organizational change will hold us back. But here's what you
can do about it right now. I like to say,

(01:52):
you know, we've got to play the cards we've been
dealt while we change the game. But I never go
into those conversations or even those sort of programs that
I run, pretending like we can solve this on our own.
It's one thing to say, play the cards you've been
dealt while we changed the game. Today we're talking about
what it looks like to change the game. We're talking
with the one and only Bridget Shalty, author of a phenomenal,

(02:17):
heady historical contextual book called Overwhelmed, Work, Love, and Play
when No One Has the Time, which really brings her
journalistic experience to light. When you read her book, you
can tell it was written by a BOSS journalist, because
Bridget Shalty was with the Washington Post for almost twenty years, um,
and she really brings that kind of rigor to this

(02:39):
particular book, which walks through a historical context of how
the hell we got here as a country, how overwhelmed
became the norm, and what we can do about it.
And now she is the director of the Better Life
Lab with our pal and Marie Slaughter, friend of the show,
who were big fans of at New America, the Fink
Tank here in d C. The Better Life Lab, which

(03:01):
aims to find and highlight solutions to a better way
of working, to better define gender equity to include both
the advancement of women and the changing role of men,
and to pursue policy solutions that better fit the way
people and families work and live to enable all people
to thrive. I love that so much because it doesn't

(03:21):
just pigeonhold this as a women's issue exactly. Really highlights
the fact that all of us, men, women, and everyone
in between has a role to play, as do bosses, governments, policymakers, advocates.
We're all this together, exactly. I'm a huge fan of
this context that Amory Slaughter really introduced in her book
Unfinished Business, in which she talks about caregiving and breadwinning

(03:43):
as equally important components that make our society work. So
how do we deal with that? In the Better Life
Lab led by Brigitialty, another accomplished, amazing journalist author overall
badass like, they've brought these two powerhouses together to come
up with real policy solutions. And we're so honored to
have you joining us here today, Bridget thank you so

(04:03):
much for being here. Yeah, I'm so happy to be here.
Thanks so much for having me so. I first came
across your work with the fabulous New York Times bestseller
book of yours, Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play When no
one has the time, and in it I really appreciated
the historical context you gave into how we got to

(04:24):
where we are as this hyper connected, always on, overwhelmed
work culture that feels very American American exceptionalism in the
least awesome way. My question for you is how unique
is the overwhelmed work culture here in the United States
as opposed to elsewhere. Well, I think this is a

(04:46):
really important question. You know, it's clearly talking about American exceptionalism.
It is something that we pioneered here, this sense that
the ideal worker always works and it's always on and
always available, and that they're the best workers, and that
burnout is almost a badge of honor, you know. And
you see that in all sorts of fields that you know,

(05:08):
I've written about the medical profession, and you know, you
talk to some doctors and they'll be like, yeah, we
have this iron man culture. You know that you're gonna
gonna run a marathon and then you're gonna swim to
a couple of miles and you're gonna bike forever. And
and yet then you look at the flip side of that,
and one out of every two doctors in the United
States is showing at least one symptom of burnout. And

(05:30):
I don't know about you, but that's not somebody I
want to be like operating on me or you know,
delivering a baby or doing brain surgery or trying to
figure out what that tumor means. So there are some
real costs to this sense of always being on and
valuing that um I think, you know, when you look
at other countries, it's interesting people say, oh, it's all technology.

(05:51):
Technology has sped things up, and that's the really the culprit,
and it really isn't because when you look at what
happened in the United States, we'd be agan to really
value and reward long hours in about the nineteen eighties,
so that was long before we had iPhones, and you know,
people were searching the internet at all times. So this
is really a trend that started before technology, and technology

(06:16):
has only increased and sort of added to it and
and sort of sent us all into this kind of
like overdrive spiral. But I think where we really need
to look is that, uh, you know, the way that
we work could be imported into other into other economies. Uh,
you know, America, the United States is very powerful culturally, um,

(06:39):
you know, and this is sort of we like to
say that, you know, we're the best, right the American
economy and everybody should work like this American pirson Oh
my god. Yeahs So, so, I mean there is some
danger that, um, you know, that there's always on culture
added to technology will be exported. There are certainly some

(06:59):
signs of that in certain places. And yet on the
flip side of that, what's very interesting is that when
you look at productivity data, you know, again not just
sort of like the nice to have soft squashy anecdotal stories,
but really hard data about productivity. And you look at
hourly productivity. So the United States, we work really long

(07:20):
hours and that's where a lot of our productivity comes from.
But if you look at productivity per hours work, so
how good are each one of those hours? We're actually
not in top In the top runs the countries that
are most productive per hour our countries like Norway. And
what's fascinating about that is that you know the countries

(07:41):
that work even longer than the United States, the two
countries that work longer hours, or Japan and South Korea,
they are actually the least productive per hour of all
the sort of all the advanced economies by different measures
of I, L O and O, E, C D have
measured to have done these internet measurements, and I think

(08:01):
what's interesting in some of my reporting when you go
to countries that are incredibly productive per hour and yet
do not work long hours, it's because their culture is
very different and they don't value long work hours in
the way that we do in the United States. They
don't see that as a badge of honor, and instead
what's fascinating is they see it as a sign of

(08:22):
inefficiency and the question is you know, you know, in
the United States, if you say I worked so late
last night, or I spent the night at my desk,
I was answering emails to one in the morning, there's
this sort of aren't I amazing? Aren't I dedicated? You know?
And there's this kind of like pad on the back
that you get. But if you if you make those
kinds of comments and countries like Norway or Denmark or

(08:43):
over some of the other places that are as productive
per hours the United States, but work thirty seven point
five hours a week, um, they'll say like, well, what's
wrong with you? Why couldn't you get your work done
on time? So the culture is very different. I wonder, Bridget,
do you feel this is different for millennials at all,

