October 5, 2015 • 55 mins
Ronda "Rowdy" Rousey is the world's most successful women's MMA fighter and has even been called a feminist icon. Cristen and Caroline discuss her judo-fueled rise to fighting fame and why she's attracted feminist adoration and scrutiny.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to
works not come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about Ronda
Rowdy Rowsey. That's right. She's so rowdy, so rowdy. Everyone
has been talking about her. And I did not follow
(00:28):
m m A Mixed Martial Arts really at all. I still,
honestly I don't get how, but you can't not pay
attention to rowdy Ronda. Well, I I had managed to
still not really pay attention to rowdy Ronda. Um. I
also don't follow any sort of fights. Dude roommates when
we lived together, was always shelling out big bucks to
(00:48):
watch m m A and UFC fights on pay per view. Um,
the dudes fighting, not not Ronda Rowsy. Um. But I
know that he, for one, is definitely impressed at her prowess.
You can't not be impressed by her. And speaking of
pay per view, he might have been a little frustrated
had he bought her history making fight with Cat Singano
(01:15):
when she knocked her out, Well, I guess it's not
technically like a knockout, but Zingano tapped out, basically surrendering
after only fourteen seconds. I watched the fight Caroline, and
then I watched it again because it happened so quickly
you didn't even see it. But she Rhonda Rousy ended
the fight with her classic armbar move, where she essentially
(01:39):
gets you pinned down and moves her thigh in such
a way that if you move your arms, she'll like
dislocate your elbow. That sounds like the worst. Well, of
course it's the worst, because you gotta win. Feel like, kids,
I'm getting lighthooded just thinking about the well, you would
not last a minute. Well, honestly, all she would have
(02:01):
to do is like do a fate coming at me
move and I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll stop.
What was I doing? Why am I here? What am
I doing in this scenario? Yeah? I heard part of
um Howard Stern interview with with Rousing and he was
asking her. He said, you know you're so dominant, You're
dominant in the sport, you dominate your fights. What does
that mean? Does it mean you just win really well
(02:23):
and effectively and fast? And she's like, yeah, I guess, yeah,
I mean, because that's that pretty much sums it up.
She is incredibly fast. Yeah, she's super fast, and she
is super dominant. I mean, she dominates the UFC bantam
weight division, and she's won all twelve of her fights
under that banner. Uh and I think she's won eleven
(02:44):
out of twelve in the first round. So I mean
it's almost like her competitors don't stand a chance. People
have started actually booing her at fights because they want
to see her lose, so neither of us. We've fested
up our hardcore m m A fans shocking m m A. Honestly, like,
it's hard for me to watch those matches because I
don't enjoy watching people beat each other up now. But honestly, though,
(03:08):
sometimes it just looks like they're hugging on the ground. Yeah,
it does get huggy and they're like, oh, that's cute,
But then you realize how much it probably smells in
that hug. Oh it's so flippery. A lot of pheromones happening.
So why, though, are we devoting an entire podcast to
Ronda Rowsey? Well, I mean, if she come as no
surprise that she is an interesting character. I mean, she's
(03:30):
a woman in I mean, I think it's an understatement
to say that it's a male dominated sport. UM. She's
also incredibly Like we said, she's dominant, she's super athletic,
she's accomplished, she's determined. UM people have called her an inspiration,
they've hailed her as a feminist, but she's also been
in the news for a lot of trash talking, both
(03:52):
against opponents, against big names in men's boxing and wrestling
and UFC. But she's also had really not some nice
things to say about the trans community. Yeah, and I
think it's worth talking about her because, yes, being this
woman who has made women's m m A and the
(04:13):
UFC fights even possible, but someone who stardom really skyrocketed
in the mainstream this year when she was awarded an
s V for Best Fighter when she beat out Floyd Mayweather,
who was a boxer who also has a history of
domestic violence against UM former partners. And she used that
(04:37):
when to call him out on that, but it was
also a jab at him for having previously mentioned in
an interview that he had no idea who she was, well,
he didn't exactly say that. This was back in July,
Mayweather was asked whether he would fight Ronda Rousy and
he said, I don't even know who he is. Oh yeah,
(04:58):
so playing a little bit dumb. And so after Rondo
won that sp award, um, she said, I can't help
but really say, I wonder how Floyd feels being beaten
by a woman for once. I'd like to see him
pretend not to know who I am now. And it
was really with that quote that she was launched into
the mainstream. I mean, people have been talking about her
(05:20):
for a while, but suddenly she was on every lady
blog that I read, and that's how she came on
my radar. But who is she aside from an sp winning,
smack talking, fierce mm A fighter. Yeah, well, briefly, she
is a former judo player and Olympic medalist turned m
(05:43):
m A fighter. She actually signed with UFC, which is
Ultimate Fighting Championship, m m a's biggest promoter in case
you didn't know back in and she like we said,
it's currently the UFC bantam Weight Champion of the World.
But you also might know her from rolls in Fast
and Fear Is seven, The Expendables three, and the Entourage movie.
(06:04):
Definitely The Expendables three and I was in line for that.
I have that on DVD, Blu ray and VHS Caroline,
it's just gonna say, but do you have it on tape? Um? Yeah,
And so she's kind of following Gina Karana, who's a
fellow m m A fighter. She's kind of following Gina
Karana's example there in terms of transitioning from fighting over
to uh movies. And I wonder though, if it's related,
(06:28):
because she just announced that now at twenty eight, she
just announced that she'll probably be retiring in the next
three or four years because she is so dominant and
now that she's getting some movie roles. I wonder if
she's like, well, I can just transition and not you know,
dominate these women anymore. Yeah. I mean, she's talked about
how she really enjoys acting and being in action films
(06:48):
and also doing her own stunts, So that seems like
something that's super appealing to her and will probably make
her a lot more money than being a female mm
A fighter. Even though she's the best female fighter out there,
the money still isn't as big as what Hollywood would
offer her. Yeah. Absolutely, And it's also not surprising considering
(07:11):
how just in the past few months, I really ever
since the SPS, she has become this almost every woman's heroine.
I mean very quickly. She was escalated from oh this
mm a fighter, too feminist heroine. Yeah, a lot of
people do love her, um, just for her personality, beyond
(07:34):
just the fighting and beyond being an amazing athlete. People
just love her as a person. Hillary Weaver over at Bustle,
for instance, hailed Rousy for calling the shots, saying what's
in her mind, just being open about her fears. In
addition to being at the top of her game and
the fact that Rousy is very vocal about things like
body image, eating disorders, and self esteem. Weaver quotes Rowsies saying,
(07:57):
when I was in school, martial arts made you adore
and I became self conscious that I was too masculine.
I was a sixteen year old girl with ringworm and
cauliflower ears. People made fun of my arms and called
me miss man. It wasn't until I got older that
I realized these people are idiots. I'm fabulous. So how
could you not love her? Some incredible athlete who's preaching
(08:18):
about body acceptance, self acceptance, self esteem. I mean, that
seems like a great role model, and Rowsey has been
pretty quotable. UM in her career. There was one quote
especially that jumped out not only to a lot of
folks on the internet, but also Beyonce Cardinals Um. She
used this quote like up on screen um during her
(08:42):
most recent performance, and it's probably rouseys most famous quote
at this point that she uh said in a ufc
vlog in July. And it's all about being a quote
do nothing bit, that's right. So this quote actually resonated
(09:03):
with a lot of people, obviously including Beyonce, who projected
it at the Maid in America festival. Um. So, Rolesy says,
I have one term for the kind of woman that
my mother raised me not to be. And of course
we'll talk about Rolesy's mother. It's a little bit more later,
she says, and I call it a do nothing bitch,
a kind of chick that just tries to be pretty
and be taken care of by somebody else. That's why
(09:25):
I think it's hilarious from people say my body looks
masculine or something like that. Listen, just because my body
was developed for a purpose other than bleeping millionaires doesn't
mean it's masculine. I think it's femininely badass as bleep
because there's not a single muscle in my body that
isn't for a purpose, because I'm not a do nothing bitch.
(09:45):
And so this quote was hailed by a lot of people,
especially in the feminist blog sphere, as being empowering. Oh
my gosh, she's encouraging women to go out there and
accept themselves and be active and be proud of their bodies,
their athletic bodies that might look different from the model
bo das you see in magazines. But other people, I mean,
it's a mixed bag. Other people definitely took issue with
(10:06):
her sort of perceived finger pointing at a name calling
it other women, you mean, feminists and universally agree on
what a celebrity said. Oh my god, I shocking. Um. Yeah.
A lot of Vaganos writing over at huff Post said
it left the feminist in me quietly cringing, which is
not surprising because there is the woman shamy element of it,
(10:28):
where it's categorizing her as really not like other girls.
She's not one of those do nothing bitches. Um. So
you can see how that could seem feminist that it's
on its face, but have an underbelly of misogyny. Yeah,
I mean I did wonder about that. A lot of
(10:50):
her comments and we'll get into some more of the
not so nice comments in a second, but a lot
of her comments seem to reflect a sort of I
feel maybe an internal lot I don't know if it's
internal as misogyny, but an internalized, uh distaste at the
very least for certain types of women, whether those are
helpless women that she she feels, you know, are just
relying on other people or not lifting a finger like
(11:13):
those d n b s. But Vaganas that Kristen de cited,
was really worried that rond Arousy was like pointing it Housewives.
She's like, well, why are we judging women for for
not wanting to do things? And it's like, well, I don't.
I don't know if that's really the context that she meant. Yeah,
I think reading Housewives into it is a little much,
(11:35):
but it is reminiscent of our Trophy Wives and gold
Diggers episodes where you do have they're just so many,
so many value judgments made on women who dressed themselves
in particular kinds of ways and categorizing them all as
d n b s. Yeah, you could say that that
(11:57):
um can can be unnecessar fairly cruel and reductive. Um.
But I think it's also worth remembering too that at
no point up until now, at least not that I've seen,
has Ronda Rousey self identified as a feminist. Am I right?
I believe you're correct, But so it's interesting to see
(12:19):
how that mantle has been placed on her. I mean,
I think she clearly espouses a lot of you know,
feminist ideals, and it's totally all about gender equality. But
I don't know that she cares to be the feminist
advocate that everyone is trying to read into her career. Yeah,
she's I mean, she's like so so many women who
(12:41):
do get stuck with some label or another in the
media just because of some quotes. And I can appreciate
her her powerful statements about body image and about following
your dreams and being determined and accepting yourself and saying
screw everybody else. Does that mean she's a feminist? I mean,
that's not really for us to say. And there has
also been some backtracking on the feminist bloggo sphere because
(13:05):
of transphobic comments that Rousey has made as well. I mean,
she's she's not a perfect public speaker. In that regard,
even with that bustle piece that you started a few
minutes ago and now has an addendem on there saying, yeah,
she said some really great stuff, but also uh, some
not so great stuff. Yeah. Her attitudes about trans women
(13:27):
in particular are far from unique among m m A
and UFC fighters. Um, there's a lot of conversation around
this because of just the physical nature and the violent
nature of these types of competitions. So back in two,
UFC fighter Matt Mitrianni made some transphobic comments about fighter
(13:50):
Fallon Fox, a trans woman who came out that year,
and Mitrianni was suspended for them not cut and Rousey
responded by saying about fallon Fox, she can try hormones,
chopper pecker off, but it's still the same bone structure
a man has. It's an advantage. I don't think it's fair.
