November 26, 2023 • 34 mins
In this episode of On Theme, Katie and Yves talk about how Art inspires. But what happens when the lives we see on the screen leave us feeling disappointed with our own lives? In this episode, Katie and Yves talk with Dr. Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy for Black Girls about what to do when our expectations don’t match our reality.
Follow Dr. Joy on social media @hellodrjoy
Buy Dr. Joy's book "Sisterhood Heals"
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and all the stuff
I'll never told your production for iHeartRadio, and today we
have a treat for you, a very special treat. So,
as you know, our good friend Eves has started a
(00:29):
new podcast that you've heard Eve's on here doing various
Female First also some other episodes. You also heard her
and her co host over on their podcast on Theme
Katie come on and talk about the importance of black storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And we really love.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Talking to them, we love working with them. They sent
us a card. We gushed about it in the most
recent Female First. I saw it today and I was
once again overwhelmed by like oh, and so we really
wanted to highlight that if you haven't gone to listen
to the show yet, if you haven't subscribed, we wanted
to give you a taste of it.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Because it is really really good.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
They've done such a good job and they have so
many topics that just fit naturally into what we talk about.
They're just a if you're interested in this show, you'd
be interested in this.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes, and then you also need to be subscribed for
when they actually come out with my excited act, Like
I'm already excited for the Cinderella Brandy Cinderella episode, which
I have been begging them to do and they promised
that they would.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
It was honestly, it was a heartfelt campaign and you succeeded.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm pretty sure. I can't wait. I'm excited about it too.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
We could do like a group event, we could replay
the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Let's do this. Yes, I think we can. I think
we can.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So you might hear a few because we had a
hard time picking what episode we wanted to run in
our feed from on Theme because there's also one about horror,
and you know we're all about horror. But today we
are going to play an episode called TV fomo irl
in which Katie and Eves talk with doctor Joy Harden
(02:18):
Bradford of Therapy for Black Girls. And it's just a
great fit for the show, and we hope that you
enjoy it. Please go subscribe And yeah, we'll hopefully get
to talk more about this later with Eves and Katie,
but yes, in the meantime, please enjoy.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
You are.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Today's episode TV Fomo i RL. You ever be watching
a show and see the characters experiencing something that you
never experienced and be like.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I ain't never had that ever happened to me.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm trying to get see what that be like, right.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Dam Look, yeah, they do live in their best lives
and I'm just over here watching them from my average life.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
But I mean, you don't have to just sit and watch.
You could could what you know, use those characters as
a blueprint and do what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you're saying I should mimic a TV show in.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
My real life, I mean when you say it like that,
so how would you say it? Like you never seen
something on TV or a movie or read something in
a book and thought, I want that to happen to me.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, for sure I have. Who hasn't exactly our inspires.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
It's so hard not to compare our lives to the
storylines we see on the screen and on the page.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
But unlike television and movies, real life doesn't give us
second takes or feed us lines. There are no copy
editors are fact checkers, and our day to day lives.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
In this week's episode, we'll look back at the times
we compared our lives to fictional storylines, and we're in
for a rude Awakening.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
We'll explore the potential negative impacts of life attempting to
imitate art with doctor Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy for
Black Girls.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
I'm Katie, the author of the forthcoming anthology about black
bookstores in the United States, Prose to the People.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
And I'm Eves, a writer, a yoga teacher and student,
and a person who loves to be outdoors.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
We talk a lot about how stories have impacted us.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Yes, we have an entire podcast dedicated to black storytelling indeed.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
Facts, And I've been thinking about the way storytelling can
negatively impact us, like not in a traumatic way, but
kind of in a bum us out, give us fellmo
type of way.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Fear of missing out is real.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But that phrase usually comes up when people are talking
about social media.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Yeah, which is its own form of storytelling. Like you
see someone having a great time in Bali, and now
all of a sudden you want to go to Bali.
Can't point to Bali on them, mat, but do you
want a flower bass?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Okay, that's really specific, but it was a self track, gotcha.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
But I found myself judging people who, from my perspective,
were copying other people's lives. They saw on social media
then posting it on social media. But after doing so
much needed self reflection, I came to the conclusion that
I do that too. Using social media and more traditional
forms of media, I.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Can see the vacation thing it is giving.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
I'm out being adventurous and you're sitting at home on
the couch like you always do, not going to diva university.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
And a little made outfit.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Wait what it was a love and hip hop reference only.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
The Real Night only show You Are You?
Speaker 6 (05:50):
Left You?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
I'm loose, I'm floating in the universe. There's nothing but
ether around me and darkness. Hey, I don't be watching
reality TV anyway. So, like, what storylines from TV left
you feeling disappointed? Is it easier for TV shows to
leave you feeling disappointed as compared to social media?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
I mean, yeah, I think TV shows really do it
for me. Like, sure, the conflict you know they have
is often wrapped up nicely at some point, and they
might have like a special destination episode or whatever. But
generally what you're watching on TV is their quote unquote
normal lives. So I'm like, damn, I want my normal
life to be like that.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, yeah, because you're really going along for the ride
with them, like you have more time that you spend
with them, And especially for a longer series, every episode
can be this huge special day. There has to be
a lot more filler and just a lot more things
that happen in general.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
Yeah, and it's like the mundane things. I'd be like, wow,
I can't even have the mundane things. For example, one
thing that I found myself being disappointed by in my
life comparing it to TV series was therapy.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Hmmm, like talking to a therapist.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Yeah, Like I had put it off for a year
or two, but I kept seeing TV therapists work wonders
for their clients, like they were so prepared for their sessions,
deeply interested in seeing their clients improved, and their offices
were cutes, And I was like, Okay, it sounds like
that wasn't your experience, girl, not at all. I'm not
even trying to be funny. I've had multiple therapists confuse
(07:23):
me for other clients. They're like, oh, what about what
about your pet dogs? Miss and Leg? I'm like, what
are you talking about wrong, bitch?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, Like the therapists I've had were nothing like Molly's therapists.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
On Insecure two weeks ago, you said things should be
easier for me as a successful black woman, and another
time you said things should have fallen into place by now.
Is there a certain way you think your life should go?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Well, I mean I do have specific life goals, and
I think that if you work hard than it is
shot to you certain results.
Speaker 7 (08:01):
There's a medical term called magical thinking, when we believe
what we want can influence the external world, as opposed
to accepting things as they are.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yeah, I can really tell that the therapist is keyed
into Molly bringing up something that she said two weeks
ago to establish a pattern introducing medical terms.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
See and for me, you know, we came into adulthood
when folks were openly embracing therapy. So I had this
notion that I should go look at me. Sounded like Moley,
but it was depictions like this. It made me think
that a therapist would really help me.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I can see how that's disappointing, because therapy is one
of those things that it's hard to understand before you
try it yourself. So these fictional portrayals make sense to
use as an example for someone who hasn't been before
my thoughts exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
It's weird to ask someone, you know, like, how's your
therapy session, which I'll talk about, how did it make
you feel?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I've been wanted to though, honestly, but it is a little.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Weird, you know, just a little bit.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
And because of the nature of therapy, when it's therapist
shows up in a show, they're mostly there to help
a main character with a personal conundrum or reach an epiphany,
and you were.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Hoping you'd find a therapist who do the same for you.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yes, girl, main character energy, But alas life isn't a story,
and I am not a character. I am a nonfictional person.