(09:03):
because this whole idea of working smarter not harder seems
to be this like trope I see in millennial culture.
See I almost think it's the opposite. I think that
a lot of millennials, because we came up in times
where you have to kind of struggle to find a job.
I actually see a lot of people in my same
age really giving too much of themselves to their work
and kind of getting caught up in this culture of

(09:25):
overwork and burnout, and I almost have seen the opposite
where I think it's because we sort of had to
find jobs in this tricky, you know climate. We say like, oh,
I'll be on email at all times. Oh I'll you know,
push myself, I'll never work from home, blah blah blah,
because we feel like we have to. I think when
it comes to millennials, folks who I see kind of

(09:46):
being smarter and saying, no, only take a job where
I can work remotely. I'll only take a job that's
more flexible, those are the ones that I feel like
are a lot happier. Yeah. I used to really chafe
at what I felt were arbitrary standards for professor ftionalism,
like being in the office at a certain hour and
staying until a certain hour. I really rebelled as a

(10:08):
young professional graduating into the recession, being held to these
standards of just you know, this person next to me
is rewarded just for being at their desk, despite the
fact that I achieved everything he achieved today in the
first hour of being present at work. And I really
could not last in a workplace that was like that.

(10:29):
I was so vehemently opposed to to presence over efficiency.
Well along those lines, in terms of presence over performance,
that really is what the American culture, the work culture
values right now. And in a large part it's because
it's really difficult. We have not figured out how to
measure knowledge work. When is knowledge work good work? Um?

(10:53):
You know, And that's something that um, you know, management
consultants were warning about, you know, back in the seventies
when they were you know, thinking about, oh, we're moving
into this knowledge work culture. Well, what does that mean
when you don't have a nine to five job or
you don't have the whistle going off and you haven't
hit your targets for a number of widgets. And it's
something that you know, even as just a few years ago,

(11:15):
there's a big study that said we haven't figured this
out still. So because we don't know how to value
and just knowledge work, when is it good enough? When
are you done? Um? You know, then we we default
to the old way of measuring good performance, which is
simply being there being a butt in the chair. And
so part of what's going on is that we're at

(11:38):
this real pivot point where we've kind of got these
clashing old and new cultures and it's it's really driving
all of us crazy. And I would say it is
also driving millennials crazy. So there's a couple of things
about millennials that the surveys show that they really what
they want in time for work that's great, but also

(11:58):
and meaningful, but also time for their life. You know,
it's not that unusual. It's exactly what Gen X has wanted.
It's exactly what Baby boomers had wanted. The difference what
the surveys shows. The difference is that millennials are willing
to ask for it, and they're willing to walk away
if they don't get it. So that's said, you know,
so so there there are differences there in terms of

(12:21):
of sort of an expectation, if you will, that work
doesn't have to be nuts, that you can work smart.
You know, that you don't have to just do what
people have always done just because they've always done it,
which I think is healthy. But at the same time
you're absolutely right that, uh, there is a disconnect between
the willingness to to walk away and the sort of

(12:44):
you know, the belief in the importance of having work
life balance and on the other hand, working in cultures
and getting sucked into them and wanting to succeed and
seeing that the only way to do it is to
work like a maniac. So in some of the work
that I've been doing, it's really clear and it's more
painful to be a millennial who overworks because you're expected

(13:06):
to be a slacker, and so you're working all of
these crazy hours and really really living up to these
ideal worker notions. Um, and you also feel like you're
sort of betraying your own principles and your own beliefs.
And uh So it's actually a very painful thing for
many millennials, and they're really caught up in it, and

(13:27):
I think it's um, hopefully out of that pain, something
good will come. Well, that's something I found so fascinating
that resonated throughout your piece for Fast Company called why
your Best life Hats Still come up short. This idea
that not only do we have these work products that
are visible, right if your boss sends an all staff
email at ten o'clock and you respond at ten o

(13:47):
five at night, people can see that and they make
conclusions about what kind of employee you are and how
much you care about your job. As an employee. You
naturally want to reflect your boss's you know, care about
the job that you guys are doing together, and so
you may feel obligated to respond to that email right away.
But when you do, that actually sets up the cycle

(14:09):
wherein you are now expect that that's the expectation that
you are setting. And so it's just like what you said,
it's this cultural thing where you become a cog in it.
You get pulled into it, and you don't want to
be that person who was saying, wait, this is dumb.
We could be working better if we were all at home,
or like, we could be working better if we didn't
have ten meetings a day. We could be working better

(14:30):
if we just got our work done during the day
and didn't spend the evening time, you know, collaborating over
emails and just you know, staying up at night. We
could be working more efficiently. It doesn't actually feel like
that is something that is rewarded. And I think it's
because you know, you see the person who hits in
on that email. You see the person whose butt is
in the chair at seven thirty in the morning and
it is there untill nine o'clock at night. Those are

(14:51):
all the work products that are visible and concrete and
tangible and the other things you might not see at all.
So in Emily's example where she did all of the
thing that her deskmate did, you know, from home, before
she even got there or whatever, people can't see that.
All they know is it's getting done. But people can
see him sitting in his chair exactly well. And that

(15:12):
was the funny thing that peace, you know, because it
was sort of about, you know, really solving this as
bigger than you. All the life hacks in the world,
I mean, they're great life hacks, and you can be
more productive, and there are certain things that you can do,
but to answer this question, it is not all up
to you. And I have to say I don't think
this was one of the more popular pieces on Fast
Company because everybody wants like the that they want the

(15:35):
life pack and they want it to be easy, and
it's not easy because we are we human beings are
social creatures, and we are driven to conform to the
social norm. And right now, you work in a place
where the social norm is that it values over work.
You know, you are just wired to want to fit
in and want to to perform and and go sort

(15:58):
of quote unquote above and beyond. And so that's why
it's so important for leaders, middle managers and leaders to
not only uh, you know, talk the talk, but walk
the walk. And I have to be perfectly honest. I
came from uh, you know, I've been I called myself
a recovering workaholic. And you know, I was in daily
newspapers for most of my career. And then when I

(16:18):
left and I came to New America where I'm directing
the Better Life lab right. Our whole job is to
try to make work in life better for people. Um,
And I was sending those emails late at night, and
because I would have an idea, It's like, oh, this
is a great idea. I want to share this with
the team. This is so exciting. I need to get
it out of my head. And I got to clear it.
And then, you know, I was only thinking of myself.

