September 23, 2020 • 41 mins
SMNTY Book Club is back, this time with Emily Nagoski's book Come as You Are: The Surprising New Science that Will Transform Your Sex Life.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to Steph.
I'm never told your protection of I Heart Radio for
today's question, what I want to know? Oh yeah, oh yeah.
(00:25):
What is something a sex smith or belief that you
held that you later learned you were way way off? Okay,
I'm trying to think if you want, I can go first,
because I got a good one. Yeah, you go first.
So I believed, and this isn't really sex, but it's
(00:46):
a misunderstanding of your female body. I believed that you
had your baby came out the belly button, and that
administration was a myth, and if in fact it was real,
I thought it happened in your ears. And the only
reason I learned this wasn't true was because I kind
(01:07):
of was like joking about, well, you know it comes
out your ears and your and my mom's like, um,
well yeah, then yes, of course we all give birth
out our horb our ears. And I was like, oh no, wait,
why did you think it was your ears? I because
(01:27):
I thought, I literally have friends who are mad about this.
But I thought, because my brother never went to administraution,
that it was a myth. But he did have like
his ears would bleed and my ears would bleed, um,
and so I thought, maybe that's what people were talking about. Wow.
(01:47):
Yeah yeah. And then when I actually did have my
first period, I thought, you only got it once. And
when happened again, that's when I was devastated. When I learned, oh,
this is okay, this is forever until you still draw
essentially okay, Wow, that's I have never that's the first
(02:08):
for me as a miss or a misunderstanding of that
as the first I've ever heard that as an explanation.
Not the belly button part, because you know, I think
we all kind of believe that because I did too
follows younger obviously they came out of the belly button um,
but the ear wow. Yeah. I honestly can't remember, because
I was a kid that would learn things and then
(02:30):
tell people like I was the bad kid. Uh, and
that was my rebellion because I was very I was
sexualized really young. So I can't remember not knowing at
least the basics kind of of sex. Except for the
fact that I don't know, I can't remember. Ah man,
(02:52):
I can think of so many I had, um, but
one we're going to talk about in this is I thought, uh,
sex was just supposed to hurt for women. I think
that's what I believed as well, that that sex would
always hurt for women and it didn't matter um as
well as, of course, the beliefs that women can't say no,
(03:13):
as well as that they are obligated have sex. Yeah,
so I know the negative things. So at the gal
at the gate, nasty gross a lot not nasty grows,
but really sad nasty misconceptions of sex, but not necessarily
myths of sex. So I did believe that those things
made sense in my reality. But yeah, the ear and
(03:36):
the period, that's a new one for me. I told
all my friends that they thought it too. They did too,
that misinformation. I gave bad information. And let me tell
you how many angry phone calls I got when my
friends got their first period. Oh my god. I had
(03:56):
to apologize many, many, many times you lied to me.
I didn't know. I guess some of those things I
didn't think about, Like with periods, I didn't even think
about it. And then like coming because I didn't know
about periods at all. And then as you learn about
sucks and I'm like, oh, this is gonna suck. Yeah,
(04:16):
I in my class group. I matured faster, so people
would always ask me questions about those kinds of things,
like my friends would, so they I think I learned
about it from them, But then I had no clearly
no information, no useful information to share. But I too thought,
(04:38):
you know, I matured early, early, so I thought I
would know, And I hadn't had my period yet, so
there must not be real. My brother never had one,
so it's all a big lie. One of the big
lies about female bodies that I learned as a kid
because it was like such a big deal. And of
course this is again the whole pitting women as objects
and procreation machines. Was that minute you have your period,
(05:00):
as a minute you become a woman, and it should
be celebrated or it should be shamed, one of those
two things, nothing in between. And so when I didn't
get that, well, I kind of got shamed in the
sense of like you don't need to make a big
deal of it type of thing, but not like, oh,
this is awful, you did something wrong. But yeah, that
was a misconception I had that it was that big
of a deal. And I specifically remember a Cosby episode
(05:25):
in which one of the girls get their period and
they start talking about having hips and being sexy now,
and the mom getting so upset because she wanted to
celebrate with her and becoming a woman and make this
whole day of being feminine and a woman. And I'm
like what and thinking that's the way it should be.
And then the whole misconception of this makes you a
woman is so untrue, which is dated way back in
(05:47):
the idea that the minute you have your period is
the minute you start trying for children, because that's what
you're good for. As we know this, women were sold
off at that point of being a woman because they
bled quote unquote but yeah, huh years huh yes, So
clearly I could have used better information as a child,
and I could have used the book we're talking about today.
(06:10):
Brief trigger warning before we get into this. There's just
mentions of a sexual assault and trauma. Nothing too big,
but just put that out there. Um. Today we are
talking about Emily Nagaski's Come as You Are, the surprising
new science that will transform your sex life, which a
couple of you have written in about and suggested so
(06:30):
we always take in the book club recommendations are pretty
much any recommendation, so keep those coming, thank you. Yeah.
Nagaski is a sex educator who is passionate and if
you read her book as well as listen to any
of the audio that she does, she's definitely passionate about
sharing her knowledge and using science and evidence to improve
our understanding of women's sexual well being, Thank you very much.
(06:53):
And in her exchanges with women and students, one of
the number one things that she hears from women who
have taken her classes some version of quote I learned
I am normal, which is super nice to hear because
you want to know that you're not strange and off balance,
and that all of us vary and that's normal too,
and all the same parts organizing different ways is the
(07:13):
mantra throughout this book. Yes uh. And the book uses
science and the diverse stories of real women to unpack
so much of the cultural shame and discuss women have
been taught around our bodies and around sex and how
we can unlearn those toxic messages and practice self compassion.
Like with worksheets, there's activities which both Samantha and I
(07:37):
are Berrian. Did you do those? I was gonna ask
that earlier, Yeah, I did too. And I was sitting
there and doing those with the I didn't write everything
out because it was, oh my, okay, this is too much.
I'm not ready for all of this. But it's a
great workbook because she does have a workbook with it too,
But like, it's a great exercise for couples who are
trying to go through their own miscommunky shows and understanding
(08:00):
of each other. So it is nice. But yeah, it
was very enlightening. Oh it was yeah, absolutely Uh And
according to Reddit users in our slash sex, this book
transformed a lot of their sex lives. Um, there's a
whole conversation on there about it. Uh, and it's very encouraging.
I'm very happy for a lot of them, right. Um.
(08:22):
And I want to say, as someone I've been pretty open,
I don't particularly want sex. I've never had sex. I enjoyed.
I still found this very very interesting and enlightening. I
learned a lot a lot. Uh. In fact, I'm kind
of like almost everything she touches on this in this book,
I was like, oh, that could be a whole episode.
That could be a whole episode. Yeah, So we really
(08:43):
had to condense it for this book club, but I'm
sure we'll return to some of the topics she touches
on future episodes. UM. And it definitely helped me make
sense of things I've experienced with sexual assault, UM and
also what turns me on, which I get so many
questions about this because my friends just sort of don't understand,
and that's totally fine, but it was this helped me
(09:05):
understand myself even more. Yeah, yeah, because I have experienced
a lot of confusion around around that and around what
I thought was a very abnormal thing to be turned
on by essentially not really. Yeah, she does a great
job and she I love her one line when she
talks about her friend, when she says, I just don't
(09:28):
want sex and that's okay. Of course I think that
unfolded to her and her partner, but it was like, yeah,
that's exactly what should be said. If you don't want
sex was not abnormal. You don't have to have sex,
and that's okay too. I did. Look, I know we're
gonna talk more about it, but that was that made
me think of you, because I know we've talked to
many of times about feeling you feeling like it's wrong
(09:51):
that you didn't want to have sex, and felt guilty
about that, So I did love that line, but uh,
it was tw when she wrote this, and I think
we've kind of come little ways, not a long ways.
