Sexism and Science Communication LIVE

2015 was the year we started caring about sexism in science, WIRED magazine recently declared. In this live Stuff Mom Never Told You conversation at SxSW Interactive, Cristen and Caroline speak with astronomer and science communicator Nicole Cabrera about how harassment and discrimination affect scientific discovery, STEM online activism and why all of us have a vested interest in resolving these issues.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline, I feel like we're
gonna be so redundant even saying this, because our listeners
are about to hear our intro all over again. Well,

(00:26):
but it's great that you're going to hear it again
because it's actually interactive and kind of special. It's very special.
So today you're going to hear our live Stuff Mom
Never Told You show from south By Southwest. And to
any of you who are listening to this right now
who were there at speak Easy in downtown Austin, thank

(00:47):
you so much for coming. It was a ton of fun.
It was a ton of fun, and it was it's
always so great to meet you guys, um and to
remember that they're amazing people out there, men and women
are like who listen to us, that it's not to
us in this padded cell of a recording studio. And
I was so glad that so many people got to
hear all of the amazing things that our guests, Nicole

(01:10):
Cabrera had to say. And since Nicole is going to
introduce herself in the live show in which we talk
about sexism and science communication with a focus on astronomy
for a reason that will make itself very known very soon. Caroline,
should we just dive right in. Let's dive right in. Alright, folks,
So here you go live from south By, Southwest. It's

(01:33):
stuff Mom never told you. Since this is being recorded,
we're gonna start. We're really just gonna pretend that we're
all in the stuff Mom never told you studio together,
although be glad that we aren't because it's a tiny room.
It would be very uncomfortable. Um, but this is our

(01:53):
stuff I've never told you studio today, and we're gonna
start our show the same way we start all of
our podcast us. We're gonna say our names and then
when I point to you, say and I'm and then
say your name and it will sound, you know, just
like hot mess. You'll love it. It's gonna add to
the effect. All right, you ready, I'm homeless, like it's

(02:15):
a steeringmail. Let's do it, okay, cool, Hello, and welcome
to the podcast. I'm Kristin, and I'm Caroline, and I'm Nicole.
I caught all of those names and I'll remember every
one of them. That's so good. Uh. So today we're
talking about sexism and science communication, and we're gonna let

(02:37):
Nicole talk a little bit about UM. Why it's so
relevant to talking about it here at south By Southwest
Interactive because technology is a huge part of these conversations
that are going on. So, first of all, Nicole, would
you just introduce yourself to our wonderful audience. Sure. My
name is Nicole Cabrera Salazar and I am a PhD

(02:59):
student at George Say University. I study astronomy and if
everything goes well, I'll be graduating with my PhD at
the end of this year, so I will be Dr
Cabrera Salazar. And so tell us why beyond just hanging
out with us, you're here at SALPA. This is actually
the reason, Oh I flew all this way. Um, Well,

(03:21):
I have a panel. Um. That's it's not just my
panel actually, but Jen Goldbeck Um, who's a TED fellow
and my friend a summer ash We're doing a panel
tomorrow at I think five o'clock if I'm not mistaken.
On UM it's called hashtag distracting lye sexy, and it
has to do with how to fight science sexism on
social media. Um, and we're gonna talk about all the

(03:43):
different Twitter campaigns that have started to fight all of
the science sexism that y'all have been hearing about recently.
So yeah, so we're gonna kind of give a little
intro to some of that stuff that you're gonna be
talking about even more in depth tomorrow. Um. But first
we want to tell our meat cute story with the
hole because it involves a wonderful email to mom stuff

(04:03):
at how stuff works dot com, where you can also
email as cute things. Yes. Um, okay, So we had
done a two part episode on women in astronomy. We
got really into it. It was originally gonna be one episode,
but then we had to make a chick contained because
it's that much sexism. Um. So we got this email
from a fabulous lady named Nicole and she said, you

(04:25):
mentioned in your podcast that you were wondering if there
would be any lady Neil de grass Tyson's anytime soon.
It just so happens that I'm getting my PhD in astronomy,
graduating next year and I'll be going into astronomy education
and public outreach. Sorry if this is embarrassing the same
sort of thing thel Degrass Tyson does, just on a
smaller scale. I'm not sure if I'll ever achieve this
kind of fame, but I'm super passionate about making astronomy

(04:47):
accessible to everyone, and I want to focus my career
on encouraging women and minorities to pursue STEM careers. So
how could we not reach out to Nicole also because
she was in Atlanta and be like, hey, let's be
friends and let's talk in Austin. UM. And Nicole has
a fantastic Ted Talk that you should absolutely watch after this,

(05:08):
and I, because I'm creepy, was watching it this morning
while I was doing my hair. Yeah, I was, Yeah,
I'm a fan, not too stalky. Um. And one thing
that jumped out to me Nicole was how you were
talking about being a feminist since you were eleven, which
I was like, dang impressive. Um, But it wasn't until

(05:29):
you really started pursuing STEM education higher education that it
awakened more of your intersectional awareness and the activism that
you're focused on now. So could you just kind of
take us through your journey with that? Um? So I
did talk about this a little bit in my in
my talk and it's that. Um, there's a lot of muchiesmore.