(16:38):
And what I was not realizing is that when I
sent out that email, just as you described, I was
actually creating stress and cognitive load on my team because
they had to decide, Well, she says that we don't
have to answer emails at night, but she's the boss,
and well should we and we want to make sure
that she thinks that we're doing a good job. And
we all are dedicated and we're passionate about this too,
and do I need to answer us? And even going

(17:01):
through the anticipation of a was I gonna send an email?
B did, they had to like spend time thinking about
whether to respond to it. That takes up cognitive bandwidth,
That actually takes you out of the moment. It puts
your brain in this kind of vigilant mode. And there's
actually research that shows that we are more stressed out
by anticipating late night emails from our boss and actually

(17:24):
getting them. And so I have to say I have
a great team. And they took my laptop from me
the next day and installed Boomerang, and they said, we
understand you need to get these ideas out of your
head because then you know, then your mind is clear,
but don't send it to us. You know, when we
want our minds to be thinking about something else. And
so now I am trying. I try to be very careful,

(17:46):
and I'm not perfect yet, you know, That's why I
say I'm in the recovery mode. But now I tried,
if I get something, I have an idea. I want
to get it out of my head. I schedule it,
I send it out, but I but I, you know,
I get it out of my head, but I schedule
it so out during work hours. Um. And I think
that just even small little nudges like that can make
a big difference, because now my team knows when they

(18:08):
leave work they are really off, you know. And most
of us are not firefighters. Most of us are not
e er doctors, you know, most knowledge workers. The world
is not going to fall apart, and nobody's going to
die if we don't answer the email that evening. And
yet we all have this kind of like breathless feeling
that that somehow we're so important and our job is

(18:29):
so amazing that we can't not do it. And yet
once you once you start creating those boundaries, and once
you start creating more space for other things in your life,
the irony is your work actually gets better because you're fresher,
because you're able to make more connections, because you're not
so burned out and just constantly in this like powering
through slogging mode like you know so many people are.

(18:53):
I mean, it just blows my mind that the gallop
polls every year show that, like Cluse, the of America,
can workers say they're disengaged at work. You know, that
is not the kind of workforce. So that's not the
kind of human capital that's going to get you, you know,
the latest and greatest and coolest innovation or efficiency. I'm

(19:14):
so glad that you brought up the point about you
like working in news. You know, I'm a former journalist
and twenty four hour news cycle. Now I work in politics,
and I think, just like you were saying, there's this
temptation to believe, oh my god, if I don't answer
this email right away, the world is gonna end, something's
gonna happen, it's going to be a crisis. In reality,
most times that's not the case. We've just internalized that

(19:35):
that's the case. I almost feel like it's this weird
kind of narcissism that we're so important, Heaven forbid we
not be on email for five minutes. But I also
know that working in journalism and working in media and
working in politics, there are going to be times where
there is legitimately a crisis where you have to get
out of bed and answer that email. But not everything
is that crisis. And so if it's comic kind of

(19:56):
like that boy who Cried Wolf thing, where if we
treat every email like it's urgent, if we treat everything
like it's a it's an emergency that you have to
answer right away, no matter what time it is when
that critical thing does happen, where you need to be
on all cylinders either A you're not gonna pick it
seriously because everything is a crisis and when everything is
a crisis, nothing's a crisis. Or be you're gonna be

(20:17):
so tired having dealt with that last crisis that wasn't
really a crisis that you're not going to be able
to really be on all cylinders to actually deal with
it in an efficient way. Yeah, that is true. That's true,
so true. And I feel like this is such a
meta conversation for me because I like you, Bridget, I
love a good life hack, and you know, I obviously

(20:38):
see the systemic forces at play, but I also, you know,
play into millennials desire to advocate and ask for more
and help them get the sustainability that they're craving in
my line of work, but internally at boss Up, we
onboard our staff members with a clear set of norms
for when we expect work happening and when we expect

(20:59):
work to not be happening. And I regularly have to
tell my team members who are enthusiastic and excited. I
just had a conversation with my staff member Emmy last Friday,
who said, Okay, I'll get this draft to you over
the weekend. I said, Emmy, no, you will not, and
she went on a camping trip. I was like, do
not get me a draft of this over the weekend.
For us, what's really been helpful is deciphering between what

(21:22):
is important and versus what is urgent, and really understanding
those two differences. Yeah, that's really important. I think. The
other thing to remember, um, you know, there's been really
interesting research on productivity and you know, how how can
you really push yourself? And just like you say, the
research shows that you really can push yourself, you know,

(21:44):
if you've got a deadline or there's some emergency, you know,
but really for a short finite period of time, you know,
for really no more than a couple of weeks, and
then after that, your your performance really starts to degrade.
And you know, over the over the course of maybe
six weeks, you really would have been much better off
if you just kept working at a reasonable pace. You know,

(22:06):
it's six weeks, you know, you are so burned out
that you've actually lost any of those productivity gains from
from pushing yourself so hard for a couple of weeks.
So there really is sort of a cliff you can
fall off. So, yes, you can push yourself. There's always
going to be some kind of emergency and you do,
you know, and people will need to be all hands
on deck, but it is not every single knife. Let's

(22:28):
take a quick break and when we come back, let's
continue the conversation around what companies and organizations can do
to make life and work better and more efficient for
all of us. We'll be right back after a quick
word from our sponsors. And we're back, and we are

(22:51):
sitting down with the incredible author, think tank director of
the Better Life Lab at New America, Bridget Chulza. Bridget,
thanks so much for joining as today. Oh it's great
to be here. Thanks so much for having me. So
we've been talking about what you've done as a boss,
what I've done at my company, and what we as