But she does have a caveat, which is quote for
most of the time. When I say women in this book,
I mean people who are born in female bodies, were
raised as girls, and now have the social role in
(10:12):
psychological identity of women. And there are plenty of women
who don't fit one or more of those categories. But
there's two little research on trans and gender queer sexual
functioning for me to say with certainty whether it what's
true about since gender women's sexual well being is also
true for trans folks. Yes, and there's actually some been
some conversation around that recently, right, And she tells a
(10:34):
little bit into it about gender queer sexuality. But yeah,
we have seen an opening of new studies as of
recent But I hate that caveat. Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, right,
but it's true sometimes what you don't have you don't know. Um. Also, Okay,
there are plenty of metaphors and puns throughout, so be
(10:56):
prepared and excited. Just the usage of the term the
guard and it's not what you think she was. But
when I initially harder say the Garden, I was like,
oh no, oh yeah, what's there's some movie reference you
throw in there? And I was like whoa. Yeah. I
(11:17):
was like, okay, okay, we're going completely from a different basis. Okay,
I liked it. I liked it. So the book is
divided into four parts. One the not so basic basics
to sex and Context, Three, Sex and Action, and for
Ecstasy for Everybody. Each of these parts are then further
(11:38):
broken down into topics and yes, it is complete with
worksheets and activities. And I will say, um, it's not
a difficult read at all, but it's very dense, like
you're learning a lot in a short Like every sentence
you're like, wait, let me sit with this person, right,
And that definitely comes in with like, while we tell
you there's puns and force, there's also a lot of
(11:59):
science behind it and a lot of evidence based. So
therefore you're gonna get too technical terms and you have
to kind of re assess the words over and over
again because you don't technically apply these things in sexuality
most of the t So, yeah, you definitely have a
moment like let me go back. What did she just say,
let me look at this. Okay, cool, cool, cool, Yeah,
And she does a great job of explaining it. It's
(12:21):
just dance, not not difficult, but dan in a good way.
Surprisingly human sexuality, there's a lot to be said and
a lot of science there. Um. One of the first
things that book tackles is the man is default miss,
something we've talked about so much on this show, and
how damaging that is and has been in making women
believe something is wrong with them if their experience doesn't
(12:44):
match men's, and particularly in male partners. Nagaski calls this
men's sexuality light like this belief that we've treated women's
sexuality as exactly the same as men's sexuality but lesser. Right,
whether it's lesser as in doesn't mean as much, and
or there's something wrong with those women because they can't match, Yes,
and with the science for a long time hasn't been
(13:07):
there because we've just assumed, you know, science has just
assumed women are the same. So as a part of this,
women surprise, have been told a lot of lies, she writes,
just relaxed. They've been told have a glass of wine,
or women just don't want sex that much, get over it?
Or sometimes sex hers. Can't you just ignore it? I've
(13:30):
heard every single lot of this, every single one. Uh.
And this idea that women should feel shame around their
sexuality is an old idea. According to her quote, medieval
anatomist called women's external genitals the pudendum, a word derived
from the Latin hoodera, meaning to make ashamed. And I'm
(13:51):
sure I butchered that pronunciation. I did not take Latin.
I didn't take Latin either. You're better with languages than
I am. Uh. And since has been this long history
of misinformation of just the bare minimum of science and
understanding around the female body. The book starts with the
not so basic basics, so examination into female body parts,
(14:12):
how they work, and how all of that interacts with
the brain. And one of the key parts of this
section is the clitterest dot dot dot, So, she writes,
the clitterest is, Oh, here we go. The hokey pokey
is what it's all about. Two turntables and a microphone
is where it's at, a visa card, It's everywhere you
want to be. Is your grand central station of erotic sensation,
(14:33):
averaging just one eighth the size of a penis, yet
loaded with nearly double the nerve endings. It can range
in size from a barely visible p to a fair
sized ghirkin and anywhere in between, and it's all normal,
all beautiful. Unlike the penis, the clitter sists only job
is sensation. The penis says four jobs, sensation, penetration, ejaculation
(14:54):
in your nation, two different ways of functioning, one shared
biological origin. Yeah, and if that wasn't enough, she really
hammers home the power of knowing where your clearest is,
not just the clears in general, but yours. And in fact,
of the first things she suggests is is getting a
mirror and looking at your genitals and finding it. As
(15:14):
a sex educator, she also discusses the difficulty of finding
images of Volva's that aren't thin, white shaped, and how
that impacts what we all think Volva's should look like,
because again, there is so much variation. But if you're
only getting shown this one type, this one type of image,
then of course you're going to form in your head,
(15:35):
going to compare how yours is different. Another thing this
section spends time on is the hymen, and there are
so so many myths and powerful stories about the hymen,
most of them to control women. The idea the hyman
ism marker of precious, precious virginity, which in itself is
(15:55):
biologically meaningless. There's even hyman reconstructive sir injury. Women have
been killed over not having one, are told they couldn't
have been raped because their hyman isn't damaged. So some
hyman myths. She goes into that it breaks and stays broken.
Everyone has a hyman, which isn't true. The size changes
(16:16):
based on penetration, it doesn't, it bleeds, it usually doesn't.
The bleeding is usually a vaginal tearing due to lack
of lubrication. But again, I've heard all of those things too,
that precious precious jewel. Yeah, we have so much more
to go over, but first we have a quick break
for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(16:51):
you sponsor. Right. So, Another key aspect of the book
are sexual response models, particularly the dual control model. While
earlier models didn't accoun for desire, this one does. Finally,
As the name suggests, it comprises two main parts, sex
accelerators and brakes. To get more specific, you have the
sexual excitation system, says and the sexual inhibition system SIS
(17:14):
that vary from person to person. The SESS takes and
evaluates sexually revelent stimuli and sends the turn on signal
like pressing the accelerator UH, and the s I s
IT takes in potential threats in the environment and sends
the turn off signal like pushing the brakes. And these
could include things like fear of social judgments or unwanted pregnancy.
(17:36):
And according to this book, a sensitive break is the
biggest predictor of sexual issues are problems, and you can
have high levels of both, low levels of both, average
levels of both are opposing values. All of this, trying
to understand sex is a big business refirment, and particularly
(17:56):
right now sexuality of women. Sex dysfunction fills of one
of the highest observed placebo effects in women, and that
is really really high. But that actually leads to the
next point. Another huge part of this book is sexual context,
which is pretty much the circumstance and environment of sex
and according to the author, is one of the most
(18:17):
important things when it comes to having sex. A part
of this is finding your emotional wandering, yes, the wondering
to rule them all like Lord of the Rings, yes.
The wondering breaks up pleasure into three things, enjoying, expecting,
an eagerness, she writes. Expecting anticipating eagerness, wanting and enjoying
(18:39):
liking our separate functions in your brain. You can want
without liking, craving, anticipate without wanting, dread, or any other combination.
For most people, the best context for sex is low
stress plus highly affectionate plus explicitly erotic. When it comes
to context, stress has a huge impact, which also varies
from person to person, which be a surprise. There are
(19:01):
flat liners stress hits the brakes versus redliners stress hits accelerator,
she writes. In fact, more than half of women report
that stress, depression, and anxiety decrease their interests in sects.
They also reduce sexual arousal and can interfere with orgasm.
Chronic stress also disrupts or suppresses the mistrual cycle, decreases
fertility and lactation, and increases miscarriage, as well as reducing
(19:25):
general response and increasing both distractability and pain. With sex
in a good sexual context, pretty much anything can turn
you on versus a bad one. Nothing well. The example,
she gives a lot of tickling how if you're in
a good place, tickling can be wonderful, but if you're
in a bad place, very annoying, you don't want it,
(19:46):
she says, annoying a lot. Yes, yes, trust is perhaps
obviously a part of a good context for a lot
of people. Not all people trust of others and of yourself.
That comes up to trusting your elf. One example of
this our fantasies. When it comes to fantasies, it's safe,
where the same situations in real life would be threatening.
(20:07):
One of the reasons I wanted to include that is
because I do like when I list out all the
crushes I've had in my life, almost all of them
are fictional, and so this made a lot of sense
to me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't have to
really worry about what's going to happen with this fictional character,
right I think you know, I talked about this before
because I feel that same way where I'm like, if
I am thinking of someone, I don't think of people
(20:29):
I actually know, actually know them, put it too real
And I'm like, oh, so I've never actually had that
as a thing for me. I think when I would
dream it, I would feel so awkward like, if I
had such stream about a person that I could not
look at them in the eye, I'm a Nope, we
can't talk about two weeks now. That's the periods COVID nineteen.