I understand the UFC doesn't want to be associated with
(14:11):
views like matrionis. I'm also glad they didn't straight cut him.
And that's a sentiment echoed by UFC President Dana White,
who's Rousey's boss effectively, who disagrees with that whole notion
of CIS and trans women fighting each other. He also
said bone structure is different, hands are bigger, jaws bigger,
everything is bigger. I don't believe in it. So this
is not Rousey is far from the only person in
(14:34):
m m A who's espousing these pretty terrible and exclusionary views,
and nor was this one time incident in Rousey told
the highly esteemed TMZ news outlet that she wouldn't fight
a trans woman, specifically referring to fallon Fox, saying it's
a case by case scenario thing. I've tried to research
(14:55):
it a lot. I feel like, if you go through
puberty as a man, it's not something can reverse. There's
no undo button on that, even though there has been
research on it and it's found that hormone therapy does
diminish your muscle mass. I mean, if you're going if
you're a trans woman going through hormone therapy, I should say, yeah,
(15:17):
this this strikes me as uh people not just rousy,
I mean definitely rousy, but people in m m A
having uh, definitely preconceived notions and prejudices towards trans people
that I think a little education would go a long
way towards combating these attitudes. But yeah, No, I mean
her smack talk. She is a smack talker and her
(15:37):
smack talk does not stop at the trans community. Um.
She made assertions about wrestler Sarah McCann's abilities and dedication
because she's a mother. Rousey says, I'm more of a
fighter than she is. She has a kid at home
and she has to go home to that kid. I
can afford to be selfish where she can't. I'm willing
to die in there, which, of course is like are
(15:58):
we are? We really will to die in the octagon,
Rhonda Rousey. Um, And I understand that that's more of
like a I'm going to prove myself at how dedicated
I am, and I'm going to help promote myself on
social media by smack talking my opponents. I understand that
this is nothing new in the world of fighting, whatever
type of fighting it is, whether you're a man or
a woman. However, again, it goes back to like feminist
(16:22):
in me, like putting my head in my hands and
being like, let's not talk smack about women who have kids. Well,
and it's how gendered A lot of these jabs are,
which does seem like a product of that mm A environment. UM,
but also too. I mean this is this is not
exclusive to m m A and UFC UM. But for instance,
(16:46):
she has an ongoing feud with another fighter named Misha
Cupcake Kate, and she said once I think she probably
wears a push up bra under her sports bra. So
she's criticizing her for her apparent girlliness, which is crazy
to me because Rolesy herself has to straddle that line
of be the aggressive fighter who's in tip top shape
(17:12):
and can knock out other women, but you have to
be beautiful and sexy and conventionally attractive while you do it.
I'm not saying that's right. I don't think it's right
that you should have to look one way or another
to be an athlete of any kind. What I'm saying is,
it's just interesting that here you have Rousy, who's part
of her success and her promotion by UFC, who previously
(17:35):
had the position of we will never have women in
UFC is due to the fact that she is. I mean,
it's it's not entirely due the fact that she's beautiful.
She's obviously an incredible fighter and an incredible athlete. UM,
but so much of that is like, well, she's also
really pretty, which helps are promoting her. Yeah. I mean
she's posed on the cover of Maxim before um and
(17:58):
not to not to say that that a judgment against her,
but it does seem like she kind of wants to
have it both ways a little bit. You can't. You
can't judge another woman negatively for her girliness if you
yourself are posing nude and magazines to show off your
beautiful figure. I mean she's I mean, she's got a
(18:18):
great bode. She's a freaking athlete, you know, to freaking athlete,
freaking athlete, and I think anyone would be hard pressed
to deny that Dana White, the UFC president, was not
partially persuaded to position her in terms of, you know,
kind of opening up UFC two women fighters if she
(18:39):
were not as conventionally attractive as she is. Yeah, because
we'll get to his reasoning behind excluding women in a
little bit. But Rousing also criticized Chris Cyborg Justina. I
love nicknames by the way, for fighters she's in general,
It's like it's the same thing with a roller Derby names.
I just love them. But yeah, so Chris Cyborg Justino
(19:00):
Stedd positive for an anabolic steroid. A while back, and
along the same lines of her transphobic comments, Rousy said
that Justino ceased to be a woman anymore. In a
perfect world, she would be a girl and not an it.
So yeah, so not she's not up on the uh
(19:21):
acceptance thing. But when I read that, what it reminded
me of was that quote. I believe it was two
Sports Illustrated where she talked about growing up and kids
criticized her and made fun of her and called her
miss man. And here she is doing a similar kind
of thing to another woman. Yes, we have some internalized things,
(19:42):
I was saying. That's what I'm saying. Oh man, you
know what scares me right now is thinking about Rhonda
Rousey listening to this podcast where we're like critiquing what
she says in her you know, wanting to come and
and beat us up in an octagon. Well, luckily there's
no octagons at the Health Stuff Works headquarters. Yes, this
podcast studio where in is a square, and luckily there
(20:03):
is like sound dampening squishy material on the wall. So
she did come in here and like body slam us,
it would be soft, Yeah, it would be against patting.
So but I do Bruce easily anyway, me too. But
lest you think that Rowsey has not been on the
receiving of smack talk herself, we should tell you about
(20:24):
former UFC fighter and wrestler Tank Abbott, who had some
not so nice things to say about both Rowsy and
women in general, women fighters in particular. But so he
on a podcast after Rousies comments, challenging Mayweather to a
fight and saying that, oh, how do you feel, how's
it feel to be beaten by woman? Uh? Tank Abbott
(20:45):
said that Mayweather would absolutely win and said she's a girl.
It's all about this emotional stuff. And he ended up
challenging Rowsey or any woman to a fight for free.
He said he wouldn't even train. Uh, and he said
I'll win and you'll have to make me a sandwich.
He also made comments, and I won't say the exact quote,
(21:07):
but he also made comments along the lines of but
you have to be a real girl. He sounds like
a trollish stuff whenever told you YouTube commenter tank is
that you Tank four three five. But speaking of a
possible Mayweather Rousy fight, I thought I was also interesting
that she has said that she doesn't want to fight
him because she does not think that it would be
(21:30):
healthy for the American public or the public at large
to see a guy and a girl fighting each other
like that. Well yeah, she specifically said for a man
to hit a woman on TV. Yeah, so that's probably
not a fight that you and I are going to
see anytime soon. And hopefully the fight between Rod Arousey
and two feminist podcasters also not going to happen. Hey Rhonda, Hey,
(21:54):
hey girl. Hey. Well, so there's obviously a lot of controversy.
She's she's not a perfect public figure. Who is um
But as we said, a lot of the seems like
it might be some internalized misogyny or internalized conflict over
feminine appearance versus maybe masculine activities. So why are people
(22:19):
so enamored with this woman? What's what's her story? And first,
before we get to her story in particular her backstory,
which in and of itself is pretty incredible, I think
part of the love and affection and fascination, if you
don't have any love for her, is the fact that
she's broken through so many walls to get where she is,
(22:41):
so many stereotypes, so many cultural fears around women's abilities,
and what's appropriate and what will sell. Yeah, being a
woman who is known for being able to beat people
up in as few as fourteen seconds, who is also
considered a sex symbol to some is revolutionary because not surprisingly,
(23:07):
we we haven't always really known what to do with
pugilistic women kind of they've kind of always freaked us out. Um.
So The Guardian had a great history on women fighters
and mentioned how in the seventeen seventies in London you
have the first recorded modern boxing match between Elizabeth a
Championist Wilkinson and Martha Jones. So I note, Martha, where's
(23:32):
your nickname? I know, come on, old Matha, someone if
you know Martha Jones's nickname please tell us. Maybe it
just wasn't recorded because the Cockney champions won. But I
mean it was definitely women's boxing, women's fighting. It was
definitely considered abhorrent and a side show, and it was
treated as such. Even in the nineteen no for Olympics,
(23:54):
women's boxing was just an exhibition, while men's of course
was part of the official competition. Yeah, I mean, he's
still have stuff like women's topless boxing, which I know
just hopefully they have hopefully I'm sure they have rules.
And despite the attitudes though that existed about or maybe
because of UH women's participation in boxing and weightlifting and wrestling.
(24:18):
We have one of our first celebrities in America in
the early twentieth century, and that's pro strong woman Katie
Sandwina and Stephiemist in History Class didn't episode on her,
but we also talked about Sandwena in our last episode
on women in weightlifting. But Sanduena was another case who
you know, maybe she's the original Rousy. Even though she
(24:40):
didn't fight, she was a weightlifter and a strong woman. Um.
She also had that case of being incredibly strong and
having these you know, quote unquote masculine abilities. But her
beauty was touted above just about anything else and UH
news outlets that sounds like a modern term right. HER's
journalists at the time talked about her maternal skills and
(25:04):
instincts and the fact that she had these children and
she was still motherly. Don't worry everyone. She's got a
large head, which puts her beautiful features into stark relief.
She's not too muscily, not too fat, She's tall and
like a goddess. Well, because they had to sell her
that way. Otherwise she would be considered grotesque if she
were divorced from conventional femininity than this woman who I
(25:29):
loved that one of her like her party tricks, so
to speak, was lifting her husband above her head. But
if she were not as pretty as she was, she
would have been more of a freak show attraction than
a Wringling Brothers, you know, center stage attraction. Yeah, exactly,
um and and I think, just to put in perspective
(25:49):
the tone that was still used decades and decades and
decades after that first fight, that first boxing match in England.
In England's conservative Home Secretary worked tirelessly to prevent a
woman's boxing match from taking place, saying he never thought
that such a disgraceful exhibition would be staged in this country.
(26:13):
So clearly women's boxing not catching on with everyone. Yeah, no,
it's a whole don't hit a girl thing. Even even
girls can't hit girls. We can scratch each other's eyeballs
out and pull hair, but no punching. Well, don't, yeah,
don't hit women. Women shouldn't hit each other, and not
in public, and not dressed like that. Please go back home.
This is too masculine well, and and punching someone in
(26:33):
the face too. That's a woman's prize is her face.
How could you do that? Um? When we get into
the nineteen forties and fifties, though, we do see women's
wrestling and roller Derby, What up to all of our stuff?
I've never told you roller Derby enthusiasts. I know you're
out there because we hear from you. Um. These really
start to become big things, which helped ussher in boxing
(26:55):
because think about these kinds of contact sports. Um, it's
not so surprised. I think that that that makes more
of a way for boxing to happen. Yeah, and so
then you get you start to see more, um, sort
of legit women's boxing celebrities rise. At this time, you've
got the four ft eleven battling Barbara Buttrick a k a.
(27:16):
The Mighty Adam meaning Adam. Wait, that's a weight class.
She fought bare knuckle matches at fairs in Britain against
anyone who'd fight her. Just like, come on up, fight
fight old Barbara. Babs. You do a whole podcast on Babs.