(23:11):
Americans really desire when it comes to sustainability and efficiency
at work, whether you're a millennial or not. So what
can these employers Because we know more and more employers
are getting on board, at least in name, with this
concept of sustainability and efficiency because we know, right, happier,

(23:32):
healthier employees are better for the bottom line. So how
can companies make roll overload easier for all of us? Well,
I guess the first thing I would say is, I'm
not sure that companies are really convinced, yeah, that having
happier and healthier employees is better for the bottom line.
There's plenty of reports that show that that's true. There's

(23:55):
plenty of studies that show that having more women in
leadership and management actually may to your you know, boost
performance in the bottom line. And yet look at where
we are. We're really stuck. We're stuck in people over working,
we're stuck in women being kind of stuck and trapped
in middle management, and only a few kind of you know,
clawing their way to the top. So I think that

(24:17):
it's really important just to to understand that while there
is good data out there, I don't think it's really set,
you know, I don't think it's sunk in and that
a big part of the reason why I've been doing
a lot of work with some behavioral scientists and really
trying to understand more human nature more. And you know,
change is really hard for human beings. Uh, we have

(24:39):
something called status quo bias. We're just because we're doing
it and it's for familiar we tend to keep doing it.
And I think that that, you know, it's it's so apparent.
You can look at that and in so many different
arenas and see that. So for workplaces, for organizations, for teams, Uh,
you know, even for individual rules, it's really hard to

(25:01):
break out of that status quo bias. Well, this is
the way we've always done things, and this is the
way we should keep doing them. You know, even in
the face of really good data that you should have
more women in leadership, that you should have better work
life balance, you know that you will work better if
you work smarter and you're not burning out all time.
So I think one of the things to do for

(25:21):
for leaders is to think about the status quo as
just one of a number of options that so that
you kind of move out of that, Well, this is
the way we've always done it, and and so you
almost think about it as scenario planning, it's like, Okay,
could keep doing it this way. And then when you
when you start putting the status quo against other models,

(25:42):
you begin to see all of the costs. You know,
people say things like, oh, paid family, we can't do it,
it's so expensive, it costs too much. And yet if
you put the current reality is just one scenario, then
what you have to do is start accounting for the
costs of not doing it. Have to account predict costs
of increased stress and attrition and turnover and you know,

(26:06):
disengagement and unhappy is uh and all of the things
that you don't account for now because this is just
the way that we've all done stuff. So I think
that's the first thing is to recognize that change is
hard and that we do have the status quo bias,
and so that we almost have to think are we
have to design around that? And so so some of

(26:26):
the things that that that we're suggesting companies do is
really look at flexibility but adopt it as something that's
a default for everyone, rather than think about it as
an accommodation for a mother or a woman or a caregiver,
because that just ends up creating such stigma and bias,
and that's how you create the money track, and that
when you realize that good work can be done, um,

(26:49):
you know, based more on people's bio rhythms if you will, uh,
that you create flexibility that does not require a reason,
and that you open it up for men and women
and it just becomes the way you work. That that
goes a long way to creating systems that are fairer,
creating lifestyles that are actually healthy, heer, and the creating

(27:12):
work that's better. Uh, and also opening up possibility for
much more gender equality, which is really stymied right now. Well,
that was another aspect of your peace Profast company that
I found so telling. This idea that oftentimes things like
flexibility can become sort of gifts quote unquote that employers
give to their employees, not something that actually makes everybody's

(27:34):
job better and more efficient. This idea that oh, if
your boss lets you work remotely, or it gives you
more flexibility or you know, is more flexible with how
you work best, they're doing you some kind of a favor.
And I think it really is about cultural change, where
we understand that we are as an organization, as a
team going to make choices about how we work best.

(27:54):
And I also think it's really telling that I completely
agree with you from what you said before that I
don't think all companies are moving towards this idea of
happier employees makes makes for better work. It's interesting because
I've worked in some of the most progressive, cutting edge
organizations around, and they're still sort of caught up in
this old school notion of what it means to be
successful impolite. These are organizations that, for any other choice

(28:18):
they make, it's a data driven choice. They look at evidence,
they test things out. The worst thing you could say
is we do this because we've always done it. That's
like a no no to say in these organizations. Yet
they will have that day and night when it comes
to how they're planning a campaign, how they're rolling something
out for a launch. When it comes to how they're
working their own people and managing their own teams, it's well,

(28:40):
what are we gonna do if the whole team isn't
here for the meeting and people call in? Or how
can we let people work remotely? How can we be
flexible people. It's like this weird way where in there
so forward thinking and data driven, an evidence based when
it comes to how they're running their business, but when
it comes to how they're running their teams, that all
goes out the window. Yeah, that kind of ognitive dissonance

(29:00):
I've heard of a lot, And I'm biased because I
only work with companies that are coming to us because
they are on board with this, at least philosophically, and
want to know how to make it happen. So I
don't know. I think tools like the New America's Better
Work Toolkit that came out of the Better Life Lab
are doing a great job of making the logical case

(29:21):
for it, but like you said, Bridget, there needs to
be an emotional case for it, or at least a
financial case for diversity in leadership and sustainability in the workplace,
or an organization being able to justify just what Bridget
was saying, why it's worth what it's going to cost
to not invest in those things. If you can make
the case for why it's worth wasting money to not

(29:42):
invest in these things that we know are more efficient
and going to be more efficient for your organization, explain that, like,
make that case, But I think you have a really
hard time doing so well. I think the part of
what makes this difficult is that it's a belief. It's
not based on data, it's not based on anything other
than like an ur a coll of faith. Well, I
think that you know, the best workers are the ones

(30:04):
that are most committed, and the way they show that
is by always being here and always being on. So
to tackle that it does require data, but it requires
more than data, you know, it requires sort of redesigning things.
It's um. When you talk to design thinkers, they'll say,
sometimes it's easier to act your way into a new
way of thinking than it is to think your way