(05:50):
I grew up in Miami, so a lot of Hispanic people. Um.
I grew up in a place. Yeah, somebody from Miami's here. Um.
I was not the minority, right UM. My high school,
I think I might have known maybe two white people
growing up and that was just normal for me. Um.
And it was actually um, not until I came to Atlanta.
I went to a community college, first, Miami Dad College,
which was fantastic, and then I transferred to Georgia Tech,

(06:13):
which was my high school physics teachers alma mater, and
I wanted to go there because he went there. Um.
And then when I moved to Atlanta, I very quickly
realized that I was a minority there. Um and and
that was really shocking for me. Was a huge culture shock.
So I had I had been a feminist since I
was young, because you know, I had recognized all of

(06:34):
the ship that women have to go through, um in
my culture. But um, but as far as you know,
my race being any part of that, I just wasn't
aware until I had to, you know, especially at Georgia Tech,
where they're just very few women and very few minorities,
UM compared to the demographic of Atlanta compared to the
demographic of the United States. So that was just a

(06:54):
huge shock for me. Yeah, we'll tell us about how
what led you to astronomy in the first place. Well, UM,
so in high school I had this really encouraging physics teacher,
UM who was amazing, and he saw my potential and UM,
and he nurtured that, and so I decided I wanted
to be in physics. So I went to Georgia Tech

(07:15):
and I studied physics. And while I was there, UM,
my first semester there, I had an astronomy class and
it was awesome, and I thought, this is amazing. So
I started doing research with my astronomy professor and he said,
you know, you should apply for summer internships the National
Science Foundation. UM. They fund these UM internships over the
summer and you go and they pay you. And so
I applied to ten different ones that year and I

(07:36):
got into just one and it was in Hawaii. So
of course I wasn't going to turn that down. And
I got to live in Hawaii for three months. I
got to go up to the telescopes and use the telescopes.
I got to do full time astronomy research, and I
was like, yeah, I could. I could do this for life.
So that's how I decided to go into astronomy. And
then of course I applied to grad school and here, well, so,
but what is the intersection though, I mean we are

(07:58):
talking about intersectionality, but um, what is the intersection of
you studying astronomy and getting into the sciences and realizing,
oh wait, I actually want to go over to the
h advocacy activist arena? Right? So I had. As soon
as I came to Atlanta and I started my bachelor's
in physics, I realized that not only was I the

(08:20):
only woman in all of my physics classes, but I
was also the only minority. UM, so it was all
white dudes and me, and that can be really intimidating.
And I was just super aware of that, and so
I wanted to connect with other women. And I always
had been passionate about science education and just like telling
people about astronomy because it's so cool. And I just
focused a lot of that energy trying to reach people

(08:44):
like me. So because I had a hard time, UM
going through that. UM. The year that I graduated, I
was the only woman graduating with a physics degree UM,
and I'm pretty sure the only minority as well, just
from Georgia Tech. And so that had a huge effect
on me. And then grad school. I came in wanting
to be a researcher. UM. I was there for I
think four years and after that, UM, there was just

(09:06):
a lot of hardship that you have to go through
a lot of intimidating places and just um, you have
a different experience, I feel like than than when you're
a white dude who has tons of other white dudes
around him validating his experience. UM. And I had a
lot of just difficulties in my department UM or in

(09:26):
my experience as a grad student that I always thought
were like because I was a lady UM, but then
I realized that, um, some of the white women around
me were not experiencing the same things, right, And so
I was like, wow, like maybe race has something to
do with it too, And so that was really shocking
for me and UM and also just knowing that the
number of sacrifices I would have to make in my

(09:48):
life in order to make it as a professor, right,
Like you have to give so much up and you
have to you know, travel the world doing temporary research
positions and then publishing lots of papers, and that means
working around the talk and maybe putting off having a
family and putting off you know, having a good work
life balance. And I didn't want that. UM. And as
a woman, you have to be much much more competitive

(10:10):
than your male counterparts in order to make it as far.
And I just thought, you know, it's not worth it
for me. I'm not I might get to the end
of that and be in my late thirties early forties
and there might not be a job for me guaranteed.
So and then I'm gonna have to change careers at
that point. I'd rather do something that I'm also passionate
about and UM, that I can really dedicate my life
to enter, um dictate the terms of So in the

(10:32):
process of all this, I'm curious if you sort of
found your community people who had experienced similar things and
probably felt similarly isolated at all. Yeah. So, UM, it
wasn't until last year, not even a year ago. UM,
there was this huge, hugely different conference that was started,

(10:55):
UM called Inclusive Astronomy, and it was the very first
conference of its kind, and it had to do with
you know, we're going to talk about these issues, all
the isms in astronomy, able ism, sexism, racism, and how
it affects our young scientists and what what are we
gonna do about it too. So it was this like
three or four day conference. I took maybe seven grad
students with me. UM. It was in Nashville, and over

(11:17):
those three days, we learned about you know, systemic racism,
we learned about how sexism affects the numbers, and we
also put together recommendations for the community, the astronomy community
in terms of universities, departments, the National Science Foundation, you know, NASA,
how can what can we recommend to them to make
it better for people like me and for other people
at other other intersections. UM. And so that going to