I don't know more. I think so too. But yeah,
she moved to America and that's when she went pro.
I think America had slightly different attitudes toward boxing, not
(27:38):
that it was, you know, in everybody's living rooms, but
slightly different attitudes than they had in England. She ended
up winning one of the first of Texas is boxing
licenses for women, and she and the other one I
think there, I think there was just one other one
ended up going head to head, and when Buttrick one,
she became the world's first woman boxing champ. And I
(27:58):
think it's worth noting too that for her last fight
in nineteen sixty she was four months pregnant. Barbara the
four ft eleven Barbara battle in Buttrick was four months pregnant. Meanwhile,
in England, no offense British listeners, women's boxing was still
more of a titilating freak show, and women boxers were
(28:18):
often on the same bill as topless fighters. So it's
just a novelty women beating each other up. All these
like back room barbawls where women, you know, it's the
same thing with like hawk fighting, yellow wrestling, mud wrestling.
It's like, oh my god, look at the woman boxer.
It's such a gross anomaly. But we're turned on at
(28:38):
the same time. Um. But it's interesting because once the
nineteen nineties hit, uh oh wow, I didn't even mean
to do that. Oh my god, I'm finally, I'm finally
getting there with the punk you got the stuff kid, finally. Um.
But women's pro boxing starts to get more legit as
do girls and women's wrestling teams. It's obviously still not
(29:02):
fully accepted, but it's becoming more legitimate. More legitimate clubs
are forming around these activities. In England, for instance, in
the Amateur Boxing Association lifted it's one and sixteen year
ban on female fighters, and in n Jane Couch became
the first legal professional boxer. Around the same time, but
(29:23):
a little bit earlier, in the US, USA Boxing finally
lifts its ban on women, followed by the Amateur International
Boxing Association, and around the same time we start to
see women entering m m A. So the technical history
of mixed martial arts goes back for a very long
(29:45):
time because it's a combination of these very ancient sports
like judo and also boxing, kickboxing, moy tai wrestling, and grappling,
which I feel like that's just something I do want
to league basis mentally grappling with reality. And now you're
a champ, though you're the woman's number one world champ,
(30:08):
was grappling with reality. Have a look of shock on
my face right now, listeners. I can't even see myself,
but I can feel it. Um. Yeah. And you know,
Krista mentioned judo, and indeed many of the early women
who went into m A had Judo backgrounds, as does
Rhonda Rowsy, like we mentioned, um and so you know,
I mentioned how the mid nineties that's when women start
(30:30):
getting into m m A. Well, UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship
promoting Company started in ninety three, and of course it's
all dudes and around this time. It's interesting that looking
at UFC and m m A, the American Medical Association
also called it abhorrent. Yeah. Senator John mccainny even like
(30:51):
spoke out against it at one point just because it
is so so violent and there are technically no rules,
well they're used to be no rules. There were no
weight classes, no rules. It's basically like just go in
there and trying not to kill him. Um. But eventually
to be taken seriously as a sport, not just a spectacle,
(31:13):
which of course is still a spectacle. They had to have,
you know, rules in place to keep you from dying.
So now a referee can intervene if it looks like
someone is about to be a little too claw Bard.
Sure and yeah, and then you have the weight class
divisions and things to make it to make it more
like the rules of boxing, so to speak. But it's
(31:35):
not until two thousand seven that women's m m A
catches on thanks to Showtime broadcasting a fight featuring Gina Krana,
who we mentioned earlier, and Krona's career starts to gain
steam and UFC rival Strike Force ends up sponsoring another
fight on Showtime. She eventually crosses over into film with
the movie Haywire, which I meant to see. I never saw,
(31:57):
neither did I. I wonder if it was any good
listeners let us know. Then, in two thousand eleven, not
so long ago, UFC president Dana White vowed that women
would never fight in his organization. And why here we
go quote. I went to a fight up in northern
(32:19):
California about eight or nine years ago, and I saw
this woman that looked like Chuck Ladell fight this girl
who looked like she had about five tybo classes, so
essentially saying there's not enough skill out there and it
would be un sexy to do it. Basically, if you
don't look like a supermodel and or you can't throw
(32:41):
a punch, what's the point. But there were octagon girls
who were the sexily clad, attractive women who would you know,
between the rounds walk rock around the octagon and hold
up their little cards. Sure, sure, absolutely so. Yeah, people
who are fans of boxing and other things like that
shouldn't be surprised by that. But Danta White does change
(33:03):
his tune obviously, I mean spoiler. Ronda Rousey is a
champion fighter. Uh she though, is specifically the one who
got White to change his tune, and I love semi
sarcastically the way he puts it, saying, this whole women's
power movement that's going on right now is crazy. Ronda
has been the whole thing. Ronda is the one that
(33:24):
launched this whole thing. I wouldn't have done it if
it wasn't for Ronda. She's the one that convinced me
to do it. And it's the best decision I've ever
made because it's putting money in his pocket. So of course,
he loves it. So how did Ronda Rousey come to be?
She did not come out of the womb, you know,
body slamming people. She didn't come out of zeus head
(33:45):
fully for yeah, but practically yeah. So Rousey is a
second generation judo player. Her mom and Maria DeMars in
four was the first American male or female, just the
first American to win gold at the World Judo Championship,
and Rousy, thanks to her training, was ranked number one
(34:06):
in America at just sixteen years old. She dropped out
of high school, and she's talked about how, you know,
even as a teenager, people rooted against her because she
was so dominant as an American girl in a sport
that was overwhelmingly European and Asian. And her success has
had a lot to do with her mom's really intensive
(34:30):
approach to training. I mean, she talked about at one
point how when she was in middle or high school,
where she would have sometimes up to fifteen bouts every day,
and in between her mom would not allow her to
talk to other kids. She would have to go and
sit down and focus on winning. That's isolating, it's very isolating.
(34:53):
And we we read a lot about how Ron Rowsing
is known for crying. She cries all the time, and
she says it's part actually because of how I mean,
it's kind of emotionally triggering for her because she didn't
always like having to do all of this the studo
all the time when she was a kid um But
all of that judo paid off in two thousand eight
(35:15):
at the Beijing Olympics, she won the bronze and she
was the first American woman to medal in judo. And
she ended up opting out of training for the twelve Games,
so she had her whole future in front of her.
She's like, I can't be an Olympian forever. What am
I gonna do? I'm gonna go to college. Should I
join the Coast Guard I could jump out of helicopters
and save people. Or should I go pro m m A?
(35:36):
What happened Caroline? I have no idea spoilers She joined
the Coast Guard? No No. In ten she makes a
decision to go for for m m A. She trains
with a judo competitor who had earned a UFC contract.
She learns the basics of boxing in my Tie, and
she starts out in amateur fights, but The thing is,
(35:56):
opponents weren't really so sure about going up against an
Olympian who hold her own against dudes at her gym.
Her first fight lasted just thirty seconds and earned her dollars.
Then in two thousand eleven, she joins the Strike Force roster,
seeing it as a launching pad to UFC. And then
in twelve she and opponent Mischa Tate build up anticipation
(36:20):
for their fight through interviews and sniping at each other
over social media. And I mean this was something though
that was also predicated by them both being coaches on
a UFC reality show, and I mean, ron A Rousy
did not mask any of her loathing for Tate, and
(36:40):
when the fight happens, Rousey dominates, no surprise, and UFC
takes notice. That's right, So later on that year they
end up signing her, and on top of that, they
announced their building a woman's bantam weight division, which is
one pounds centered around her. So they're from the get
go established her as the star. And it was really
(37:03):
her growing fame that eased Dana white skepticism about including
women in his organization. Because you have to keep in
mind that the year that she joined the Strike Force roster,
and she talks about how, like I envisioned going to
UFC after this. That was the same year that he
was like, nope, no women never. So this woman is
clearly determined. Um. But also her coaching stint on that
(37:27):
reality show, you know, her fame is growing. She's posing
Newton Magazine, she's giving lots of interviews, she's dominating other fighters,
and she's becoming the main attraction on pay per view fights.
All of this which, of course, you know, equal sign dollars,
signed dollar, signed dollar sign definitely serving to ease white
skepticism about including women. But this is also what's lad
(37:50):
a lot of fans to kind of turn on her
because she is very cocky, or at least plays up
the cocky arrogance, which is untrasted to her crying or
because she's known to to just weep yeah a lot.
But also she's become she's become the heel, right, so
because she nobody can beat her, she's almost become sort
(38:13):
of this villain. Her cockiness and her confidence, plus the
fact that she you know, never loses, people are sort
of painting her to be the villain. And I think
part of her this new Yorker interview with her was
so fantastic. Part of her loves it and loves the
attention and to screw him, and then the other part
of her, it's like, but why are they booing? Ma,
(38:33):
I'm so good and not a mean person. Yeah, she says,
whenever people talk about how cocky and arrogant I am,
it blows me away because I worked so hard to
develop self confidence. Because one thing we didn't mention a
few minutes ago was how when she was born, the
umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck, which led to
(38:55):
some brain damage, and she did not speak until she
was six years old. And one of the reasons why
she cried so often is because the only way she
could communicate during that time that she needed something in
that moment was by crying. What does she need? She need?
A food? Yeah, probably a hug, maybe a break from training,
an ice pack, um, but yeah. She's also deeply affected
(39:19):
by her father's suicide when when she was a child,
he got her into swimming and it wasn't until his
death that she switched over to her mother's sport, and
so that transition was deeply emotional for and that this
is also all compounded by the fact that when she
was competing in judo as a teen, that pressure to
make weight made her insecurity over her already athletic and
(39:42):
different body so much worse, and so she became believing.
But now because of that experience in overcoming that experience,
she holds fundraisers for eating disorder clinics and she showed up.
This is an oft told tale. She showed up for
her maximum cover shoot sixteen pounds over five pound fighting weight.
So it's not to glorify her body in a quote
(40:04):
unquote unhealthy state. Yeah, and you've got to appreciate that
about her, that she is very open about having dealt
with a needing disorder. I mean, I'm sure it's an
ongoing issue for her being in a weight class that
she has to maintain. And I wonder too how she
processes her physical appearance playing such a role in her fame. Yeah. Absolutely,
(40:28):
And but this is nothing new women fighters appearances playing
a role in their fame and success and even their
access to resources to be fighters is nothing new. I mean,
not to harp too much on boxing, but that's where
most of the studies are. I mean, there's not a
ton of studies obviously on women in m m a UM,
(40:50):
but there was Journal of Sport and Social Issues study
that looked at women in boxing trying to balance that
whole masculine pugilism with maninity. And in interviews with twelve women,
they found that these women are quite aware of the
numerous stereotypes that exist about them as a result of
(41:11):
their participation in a so called deviant sport deviant for
your gender norms. And they found that these women use
a lot of strategies to sort of manage their identity
in an effort to remain marketable. Because it's not just
about whether you're a good fighter who can throw a punch.
