SMNTY Classics: How We Beat Polio But Not the Mythmaking Around Jonas Salk (Part 2)

In part two of the Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff episode Anney guested on with Margaret Killjoy, they continue to delve into vaccines and the legacy of Jonas Salk.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I hope my stuff.
I never told you production of iHeartRadio. So we are
back with part two of when I guested on the
show Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff with markat Kiljoy,

(00:27):
a friend of the show. Love having her on, and
this was my first time. As I mentioned in the
previous one, I kind of warmed up in the second part.
I think because I was nervous. We get nervous listeners,
We really do all the time. Yeah, if we work
with really cool people, it's hard sometimes. This two parter

(00:50):
was about vaccines, and I maintain that that is a
very important thing. There's a lot going on with them
right now that we should be talking, talking about and
paying attention to. So please enjoy this episode.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Cool Zone Media.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
Hello, and welcome to the show that you already know
the name of the title of because you clicked on it.
I'm your host, Marto Kiljoy, and I have a guest,
and my guest is Annie Reese.

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Hey.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Anny Reese, Yes, Hello, I'm so happy to be here,
happy to be back.

Speaker 3 (01:28):
Thanks on this day that's totally a different day than
the previous day. Definitely, Yeah, because this is live, people
don't know that because it's not true. But Annie Reese
is a podcaster and is the host of Saver, a
food podcast. Although now you know that it actually isn't
a different day. If it was two days from now,
I would have now listened to savor Ye because it

(01:49):
sounds really up my alley. But I didn't because actually
we only recorded part one about five minutes ago.

Speaker 1 (01:55):
So you're revealing how the sausage gets made. I know, terrible.

Speaker 3 (02:00):
It's really just giving them all the secrets. It's okay,
like the fact we have a secret producer who I've
never introduced before, never, Sophie Lichterman.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
Hehy are you Sophie. I'm all right.

Speaker 4 (02:14):
I lost my voice last week, so it's like slightly
scratchy still.

Speaker 3 (02:18):
Any particular reason or just for fun.

Speaker 4 (02:20):
I just was like, man, I don't need it anymore.
As fine, Yeah, you don't, like you don't work in audio,
so I was like, fuck it, I don't need that thing.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
You know.

Speaker 3 (02:30):
It's like now these days, you get a cold and
then your voice is like slightly different for several months. Yeah,
and I have a bunch of audio books I have
to record, and then I keep being like, oh, I'm
gonna put it off until my voice gets back to normal,
and then I'm like, I don't know what normal is anymore.

Speaker 1 (02:44):
And recording an audiobook, I've only done one, but it's
a whole thing. It's annoying, it is, and it's like,
why don't you just for five hours not mispronounce anything?

Speaker 3 (02:58):
Yeah, because every time you do, you have to click
on your computer and go back.

Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yeah. And then you're reading the stuff you've written, and
you're like, maybe I should have I wish I had
known I had to read this aloud.

Speaker 3 (03:12):
You know, but this is revealing more information about you
than I previously knew. Oh no, what was the book
that you read?

Speaker 1 (03:21):
Well? Stuff I've never told you has a book?

Speaker 3 (03:25):
And do you do the audiobook?

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes, we did so Samantha McVeigh, who has been a
guest on the show before. She is my wondrous co
host and a great friend of mine. We read it together,
but foolishly we didn't realize we were going to have
to do the audiobook, and so we were sitting there
next to each other just bewildered, like, oh gosh, I

(03:50):
would not have written this if I had known. But
she was a great support throughout the whole thing. So
shout out to having supporter friends who help you get
through something like reading an audiobook for five hours that
can be very intense. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (04:08):
I always do that alone in a closet, So like,
that's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah, the subject matter was a little deep, so I
was like, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, but check it out.
It's good.

Speaker 3 (04:21):
Well. Also, we have an audio engineer named Eva.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Hi Eva hi Eva hi Eva.

Speaker 3 (04:29):
And our theme music was written for us Beyond Woman,
and this is part two about well, it's gonna be
a lot of parts about the things that the government's
trying to take away from us. And this was going
to be a glorious episode about how purely amazing the
polio vaccine is. And then it got more interesting and
fun when I found out that the person who gets
called the destroyer of polio was not that, but was

(04:50):
interesting and strange. And so we are telling the story
of Jonas Salk, the man who was part of a
large project and then gets whatever you've already heard me
complain about this. So he has just started to do
some flu vaccine stuff. He's not actually the one who

(05:10):
you know, he's not in charge of this project, but
he's part of it, and students at the university start
getting vaccinated too, and so fewer of them were getting sick.
Soon after that, they started studying how to put multiple
strains of flu into the one vaccine. But there's a
problem with this, right, If you put a whole lot
of different flu into a vaccine, it starts being like, well,

(05:33):
that's a lot of stuff in one shot, right, And
people started experimenting with what are called adjuvants, which is
what you can add to boost a vaccine's immunological response
without upping the viral load. It's basically stuff that's like magnifying.
It feels like a video game to me, where you're like, oh,
if you have this thing, it like works really well
with this other thing, and it like boosts the thing, you.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
Know, Yeah, kind of like D and D. Yeah you
can get exactly.

Speaker 3 (05:59):
Yes. I would argue that anyone who's played D and
D who's anti vax didn't play D and D. I
cannot imagine being like, you want a plus one shield
and you're like, oh no, it doesn't make you completely
safe forever, So I don't want a plus one shield,
And you're like, who are you? Why are you playing
dungeons and dragons.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
I just feel like I need more of the science.
I need to do my own research, and I'm just
going to run into this battle without I don't need that.
I don't.

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:30):
You're like, all right, you went up a level. Do
you want all the new powers that come with the
upper level. I'm like, uh, that's like the way that
the man wanted the dungeon master told me to do that.
I don't. I don't trust that person.

Speaker 1 (06:40):
I don't trust that at all.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
All.

Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah. So, when you read about Sulk, you read about
how people loved him, but scientists hated him. And if
you read something a bit more of one of these
hagiographies as most writing about him, is the reason that
scientists hated him is they he bucked the trends. He
was a maverick who refused to play by the rules

(07:05):
or whatever. If you read more critical writing about him,
is that he was attention seeking, risk taking idea, taking
credit for ing, and kind of mercenary and reckless about
that mercenary part of it. He pissed off his colleagues
a lot while they're working on the flu shot because

(07:26):
he made a deal with a pharmaceutical company Park Davison
Company to give them exclusive vaccine information in exchange for
royalties for the sale of the vaccine. This pissed off Francis,
the person heading up the project, and they I don't
think they ever rekindle their friendship.

Speaker 1 (07:47):
The bridge burned, yeah sounds like yeah.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
I lose track of the number of bridges he burned.
It might be that they reconnected with this particular person later,
but I don't believe so. And it's presented as like
after that, he just wanted to be more independent in
his research, and I'm like, no, he probably got a
run out for being a capitalist dickbag. He's like, I
want to be more independent in my research. So he
moved to Pittsburgh and became the director of the Virus

(08:13):
Research Laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh's Medical School. This
is not a prestigious appointment. It is in a forty
by forty foot basement that is sometimes used as a
morgue when they need overflow morge space. Originally, he was
just going to work on the flu and measles and
the common cold, but he was recruited by an organization

(08:35):
called the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, which is this
massive nonprofit fundraising organization. This is basically the Like Polio Group.
It was founded by FDR, the most famous polio victim
in the world, and FDR put his weight behind it,
and they ran a fundraising campaign which is actually still

(08:56):
around called the March of Dimes. And this started when
a bunch of Hollywood stars asked people to mail a
dime to the White House, and that you know, the
inherent thought of this, I mean, it's mostly the thing
that the government should just do anyway, But the idea
is that this would help pay for the cost of
treatment for polio patients, which basically no one could afford.

(09:17):
It was incredibly expensive to take care of a polio patient,
and there's no health insurance really at this point, and
like it's hard to imagine a war system than we
currently have. But that's where they were this organization. I
think eighty million people donated to this, which is like,
I don't know what the population of the US it
was in nineteen thirty whatever. I assume it's about eighty

(09:40):
million people. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (09:43):
I also am stuck in my like modern brain where
I'm like the cost of mailing a dime.

Speaker 3 (09:50):
Oh yeah, totally like that. I guess the equivalent would
be like mailing a dollar now, which still kind of
barely works out.

Speaker 1 (10:00):
Yeh. But hey, it sounds like a lot of people
got into it. I know.

Speaker 3 (10:04):
Also, you're like not supposed to mail cash anymore. I
wonder when that changed.

Speaker 1 (10:07):
Oh that's interesting, okay.

Speaker 3 (10:11):
And so the president founded this organization, but the guy
who ran this organization, the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis,
very specifically didn't want the government to be the one
funding polio research because if the government funds medical research,
communism wins.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
No, we can't have that. Let all those kids die,
you know, you know, not communism though.

Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, And so it's about private fundraising, getting everyone
to donate. There's a word for getting everyone in the
country to donate to something. It's called taxes.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
Yep, yep.

Speaker 3 (10:58):
So sulk in the Pittsburgh research they're like, all right,
we're gonna fucking do this. We're gonna cure polio, or rather,
we're gonna stop polio. And there was a lot of
work involved in this, and not just like try stuff
out and see what works, but rather grunt labor of
typing a ton of different strains of polio. There's three strains,

(11:21):
and then within each strain there's just like a whole
bunch of types that are little sub guys. Only two
had been typed before, and it is long, slow, boring
work that kills an incredible number of monkeys and has
to be done incredibly attentively. So Sulk and his team
started killing those monkeys. That's not the way I want
to phrase it. They started doing that work. Crucially, they

(11:44):
are building on the work of a lot of people
before them, and the work that a lot of their
peers at other research institutions are still doing. The old
way of typing polio. The style at the time involved, Okay,
you get a lab monkey and you give it inoculations
of a known type and so then it has like

(12:05):
the one polio antibodies, right, And then you extract the
monkey's blood, you combine it with an unknown type of polio,
and then you inject it back into the brain of
an uninfected monkey. If the monkey doesn't get sick, then
the unknown type is similar to the type that the
inoculated monkey at antibioties against, right, Because you're like, ah, well,
it was protected against this, you know, right, folks, maybe Salk.

(12:32):
I'm honestly suspicious of the shit I read that talks
him up at this point and attributes various inventions to him.
He figured out that you could use mineral oil to
make a smaller amount of a virus cause a larger
antibody response. That thing I talked about earlier that I
forget the name of it, and it didn't write down
on my script the word I'd never heard before and
couldn't pronounce. By using mineral oil, Salk's team figured out

(12:55):
that they could reduce the number of monkeys who had
to die in order to isolate each type of polio. Previously,
each type took forty monkeys. Now they can do it
with only fifteen monkeys. That is a saving of twenty
five monkeys. And if you want to save well, I
guess it's not really time for an ad break, but
that would have been so good. Just imagine the ads

(13:19):
just do it early. Yeah, fuck it, here's the ads.
Save some monkeys. Save your own monkeys by spending other
monkeys lives on our goods and services. There you go,
no rules here, but not a lot. Here they go,

(13:39):
and we're back. So they're doing this work, and this
is like the grunt labor of making a vaccine, because
you just like have to isolate every single known type
of polio. A man named Julius Jungner was on Salk's
team and was responsible for a lot of the advancements
that Sulk essentially took credit for. Julius had worked on

(14:04):
the Manhattan Project, so he was familiar with his work
having a seemingly positive end to some people and a
great deal of complicated. And why I don't even see
as complicated. It as bad that we dropped nukes on
cities full of innocent people. But you know, whatever, I
can imagine during World War Two being like, we better
develop this before the Nazis do. I can see doing that, right,

(14:25):
you know. He worked on that, and then he moved
to the University of Pittsburgh and he developed a color
test to determine how much virus is in tissue, and
this made the whole thing go faster. He also figured
out how to grow the virus in large quantities, which
is more or less the thing that made the vaccine possible.