(11:40):
that conference, that was the first time I had met
other Latina astronomers UM very first time, and I'm like,
you know, very far along in my graduate career, and
so that was a huge shock to me, and UM
it just made me realize, like, wow, I haven't had
this community this whole time. It has been very isolating,
and I need to be able to have that so

(12:01):
that I can UM succeed. And it seems like to
that point, in the context of being here at south By,
that social media and tech have facilitated some of that
community building as well. Yes, yes, because, um, so a
lot of these conversations you can't have in real life
because most of your colleagues are they don't get it

(12:23):
right if they're not experiencing those things. You know, a
lot of a lot of guys have told me like, wow,
I can't believe all the sexual harassment and astronomy is happening,
Like they just had no idea and it's happening right
under your nose, right, But it's because, um because when
you don't have to experience some identity, then you're completely
blind to it. Um. And So I have found online

(12:46):
several communities that I can connect with other like minded
people who are fighting for those same rights in astronomy
and science in general. Um and and those are the
people that I've really been able to connect with it
so that I don't feel so isolated and alone. Yeah. Yeah, Well,
and it seems too that speaking of astronomy, that's really
been the hot bed for a lot of this. There's

(13:08):
been so much activism specifically within astronomy and as a
lay person. Um, it surprised me. I mean, I had
no idea. But also that tells you a lot about
how much I know about the day to day workings
of astronomers, um, but curious to know why astronomy. So
I really think, So okay. What we have to realize,

(13:31):
and this is something that we're going to talk about
more tomorrow, is that science is not above culture, right A.
Science is actually deeply entrenched in the culture that we
all live in. And that means that there's gonna be
If there's gonna be sexism in society, there's gonna be
sexual harassment in society, it's going to happen in science
as well. The problem is that we associate science as
being this objective, noble field where nothing bad can happen

(13:55):
because scientists are, you know, so objective and so smart
and everything, and of course they're going to be above that.
But they're not. And also another problem is that, you know, um,
in academia in general, not just in science, but just
in academia, you have professors who are you know, they're
bringing in millions of dollars in grants and they have tenures,
so it's really hard to get them fired. And you're

(14:17):
they're more powerful, and you have these younger grad students
or undergrad students sometimes they have no power and they
are not as important to the universities UM as these
professors are. And so we have a community that's actually
willing to talk about these issues. So, starting I think
with that inclusive Astronomy conference and even much before, there
are members of the astronomy community who have been fighting

(14:38):
this all along. And when that story broke out, our
community rallied together on social media so that UM Jeff
Marcy would get fired because you know, in the midst
of all this, you know, it came out that the
Title nine investigation that he went through, UH, they found
him in violation. He had harassed several students, undergraduate students

(15:00):
UM and more than than we even know about. And
the University of California Berkeley said, well, the next time
you do something like this, you might get fired. And
our community was outraged. And so the people in this
community really fought through social media, a lot of the
younger people UM and and putting pressure on journalists and
putting pressure on UM, on departments and agencies, and and

(15:22):
that's why you're hearing about it. It's not that it's
not happening in other places. It's that we're speaking out,
and that's actually a good sign because it means that
we're having these open discussions. Um, and so hopefully other
fields will will also follow that example. Yeah, I wanted
to ask more about Jeff Marcy. So he was he's
what an exo planet researcher, okay, um, And when news

(15:45):
broke that he had been harassing women and this had
been going on for a decade, which he described as
just misunderstandings, you know, I just played and simple. Um.
It was really greeded as like an open secret, like
people had known about what was going on with Marcy
and the women that he was harassing for years. So
we were wondering, how is that kind of wilful blindness
even possible? Um, So it's possible because again because of

(16:10):
the culture we live in and the culture of silence
that surrounds these you know, survivors of sexual assault and
sexual harassment. So you have, first of all, there's a
power and balance. This thing is actually quite planned out.
There's something that um in the Women in Astronomy blog
was called um the Harasser's playbook. So I mean it's
kind of like grooming victims. And then it's always this power,

(16:33):
huge power and balance where the person who's doing the
harassing UM has a hold on your career somehow. And UM,
they are afraid to report because if they report, then
it gets dragged you know, through the media or you know,
in the community. Even in these small communities, you need
recommendation letters from your advisors. If this guy is your advisor,
you're not going to succeed in the field. And that's

(16:53):
why a lot of women end up leaving UM. And
so that culture of silence. You know, it's gonna affect
my career. Other people are not going to believe me.
It's all. It's a symptom of the larger cultural problem.
And UM astronomy is a huge field. There are lots
of different sub fields, but my particular subfield is Excel clanets.
And so I had been warned about this guy, you know,

(17:13):
years ago, and and someone told me through this underground information, UM,
you know, don't be alone with this guy at a
conference if you ever see him, like, you know, try
to stay away from him because he's dangerous. UM. And
so I had I never had to meet him. Fortunately,
I guess. Um, But but that was something that all

(17:34):
the women knew because they're handing out this information to
each other to protect each other. But the men, you know,
by definition, never hear about it. So it's it's this
the whole system that allows these problems to happen, and then, um,
you know, we have to come up with ways to
protect each other. Um, but it's it's not effective, it's
it's not good enough. Right, So well, yeah, I mean

(17:56):
it gets I mean the whole thing is connected to
this could true of victim blaming and you needing to
protect yourself and keep yourself away from this guy who's
still in a position of power, which is so messed up. Yeah.
Well I also want I want to jump off of
that concept because we were talking in our uber here
or lift sorry this lift I lift here. Um about