You also have to be marketable. Women have to be
(41:31):
both beautiful and like three times more incredible uh to
get that sort of sponsorship to get promoted in boxing
and wrestling and now m m a uh. This study
also found that women have to they know that they
need to balance their public identity. They can't appear too
masculine or too feminine or else faced negative sanctions. Those
(41:55):
are mainly meaning like social sanctions, people turning on them
if you appear to one way or the other. Well,
and I wonder how much of that two has to
do with the audience. I would assume that for both
boxing and mm A, well there are plenty of female fans,
they're probably a lot more male fans out there, so
maybe that tight rope is even more elevated because of that. Well,
(42:18):
I mean, you've got so when you search for you know,
women's m A, if you just google women's m A
or top Women in m m A, the stuff that
you find most often is like ten hottest women in
m m A, ten you know, busty fighters, blah blah blah.
And I found a Men's Fitness magazine article that was
like the tin top m A Women's m A. And
(42:40):
I was like, oh, this is perfect, great, let's see
what they have to say. And so I was clicking
through and I just realized, Oh, it's just it's just
more of the same, because even though it wasn't build outright,
is like, look at these hot busty babes. In every
description it would show so like the picture would be
this woman at the top of her game, like throwing
a punch, looking really tough, but the description would be like,
(43:00):
here's so and so showing off for but here's so
and so looking so hot in that sports braud. It's like,
this is the only Is this really the only way
that the sport will get covered? I'm wincing, yeah, because
it seems like for now, yes, to some extent. Yeah,
(43:22):
it seems like women's m m A can't really get
elevated beyond those old school attitudes about women boxing in
the back rooms of bars, or jello wrestling or mud
wrestling or topless boxing in the back rooms of bars. Um.
And so that's why it's so disheartening to see stuff
like in men's Fitness magazine where it's purporting to show
(43:44):
these great athletes and and talking about their athleticism, but
it's not. There's no focus on their athleticism. The focus
is still on that titilation factor and how attractive or
unattractive or you know, fit or curvy they are. And
it's surprised then that another study that came out in
fall two thousand four in Qualitative Sociology found that women
(44:10):
competitive boxers are both enabled and constrained in how they
perform their gender um and the author talks about how
there's physical feminism that allows women to transcend these traditional
discourses that limit their physical power. So we would see
that sort of enacted in how you know, Rhonda Rowsy
(44:32):
is beating out, for instance, Floyd Mayweather for best fighter
at the SPS. But at the same time, there's still
that limitation because of discourse about our feminine bodies and
how women are often penalized for being aggressive. Yeah, and
no matter how much women train, they're just never seen
(44:54):
as better than men or as good as men even well,
and that goes back to old tank habit make me
a sandwich saying no, you never go I'm never any
wanted to fight me. Well, because there's the general perception
of women's m m A like I was just saying,
is that it's still this side show sort of. I mean,
Rhonda Rousing is an incredible athlete, as are many of
(45:16):
her opponents. But until we get past this thing of like, oh, well,
women's m m A and women's partition participation in UFC
is purely a platform for Rowsy and everything else is
just so that we can look at half naked women
hitting each other until we are actually able to appreciate
their athleticism for what it is and take them seriously
(45:36):
as athletes. It's just gonna stay this side show and
tank abbots of the world are still just gonna tell
women fighters to make them sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, I
will say that there is, at least to my eye,
nothing sexy at all in the presentation of those you know,
bantam weight UFC fighters. I mean, their hairs back and
they've got on their you know, sports bras and shorts
(45:58):
and it's just like going war and there's almost barely
any time to even try to objectify them. Um. But
you've got to wonder what is next. Where are Rousy
and UFC going with all this? Because um, UFC is
expanding its options for women by adding a straw weight division,
which is one oh six to fifteen pounds and international listeners,
(46:23):
I'm so sorry that we don't have these kilogram conversions
at the ready for you right now. But so they're
adding a straw weight division, but there's nothing for the
heavier fighters, and that's a shame because coming up behind
Rousey you've got Kayla Harrison, who won the gold in
judo at the Olympics, those Olympics that Rousey opted out
(46:45):
of training four And the problem though, coming up behind
Rohnda Rousey is that Harrison weighs in it one, meaning
she she can't fight Rousey. They're not in the same
weight classes. She can't get that sort of fame platform
that even fighting Rousey at all gives you, and she
might not have enough UFC appeal, she said. Fans don't
(47:08):
want to see us big girls out there. It doesn't
matter what I have to offer as an athlete. Part
of the gig is that I'm also pretty and good
in front of a camera and marketable. It's up to
the m A gods to decide that. I feel like
that sums the whole thing up right there. Fans don't
want to see big girls out there. There's still that
(47:29):
that balancing act of the feminine versus the masculem. Like
you said, you know about that study, you can't have
too much of one or the other. And I mean
on on the good side, there is um Invictive Fighting Championships,
which is the largest all women's m m A organization.
They started in twelve as a platform for pro fighters
to compete consistently. However, it's still sort of treated as
(47:51):
a platform to get to UFC, but until UFC expands
and includes more weight classes for women, um or until
rond Arows retires to go make movies or do whatever
she's doing. UM, I just don't know how many more
women are going to be able to actually make that leap.
And I'm not saying they can't. I'm not saying they can't.
I'm just saying that until there's more room for them
(48:14):
both socially and like literally letting them into weight classes,
I'm just wondering how many more women we will see
becoming huge m A names. Well, what do you think
as we close out our convo, what do you think
about her having been so quickly elevated to feminist I
(48:34):
Cotton status. I think this is exactly this is what
I said back when we did our episode on Beyonce,
which is that people are looking for a feminist hero
and Beyonce is not everybody's cup of tea, and neither's
Rhonda Rousy. And what I said back in the Beyonce
episode was that there will be other cupcakes because the
(48:57):
story I told in that episode was like the way
that I talked myself out of, like overspending at the store.
If I see a sweater I like, and I'm like,
oh my god, I have to have that sweater. Or
if I'm in the break room at work and somebody's
brought cupcakes, it's like, oh my god, I have to
have that cupcake. It's like, no, you don't. There will
be other cupcakes, there will be other sweaters, there will
be other feminists. Um, we don't have to so desperately
(49:18):
apply the label of feminist hero to someone like Roonda Rousing,
because really that just elevates her to a point of like, oh, well,
but now we hate her because she said all these
transphobic things. I am not absolutely not excusing her for
any of the transphobic and trans misogynist things that she said.
I think they're despicable and obviously I disagree with them. Um.
(49:38):
Is she a role model for girls in sports? Yeah?
For sure. Has she ever said she's a feminist? Again,
not that we're aware of. Can she still be a
role model? Yes? Should we treat our role models as
heroes up on platforms? Maybe not. I think we need
to take some of that with a grain of salt. Yeah.
I think it's also a case study in prematurely applying
(50:00):
labels and by virtue of that, like you said, having
unrealistic expectations based on that. Yeah, people are not perfect
and we shouldn't look for them to be. Although, Caroline,
I am going to say that Ronda Rowsey is no Beyonce. Okay,
Ronda Rowsing is very tough, but Beyonce is the queen.
That's all I'm gonna say about that. Kristen, I never
(50:22):
meant to imply, And if if you're about to write
me a letter to uh to argue, I don't want
to read it. But I am curious to hear from
other listeners about her, because I mean, like she's everywhere
right now, and curious to know thoughts on her role
model status and also just this general idea of women
(50:45):
in m m A. I mean, there is something a
little bit uncomfortable for me watching m A in general,
but also advocating for women to get in an octagon
and beat each other up. Yeah, So lots of thoughts
are with us mom Stuff at how Stuffwork dot Com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff Podcast. Our messages on Facebook, and we've got
(51:08):
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
I have a letter here from Leanne in response to
our maternity leave episode, she says, I work for Leap.
I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it out. I don't want
Leanna get in trouble one of the largest employers in
(51:30):
my city. I took maternity leave in July. We get
six weeks short term disability and get paid six of
our pay. Then we have the option to take another
six weeks unpaid f m l A for a total
of twelve. I chose to take the full twelve weeks,
and it was an extreme financial burden, even though I
was able to use paid time off for four of
(51:52):
the weeks, I had saved up for over a year.
Upon returning to work, which was the hardest thing I've
ever had to do, my manager said to me, can't
believe you think you needed twelve weeks. You American women
are so lazy. I absolutely love my job, and it
was still hard leaving my new baby at home, so
to hear that really had an impact on me. I
(52:13):
desperately need my job and know that I'm lucky to
have the benefits I do, considering I don't have a
college education. So all I could do was hang my
head and return to work. Leanne Now I actually read
response to Leanne, basically telling her that I couldn't believe
that someone would have the gall to say that because
it's so incredibly insensitive. Well, Leanne is not the only
(52:38):
mom we've heard from who has gotten the lazy implication
from a superior, So I've got a let her here
from Cali. Also about that podcast, she writes, first of all,
I was kind of surprised you never mentioned the very
recent example Ray Mabus has set for the rest of
the federal government by guaranteeing eighteen weeks of pay maternity
(53:00):
leave for all active duty Navy and Marines. Hooray, she writes,
I'm one of the lucky recipients of this policy. My son,
Theodore cute name side note, was born on April seven,
and I was on my six weeks of maternity lead
when Mr Mabis made his announcement. My feelings at the
time were mixed excitement and guilt. I wanted to spend
time with my family, but I also knew that while
(53:22):
I was out, someone else at work would have to
manage my responsibilities for me, and I didn't feel like
I had earned that time off. It didn't help knowing
that my co workers would take issue with it. Many
of them have small children of their own, but didn't
qualify for the extra lead, either because their babies were
too old or because they were civilian contractors and not
active duty military. Once I dealt with those issues, my
(53:44):
husband and I decided it would be best for our
family if I took my remaining sixty days of lead
spread out over a period of time. So I began
taking two to three days off per week, essentially working
part time hours. I worked on a plan with my
superiors that would allow me to do this and still
take care of my responsibilities that work, but it was
made very clear to me that my performance evaluation would
suffer severely and my chances for advancement would be minimal.
(54:08):
To me, it's worth the loss there to be spending
more time with my children. When the word spread to
my superior superior, things got more difficult. They said that
this wasn't the intended use of the maternity lead policy,
and they suggested I work with my superiors to develop
a plan that does fit their interpretation without ever telling
me what that intent is or putting a policy in
place that outlines the rules as they see them. So
(54:31):
it seems I just have to guess at what they mean.
It's so funny to me that it's considered lazy to
take maternity leave. I do so much more work when
I'm at home than when I'm at work. I'm constantly
changing diapers, making food, and cleaning all the time. Being
a military family and thousands of miles away from our
extended families makes it hard to We're very blessed to
(54:52):
be able to have visits from our mothers a few
times a year, but otherwise we have no village to
help raise our children. So thank CALLI into everyone who
has written into us, especially on that issue of maternity
and parental leave. We've heard from so many of you,
and it's so clear that the system is broken. So again,
(55:13):
if you want to share some cheerful stories with us, Mom,
stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you
can send them. For links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts,
including this one with links to our sources. So you
can learn more about Rhonda Rowdy Rowsy, head on over
to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more
(55:37):
on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how
stuff works dot Com
Welcome to stuff. Mom never told you from house to
works not come hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about Ronda
Rowdy Rowsey. That's right. She's so rowdy, so rowdy. Everyone
has been talking about her. And I did not follow
(00:28):
m m A Mixed Martial Arts really at all. I still,
honestly I don't get how, but you can't not pay
attention to rowdy Ronda. Well, I I had managed to
still not really pay attention to rowdy Ronda. Um. I
also don't follow any sort of fights. Dude roommates when
we lived together, was always shelling out big bucks to
(00:48):
watch m m A and UFC fights on pay per view. Um,
the dudes fighting, not not Ronda Rowsy. Um. But I
know that he, for one, is definitely impressed at her prowess.