(14:47):
As best as I can understand, most of the rest
of what Sulk's team did was building on existing work
and then just doing the work. Like people were like, oh,
we got to a menapolio vaccine. These are the steps
that are necessary, right because people had already done the
how are we going to do this part? Except how
are we going to get a ton of poliovirus? So

(15:09):
Julius Jungner is the one who figures that out as
far as they can tell, and because you need a
ton of poliovirus if you want to inoculate the entire
country and or the entire world. He kept running up
against the scientific establishment like he would run up against
the Committee on Typing, who kept saying that like, no,
none of us want to change how we do things,
and you need to stop being different, is the way

(15:31):
it is often presented. Or they had legitimate reasons against
the stuff that these people were doing, but people don't
want to write about that because they want to write
about a hero. Salkin's team kind of just did it
anyway on the side, and to be fair, they were
probably right in this particular circumstance. They typed seventy four

(15:53):
strains of polio in a year in what was expected
to take three years, and they seem to do it right.
It wasn't like about shortcuts. It was about like finding
better systems by which to do it. And the committee
was like, all right, fine, you always all right, good enough.
Twenty thousand monkeys died to type polio and you're making

(16:18):
a face of the who seems.

Speaker 1 (16:24):
No, Oh my gosh, twenty thousand monkeys, it's terrible.

Speaker 2 (16:30):
Let me.

Speaker 1 (16:30):
I know, it's interesting hearing this story now because we've
had so many developments since then, for good and for bad,
and some of them have, you know, skewed us away
from animal testing, but not always. But also I find
this whole hero story of Sock really interesting because the

(16:55):
parallels of what we're seeing now of the anti vax
movement is very much. It feels in line with what
he was all about, right, which is like no science
establishment for me, I'm gonna do this. And so it's
strange to have.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
These He's a move fast and brain things guy.

Speaker 1 (17:16):
But he was doing it four vaccines, and now we
have it against vaccines.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
I know, as I'm writing this, I'm like, man, if
RFK didn't hate this guy, he'd probably love this guy exactly, Like, yeah,
it's a trip. So twenty thousand monkeys die, which is
less than it would have been without some developments that
they made. I don't know. I don't know to do
math like that. I try not to. And there were

(17:48):
and are three broad types of polio, types one, two,
and three, which is fairly easy to remember how many
there are. Type one is eighty percent of cases, and
then types two and three are about ten percent of
cases each. Type two is almost entirely benign, Type three
is the deadliest, and type one is the typical paralytic

(18:08):
one that we talked about. Fortunately for our researchers, there
just wasn't a ton of variants in polo like influenza,
so it was a very good candidate for vaccines. When
people started growing polio on purpose, they grew it in
the nervous systems of human fetuses, dead ones in the

(18:28):
nineteen thirties. By nineteen forty nine, some folks in Boston
managed to grow it onto other human tissue like skin
and muscle and kidney, and that got other people the
Nobel Prize in nineteen fifty four. People are like, how
come Salk never got a Nobel Prize? But this is
the only Nobel Prize for polio that happened is that

(18:50):
people figure how to grow it on different tissue, and
Sauk was like, all right, that's a good idea, and
so he grew it in monkey tissue, a mix of
ten's and kidneys. This might have been the part that
was Yugner's idea. That's my combining two different sources to
come of my own conjecture. Now they can bulk make polio,

(19:11):
and they understand the types of polio, and so it's
just time to start doing it. They pick the most
antibody producing strains of each type of polio and not coincidentally,
also the most dangerous, and then they use formaldehyde to
quote unquote kill the virus. More technically, this inactivates the virus.

(19:32):
Sulk was fantastically good at science communication. This is maybe
the one thing you can't really take away from him.
He was good at explaining ideas to a broad audience.
Which is funny though, because then I read a whole
bunch of excerpts of one of his later biophilosophy books,
and I'm like, no, this is incredibly badly written. Like
it is like comically badly written.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
You think people were just talking him up? Or was
it like a thing of the time.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
I think he was good on camera, and his biophilosophy
books are later he basically win, that's out right. He's
like high on his own supply, and he's like, I
can do whatever I want. I'm a biophilosopher now. And
people are like, what is that? And he's like, let
me tell you, and they're like, I wish I had
never asked. I'm so sorry. He spent more and more
time in the limelight, talking to newspapers and radio audiences
and bringing photographers into the lab, which is no longer

(20:19):
a forty by forty basement, it is several floors and
thousands of square feet. June nineteen fifty two was the
worst outbreak of polio and human history so far. I
would have just said in human history. But you know,
we have the future to look forward to now, and
Sulk has something of a vaccine in the works, so
they started limited testing. So he headed on out to

(20:43):
the DT Watson Home for Crippled Children to test the
vaccine on polio victims. This time parents were asked for consent.
I mean, I think he's just kids for consent, But
you know, at least progress is being made. Along consent lines.
The kids would not be helped in any way by this, because,
like if you test a vaccine on people who've never

(21:05):
gotten the disease, at least if it works, they are
now vaccinated, right, But these kids have already gotten polio.
It is a good way to test for antibodies and
side effects, and it's basically the kids like helping science
at some risk to themselves, but not great risk to themselves.

(21:25):
No one had adverse effects, and all of them got
more antibodies. So then he tested on crippled children without polio.
This is the way it was phrased at the time,
and this sounds awful, but it makes some sense. If
you test this on someone who's already not able to
use their limbs, if they accidentally get polio, they're less

(21:47):
likely to get worse than they already are. This could
still kill them, though all twenty seven in the second
trial were fine. Then they tested the kid's blood on
more than kidney cells and that worked too. Then he
worked on sixty three kids with mental disabilities, which the

(22:08):
justification that salkas is that they are already isolated from
society and illness, so they haven't been as exposed to illness,
so they're a blank slate and they have a lot
of health records. Not all of these kids have parents
who could consent, but don't worry. The state's Department of
Welfare provided that consent.

Speaker 1 (22:25):
Now I'm a little worried.

Speaker 3 (22:28):
Yeah, No, I'm worried to and to be fair and
or this is what the people who write really glowing
things about him say. He worried like hell as he
did this. He said of doing these trials. Quote, when
you inoculate children with a polio vaccine for the first time,
you don't sleep well for two or three weeks. And

(22:50):
like he probably said that, and he probably meant it.
Like everything I've read about him, he is aware of
the human impacts of what he's doing and sees it
as a greater good thing. But he's not callous about it,
you know. Yeah, he's maybe a little bit cavalier.

