SMNTY Classics: Spill Your Salary Secrets

In this classic episode, Anney and Samantha spotlight the new podcast She Makes Money Moves. Salary talk with coworkers is becoming the new "do" in digital workplaces. recruitHER founders Gina Helfrich and Ashley Doyal share their insights on savvy negotiation, the power of salary transparency and how women and tech companies can jointly hack the wage gap.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steffon.
Ever told your prediction of I heart Radios how staff works?
I did it again. I was just like, kind of
on my in my own world, was like, oh wait,
I'm suposed to say something cool. Cool. He's looking at socks.

(00:24):
Everybody she's looking at socks. Are nice. They are nice.
And today, as you record, this is your birthday. It
is my birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you give me some sacks,
some and some money, right, come on now, yes, kind
of related to keep my money. Were you good with money?
I'm not good with money. I've gotten better as i've

(00:45):
gotten older, for sure. And then also, um, as we
talked about, I don't know sure many people will experience
I'll live pay paycheck to paycheck and so because I
didn't make honestly enough to live in Atlanta. So and
I'm sure a lot of people experience that, which is
why people millennials have been living with their parents because
it's hard. But yeah, no, I'm not really great with it.
But as I've gotten older, I've gotten a little more

(01:07):
since in understanding the fallout of debt and all of that.
So getting better not great? What about you improving. Um,
I would say, I'm pretty good. Yeah. I when I
was a kid, I mean, starting like four or five,
every birthday, every holiday, I just saved money. I had
a little little bank you did. Save that Eastern money

(01:30):
for a very long save my Eastern money, that Christmas money,
my birthday money. Um. I was chosen to do that.
Do you did your school, your elementary school have that
little bank where students could like invest. No, I was
the bank, the owner. Um. And I was really good
at the strategies for saving money in fourth grade, very important.

(01:53):
And I think everyone knows I had my empire of
c D mixing. Right, you're a little um underground, underground
business in high school. So I left with a lot
um a couple of thousand dollars from high school saved.
And then here in Georgia we were talking about this yesterday.
I chose the school I did, the college I did

(02:16):
because of something called the Hope Scholarship, which essentially, if
you keep a certain g p a um, the state,
funded by a lottery money, pays for your tuition and
some book some for some books. I'm a lot older
than you, and they provided a little more for me
than I think they do, and then the requirements for
a little less intense. Um, because I was at the

(02:37):
beginning of the program, essentially not quite beginning towards the
beginning to take myself a battle. Um. But yeah, I
did the same thing because I couldn't go to college
without doing that. Honestly, Yeah, yeah, me too. And it
was really nice. It was really I feel really fortunate
now because I have so many friends struggling with student
debt and I left unscathed. Right. Um. And I from

(03:02):
the television show which is having quite a moment right now, friends,
I learned No. No, I mean, like, why is that
picking back up? So I don't keep going? It's Netflix,
and I don't know. But um, there's a line in
it from like the season two or three, very early on,
where Monica's dad says, what are you ten percent of
your paycheck? Where does it go? And she says, kind

(03:24):
of feebly, in the bank. But I thought that was
like a thing. It's so ten percent of my paycheck
for as long as I wouldn't pay Yeah, that's ridiculously smart.
And I still know I just set it up automatically. Um,
So I think I'm pretty good. And also I know
Bridget and I when we did an episode on Page Transparency,
we were talking about how this weirdness we have about

(03:45):
discussing money and salary UM, I would stay in general
United States everybody, but also kind of particularly women. UM.
And I've never had that, And I feel really fortunate
because my group of friends we were all about it,
like how much are you making? Should be making more?
Wor right? How you do it right? I think I'm
the same way because it doesn't make sense to UM

(04:05):
and yeah, I need a baseline, right, Okay, so I
need someone to tell me, am I being screwed over?
Am I doing this right? Right? The value of having
someone who would just be open with you, UM, you
can't underestimate it. And it's been something that has helped
me and it's helps me negotiate and get hopefully the

(04:28):
most of what I can UM and just learning from
other women in my life and having that thing of
like go back and negotiate your salary and all the
right uh. And that's something that Samantha and I have
been talking about a lot lately with some of our
other coworkers and friends. So this has been on our
mind and it is also on the mind of Samantha Barry,

(04:48):
who is editor in chief of Glamour Money Matters, who
is starting her own podcast called She Makes Money Moves UM,
which we want to highlights. We think that some of
your listeners would really appreciate it, and also if you're
someone who has struggled with having these open conversations with money. UM,

(05:09):
that's something that she looks into how much we make,
how much we spend, how we're investing, and how it
can impact so many other aspects of our lives. And
we've all seen that we've had we've been that friend,
or we've had that friend who can't do stuff right
because they don't have the funds right and like I said,
just living paycheck to paycheck and then it's not necessarily

(05:30):
because I'm really bad with it, but because it all
goes to bills very quickly. So yeah, yeah, And in
this podcast, UM, Samantha Barry another Samantha, She shares her
her own experiences and her own journey and gives advice
from experts, and the hope being that women who listened
to it can can learn from that and build on that.

(05:53):
And UM, that's something that we're very big onto right
as well as the fact that we know that women
make less than men, and so how do you balance
that skill a little bit? Yeah, and hopefully I mean
if we share, if we more and more share. Wait wait,
you're making how much? Then we can push We can
push the scale slowly, but surely you can do this.

(06:13):
We can do this. So if that's something you're interested in,
go check out the podcast. The new podcast She Makes
Money Moves wherever you hear your podcast. And in the meantime,
we hope you enjoyed this classic episode about salaries and
secrets Salaries. Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from

(06:36):
how stupp Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Kristin and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking to
two super brad ladies, Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, who
we met face to face at south By Southwest Interactive

(06:57):
and it was kids mitt Oh my god, it was amazing,
saying so, here's the backstory. Really briefly, Gina emailed us,
and uh, thank god she did. I'm so excited to
talk to them and I was so excited to talk
to them at south By Southwest. But the thing is
when Kristen and I were at south By, like, there's
so much going on, you're running to a million places.