Say it out loud, I'm a nonfictional person. So how
did you handle that disappointment with your therapist? Did you
shop around?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No?
Speaker 5 (09:28):
I stop seeing my therapists for reasons related more to
capitalism and America's messed up healthcare system. I mean, I
thought about getting another one, but the thought of having
to let someone else get to know me and my
issues was too exhausting.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
What about you.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Do you have a life imitating art moment?
Speaker 7 (09:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I do, for sure.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I mean, speaking of insecure, one thing that I see
on TV a lot that just has not been my
experience is the large but somehow close knit friend group.
You know, sometimes it's a pretty big group, like six people,
and sometimes there's like a base of three or four
people and then a concentric circle around that Kora folks.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
But either way, the group of friends is close.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I mean they all know each other super well and
have for a while, and a lot of instances they
can hit each other up in the week hours of
the morning about anything.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
They're down for last minute plans.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
They go on vacations together, they move cities, countries and
stay friends. And they've been doing stuff like having immediate
urgent group calls about drama that's going down in that
very moment, and also the drama a lot of times
isn't even that urgent, and they still be picking up
the phone. They're always debriefing and whatnot. Like in this
clip from twenties, this is the first attament I reupholstered
(10:43):
for you.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Now it's ruined.
Speaker 6 (10:45):
Yeah, who are you calling Tucks so we can come
help us pack up your We aren't packing up, okay,
we are going to Centerspiel. I am ready to get
my life from all about e.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
You just got evicted and you trying to go sit
on the grass and watch a movie.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yes, or like living single girlfriends Harlem, et cetera. The
examples of this go on where there are friend groups
that are relatively large but still very close knit.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I think something that ours both have in common is
like wanting to be like really known by somebody and feeling.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Like, is this the therapist?
Speaker 5 (11:23):
Okay, well tell me what Joe Daddy is. But I mean,
as someone who's known you for a long time, I'm
surprised that this was your example because I see you
as having that. I'm like, yeah, like you know, you
have your college friends and y'all be having all joint
birthday parties and going out the country together, and I'm like, wait,
(11:46):
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I thought that was I thought that would it was.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
So it's interesting that you, like don't experience it that way.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I really don't.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I don't because I guess when I see it. And
maybe that is the whole the fact that a TV
show has a whole mythology around it and as an
industry created to make these specific moments look like this.
But to me, it feels like the friend groups they
all mesh in a way differently than my friend groups MESH.
I feel like everything is segmented for me, Like I
feel like this, Yeah, I have these friends that I
(12:14):
do this thing with, and I have these friends over
here who I do this with. But for me, in shows,
it feels like those friend groups. Every dotty crisscross is
like a big web and everything meets in the center.
And also I also think like the logistics work differently
in the shows. I think this is like I got
to schedule this. I've been trying for a month to
(12:35):
get with these two friends at the same time and
it hasn't worked out because our schedules are very misaligned.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, and we don't be group calling at all now.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Ye, Like there's just a level of synergy in kinship
that I don't feel like I have in the same
way that I see in shows. It feels very flowery
and it feels very poetic in shows and ways that
it doesn't feel like in my life. And so I
don't want to make it seem like I don't have
people I love in my life and then I'm close
to it just doesn't work the same way that I've
(13:08):
seen it shows, and I find myself like being like.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
That looks really nice.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Yeah, it's like you don't see the Hey can you
can you come out here?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Oh no, Like you.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Don't see that back and forth like that, all the
logistics of having that prime group and all that meeting
of like it's like, oh, I know the part you
happen to be at the park.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Right, it seems so spontaneous and if everything's fresh and new,
it's breezy.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yes, it's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It's a very easy.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And of course shows are meant to be a spectacle,
so TV storytellers want our eyes to be glued to
the screen. Also, characters in their relationships they have to
have some kind of spice and intrigue, so there has
to be exposition, and they have to build a stories world.
But dang, even when we know what we're watching is
fiction and the storytellers are doing their damnedest to suspend
(13:58):
our disbelief it, it can be hard not to feel
some longing for the lifestyles that you see. And there's
psychological research around how people interact and bond with the
fictional characters that they become attached to. In a twenty
twelve study, researchers from Ohio State University use the term
quote experience taking to describe the actions of readers who
(14:20):
take on the thoughts, beliefs, and emotions of fictional characters.
Sometimes we do actually let the attitudes and actions of
fictional characters influence our real life decisions. And like for me,
I see in these fictional friend groups that everything isn't
always sweet. They make mistakes, get in fights, and they
even break up, but still they share this deep kinship
(14:43):
that even from the time I was a child, I
think I imagine all adults having.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But as an adult now it doesn't feel like that.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And ooh, now that I think about it, there is
a social media trap here too.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Black girl friend group travel is such a.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Thing, be making it look all luxurious and drama free
in the feed, acting like they have one and a
half fights every day, but still giving us fomo.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Yes, like speaking of like the big friend group, Like
I've never been a part of one, but I've been
like kind of those like special guest characters and like, oh,
they come in for this episode the cameo, Yeah, it's giving, cameo,
it's giving. We invited you because we did not have
enough people and we needed to split this trip up better.
(15:31):
But yeah, like being one the outside of the group
but still being with them. You see, like this isn't
even fun. Like it's fun on social media, but like
being with y'all is not even fun. So like, why
was I tripping off this?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Also seeing that from a sober perspective, when I would
imagine other everybody's not sober in those groups around.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Oh, absolutely, Yeah, I need to start drinking and doing drugs. Yeah,
be having fun.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's not gonna help. It's not gonna help.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
I have a sneak suspicion that we're not the only
ones who have felt dejected when our life and experiences
didn't live up to the characters we watch every week.
So I wanted to bring in an expert to give
us some insight on why we compare ourselves to fictional people,
how that's impacting us, and some reframing techniques we might
find helpful.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
When you say things like reframing techniques, it starts to
make me feel like I really am in a therapy
session already.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Not quite, but we are going to be chatting with
doctor Joy from Therapy for Black Girls right after the break.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Hey, y'all, I'm doctor joy Hard and Branford. I'm a
psychologist in Atlanta and also the founder of Therapy for
Black Girls. I'm also the author of Sisterhood Heals, The
Transformative Power of Healing in Community.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
So, you know, we're watching TV, we're watching movies, even
reading books, and we see something or like we want
this to happen in our lives. Example was therapist. I
watched Insecure, and you remember Molly's therapist. She was so good,
her office was so cute, she had all the great
(17:12):
insights for Molly and listened to her and remember everything
from last session, didn't mix her up with different clients.
And I was like, I need to go to therapy
and that's what my therapist is going to be like.
And it just did not turn out like that, and
I was very disappointed.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Yeah, So I actually thought that Molly's therapist was a
good depiction of what therapy actually looks like, because I
do feel like a lot of times television gets therapy wrong.
Most often I see like very inappropriate boundaries between therapists
and clients, which typically doesn't happen in real life. But
I actually thought Molly's therapist in terms of like not
(17:48):
getting her mixed up and like tracking across sessions, Like
I feel like that's kind of like the bare minimum.