You can't not be impressed by her. And speaking of
pay per view, he might have been a little frustrated
had he bought her history making fight with Cat Singano
(01:15):
when she knocked her out, Well, I guess it's not
technically like a knockout, but Zingano tapped out, basically surrendering
after only fourteen seconds. I watched the fight Caroline, and
then I watched it again because it happened so quickly
you didn't even see it. But she Rhonda Rousy ended
the fight with her classic armbar move, where she essentially
(01:39):
gets you pinned down and moves her thigh in such
a way that if you move your arms, she'll like
dislocate your elbow. That sounds like the worst. Well, of
course it's the worst, because you gotta win. Feel like, kids,
I'm getting lighthooded just thinking about the well, you would
not last a minute. Well, honestly, all she would have
(02:01):
to do is like do a fate coming at me
move and I'd be like, oh, I'm sorry, I'll stop.
What was I doing? Why am I here? What am
I doing in this scenario? Yeah? I heard part of
um Howard Stern interview with with Rousing and he was
asking her. He said, you know you're so dominant, You're
dominant in the sport, you dominate your fights. What does
that mean? Does it mean you just win really well
(02:23):
and effectively and fast? And she's like, yeah, I guess, yeah,
I mean, because that's that pretty much sums it up.
She is incredibly fast. Yeah, she's super fast, and she
is super dominant. I mean, she dominates the UFC bantam
weight division, and she's won all twelve of her fights
under that banner. Uh and I think she's won eleven
(02:44):
out of twelve in the first round. So I mean
it's almost like her competitors don't stand a chance. People
have started actually booing her at fights because they want
to see her lose, so neither of us. We've fested
up our hardcore m m A fans shocking m m A. Honestly, like,
it's hard for me to watch those matches because I
don't enjoy watching people beat each other up now. But honestly, though,
(03:08):
sometimes it just looks like they're hugging on the ground. Yeah,
it does get huggy and they're like, oh, that's cute,
But then you realize how much it probably smells in
that hug. Oh it's so flippery. A lot of pheromones happening.
So why, though, are we devoting an entire podcast to
Ronda Rowsey? Well, I mean, if she come as no
surprise that she is an interesting character. I mean, she's
(03:30):
a woman in I mean, I think it's an understatement
to say that it's a male dominated sport. UM. She's
also incredibly Like we said, she's dominant, she's super athletic,
she's accomplished, she's determined. UM people have called her an inspiration,
they've hailed her as a feminist, but she's also been
in the news for a lot of trash talking, both
(03:52):
against opponents, against big names in men's boxing and wrestling
and UFC. But she's also had really not some nice
things to say about the trans community. Yeah, and I
think it's worth talking about her because, yes, being this
woman who has made women's m m A and the
(04:13):
UFC fights even possible, but someone who stardom really skyrocketed
in the mainstream this year when she was awarded an
s V for Best Fighter when she beat out Floyd Mayweather,
who was a boxer who also has a history of
domestic violence against UM former partners. And she used that
(04:37):
when to call him out on that, but it was
also a jab at him for having previously mentioned in
an interview that he had no idea who she was, well,
he didn't exactly say that. This was back in July,
Mayweather was asked whether he would fight Ronda Rousy and
he said, I don't even know who he is. Oh yeah,
(04:58):
so playing a little bit dumb. And so after Rondo
won that sp award, um, she said, I can't help
but really say, I wonder how Floyd feels being beaten
by a woman for once. I'd like to see him
pretend not to know who I am now. And it
was really with that quote that she was launched into
the mainstream. I mean, people have been talking about her
(05:20):
for a while, but suddenly she was on every lady
blog that I read, and that's how she came on
my radar. But who is she aside from an sp winning,
smack talking, fierce mm A fighter. Yeah, well, briefly, she
is a former judo player and Olympic medalist turned m
(05:43):
m A fighter. She actually signed with UFC, which is
Ultimate Fighting Championship, m m a's biggest promoter in case
you didn't know back in and she like we said,
it's currently the UFC bantam Weight Champion of the World.
But you also might know her from rolls in Fast
and Fear Is seven, The Expendables three, and the Entourage movie.
(06:04):
Definitely The Expendables three and I was in line for that.
I have that on DVD, Blu ray and VHS Caroline,
it's just gonna say, but do you have it on tape? Um? Yeah,
And so she's kind of following Gina Karana, who's a
fellow m m A fighter. She's kind of following Gina
Karana's example there in terms of transitioning from fighting over
to uh movies. And I wonder though, if it's related,
(06:28):
because she just announced that now at twenty eight, she
just announced that she'll probably be retiring in the next
three or four years because she is so dominant and
now that she's getting some movie roles. I wonder if
she's like, well, I can just transition and not you know,
dominate these women anymore. Yeah. I mean, she's talked about
how she really enjoys acting and being in action films
(06:48):
and also doing her own stunts, So that seems like
something that's super appealing to her and will probably make
her a lot more money than being a female mm
A fighter. Even though she's the best female fighter out there,
the money still isn't as big as what Hollywood would
offer her. Yeah. Absolutely, And it's also not surprising considering
(07:11):
how just in the past few months, I really ever
since the SPS, she has become this almost every woman's heroine.
I mean very quickly. She was escalated from oh this
mm a fighter, too feminist heroine. Yeah, a lot of
people do love her, um, just for her personality, beyond
(07:34):
just the fighting and beyond being an amazing athlete. People
just love her as a person. Hillary Weaver over at Bustle,
for instance, hailed Rousy for calling the shots, saying what's
in her mind, just being open about her fears. In
addition to being at the top of her game and
the fact that Rousy is very vocal about things like
body image, eating disorders, and self esteem. Weaver quotes Rowsies saying,
(07:57):
when I was in school, martial arts made you adore
and I became self conscious that I was too masculine.
I was a sixteen year old girl with ringworm and
cauliflower ears. People made fun of my arms and called
me miss man. It wasn't until I got older that
I realized these people are idiots. I'm fabulous. So how
could you not love her? Some incredible athlete who's preaching
(08:18):
about body acceptance, self acceptance, self esteem. I mean, that
seems like a great role model, and Rowsey has been
pretty quotable. UM in her career. There was one quote
especially that jumped out not only to a lot of
folks on the internet, but also Beyonce Cardinals Um. She
used this quote like up on screen um during her
(08:42):
most recent performance, and it's probably rouseys most famous quote
at this point that she uh said in a ufc
vlog in July. And it's all about being a quote
do nothing bit, that's right. So this quote actually resonated
(09:03):
with a lot of people, obviously including Beyonce, who projected
it at the Maid in America festival. Um. So, Rolesy says,
I have one term for the kind of woman that
my mother raised me not to be. And of course
we'll talk about Rolesy's mother. It's a little bit more later,
she says, and I call it a do nothing bitch,
a kind of chick that just tries to be pretty
and be taken care of by somebody else. That's why
(09:25):
I think it's hilarious from people say my body looks
masculine or something like that. Listen, just because my body
was developed for a purpose other than bleeping millionaires doesn't
mean it's masculine. I think it's femininely badass as bleep
because there's not a single muscle in my body that
isn't for a purpose, because I'm not a do nothing bitch.
(09:45):
And so this quote was hailed by a lot of people,
especially in the feminist blog sphere, as being empowering. Oh
my gosh, she's encouraging women to go out there and
accept themselves and be active and be proud of their bodies,
their athletic bodies that might look different from the model
bo das you see in magazines. But other people, I mean,
it's a mixed bag. Other people definitely took issue with
(10:06):
her sort of perceived finger pointing at a name calling
it other women, you mean, feminists and universally agree on
what a celebrity said. Oh my god, I shocking. Um. Yeah.
A lot of Vaganos writing over at huff Post said
it left the feminist in me quietly cringing, which is
not surprising because there is the woman shamy element of it,
(10:28):
where it's categorizing her as really not like other girls.
She's not one of those do nothing bitches. Um. So
you can see how that could seem feminist that it's
on its face, but have an underbelly of misogyny. Yeah,
I mean I did wonder about that. A lot of
(10:50):
her comments and we'll get into some more of the
not so nice comments in a second, but a lot
of her comments seem to reflect a sort of I
feel maybe an internal lot I don't know if it's
internal as misogyny, but an internalized, uh distaste at the
very least for certain types of women, whether those are
helpless women that she she feels, you know, are just
relying on other people or not lifting a finger like
(11:13):
those d n b s. But Vaganas that Kristen de cited,
was really worried that rond Arousy was like pointing it Housewives.
She's like, well, why are we judging women for for
not wanting to do things? And it's like, well, I don't.
I don't know if that's really the context that she meant. Yeah,
I think reading Housewives into it is a little much,
(11:35):
but it is reminiscent of our Trophy Wives and gold
Diggers episodes where you do have they're just so many,
so many value judgments made on women who dressed themselves
in particular kinds of ways and categorizing them all as
d n b s. Yeah, you could say that that
(11:57):
um can can be unnecessar fairly cruel and reductive. Um.
But I think it's also worth remembering too that at
no point up until now, at least not that I've seen,
has Ronda Rousey self identified as a feminist. Am I right?
I believe you're correct, But so it's interesting to see
(12:19):
how that mantle has been placed on her. I mean,
I think she clearly espouses a lot of you know,
feminist ideals, and it's totally all about gender equality. But
I don't know that she cares to be the feminist
advocate that everyone is trying to read into her career. Yeah,
she's I mean, she's like so so many women who
(12:41):
do get stuck with some label or another in the
media just because of some quotes. And I can appreciate
her her powerful statements about body image and about following
your dreams and being determined and accepting yourself and saying
screw everybody else. Does that mean she's a feminist? I mean,
that's not really for us to say. And there has
also been some backtracking on the feminist bloggo sphere because
(13:05):
of transphobic comments that Rousey has made as well. I mean,
she's she's not a perfect public speaker. In that regard,
even with that bustle piece that you started a few
minutes ago and now has an addendem on there saying, yeah,
she said some really great stuff, but also uh, some
not so great stuff. Yeah. Her attitudes about trans women
(13:27):
in particular are far from unique among m m A
and UFC fighters. Um, there's a lot of conversation around
this because of just the physical nature and the violent
nature of these types of competitions. So back in two,
UFC fighter Matt Mitrianni made some transphobic comments about fighter
(13:50):
Fallon Fox, a trans woman who came out that year,
and Mitrianni was suspended for them not cut and Rousey
responded by saying about fallon Fox, she can try hormones,
chopper pecker off, but it's still the same bone structure
a man has. It's an advantage. I don't think it's fair.