(07:18):
We hosted our own live show and panel. There was
just a lot of stuff going on, and Gina was
kind enough, conscientious enough and efficient and type a enough
to email me again to make sure that we got
together and I'm so happy she did. Yeah. And since
we haven't even mentioned what this Gina Ashley Dynamic duo

(07:42):
do UM. They have started a woman owned full service
recruiting firm called recruit Her, which is committed to connecting
tech companies with diverse talent. And in our conversation, we're
going to get into all of the reasons why this
service is very necessary and important not only for company's

(08:04):
bottom lines, but also for the technology and services that
trickled down to end users like you and me. Yeah,
And in talking with them for this interview and when
we met them a little while back in person, it
was so fascinating and inspiring to hear they're sort of
boots on the ground perspective about diversity in tech, both

(08:27):
diversity of gender and diversity of ethnicity. They're really passionate
about improving the diversity of teams in tech because honestly,
diverse teams outperform those who just look like one group,
And beyond the inspiration of their mission, it's also just

(08:49):
inspiring to hear their own story of how they found
each other and what brought them to building this startup
which is taken off in a really short amount of time.
And so what we're going to talk about with Gina
and Ashley today includes, yes, why diversity is important and

(09:11):
go beyond the buzzwordy, almost tokenism aspects of diversity, right
but also too, we're going to drill down into some
really personal issues when it comes to women and our
jobs and our paychecks and transitioning into better jobs where

(09:31):
we're treated better. And also this issue of salary transparency
which is blowing up right now among tech companies. Yeah,
I mean speaking of buzzwordy pay transparency is a huge
issue right now. People in all sorts of industries are
talking about it, and for the most part, largely it

(09:51):
is how did as a positive step towards eliminating the
gender wage gap, toward making sure that people no mat
or their gender, race, background, whatever, are paid equitably for
the jobs that they're doing. And it's also free advertising
in a way. I mean, it's not entirely free, because
you have to pay probably some people more in their

(10:14):
day to day jobs, but it's free advertising for recruiting
and then also retaining solid talent um. And you're now
seeing more and more companies like Amazon and Salesforce and
most recently Facebook analyzing gender wage gaps within the company

(10:35):
and rectifying that. And so it's exciting to know that
this is something that um, these leading tech companies are
taking really seriously. And this is a conversation that is
spreading because Caroline, I think it's really time for us
to stop feeling so secretive about our salaries. Yeah, exactly,

(10:57):
And and that is something that both Ashle and Gina
are passionate about, and it's something that the conversation is
only going to get louder as companies of all stripes
diversify more and more, as more people of different backgrounds
are brought into companies, salary discrepancies are going to be
an issue, and pay transparency is a huge way to

(11:21):
combat that. And it's also an important step in normalizing
this thing that we've been conditioned to consider impolite of
talking about what you make, finding out how much your
coworkers make and comparing notes a little bit, because the
fact of the matter is, when it comes to especially
women and even more so women of color, our we

(11:43):
will never know how much we aren't being paid if
we don't know how much people around us are making.
So should we talk now to Gina and Ashley? Yes,
let's do it. So, Gina and Ashley, before we get
into the nitty gritty about salary and money talk and

(12:05):
all that fun and sometimes not so fun stuff, can
you tell our audience a little bit about what both
of you do and also how recruit Her came to
be and how it works. Yeah. Um, this is Gina.
I co founded recruit Her with Ashley last August so

(12:25):
UM late summer. I had, prior to that UM worked
in a startup in the tech industry here in Austin,
and before that I was directing the Women's Center at
Harvard so UM. I was looking for something new to
do professionally, as kind of in a career transition, and

(12:49):
I felt like, you know, what I really want to
do is to combine these passions of fine and to
draw on my background in gender and women's studies and
of our scene inclusion in work UM from within higher
ed and bring that expertise to the tech industry, which
is having a lot of challenges and great opportunities around

(13:10):
UM diversity and inclusion issues. So I was looking at
that mostly from a consulting perspective, and I had lots
and lots of people asked me if I was also
going to provide candidates for companies that I would consult for,
and I was like, well, I don't know anything about that,
so I should probably find someone who does. And that
was how I met Actually, yeah, it was really great timing.

(13:34):
I feel like I'm really lucky that I saw Gina's
post when I did, so UM. We're both based here
in Austin. This is actually Doyle by the way, so
I'm obviously the other co founder of recruiter UM. We're
both based here in Austin. We didn't know each other,
but there's this really wonderful Facebook group called Austin Digital Jobs.

(13:54):
It has like, you know, close to twenty people in
it now, and Gina was one of those people who posted, Hey,
I'd like to talk to a recruiter about UM, like
how you consider getting more diverse applicants into the pool
if you have thirty minutes or something to talk with me,
and I was the only person who answer. So um,

(14:17):
that's how we've met and really hit it off on
that first call. Although maybe we can talk later about
how awkward it was around the topic of salary negotiations. Yes, um,
fighting for your mar your worth um. In any case,
my background before launching recruiter was primarily in technical recruitment

(14:41):
UM in larger corporations. So I've been working in tech
for about eight years doing technical recruiting and sourcing and
have also been an a JARM manager for those same companies.
And so um, really the bulk of my work has
always been focused around recruiting, retention, compensation and benefits. And yeah,

(15:04):
we launched recruit Her in August of last year and
uh here we are now built this thing. It's very exciting. Yeah.
So UM, what we can tell you about what recruit
Heter does is where a diversity recruitment firm or focused
on the tech industry. What that means is we provide
a more diverse set of candidates to our client companies

(15:28):
for their open roles then they're typically going to get
if they work with a traditional recruiting agency. UM. We
also are committed to only working for client companies who
we believe are providing an inclusive environment for our candidates.
So we pre screen all of the companies that we
ultimately decide to recruit for to see what life is like.