Speaker 1 (23:08):
He sounds like a I'm trying to wrap my mind around.
He feels like the science version of Oh, I want
to be remembered. I want to do this great thing totally.
I want to be known for this in the history books.

Speaker 3 (23:23):
He talks about that shit constantly.

Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah, he has that vibe, which can be very I
don't care how many monkeys have to die. I'm many
kids I have to experiment on. But at the same time,
it also sounds like it wasn't all about I just
want to be remembered. He actually did want to get
to this vaccine.

Speaker 4 (23:44):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (23:45):
I think at the end of the day, his goal
was to cure polio, not to become rich and famous, like.

Speaker 1 (23:51):
Which makes it all the more complicated.

Speaker 3 (23:53):
Yeah. Yeah, and like, this is what it took to
save so many millions of children's lives.

Speaker 2 (24:04):
You know.

Speaker 3 (24:04):
This doesn't mean that was the way that it should
have been done or had to have been done, but
it is the way that it was done. Right in
the children's hospitals, he had incredible bedside manner. He would
laugh at the kids, he would talk through their fears,
he would answer questions. And I think this does matter

(24:27):
because part of the evil dystopia of like doctor's non
consent whatever is the like they're just gonna ignore you.
You're just there, You're just meet you know, I said earlier,
this is the style of how it's done. At the time.
When he presented his findings in nineteen fifty three to
the committee, on immunization. They were like, you did fucking what?

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Hold up?

Speaker 3 (24:52):
Yeah, And then the whole thing leaked to the press,
and I wouldn't Maybe so someone does know and has
written about who leaked it to the press. I don't know.
I leaned towards this man leaking it towards the press.
I did not lean towards that when I wrote this script,
but I like, as I learned more, the whole thing
leaked to the press, that the polio vaccine was almost ready.

(25:15):
It didn't leak to the press like testing on children.
It was hey, we think we have a polio vaccine,
which is true. They did think they had a poliovaccine
because they did have a polio vaccine. So we talked
to the press and he was like, hey, I'm actually
just cautiously optimistic, and the press was like, hooray, we're saved.
And they called it the Salk vaccine, and he was like,

(25:36):
please don't call it that. But I don't know whether
he was actually like please don't call it that, or
if he was like, oh no, please don't call it
the Sulk vaccine. My middle name, by the way, is Edward.
You know, Like, I just don't write, and people are
mad at him in the scientific world, and Jonas E.
Salk is getting called Jonas E. Christ by the people
who are mad at him.

Speaker 1 (25:57):
Interesting.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
Some reports say he hated the public life, some say
he reveled in it. I don't fucking know.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Jonahs E. Christ.

Speaker 3 (26:10):
I know which is funny because actually when he was
a little kid and he kept talking about He's gonna
save everyone, people used to call him like something like
Jonas Christ or something like that, and it's like a
really funny nickname to give a Jewish kid too, you know.

Speaker 1 (26:21):
Right, yes, pretty good. And then he got the added
middle name that was given to you.

Speaker 3 (26:28):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:28):
At this point, totally wonderful father in law.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
So at this point the figure they might be ready
for broader trials. The public needs this vaccine, and there
are two groups that are opposed to this public trial.
One had a point, the people who support his direct competitor,
Albert Sabin, who was convinced that the dead virus vaccine
is dangerous. Saulk was using the most virulent type one strain,

(26:59):
so if any remain active formaldehyde didn't kill at all,
the patient would die, and formaldehyde inactivation was not particularly
well studied at this time, and there was no evidence
that the dead virus approach would lead to lasting immunity.
Sabin was pushing for a live virus oral vaccine, but

(27:20):
that comes later, and then you've got early anti vaxers.

Speaker 1 (27:25):
Woo.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
A celebrity entertainment journalist, a podcaster of his day was
this guy, Walter Winshell. Apparently he's one of the originators
of the news entertainment in radio and TV, and he
stirred up mass hysteria about how the vaccine was going
to kill all the school children. In response to this,
Sock was like, I just vaccinated myself and all my children,
which is true. And so in nineteen fifty four they

(27:53):
have the first big clinical trial. It is the largest
clinical trial in history up to that point in the US.
One point five million kids were in the test. Six
hundred thousand of them got the vaccine. It was a
series of three shots and the trial was a massive success.
And here's a chunk of like the thousands and thousands

(28:14):
of people left out of this story who did a
ton of work, is that coordinating this thing was a
public health undertaking on an incredible level because you were
tracking all of those one point five million people and
you're doing it like more or less before computers, Like
people did a lot of work.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
Yeah, and for three shots. Oh gosh.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
I think it's like one shot and then a month later,
and then there's one shot a week later and then
a month later.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:44):
I think the most accurate headline I saw about this
was from an obituary of Sulk that this isn't the
polio vaccine that eradicated polio, but it was the polio
vaccine that quote turned the tide against polio. Jonas Salk
gave this big speech in nineteen fifty five when they

(29:04):
announced the test results that it worked, the vaccine worked,
we were going to stop polio. He thanked a ton
of people. He did not think his team or anyone
on it.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
What are god interesting?

Speaker 3 (29:21):
Ah huh. They all left crying.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
Oh that's sad. He got up there and he was like,
you're welcome.

Speaker 3 (29:30):
It was all me, Yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (29:32):
And you keep waiting for your name, you know, or
some kind of recognition.

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Yeah, this person usually working side by side with who's
like kind of already taking credit for your work, and
you're like, ah, but now he's going to say my name.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
At least finally yeah, right, never.

Speaker 3 (29:45):
Comes Youngner, the guy who had actually invented a lot
of the important shit said about this moment quote. People
really held it against him that he had grand standard
like that and really done the most uncollegial thing thing
that you can imagine. Jonas Salk, for his part, never
apologized for this and only spoke with Younger again once

(30:09):
in their lives.

Speaker 1 (30:12):
Do we know how this meeting went?