I understand the UFC doesn't want to be associated with
(14:11):
views like matrionis. I'm also glad they didn't straight cut him.
And that's a sentiment echoed by UFC President Dana White,
who's Rousey's boss effectively, who disagrees with that whole notion
of CIS and trans women fighting each other. He also
said bone structure is different, hands are bigger, jaws bigger,
everything is bigger. I don't believe in it. So this
is not Rousey is far from the only person in
(14:34):
m m A who's espousing these pretty terrible and exclusionary views,
and nor was this one time incident in Rousey told
the highly esteemed TMZ news outlet that she wouldn't fight
a trans woman, specifically referring to fallon Fox, saying it's
a case by case scenario thing. I've tried to research
(14:55):
it a lot. I feel like, if you go through
puberty as a man, it's not something can reverse. There's
no undo button on that, even though there has been
research on it and it's found that hormone therapy does
diminish your muscle mass. I mean, if you're going if
you're a trans woman going through hormone therapy, I should say, yeah,
(15:17):
this this strikes me as uh people not just rousy,
I mean definitely rousy, but people in m m A
having uh, definitely preconceived notions and prejudices towards trans people
that I think a little education would go a long
way towards combating these attitudes. But yeah, No, I mean
her smack talk. She is a smack talker and her
(15:37):
smack talk does not stop at the trans community. Um.
She made assertions about wrestler Sarah McCann's abilities and dedication
because she's a mother. Rousey says, I'm more of a
fighter than she is. She has a kid at home
and she has to go home to that kid. I
can afford to be selfish where she can't. I'm willing
to die in there, which, of course is like are
(15:58):
we are? We really will to die in the octagon,
Rhonda Rousey. Um, And I understand that that's more of
like a I'm going to prove myself at how dedicated
I am, and I'm going to help promote myself on
social media by smack talking my opponents. I understand that
this is nothing new in the world of fighting, whatever
type of fighting it is, whether you're a man or
a woman. However, again, it goes back to like feminist
(16:22):
in me, like putting my head in my hands and
being like, let's not talk smack about women who have kids. Well,
and it's how gendered A lot of these jabs are,
which does seem like a product of that mm A environment. UM,
but also too. I mean this is this is not
exclusive to m m A and UFC UM. But for instance,
(16:46):
she has an ongoing feud with another fighter named Misha
Cupcake Kate, and she said once I think she probably
wears a push up bra under her sports bra. So
she's criticizing her for her apparent girlliness, which is crazy
to me because Rolesy herself has to straddle that line
of be the aggressive fighter who's in tip top shape
(17:12):
and can knock out other women, but you have to
be beautiful and sexy and conventionally attractive while you do it.
I'm not saying that's right. I don't think it's right
that you should have to look one way or another
to be an athlete of any kind. What I'm saying is,
it's just interesting that here you have Rousy, who's part
of her success and her promotion by UFC, who previously
(17:35):
had the position of we will never have women in
UFC is due to the fact that she is. I mean,
it's it's not entirely due the fact that she's beautiful.
She's obviously an incredible fighter and an incredible athlete. UM,
but so much of that is like, well, she's also
really pretty, which helps are promoting her. Yeah. I mean
she's posed on the cover of Maxim before um and
(17:58):
not to not to say that that a judgment against her,
but it does seem like she kind of wants to
have it both ways a little bit. You can't. You
can't judge another woman negatively for her girliness if you
yourself are posing nude and magazines to show off your
beautiful figure. I mean she's I mean, she's got a
(18:18):
great bode. She's a freaking athlete, you know, to freaking athlete,
freaking athlete, and I think anyone would be hard pressed
to deny that Dana White, the UFC president, was not
partially persuaded to position her in terms of, you know,
kind of opening up UFC two women fighters if she
(18:39):
were not as conventionally attractive as she is. Yeah, because
we'll get to his reasoning behind excluding women in a
little bit. But Rousing also criticized Chris Cyborg Justina. I
love nicknames by the way, for fighters she's in general,
It's like it's the same thing with a roller Derby names.
I just love them. But yeah, so Chris Cyborg Justino
(19:00):
Stedd positive for an anabolic steroid. A while back, and
along the same lines of her transphobic comments, Rousy said
that Justino ceased to be a woman anymore. In a
perfect world, she would be a girl and not an it.
So yeah, so not she's not up on the uh
(19:21):
acceptance thing. But when I read that, what it reminded
me of was that quote. I believe it was two
Sports Illustrated where she talked about growing up and kids
criticized her and made fun of her and called her
miss man. And here she is doing a similar kind
of thing to another woman. Yes, we have some internalized things,
(19:42):
I was saying. That's what I'm saying. Oh man, you
know what scares me right now is thinking about Rhonda
Rousey listening to this podcast where we're like critiquing what
she says in her you know, wanting to come and
and beat us up in an octagon. Well, luckily there's
no octagons at the Health Stuff Works headquarters. Yes, this
podcast studio where in is a square, and luckily there
(20:03):
is like sound dampening squishy material on the wall. So
she did come in here and like body slam us,
it would be soft, Yeah, it would be against patting.
So but I do Bruce easily anyway, me too. But
lest you think that Rowsey has not been on the
receiving of smack talk herself, we should tell you about
(20:24):
former UFC fighter and wrestler Tank Abbott, who had some
not so nice things to say about both Rowsy and
women in general, women fighters in particular. But so he
on a podcast after Rousies comments, challenging Mayweather to a
fight and saying that, oh, how do you feel, how's
it feel to be beaten by woman? Uh? Tank Abbott
(20:45):
said that Mayweather would absolutely win and said she's a girl.
It's all about this emotional stuff. And he ended up
challenging Rowsey or any woman to a fight for free.
He said he wouldn't even train. Uh, and he said
I'll win and you'll have to make me a sandwich.
He also made comments, and I won't say the exact quote,
(21:07):
but he also made comments along the lines of but
you have to be a real girl. He sounds like
a trollish stuff whenever told you YouTube commenter tank is
that you Tank four three five. But speaking of a
possible Mayweather Rousy fight, I thought I was also interesting
that she has said that she doesn't want to fight
him because she does not think that it would be
(21:30):
healthy for the American public or the public at large
to see a guy and a girl fighting each other
like that. Well yeah, she specifically said for a man
to hit a woman on TV. Yeah, so that's probably
not a fight that you and I are going to
see anytime soon. And hopefully the fight between Rod Arousey
and two feminist podcasters also not going to happen. Hey Rhonda, Hey,
(21:54):
hey girl. Hey. Well, so there's obviously a lot of controversy.
She's she's not a perfect public figure. Who is um
But as we said, a lot of the seems like
it might be some internalized misogyny or internalized conflict over
feminine appearance versus maybe masculine activities. So why are people
(22:19):
so enamored with this woman? What's what's her story? And first,
before we get to her story in particular her backstory,
which in and of itself is pretty incredible, I think
part of the love and affection and fascination, if you
don't have any love for her, is the fact that
she's broken through so many walls to get where she is,
(22:41):
so many stereotypes, so many cultural fears around women's abilities,
and what's appropriate and what will sell. Yeah, being a
woman who is known for being able to beat people
up in as few as fourteen seconds, who is also
considered a sex symbol to some is revolutionary because not surprisingly,
(23:07):
we we haven't always really known what to do with
pugilistic women kind of they've kind of always freaked us out. Um.
So The Guardian had a great history on women fighters
and mentioned how in the seventeen seventies in London you
have the first recorded modern boxing match between Elizabeth a
Championist Wilkinson and Martha Jones. So I note, Martha, where's
(23:32):
your nickname? I know, come on, old Matha, someone if
you know Martha Jones's nickname please tell us. Maybe it
just wasn't recorded because the Cockney champions won. But I
mean it was definitely women's boxing, women's fighting. It was
definitely considered abhorrent and a side show, and it was
treated as such. Even in the nineteen no for Olympics,
(23:54):
women's boxing was just an exhibition, while men's of course
was part of the official competition. Yeah, I mean, he's
still have stuff like women's topless boxing, which I know
just hopefully they have hopefully I'm sure they have rules.
And despite the attitudes though that existed about or maybe
because of UH women's participation in boxing and weightlifting and wrestling.
(24:18):
We have one of our first celebrities in America in
the early twentieth century, and that's pro strong woman Katie
Sandwina and Stephiemist in History Class didn't episode on her,
but we also talked about Sandwena in our last episode
on women in weightlifting. But Sanduena was another case who
you know, maybe she's the original Rousy. Even though she
(24:40):
didn't fight, she was a weightlifter and a strong woman. Um.
She also had that case of being incredibly strong and
having these you know, quote unquote masculine abilities. But her
beauty was touted above just about anything else and UH
news outlets that sounds like a modern term right. HER's
journalists at the time talked about her maternal skills and
(25:04):
instincts and the fact that she had these children and
she was still motherly. Don't worry everyone. She's got a
large head, which puts her beautiful features into stark relief.
She's not too muscily, not too fat, She's tall and
like a goddess. Well, because they had to sell her
that way. Otherwise she would be considered grotesque if she
were divorced from conventional femininity than this woman who I
(25:29):
loved that one of her like her party tricks, so
to speak, was lifting her husband above her head. But
if she were not as pretty as she was, she
would have been more of a freak show attraction than
a Wringling Brothers, you know, center stage attraction. Yeah, exactly,
um and and I think, just to put in perspective
(25:49):
the tone that was still used decades and decades and
decades after that first fight, that first boxing match in England.
In England's conservative Home Secretary worked tirelessly to prevent a
woman's boxing match from taking place, saying he never thought
that such a disgraceful exhibition would be staged in this country.
(26:13):
So clearly women's boxing not catching on with everyone. Yeah, no,
it's a whole don't hit a girl thing. Even even
girls can't hit girls. We can scratch each other's eyeballs
out and pull hair, but no punching. Well, don't, yeah,
don't hit women. Women shouldn't hit each other, and not
in public, and not dressed like that. Please go back home.
This is too masculine well, and and punching someone in
(26:33):
the face too. That's a woman's prize is her face.
How could you do that? Um? When we get into
the nineteen forties and fifties, though, we do see women's
wrestling and roller Derby, What up to all of our stuff?
I've never told you roller Derby enthusiasts. I know you're
out there because we hear from you. Um. These really
start to become big things, which helped ussher in boxing
(26:55):
because think about these kinds of contact sports. Um, it's
not so surprised. I think that that that makes more
of a way for boxing to happen. Yeah, and so
then you get you start to see more, um, sort
of legit women's boxing celebrities rise. At this time, you've
got the four ft eleven battling Barbara Buttrick a k a.
(27:16):
The Mighty Adam meaning Adam. Wait, that's a weight class.
She fought bare knuckle matches at fairs in Britain against
anyone who'd fight her. Just like, come on up, fight
fight old Barbara. Babs. You do a whole podcast on Babs.
I don't know more. I think so too. But yeah,
she moved to America and that's when she went pro.