So I'm kind of sad to hear that that did
not match up with your reality.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, I was too, honestly, doctor Joy when I heard
Katie told me this. I mean, I know about her
some of the experiences she's had in therapy, so I
feel like that soundlike a lot of people. You know,
Katie and I are close enough for her to tell me, like,
let me in on her experiences that she's had with therapists.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But I was thinking at you, I was like, yeah, like,
isn't that what they're supposed to do, like the least
of what they're supposed to do. So I'm right there
with you.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Oh, I was like, well, Molly just had the best
therapist ever.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
And that's valid coming from your perspective because that's the
experience that you've had. Yeah yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So so for me, it wasn't about therapy. For me.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
The thing that I saw not lining up with expectations
and my reality when I was watching television was friend groups.
For me, one of the things that I saw expectation of,
like looking at these really lovely like relationships that these
people had in these shows that are specifically black friend groups.
I found that I didn't have that experience in real life.
(19:00):
I found myself like, I don't want that. That seems
really nice, so there's some longing for it.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Yeah, I love that you shared that because I feel
like I have very I mean, I'm clearly in my
sisterhood bag right now, right because I'm all in the
celebration of sisterhood heels. But I find that interesting that
we're also celebrating the thirtieth anniversary of living single this year,
and I feel like that is one of those shows
that a lot of sisters go back to and say like, oh,
(19:26):
this is what I thought like friends and friend groups
were going to be like, and then the reality of
it does not match. And I think we have to
think about, you know, like what was happening in the
world thirty years ago that is very different from now. Right,
So there weren't cell phones, or if there were, like
they weren't readily available like we have them now. People
I think did maybe live in closer proximity to one another,
(19:49):
and it just feels like they didn't have as many
things that competed for their interest in time the way
that we do now. And so when you see you know,
all of them able to kind of u go together
for breakfast, it feels like they had like breakfast a
lot together on Living Single, which I think is cute,
but you know, like be able to meet each other
for breakfast before they go to work, and you know,
(20:09):
all of that stuff like that doesn't take into consideration,
like a commute and dropping kids off for daycare and
like all of these things that I think are just
very different about the world that we find ourselves in now.
And I'm not surprised to hear that you long for that.
And I do think that there are some pieces of
what we see in media on television that we can
think about, like, Okay, maybe we can't have like a
(20:32):
Brownstone where all of our best friends live, but what
pieces of this can I model and you know, kind
of take into my own life and kind of have
some semblance of that That kind of meets that need
for me, because I just think that there's so much
competing for our attention right now, right Like they didn't
have Instagram back in living single days, right and so
you know, the time we're spending scrolling on Instagram and
(20:54):
playing on TikTok, like could you be having a group
chat with your girls?
Speaker 7 (20:58):
You know?
Speaker 6 (20:58):
And I just think that there are so many things
that do distract us that it is good to be
able to kind of put all of that away and
make time to really intentionally connect with one another.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
And it sounds also when you said, look at what
aspects that you could have, you know, you could have
breakfast together sometimes, so it sounds like you're saying it's
not pathological to be looking at these examples and wanting
some of that.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
I mean that's why we resonate with certain shows, right
is because they feel super realistic. But I think you
also have to remember that there's a whole writing team
and lots of editing and all of these things that
go into making these shows that we love. But we
also love these shows because they feel very realistic to us.
They feel like things that we could achieve in some ways.
(21:45):
I think we just have to be careful not to,
you know, kind of compare our real life to something
that has a whole writing room in multiple editors.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Do you have an example of something that you saw
in storytelling that you kind of were like, yeah, it
didn't really play out like that in my real life.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
Oh you know, I feel like motherhood would have to
be that for me. And I don't think I can
point to any one like instance or you know, depiction,
but I just feel like you I saw in media,
like lots of stories around like how hard it is
to kind of you know, bring children into the family,
and how priorities shifting all of these things. In the
(22:24):
real life version of that is like so much more
difficult than I think anything that I ever saw depicted
in media.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Right, And I imagine like because being a mother is
twenty four seven and we get maybe like thirty minutes
to an hour with motherhoods depicted on the screen. Or
you know, if a book takes you ten hours to
read over the course of the book, that really does
not compare to what you're doing with your kids day
in and day out. So I can see how that
depiction is like super truncated and maybe only shows like
(22:55):
the highlights or maybe like some very low lights, but
not really all the stuff in between. But how do
you think I think social media has impacted our expectations?
Have you seen that within the Therapy for Black Girls
group or talking to people while you've been on tour.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Mm hmmm, yeah, I mean, and you know, I think
that social media as a different level of nuance to
this conversation because while we are able to recognize like
Insecure and living single and like the things that we
watch on TV as entertainment, I don't think that we
always view like what we're watching on social media as entertainment,
and a lot of it actually is meant for entertainment,
(23:32):
but because they look like real people like us, then
we get caught up in comparing, like our vacation to
the vacation they took in Bali, right, and how that
doesn't match up, and then we're really frustrated and said that, like,
our pictures don't look like the ones we saw this
influencer who has a team of photographers and like all
of these things. Like, I think we do do more
comparing ourselves to what we see on social media than
(23:55):
we even do to Insecure, because we clearly know that
those are characters. And so I think that this is
something that has come up a lot in the therapy
for Black Girls community just around people like having to
take breaks from social media because they find themselves like
doing too much comparison, or it's really hard to kind
of stay focused on whatever your journey is, whether that
(24:16):
be healing or motherhood or entrepreneurship, because you're always paying
attention to like other people's shiny objects, right So, like, oh,
they launched this course, so now do I need a course?
Or oh, look at how beautiful their family portraits are
in mine don't look like that. Like, I just feel
like social media does it elicits a lot of these
very strong reactions from people, and I don't think they
(24:38):
always recognize like what's going on because you think it
is you kind of keeping in touch with friends, right
like when you think about like some of these parasocial relationships,
right Like, there's a lot of money to be made
by us feeling like we have these you know, cousin
in my head kind of relationship with people that we
follow on Instagram. But in a lot of ways, that
can be unhealthy because you are setting yourself up and
(25:00):
trying to compare yourself to something that is like an
idealized version of life as opposed to like the basic
day to day version of life that most of us
are actually living.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
We'll be back with doctor Joy after the.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Break, So if we're having these moments where we're looking
at a television show and we're saying that our reality
doesn't match up to it, but we want them to
be more in alignment. What are ways that we can
(25:34):
tell that in ourselves. Okay, that's normal for us to do.
There are specific psychological reasons while we're responding this way,
and we are able to move through.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Life still like in a healthy, normal.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
Way till anytime things kind of veer off course, where
you are finding disturbances in your sleep, disturbances in your appetite,
you are wanting to kind of be less engaged with
things that you normally were really excited about. Like, I
think all of those are signs that like something is
off and you need to kind of pay attention to
(26:09):
like what has happened. I also think you have to
be careful. And I think we kind of joke about this,
but I do know that there are extremes for any circumstance, Right,
we kind of joke about, you know, like, oh, what
do I do now that my favorite show is no
longer on the air and I need a support group
and you know, like all of these things, And I
think like some of that is normal. Like, you know,
(26:30):
I think a lot of us were sad when Insecure
ended because we loved it and like wanted to spend
Sunday nights with them. But if you find yourself staying
in that space for too long, I do think that
that is an indication that, like something, there's some need
that's not being met that you were addressing through this show.