(20:50):
It's extremes at the same that's where I know my
quarantine all right, Yeah, it's extreme quarantine. That needs to
be a song. Um. Anyway, another part of context is trauma,
both for survivors and co survivors, um. And I thought
it was interesting that she included both perspectives because, um,
(21:10):
I know we've talked about co survivors before, but just
how it does impact them as well. And um. She
goes over three broad approaches to coping with residual trauma
top down approach processing the trauma, bottom up approach processing
your body, and the sideways approach mindfulness, And of course
she delves into so much more detail on all of
those things. If you again, if you are interested in
(21:32):
any of those, highly recommend you read the book. Um.
But yeah, those are the the ways of coping with
residual trauma. She goes into. Um, it also goes into
attachment styles and love and the impacts those things have
on sexual context, which I also found really interesting and
again she does have a workbook, So if you really
(21:53):
want to dig into where you are or working things out,
I think a workbook would be wonderful. And it also
goes into sex positivity in a sex negative culture. She
raised down the sex negativity into three main messages for
women around sex. One the moral message you are evil,
the medical message you are diseased, and the media message
you are inadequate. Linda A. Bacon literally wrote the book
(22:16):
on Hayes Health at Every Size, The Surprising Truth About
Your Weight, based on her decades of research on nutrition, exercise,
and health. And there are four major tenants according to
the Hayes Manifesto or again h A. E. S One,
accept your size, to trust yourself. Three adopt healthy lifestyle habits,
including joyful physical activity and nutritious foods. And for embrace
(22:38):
sized diversity. I think she does a really great job
in breaking down how we see ourselves as a young
girl before we are told what is right and what
is wrong. She does a wonderful job and how that
is fed into us and then we become doubting ourselves.
And I will tell you one of the reasons I
say a lot of the times I have so many
attachment issues and had so much trauma. I didn't have
sex until later on in life. Well, of course I
(23:01):
was also religious, but a big part that was also
my weight and being thicker and beginning being heavier than
what I knew was normal in a white culture, being
skinny is number one. Um so for me being a
thick Asian girl, which means I've already been disqualified of
two of the perfect standards. Would did not want anyone
to see me. I covered myself up. But think I
told you the story that I used to always wear
(23:23):
long skirts and T shirts because not just because you know,
oh yeah, I'm trying to stay pure, there's more of
I'm assumed of what my body looks like. This is
the best way to hide myself. Yeah yeah, And um,
she does spend a lot of time on weights and
on how so many of us, for so many women,
(23:44):
that is one thing that takes us out of sex
is that you're so focused on like what you feel
is wrong with your body. Um, and of course that's
gonna remove you from enjoying a moment. Uh. And yeah,
I mean I have some any friends and myself included
that we would you know, you wouldn't take off your
(24:04):
shirt when you went swimming, or you just didn't want
anybody looking at your body. And as she reiterates time
and time again, you weren't born with those thoughts. Uh.
The culture that you live in and the people in
your life unknowingly or knowingly gave you those thoughts. And
it's planted in your garden. It's planet, and it's a weed,
and you can decide to get rid of it or
(24:25):
to decide what to keep. But you do get to decide, uh, yes, yes,
and discussed you also talked about disgust when the huge
impact that has on the sex life of women, which
discussed is sexual disgust is largely associated with sexual pain disorders.
(24:46):
And I was just thinking about for me, as someone
who works on the show and a very like sex positive,
I still have just like lingering kind of knee jerk,
like when we did the sex Words episode and I
got so embarrassed or like just taught thinking about like
some of the things she would write about like sticky
uh and like smells and like it's not disgusting, but
(25:08):
I have that like knee jerk thing that I've just
been fed and it has grown within me continue to
say the word yum throughout I'm not gonna lie. It
kind of like made me have a moment especially and
I do I'm not gonna lie. I don't love the
term yuck. You're yum. I don't know why. It's always
been like, uh, I don't don't say that to me.
(25:28):
And the first time I heard it, which by the way,
was recently, I was like, what is what did you
say to me? But yeah, it definitely has like the
book has that moment of like, oh, I really need
to rethink about this as a normalized thing, because I
still have even as open and as forward as I
can be, it's still I still had moments of not
(25:49):
necessarily just triggered, but being very uncomfortable even though it
is absolutely normal. Yep, yep, yep. And the book does
go into some ways of learning these top messages of
body shame and him around sex and sexuality. And just
to be clear about the medical message of those those
three basic messages, she says, women gets um it not
(26:10):
only encompasses like things like unwanted pregnancy and S T
I S, but like a lower sex drive when compared
to a partner means you are broken or something is
wrong with you, that that there's something wrong with you
if your experience doesn't match this male as default experience. Right.
Also like her comparison, um, when she was talking about
the woman uh who had a disability who I think
(26:30):
she was in a wheelchair, was told by the doctor
that they couldn't help her pain and therefore she couldn't
have sex essentially, and then her being so frustrated. It's
true that doctors don't care about women enjoying sex, so
therefore they don't believe when a woman says they can't
have sex. That's where every man was talking about the
penis or having you know, erectile dysfunction that are immediately
(26:52):
able to prescribe something and say, yeah, absolutely we can
fix that. Yeah, it's so important that we fix so important. Yes. Um.
Another thing a lot of women report as part of
all of this messaging is spectator And I've heard from
a lot of my friends about this, and this is
basically being outside of your body while having sex. And
(27:12):
it's usually things like yeah, worried about how you look, um,
about whether or not you're going to orgasm, like having
this pressure to to do that. Um, all kinds of things,
and I remember forever ago we did an episode on
on that, and I'm sure the numbers have changed now,
but at the time it was like, what are most
we've been thinking about when they have sex? And it
was like body image, orgasm. And the third one was
(27:35):
like groceries or like based daily plans. Yeah, like all
the stuff they have to do essentially in stress is
a huge, huge, huge part of what Nagaski believes is
impacting sex lives. And we are going to talk about that, um,
but first we're gonna take one more quick break for
a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. Right, So,
(28:11):
something else the book tackles is the power of self
criticism as a moral force and the difficulty of letting
it go. I think we've all been there, which also
is a huge stressor that doesn't just impact sex, but
all aspects of our lives, particularly women's lives. And we've
seen it as we are in the middle again of
a pandemic and responsibilities following a lot on the women
(28:31):
in the household or the main uh female partner. And
one of the main ways to combat self criticism, according
to Nagaski, is self compassion, which is further broken down
into self kindness, which is really hard to be kind
to yourself sometimes. But she did a really great um
exercise in which she tells you to write a letter
(28:53):
and address it to your daughter or your sister, and
then apply that same language to yourself. I think that's wonderful.
Common humanity, the opposite of isolation, which is funny right
now talking about what's happening but you know, and then
mindfulness being non judgmental about what's happening at the current moment,
(29:14):
even though she also talks about the whole going back
and forth about being annoyed for being annoyed and how
to let go of that. Uh huh, Yeah. I hadn't
really thought about that until I read that section. I
was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that is something I experienced
quite a bit of. And mindfulness is something I've been
working on a lot during quarantine, and it has changed
(29:36):
I can notice, like incremental improvements in the way I
treat myself. Yeah, she talks about it as also not
just for sucks, but just like your anxiety and depression.
How it is really helpful and it has been, as
we know, kind of a lot of these apps and
meditation apps are specifically not necessarily about meditation, but mindfulness
and had rewarded what that is and how that is
helpful and beneficial. Yes. Uh. Another main focus of the
(30:01):
book is something called non concordance, and she writes how
most people don't know what this is or don't understand
it properly, and I definitely count myself in that group. Um,
So this is something everyone experiences when genital response doesn't
match the experience of arousal, which arousal is something that
happens in the brain, or having a biological response to
(30:24):
sexually relevant data, so expecting but not experiencing the eagerness
or enjoying part of pleasure necessarily um. One study found
that the overlap between these two is as low as
ten percent for women about for men. Yeah, that number
was shocking. That temper sent kind of just sat there
at that number. I was like, Wow, they have that's
(30:46):
a giant, huge difference, and that's a low ass number. Yeah.