I think America had slightly different attitudes toward boxing, not
(27:38):
that it was, you know, in everybody's living rooms, but
slightly different attitudes than they had in England. She ended
up winning one of the first of Texas is boxing
licenses for women, and she and the other one I
think there, I think there was just one other one
ended up going head to head, and when Buttrick one,
she became the world's first woman boxing champ. And I
(27:58):
think it's worth noting too that for her last fight
in nineteen sixty she was four months pregnant. Barbara the
four ft eleven Barbara battle in Buttrick was four months pregnant. Meanwhile,
in England, no offense British listeners, women's boxing was still
more of a titilating freak show, and women boxers were
(28:18):
often on the same bill as topless fighters. So it's
just a novelty women beating each other up. All these
like back room barbawls where women, you know, it's the
same thing with like hawk fighting, yellow wrestling, mud wrestling.
It's like, oh my god, look at the woman boxer.
It's such a gross anomaly. But we're turned on at
(28:38):
the same time. Um. But it's interesting because once the
nineteen nineties hit, uh oh wow, I didn't even mean
to do that. Oh my god, I'm finally, I'm finally
getting there with the punk you got the stuff kid, finally. Um.
But women's pro boxing starts to get more legit as
do girls and women's wrestling teams. It's obviously still not
(29:02):
fully accepted, but it's becoming more legitimate. More legitimate clubs
are forming around these activities. In England, for instance, in
the Amateur Boxing Association lifted it's one and sixteen year
ban on female fighters, and in n Jane Couch became
the first legal professional boxer. Around the same time, but
(29:23):
a little bit earlier, in the US, USA Boxing finally
lifts its ban on women, followed by the Amateur International
Boxing Association, and around the same time we start to
see women entering m m A. So the technical history
of mixed martial arts goes back for a very long
(29:45):
time because it's a combination of these very ancient sports
like judo and also boxing, kickboxing, moy tai wrestling, and grappling,
which I feel like that's just something I do want
to league basis mentally grappling with reality. And now you're
a champ, though you're the woman's number one world champ,
(30:08):
was grappling with reality. Have a look of shock on
my face right now, listeners. I can't even see myself,
but I can feel it. Um. Yeah. And you know,
Krista mentioned judo, and indeed many of the early women
who went into m A had Judo backgrounds, as does
Rhonda Rowsy, like we mentioned, um and so you know,
I mentioned how the mid nineties that's when women start
(30:30):
getting into m m A. Well, UFC Ultimate Fighting Championship
promoting Company started in ninety three, and of course it's
all dudes and around this time. It's interesting that looking
at UFC and m m A, the American Medical Association
also called it abhorrent. Yeah. Senator John mccainny even like
(30:51):
spoke out against it at one point just because it
is so so violent and there are technically no rules,
well they're used to be no rules. There were no
weight classes, no rules. It's basically like just go in
there and trying not to kill him. Um. But eventually
to be taken seriously as a sport, not just a spectacle,
(31:13):
which of course is still a spectacle. They had to have,
you know, rules in place to keep you from dying.
So now a referee can intervene if it looks like
someone is about to be a little too claw Bard.
Sure and yeah, and then you have the weight class
divisions and things to make it to make it more
like the rules of boxing, so to speak. But it's
(31:35):
not until two thousand seven that women's m m A
catches on thanks to Showtime broadcasting a fight featuring Gina Krana,
who we mentioned earlier, and Krona's career starts to gain
steam and UFC rival Strike Force ends up sponsoring another
fight on Showtime. She eventually crosses over into film with
the movie Haywire, which I meant to see. I never saw,
(31:57):
neither did I. I wonder if it was any good
listeners let us know. Then, in two thousand eleven, not
so long ago, UFC president Dana White vowed that women
would never fight in his organization. And why here we
go quote. I went to a fight up in northern
(32:19):
California about eight or nine years ago, and I saw
this woman that looked like Chuck Ladell fight this girl
who looked like she had about five tybo classes, so
essentially saying there's not enough skill out there and it
would be un sexy to do it. Basically, if you
don't look like a supermodel and or you can't throw
(32:41):
a punch, what's the point. But there were octagon girls
who were the sexily clad, attractive women who would you know,
between the rounds walk rock around the octagon and hold
up their little cards. Sure, sure, absolutely so. Yeah, people
who are fans of boxing and other things like that
shouldn't be surprised by that. But Danta White does change
(33:03):
his tune obviously, I mean spoiler. Ronda Rousey is a
champion fighter. Uh she though, is specifically the one who
got White to change his tune, and I love semi
sarcastically the way he puts it, saying, this whole women's
power movement that's going on right now is crazy. Ronda
has been the whole thing. Ronda is the one that
(33:24):
launched this whole thing. I wouldn't have done it if
it wasn't for Ronda. She's the one that convinced me
to do it. And it's the best decision I've ever
made because it's putting money in his pocket. So of course,
he loves it. So how did Ronda Rousey come to be?
She did not come out of the womb, you know,
body slamming people. She didn't come out of zeus head
(33:45):
fully for yeah, but practically yeah. So Rousey is a
second generation judo player. Her mom and Maria DeMars in
four was the first American male or female, just the
first American to win gold at the World Judo Championship,
and Rousy, thanks to her training, was ranked number one
(34:06):
in America at just sixteen years old. She dropped out
of high school, and she's talked about how, you know,
even as a teenager, people rooted against her because she
was so dominant as an American girl in a sport
that was overwhelmingly European and Asian. And her success has
had a lot to do with her mom's really intensive
(34:30):
approach to training. I mean, she talked about at one
point how when she was in middle or high school,
where she would have sometimes up to fifteen bouts every day,
and in between her mom would not allow her to
talk to other kids. She would have to go and
sit down and focus on winning. That's isolating, it's very isolating.
(34:53):
And we we read a lot about how Ron Rowsing
is known for crying. She cries all the time, and
she says it's part actually because of how I mean,
it's kind of emotionally triggering for her because she didn't
always like having to do all of this the studo
all the time when she was a kid um But
all of that judo paid off in two thousand eight
(35:15):
at the Beijing Olympics, she won the bronze and she
was the first American woman to medal in judo. And
she ended up opting out of training for the twelve Games,
so she had her whole future in front of her.
She's like, I can't be an Olympian forever. What am
I gonna do? I'm gonna go to college. Should I
join the Coast Guard I could jump out of helicopters
and save people. Or should I go pro m m A?
(35:36):
What happened Caroline? I have no idea spoilers She joined
the Coast Guard? No No. In ten she makes a
decision to go for for m m A. She trains
with a judo competitor who had earned a UFC contract.
She learns the basics of boxing in my Tie, and
she starts out in amateur fights, but The thing is,
(35:56):
opponents weren't really so sure about going up against an
Olympian who hold her own against dudes at her gym.
Her first fight lasted just thirty seconds and earned her dollars.
Then in two thousand eleven, she joins the Strike Force roster,
seeing it as a launching pad to UFC. And then
in twelve she and opponent Mischa Tate build up anticipation
(36:20):
for their fight through interviews and sniping at each other
over social media. And I mean this was something though
that was also predicated by them both being coaches on
a UFC reality show, and I mean, ron A Rousy
did not mask any of her loathing for Tate, and
(36:40):
when the fight happens, Rousey dominates, no surprise, and UFC
takes notice. That's right, So later on that year they
end up signing her, and on top of that, they
announced their building a woman's bantam weight division, which is
one pounds centered around her. So they're from the get
go established her as the star. And it was really
(37:03):
her growing fame that eased Dana white skepticism about including
women in his organization. Because you have to keep in
mind that the year that she joined the Strike Force roster,
and she talks about how, like I envisioned going to
UFC after this. That was the same year that he
was like, nope, no women never. So this woman is
clearly determined. Um. But also her coaching stint on that
(37:27):
reality show, you know, her fame is growing. She's posing
Newton Magazine, she's giving lots of interviews, she's dominating other fighters,
and she's becoming the main attraction on pay per view fights.
All of this which, of course, you know, equal sign dollars,
signed dollar, signed dollar sign definitely serving to ease white
skepticism about including women. But this is also what's lad
(37:50):
a lot of fans to kind of turn on her
because she is very cocky, or at least plays up
the cocky arrogance, which is untrasted to her crying or
because she's known to to just weep yeah a lot.
But also she's become she's become the heel, right, so
because she nobody can beat her, she's almost become sort
(38:13):
of this villain. Her cockiness and her confidence, plus the
fact that she you know, never loses, people are sort
of painting her to be the villain. And I think
part of her this new Yorker interview with her was
so fantastic. Part of her loves it and loves the
attention and to screw him, and then the other part
of her, it's like, but why are they booing? Ma,
(38:33):
I'm so good and not a mean person. Yeah, she says,
whenever people talk about how cocky and arrogant I am,
it blows me away because I worked so hard to
develop self confidence. Because one thing we didn't mention a
few minutes ago was how when she was born, the
umbilical cord was wrapped around her neck, which led to
(38:55):
some brain damage, and she did not speak until she
was six years old. And one of the reasons why
she cried so often is because the only way she
could communicate during that time that she needed something in
that moment was by crying. What does she need? She need?
A food? Yeah, probably a hug, maybe a break from training,
an ice pack, um, but yeah. She's also deeply affected
(39:19):
by her father's suicide when when she was a child,
he got her into swimming and it wasn't until his
death that she switched over to her mother's sport, and
so that transition was deeply emotional for and that this
is also all compounded by the fact that when she
was competing in judo as a teen, that pressure to
make weight made her insecurity over her already athletic and
(39:42):
different body so much worse, and so she became believing.
But now because of that experience in overcoming that experience,
she holds fundraisers for eating disorder clinics and she showed up.
This is an oft told tale. She showed up for
her maximum cover shoot sixteen pounds over five pound fighting weight.
So it's not to glorify her body in a quote
(40:04):
unquote unhealthy state. Yeah, and you've got to appreciate that
about her, that she is very open about having dealt
with a needing disorder. I mean, I'm sure it's an
ongoing issue for her being in a weight class that
she has to maintain. And I wonder too how she
processes her physical appearance playing such a role in her fame. Yeah. Absolutely,
(40:28):
And but this is nothing new women fighters appearances playing
a role in their fame and success and even their
access to resources to be fighters is nothing new. I mean,
not to harp too much on boxing, but that's where
most of the studies are. I mean, there's not a
ton of studies obviously on women in m m a UM,
(40:50):
but there was Journal of Sport and Social Issues study
that looked at women in boxing trying to balance that
whole masculine pugilism with maninity. And in interviews with twelve women,
they found that these women are quite aware of the
numerous stereotypes that exist about them as a result of
(41:11):
their participation in a so called deviant sport deviant for
your gender norms. And they found that these women use
a lot of strategies to sort of manage their identity
in an effort to remain marketable. Because it's not just
about whether you're a good fighter who can throw a punch.
You also have to be marketable. Women have to be
(41:31):
both beautiful and like three times more incredible uh to
get that sort of sponsorship to get promoted in boxing
and wrestling and now m m a uh. This study
also found that women have to they know that they
need to balance their public identity. They can't appear too
masculine or too feminine or else faced negative sanctions. Those
(41:55):
are mainly meaning like social sanctions, people turning on them
if you appear to one way or the other. Well,
and I wonder how much of that two has to
do with the audience. I would assume that for both
boxing and mm A, well there are plenty of female fans,
they're probably a lot more male fans out there, so
maybe that tight rope is even more elevated because of that. Well,
(42:18):
I mean, you've got so when you search for you know,
women's m A, if you just google women's m A
or top Women in m m A, the stuff that
you find most often is like ten hottest women in
m m A, ten you know, busty fighters, blah blah blah.