(15:49):
Do they have a salary transparency at their company? Um,
and make sure it's a place that we feel comfortable
sending someone where they can grow and thrive. UM and
make sure that they don't just have an experience where
they get spent right back out. So we're really hyper
conscious about the ecosystem of issues that are contributing to
the current lack of diversity in tech and trying to

(16:09):
make sure that we conduct our business in a way
that is long term going to continue to help fix
the problem. Well, I mean, that's an amazing effort and
an amazing goal. But what do you say to those
people out there who just claim that efforts like this
around diversity are just tokenism and we don't really need
to do this. We're just hiring the best people for

(16:30):
the job, whoever that is. Uh Man, you know, we
would be super duper rich at this point if we
got a dollar every time someone said that legitimate to
us on the phone. So I hear it right, Like
I get the eyebrow raise. Uh. And the skepticism, especially

(16:51):
this year, which it's like pro con right, finally, finally, uh,
wage in equity, diversity in tech or the lack thereof
is a part of the national conversation. And that's something
that we are super excited about because it's not a
new problem, certainly. Um, it's just finally one that like

(17:13):
you know, you can talk to someone at Starbucks about
because people now know this is a thing that happens
and that lots of people are working to try to
figure out how to address. UM. The con to that
is like sometimes you get the eye roll right, like
great diversity taught me something I don't know, Like, I
just hire the best person for the job. I don't
care what you look like. I just want to see

(17:34):
your resume. Unfortunately, that sort of sentiment doesn't work in
the actual real world. UM. And we know because of
you know, years and years and years of research and
practical experience, that we're not able to look at a
resume or sit in an interview room with a candidate

(17:56):
and make completely unbiased judgments about that person. That's just
not the way our brains work, so UM, we believe
there are tons and tons of strategies that you can
employ as an employer, as a person who's interviewing another
person for your company. UM, even if you are just
the first person reviewing resumes for um, you know new

(18:17):
applicants rolling in, there are lots of ways that you
can sort of mitigate that bias that naturally exists for
all of us as humans and make sure that you're
hiring processes are set up to really truly hire the
best person for the job. And frankly, if you only
rely on the same like hiring practices you've always used
forever and you have a homogeneous team already, you cannot

(18:40):
expect that the applicant pool you're driving in without trying
is going to change. Like if your existing team as
homogeneous and you rely on employee referrals to get new
candidates coming in and you don't ever like actively engage
with communities outside of the ones you're part of, you're
pretty much always going to be hiring the same people
and thinking that those are the best people for the

(19:01):
job because you haven't looked beyond your you know, you're
the limited bubble, which is sometimes a really nice bubble,
but there's a lot of talent outside of that, outside
of that realm. So one thing I've also been noticing
in terms of diversity issues within tech is a we've
started talking beyond just gender gaps but also looking at

(19:23):
um ethnicity, to which I think is a really great
step forward. But on the flip side of that too,
I think that we are or I don't know, maybe
I'm just in my own Twitter bubble, but we're seeing
not only identification of the problem, but also why diversity
is a solution in text I was wondering if you
could just kind of quickly talk about why this is

(19:45):
a benefit for the bottom line. Yeah. Absolutely. Um, Well,
there are lots and lots of research out there making
effectively the business case for diversity. Um. But there's a
couple of examples that we talk about a lot. So UM.
If you'll remember when Apple rolled out one of their

(20:05):
more recent iOS updates that included the Apple Health app. Um,
that app was native on your phone. If you had
an Apple phone, you had the app, and you could
use this to track your sleep, um, how much you
weigh your sodium intake, any medicines that you might have.

(20:26):
You could track pretty much any little detail that you
could dream up having to do with your body and biology.
But you couldn't track your period, which is something that
women you would know like, oh great a health app,
like I would love to use this. What's the most
fundamental thing I might want to track here? Right? And
it was not even a capability. So having a diverse

(20:48):
team developing your products in tech is really important simply
for connecting with your customer base. Right. That's fifty of
their customer base that they just completely let down through
that feature. Um. So since then they have made the
update you can now track your period and Apple Health um.
And there's lots of other apps that also came out

(21:11):
to help women, you know, keep track of their fertility
as well. So it's a huge market. UM. I think
the notion that there are heterogeneous customers and markets out
there that you can't tap unless you have a team
that reflects those experiences and perspectives is really strong, right,
relates to the bottom line. UM. There's a new company

(21:32):
out there right now called Bevil that is just crushing it. Um.
They have basically like shaving products for curly haired men
that don't tear up their face when they're actually shaving
because it's designed for that particular hair type and they're
in target. Now they're making so much money, and it's

(21:53):
just because nobody actually decided to pay attention to the
particular needs of this market before. So real, you know, diversity,
having a diverse team. I think plenty of us out
there just think it's the right thing to do. Right,
We're really uncomfortable with a very homogeneous looking tech industry,
given how tech is increasingly, you know, creeping into every

(22:15):
aspect of our lives, and soon every industry will be
the tech industry. Um. Also, it's relevant for where people
want to work. Diverse teams tend to have longer retention
of employees. People are happier working on diverse teams really,
And then the bottom line, right, like, when you have
teams that reflect your customer base, you're better able to

(22:37):
connect with their needs. You're better able to build products
that can really serve many many people's once in needs.
So so once we have that diversity piece in place,
then there's the question of you know, salary equity. Because
there was recently research that came out and I don't

(22:59):
remember exact source, but it found that in traditionally male
dominated fields, like say a tech company, When women come
into those jobs and uh it transitions from being male
dominated to more female dominated, the overall income drops, the
overall compensation drops. So yeah, this was a New York

(23:24):
Times article. Yeah, so let's talk about that, and how
how do you you know, kind of like make that bridge,
like get people in the door, but also maintain pay equity.
We will say obviously, for us, we think salite transparency
is a critical way to make sure that doesn't happen, right,

(23:45):
Because that way, no matter what the circumstances are around
the demographic makeup of your team, how large your team is,
how your team changes over time, if you have committed
to having more transparency around the way you compensate your
employees and how that compensation changes over time, you can
make sure that that doesn't happen. Right. Um, there's this

(24:09):
resistance for sure, I think from employers to dig into
this stuff. Well, we know, for example that Google and
Apple used to have this kind of secret you know,
non compete where they wouldn't poach one another's employees, and
partly that was to keep costs down. Right, So, in
a sense, there can be an antagonistic relationship between companies

(24:30):
and their employees because companies know the premium, particularly on
tech talent, which is our field, and so if those
employees learn their actual worth, companies are gonna have to
pay more. Well, I guess how does that apply? Do
you think in a more general sense beyond just Google
not wanting to have an adversarial relationship, how do you

(24:51):
think that applies more to the gender aspect, especially when
it comes to whether it's like official policy in the
company or just unofficial etiquette about not speaking about your salary. Sure,
I think some of this plays into the idea that, uh,
you know, when are supposed to be polite, right, We're

(25:12):
taught early on that you don't you don't want to
enter into conversations that are going to make other people uncomfortable.
You know, there's the whole like don't talk about religion
or politics at the dinner table. Salary is part of that, right,
It's sort of ingrained in us that this is not
something that you should be talking about with your peers
or with your co workers. And frankly, you see lots