(18:20):
I wonder if it's a generational thing because all you
you have the same sexism, in the same harassment, but
all of a sudden, you have all of these women
in the past. Ye're so really starting to speak out
and say, not only is this not okay, but we're
going to hold you accountable. Versus the advice columnist who
wrote for I Think it was science science magazines. Who guess,

(18:41):
And somebody wrote in and said, you know, I'm being harassed.
I'm you know, my boobs are getting stared at at
the office, like I'm experiencing all this stuff. What do
I do? And the advice columnists said, well, and this
was a woman writing, yes, it's not a dude, and
the lady person said, you know, just deal with it.
Just started to put up with it. It's part of
the job. It's part of the industry, you know, you

(19:02):
you should just put up a shut up And so like,
what's going on there? Is this a generational thing? Or
what do you feel like is behind part of the shift?
So I think that social media plays a hugely important
role because and Twitter, especially Twitter is actually the social
media platform that best represents the demographics of the U s. Right,
So other social media platforms like Reddit, um, you have

(19:24):
a bunch of you know, men who are between the
ages of like, you know, sixteen and thirty vibe or whatever,
and white men, and they dominate the conversation, whereas on
Twitter you have uh, you know, more diversity, and so
you get more voices heard. So traditionally women did not
have a platform to speak. Minorities now have a platform
to speak, and now social media is providing that. So

(19:45):
it's not that these conversations weren't happening before, it's that
no one was listening, and social media provides a platform
for people to actually, you know, those voices get amplified.
Can you talk a little bit about some of those campaigns,
the ones that have stood out to you as extremely effective. Yes,
so absolutely this Jeff Marcy kase. I feel like most

(20:05):
people have heard about that, even people who were not
at all in touch with astronomy. So that was a
really big one. After that story broke, UM astro s
H was the hashtag that people used UM and it
was so it stands for sexual harassment, and people were
talking about it. People were coming out with their own stories, supporting,
you know, the victims and and trying to get this

(20:27):
guy fired. And our community puts so much pressure not
just on the University of California, Berkeley, but also on
the journalists who were writing headlines sympathizing with Jeff Marcy,
who were writing content that you know, his They were
quoting his wife for some reason as like a legitimate
source of information. And that was in the new York Times. Yeah,

(20:47):
and so our community did not stop. I mean, I'm
part of this spacebook group that's UM, it's for equity
and Inclusion in physics and astronomy, And all the people
in there were like, we're writing a letter, like who's
gonna sign it, who's gonna help us? Help us draft it,
you know, or we're over here on Twitter like talking
about this, like everybody like get on board. And so
we really organized UM and there were some key people
doing those that organization too, and so astrosh I mean,

(21:10):
it has had a huge reach, not just for that case,
but more recently, there was a case of a sexual
harassment Title nine investigation that happened UM about Tim Slater. Um.
This happened like ten years ago or something. But now
he's at a different university who's also found in violation.
Now he's at a different university, doing really well and

(21:31):
getting paid and everything, because UM, that information was either
not disclosed or dismissed. So he was found in violation.
Then his next employer either knew the information and didn't
do anything about it or just straight up didn't know.
So recently, Representative Jackie Spear, she's a representative from California.
She heard about this through this hashtag. I think it

(21:54):
was actually her staffers who informed her about it, and
she's now proposing legislation that's going to make these tied
all nine investigations at least in the state of California, transparent,
so that that information becomes public, right the the conclusions
of the investigations become public, and that you know, to
force universities to share that information with the future employer
of the perpetrators, and that that would be huge because

(22:17):
currently it's you know, you have a timeline investigation and
then nothing happens, I mean literally a slap on the wrist,
and sometimes not even that. I mean, that's incredible though.
I mean I feel like hashtag activism is dismissed a
lot of times. It's like, oh, that's so cute, you
all hashtag fun. But I mean these things are creating
actual political institutional changes. It's incredible. Yeah, I mean, I

(22:42):
think the people who complain about it are usually the
people who don't need it. So like, you know, if
if you're a white dude and you see yourself represented everywhere,
like of course you don't see the purpose of it.
But I actually for people who normally don't have a voice.
It's a huge deal. And I feel like that divide
is also I mean, speaking of the New York Times,
that's your liked it in our mainstream regular media that

(23:02):
you have. I mean, if you you need to look
at who's in your newsrooms and who is then covering
issues like sexism in science, and then that colors how
those stories come out. And then of course people who
aren't in science, they are reading these mainstream media outlets
and and that is informing their opinion of what's going
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And now back to the show. Speaking of mainstream media,
So there was a a Wired article headlined was the

(24:40):
year we really started caring about sexism and science. And
there are a couple of parts that really jumped out
to me. Um, because this really is a new thing
that even science journalists are talking about. You know. That's
why we wanted to talk about science communication because we've
been hearing a lot of these issues within academia. But

(25:03):
it's also an issue in the information that we're hearing
about it and how it's being reported. And may I
quote from the Wired article, Um, Look, they're just okay.
So they interviewed Deborah Bloom, who is a science journalist
and also director of the Nights Science Journalism Program at
m I T. So this woman knows what she's talking about.