And I found a Men's Fitness magazine article that was
like the tin top m A Women's m A. And
(42:40):
I was like, oh, this is perfect, great, let's see
what they have to say. And so I was clicking
through and I just realized, Oh, it's just it's just
more of the same, because even though it wasn't build outright,
is like, look at these hot busty babes. In every
description it would show so like the picture would be
this woman at the top of her game, like throwing
a punch, looking really tough, but the description would be like,
(43:00):
here's so and so showing off for but here's so
and so looking so hot in that sports braud. It's like,
this is the only Is this really the only way
that the sport will get covered? I'm wincing, yeah, because
it seems like for now, yes, to some extent. Yeah,
(43:22):
it seems like women's m m A can't really get
elevated beyond those old school attitudes about women boxing in
the back rooms of bars, or jello wrestling or mud
wrestling or topless boxing in the back rooms of bars. Um.
And so that's why it's so disheartening to see stuff
like in men's Fitness magazine where it's purporting to show
(43:44):
these great athletes and and talking about their athleticism, but
it's not. There's no focus on their athleticism. The focus
is still on that titilation factor and how attractive or
unattractive or you know, fit or curvy they are. And
it's surprised then that another study that came out in
fall two thousand four in Qualitative Sociology found that women
(44:10):
competitive boxers are both enabled and constrained in how they
perform their gender um and the author talks about how
there's physical feminism that allows women to transcend these traditional
discourses that limit their physical power. So we would see
that sort of enacted in how you know, Rhonda Rowsy
(44:32):
is beating out, for instance, Floyd Mayweather for best fighter
at the SPS. But at the same time, there's still
that limitation because of discourse about our feminine bodies and
how women are often penalized for being aggressive. Yeah, and
no matter how much women train, they're just never seen
(44:54):
as better than men or as good as men even well,
and that goes back to old tank habit make me
a sandwich saying no, you never go I'm never any
wanted to fight me. Well, because there's the general perception
of women's m m A like I was just saying,
is that it's still this side show sort of. I mean,
Rhonda Rousing is an incredible athlete, as are many of
(45:16):
her opponents. But until we get past this thing of like, oh, well,
women's m m A and women's partition participation in UFC
is purely a platform for Rowsy and everything else is
just so that we can look at half naked women
hitting each other until we are actually able to appreciate
their athleticism for what it is and take them seriously
(45:36):
as athletes. It's just gonna stay this side show and
tank abbots of the world are still just gonna tell
women fighters to make them sandwiches. Yeah, I mean, I
will say that there is, at least to my eye,
nothing sexy at all in the presentation of those you know,
bantam weight UFC fighters. I mean, their hairs back and
they've got on their you know, sports bras and shorts
(45:58):
and it's just like going war and there's almost barely
any time to even try to objectify them. Um. But
you've got to wonder what is next. Where are Rousy
and UFC going with all this? Because um, UFC is
expanding its options for women by adding a straw weight division,
which is one oh six to fifteen pounds and international listeners,
(46:23):
I'm so sorry that we don't have these kilogram conversions
at the ready for you right now. But so they're
adding a straw weight division, but there's nothing for the
heavier fighters, and that's a shame because coming up behind
Rousey you've got Kayla Harrison, who won the gold in
judo at the Olympics, those Olympics that Rousey opted out
(46:45):
of training four And the problem though, coming up behind
Rohnda Rousey is that Harrison weighs in it one, meaning
she she can't fight Rousey. They're not in the same
weight classes. She can't get that sort of fame platform
that even fighting Rousey at all gives you, and she
might not have enough UFC appeal, she said. Fans don't
(47:08):
want to see us big girls out there. It doesn't
matter what I have to offer as an athlete. Part
of the gig is that I'm also pretty and good
in front of a camera and marketable. It's up to
the m A gods to decide that. I feel like
that sums the whole thing up right there. Fans don't
want to see big girls out there. There's still that
(47:29):
that balancing act of the feminine versus the masculem. Like
you said, you know about that study, you can't have
too much of one or the other. And I mean
on on the good side, there is um Invictive Fighting Championships,
which is the largest all women's m m A organization.
They started in twelve as a platform for pro fighters
to compete consistently. However, it's still sort of treated as
(47:51):
a platform to get to UFC, but until UFC expands
and includes more weight classes for women, um or until
rond Arows retires to go make movies or do whatever
she's doing. UM, I just don't know how many more
women are going to be able to actually make that leap.
And I'm not saying they can't. I'm not saying they can't.
I'm just saying that until there's more room for them
(48:14):
both socially and like literally letting them into weight classes,
I'm just wondering how many more women we will see
becoming huge m A names. Well, what do you think
as we close out our convo, what do you think
about her having been so quickly elevated to feminist I
(48:34):
Cotton status. I think this is exactly this is what
I said back when we did our episode on Beyonce,
which is that people are looking for a feminist hero
and Beyonce is not everybody's cup of tea, and neither's
Rhonda Rousy. And what I said back in the Beyonce
episode was that there will be other cupcakes because the
(48:57):
story I told in that episode was like the way
that I talked myself out of, like overspending at the store.
If I see a sweater I like, and I'm like,
oh my god, I have to have that sweater. Or
if I'm in the break room at work and somebody's
brought cupcakes, it's like, oh my god, I have to
have that cupcake. It's like, no, you don't. There will
be other cupcakes, there will be other sweaters, there will
be other feminists. Um, we don't have to so desperately
(49:18):
apply the label of feminist hero to someone like Roonda Rousing,
because really that just elevates her to a point of like, oh, well,
but now we hate her because she said all these
transphobic things. I am not absolutely not excusing her for
any of the transphobic and trans misogynist things that she said.
I think they're despicable and obviously I disagree with them. Um.
(49:38):
Is she a role model for girls in sports? Yeah?
For sure. Has she ever said she's a feminist? Again,
not that we're aware of. Can she still be a
role model? Yes? Should we treat our role models as
heroes up on platforms? Maybe not. I think we need
to take some of that with a grain of salt. Yeah.
I think it's also a case study in prematurely applying
(50:00):
labels and by virtue of that, like you said, having
unrealistic expectations based on that. Yeah, people are not perfect
and we shouldn't look for them to be. Although, Caroline,
I am going to say that Ronda Rowsey is no Beyonce. Okay,
Ronda Rowsing is very tough, but Beyonce is the queen.
That's all I'm gonna say about that. Kristen, I never
(50:22):
meant to imply, And if if you're about to write
me a letter to uh to argue, I don't want
to read it. But I am curious to hear from
other listeners about her, because I mean, like she's everywhere
right now, and curious to know thoughts on her role
model status and also just this general idea of women
(50:45):
in m m A. I mean, there is something a
little bit uncomfortable for me watching m A in general,
but also advocating for women to get in an octagon
and beat each other up. Yeah, So lots of thoughts
are with us mom Stuff at how Stuffwork dot Com
is our email address. You can also tweet us at
mom Stuff Podcast. Our messages on Facebook, and we've got
(51:08):
a couple of messages to share with you right now.
I have a letter here from Leanne in response to
our maternity leave episode, she says, I work for Leap.
I'm gonna I'm gonna leave it out. I don't want
Leanna get in trouble one of the largest employers in
(51:30):
my city. I took maternity leave in July. We get
six weeks short term disability and get paid six of
our pay. Then we have the option to take another
six weeks unpaid f m l A for a total
of twelve. I chose to take the full twelve weeks,
and it was an extreme financial burden, even though I
was able to use paid time off for four of
(51:52):
the weeks, I had saved up for over a year.
Upon returning to work, which was the hardest thing I've
ever had to do, my manager said to me, can't
believe you think you needed twelve weeks. You American women
are so lazy. I absolutely love my job, and it
was still hard leaving my new baby at home, so
to hear that really had an impact on me. I
(52:13):
desperately need my job and know that I'm lucky to
have the benefits I do, considering I don't have a
college education. So all I could do was hang my
head and return to work. Leanne Now I actually read
response to Leanne, basically telling her that I couldn't believe
that someone would have the gall to say that because
it's so incredibly insensitive. Well, Leanne is not the only
(52:38):
mom we've heard from who has gotten the lazy implication
from a superior, So I've got a let her here
from Cali. Also about that podcast, she writes, first of all,
I was kind of surprised you never mentioned the very
recent example Ray Mabus has set for the rest of
the federal government by guaranteeing eighteen weeks of pay maternity
(53:00):
leave for all active duty Navy and Marines. Hooray, she writes,
I'm one of the lucky recipients of this policy. My son,
Theodore cute name side note, was born on April seven,
and I was on my six weeks of maternity lead
when Mr Mabis made his announcement. My feelings at the
time were mixed excitement and guilt. I wanted to spend
time with my family, but I also knew that while
(53:22):
I was out, someone else at work would have to
manage my responsibilities for me, and I didn't feel like
I had earned that time off. It didn't help knowing
that my co workers would take issue with it. Many
of them have small children of their own, but didn't
qualify for the extra lead, either because their babies were
too old or because they were civilian contractors and not
active duty military. Once I dealt with those issues, my
(53:44):
husband and I decided it would be best for our
family if I took my remaining sixty days of lead
spread out over a period of time. So I began
taking two to three days off per week, essentially working
part time hours. I worked on a plan with my
superiors that would allow me to do this and still
take care of my responsibilities that work, but it was
made very clear to me that my performance evaluation would
suffer severely and my chances for advancement would be minimal.
(54:08):
To me, it's worth the loss there to be spending
more time with my children. When the word spread to
my superior superior, things got more difficult. They said that
this wasn't the intended use of the maternity lead policy,
and they suggested I work with my superiors to develop
a plan that does fit their interpretation without ever telling
me what that intent is or putting a policy in
place that outlines the rules as they see them. So
(54:31):
it seems I just have to guess at what they mean.
It's so funny to me that it's considered lazy to
take maternity leave. I do so much more work when
I'm at home than when I'm at work. I'm constantly
changing diapers, making food, and cleaning all the time. Being
a military family and thousands of miles away from our
extended families makes it hard to We're very blessed to
(54:52):
be able to have visits from our mothers a few
times a year, but otherwise we have no village to
help raise our children. So thank CALLI into everyone who
has written into us, especially on that issue of maternity
and parental leave. We've heard from so many of you,
and it's so clear that the system is broken. So again,
(55:13):
if you want to share some cheerful stories with us, Mom,
stuff at how stuff works dot com is where you
can send them. For links to all of our social
media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts,
including this one with links to our sources. So you
can learn more about Rhonda Rowdy Rowsy, head on over
to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com for more
(55:37):
on this and thousands of other topics. Does it how
stuff works dot Com
Stuff Mom Never Told You News
Hosts And Creators
Anney Reese
Samantha McVey
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.