(25:34):
of examples of companies going so far as to say
you cannot talk about it um whether or not that's legal.
It's a whole different ball game. Frankly, in most cases,
that's not something they can enforce, and it's certainly not
something that they're supposed to tell you. But if you
pull a thousand people about what their onboarding experience was

(25:54):
like in a new job, a good portion of those
will tell you that hr you know, reinfor worse with
them at some point not to share details about their
offer or not to talk about salary with their peers. Definitely,
that is the overwhelming sentiment right when you talk to
people about conversation. It's not something that like we're sharing

(26:15):
over the over a coffee together, or that we're like
hanging out at the park with our kids and talking
about how much we made last week. It's just not
a conversation that's comfortable for a lot of people, and
unfortunately for underrepresented groups UM women included, we really suffer
more because we don't have access to that data and

(26:35):
because we are not comfortable talking about it as a
as a whole. Um. Part of why I do this
work at Recruiter, and frankly, part of why my initial
meeting with Gina was really awkward is that this happened
to me, and you know, I'm someone who who comes
from an HR and recruiting background. You would think, of

(26:58):
all women, you know, doing this kind of work, that
I would have better access to the information, that I
would know a lot about my market worth, and that
I would never find myself in a situation where I
was vastly underpaid. But that's totally what happened to me.
And it was such a such a strange experience, and
it made me so angry that it really pushed me

(27:20):
to start talking about this more with my peers, with
women I knew, with my family um and I found
that over time, no matter how many times I have
this conversation with other women, that the overwhelming response is
the same. People are just really resistant to talk about salary.
They feel like they're going to be punished if they do.
They feel like it's rude, the conversations uncomfortable, and so

(27:43):
we sort of avoid it. And I think that's a
big part of why often we go for a five
or ten or twenty years vastly underpaid, because there's not
a single centralized location to just see the comp of
your peers right in most cases, unless you're working for
the government or a really awesome company that has salary transparency,

(28:04):
and more and more of those are doing that. Um
Buffer is a great example. You can go to the
Buffer website right now and look at their salary calculator
and plug in what kind of job you want to
do and where you live, and they can give you
an estimate on what you would make their All of
their employees salaries are publicly available. Um At Recruiter remade

(28:24):
that commitment that when we started to hire employees that
we would be transparent about our salaries and about their salaries.
And that's part of the deal. If you join us,
you have to be comfortable with other people knowing how
much you make. UM so part of you know, diversity
and tech being uh you know, a national conversation is
great because within this movement you've also seen this really

(28:46):
great leadership by moment of color and tech who have
pushed toward greater salary transparency. Probably the most common or
the most well known example is from a couple of
years ago when Erica Baker, who was at Google, uh
you know, started pushing on this, realized there wasn't a
lot of information about the salaries of her peers and

(29:08):
started a spreadsheet that was being passed around people were
anonymously entering their compensation. Google got wind of this, obviously
they were very piste UM and ultimately she left people
is now at slack right UM and UH, which is
a company we really love and I feel like it's

(29:28):
doing a lot of great work around UM some of
these issues. But in any case, Uh, it was a
very public punishment, right, Like you got to kind of
watch that play out. But thankfully she was brave enough
to start that conversation and start sharing that document because
it really helped reinforce UH, this conversation around salary gaps,

(29:52):
why certain people were paid more or less than their peers.
It pushed other people to start similar salary trains. UM
My little baby one that's been passed around for a
couple of months is specifically around HR and recruiting data.
I've been trying so hard to get more anonymous information

(30:13):
on the way recruiters and HR managers are paid and
people opts professionals, because again, you would think that someone
embedded in this work, like you know, creating compensation and plans,
having access to salary information about all the employees and
a company would know more about their own camp. But
even you know, within our very insular part of tech um,

(30:34):
there's still that, uh, that idea that you shouldn't be
talking about this stuff, right like that somehow this is
bad that you're asking, or you should just be happy
you have a job, or just trust us that we're
going to treat you fairly. We've seen frankly that that
does not work. It's not a great method to protect yourself.
And you know, it's really sort of a sad irony

(30:57):
that women in particular end up sharing information about their
salary with the people that it's least helpful to share
it with, which is going to be a recruiter or
a hiring manager, prior to receiving a job offer. So
that actually, because of the gender wage gap, ends up
harming women because it sets in the mind of the

(31:19):
potential employer a ballpark for what they're going to pay you.
But if you've been historically underpaid, then you're not going
to be receiving a salary that you're actually worth because
you've revealed what that past pay history was before saying well,
what do you think that I'm worth doing this job?
So it's so frustrating and sad to me, because we

(31:40):
really you know, deserve it and owe to one another
to share what our salaries are and to advocate with
one another around these issues. But instead we seem to
only be saying it to the people who actually don't
have our best interest in mind. I was just going
to say to you know, often HR managers, corporate recruit ers,

(32:00):
most big companies will already have policies in place around
how much you know, based on percentage of a person's
current salary they can boost for this new offer. Right.
So again, if you share this information about your current
comp with a company that you'd really like to work for,
and you've been historically underpaid, whether you know it or

(32:22):
you don't know it, you're already setting yourself up to
stay underpaid if their rule is that they only, do
you know, a ten percent increased from your current camp
for this offer. And I see all the time corporate HR,
corporate recruiting professionals, you know, coming back to candidates with
this answer like, Hey, you know, we're not trying to

(32:43):
treat you unfairly, but these are the rules. I would
just strongly reject that. It's one of the things that
we teach candidates and coach candidates on often like how
to have these conversations without being seen as difficult, or
you know, like hiding information. But really, this is a
place where you have so much power in the process.