And this is another thing with the mail as default um,
because she gives the example of fifty Shades of Great
which I never read, but I've read a lot of
fan fiction that uses the same idea. Of like, well,
your body can't lie, Like you can tell me one thing,
(31:07):
but your body is telling me something else. And this
leads to a dangerous habit of assuming that women's bodies
are the quote honest indicators and that yeah, they're lying
or in denial when they tell you otherwise. And we've
seen the power of this messaging when it comes to
sexual assault cases, even representatives in our government. Right. She
(31:29):
puts out the one specific example of is it the
representative who said that if a woman is raped, their
body automatically has defenses. You're yeah, you're like, what so
if you get pregnant the understanding and this old understanding,
if there's some part of your body that was into it,
which is so so damaging and awful and a huge lie. Wrong, wrong, wrong,
(31:57):
But yeah, I think that's she. I love that she
does talk about that. She even talks about it as
for men um and she had that one example of
a guy who didn't stop assault happening because he had
an erection, but and so that he felt like that
meant he was also a pervert too. In actuality, there's
a lot of things that have happened between men and
(32:18):
women when things, again are your body physically reacts to
something that it has nothing to do with what your
desire actually is. And so I was like, Wow, she
flipped that. She flipped that on his head, and that's
a really great example. Also frustrated me know that there
are a lot of men out there who has seen
this happen and don't say anything. Yea, And that pissed
me off. But that's a whole that's a whole other conversation.
(32:39):
But that was one of those that I sat there
from me and I was like, huh, this would be
an interesting episode. Let's talk about it. Why is it?
But anyway, I digress. So Nagaski also digs into the
size of spontaneous versus responsive desire, which kicks in after
sexy things have already happened, as opposed to just seeing
someone and wanting sex versus context dependent desire, which is
design that really depends on the context. Yeah. And and
(33:04):
it was interesting because throughout the book she has these
four couples that she's using as examples of working through
these things to help give you a concrete example, and
just it seems like every couple did not understand the
differences in this um. Another point she hammers home is
that sex is not a drive but an incentive motivation system,
(33:27):
and that calling sex a drive fosters an environment where
women think they're sick. The percentage of that experienced spontaneous
desire is far lower than men. And it also fosters
a sense of male sexual entitlement that it's this thing
that they have to have. And I haven't honestly thought
much about that verbiage and the depth of the mean
that it has attached to it, because yeah, I've I've
(33:49):
heard that term, and I've used that term, and then
we're thinking, oh, yeah, sex is not needed for living,
as in, it's not going to kill you if you
don't have sex, and about placing it as a need.
It does give men in society an excuse of having
sex as a means of survival, so it is not
necessarily something they earn but must have and it is given. Um,
(34:09):
it's such a breakdown in language, which we've talked about
so many times and again another way of controlling women.
So we know it on the surface, like we know
this on the surface, but language like this it does
have a very dangerous consequence. And I kind of like, wow, yeah,
she really that she's completely right. Sex drivers should be
eliminated from our language because it has this verbish that
(34:31):
men can't control themselves, shouldn't have to control themselves because
it is instinct. And that's yep. And I know we've
talked about before, um, growing up and just feeling like
it was my duty, Like if a guy heaven forbide
have blueballs when I've done something terrible and I would owe.
(34:52):
It's like, yeah, it's it's very damaging being in a relationship,
being in that close proximity, being uh flirty means that
they are owed this act whether you want to or not.
And that's such a wow, kind of just blew my mine.
I was like, yeah, that that language in itself builds
itself up to have that toxicity and allows them to
(35:16):
get away with these things. Yeah, um, yep. But pivoting, Uh.
There is a whole section on orgasms um, which she
defines as quote the sudden, involuntary release of sexual tension
uh and further quote, orgasms vary from woman to woman,
(35:37):
from context to context. They happen while you're making love,
and sometimes they don't. They happen while you're masturbating, and
sometimes they don't. They can happen from clatorial stimulation, vaginal stimulation,
thigh stimulation, anal stimulation, stimulation, earlobe stimulation, or a mental
stimulation with no physical contact at all or not during
any of these. They can happen while you're asleep, while
you're exercising, or while you're in a variety of other
(35:59):
completely on sexual situations. They can be delightful, humdrum, spiritual, annoying, ecstatic, fun,
or frustrating. Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're not. Sometimes you
want them, sometimes you don't. And by the way, she
has a whole uh section on different ways to have
different types of orgasm. Yes, yes she does, and I
really appreciated she put this in there because I do
(36:21):
think as a culture, we've built the orgasm into this
like end all, be all. If you don't have it,
something's wrong. But you know, it does vary depending on
the mood and context, and sometimes you know, they're fine,
sometimes they are amazing. You know. I've talked about some
more gasses on the show, and this actually made me
(36:43):
feel better about it because I was like, oh, look,
it turns out that could happen, and I'm not some
total outlier uh, you are better disciplined than the rest
of us. Apparently, I found a context that works for me.
But back to orgasms, in this context can also be
(37:04):
non concordant. Because we societally treated men's pleasure as a
default pleasure, we expect women to orgasm reliably from being
this vaginal intercourse, yeah, which can sometimes happen, but sometimes
don't and only do and SEV don't. And I think
that's kind of one of those things that have slowly
(37:26):
sleeped out to the world that people are starting to
realize it's okay and sometimes it just never happens. Um
of women who masturbated it with little to no vaginal stimulation,
focusing primarily on the clearers. I knew it, you knew it.
I knew it, you knew it. But yeah, I mean,
(37:46):
I think it's it's not just men, Like I grew
up thinking that too, Like that's yeah, I do. I
do also love. She deals into the same time orgasm.
She talks about how rare that isn't that's great if
you can and if you like it, wonderful, but it's
not a you know, necessary thing, and it's not common,
so it's okay, yeah, yeah, And I also like how
(38:09):
she talks about, like the pressure especially on women to
have an orgasm almost means you're not going to have one,
Like it's one of those things that's taking you out
of the moment of enjoying um so. And also just
to reiterate she said in that quote reliably, like it
doesn't mean you you never will during penis vaginanat intercourse,
(38:30):
just like that reliable part of it. And then that's
the only way, yes, it is not no no no.
She also goes into things like meta emotions or is yeah,
how you feel about your emotions being annoyed about being annoyed? Uh,
and Matt versus terrain, how we're told sex should be
and how it actually is, and how all of that
(38:51):
plays into our ideas of sex and if sex is
something that you're you're into, how how that sex can
play out and how you can change those things and
just be to be mindful of those things too, is
a big part of realizing, Uh, you're the messaging you've
received and how that impacts all of your life. But
(39:14):
also sex, what is being planted in your garden? What
is being planted in your garden? What do you want
to get rid of what do you want to keep? Um,
and I mean communication too is I mean we could
say that in every episode, but communication is key and
not feeling embarrassed about having these honest conversations and not
(39:34):
being embarrassed that you don't necessarily know like work and
doing that work and figuring out what you do like
and being able to communicate that. Yeah, it's very powerful stuff. Yes,
it had me feeling like I gotta share this with
everybody I know, And well that's her ends. She's like,
make sure it's just share. If you share just one person,
(39:56):
I've done my job. Just spread it amongst the people's. Yeah, well, uh,
you know, I guess we've done part of our job
and we are our listeners for that because I yeah,
great suggestion, and yeah, yeah, Honestly, this book it's just
a wealth of information. There's so so many things we
can unpack. It's so full of things I wish I
(40:18):
had known when I was much much younger, and we
really only touched on the surface. So definitely recommend it
if any of what we've said resonate with you or
you want to learn more about any of the things
we touched on, because we really didn't go in depth
with with much of this. So it's a lot, it
is and it's worth it. It's worth it um. But
(40:38):
in the meantime, we would love any other book recommendations
or recommendations at large, or just to hear from you.
How are you doing? Uh? You can email us at
Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or
on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as
always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks
to you for listening. Dephone Never Told You subsection of
(41:01):
iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio, visits iHeart
Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you're listening to your
favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I welcome to Steph.