(25:25):
And she said, quote, I don't think we saw these
kinds of news stories and saw this kind of reaction
in the journalism community in earlier generations. We're all catching
up to this kind of cultural awareness. And then later
on the Wired writer had to say, yeah, I mean,
and also, if we look at Wired, this is what
I have to also own up to the fact that

(25:46):
we have only sporadically covered this issue as well. And
the writer said, we've been silent on many of these
stories because we've long hoped to cover the ways that
science can make the world better, not reflect to the
world's problems. But that's wrong, of course, and ignoring social
inequality doesn't fix it. Yeah, well, I mean I also

(26:08):
think there I mean, I didn't read the article, but
there's also the issue of when you have science represented
by white men, right, then the other people who participate
in science are not as important because they're not as numerous.
And so why would you report on things that don't
affect your white male audiences or don't affect most scientists, right,

(26:31):
because they're mostly composed of white men. So I think
there's there's that branch of it too. I think that
affects it. Well, I'm going to something that you talked
about earlier in terms of people assuming, oh, well, science
is so objective, you know, they're so smart, like these
these kinds of issues are totally separate. And I think
it's that idea of almost like church and state of like, oh,
these like humany feelings, things like sexism are like over

(26:54):
here and like separate from science because those are facts
and that's logic and they don't belong together. And that
sentiment is also i mean almost reflected in this Wired article.
Um So I'm kind of wondering what your responses when
people if when people say, like sex talking about sexism
has no place in science communication. We should be talking

(27:16):
about science, right. I love the story of how in
the US there was you know, federally funded They were
federally funded experiments and studies set out to prove that
certain races were inferior to other races, namely the Caucasian race. Right,

(27:37):
So there were scientists who were taking skulls of different
races of human beings, and they were filling the skulls
with beings or pas or something so that they could
measure the volume and say, okay, see this one has
a bigger volume of the skull, so therefore their brain
is bigger so therefore they're smarter, therefore their better of

(27:59):
a race. Right. Um, what they didn't say is that
there and they literally believed that this was an objective
experience experiment. And then you realize, well, they used smaller
bodied skulls for the women and for the other races,
and they preferentially selected skulls from larger bodied people to

(28:19):
represent the Caucasian race. And then you want to tell
me that science is objective and you know scientists don't
bring their own biases into it. I mean, it's absolutely true,
and that's that wasn't that long ago. And this is
again federally funded experiments to do this, so it was
like legitimate science. And and I just I always point
that out, like you can't, you can't just use science

(28:40):
as you know, you're the arbiter of truth when it's
human beings who are conducting the science, human beings who
grow up with all these biases that wekend in societies.
It goes back to gatekeeping. Not only who are the
journalists covering the press releases and and the new discoveries,
but also who is doing the experiments. And so I

(29:01):
think it's easy for a lot of people white guys
and science. Uh to dismiss the white male scientists. But
it's easy for a lot of people to poo pooh
the idea that we need more women or people of
color or trans scientists. Um, because you know why, why,

(29:22):
it's just science. It's objective. But you know, what do
people approach you with these thoughts and ideas and what
do you tell them? How can diversity possibly make science
any better? Facts? Or that's a microscope? Right? So I
think an interesting idea is that diversity initiatives have been
around since like the seventies, right. I mean they looked

(29:42):
around and they're like, there are only white dudes in
science or and you know other areas as well. And
the fact is, you know, when you look at it today,
those um, those initiatives have largely benefited white women because
you know, you have a bunch of white dudes and
you tell them you have to diversify, and they're like, okay,
we'll take women, but that means just white women, right. Um.
So it's just sort of like we just have to

(30:03):
do the bare minimum here. We can't include women of color,
we can't include you know, trends people or gay people,
because it's just like, if we're gonna include anyone, let's
at least keep the raised homogeneous or whatever. So, UM,
I just think, you know, people who don't understand that, um,

(30:23):
it's it's really hard to get them to see otherwise.
But UM, I like to bring that example up, as
you know, an example of it's it's just not that's
just not the way it works. Yeah, I mean there
was even uh I don't know when it was reported
but not long ago in New York Times on how
there is finally being attention paid to all of the
mice and lab rats, which are usually like the human analogs.

(30:47):
You know, so many studies are conducted on them, but
they're almost exclusively male rats because of the assumption but
females not all rats, not all rats or mice, you know,
under the assumption and that those female rats and their
own lady brains, this hysterical rat euter, yes, but legitimately
that their hormones would throw off studies. And we've seen

(31:09):
the same kind of thing in human studies, especially for
biomedical research. I would just like to insert that the
female viagra you guys read about how it was tested
on men, I would like to just insert that as
an example, continue please, Now I'm just I'm off female,
but wrat that's on viagra. Um. But there's only in

(31:33):
the past couple of years been attention to that. And
I mean things like oh pain medicine huh that impacts
female bodies different than male bodies. Maybe we need to
to work on that. And that's incredible. I mean we're
talking about science, right, but we're still like catching up
in really really basic ways. But thanks to this kind
of activism. So who are some of the people that

(31:56):
we should be following on social media? Besides you? I
mean we already follow you. People we should be following
on social media, but also maybe some great hashtags that
are doing a really good job, particularly good job of
raising awareness, and maybe just people that we should be
aware of who are in this community having these conversations.
That's like a multi layer question, Starry, No, Well, I
I do want to talk about that because these are

(32:17):
people who have heavily influenced me and taught me just everything,
um in the last year. So um. So the first
person I want to mention is Dr Shonda Prescott Weinstein.
She's the sixty third black woman to have a PhD
in astrophysics in the history of the United States, okay,
and which is just mind blowing that that there's that

(32:38):
few black women being awarded PhDs um in astronomy. And
she is just amazing. I mean, she's she's an activist.
She talks about race and sexism in science. Um, she
talks about um, you know, hetero sexism, just all kinds
of things that she's amazing and I just I just
learned so much from her. And she has a blog actually, UM.