(33:06):
Um giving up those numbers just really set you back again.
Even if you don't know if you're underpaid or how
undervaud you might be. If you have an ankling, you
just pass that power right across the table as soon
as you tell them what you're making right now. They
do not need that information in order to make you
a competitive offer. So you're suggesting that the power that

(33:28):
you're referring to is your current compensation and that you
should not disclose that to a potential employee employer. Yes,
I would say absolutely not. If you can, in any
capacity avoid giving that information over, you will be in
a much better position to negotiate, and frankly, it's probably

(33:48):
the easiest way to keep yourself from continuing to be
underpaid if you are already you know part of that
wage gap. I mean, if you look at Ashley's experience,
within one job move, she more than doubled her salary.
So if she had revealed how much that she was
making prior, it would be a much harder pill for

(34:10):
that new employer to swallow that they were going to
more than double her prior salary, right man, But I
mean speaking of hard pills to swallow, you know, we
you've already mentioned how it's almost culturally ingrained in women
to be polite, be that model employee, not rock the boat,
not make waves. I mean, my palm started sweating when

(34:31):
you were like, don't give up that information, because I
know what it feels like to be sitting in front
of that online job application and seeing that curse or
blinking in the little field where you're supposed to enter
your current salary. And so what advice do you You know,
I don't want to steal your your trade secrets that
you guys do recruit her. But but what is some

(34:53):
maybe advice or perspective that you can offer our listeners
when it comes to circumventing not only that other potentially
damaging aspects of the job interview or job application process.
I think it all comes down to how you frame
the conversation, right, Like, how you go into these often
very uncomfortable for us conversations around camp um. We can

(35:16):
talk about like literally how do you move the cursor
past the what's your current comp blank if it forces
you to enter a number. But first, I would say
the best thing that you can do for yourself if
you are starting to interview is to make sure that
you are prepared before you ever get on the phone
with a recruiter UM, with information about what market rates

(35:36):
look like for the position you're interviewing for UM. Do
as much research as you can around current camp, for
your peers, for what folks make another industries if you're
transitioning from one to another. UM. We're really lucky that
the Internet exists UM fifty years ago, this would be
very difficult to do UM. But again thanks to people

(35:58):
like Erica Baker UM and many who have come after
her sort of doing the same push. There are lots
of resources floating around where we're all sharing this information
right and trying to get more visibility not just for
ourselves but for our industries as a whole, around like
what market rate really looks like. There's also quite a
few services that have popped up in the last couple

(36:19):
of years. Comparatively is UM. I think the newest one
they just got something like six million dollars and BC
funding UM and they're essentially building out this huge database,
not onlike a glass door. UM, to look specifically at compensation,
what if the full package might look like for someone

(36:39):
if they're going into interview, they're asking for anonymous feedback
on this stuff so that their sample sizes will grow. UM.
Pay scale is another one. Again, you can look at
companies who have already publicly shared salary information to get
a feel for what people are making near you. Also
having conversations with recruiters UM about conversation in general. A

(37:02):
lot of times, even if you're not super interested in the
the particular role, you should take those intro calls when
they want to talk to you about them and just
get competitive intelligence on you know, what companies are looking for,
what the salary ranges for a particular role. Being armed
with that stuff before you go into the conversation with
a recruiter about a position you really want, it's going

(37:22):
to help you so much to be able to give,
you know, data based totally logical, like numbers oriented reasons
why you want to be paid a specific amount of
money or within a specific range for this work that
you're going to be providing to them. UM, it's so
much easier to go and armed with that, there is

(37:45):
great information available about what works, particularly for women, in
terms of how to approach a negotiation, especially a salary negotiation,
in a way that's going to help avoid or minimize
backlash for negotiating in the first place. Right, as a society,
we are just much more comfortable with men advocating on

(38:07):
their own behalf than we are with women doing the same.
Women are excellent negotiators. They can do a wonderful job
as long as they're advocating for someone else most of
the time, right, and partly this is because, you know,
seriotypically we view women as collaborative and caretaking, and so
it makes sense for us when we think about a
woman trying to advocate for someone else, negotiating as someone

(38:29):
else's behalf, But when it's negotiating on her own behalf,
then that's kind of off putting to us. So, um,
there's a researcher out of Harvard, her name is Hannah
Riley Bowles who's done a lot of great work on this.
She talks about taking a relational approach to the conversation. So,
just like Ashley was saying, come in very prepared, know
your numbers, make sure you know you know what the

(38:52):
salary range is for the job in the specific area.
If you're trying to negotiate a salary in San Francisco,
those numbers are going to look really different than they
would if you're trying to get a job in Austin
for the same type of role. Um and talk in
terms of we right already position yourselves as though you're
on the same side of the table with a person

(39:13):
that you're negotiating with, so you can essentially say, you know, I,
you know, can't wait to come on and provide this
particular set of skills and capabilities for your team. You know,
we're gonna do really well together. I you know, I
expect to basically put myself you know, hard to work
for your company, and at this rate, which I understand

(39:35):
to be, you know, the going rate, I'm going to
be really happy coming on and we're going to get
started on the right foot, et cetera. I wish you
had been in the room with me, both of you
and I had my first job offer because I didn't negotiate,
and I know I'm still paying for it, and uh,
it's hard not to kick myself anytime I think about it.

(39:57):
I'm right there with you. I spent so many or
is killing it frankly, like, I'm not shy. I'm really
good at my job. But I was killing it and
I was the lowest paid person doing that particular type
of work and for a company that I loved, which
is a wonderful, wonderful company with lots of great people
in it UM, And I just I didn't know. I

(40:20):
wasn't armed with that information, so I had no idea.
And then once I found out, you know, it's just
like it guts you. It's really difficult to continue to
kill it um knowing that you're being compensated at a
rate you know less than half of your peers, who
may or may not be killing it themselves. So actually
has told me this story a number of times, and

(40:40):
I think it's great to highlight that one of her
male co workers came to her to share with her
the fact that she was grossly underpaid. So this is
such a great area for ally ship, right, Like when
we talk about the importance of sharing with one another,
it's not just women sharing with other women, but frankly,
are male coworkers and friends can talk to us about

(41:01):
what they are making and that makes a huge difference.
Well do you think that so called radical transparency of wages,
of benefits of skills, the skills that you bring to
the table, will that help disrupt any toxic office culture?
Will it help in the gender wage gap as so
many people are hoping. I think it certainly has the

(41:24):
potential to. I mean, look at Salesforce, right, Um, they're
an excellent example. Someone at some point the last couple
of years came to them and said, hey, we think
you have some issues with salary on your team, and
you know their topic. Sex said, no, absolutely not. We
We're a wonderful company. We care deeply for our employees.