(30:24):
into a new way of acting. So part of what
we did at the with the Better Work Toolkit, we
were working on a project on the science of work,
liass balance and health with the Robert with Johnson Foundation
and Ideas forty two UM. There are nonprofit of behavioral
scientists trying to use behavioral science to solve real world problems.
And we're looking at work life conflict and overwork and
trying to understand some of the behavioral science behind what

(30:46):
drives it. And then how do you design solutions again,
how do you kind of nudge people into acting into
a new way which then might lead to a new
way of thinking rather than trying to convince or persuade
people and then trying to get them to change some
of their behaviors. So one of the things that we've done,
we've gone into UM started with nonprofits and Ideas forty

(31:08):
two went in and did some kind of on the
ground UM UM interviewing if you will, And I've been
doing UM kind of the storytelling partner and so I've
been doing a lot of reporting alongside that. And one
of the things that we really focused on is like, well,
what are the pain points at at work organizations and
really trying to get a handle of like what's kind

(31:30):
of where what's driving some of that overwork and what
are people really unhappy about? And that's where we came
up with sort of the three things that a lot
of companies and teams came up with to try to
to try to solve some of the questions around changing
family structure and that how we didn't have the American
wife at home anymore? And how did you how would
the workplace respond to UM, you know, kind of changing

(31:53):
family structure and changing workforce. And they came up with
a lot of let's be more flexible, let's give workers
more autonomy, and then we'll collaborate more. You technology has
brought so much more collaboration, and yet what we found
is that there these are kind of like new systems,
but they've been layered onto legacy systems. So you have
the new system of email, but it's layered onto this

(32:13):
legacy system of meetings. And so again when I was
talking about being at this pivot point, we are at
this kind of crashing of old and new, and that's
part of what we really what we really uncover is,
um you know, how do you then just make an
argument based purely on what you're experiencing? Well, email overload,
Well what can you do about it? Well, how about

(32:34):
you try some of these judges. How about you try
to make it more difficult to send an email after hours?
You know, maybe you have like you know, or you
set a boomerang so you schedule them, you know, or
you or you kind of like create more um you know,
you create more systems where it's easier to push people
to take vacation. And that becomes part of the planning

(32:55):
early on in the year January, in February, pick your
time and then you can always swap it. But a
lot of the problem is, you know, because you've got
these work cultures where your value all this overwork, you
don't schedule your vacation and then all of a sudden,
you know, your calendar fills up, and then it's June
and you better take your vacation, and your family is
on your case and why aren't you why you know?
And then you look at your calendar You're like, oh

(33:16):
my god, there's no way I can schedule it. What
if you design something where you scheduled it in February
when all that time in July and August is totally white,
it's white space. And so and then once you start
taking vacation and then you plan for it and you've
anticipated it, and you set up work systems where you
know it and everybody else can you know, they're they're
ready for you to be gone, and so you don't

(33:37):
have to worry about a last minute kind of panic. Uh.
And then once you create that space for taking vacation,
you know, part of the reason why people don't and
they don't unplug is that we don't have a lot
of practice doing it, and so that we've we've lost.
We decided we can't remember why that time is important.
And so if you create those kind of systems that

(33:57):
make it more likely you'll be able to unploy in
the evening, or that you'll take a weekend off, or
you'll actually have vacation so that you can truly recharge
and experience that time. The better you know, the more
you do it, the more you realize how critical it
is for not only joy but also doing for doing
good work. The more you practice, you'll have I gotta

(34:19):
jump in here because Bridget over here, Bridget Todd has
this look on her face that makes me think that
are you feeling personally called in on this other front?
I feel a little attached right now. I'm not gonna lie, Bridget.
Something to know about me is that I have not
taken a vacation, maybe since I wasn't maybe high school
or honestly it might have been like a college spring

(34:41):
break trip. Uh. And we've had a little on air
conversation about operation vacation. Vacation bridget Todd edition, I do.
I mean, I think it's everything you said and so
so so much more. I think it's part of the
American sort of fetishization of hustle and drive and look
at me, aren't I a martyr? That I never take

(35:02):
vacation and I never unplugged and blah blah blah. And
I think it's exactly what you said. When you feel
when everything feels scattered and you know you're kind of
always in triage mode, always just trying to make it
to the next day. You can't look at your calendar
and say, you know, this is the month I'm gonna
do it. That seems so unrealistic, right, Like the idea
that I could look at my calendar and say, I'm

(35:22):
gonna have room to go to Costa Rica in January.
I'm trying to make it to tomorrow, right, And so
I think what you described is accurate. But I also
just from someone who's in that in that position, like
really in it, I feel it right, like it feels
very real, and it feels like what you're describing of
calendaring out when you're gonna have you know, time off

(35:44):
and sort of that that does that that kind of
design of your of how your life is going to
go that almost seems like a fantasy. It sounds awesome,
but I think for a lot of our listeners out there.
They might have just heard what you said and said, yeah,
that chance, lady, I'm gonna look at my calendar and say, oh,
in February, I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna have this
lovely vacation. But I think it's exactly what you said

(36:08):
that it's a cultural shift of understanding why you're not
doing yourself any favors by not being able to do that. Well,
that's why your boss has to sit you down in January.
That's what I do with my staff too. Like it's personal, sure,
and especially in our freelancer hustle side hustle type culture
that we operate in, it's tough because we're our own

(36:29):
boss in a lot of ways. But you know, it's individual,
it's systemic in terms of an organization, and there are
things that our government can do. Let's let's be real,
let's get on that policy soapbox for a second, because
America can be better on this, Like there are models
of other countries that have clearly made progress on this,

(36:49):
and bridget That's what I want to talk about when
we come back from this next quick break, So hang on,
we want to hear all that New America has to share.
About what other countries have figured this out and how
we in the United States can get on board with
a Better Life We'll be right back after this quick
word from our sponsors, and we're back, and Bridget Todd

(37:16):
was just making her plans to head to Costa Rica
on vacation, y'all, So stay tuned for news on that front.
But in the meantime, we're here with Bridget Chalty, author
lead director of the New America's Better Life Lab. Let's
talk about Uncle Sam, shall we like? We know that
individuals we've got to get out of the martyrdom mind set.