(32:58):
And one of the things that she was she was
one of the first people to say this when the
Jeff Marcity story broke out. She pointed out that maybe
the only reason that we care about these sexual harassment
cases is that they affect white women, you know. And
she talked about how we have a title nine office
on every university campus in this country. Where's my title
for office? You know, where um is the office that's

(33:21):
gonna handle racism on these campuses. And some people might
be like, well, you know, sexism leads to terrible things.
It might lead to rape or murder. Um. But actually
racism does as well, and we're not addressing those things,
and we're seeing all the violence that comes out of
racism now with a lot of social media and how
people have been reporting police brutality and all those things.

(33:43):
So I think it's just as important. And and she's
one of the people who's at the forefront of like, hey,
we need to make this issue intersectional. UM and so
she has a blog on medium and she talks about
just all these things that you're gonna learn so much.
She should definitely follow her UM. Also, Sarah Tuttle is
an astronomer here in Austin at ut UM and so

(34:03):
she she's she also talks about sexism from an intersectional
approach in science. Uh. Jesse Shanahan is a PhD. UH.
She's a grad student at Wesleyan and she talks about
all kinds of is ms in science. But she's also
a huge disability activist, So I learned a lot from
her UM. As an able bodied person, I feel like

(34:26):
we just don't see the world the same way and
we're blind to a lot of things, and that's something
that's super important. I also want to give a shout
out to Dr Jedidah Eisler. She's another black woman with
a PhD and astrophysics from Yale. First black woman from
Yale to graduate with a PhD in astrophysics, ever, which
is also an atrocity and an accomplishment at the same time.
And she has a a monthly vlog it's like a

(34:49):
Google hangout, and she brings in other women of color
from science, technology, engineering, mathematics, and she interviews them and
they talked about great things. So it's been a great
thing for me and for other women of color and science,
but I think also just for other people, UM, for visibility.
If you want to learn about other women who are
currently scientists and women of color, you should definitely watch

(35:10):
this Google hangout that she has. It's called banguards STEM
and she's also on Twitter as well. So you had
mentioned earlier, UM, when we were kind of talking about
the generational shift UM and the silencing effect and the
risk of kind of going forward with claims of sexual
harassment or gender discrimination, racism, etcetera. And now we are seeing,

(35:32):
you know, so much more conversation, especially through social media
and Twitter, about that, and I was wondering if there
is still that risk of backlash or if Twitter and
technology and kind of the visibility and community building that
they provide, if that's sort of provided an insulating effect
to that. So unfortunately, uh, this is a field that

(35:55):
is very slow to change. So I do think that, um,
that there is probably retaliation, like there's still fear of retaliation,
of course, But the more people who come out and
counter this culture of silence, the easier it is for
other women behind them and other other people behind them
who experience all of these isms, UM to come out

(36:16):
and have a voice for themselves. Um. Killer Miich was
talking about earlier how he wants to be a voice
for people who don't have a voice, and I feel
I feel the same way. I mean, the people, um,
the women who came out in the Jeff Marcy investigation
chose to have their names attached to that media piece.
They chose to have their names attached to that title
nine of investigation publicly, and they have gotten death threats,

(36:39):
rape threats, um, and all kinds of you know, horrible
nous but they've also had you know, a lot of
support from our community, and so um, you know, their
brave actions are what you know, empower other women to
do this, And I think really the only way is
to talk about it. But I don't fault women who
don't come board because you know your careers on the line.

(36:59):
It's easy for me to talk about this knowing that
I'm leaving research and I don't, you know, none of
these people have anything over me. And you know, I'm
gonna get my PhD and then I'm gonna go do
something else. But when you're staying in that community and
you need to do your research and you need to
get recommendation letters, and you need to have people supporting you,
I can completely understand why they wouldn't come forward with
those kinds of things. So hopefully this will I mean,

(37:21):
I know that we're progressing in the right direction. Um,
hopefully you know, faster rather than slower. Yeah, I mean,
and oh the irony that science is so slow to change,
not kind of exactly, I mean, is there What do
you think it will take though? I mean, obviously it
will take more than hashtag activism and things like that,

(37:43):
But what do you think it will take to to
make it not such a hostile environment for not just women,
but people of color, disabled people, etcetera. So right now,
a lot of the young people are taking up these causes.
I mean, even being outspoken on social media is a
risky move if you're a young person. You know, if

(38:04):
you're a post doc or like a grad student and
people find out about it, you might not have a
good career. So I think, honestly, the onus is on
the professors, people with power, people who have tenure UM
and and really I think the white men in this
profession if they want to see astronomy going forward UM