I'm never told your protection of I Heart Radio for
today's question, what I want to know? Oh yeah, oh yeah.
(00:25):
What is something a sex smith or belief that you
held that you later learned you were way way off? Okay,
I'm trying to think if you want, I can go first,
because I got a good one. Yeah, you go first.
So I believed, and this isn't really sex, but it's
(00:46):
a misunderstanding of your female body. I believed that you
had your baby came out the belly button, and that
administration was a myth, and if in fact it was real,
I thought it happened in your ears. And the only
reason I learned this wasn't true was because I kind
(01:07):
of was like joking about, well, you know it comes
out your ears and your and my mom's like, um,
well yeah, then yes, of course we all give birth
out our horb our ears. And I was like, oh no, wait,
why did you think it was your ears? I because
(01:27):
I thought, I literally have friends who are mad about this.
But I thought, because my brother never went to administraution,
that it was a myth. But he did have like
his ears would bleed and my ears would bleed, um,
and so I thought, maybe that's what people were talking about. Wow.
(01:47):
Yeah yeah. And then when I actually did have my
first period, I thought, you only got it once. And
when happened again, that's when I was devastated. When I learned, oh,
this is okay, this is forever until you still draw
essentially okay, Wow, that's I have never that's the first
(02:08):
for me as a miss or a misunderstanding of that
as the first I've ever heard that as an explanation.
Not the belly button part, because you know, I think
we all kind of believe that because I did too
follows younger obviously they came out of the belly button um,
but the ear wow. Yeah. I honestly can't remember, because
I was a kid that would learn things and then
(02:30):
tell people like I was the bad kid. Uh, and
that was my rebellion because I was very I was
sexualized really young. So I can't remember not knowing at
least the basics kind of of sex. Except for the
fact that I don't know, I can't remember. Ah man,
(02:52):
I can think of so many I had, um, but
one we're going to talk about in this is I thought, uh,
sex was just supposed to hurt for women. I think
that's what I believed as well, that that sex would
always hurt for women and it didn't matter um as
well as, of course, the beliefs that women can't say no,
(03:13):
as well as that they are obligated have sex. Yeah,
so I know the negative things. So at the gal
at the gate, nasty gross a lot not nasty grows,
but really sad nasty misconceptions of sex, but not necessarily
myths of sex. So I did believe that those things
made sense in my reality. But yeah, the ear and
(03:36):
the period, that's a new one for me. I told
all my friends that they thought it too. They did too,
that misinformation. I gave bad information. And let me tell
you how many angry phone calls I got when my
friends got their first period. Oh my god. I had
(03:56):
to apologize many, many, many times you lied to me.
I didn't know. I guess some of those things I
didn't think about, Like with periods, I didn't even think
about it. And then like coming because I didn't know
about periods at all. And then as you learn about
sucks and I'm like, oh, this is gonna suck. Yeah,
(04:16):
I in my class group. I matured faster, so people
would always ask me questions about those kinds of things,
like my friends would, so they I think I learned
about it from them, But then I had no clearly
no information, no useful information to share. But I too thought,
(04:38):
you know, I matured early, early, so I thought I
would know, And I hadn't had my period yet, so
there must not be real. My brother never had one,
so it's all a big lie. One of the big
lies about female bodies that I learned as a kid
because it was like such a big deal. And of
course this is again the whole pitting women as objects
and procreation machines. Was that minute you have your period,
(05:00):
as a minute you become a woman, and it should
be celebrated or it should be shamed, one of those
two things, nothing in between. And so when I didn't
get that, well, I kind of got shamed in the
sense of like you don't need to make a big
deal of it type of thing, but not like, oh,
this is awful, you did something wrong. But yeah, that
was a misconception I had that it was that big
of a deal. And I specifically remember a Cosby episode
(05:25):
in which one of the girls get their period and
they start talking about having hips and being sexy now,
and the mom getting so upset because she wanted to
celebrate with her and becoming a woman and make this
whole day of being feminine and a woman. And I'm
like what and thinking that's the way it should be.
And then the whole misconception of this makes you a
woman is so untrue, which is dated way back in
(05:47):
the idea that the minute you have your period is
the minute you start trying for children, because that's what
you're good for. As we know this, women were sold
off at that point of being a woman because they
bled quote unquote but yeah, huh years huh yes, So
clearly I could have used better information as a child,
and I could have used the book we're talking about today.
(06:10):
Brief trigger warning before we get into this. There's just
mentions of a sexual assault and trauma. Nothing too big,
but just put that out there. Um. Today we are
talking about Emily Nagaski's Come as You Are, the surprising
new science that will transform your sex life, which a
couple of you have written in about and suggested so
(06:30):
we always take in the book club recommendations are pretty
much any recommendation, so keep those coming, thank you. Yeah.
Nagaski is a sex educator who is passionate and if
you read her book as well as listen to any
of the audio that she does, she's definitely passionate about
sharing her knowledge and using science and evidence to improve
our understanding of women's sexual well being, Thank you very much.
(06:53):
And in her exchanges with women and students, one of
the number one things that she hears from women who
have taken her classes some version of quote I learned
I am normal, which is super nice to hear because
you want to know that you're not strange and off balance,
and that all of us vary and that's normal too,
and all the same parts organizing different ways is the
(07:13):
mantra throughout this book. Yes uh. And the book uses
science and the diverse stories of real women to unpack
so much of the cultural shame and discuss women have
been taught around our bodies and around sex and how
we can unlearn those toxic messages and practice self compassion.
Like with worksheets, there's activities which both Samantha and I
(07:37):
are Berrian. Did you do those? I was gonna ask
that earlier, Yeah, I did too. And I was sitting
there and doing those with the I didn't write everything
out because it was, oh my, okay, this is too much.
I'm not ready for all of this. But it's a
great workbook because she does have a workbook with it too,
But like, it's a great exercise for couples who are
trying to go through their own miscommunky shows and understanding
(08:00):
of each other. So it is nice. But yeah, it
was very enlightening. Oh it was yeah, absolutely Uh And
according to Reddit users in our slash sex, this book
transformed a lot of their sex lives. Um, there's a
whole conversation on there about it. Uh, and it's very encouraging.
I'm very happy for a lot of them, right. Um.
(08:22):
And I want to say, as someone I've been pretty open,
I don't particularly want sex. I've never had sex. I enjoyed.
I still found this very very interesting and enlightening. I
learned a lot a lot. Uh. In fact, I'm kind
of like almost everything she touches on this in this book,
I was like, oh, that could be a whole episode.
That could be a whole episode. Yeah, So we really
(08:43):
had to condense it for this book club, but I'm
sure we'll return to some of the topics she touches
on future episodes. UM. And it definitely helped me make
sense of things I've experienced with sexual assault, UM and
also what turns me on, which I get so many
questions about this because my friends just sort of don't understand,
and that's totally fine, but it was this helped me
(09:05):
understand myself even more. Yeah, yeah, because I have experienced
a lot of confusion around around that and around what
I thought was a very abnormal thing to be turned
on by essentially not really. Yeah, she does a great
job and she I love her one line when she
talks about her friend, when she says, I just don't
(09:28):
want sex and that's okay. Of course I think that
unfolded to her and her partner, but it was like, yeah,
that's exactly what should be said. If you don't want
sex was not abnormal. You don't have to have sex,
and that's okay too. I did. Look, I know we're
gonna talk more about it, but that was that made
me think of you, because I know we've talked to
many of times about feeling you feeling like it's wrong
(09:51):
that you didn't want to have sex, and felt guilty
about that, So I did love that line, but uh,
it was tw when she wrote this, and I think
we've kind of come little ways, not a long ways.