(37:38):
We know that organizations have to make changes in how
they're acting to start believing in this concept of sustainability
being good for business. What on earth is government's role
in making this easier on all of us? Well, you know, honestly,
country or society, they signal what's important in the policies

(38:01):
that they hold and policies. You know, one of the
things we work on the Better Life Lab is not
only policy. We do original research and data and storytelling,
but we're really all about culture change and so sort
of a chicken or egg, what comes first is the
culture change and then the policy changes. But there's a
lot of really good evidence from other countries that when
you change a policy, then the culture changes. So we're

(38:24):
trying to press on both of those level levers, you know.
So there's there's a lot that that that the government
could do. Um. You know, for instance, in some countries
they have flexibility to call it a right to request.
In the UK, UM, you as a as a worker,
you have the right to request a flexible schedule and
a and your manager, your boss can only turn you

(38:45):
down if they can make a business case about why
it would hurt the business. So that's certainly something that
we could do, you know, UM businesses and it may
not like that, well then I would say, then then
jump ahead of the curve and make flexibility the default
in your business. I don't wait for the government to
be involved, you know, go ahead and lead on that one. Um.
You know, there's plenty of other things that we could

(39:07):
do to understand and to reflect the fact that the
workplaces today are still set up to accommodate the male
worker of the ninety fifties. You know, the workplace today
does not uh really does not mesh or or there's
such a huge disconnect between the way people really live
their lives and what they're expected to do at work,

(39:28):
so we could have things where the only advanced economy
with no paid family leave policy, family medical leaf policy.
We're the only advanced country that does not have a
paid vacation days policy. UM. And we're our labor laws
were actually they haven't been updated in seventy five years.
The fairly the Fair Labor Standards Act was we were
leading the world all back in the nineteen thirties when

(39:52):
we came up with the forty hour work week and
the minimum wage, and at the time there was discussion
that we should also have a national two week vacation policy. UM.
But then, you know, unfortunately they started out with three things,
and in the way that compromise works, they got rid
of two and they got rid of one and they
left us with two. So maybe they should have started
with five things, and then we would have ended up

(40:14):
with a paid vacation policy, but we didn't. UM. But
you know, one of the things that that has done
is that it limited over time hours for hourly workers.
That said, you know, the Fair Labor Standards Act says
if you work over a certain number of hours, forty
hours you know, if you're an hourly worker, then you
get time and a half. Well, that didn't happen with
knowledge workers if you're a salaried worker. So literally, uh,

(40:36):
you know. And at the time in the thirties, there
weren't as many salaried workers as hourly workers. And now
we've got so many knowledge workers that literally, by law,
you can work people to death and it's perfectly legal, uh,
you know, if you're a salaried worker. So it's time
to really rethink our labor laws, uh and really think
about them as investments in human capital, which is really
what our workforce is. Um. So, yes, paid family lead,

(41:01):
high quality, affordable, subsidized chapoo care. You know, it's it's
a sounding. Yeah. Let's let's talk more about those two things.
Because first of all, you just released a new report
from New America that asked the question how much paid
family leave is enough? And I think that's something a
lot of businesses and our government is wrestling with. What

(41:24):
did y'all find? Well, so what we did is we
reviewed more than a hundred fifty academic studies from the
United States and around the world, and we read many more,
but we only we only kept the most rigorous, rigorously
designed ones. And we had the same question, Well, you know,

(41:44):
where did the twelve weeks of family unpaid Family Medical
Leave Act come from? At the time that Trump administration
was talking about a six week at first paid maternity
leave and then now it's a paid parental leaf policy
that they've been talking about, where did that come from? Um,
you know, do you get six weeks or eight weeks
of disability pay after you've had after childbirth? But you know,

(42:05):
where did these times come from? And are they you know,
what kind of time should we be looking at? Uh?
And so what was really interesting. We looked at four
different outcomes. We looked at infant and child health and wellness,
maternal health and wellness, gender equality, and economic impact, the
business impact. And we came up with four really four
different recommendations. And the data is really clear when you

(42:28):
look at infant mortality or SIDS SIDS rates, I mean,
the United States, we have a really high infant mortality rate.
We have one of the highest SIDS death rates of
any country, not just advanced economies, any country. We have
one of the highest maternal mortality rates, even higher than
you know, places of a recent conflict like Bossia and Kazakhstan.

(42:48):
So we're not doing so great on the health front,
and those are huge costs. And so what we've found
is the data is really clear to really reduce infant
mortality and have an impact on SIDS and really set
a child up for healthy development, our recommendation is one
year split between parents, and I think the data it's

(43:08):
really clear the data supports that. UM when you look
at maternal health and wellness UM where the six to
eight weeks came from. That was set back in the
nineteen seventies. What people don't realize is that until the
Pregnancy Discrimination Act passed in the nineteen seventies, there was
no that made pregnancy a disability, you know, so that
then you could cut you your state had a temporary

(43:30):
disability insurance fund, or you your your company had a
private disability insurance then you could qualify where a disability
under pregnancy. So that did not happen until the nineteen seventies.
And now those were just the you know, some some
insurance persons somewhere just said, I don't know, six weeks, Yeah, okay,
that sounds good. But what we found is that the

(43:51):
data really is clear that a majority of women are
still experiencing at least one symptom of childbirths at six months,
you know, whether it's dizzy, dizziness, nausea, fatigue, urinary incontinence,
that your body is still really not healed. So we
say a minimum of six months for ensuring um good

(44:13):
maternal outcomes. And there's great data that shows how that
has not only huge physical impacts, but mental health impacts,
that reduces maternal depression, and that lasts over a lifetime.
We found really interesting longitudinal research out of Europe that
showed even thirty years later, if you had had a
you know, if you had had a decent amount of