(41:47):
We're doing all this great work for them. We have
all these great people who stay like there's no way.
And then they looked at the numbers anyway, and were
horrified that, yes, in fact, there was huge disparity when
they looked across their salary just and their existing employees camp.
And then they, you know, put three and a half
million dollars into fixing it. And then they publicly talked

(42:07):
about how, you know, how frustrating that process was to
believe so strongly that you were doing the right thing.
And then of course you were taking care of your folks.
And then when you dig into the numbers to find that,
you know, in many cases they weren't. Um. Now they're
a great example because a they looked at the numbers,
be they did something about it. And see I think

(42:30):
most importantly they talked about it, right, because that's that's
part of the deal. If we don't talk about this stuff,
if we can't get more transparency around the data that
will allow us to make better decisions, it's never going
to go away. And look, it's the same thing with
the diversity and tech deal. If Tracy had never started
collecting data around how many people worked in tech, how

(42:53):
many women were on the team at pinterest, UM, there
would never have been that like lightful moment right about,
oh god, this is worse than we thought. And then
that pushed other companies to share, and it's continuing to
push the conversation. UM. So yes, I think absolutely having
more salary transparency and there being a pressure for more
companies to dig into this stuff has the capacity to

(43:16):
really truly change the experience of people working in tech
and other industries. So in the spirit of transparency, I'm
going to share a little bit of a related issue

(43:40):
that I have personally with this, and I've never known
what to do about it. Um So, like I said,
I never negotiated when I came onto my my first
professional job, and I feel like I have been having
to make up for that. But the last time I
had to negotiate for my salary, I walked in knowing

(44:02):
for a fact that I was paid less than my
male coworkers doing arguably identical work. And when I brought
that up to the HR manager who I was negotiating with,
and said, listen, I know that I need an extra

(44:23):
bump because you've got to even this out. And she said,
I don't know how you know that information, but it
is not applicable to this conversation, and became very hostile
in her tone toward me, as if knowing me knowing
that and bringing it up was something that I shouldn't have.

(44:44):
And I know I'm still not being paid equally. I
know I make less for a fact, I know I
make less than my male co workers who are at
the exact same level, who have the exact same title.
So what is someone in my position who's not at
a salesforce who doesn't have like a company initiative for
sales for salary transparency. What do all of the women

(45:06):
listening to this in my position do? Christen? That is heartbringing.
I'm so sorry you're dealing with that, and um, it's
so frustrating, and I know that plenty of other people
have been in your same position. Um, I think it
helps to just sort of help. It helps to remind

(45:27):
and teach people that while there are amazing folks who
work in HR and who want to help the people
on their team and advocate for them as much as possible,
there are also just at the end of the day,
things that they cannot help you with or their hands
are tied because ultimately h R works for the company,

(45:49):
right Like h R Yes, often is wonderful and wants
to help you, but at the end of the day,
their role is to protect the business. So there is
there are going to be situations, UM, like that's really
unfortunate one that you find yourself in where you go
to the person who you've been told is supposed to
help you in this situation and they're kind of telling you,

(46:12):
I don't want to be hearing this, you know, like,
this isn't something that we want to address well. And
the funny thing was, at the end of the whole process,
because we did go back and forth on some things,
she emailed me with like the final terms and all
of that and noted, you know, you are a tough negotiator,

(46:34):
and I, oh, wow, I just didn't know what what
to think about it, And honestly, I've kind of just
put it in the back of my head ever since,
because you know, what does someone in this position do? Now?
Do you walk into your boss's office and say, hey,
I want I want to know you know how much

(46:56):
more you owe me, like, because you know that's not
probably not to work. Yeah, And this is so tricky,
I think to like really speaks to how difficult these
problems are once they surface, like deciding how you're going
to move forward. Again, I had very similar experience to you.
I was working for a company I loved and then

(47:17):
you know, got pulled aside to find out that I
was not just underpaid, but like really really really underpaid,
like more than half um and then to have to
decide how to move forward. I think in my case, um,
I recognized my privilege and that I could take some
time start interviewing at other places. Like now that I

(47:41):
was armed with this information on my real market worth, right,
I get start digging in with other people and get
that validated. I could do more research. And you know,
everyone knows that when you change jobs, when you're able
to negotiate for a new salary at a new company,
usually that's your best bet to get the most money.

(48:01):
You're generally going to get way more money when you're
negotiating for an offer at a new company. Then you
will be able to internally at your at your company.
And some of that is based on what we talked
about before, Like a lot of corporations will already have
rules in place around what percentage of your current comp
they can increase um in some cases. Unfortunately, also there

(48:22):
are compensation buckets, so like let's say your manager has
five direct reports, they may only have X amount of
dollars to divvy up between those five direct reports and
a given quarter or a given year. And so even
if you're doing phenomenally and your thirty dollars underpaid, your
manager may feel obligated to still split that bucket in

(48:44):
a way that is not fair to you, but they
believe it's fair to those five people, right, so UM,
there are all these intricacies that you have to take
into consideration when you look at what possibly could happen
if you push back again, right, if you go back
past the HR conversation that was already so scary and

(49:06):
terrible to have, UM, and really demand that you're paid
market rate and like escalate this issue because you could
totally be punished even though you shouldn't be. And the
law says that your employer cannot punish you for you
know that there cannot be retaliation, that you can't lose

(49:26):
your job because you push back about salary. We all
know that that's not realistic in many cases, right UM.
And frankly, not everyone can afford to go against the
man UM, file an e o C complaint or get
an employment attorney to file a lawsuit for you about
your wrongful termination UM, and then wait however many months

(49:49):
or years it takes to get some sort of resolution
on that, right. Some people don't have the luxury to
sit out for that many months or years UM. And
so it really comes down to like what your risk tolerances, UM,
What what is best for you right now? UM? When

(50:11):
you look at your budget, when you look at the
amount of time you have to maybe be out of
the job of this thing goes self. UM, and it sucks.
It's totally not fair to you, um that you even
have to consider these factors. But you know, the truth
for many women, many people in general in this country,
is that they live paycheck to paycheck, or they have

(50:32):
family members that they care for who are dependent on
their income, and if they have conversations or do things
that might jeopardize the stability of that income, um, there's
some really real consequences they have to consider. We don't
all have a luxury of being able to storm in
and say, like, this is super terrible, what you're doing
is not right. I've already asked, you know, in the

(50:53):
way that I you know, I've already asked politely if
that's what you do, and frankly, you're still screwed me.
Like that's the conversation we want to have. But many
of us are just not in a position to be
able to do that, and so unfortunately, think in a
lot of these cases, getting that information that you're now
armed with, building it up right, supporting it with even

(51:16):
more documentation and information about your market worth, and starting
to research employers who have more inclusive practices and you
are gonna be a better fit for you over time
and really value you and support you and pay you
what you're worth. That might be your happy ending. But
I know that that's not the simple answer for everyone. Yeah.