Because it's normal to kind of have, you know, parasocial
relationships and attachments to characters, but they are characters, right,
(26:53):
And so I think when you find yourself over identifying
with a particular fantasy world or some disturbed in sleep,
or you're kind of spending too much time kind of
being obsessed around things that happened on the show, and
I do think that that is an indication that, you know, hey,
what's going on here? Like are you trying to avoid
something else in your real life by being preoccupied with
(27:14):
this fantasy world that somebody else created?
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Speaking of being too enthralled in these shows, do you
have any tips for folks who are struggling with managing
expectations for like grounding themselves in reality, any practices that
you would recommend.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
Yeah, So, I actually think journaling is an excellent tool
for lots of these kinds of things, because I think
when you can write things down or talk them through,
like if you want to do voice notes and really
kind of get at like what is motivating your behavior,
I think that that unveils a lot for us. Right, So,
if you're finding yourself kind of staying with a particular storyline,
(27:52):
or you feel like the lines are blurring between reality
and fantasy world, like, well, what is it that makes
me want to spend time with these characters? And where
might that be missing in my own life? And what
kinds of things can I do to get more of that?
You know, kind of like our earlier conversations of if
you're missing this kind of thing, this living single vibe,
like what pieces of that can you bring into your
(28:14):
own life? And I think journaling is an excellent way
to kind of get at some of those questions and
to really be able to check in with yourself to
see where there may be, you know, kind of holes
in your reality. I also think I have to, of
course advocate for therapy, because I think talking with a
therapist about some of these concerns can be really helpful.
And I think if you're somebody who finds yourself like
(28:35):
struggling with like, Okay, I'm feeling very overidentified with a character,
or you know, I'm sticking with these story longs longer
than I think I should. It may feel kind of
weird to say that to like a friend, but you know,
in a therapist's office, like you know, there is no
weird thing, Like there's nothing that you can't go to
a therapist with, and so it may feel safer to
be able to kind of talk through whatever it is
(28:56):
that you're feeling with a therapist as opposed to somebody
who is in your life on a more regular basis.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I think one of the things that is similar
to me in Eve's expectations versus reality is just wanting
to be known by somebody, Like I want my therapist
to know me. She wants to have that group of
friends that knows her. And so one thing that I
really liked from your book is doing that self assessment
and sisterhood assessment. So if someone's struggling with, oh, like
(29:26):
I wanted to have this like big friend group or
just like a really good girlfriend and they're not feeling that, like,
take that assessment, say like, Okay, and or do I
have people in my life that I'm just kind of
overlooking that actually do pour into me and how am
I as a friend? Because you know, it needs to
have that reciprocation. So that's one thing that I was like, oh,
doctor Joy read me, but it was helpful after I
(29:50):
was mad at you for a little bit.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Anger is a totally totally appropriate response to have. And
you know, I really want to stay there for a moment, Katie,
because this feeling of being known by somebody and really
seen for all of who we are is incredibly powerful.
And I think that that is one of the strengths
that black women have right is being able to kind
of hold space and like our friends and our girls
(30:17):
can kind of see us even when we don't want
to admit that thing to ourselves. And I don't think
that there's anything wrong with that. I think a lot
of times what I'm seeing now is people kind of
wanting to be unbothered, so to speak, and like, oh,
it's okay if like people don't pay attention to me,
but actually it's not like we're humans, We're not robots,
and so this longing to be known and really seen
(30:39):
by people is something that is totally appropriate, and I
think it's beautiful when we can cultivate spaces where we
can do that for one another. It's really important.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Now it's time for my favorite segment of the show,
my favorite and only segment of our show, roll credits,
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing,
and we have our esteemed guests, Doctor Joy, and we
will let her kick it off. Who are what are
you giving credit to this week? Doctor Joy?
Speaker 4 (31:08):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (31:09):
I think I will give credit to one of my
favorite restaurants here in Atlanta. It's a taco place called
tacoiadell Soul. Okay, It's my favorite favorite place, favorite caso
in Atlanta for sure. And when I think about that,
so it is kind of like a tradition for my family,
like we are typically there weekly, and when I think about,
(31:30):
like throughout the pandemic, like that was the thing that
kind of felt like a constant. So even when we
couldn't go in restaurants to eat, we would like do
us to go order And it just feels like this
thing that has kind of been like a grounding space
for me and my family. So I think that would
be my credit would be tacari Adel soul.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Okay, shout out that keso.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Tacos last night.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
What about you, Eves.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Let's see. I would.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Like to give credit to being barefoot outside specifically. Kenny
laughs at me every time I give credit to something.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know it seems like it's out of left field,
but it's not a promise. I just love being barefoot.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I have been wanting to be barefoot a lot more lately,
like I always do. And I think you know that,
but it feels really good. It feels grounding. Speaking of grounding,
I don't know. Yeah, that's it. That's all I have
to say about it.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Period. I would like to give credit to the seasons.
I feel like a little twinge of fall in the
air and I was like, Oh, we're going into a
different season. And I was like, oh, I'm going into
a different season of my life.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
How fitting?
Speaker 5 (32:49):
So like literal seasons and like seasons of our lives,
And like I'm the type of person who like gets
really emotional when there's like a very concrete change, like
if there's like a gradation or like a funeral, it's
like things are different now. And I feel like the
seasons are kind of like a way to mark that
or like nature's way of marking that. So I want
(33:10):
to give credit.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
To the seasons.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
It makes you super like introspective every time I go
through a season, changing whether it's just summer to fall
or life stuff. Yeah, and doctor Joy, how can people
keep up with you? How can they listen to you
read your book all those good things?
Speaker 6 (33:29):
Yeah, so you can find me at Hello, doctor Joy
across all the social media platforms. I would love for
you to grab a copy of Sisterhood Heels at Sisterhoodheels
dot com or your favorite local bookstore and definitely share
your thoughts with me because I love hearing how people
are like going to their group chats with the conversation
around Sister at Heels. So definitely let me know your
(33:50):
thoughts once you grab it, and then you can check
out the podcast Therapy for Black Girls. New episodes come
out every Wednesday morning and you can find all of
that at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
So thank you, so so much, thank you.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
I appreciate y'all having me, of course.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
So that's that. On that, We'll be back next episode.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
See You.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Follow us on.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us an
email at hello at on Theme dot Show. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and all the stuff
I'll never told your production for iHeartRadio, and today we
have a treat for you, a very special treat. So,
as you know, our good friend Eves has started a
(00:29):
new podcast that you've heard Eve's on here doing various
Female First also some other episodes. You also heard her
and her co host over on their podcast on Theme
Katie come on and talk about the importance of black storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
And we really love.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Talking to them, we love working with them. They sent
us a card. We gushed about it in the most
recent Female First. I saw it today and I was
once again overwhelmed by like oh, and so we really
wanted to highlight that if you haven't gone to listen
to the show yet, if you haven't subscribed, we wanted
to give you a taste of it.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Because it is really really good.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
They've done such a good job and they have so
many topics that just fit naturally into what we talk about.
They're just a if you're interested in this show, you'd
be interested in this.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
Yes, and then you also need to be subscribed for
when they actually come out with my excited act, Like
I'm already excited for the Cinderella Brandy Cinderella episode, which
I have been begging them to do and they promised
that they would.