(38:25):
and being successful and having more discoveries and everything, than
really the onus is on them to start these changes
to you know, educate yourself about the issues and about
who's getting left behind, and you know, trying to make
a change. And I actually see that happening now because
more people are talking about and it's more visible. You know,
departments are coming under fire. University of California, Berkeley is

(38:47):
definitely under fire. UM. People are starting to pay attention
to save their own asses UM. And I think it's
it's really going to take those people in the higher
places because they're the ones with the power, right, and
the younger people are going to continue to change things
and and and and push through. But as long as
those people remain in power and want to do nothing

(39:09):
about it, then that's change is going to be so slow.
It'll happen still eventually, but it'll just be too slow.
So what can we non scientists do, you know, like,
because it affects us at some point, it trickles down
to all of us absolutely. I mean, you know, there's
this image that that society has about what a scientist

(39:31):
looks like, and that image gets passed around through media, um,
and it gets passed down to younger children who then
don't believe that they can be a scientist because they
don't they're not they don't play the part, right, UM.
So I think talking about it and like sharing this
information supporting the people who are on the bad side

(39:51):
of this, you know, the victims of the sexual harassment. UM.
If you talk about it on your own social media
pages with these hashtags, it gets the information out there.
And know these scientists who are committing these crimes really
because if it's sexual assault, it's a crime. And there
you know, that's another story. But these people are paid
by your tax dollars. The money that comes at that

(40:13):
pays these professors comes largely from the big agencies like
the National Science Foundation NASA UM, the National Institution of
Health UM, the Department of Energy. This is all taxpayer
money and so we should all care about this and
try to spread this information so that future generations don't
have to live with this. Absolutely who is there? Is

(40:36):
there anything else that you want our audience to know
about you or your efforts and where we go ye
and also tell them me on how to find you. Okay? Well, um,
my Twitter handle is at jazz jazz toronomy so j
A z z t R O n O M y.
I can actually spell out this industry. UM, so you
can follow me and I post a lout on Twitter

(40:58):
and everything. UM. But uh, I I try to do
as much as I can. So, I mean, I I'm
one person, but as much as I can, I I
like to try to support people like me because honestly,
the motivation that I have is that I went through
this really hard thing that not a lot of people,
I mean ninety percent of people in this country will

(41:19):
never get a graduated you will never get a pH
and that was that was really hard for me. So
I knew what it was like and I didn't want
anybody else to go through that. So I turned around
and I started um a graduate mentoring program and my
just in my department UM where like older grad students
will mentor younger grad or incoming grad students. And right
now we're seeing, ironically a lot of problems come up

(41:41):
right and um, you know people are going like where,
you know, why are we having all these problems now?
And I'm going, you know, these problems existed before, but
they flew under the radar, and you know, people were
suffering silently. But now that we have something in this
department where students can act stually talk to someone who
will understand where they're coming from, that's why these problems

(42:04):
are surfacing. And it's a good sign because it means
that people are talking about it and now we can
address those issues. So, UM, I don't know, I want
to take I want to take that message. I wanna UM.
I want to reach out to communities of color, people
who are not represented in science and encourage them to
go into stem um, which is a double edged sword
because I'm like funneling them into a system where they might,

(42:24):
you know, encounter a hostile environment. But I think empowering
empowering these people too and letting them know like, hey,
science is just like the rest of the world. There's
gonna be sexism, there's gonna be racism, there's gonna be
able is um, you know, um, and letting them know like,
here's how you empower yourself, here's how you fight that.
Um you know, don't let anybody tell you that you
can't do it, because you can. And and having like

(42:45):
for me getting a PhD, like being an immigrant and
a woman of color and and getting that far, I
can turn around and say, you know, I did it
and you can do it as well. And one last thing,
since this is stuff MOB never told you, even though
the name might suggest otherwise, would you like to give
mom shout out? And one thing that you shouted out

(43:06):
and your ted talk was how your mom kind of
accidentally raised you as a scientist. I was just wondering
if you could talk a little bit about that because
I love that story so much. Yes, oh my gosh. Okay,
So a lot of you may not know this, but
like Latino culture is just the mother is basically she's
like the boss of the house. And um, Latin women

(43:27):
are just so empowered. Um. And my mom raised me
that way. She was, you know, really tough and everything,
but she raised me to believe that I could really
do anything. And uh, and you know, when I guess
I tell I'll tell the story again. But when I
was young, I would, um, even really like three or
four years old, my mom would tell me like, go
clean your room or you know, go tidy this up

(43:48):
or something, and I wouldn't do literally anything until she
would sit down and explain to me why I had
to do it and um. And sometimes she would cry,
like she's told me, Like I would cry because as
I'm sitting here like for an hour, you know, arguing
with a three year old about why she should clean
her room. But the thing is, you know, she sat
down and she did that. She knew that, like I mean,

(44:10):
she knew from experience that grounding me wasn't going to
do anything. I was still not going to follow her
orders or whatever. Um, So she did what she knew
worked for me. A lot of parents wouldn't have done that,
you know. I you know, I know a lot of
people who would not have done that. And I just
think that her reinforcing that, like, my questions were important
and they deserve to be validated. And you know, I