(51:38):
I mean, the you know, sort of time tested way
that many people approach this problem is they just go
out and get another offer, right, and then bring it
to their current employer and say, hey, I have this
really appealing offer at this over the company. Can you
match it? Uh? And, like we talked about before, for
women who negotiate, we always have to keep in mind

(52:00):
that there is this backlash about women negotiating on their
own behalf. So if you take this approach and you
do go out and interview elsewhere and get a really
great competitive offer, but you like your job and you
would rather stay, then when you go present that to
your current boss, you have to present it in a
way that's basically like, Look, I was contacted by this

(52:23):
other company. I felt like I owed it to myself
to just you know, have the conversation with them. They
have made me this very competitive offer, but I love
being here. This is where I want to stay, you know,
I love the contribution and making on this team. I
don't want to have to go there, but given you
know the market rates, this is a very difficult offer

(52:44):
for me to turn down. Is there any way that
you could need it so that I could stick around
here and you know, continue making contributions here. This is
where I want to be if you can just match
the salary offer, So that might be another way to
kind of get around it if like, hey, just pay
us fairly isn't really getting you where you want to be?

(53:05):
Do you think getting dinged for have and of course
getting dinged is like massively understanding the issue, But do
you mean getting dinged for having those negotiation conversations, like
having the kind of conversation that Kristen did? Uh? Do
you think the penalties are higher if you're a woman
of color? Can you imagine if if I'm a black

(53:27):
woman going in there, like I walk right into that
angry black woman's stereotypes? So absolutely right, you have to
deal with many more of those challenges when you have
multiple aspects of your identity that are marginalized. So I
do think it's really fascinating how a lot of this

(53:47):
so called radical transparency is taking off in Silicon Valley
and with digital companies that at the same time have
so many public issues with gender and diversity. So why
do you think that this is really where a lot
of this conversation is stemming from, Like why the tech industry.

(54:13):
I think the tech industry really prides itself on being
innovative and forward thinking, so there are much more comfortable
with and likely to try new things. And I think
that's one of the aspects that makes working on this
problem within this industry so exciting and gives me the

(54:35):
hopeful things because there's a lot to be depressed and
frustrated about every day. UM. But you know, you look
at Etsy or Netflix or any of these large and
more successful tech companies coming out and announcing fantastic benefits.
For example, Netflix will give you out to a year
of paid leave for parent parents right of any gender. UM.

(54:57):
That's fantastic in a country that is alone with Popua
New Guinea and not offering paid maternity leave. That's huge, right.
So those kind of UM offerings where the tech industry
is trying to push the edge, which is something that
basically everyone prides themselves on UM is really great for

(55:18):
us and at the same time within particular companies. You know,
it really start depends on the culture and what the
real message and commitment is from the top. Some of
those companies are just kind of trying to check the
box off, right, Like this isn't a problem they really
want to spend a lot of time on, but they
feel the pressure that they need to address it, so
they'll say, oh, yeah, you know, let's implement the Rooney

(55:40):
rule and make sure that we at least interview a
minority for every open role. Um check that box. You know,
we'll do some of these initiatives, but there's not a
core commitment to the addressing the problem, whereas at other
companies and in tech in particular, you know, our clients
were really proud of have a deep commitment to these

(56:01):
issues and are trying to do comprehensive reforms and initiatives
to make sure that they are creating a truly equitable
and inclusive place to work. And in both cases, the
policies are great, but the overall outcome is going to
be different depending on the specific company. So to circle
back to the prontal leave issue. For example, if it's

(56:23):
all great and wonderful, if you have you know, unlimited
vacation or up to your parntal leave. But what's the
kind of unspoken messaging, right, Like, is there a common
knowledge of the company that if you're a dad and
you take your full ten weeks of paid leaves, that
that's career suicide even though it's on the books, that's

(56:44):
the policy, right, So it it definitely always has kind
of a drill down like what's really going on in
the particular company where you are, regardless of what the
written policy might be. And I really like that, you know,
are all the flak that the millennials get, you know,
we're doing some really great stuff. I mean, I feel

(57:05):
like we are leading the charge in terms of revolutionizing
the workplace culture, and this is one example of it. Sadly,
it is a story that we hear over and over
and over and over and over again. So it's personal
and it's terrifying for you to talk about it, but
it's really powerful that you're doing that because it allows
other people to realize they're not the only ones having

(57:26):
that experience and that it is not normal. Well, and
part of why I don't usually talk about it is
because it's also embarrassing. Yeah, hey man, I feel like, again, I,
of all people, I should have known. How did I
live like that many years underpaid when I'm supposed to
be the expert at that in my field? Uh, it

(57:47):
is embarrassing. It sucks. It's like financial literacy. I should
have known all that stuff. But sometimes it takes someone
pulling you aside and you know, giving me the tip
before you figure it all out. And I think that's
a big aspect of this conversation. And that's going on
because Kristen, you say it's embarrassing, but it's almost a trap.
I see General Akbar in my head yelling it's a
trap because on the one hand, we are supposed to

(58:11):
be responsible for negotiating in a way that nabs us
the most money. But on the other hand, we're not
empowered in a lot of ways to either know what
the industry standard is or to even think to research
what the industry standard is. And then certainly with if
you're dealing with a hostile HR person or a hostile manager,

(58:33):
you're certainly not empowered to be able to ask for
more money or even ask about what coworkers are being
paid on average, and so like, Yes, well, I totally
agree that it is embarrassing to realize, like, oh, I've
contributed to being underpaid. It's such a trap. Well, and
hostility aside, it's all of the unconscious biases that you

(58:58):
as a woman, a woman of color, like whatever your
layers of identity are. Um as you two were talking
about at the beginning of our conversation, where it's impossible
for us to have a completely objective negotiation process. And
I do realize, of course that it's Admiral Akbar, my apologies,
you're gonna get some mad Star Wars fan only feedback.