Speaker 1 (01:36):
It was honestly, it was a heartfelt campaign and you succeeded.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
I'm pretty sure. I can't wait. I'm excited about it too.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
We could do like a group event, we could replay
the episode.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Let's do this. Yes, I think we can. I think
we can.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
So you might hear a few because we had a
hard time picking what episode we wanted to run in
our feed from on Theme because there's also one about horror,
and you know we're all about horror. But today we
are going to play an episode called TV fomo irl
in which Katie and Eves talk with doctor Joy Harden
(02:18):
Bradford of Therapy for Black Girls. And it's just a
great fit for the show, and we hope that you
enjoy it. Please go subscribe And yeah, we'll hopefully get
to talk more about this later with Eves and Katie,
but yes, in the meantime, please enjoy.
Speaker 4 (02:38):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and fair Weather
Friends Media.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
You are.
Speaker 5 (02:58):
Today's episode TV Fomo i RL. You ever be watching
a show and see the characters experiencing something that you
never experienced and be like.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
I ain't never had that ever happened to me.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
I'm trying to get see what that be like, right.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Dam Look, yeah, they do live in their best lives
and I'm just over here watching them from my average life.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
But I mean, you don't have to just sit and watch.
You could could what you know, use those characters as
a blueprint and do what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
So you're saying I should mimic a TV show in.
Speaker 5 (03:35):
My real life, I mean when you say it like that,
so how would you say it? Like you never seen
something on TV or a movie or read something in
a book and thought, I want that to happen to me.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
Yeah, for sure I have. Who hasn't exactly our inspires.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
It's so hard not to compare our lives to the
storylines we see on the screen and on the page.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
But unlike television and movies, real life doesn't give us
second takes or feed us lines. There are no copy
editors are fact checkers, and our day to day lives.
Speaker 5 (04:03):
In this week's episode, we'll look back at the times
we compared our lives to fictional storylines, and we're in
for a rude Awakening.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
We'll explore the potential negative impacts of life attempting to
imitate art with doctor Joy Harden Bradford of Therapy for
Black Girls.
Speaker 5 (04:18):
I'm Katie, the author of the forthcoming anthology about black
bookstores in the United States, Prose to the People.
Speaker 4 (04:23):
And I'm Eves, a writer, a yoga teacher and student,
and a person who loves to be outdoors.
Speaker 5 (04:29):
We talk a lot about how stories have impacted us.
Speaker 4 (04:32):
Yes, we have an entire podcast dedicated to black storytelling indeed.
Speaker 5 (04:36):
Facts, And I've been thinking about the way storytelling can
negatively impact us, like not in a traumatic way, but
kind of in a bum us out, give us fellmo
type of way.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Fear of missing out is real.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
But that phrase usually comes up when people are talking
about social media.
Speaker 5 (04:52):
Yeah, which is its own form of storytelling. Like you
see someone having a great time in Bali, and now
all of a sudden you want to go to Bali.
Can't point to Bali on them, mat, but do you
want a flower bass?
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Okay, that's really specific, but it was a self track, gotcha.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
But I found myself judging people who, from my perspective,
were copying other people's lives. They saw on social media
then posting it on social media. But after doing so
much needed self reflection, I came to the conclusion that
I do that too. Using social media and more traditional
forms of media, I.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Can see the vacation thing it is giving.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
I'm out being adventurous and you're sitting at home on
the couch like you always do, not going to diva university.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
And a little made outfit.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Right.
Speaker 5 (05:37):
Wait what it was a love and hip hop reference only.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
The Real Night only show You Are You?
Speaker 6 (05:50):
Left You?
Speaker 4 (05:51):
I'm loose, I'm floating in the universe. There's nothing but
ether around me and darkness. Hey, I don't be watching
reality TV anyway. So, like, what storylines from TV left
you feeling disappointed? Is it easier for TV shows to
leave you feeling disappointed as compared to social media?
Speaker 5 (06:10):
I mean, yeah, I think TV shows really do it
for me. Like, sure, the conflict you know they have
is often wrapped up nicely at some point, and they
might have like a special destination episode or whatever. But
generally what you're watching on TV is their quote unquote
normal lives. So I'm like, damn, I want my normal
life to be like that.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
Yeah, yeah, because you're really going along for the ride
with them, like you have more time that you spend
with them, And especially for a longer series, every episode
can be this huge special day. There has to be
a lot more filler and just a lot more things
that happen in general.
Speaker 5 (06:44):
Yeah, and it's like the mundane things. I'd be like, wow,
I can't even have the mundane things. For example, one
thing that I found myself being disappointed by in my
life comparing it to TV series was therapy.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
Hmmm, like talking to a therapist.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
Yeah, Like I had put it off for a year
or two, but I kept seeing TV therapists work wonders
for their clients, like they were so prepared for their sessions,
deeply interested in seeing their clients improved, and their offices
were cutes, And I was like, Okay, it sounds like
that wasn't your experience, girl, not at all. I'm not
even trying to be funny. I've had multiple therapists confuse
(07:23):
me for other clients. They're like, oh, what about what
about your pet dogs? Miss and Leg? I'm like, what
are you talking about wrong, bitch?
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
Yeah, Like the therapists I've had were nothing like Molly's therapists.
Speaker 7 (07:37):
On Insecure two weeks ago, you said things should be
easier for me as a successful black woman, and another
time you said things should have fallen into place by now.
Is there a certain way you think your life should go?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (07:53):
Well, I mean I do have specific life goals, and
I think that if you work hard than it is
shot to you certain results.
Speaker 7 (08:01):
There's a medical term called magical thinking, when we believe
what we want can influence the external world, as opposed
to accepting things as they are.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
Yeah, I can really tell that the therapist is keyed
into Molly bringing up something that she said two weeks
ago to establish a pattern introducing medical terms.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
See and for me, you know, we came into adulthood
when folks were openly embracing therapy. So I had this
notion that I should go look at me. Sounded like Moley,
but it was depictions like this. It made me think
that a therapist would really help me.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
I can see how that's disappointing, because therapy is one
of those things that it's hard to understand before you
try it yourself. So these fictional portrayals make sense to
use as an example for someone who hasn't been before
my thoughts exactly.
Speaker 5 (08:47):
It's weird to ask someone, you know, like, how's your
therapy session, which I'll talk about, how did it make
you feel?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
I've been wanted to though, honestly, but it is a little.
Speaker 6 (08:56):
Weird, you know, just a little bit.
Speaker 5 (08:58):
And because of the nature of therapy, when it's therapist
shows up in a show, they're mostly there to help
a main character with a personal conundrum or reach an epiphany,
and you were.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Hoping you'd find a therapist who do the same for you.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
Yes, girl, main character energy, But alas life isn't a story,
and I am not a character. I am a nonfictional person.
Say it out loud, I'm a nonfictional person. So how
did you handle that disappointment with your therapist? Did you
shop around?
Speaker 4 (09:28):
No?
Speaker 5 (09:28):
I stop seeing my therapists for reasons related more to
capitalism and America's messed up healthcare system. I mean, I
thought about getting another one, but the thought of having
to let someone else get to know me and my
issues was too exhausting.