(44:31):
didn't have to take no for an answer. I didn't
have to just be satisfied with any answer that people
wanted to tell me, you know, that really that's what
science is. Science is, you know, having a question and
just pursuing it and failing and trying again until you
get the right answer. And so I think that really
is one of the biggest reasons that I'm a scientist today. Yes,

(44:53):
I love it. Thank you and thanks Nicole's mom. Thanks mom. Well, Nicole,
thank you so much for joining us today. We're really
excited that you're doing what you're doing. We're so excited
to see what you do in the future, and we're
really glad you're in Atlanta because we're gonna hang out.
She's so funny. Let's give it up for Nicole. So

(45:23):
there you have it, folks. Thanks so much to everyone
who came to the show. Huge thanks to Nicole Cabrera,
who I am convinced is going to change the world. Yeah,
Nicole is amazing, and we're as we said in the show,
we're super excited to see where she takes her science
education career, and we're hoping that we'll be able to
take our live show to other places at some point.

(45:48):
I know that we've talked about it and longingly posted
on social about where we should go if we were
to have a live show so it is top of
mind for us, because again, we love meeting you all,
whether it's for lady drinks like we've been doing in
some cities, or live show. So if you are a
group and can bring us to your city, or if

(46:10):
you run a venue and can bring us to your city,
let us know, see and see you're down to travel,
So drop us a line of mom stuff at how
stuff works dot com. And of course we also want
to hear your thoughts on everything we talked about in
that live show on sexism and science communications. So mom
Stuff at how stuff works dot com again is our

(46:30):
email address. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff
podcast or messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple
of messages this year with you. Right now. Well, I
have a letter here from Cecilia in response to our
Adult Coloring Books episode, which we have received so many

(46:52):
emails about you guys really like your coloring, which I
kind of love. Um. Okay, so Cecilia says, as someone
who does not partake in a coloring now, I did
not anticipate that I would relate so much to the episode,
but I do. So here goes My mom began teaching
art in the early seventies and subsequently built her career
on researching and teaching about the history and practices of

(47:13):
art education. So, of course, my brother and I grew
up on Susan Striker's anti coloring books. I remember feeling
frustrated by the blank spaces, and I often simply colored
in the illustrated vignettes and moved on to the next page.
I cherished the single normal coloring book. I owned a
Barbie Fashion's book, but I spent a lot of time
drawing my own fashion models as well, so I kind

(47:35):
of loathed them. In retrospect, I think the anti coloring
books were a positive influence on my creative development. I
believe that drawing versus coloring improves visual literacy and helps
kids build confidence. Through my own experience teaching art, I
find that most kids show more joy and higher self
esteem after creating self directed works of art as opposed
to completing a predetermined project the traced hand turkey for example.

(47:59):
Why have we got to hate on the traced hand turkey?
I still draw those, She goes on to say, as
for adults, I agree that coloring in between the lines
it is probably more of a sedative than a stimulant
in college, where I earned my b f A, my
friends and I would destress at night by smoking weed
and coloring in our dorm. Well, I imagine that I
would still enjoy this activity today. I feel obligated to
put any free creative energy into making art, a practice

(48:21):
that always suffers because of my job and other responsibilities.
Thanks again for the episode and for the welcome distraction
your show brings to my hours working as an art
fram er. Well, thank you, Cecilia. Well, I've got a
let her here from Maryland, who is all about some
adult coloring books, which Caroline whenever I hear the phrase
adult coloring books, that does sound like something naughty. Oh

(48:42):
for sure, I without a doubt. Um, But Marylyn writes,
I just finished listening to your episode on adult coloring books,
and I had to roll my eyes a little at
the fuss over coloring books stunting creativity by being a
quote mindless activity. As someone who does have other creative
hobbies like crochet and fiction writing, I can definitely say

(49:03):
that my coloring books, one of which I was working
on while listening to the episode, aren't making a creatively
stagnated robot out of me. Coloring may not be as
demanding as other pursuits, but I would argue that that's
what's so great about it. It allows people to exercise
a simple, low stress creativity without the real or perceived
pressure to make something perfect. Talking to people with creative

(49:25):
pursuits like writing or art, one of the most common
threads you'll find is the anxiety and dissatisfaction over imperfect
finished products, not that I'm speaking from experience or anything.
With coloring, you get to exercise the same creative impulse,
but without fear of the world crashing down around you
if you color outside the lines, or that shade of
orange doesn't work as well as you thought it might.

(49:46):
Coloring is certainly more engaging than a lot of the
games I play on my tablet to kill time or procrastinate,
and yet at the same time, it doesn't require me
to have my brain at one at all times, and
offers a RESTful and harmless activity to keep my hand
it's busy while I process the rest of my day.
As always, great podcasts and I look forward to future episodes,
some of which I will definitely listen to well. Coloring,

(50:10):
So thanks so much, Maryland, and thanks to everyone all
of you who have written about coloring, especially so many
coloring letters and photos. We love to see your coloring photos,
um and for all of your other emails mom stuff
at how stuff works dot com is our email address.
And to keep up with all of our social media links,

(50:30):
blog posts, videos and podcasts with our sources so you
can learn more about sexism and science communication, you should
head on over to stuff mom Never Told You dot
com for more on this and thousands of other topics.
Is it how stuff works dot com