But she does have a caveat, which is quote for
most of the time. When I say women in this book,
I mean people who are born in female bodies, were
raised as girls, and now have the social role in
(10:12):
psychological identity of women. And there are plenty of women
who don't fit one or more of those categories. But
there's two little research on trans and gender queer sexual
functioning for me to say with certainty whether it what's
true about since gender women's sexual well being is also
true for trans folks. Yes, and there's actually some been
some conversation around that recently, right, And she tells a
(10:34):
little bit into it about gender queer sexuality. But yeah,
we have seen an opening of new studies as of
recent But I hate that caveat. Yeah, yeah, that's unfortunate, right,
but it's true sometimes what you don't have you don't know. Um. Also, Okay,
there are plenty of metaphors and puns throughout, so be
(10:56):
prepared and excited. Just the usage of the term the
guard and it's not what you think she was. But
when I initially harder say the Garden, I was like,
oh no, oh yeah, what's there's some movie reference you
throw in there? And I was like whoa. Yeah. I
(11:17):
was like, okay, okay, we're going completely from a different basis. Okay,
I liked it. I liked it. So the book is
divided into four parts. One the not so basic basics
to sex and Context, Three, Sex and Action, and for
Ecstasy for Everybody. Each of these parts are then further
(11:38):
broken down into topics and yes, it is complete with
worksheets and activities. And I will say, um, it's not
a difficult read at all, but it's very dense, like
you're learning a lot in a short Like every sentence
you're like, wait, let me sit with this person, right,
And that definitely comes in with like, while we tell
you there's puns and force, there's also a lot of
(11:59):
science behind it and a lot of evidence based. So
therefore you're gonna get too technical terms and you have
to kind of re assess the words over and over
again because you don't technically apply these things in sexuality
most of the t So, yeah, you definitely have a
moment like let me go back. What did she just say,
let me look at this. Okay, cool, cool, cool, Yeah,
And she does a great job of explaining it. It's
(12:21):
just dance, not not difficult, but dan in a good way.
Surprisingly human sexuality, there's a lot to be said and
a lot of science there. Um. One of the first
things that book tackles is the man is default miss,
something we've talked about so much on this show, and
how damaging that is and has been in making women
believe something is wrong with them if their experience doesn't
(12:44):
match men's, and particularly in male partners. Nagaski calls this
men's sexuality light like this belief that we've treated women's
sexuality as exactly the same as men's sexuality but lesser. Right,
whether it's lesser as in doesn't mean as much, and
or there's something wrong with those women because they can't match, Yes,
and with the science for a long time hasn't been
(13:07):
there because we've just assumed, you know, science has just
assumed women are the same. So as a part of this,
women surprise, have been told a lot of lies, she writes,
just relaxed. They've been told have a glass of wine,
or women just don't want sex that much, get over it?
Or sometimes sex hers. Can't you just ignore it? I've
(13:30):
heard every single lot of this, every single one. Uh.
And this idea that women should feel shame around their
sexuality is an old idea. According to her quote, medieval
anatomist called women's external genitals the pudendum, a word derived
from the Latin hoodera, meaning to make ashamed. And I'm
(13:51):
sure I butchered that pronunciation. I did not take Latin.
I didn't take Latin either. You're better with languages than
I am. Uh. And since has been this long history
of misinformation of just the bare minimum of science and
understanding around the female body. The book starts with the
not so basic basics, so examination into female body parts,
(14:12):
how they work, and how all of that interacts with
the brain. And one of the key parts of this
section is the clitterest dot dot dot, So, she writes,
the clitterest is, Oh, here we go. The hokey pokey
is what it's all about. Two turntables and a microphone
is where it's at, a visa card, It's everywhere you
want to be. Is your grand central station of erotic sensation,
(14:33):
averaging just one eighth the size of a penis, yet
loaded with nearly double the nerve endings. It can range
in size from a barely visible p to a fair
sized ghirkin and anywhere in between, and it's all normal,
all beautiful. Unlike the penis, the clitter sists only job
is sensation. The penis says four jobs, sensation, penetration, ejaculation
(14:54):
in your nation, two different ways of functioning, one shared
biological origin. Yeah, and if that wasn't enough, she really
hammers home the power of knowing where your clearest is,
not just the clears in general, but yours. And in fact,
of the first things she suggests is is getting a
mirror and looking at your genitals and finding it. As
(15:14):
a sex educator, she also discusses the difficulty of finding
images of Volva's that aren't thin, white shaped, and how
that impacts what we all think Volva's should look like,
because again, there is so much variation. But if you're
only getting shown this one type, this one type of image,
then of course you're going to form in your head,
(15:35):
going to compare how yours is different. Another thing this
section spends time on is the hymen, and there are
so so many myths and powerful stories about the hymen,
most of them to control women. The idea the hyman
ism marker of precious, precious virginity, which in itself is
(15:55):
biologically meaningless. There's even hyman reconstructive sir injury. Women have
been killed over not having one, are told they couldn't
have been raped because their hyman isn't damaged. So some
hyman myths. She goes into that it breaks and stays broken.
Everyone has a hyman, which isn't true. The size changes
(16:16):
based on penetration, it doesn't, it bleeds, it usually doesn't.
The bleeding is usually a vaginal tearing due to lack
of lubrication. But again, I've heard all of those things too,
that precious precious jewel. Yeah, we have so much more
to go over, but first we have a quick break
for a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(16:51):
you sponsor. Right. So, Another key aspect of the book
are sexual response models, particularly the dual control model. While
earlier models didn't accoun for desire, this one does. Finally,
As the name suggests, it comprises two main parts, sex
accelerators and brakes. To get more specific, you have the
sexual excitation system, says and the sexual inhibition system SIS
(17:14):
that vary from person to person. The SESS takes and
evaluates sexually revelent stimuli and sends the turn on signal
like pressing the accelerator UH, and the s I s
IT takes in potential threats in the environment and sends
the turn off signal like pushing the brakes. And these
could include things like fear of social judgments or unwanted pregnancy.
(17:36):
And according to this book, a sensitive break is the
biggest predictor of sexual issues are problems, and you can
have high levels of both, low levels of both, average
levels of both are opposing values. All of this, trying
to understand sex is a big business refirment, and particularly
(17:56):
right now sexuality of women. Sex dysfunction fills of one
of the highest observed placebo effects in women, and that
is really really high. But that actually leads to the
next point. Another huge part of this book is sexual context,
which is pretty much the circumstance and environment of sex
and according to the author, is one of the most
(18:17):
important things when it comes to having sex. A part
of this is finding your emotional wandering, yes, the wondering
to rule them all like Lord of the Rings, yes.
The wondering breaks up pleasure into three things, enjoying, expecting,
an eagerness, she writes. Expecting anticipating eagerness, wanting and enjoying
(18:39):
liking our separate functions in your brain. You can want
without liking, craving, anticipate without wanting, dread, or any other combination.
For most people, the best context for sex is low
stress plus highly affectionate plus explicitly erotic. When it comes
to context, stress has a huge impact, which also varies
from person to person, which be a surprise. There are
(19:01):
flat liners stress hits the brakes versus redliners stress hits accelerator,
she writes. In fact, more than half of women report
that stress, depression, and anxiety decrease their interests in sects.
They also reduce sexual arousal and can interfere with orgasm.
Chronic stress also disrupts or suppresses the mistrual cycle, decreases
fertility and lactation, and increases miscarriage, as well as reducing
(19:25):
general response and increasing both distractability and pain. With sex
in a good sexual context, pretty much anything can turn
you on versus a bad one. Nothing well. The example,
she gives a lot of tickling how if you're in
a good place, tickling can be wonderful, but if you're
in a bad place, very annoying, you don't want it,
(19:46):
she says, annoying a lot. Yes, yes, trust is perhaps
obviously a part of a good context for a lot
of people. Not all people trust of others and of yourself.
That comes up to trusting your elf. One example of
this our fantasies. When it comes to fantasies, it's safe,
where the same situations in real life would be threatening.
(20:07):
One of the reasons I wanted to include that is
because I do like when I list out all the
crushes I've had in my life, almost all of them
are fictional, and so this made a lot of sense
to me. I'm like, oh, yeah, I don't have to
really worry about what's going to happen with this fictional character,
right I think you know, I talked about this before
because I feel that same way where I'm like, if
I am thinking of someone, I don't think of people
(20:29):
I actually know, actually know them, put it too real
And I'm like, oh, so I've never actually had that
as a thing for me. I think when I would
dream it, I would feel so awkward like, if I
had such stream about a person that I could not
look at them in the eye, I'm a Nope, we
can't talk about two weeks now. That's the periods COVID nineteen.