Speaker 2 (09:43):
What about you.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Do you have a life imitating art moment?
Speaker 7 (09:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I do, for sure.
Speaker 4 (09:47):
I mean, speaking of insecure, one thing that I see
on TV a lot that just has not been my
experience is the large but somehow close knit friend group.
You know, sometimes it's a pretty big group, like six people,
and sometimes there's like a base of three or four
people and then a concentric circle around that Kora folks.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
But either way, the group of friends is close.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
I mean they all know each other super well and
have for a while, and a lot of instances they
can hit each other up in the week hours of
the morning about anything.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
They're down for last minute plans.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
They go on vacations together, they move cities, countries and
stay friends. And they've been doing stuff like having immediate
urgent group calls about drama that's going down in that
very moment, and also the drama a lot of times
isn't even that urgent, and they still be picking up
the phone. They're always debriefing and whatnot. Like in this
clip from twenties, this is the first attament I reupholstered
(10:43):
for you.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Now it's ruined.
Speaker 6 (10:45):
Yeah, who are you calling Tucks so we can come
help us pack up your We aren't packing up, okay,
we are going to Centerspiel. I am ready to get
my life from all about e.
Speaker 5 (10:55):
You just got evicted and you trying to go sit
on the grass and watch a movie.
Speaker 4 (10:59):
Yes, or like living single girlfriends Harlem, et cetera. The
examples of this go on where there are friend groups
that are relatively large but still very close knit.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I think something that ours both have in common is
like wanting to be like really known by somebody and feeling.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Like, is this the therapist?
Speaker 5 (11:23):
Okay, well tell me what Joe Daddy is. But I mean,
as someone who's known you for a long time, I'm
surprised that this was your example because I see you
as having that. I'm like, yeah, like you know, you
have your college friends and y'all be having all joint
birthday parties and going out the country together, and I'm like, wait,
(11:46):
what's going on?
Speaker 2 (11:46):
I thought that was I thought that would it was.
Speaker 5 (11:48):
So it's interesting that you, like don't experience it that way.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I really don't.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
I don't because I guess when I see it. And
maybe that is the whole the fact that a TV
show has a whole mythology around it and as an
industry created to make these specific moments look like this.
But to me, it feels like the friend groups they
all mesh in a way differently than my friend groups MESH.
I feel like everything is segmented for me, Like I
feel like this, Yeah, I have these friends that I
(12:14):
do this thing with, and I have these friends over
here who I do this with. But for me, in shows,
it feels like those friend groups. Every dotty crisscross is
like a big web and everything meets in the center.
And also I also think like the logistics work differently
in the shows. I think this is like I got
to schedule this. I've been trying for a month to
(12:35):
get with these two friends at the same time and
it hasn't worked out because our schedules are very misaligned.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, and we don't be group calling at all now.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
Ye, Like there's just a level of synergy in kinship
that I don't feel like I have in the same
way that I see in shows. It feels very flowery
and it feels very poetic in shows and ways that
it doesn't feel like in my life. And so I
don't want to make it seem like I don't have
people I love in my life and then I'm close
to it just doesn't work the same way that I've
(13:08):
seen it shows, and I find myself like being like.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
That looks really nice.
Speaker 5 (13:12):
Yeah, it's like you don't see the Hey can you
can you come out here?
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Oh no, Like you.
Speaker 5 (13:19):
Don't see that back and forth like that, all the
logistics of having that prime group and all that meeting
of like it's like, oh, I know the part you
happen to be at the park.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Right, it seems so spontaneous and if everything's fresh and new,
it's breezy.
Speaker 5 (13:33):
Yes, it's a good way to put it.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
It's a very easy.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And of course shows are meant to be a spectacle,
so TV storytellers want our eyes to be glued to
the screen. Also, characters in their relationships they have to
have some kind of spice and intrigue, so there has
to be exposition, and they have to build a stories world.
But dang, even when we know what we're watching is
fiction and the storytellers are doing their damnedest to suspend
(13:58):
our disbelief it, it can be hard not to feel
some longing for the lifestyles that you see. And there's
psychological research around how people interact and bond with the
fictional characters that they become attached to. In a twenty
twelve study, researchers from Ohio State University use the term
quote experience taking to describe the actions of readers who
(14:20):
take on the thoughts, beliefs, and emotions of fictional characters.
Sometimes we do actually let the attitudes and actions of
fictional characters influence our real life decisions. And like for me,
I see in these fictional friend groups that everything isn't
always sweet. They make mistakes, get in fights, and they
even break up, but still they share this deep kinship
(14:43):
that even from the time I was a child, I
think I imagine all adults having.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
But as an adult now it doesn't feel like that.
Speaker 4 (14:52):
And ooh, now that I think about it, there is
a social media trap here too.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Black girl friend group travel is such a.
Speaker 4 (14:58):
Thing, be making it look all luxurious and drama free
in the feed, acting like they have one and a
half fights every day, but still giving us fomo.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Yes, like speaking of like the big friend group, Like
I've never been a part of one, but I've been
like kind of those like special guest characters and like, oh,
they come in for this episode the cameo, Yeah, it's giving, cameo,
it's giving. We invited you because we did not have
enough people and we needed to split this trip up better.
(15:31):
But yeah, like being one the outside of the group
but still being with them. You see, like this isn't
even fun. Like it's fun on social media, but like
being with y'all is not even fun. So like, why
was I tripping off this?
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Also seeing that from a sober perspective, when I would
imagine other everybody's not sober in those groups around.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Oh, absolutely, Yeah, I need to start drinking and doing drugs. Yeah,
be having fun.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
It's not gonna help. It's not gonna help.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
I have a sneak suspicion that we're not the only
ones who have felt dejected when our life and experiences
didn't live up to the characters we watch every week.
So I wanted to bring in an expert to give
us some insight on why we compare ourselves to fictional people,
how that's impacting us, and some reframing techniques we might
find helpful.
Speaker 4 (16:16):
When you say things like reframing techniques, it starts to
make me feel like I really am in a therapy
session already.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
Not quite, but we are going to be chatting with
doctor Joy from Therapy for Black Girls right after the break.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Hey, y'all, I'm doctor joy Hard and Branford. I'm a
psychologist in Atlanta and also the founder of Therapy for
Black Girls. I'm also the author of Sisterhood Heals, The
Transformative Power of Healing in Community.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
So, you know, we're watching TV, we're watching movies, even
reading books, and we see something or like we want
this to happen in our lives. Example was therapist. I
watched Insecure, and you remember Molly's therapist. She was so good,
her office was so cute, she had all the great
(17:12):
insights for Molly and listened to her and remember everything
from last session, didn't mix her up with different clients.
And I was like, I need to go to therapy
and that's what my therapist is going to be like.
And it just did not turn out like that, and
I was very disappointed.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
Yeah, So I actually thought that Molly's therapist was a
good depiction of what therapy actually looks like, because I
do feel like a lot of times television gets therapy wrong.
Most often I see like very inappropriate boundaries between therapists
and clients, which typically doesn't happen in real life. But
I actually thought Molly's therapist in terms of like not
(17:48):
getting her mixed up and like tracking across sessions, Like
I feel like that's kind of like the bare minimum.