Speaker 3 (30:15):
I don't. I wish I did. Younger like later was
like I mean, he would say all kinds of shit
about what had happened, but he would still also kind
of a team player where he didn't try and tear
down the vaccine and even Younger's coming out of this
looking good. Younger had even more damning stuff to say
about Salk, though, when you read about the incidents of

(30:35):
vaccines mishaps right, which are like things that fuel anti
vACC sentiment today. There was something called the Cutter incident.
There was a pharmaceutical company called Cutter. Because we live
in this weird country where everything has to be done
through all these private corporations, there's a bunch of different
companies doing the vaccines right, and so the Salk vaccine
is made by a lot of different places, and this

(30:56):
one pharmaceutical company, Cutter, wasn't in apt activating the virus. Effectively,
this killed eleven people because it caused I don't know
the numbers in front of me anymore, about a thousand
people to get polio. Younger had seen the problems at
the Cutter Laboratories factory and told Sulk about them, and

(31:18):
then Sulk, as far as Younger can tell, didn't do
anything about it, because that still happened. It's still like
went forward and people got the Cutter vaccine and people died.
And then in an interview, Sulk went on, I think
it was TV and he was like, you know, I
wouldn't pat in this vaccine because quote, how can you

(31:41):
pat in the sun? What a guy? Right? Well, sure,
it turns out he and his team had been looking
into patenting it, but their attorney told them they didn't
have a chance in hell of successfully pattenting it because
it was built on prior work, it was not a
new and.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Ee, don't you love it when someone's like, oh, I
never would have done that, yeah, and then you find
out later they definitely tried to do it.

Speaker 3 (32:10):
Yeah, totally this is like one of the main things
that is like held up as like this whenever there's
like a fucking meme level like Instagram post about Salk
and the polio vaccine or whatever it's like. And he
refused to patent it because how can you patent the sun?
You know, you're like, well, their attorney had just told him, quote,

(32:32):
if there were any patentable novelty to be found in
this phase, it would lie within an extremely narrow scope
and be of doubtful value.

Speaker 1 (32:40):
Doubtful value.

Speaker 3 (32:43):
One guy Da Henderson, who's another like public health virus
researcher guy. I almost fell down another rabbit hole about him,
and then I didn't. He has successfully fought smallpox, he
put it. Quote. Jonas came in at this point with
pretty much everything done except for moving on to wider
scale human trials. This vaccine helped a lot. It is

(33:04):
a good vaccine. It is what I got as a kid.
Probably it is probably what you, dear listener got as
a kid if you were raised in America. The rollout
was uneven at the time, According to an article in
the MIT Technology Review written by Angela Matsayak in two
thousand and five, quote By nineteen sixty, less than one

(33:28):
third of the population under forty years of age had
received the full course of three doses of the Salk
vaccine plus a booster. Most of those who had were
white and from middle and upper economic classes. The disease
raged on in urban areas among African Americans and Puerto Ricans,
and in certain rural locales among Native Americans and members

(33:51):
of isolated religious groups. Angela also says quote, While Salk's
vaccine did slow down the incidents of polio among middle
class Americans, its cost and its requirement of three injections
and a booster meant that for years the disease continued
to affect the poor and others lacking access to proper

(34:13):
medical care. It was only after Albert Sabin's oral vaccine,
which was cheap, effective, and easy to administer, was licensed
for production in nineteen sixty two, that polio could be
fully controlled in the United States. So there's another problem too, right,

(34:34):
They've just developed this new vaccine, not the new new one,
but the Assalk one. But America was so afraid of
communism that it couldn't be a public campaign of vaccination.
It had to come from the nonprofit, and that nonprofit,
the Anti Communist Org that sponsored the whole thing, had
a total of nine million shots available. That was not

(34:57):
nearly enough. Everyone needed at least three or four. But
what they did need was products and services, because that's
how you really defeat communism is products and or services,
of which there are none in countries that are not
the United States of America. Obviously famously, that's why we

(35:19):
don't need to do global trade anymore, and we all
can buy iPhones that were made in America.

Speaker 1 (35:26):
It's just clear.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
Yeah, I don't see any problem with any of this,
and if I did, i'd be a trader. And I'm anyway, whatever,
here's a bunch of ads, and we're back. If I
ever come back to this topic, it'll be to do
a deeper dive on Albert Sabin and the vaccine that

(35:49):
defeated polio worldwide. The thing I thought I was writing
about when I got biographies about fucking anyway. But this
was my eleventh hour surprise during my research. So Albert Sabin.
He was born Abram Sepperstein in nineteen eighteen in the
now Polish city of Beali, stock Well. It was always Polish,

(36:10):
but it was part of the Russian Empire, and when
he came to the States in nineteen thirty or so
with his parents, they anglicized his name. He became Albert Sabin.
He spent World War Two traveling all over the world
helping develop vaccines against the insect born diseases that soldiers
were getting. He basically like did all the stuff that

(36:32):
people claimed Salk did.

Speaker 1 (36:35):
Yeah, it's like Sock is the even though the inverse
in terms of the timeline, he's basically like the inspiration
for Socks, like the movie character you see. Yeah, he's
the one that was actually out there too.

Speaker 3 (36:49):
Yeah. And he wanted a live vaccine for polio, and
some of this was like he just sort of believed
in the axiom that dead vaccines don't solve viral problems
or whatever, right, But all public support for his vaccine
disappeared because the Salk vaccine dropped even though it didn't

(37:09):
eradicate polio, because it wasn't able to be rolled out enough.
So he started collaborating internationally because he couldn't get support
in the United States. Famously, anyone who listens to the
show knows that I'm not a big USSR person. The
mass testing for the vaccine that eradicated polio happened in

(37:30):
the USSR. Salk and Sobin were actually both invited to
the USSR, but Salk didn't go and Sabin did. So
one hundred million people in the USSR were part of
those trials from nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty one.
And it worked. So you have this oral vaccine and

(37:54):
it uses a live virus. Because it's a live virus,
it creates a stronger immune response and gives longer lasting protection.
You don't need needles to administer it. They put it
on a sugar cube. This is where the whole spoonful
of sugar makes the medicine go down. Thing apparently like
it was like a reference to this. Oh I don't
know I read that, but I'm like, I'm like, nah,

(38:16):
But apparently you don't need boosters. You just need a
sugar cube. And because it's live, it's contagious, but in
a good way. You get vaccinated. Like they give you
a fucking sugar cube, You eat it, and then you
go home to your town or village or whatever, and
you spread antibodies naturally, and everyone you spread it to

(38:41):
is now immune. Dapolio two. There is a downside to this.
There's a reason that we use the dead vaccine here
in the United States. A few people die every now
and then. I've read eight to ten people around the
world per year, but I've also read that it's not
every year, and it's fewer people than that. I don't know. Basically,

(39:02):
like this is getting an administered to millions of people
every year, and eight to ten or so of them die.
And the people who die they do so because occasionally,
incredibly rarely, the virus mutates and becomes active and you
have an outbreak, which is then solved by administering a vaccine.