(44:34):
time to recover from childbirth, that protective effect lasted for decades.
When when it came to gender equality, the data was
not as clear about how long a leap should be,
but it was really clear that when you made space
for men to take lead solo parentally, that it had
a huge impact on relationship quality, on gender equality within

(44:58):
the relationship um, it had a big impact on child
development and the bonds between children and their fathers. Uh
So we didn't have like a particular duration, you know,
like it should be x number of days or weeks
or months. But we did say equal bonding lead between
men and women. That the data is so so clear
that that makes a huge difference. Right when you're you know,

(45:21):
when a child comes into a family, you know, all
of your family dynamics are just thrown up into here,
and so that's a perfect time to set a really
different dynamic where you really share care and you share
your lives together. The last one that we looked at
was economic impact. And again what's really clear is that
it's if you think about you think about it like

(45:43):
a bell curve, like if if a leave is too short,
women tend to leave the workplace, but if a leave
is too long, they tend to not be able to
come back to work or back at the same level.
We look looked at places and like the Czech public
where you could you could gone, you could be out
for three years on with some kind of pay under
different schemes per child um and it was very difficult

(46:07):
then for women to get back into the workplace. So
there's a sweet spot between you know, like nine months
to a year for uh that if a if a
if a woman has that long that kind of sufficient
duration of a of a paid lead, they will come
back into the workplace and they're actually ready and their
um there the kind of real performance and productivity benefit

(46:30):
to that. Yes. So one of the chapters you dive
into in your book is about how the Republican Party
almost passed an affordable childcare of aform bill. So what
happened with that and do you ever think will get
close to having something like that again in this country? Well,
and it wasn't just Republicans. It was actually a bipartisan
UH bill and a bipartisan effort. It was a really

(46:51):
fascinating time. It was the early night. What is that bipartisan?
What does that mean? Yeah, Republicans and Republicans and Democrats
were not mortal enemies. Yeah, they were actually well together
there for the benefit of the people, which is what
you would help a Demlar person is all about. But
in the early nineteen seventies, there was a couple of

(47:12):
things that were happening that were really interesting, and one
was that they were just beginning to do more brain studies.
You know, before then, they thought that babies were just
sort of like these blobs and it didn't really matter
what you did the babies. You could leave them in
a drawer, put them in a playpen, and they were
just beginning to understand just how critical this time was
for really setting architecture of their brains and uh, you know,

(47:37):
setting the stage for all future development. And so there
was so at the time President Richard Nixon got very
interested in that and said, you know, we really need
to make sure that all children have the best start
in life. And at the same time, this is right
when women started entering the workforce and mass in part
because the Women's movement had opened up more um jobs

(47:58):
that had been traditionally masculine jobs that had opened up
more opportunity for women. But also at the same time,
there were more and more working class women who went
to work because sort of the family wage quote unquote
if you will, had started to stagnate and families just
couldn't make it on one salary anymore. And so it
was really an economic necessity that a lot of women
entered the workforce workforce, you know, just to keep the

(48:20):
standard of living the same. And so there were poles
and said, hey, more and more women are in the workplace, Um,
wouldn't it be a great idea, you know, should we
help should we help them with childcare, and majorities of
Republicans and Democrats came back and said, yes, the government
should actually play a role in this. So there was
a huge bill that actually had bipartisan support. The nix

(48:42):
And administ administration. They were working behind the scenes to
craft the bill. They had a big coalition. Uh, and
they actually it passed both House and Senate, and it
made it to the White House. And it would it
would have called for high quality, easily accessible child care,
easily affordable. It was supposed to be on a siding scale.

(49:03):
There'd be high standards, there would be good pay. Um.
You know, it was basically childcare in every corner. Um.
And it got to the White House. And at the time, uh,
there this was just at the beginning of the rise
of the kind of the far right wing of the
Republican Party. UM. And Pat Buchanan who was sort of
in the vanguard. UM. He was working in the White

(49:25):
House at the time for Richard Nixon. He's a speech writer.
And I went and interviewed him for my book and
I and he said, I saw that bill coming and
to him that that felt like the end of America.
And he said, you know, uh, what makes America great
is its families, and family is mom is home when
the kids come home from school, with you know, waiting
for them, with kicken pie. And I just looked at it,

(49:48):
and I said, well, you know a majority of mothers
in this country work, you know, they work outside the
home for pay. Um. And that didn't that didn't seem
to register with him. And he said, well, go ahead
and work, but I'm you know, don't make don't make
me pay for Johnny or jim you know, Jimmy or whatever.
So he pav Yuchan and convinced Richard Nixon to veto that.

(50:09):
Bill and Pa Buchanan had just come back from a
trip to the Soviet Union at the time, um, and
this was at the height of the Cold War. He
saw all these little kids and these you know, in
these kind of quote unquote Soviet daycares, and he became
terrified that that's what that's what childcare was, that we
would send all of our American children like rip them
out of the mother's arms and rip them out of

(50:30):
the house, and send them off to these little factories
and make them, you know, march around and I don't know,
sbout Leninist doctrine or something such nonsense. Thanks a lot, Pat,
like really really blowing up our spot here by like,
you know, branding this idea of affordable national childcare as indoctrination,
like Russian indoctrination of our kids. That's not at all

(50:53):
what was going to be. Well, that's exactly how he
painted it. And he stirred up the conservative base, you know,
the infull wars of the time, the conservative columnists, and
they really scared people. And Nixon decided to veto the bill,
and he let Pat Buchanan write the veto message. And
when I talked to Pat Buchanan, he said, we not

(51:14):
only wanted to kill the bill, but we wanted to
kill the very idea of childcare in the United States. Well,
he's been pretty successful in that and never hasn't. And
what's that's pro family like killing childcare? And well, right,
because of family values. To Pat Buchanan, men men go
to work and women stay home. So I guess what