So I'm kind of sad to hear that that did
not match up with your reality.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Yeah, I was too, honestly, doctor Joy when I heard
Katie told me this. I mean, I know about her
some of the experiences she's had in therapy, so I
feel like that soundlike a lot of people. You know,
Katie and I are close enough for her to tell me, like,
let me in on her experiences that she's had with therapists.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
But I was thinking at you, I was like, yeah, like,
isn't that what they're supposed to do, like the least
of what they're supposed to do. So I'm right there
with you.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Oh, I was like, well, Molly just had the best
therapist ever.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
And that's valid coming from your perspective because that's the
experience that you've had. Yeah yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
So so for me, it wasn't about therapy. For me.
Speaker 4 (18:38):
The thing that I saw not lining up with expectations
and my reality when I was watching television was friend groups.
For me, one of the things that I saw expectation of,
like looking at these really lovely like relationships that these
people had in these shows that are specifically black friend groups.
I found that I didn't have that experience in real life.
(19:00):
I found myself like, I don't want that. That seems
really nice, so there's some longing for it.
Speaker 6 (19:06):
Yeah, I love that you shared that because I feel
like I have very I mean, I'm clearly in my
sisterhood bag right now, right because I'm all in the
celebration of sisterhood heels. But I find that interesting that
we're also celebrating the thirtieth anniversary of living single this year,
and I feel like that is one of those shows
that a lot of sisters go back to and say like, oh,
(19:26):
this is what I thought like friends and friend groups
were going to be like, and then the reality of
it does not match. And I think we have to
think about, you know, like what was happening in the
world thirty years ago that is very different from now. Right,
So there weren't cell phones, or if there were, like
they weren't readily available like we have them now. People
I think did maybe live in closer proximity to one another,
(19:49):
and it just feels like they didn't have as many
things that competed for their interest in time the way
that we do now. And so when you see you know,
all of them able to kind of u go together
for breakfast, it feels like they had like breakfast a
lot together on Living Single, which I think is cute,
but you know, like be able to meet each other
for breakfast before they go to work, and you know,
(20:09):
all of that stuff like that doesn't take into consideration,
like a commute and dropping kids off for daycare and
like all of these things that I think are just
very different about the world that we find ourselves in now.
And I'm not surprised to hear that you long for that.
And I do think that there are some pieces of
what we see in media on television that we can
think about, like, Okay, maybe we can't have like a
(20:32):
Brownstone where all of our best friends live, but what
pieces of this can I model and you know, kind
of take into my own life and kind of have
some semblance of that That kind of meets that need
for me, because I just think that there's so much
competing for our attention right now, right Like they didn't
have Instagram back in living single days, right and so
you know, the time we're spending scrolling on Instagram and
(20:54):
playing on TikTok, like could you be having a group
chat with your girls?
Speaker 7 (20:58):
You know?
Speaker 6 (20:58):
And I just think that there are so many things
that do distract us that it is good to be
able to kind of put all of that away and
make time to really intentionally connect with one another.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
And it sounds also when you said, look at what
aspects that you could have, you know, you could have
breakfast together sometimes, so it sounds like you're saying it's
not pathological to be looking at these examples and wanting
some of that.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 6 (21:24):
I mean that's why we resonate with certain shows, right
is because they feel super realistic. But I think you
also have to remember that there's a whole writing team
and lots of editing and all of these things that
go into making these shows that we love. But we
also love these shows because they feel very realistic to us.
They feel like things that we could achieve in some ways.
(21:45):
I think we just have to be careful not to,
you know, kind of compare our real life to something
that has a whole writing room in multiple editors.
Speaker 5 (21:53):
Do you have an example of something that you saw
in storytelling that you kind of were like, yeah, it
didn't really play out like that in my real life.
Speaker 6 (22:02):
Oh you know, I feel like motherhood would have to
be that for me. And I don't think I can
point to any one like instance or you know, depiction,
but I just feel like you I saw in media,
like lots of stories around like how hard it is
to kind of you know, bring children into the family,
and how priorities shifting all of these things. In the
(22:24):
real life version of that is like so much more
difficult than I think anything that I ever saw depicted
in media.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
Right, And I imagine like because being a mother is
twenty four seven and we get maybe like thirty minutes
to an hour with motherhoods depicted on the screen. Or
you know, if a book takes you ten hours to
read over the course of the book, that really does
not compare to what you're doing with your kids day
in and day out. So I can see how that
depiction is like super truncated and maybe only shows like
(22:55):
the highlights or maybe like some very low lights, but
not really all the stuff in between. But how do
you think I think social media has impacted our expectations?
Have you seen that within the Therapy for Black Girls
group or talking to people while you've been on tour.
Speaker 6 (23:09):
Mm hmmm, yeah, I mean, and you know, I think
that social media as a different level of nuance to
this conversation because while we are able to recognize like
Insecure and living single and like the things that we
watch on TV as entertainment, I don't think that we
always view like what we're watching on social media as entertainment,
and a lot of it actually is meant for entertainment,
(23:32):
but because they look like real people like us, then
we get caught up in comparing, like our vacation to
the vacation they took in Bali, right, and how that
doesn't match up, and then we're really frustrated and said that, like,
our pictures don't look like the ones we saw this
influencer who has a team of photographers and like all
of these things. Like, I think we do do more
comparing ourselves to what we see on social media than
(23:55):
we even do to Insecure, because we clearly know that
those are characters. And so I think that this is
something that has come up a lot in the therapy
for Black Girls community just around people like having to
take breaks from social media because they find themselves like
doing too much comparison, or it's really hard to kind
of stay focused on whatever your journey is, whether that
(24:16):
be healing or motherhood or entrepreneurship, because you're always paying
attention to like other people's shiny objects, right So, like, oh,
they launched this course, so now do I need a course?
Or oh, look at how beautiful their family portraits are
in mine don't look like that. Like, I just feel
like social media does it elicits a lot of these
very strong reactions from people, and I don't think they
(24:38):
always recognize like what's going on because you think it
is you kind of keeping in touch with friends, right
like when you think about like some of these parasocial relationships,
right Like, there's a lot of money to be made
by us feeling like we have these you know, cousin
in my head kind of relationship with people that we
follow on Instagram. But in a lot of ways, that
can be unhealthy because you are setting yourself up and
(25:00):
trying to compare yourself to something that is like an
idealized version of life as opposed to like the basic
day to day version of life that most of us
are actually living.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
We'll be back with doctor Joy after the.
Speaker 4 (25:13):
Break, So if we're having these moments where we're looking
at a television show and we're saying that our reality
doesn't match up to it, but we want them to
be more in alignment. What are ways that we can
(25:34):
tell that in ourselves. Okay, that's normal for us to do.
There are specific psychological reasons while we're responding this way,
and we are able to move through.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Life still like in a healthy, normal.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
Way till anytime things kind of veer off course, where
you are finding disturbances in your sleep, disturbances in your appetite,
you are wanting to kind of be less engaged with
things that you normally were really excited about. Like, I
think all of those are signs that like something is
off and you need to kind of pay attention to
(26:09):
like what has happened. I also think you have to
be careful. And I think we kind of joke about this,
but I do know that there are extremes for any circumstance, Right,
we kind of joke about, you know, like, oh, what
do I do now that my favorite show is no
longer on the air and I need a support group
and you know, like all of these things, And I
think like some of that is normal. Like, you know,
(26:30):
I think a lot of us were sad when Insecure
ended because we loved it and like wanted to spend
Sunday nights with them. But if you find yourself staying
in that space for too long, I do think that
that is an indication that, like something, there's some need
that's not being met that you were addressing through this show.