(20:50):
It's extremes at the same that's where I know my
quarantine all right, Yeah, it's extreme quarantine. That needs to
be a song. Um. Anyway, another part of context is trauma,
both for survivors and co survivors, um. And I thought
it was interesting that she included both perspectives because, um,
(21:10):
I know we've talked about co survivors before, but just
how it does impact them as well. And um. She
goes over three broad approaches to coping with residual trauma
top down approach processing the trauma, bottom up approach processing
your body, and the sideways approach mindfulness, And of course
she delves into so much more detail on all of
those things. If you again, if you are interested in
(21:32):
any of those, highly recommend you read the book. Um.
But yeah, those are the the ways of coping with
residual trauma. She goes into. Um, it also goes into
attachment styles and love and the impacts those things have
on sexual context, which I also found really interesting and
again she does have a workbook, So if you really
(21:53):
want to dig into where you are or working things out,
I think a workbook would be wonderful. And it also
goes into sex positivity in a sex negative culture. She
raised down the sex negativity into three main messages for
women around sex. One the moral message you are evil,
the medical message you are diseased, and the media message
you are inadequate. Linda A. Bacon literally wrote the book
(22:16):
on Hayes Health at Every Size, The Surprising Truth About
Your Weight, based on her decades of research on nutrition, exercise,
and health. And there are four major tenants according to
the Hayes Manifesto or again h A. E. S One,
accept your size, to trust yourself. Three adopt healthy lifestyle habits,
including joyful physical activity and nutritious foods. And for embrace
(22:38):
sized diversity. I think she does a really great job
in breaking down how we see ourselves as a young
girl before we are told what is right and what
is wrong. She does a wonderful job and how that
is fed into us and then we become doubting ourselves.
And I will tell you one of the reasons I
say a lot of the times I have so many
attachment issues and had so much trauma. I didn't have
sex until later on in life. Well, of course I
(23:01):
was also religious, but a big part that was also
my weight and being thicker and beginning being heavier than
what I knew was normal in a white culture, being
skinny is number one. Um so for me being a
thick Asian girl, which means I've already been disqualified of
two of the perfect standards. Would did not want anyone
to see me. I covered myself up. But think I
told you the story that I used to always wear
(23:23):
long skirts and T shirts because not just because you know,
oh yeah, I'm trying to stay pure, there's more of
I'm assumed of what my body looks like. This is
the best way to hide myself. Yeah yeah, And um,
she does spend a lot of time on weights and
on how so many of us, for so many women,
(23:44):
that is one thing that takes us out of sex
is that you're so focused on like what you feel
is wrong with your body. Um, and of course that's
gonna remove you from enjoying a moment. Uh. And yeah,
I mean I have some any friends and myself included
that we would you know, you wouldn't take off your
(24:04):
shirt when you went swimming, or you just didn't want
anybody looking at your body. And as she reiterates time
and time again, you weren't born with those thoughts. Uh.
The culture that you live in and the people in
your life unknowingly or knowingly gave you those thoughts. And
it's planted in your garden. It's planet, and it's a weed,
and you can decide to get rid of it or
(24:25):
to decide what to keep. But you do get to decide, uh, yes, yes,
and discussed you also talked about disgust when the huge
impact that has on the sex life of women, which
discussed is sexual disgust is largely associated with sexual pain disorders.
(24:46):
And I was just thinking about for me, as someone
who works on the show and a very like sex positive,
I still have just like lingering kind of knee jerk,
like when we did the sex Words episode and I
got so embarrassed or like just taught thinking about like
some of the things she would write about like sticky
uh and like smells and like it's not disgusting, but
(25:08):
I have that like knee jerk thing that I've just
been fed and it has grown within me continue to
say the word yum throughout I'm not gonna lie. It
kind of like made me have a moment especially and
I do I'm not gonna lie. I don't love the
term yuck. You're yum. I don't know why. It's always
been like, uh, I don't don't say that to me.
(25:28):
And the first time I heard it, which by the way,
was recently, I was like, what is what did you
say to me? But yeah, it definitely has like the
book has that moment of like, oh, I really need
to rethink about this as a normalized thing, because I
still have even as open and as forward as I
can be, it's still I still had moments of not
(25:49):
necessarily just triggered, but being very uncomfortable even though it
is absolutely normal. Yep, yep, yep. And the book does
go into some ways of learning these top messages of
body shame and him around sex and sexuality. And just
to be clear about the medical message of those those
three basic messages, she says, women gets um it not
(26:10):
only encompasses like things like unwanted pregnancy and S T
I S, but like a lower sex drive when compared
to a partner means you are broken or something is
wrong with you, that that there's something wrong with you
if your experience doesn't match this male as default experience. Right.
Also like her comparison, um, when she was talking about
the woman uh who had a disability who I think
(26:30):
she was in a wheelchair, was told by the doctor
that they couldn't help her pain and therefore she couldn't
have sex essentially, and then her being so frustrated. It's
true that doctors don't care about women enjoying sex, so
therefore they don't believe when a woman says they can't
have sex. That's where every man was talking about the
penis or having you know, erectile dysfunction that are immediately
(26:52):
able to prescribe something and say, yeah, absolutely we can
fix that. Yeah, it's so important that we fix so important. Yes. Um.
Another thing a lot of women report as part of
all of this messaging is spectator And I've heard from
a lot of my friends about this, and this is
basically being outside of your body while having sex. And
(27:12):
it's usually things like yeah, worried about how you look, um,
about whether or not you're going to orgasm, like having
this pressure to to do that. Um, all kinds of things,
and I remember forever ago we did an episode on
on that, and I'm sure the numbers have changed now,
but at the time it was like, what are most
we've been thinking about when they have sex? And it
was like body image, orgasm. And the third one was
(27:35):
like groceries or like based daily plans. Yeah, like all
the stuff they have to do essentially in stress is
a huge, huge, huge part of what Nagaski believes is
impacting sex lives. And we are going to talk about that, um,
but first we're gonna take one more quick break for
a word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsoring. Right, So,
(28:11):
something else the book tackles is the power of self
criticism as a moral force and the difficulty of letting
it go. I think we've all been there, which also
is a huge stressor that doesn't just impact sex, but
all aspects of our lives, particularly women's lives. And we've
seen it as we are in the middle again of
a pandemic and responsibilities following a lot on the women
(28:31):
in the household or the main uh female partner. And
one of the main ways to combat self criticism, according
to Nagaski, is self compassion, which is further broken down
into self kindness, which is really hard to be kind
to yourself sometimes. But she did a really great um
exercise in which she tells you to write a letter
(28:53):
and address it to your daughter or your sister, and
then apply that same language to yourself. I think that's wonderful.
Common humanity, the opposite of isolation, which is funny right
now talking about what's happening but you know, and then
mindfulness being non judgmental about what's happening at the current moment,
(29:14):
even though she also talks about the whole going back
and forth about being annoyed for being annoyed and how
to let go of that. Uh huh, Yeah. I hadn't
really thought about that until I read that section. I
was like, oh, yeah, yeah, that is something I experienced
quite a bit of. And mindfulness is something I've been
working on a lot during quarantine, and it has changed
(29:36):
I can notice, like incremental improvements in the way I
treat myself. Yeah, she talks about it as also not
just for sucks, but just like your anxiety and depression.
How it is really helpful and it has been, as
we know, kind of a lot of these apps and
meditation apps are specifically not necessarily about meditation, but mindfulness
and had rewarded what that is and how that is
helpful and beneficial. Yes. Uh. Another main focus of the
(30:01):
book is something called non concordance, and she writes how
most people don't know what this is or don't understand
it properly, and I definitely count myself in that group. Um,
So this is something everyone experiences when genital response doesn't
match the experience of arousal, which arousal is something that
happens in the brain, or having a biological response to
(30:24):
sexually relevant data, so expecting but not experiencing the eagerness
or enjoying part of pleasure necessarily um. One study found
that the overlap between these two is as low as
ten percent for women about for men. Yeah, that number
was shocking. That temper sent kind of just sat there
at that number. I was like, Wow, they have that's
(30:46):
a giant, huge difference, and that's a low ass number. Yeah.