(39:23):
The perfect solution to polio that the World Health Organization
suggests is that you use both. You use the Sabin
vaccine first, and it creates actual herd immunity. Herd Immunity
is not the word for let everyone get sick. It's
the word for get everyone antibodies. Use the Sabin vaccine
and eradicate wild polio. Then you switch over to the

(39:44):
Salk vaccine to keep it dead. It just costs more
money to do it this way. That's what happened in
the US is that they use Salk's vaccine for a
little while, but it didn't really do enough, and so
then people are like, how come the Commis get the
good American vaccine and we don't get the good American vaccine.
So then they started using the Sabin vaccine, and then

(40:08):
once wild polio was eradicated, they switched back over to
the Salk vaccine. When I was like, Sabin did all
the same stuff SoC did, but like kind of, Actually,
Sabin also tested the vaccine on himself and his family,
and he also didn't patent it. And there isn't as
much information about him not patenting it that I'm able

(40:29):
to find, but it seems as though he would have
made about seven billion dollars if he had patented this.
What instead he lived off of a teacher's salary for
his entire life.

Speaker 1 (40:43):
I want to be like, good for him, but I
also like, I hope, I hope that was purposeful. I
believe it was okay. Well, then good for him.

Speaker 3 (40:52):
He wrote quote, A lot of people insisted that I
should patent the vaccine, but I didn't want to do that.
It's my gift to all the world's children. And he
worked with Cuba in nineteen sixty two, as Castro's Cuba
was the first country to actually get They were like,
they were like, all right, we're gonna actually commit to
getting rid of polio, and I believe that they were

(41:14):
the first country to succeed. But while Sabin's vaccine defeated
polio around the world, America liked its doctor rock star,
and Sulk remained the darling of the press and the
political establishment. His wife divorced him for quote extreme cruelty.

Speaker 1 (41:34):
Oh whoa. I was going to ask you earlier if
you thought that they had any love for each other,
And now now.

Speaker 3 (41:42):
As best as I can tell, it sounds abusive. It
sounds emotionally abusive, even though he was the one who
had been like, come on, come on, don't you want
to get married. Come on, I don't have a middle name,
give me a middle name.

Speaker 1 (41:54):
You know.

Speaker 3 (41:55):
He was just constantly his work was his life, and
he like love being famous, and he was like, oh,
the pretty girls like me, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
The thing I read implies that both of them were
cheating on each other. But the thing I read implies
it in a way that's kind of like blaming her
and then being like, I guess he did it too,
and I'm like, man, I wonder who fucking did it more?
The fucking rock star anyway, whatever agreed, So he's like
ignoring her. He's like choosing where they live, constantly ignoring.
She's got three kids with them, and she's not having

(42:29):
it anymore. That's like the nicest version. They never really
talked about it, And so when she says extreme cruelty,
it probably means the sort of patterns of emotional abuse.
But I don't know, that's the nicest thing I can
picture there. You know, Donna, his now ex wife, stays
committed to leftist activism, but he's at this point, first

(42:54):
sort of a political and then increasingly into sort of
a mystical eugenics, although a weirdly maybe leftist mystical eugenics.
I don't know. I'll get into it in a second.
He remarries to a woman who also dated Pablo Picasso.
He wrote a bunch of books about this biophilosophy stuff
he did, where he's all about like, just like we
can understand viruses and bacteria, we can understand the humans.

(43:18):
I'm just like a very normal thing to think. And
he wrote a book called Survival of the wisest. Oh no,
if that name sounds sketchy, it's because the book is sketchy.
I've read excerpts, and I've read analysis, and I've also
it's really fun to read both the Goodreads reviews and
the archive dot org reviews, because there's a hick copy

(43:39):
of that on archive dot org, and it is more
or less calling for the genocide of the stupid. Like
one analysis I read was like, this is just a
book length thing where he's avoiding using that word, where
he continues to say, like, well, the wisest people should
develop a new morality as they inherit the earth. In it,

(43:59):
he writes, quote, if the quality of human life is
to improve, a process of selection, both natural and human
will have to choose the wisest for positions of influence
and power. Eventually, the struggling in the human domain will
be between the wise and the non wise. This implies

(44:21):
that those who lead others in ways that are anti
evolutionary or that are being counter to the natural process
of becoming the being and the and the being is
capitalized like the T, but then being is all capitalized.
I just want everyone to know that aalk out them, okay,
will either be replaced by others possessing wisdom akin to

(44:43):
that of nature, capital and in nature, et cetera, et cetera.
You see what I mean where I'm like, but this
man isn't a good writer. Like when people are like,
he's a really good science communicator, I'm like, well, he's
not a good philosophy communicator.

Speaker 1 (44:58):
No, very oversimplify. What I'm picking up here is this
was a very early version of you know, nerds will
inherit the earth Like. He wanted power. He wanted power,
and this was his way of being this scientist rock star.
I can be the powerful one. I'm wise, it seems,

(45:22):
don't particularly care if I have to run perhaps on
ethical tests on mentally disabled people.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (45:34):
But it's just very interesting to me because it feels
very loud in him being like, I'm the one with
the power, and totally that's what we should be placing
it on, is wisdom.

Speaker 3 (45:48):
Totally, Like, how is he defining wisdom in this context?

Speaker 1 (45:51):
Exactly? Because it is true, like you said, I'm all
about wisdom. Oh yeah, that's not bad. Yeah, but it
just feels very he's placing it in terms of he
wanted more power.