Because it's normal to kind of have, you know, parasocial
relationships and attachments to characters, but they are characters, right,
(26:53):
And so I think when you find yourself over identifying
with a particular fantasy world or some disturbed in sleep,
or you're kind of spending too much time kind of
being obsessed around things that happened on the show, and
I do think that that is an indication that, you know, hey,
what's going on here? Like are you trying to avoid
something else in your real life by being preoccupied with
(27:14):
this fantasy world that somebody else created?
Speaker 5 (27:17):
Speaking of being too enthralled in these shows, do you
have any tips for folks who are struggling with managing
expectations for like grounding themselves in reality, any practices that
you would recommend.
Speaker 6 (27:32):
Yeah, So, I actually think journaling is an excellent tool
for lots of these kinds of things, because I think
when you can write things down or talk them through,
like if you want to do voice notes and really
kind of get at like what is motivating your behavior,
I think that that unveils a lot for us. Right, So,
if you're finding yourself kind of staying with a particular storyline,
(27:52):
or you feel like the lines are blurring between reality
and fantasy world, like, well, what is it that makes
me want to spend time with these characters? And where
might that be missing in my own life? And what
kinds of things can I do to get more of that?
You know, kind of like our earlier conversations of if
you're missing this kind of thing, this living single vibe,
like what pieces of that can you bring into your
(28:14):
own life? And I think journaling is an excellent way
to kind of get at some of those questions and
to really be able to check in with yourself to
see where there may be, you know, kind of holes
in your reality. I also think I have to, of
course advocate for therapy, because I think talking with a
therapist about some of these concerns can be really helpful.
And I think if you're somebody who finds yourself like
(28:35):
struggling with like, Okay, I'm feeling very overidentified with a character,
or you know, I'm sticking with these story longs longer
than I think I should. It may feel kind of
weird to say that to like a friend, but you know,
in a therapist's office, like you know, there is no
weird thing, Like there's nothing that you can't go to
a therapist with, and so it may feel safer to
be able to kind of talk through whatever it is
(28:56):
that you're feeling with a therapist as opposed to somebody
who is in your life on a more regular basis.
Speaker 5 (29:03):
And I think one of the things that is similar
to me in Eve's expectations versus reality is just wanting
to be known by somebody, Like I want my therapist
to know me. She wants to have that group of
friends that knows her. And so one thing that I
really liked from your book is doing that self assessment
and sisterhood assessment. So if someone's struggling with, oh, like
(29:26):
I wanted to have this like big friend group or
just like a really good girlfriend and they're not feeling that, like,
take that assessment, say like, Okay, and or do I
have people in my life that I'm just kind of
overlooking that actually do pour into me and how am
I as a friend? Because you know, it needs to
have that reciprocation. So that's one thing that I was like, oh,
doctor Joy read me, but it was helpful after I
(29:50):
was mad at you for a little bit.
Speaker 6 (29:55):
Anger is a totally totally appropriate response to have. And
you know, I really want to stay there for a moment, Katie,
because this feeling of being known by somebody and really
seen for all of who we are is incredibly powerful.
And I think that that is one of the strengths
that black women have right is being able to kind
of hold space and like our friends and our girls
(30:17):
can kind of see us even when we don't want
to admit that thing to ourselves. And I don't think
that there's anything wrong with that. I think a lot
of times what I'm seeing now is people kind of
wanting to be unbothered, so to speak, and like, oh,
it's okay if like people don't pay attention to me,
but actually it's not like we're humans, We're not robots,
and so this longing to be known and really seen
(30:39):
by people is something that is totally appropriate, and I
think it's beautiful when we can cultivate spaces where we
can do that for one another. It's really important.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Now it's time for my favorite segment of the show,
my favorite and only segment of our show, roll credits,
where we give credit to a person, place, or thing,
and we have our esteemed guests, Doctor Joy, and we
will let her kick it off. Who are what are
you giving credit to this week? Doctor Joy?
Speaker 4 (31:08):
Oh?
Speaker 6 (31:09):
I think I will give credit to one of my
favorite restaurants here in Atlanta. It's a taco place called
tacoiadell Soul. Okay, It's my favorite favorite place, favorite caso
in Atlanta for sure. And when I think about that,
so it is kind of like a tradition for my family,
like we are typically there weekly, and when I think about,
(31:30):
like throughout the pandemic, like that was the thing that
kind of felt like a constant. So even when we
couldn't go in restaurants to eat, we would like do
us to go order And it just feels like this
thing that has kind of been like a grounding space
for me and my family. So I think that would
be my credit would be tacari Adel soul.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Okay, shout out that keso.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Tacos last night.
Speaker 6 (31:53):
I love it.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
What about you, Eves.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
Let's see. I would.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
Like to give credit to being barefoot outside specifically. Kenny
laughs at me every time I give credit to something.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know it seems like it's out of left field,
but it's not a promise. I just love being barefoot.
Speaker 4 (32:17):
I have been wanting to be barefoot a lot more lately,
like I always do. And I think you know that,
but it feels really good. It feels grounding. Speaking of grounding,
I don't know. Yeah, that's it. That's all I have
to say about it.
Speaker 5 (32:31):
Period. I would like to give credit to the seasons.
I feel like a little twinge of fall in the
air and I was like, Oh, we're going into a
different season. And I was like, oh, I'm going into
a different season of my life.
Speaker 2 (32:48):
How fitting?
Speaker 5 (32:49):
So like literal seasons and like seasons of our lives,
And like I'm the type of person who like gets
really emotional when there's like a very concrete change, like
if there's like a gradation or like a funeral, it's
like things are different now. And I feel like the
seasons are kind of like a way to mark that
or like nature's way of marking that. So I want
(33:10):
to give credit.
Speaker 2 (33:10):
To the seasons.
Speaker 5 (33:11):
It makes you super like introspective every time I go
through a season, changing whether it's just summer to fall
or life stuff. Yeah, and doctor Joy, how can people
keep up with you? How can they listen to you
read your book all those good things?
Speaker 6 (33:29):
Yeah, so you can find me at Hello, doctor Joy
across all the social media platforms. I would love for
you to grab a copy of Sisterhood Heels at Sisterhoodheels
dot com or your favorite local bookstore and definitely share
your thoughts with me because I love hearing how people
are like going to their group chats with the conversation
around Sister at Heels. So definitely let me know your
(33:50):
thoughts once you grab it, and then you can check
out the podcast Therapy for Black Girls. New episodes come
out every Wednesday morning and you can find all of
that at Therapy for Blackgirls dot com.
Speaker 5 (34:00):
So thank you, so so much, thank you.
Speaker 6 (34:03):
I appreciate y'all having me, of course.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
So that's that. On that, We'll be back next episode.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
See You.
Speaker 4 (34:18):
On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media.
This episode was written by Eves, jeffco and Katie Mitchell.
It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
Follow us on.
Speaker 4 (34:30):
Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us an
email at hello at on Theme dot Show. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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