(51:34):
I would say to that is, you know, that's just
not the reality that we live in anymore. Wages have
stagnated since the nineteen seventies, So if you want to
still have the same standard of living, you know, you
do need to earners, and if you don't want to earners, well,
then you need to do something about wages, because you know,
that's beyond a family's ability to control um. And the

(51:57):
other thing is, I guess I would argue, you know what,
if you make flexible work the default, then somebody could
be home, you know, at least sometimes for cake and
piet three in the afternoon. So I guess my argument is,
can't we get to that same spot where we really
value family time, where we really value um, you know,
the time that we that we have, you know, with

(52:19):
others that we love. Can we get there in a
way that doesn't require like half the workforce to stay
home and and not be able to you know, contribute
to in the public sphere and add our knowledge and
ideas to the economy. Or can we or can we
figure out how to change workplaces such that, you know,

(52:40):
if you do want to take out a few years
for whatever reason, it's not so difficult to get back
in and get back on a career track. You know,
Can we figure out how to change the way we
work and our workforce culture to really match what people
really want in the way we live our lives. Can
we figure out how to do good, excellent work and

(53:01):
still have time for all of the all the things
that make life worth living. And I think we can.
There are other people who've done it. We just have
to start. So bridget I'm a US voter and I'm
piste off about this issue. What can I do? How
do I make this happen? I got to talk about it,
you know, Um, make sure that your lawmakers know that

(53:22):
this is something that you care about. Have your voice heard,
Do they have a plan, do they have a position
on it? You know, a lot of times these these
issues don't rise us to the top because people sort
of feel hopeless. Oh, childcare be so expensive, it's such
a big deal. We can't do it. Well, you know what,
We're never going to figure out how to do it
if we don't start asking, if we don't start making noise. So,

(53:44):
if I'm a voter, find uh, you know, first and foremost,
find candidates who support your views and are you know,
and we'll make these you know, are and are committed
to finding answers and solutions. Vote for them. Get out there,
you know, m go knock on doors, donate money, you know,
make this, use the system, make the system work, and

(54:07):
then you know, if your candidate has not, you know,
maybe it's not your your ideal candidate. We'll get out
there and make sure that you know your constituent, your
your voice heard right right to your member of congress um.
You know, start locally there there can be local solutions
that then can be scaled. Let people know about it,

(54:28):
make noise. You don't, don't just sort of suffer in silence,
because there's a lot of pain out there. And what
I found when I was writing my book is I
thought that I was completely alone and that everybody else
was fine. And it was really only in writing the
book that I realized everybody's not fine and we're all
in pain. It's just that nobody believes that things can change,

(54:49):
so that there's been a real hopelessness and sort of like, oh, well,
what use is it? Why bother talking about it? And
we need to start talking about it and keep talking
about it. And that's a lot of what we're doing
here at the Better Life Lab. We just we've got
our new media partnership with Slate. We've got the Better
Life Lab channel on Slate, and that's part of our
Our goal is to just have a steady stream of

(55:10):
high quality stories and data and essays to just completely
keep hammering this issue that our world needs to change
and it's not impossible, and let's get together and do this.
And we are so grateful for your work and your
leadership on that front. Obviously, the last time you and
I sat down, Bridget, we were talking about a very

(55:32):
different prospective future pre election two thousand sixteen. And I
think all the things you just mentioned of making your
voice heard, writing letters to your elected officials, knocking doors,
making phone calls are clearly things that we didn't do
enough of this past go round, or at least the
Electoral College really screwed us on that front. The leadership

(55:55):
of New America and giving us and arming us with
the tools to make our voices her cannot be understated.
And campaigns and coalitions that have been coming together around this,
like the Make It Work campaign, I thought was a
really interesting UM leader in the space of advocating for
family solutions or work life solutions that would benefit all

(56:18):
of us, including single, childless, unmarried women like Bridget and
I hear um that I would love to see us
all pounding the pavement a lot more, whether it's on
the state level and the local level or on the
federal level moving forward, So where can our listeners catch
up with you, Bridget Hilty and follow the great work

(56:41):
that you're leading at the Better Life Lab. Well, that
would be awesome because part of what we are really
trying to do is network with other people, like minded people,
and you know, by banding together, we're all stronger. So
we are all about making connections and um people can
find us on the web where we've got a lot

(57:02):
of tools uh um at the New America website, you
can look for the Better Life Lab. We've got a
newsletter that comes out where we amplify not only our
work but other partner organizations and researchers and writers who
are doing really great work trying to move the needle.
Because again we believe in amplifying other voices in addition
to ours. That we're all stronger um when we all

(57:24):
come together. UM. So we also, you know, we're on
social media. We've got a really cool new project called
Mission Visible, where we've curated a list of fantastic um
kind of a list of experts who are women and
people of people of color. And so every time there's
an all male Panda. We've actually got race sources. It's

(57:45):
like no excuse, come to Mission Visible and find your
find find a diverse expert. So we're really trying to
look for practical solutions as well. So there's Mission Visible
out there. Um you know, we have events, UM, I
do a lot of speaking, and we now have the
Better Life Lab channel and slate, So come there and
read our stories and um, you know, help us spread

(58:07):
the world the world. The world needs to change, absolutely,
And if you haven't already, pick up your copy of
Overwhelmed Work, Love and Play and No one has the time,
Bridget's fantastic book. Clearly you have such expertise on this
subject matter. We could talk with you all day about it.
So if you want more historical context, political context and

(58:28):
vivid picture of how we can get out of this
overwhelmed culture, and make sure to pick up Bridget's awesome book.
Smithy listeners, we want to hear from you. What does
this mean to you? What would it look like to
have an organization and a government that is bought in
on work life balance, that is aware of role conflict

(58:51):
and how much it's hampering us all from achieving our
full potential make sure to get in touch with us
at mom Stuff podcast on Twitter, show us what roll
overload looks like for you on Instagram at stuff mom
Never Told You, And as always, we love getting your
listener mail at mom stuff at how stuff works dot
com