Speaker 3 (46:05):
Yeah, how they were going to do all this eugenic
shit once they had power, is that they would build
RNA viruses with which to reprogram humans in the embryo.

Speaker 1 (46:15):
No I know, no, no im media, no from me.

Speaker 3 (46:25):
It's all right, Well then never mind. I was gonna
pitch our new biophilosophy podcast on cool Zone Media, but
apparently that's a no, no, it's out. I liked a
review that was written on archive dot org about this.
There's a five star review quote a must read for
anyone interested in the thought process of a Malthusian psychopath.

(46:45):
It is troubling to think that this man invented inoculations
that were administered on a large scale.

Speaker 1 (46:53):
But it was five stars.

Speaker 3 (46:54):
Yeah, I mean like it's like half ironic, but it's
like yeah, no, it's like a it's a very useful
book with which to understand this particular genre of like okay,
and what's interesting again, I haven't read this book yet.
Most people talking about it are aware, they're like, this
is bad, right, But there's like some people who are
kind of like wellness influencer types who are like, oh,

(47:16):
this book is like so good. It help us understanding
overpopulation and you know how to be our best selves
and all of this stuff, you know, So I wouldn't
be surprised if this eventually crops up as like a
new thing the right gloms onto. But I think again,
I haven't read the whole thing yet. I haven't read
more than excerps yet. One of the things that he

(47:40):
wants to get rid of is diseases, both of the
like susceptibility to whatever things that are bad and eugenics
to try and cut out, but also diseases like prejudice
and like bigotry. And so he's like, oh, we're going
to eugenically get rid of racism. Is I think what

(48:02):
he's saying.

Speaker 1 (48:05):
Wow, again, that's a real that's a mind fuck, to
be honest with you, I know, that's just like the
opposite of eugenics. I don't know.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
I know, theoretically he'd be accidentally programming his own ideas
out of existence if he did this, right. The other
thing that people say about him, Okay, when people paint
the simple picture of Sulk, that is technically true, but
not is here is this man who dedicated his life
to trying to make the world better, defeated polio, and

(48:42):
then when he was well past retirement age, spent the
rest of his life up until his death trying to
make a vaccine for AIDS. And that is true. He
spent the end of his life trying to create a
vaccine for AIDS. Once again, he trusted it enough that
he inoculated himself in nineteen eighty seven. I'm not mad

(49:02):
at him for trying any of this stuff. Despite some
early promising animal test results, he never succeeded. His dead
virus approached. Didn't hurt anyone, but it didn't make anyone
better either. Albert Sabin died in nineteen ninety three. Jonas
Edward Salk died in nineteen ninety five. Yeah, we had
our first polio outbreak in the US since nineteen seventy
nine in the year twenty twenty two, and one of

(49:25):
rfk's advisors, this guy named Aaron Siri, tried to get
the FDA to napprove the polio vaccine. So good luck everyone.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
Yeah, it's really bad.

Speaker 4 (49:38):
I mean, the FDA chose a guy to lead like
the vaccine's division. Essentially at the FDA is this guy
named doctor vine Prosad and like friend of the pod
doctor Cavajda, And I we.

Speaker 3 (49:52):
Fucking hate this guy sucks.

Speaker 4 (49:54):
He spent all of the pandemic trying to get people
not to get vaccinated. He's like a scream into the
void YouTube guy like the guy that's in charge of
the vaccine's division, which is so crazy.

Speaker 1 (50:06):
It's so crazy.

Speaker 3 (50:08):
It's like this being monstrously bad at math. Like, take
the live polio vaccine. If it kills eight people every year,
that's like not what we want a vaccine to do. Yeah, right,
if you have a ninety percent chance of dying or
a nine percent chance of dying, you pick the nine
percent chance of dying because it's a lot better. Yes,

(50:32):
you are so much safer. I was trying to explain
this to like one of my friends who kind of
went off of terrible direction during COVID sure, who didn't
want to take the vaccine, like, well, we don't know
what it does, And I'm like, but we do know
what COVID does, right, So do you take the door
that one hundred percent has a monster behind it? Or

(50:53):
do you take the door that point zero one percent
has a monster behind it? That is really easy math.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
It sure is the other thing that I you know,
I've pointed out. It's like it would be like if
they appointed me to make like basketball decisions for the
Boston Celtics, who I hate with a fiery pack. It's like,
you can't assign a hater to be in charge of
the thing that they hate, Like that doesn't make sense.

(51:24):
Like this guy spent all of COVID and after it's
still just like shitting on vaccines, and they were like,
that's the guy.

Speaker 3 (51:34):
Yeah, that's what we need. More vaccine skepticism, more skepticism
of the thing that has successfully destroyed the scariest disease
to Americans in nineteen fifty four.

Speaker 4 (51:44):
We're currently working on a project that's going to come
out probably in May on it could happen here. That's
about what's going on with measles in Texas. Oh sure,
that'll be like an an entire week project that we're
working on with the local journalists out there that kind
of explains a little bit about like how we got
to the skepticism a little bit more h and I
think people should listen to that when we drop.

Speaker 3 (52:02):
It, it's gonna be really good. When I was doing
this research, there was a there's a moment in nineteen
seventy six, we're actually, both Sabin and Salk were both
talking with the President during a swine flu outbreak. That
thing that Annie Reese currently has survivor Oh okay, yeah,
is contagious for it forever, and everyone needs to make
any a pariah. No, none of that's true. None of

(52:23):
that's true.

Speaker 1 (52:24):
But if you could get people to follow that six
foot rule again, oh my gosh, yeah, that.

Speaker 3 (52:29):
Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

Speaker 1 (52:30):
It would be only for me though.

Speaker 4 (52:32):
Yeah, I know I would feel better that you had
that boundary because I missed that boundary every day.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
In nineteen seventy six, people thought there was gonna be
a really bad swine flu outbreak, and so they did
a lot of work trying to vaccinate, and like both
Sabin and Salk, I believe were part of this process
of trying to get everyone to get a flu vaccine
that year, and there was like a like one in
one hundred thousand incident of an increased potential of like

(53:00):
one particular thing or something, And then the swine flu
didn't really hit and so everyone was like, ah see,
it is bad, and people sometimes presented as the beginning
of the modern anti vax movement, But then I was
reading other stuff that was like, no, that actually isn't
where there's no continuity there. It all comes back to
that stupid fake autism study.