(59:23):
I know, I was just gonna say yeah, And you know,
on these topics, I mean, I will say I have
a lot of mixed feelings about the Sheryl Sandberg leen
in ethos um And definitely it is empowering for women
to go out and get this information and learn specific

(59:46):
strategies for how to negotiate on their own. Behalf. Reading
that book Why Women Don't Act Or Women Don't Ask
is really great, um, you know, like it's a really
good book. It's very informative. It helped me in my
personal negotiations. And then at the same time, in our work,
Ashley and I are constantly trying to also come at

(01:00:06):
it from the company angle and encouraging companies to not
contribute to a situation where constantly individual employees are basically
just out there trying to battle it on their own
for getting paid what they're worth. This is why we
advocate having this salary transparency as a company policy. UM,

(01:00:26):
you know, we can help one another as employees by
starting these conversations and talking to each other about what
we make and you know, giving each other hand up
to a greater path to wealth and to being paid
what we're worth. So I, on the one hand, yes,
you know, like there's so much that you can do
on your own as an individual, UM, learn more about

(01:00:47):
ways to approach these issues. And on the other hand,
it's going to take a big group effort. It's going
to take us supporting one another. It's going to take
companies evolving their culture and practices to be more equitable
and fair. Well, I think that's the perfect note to
end on. Gina and Ashley, thank you so much for

(01:01:10):
talking to us. Also, even before that, Gina, thank you
for messaging Caroline and me before south By Southwest listeners.
That's all how this went down, um, And can you
let our listeners know how they can find out more
about you and what recruit her is all about and
what you all are doing. Sure, you can visit our
website at recruit her dot io and that has all

(01:01:34):
the information about how you can connect with us. We
have an email newsletter you can sign up for if
you're looking for a job or you just want to
know what's out there. You can register and give us
your resume and we'll see if we have something that
matches you with one of the tech companies that's our clients.
We also offer career coaching through our amazing Executive and
Career coach area hunter UM and the variety of options

(01:01:57):
of packages available for that, so look us up on mine.
You can also find us on Twitter and Facebook and
LinkedIn what's your Twitter handle? While there's recruit her for
the business Twitter and then I am Gina helfer Rick,
no spaces, just all one word UM and Ashley's Ashley
Underscore Doyle d O y A L. Well. Thank you

(01:02:23):
so much to Gina Helfric and Ashley Doyle, the founders
of recruit Her for talking to Caroline and me not
only on the podcast but also at south By Southwest.
It has been so great to build this relationship in
such a quick time, UM, with these women who have
so many insights on these issues. I feel like Caroline,

(01:02:43):
we hear a lot about in terms of women you
need to negotiate more and know you're worth But they're
really offering these sharper tools for actually making those kinds
of things happen. Maybe we should start our own Google
doc for all sminty listeners and you can just go

(01:03:04):
in and put your job title, like your salary and
your hourly wage, and we can all look and see
what other what do other feminist podcasters make? What what
do other writers and waitresses and actresses make well? And
we'd also have to make sure that we get some
dudes to PLoP their salaries in there so that we

(01:03:25):
can really compare and see how much we're really making
or not. UM. But I'm sure that listeners have so
many thoughts about our conversation with Gina and Ashley UM.
So first, if you want to learn more about them,
you can head over to their website again, it's recruit
her dot io UM. And you can also listeners send

(01:03:47):
us your letters about all of this. Have you encountered
any of these issues in your workplace. Have you ever
done the thing of asking your coworkers how much they make?
How did you do that? How did your boss respond? Yes,
I'm asking for tips. Mom Stuff at house Stuffworks dot
com is our email address. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook, and we've

(01:04:10):
got a couple of messages to share with you right now. Okay,
I have a letter here from Christine Salinger, and I
would not normally read off a listener's full name in
the listener mail segment, but we actually mentioned and cited
Christine in our episode on disability and sexuality. So here's

(01:04:34):
what Christine had to say. A friend recently told me
that you quoted me in a podcast. I wanted to
go back and check it out. Thanks for doing that.
It's really great and you managed to cover a lot
in that quick hour. A couple of things I wanted
to hit on. Number one, the word suffered. You described
me as someone who suffered a spinal cord injury, and
this is a word I generally try to avoid. Instead,

(01:04:56):
I used the phrase I sustained my spinal cord in jury.
The reason for this is that suffering carries a lot
of negative connotations, the image of a person who you
should pity, and it's really just not true for me.
As with many other people with disabilities. As you sort
of hit on in your podcast, disability is still seen
as being bad or lesser, So there's an assumption that

(01:05:19):
having a disability makes you suffer. But for many of us,
that isn't true. We each live with our disabilities. They
are a part of us, in a part of our normal.
Number two actors. Near the end of your podcast, you
talk about seeing more people with disabilities in media, and
though that's great, I find it to be such a
shame that they are most often portrayed by people who

(01:05:40):
don't actually have that disability. It may be understandable when
talking about a movie or TV show where the character
is depicted both with and without their disabilities, such as
the Theory of Everything, but I don't believe it's right
or okay for films like Avatar or television shows likely
to use actors that don't have that disability. Just as
we don't see actors in black face anymore, we shouldn't

(01:06:01):
be seeing actors pretending to have disabilities. I'd also love
to see disability in media normalized so that we see
even extras as people with disabilities and not always a
central character who's fighting against their disability in some way. Anyway,
thanks again so much. I really believe that the more
people know, the more accepting society will become. And thank
you so much, Christine. We appreciate your letting. And I've

(01:06:24):
got to let her hear from Meredith about the same
podcast episode, and she writes, I was so excited to
see a podcast addressing sexuality and disability. As being an
occupational therapist, this is something I addressed frequently with my patients. However,
I was disappointed that there wasn't a single mention of
occupational therapy and the services they offer to help people

(01:06:45):
learn and manage your sexuality after an injury. We were
instead clustered in a therapy services that do not address
this In rehab, occupational therapy is a frequently misunderstood part
of the treatment team. We address daily functions and occupations
like activities of daily living of people of any age,
ability and diagnosis, and this can be getting dressed, driving,

(01:07:07):
money management, and even sex. I've attached to link below
to our national organization addressing the role of occupational therapy
in sexuality and just thought you should know so Listeners
That addresses over at A O T A dot org
if you want to learn more about occupational therapy and Meredith,
thank you so much for shining a light on that

(01:07:29):
important work that you do and now, listeners, we want
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(01:07:54):
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