And this is another thing with the mail as default um,
because she gives the example of fifty Shades of Great
which I never read, but I've read a lot of
fan fiction that uses the same idea. Of like, well,
your body can't lie, Like you can tell me one thing,
(31:07):
but your body is telling me something else. And this
leads to a dangerous habit of assuming that women's bodies
are the quote honest indicators and that yeah, they're lying
or in denial when they tell you otherwise. And we've
seen the power of this messaging when it comes to
sexual assault cases, even representatives in our government. Right. She
(31:29):
puts out the one specific example of is it the
representative who said that if a woman is raped, their
body automatically has defenses. You're yeah, you're like, what so
if you get pregnant the understanding and this old understanding,
if there's some part of your body that was into it,
which is so so damaging and awful and a huge lie. Wrong, wrong, wrong,
(31:57):
But yeah, I think that's she. I love that she
does talk about that. She even talks about it as
for men um and she had that one example of
a guy who didn't stop assault happening because he had
an erection, but and so that he felt like that
meant he was also a pervert too. In actuality, there's
a lot of things that have happened between men and
(32:18):
women when things, again are your body physically reacts to
something that it has nothing to do with what your
desire actually is. And so I was like, Wow, she
flipped that. She flipped that on his head, and that's
a really great example. Also frustrated me know that there
are a lot of men out there who has seen
this happen and don't say anything. Yea, And that pissed
me off. But that's a whole that's a whole other conversation.
(32:39):
But that was one of those that I sat there
from me and I was like, huh, this would be
an interesting episode. Let's talk about it. Why is it?
But anyway, I digress. So Nagaski also digs into the
size of spontaneous versus responsive desire, which kicks in after
sexy things have already happened, as opposed to just seeing
someone and wanting sex versus context dependent desire, which is
design that really depends on the context. Yeah. And and
(33:04):
it was interesting because throughout the book she has these
four couples that she's using as examples of working through
these things to help give you a concrete example, and
just it seems like every couple did not understand the
differences in this um. Another point she hammers home is
that sex is not a drive but an incentive motivation system,
(33:27):
and that calling sex a drive fosters an environment where
women think they're sick. The percentage of that experienced spontaneous
desire is far lower than men. And it also fosters
a sense of male sexual entitlement that it's this thing
that they have to have. And I haven't honestly thought
much about that verbiage and the depth of the mean
that it has attached to it, because yeah, I've I've
(33:49):
heard that term, and I've used that term, and then
we're thinking, oh, yeah, sex is not needed for living,
as in, it's not going to kill you if you
don't have sex, and about placing it as a need.
It does give men in society an excuse of having
sex as a means of survival, so it is not
necessarily something they earn but must have and it is given. Um,
(34:09):
it's such a breakdown in language, which we've talked about
so many times and again another way of controlling women.
So we know it on the surface, like we know
this on the surface, but language like this it does
have a very dangerous consequence. And I kind of like, wow, yeah,
she really that she's completely right. Sex drivers should be
eliminated from our language because it has this verbish that
(34:31):
men can't control themselves, shouldn't have to control themselves because
it is instinct. And that's yep. And I know we've
talked about before, um, growing up and just feeling like
it was my duty, Like if a guy heaven forbide
have blueballs when I've done something terrible and I would owe.
(34:52):
It's like, yeah, it's it's very damaging being in a relationship,
being in that close proximity, being uh flirty means that
they are owed this act whether you want to or not.
And that's such a wow, kind of just blew my mine.
I was like, yeah, that that language in itself builds
itself up to have that toxicity and allows them to
(35:16):
get away with these things. Yeah, um, yep. But pivoting, Uh.
There is a whole section on orgasms um, which she
defines as quote the sudden, involuntary release of sexual tension
uh and further quote, orgasms vary from woman to woman,
(35:37):
from context to context. They happen while you're making love,
and sometimes they don't. They happen while you're masturbating, and
sometimes they don't. They can happen from clatorial stimulation, vaginal stimulation,
thigh stimulation, anal stimulation, stimulation, earlobe stimulation, or a mental
stimulation with no physical contact at all or not during
any of these. They can happen while you're asleep, while
you're exercising, or while you're in a variety of other
(35:59):
completely on sexual situations. They can be delightful, humdrum, spiritual, annoying, ecstatic, fun,
or frustrating. Sometimes they're awesome, sometimes they're not. Sometimes you
want them, sometimes you don't. And by the way, she
has a whole uh section on different ways to have
different types of orgasm. Yes, yes she does, and I
really appreciated she put this in there because I do
(36:21):
think as a culture, we've built the orgasm into this
like end all, be all. If you don't have it,
something's wrong. But you know, it does vary depending on
the mood and context, and sometimes you know, they're fine,
sometimes they are amazing. You know. I've talked about some
more gasses on the show, and this actually made me
(36:43):
feel better about it because I was like, oh, look,
it turns out that could happen, and I'm not some
total outlier uh, you are better disciplined than the rest
of us. Apparently, I found a context that works for me.
But back to orgasms, in this context can also be
(37:04):
non concordant. Because we societally treated men's pleasure as a
default pleasure, we expect women to orgasm reliably from being
this vaginal intercourse, yeah, which can sometimes happen, but sometimes
don't and only do and SEV don't. And I think
that's kind of one of those things that have slowly
(37:26):
sleeped out to the world that people are starting to
realize it's okay and sometimes it just never happens. Um
of women who masturbated it with little to no vaginal stimulation,
focusing primarily on the clearers. I knew it, you knew it.
I knew it, you knew it. But yeah, I mean,
(37:46):
I think it's it's not just men, Like I grew
up thinking that too, Like that's yeah, I do. I
do also love. She deals into the same time orgasm.
She talks about how rare that isn't that's great if
you can and if you like it, wonderful, but it's
not a you know, necessary thing, and it's not common,
so it's okay, yeah, yeah, And I also like how
(38:09):
she talks about, like the pressure especially on women to
have an orgasm almost means you're not going to have one,
Like it's one of those things that's taking you out
of the moment of enjoying um so. And also just
to reiterate she said in that quote reliably, like it
doesn't mean you you never will during penis vaginanat intercourse,
(38:30):
just like that reliable part of it. And then that's
the only way, yes, it is not no no no.
She also goes into things like meta emotions or is yeah,
how you feel about your emotions being annoyed about being annoyed? Uh,
and Matt versus terrain, how we're told sex should be
and how it actually is, and how all of that
(38:51):
plays into our ideas of sex and if sex is
something that you're you're into, how how that sex can
play out and how you can change those things and
just be to be mindful of those things too, is
a big part of realizing, Uh, you're the messaging you've
received and how that impacts all of your life. But
(39:14):
also sex, what is being planted in your garden? What
is being planted in your garden? What do you want
to get rid of what do you want to keep? Um,
and I mean communication too is I mean we could
say that in every episode, but communication is key and
not feeling embarrassed about having these honest conversations and not
(39:34):
being embarrassed that you don't necessarily know like work and
doing that work and figuring out what you do like
and being able to communicate that. Yeah, it's very powerful stuff. Yes,
it had me feeling like I gotta share this with
everybody I know, And well that's her ends. She's like,
make sure it's just share. If you share just one person,
(39:56):
I've done my job. Just spread it amongst the people's. Yeah, well, uh,
you know, I guess we've done part of our job
and we are our listeners for that because I yeah,
great suggestion, and yeah, yeah, Honestly, this book it's just
a wealth of information. There's so so many things we
can unpack. It's so full of things I wish I
(40:18):
had known when I was much much younger, and we
really only touched on the surface. So definitely recommend it
if any of what we've said resonate with you or
you want to learn more about any of the things
we touched on, because we really didn't go in depth
with with much of this. So it's a lot, it
is and it's worth it. It's worth it um. But
(40:38):
in the meantime, we would love any other book recommendations
or recommendations at large, or just to hear from you.
How are you doing? Uh? You can email us at
Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You
can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast or
on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as
always to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks and thanks
to you for listening. Dephone Never Told You subsection of
(41:01):
iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio, visits iHeart
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