Speaker 1 (53:22):
Yeah, and I do think there's a lot of very
it feels distinctly American to me. But I just feel
like people got so pissed off that we were telling
them like, you can't leave, You've gotta wear a mask,
Like we were giving them all these rules. Yeah, and

(53:42):
instead of thinking of that herd immunity of like the
health for everyone, people were just angry that they couldn't
do what they wanted to do and then they were isolated.
They were going on these rabbit holes that were telling
them like it's all a lie, it's five g it just.

Speaker 4 (54:00):
Yeah, instead of just realizing that, like you know, I'm
telling you I miss some of the COVID air or something.
I'm like, yeah, I wish you would wear a mask
on an airplane. You're in a fucking airless metal tube.
A chewa chew a chew cough cough cop Come on,
I wish somebody would wear a mask. Six foot rule miss.

Speaker 3 (54:17):
You curb side pick up?

Speaker 1 (54:19):
Oh my god? Oh yeah, but.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
Really the six foot thing, I'm like people used to
like give you like I loved it, and now it's
like you're in my bubble.

Speaker 3 (54:31):
Well, I often have people stay about six feet away
from me. I know, in order to accomplish that, you
have to wear all black and be it like kind
of strange trans girl.

Speaker 4 (54:43):
Yeah, as people travel and stuff, it's like we're you're
often the only person on a plane wearing a mask,
which is so baffling to me.

Speaker 3 (54:50):
When I think about the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic, where
like the new technology of cover your mouth when you cough.
We look back and we're like, ha, ha, they didn't
know that we should have.

Speaker 4 (55:01):
Taken wearing a mask on a plane.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Wearing a mask when you go to.

Speaker 4 (55:08):
A hospital or to a doctor's office or somewhere where
you know that you're going.

Speaker 1 (55:14):
To be in a crowd space.

Speaker 4 (55:15):
What an idea?

Speaker 3 (55:16):
Yeah, and just as a social norm, there's no one
who's going to I don't know. Maybe actually some things
do need to be mandate. I'm not sure, but overall,
no one's going to arrest you for you just cough
into the air, right, but it sure is a faux
pas and it should be right, And like I don't know,
I don't have solutions here around how public health should
be run. I am not enough of an expert. I don't.

(55:37):
I genuinely don't think people should listen to podcasters around
public health. I think they should listen to people who
study it. But people should wear masks sometimes, and people
should sneeze into their crook of their elbow and learn
that hand sanitizer doesn't stop fecal oral transmission. And you know,
love that some stuff.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
I love how much you love that story.

Speaker 3 (55:58):
I know, Well it's gonny too, because it's the kind
of thing that doesn't really impact people who don't live
lives like I do. But if you go to like
like a forest defense camp, you have like everyone goes
in poops in a we call it a shitter, you know.
And in order to it's safely, it's a certain distance
away from the kitchen, you have to cover everything. You
have to dig a certain depth. You know. It's all
this work that people do. And people used to just

(56:18):
put some hand sanitizer there. Yeah, but thanks to the
work of people explaining how transmission works, that doesn't help. Yeah,
So instead you have to build this thing out of
five gallon buckets and a foot pump where you can
like pump soapy water, and you know, people have like
solved this problem, and it's one of these things where
it's like, this is a reasonably normal part of my life.
It is not a normal part of most people I know,

(56:40):
it's lives. An outhouse is not a part of like
most of my friends lives. But for many years lived
somewhere where an outhouse was the only toilet available, you know. Yeah, anyway,
any how you feel that about salk and seven and
polio in the future, you know, the future?

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Uh, you know, honestly, I feel like I say this
every time I come on a show like this. I
have a million thoughts and I want to talk about
all of them. Like you said, there's a lot of
paths we could have gone down, but currently it's just
it was interesting to hear how displayed out in the

(57:21):
past and to juxtapose it with how it's going yeah
right now in some frightening ways. But yeah, just the
kind of it sounds like there's always been this politicization
of vaccines and who gets the credit for them? Yeah,
and then are they actually any good for you?

Speaker 3 (57:42):
Yeah? All that stuff, and the answer is yes, vaccines
are great, one of the best technologies I've ever developed.
And also all the stuff that they're trying to strip
away from social services that are trying to take out
all the good parts of the government and leave all
the bad parts of the government. And what we need
to do is the opposite. Imagine that you should get

(58:03):
rid of the bad things and keep the good things.
They just got it all backwards. That's the problem.

Speaker 4 (58:09):
And you know, wash your hands, cuver your mouth on
your cough and maybe just like thinking, am.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
I too close to that person?

Speaker 3 (58:15):
Maybe I am? Yeah, And don't talk to cops. Don't
fucking talk to cops anyway. Well, anywhere can people follow you?

Speaker 1 (58:26):
People can find me on podcast stuff when Never told
You and the podcast Savor wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 3 (58:33):
And that is Savor without a you. Yeah, not that
people would assume there's a U and Savor unless they're
from Turf Island. But anyway, Hi everyone and bye.

Speaker 2 (58:46):
Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of
cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,
visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Podcast yes, and that brings us to the end of
this two parter on vaccines with cool people who did
cool stuff with Margaret Kiljoy. Shout out to Sophie who's
on there, who facilitated, and Ian the producer who helped
out planning this whole thing. It was a great experience.

(59:22):
We'd love them and go check out that show. If
you have not already, if you would like to contact us,
you can. You can email us at Hello at Stuffwenever
Told You dot com. You can find us on Blue
Sky at mom Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok
at Stuff One Never Told You. We're also on YouTube,
but we have some new merchandise at Common Bureau and

(59:42):
we have a book you can get wherever you get
your books. Thanks as always to our superduicial cascine or
executive Prusumya and our contributor Joey. Thank you. Thanks to
you for listening Stuff Will Never Told You. Expection by
Heart Radio for more podcasts or my heart Radio. You
can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
if you listen to your favorite shows