SMNTY Ships It

Shipping has gone from a derided part of fandom to a mainstream component, and with that has come good and bad. We talk about the history and psychology of shipping, and why shipping should be included in our conversations about the beauties and toxicities of fandom.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Staphone
ever told you protection of iHeartRadio? And today we are
recording an episode that I'm not sure when it will
come out, but I'm very excited about it.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
We've been talking about this episode for a minute.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Yeah, we have actually I think over a year at least,
but it was I really got a catalyst when our
friend of the show listener Jamie wrote in and suggested, quote,
what about shipping and problematic ships like the non con
forcing a sexual aspect into a friendship and shipping wars

(00:49):
with the related internet abuse, which for some of you,
I bet you're like, what does that mean? We're gonna
talk about it, We're gonna break it all down. But yeah,
this is This is a big conversation right now, and
it's changed so much since I started being Fanish in
the fans space, so there's a lot to go over

(01:11):
in a lot of history. This might be a two parter.
I don't think it will be, but who knows. We'll see,
We'll see.

Speaker 2 (01:16):
You always have like I feel like you and I
have both are like, it's not going to be that long,
and it ends up being either the full amount and
then some and especially for those AH are like maybe well,
but then again, we've also had those moments it's like
this is gonna be really long and then it ends
up being not not yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
Yes. So it's hard to say because I do have
a lot of thoughts about this, and I'm actually going
to put my thoughts at the end of this episode
slash episodes. But I'm built they'll be throughout. I'm sure.
I just have a lot of opinions. Also, very brief
spoilers for Good Omens season two, very vague and at

(01:55):
the end, and I'll give a heads up, but uh,
big part of the conversation right now, shall I say?

Speaker 2 (02:02):
My TikTok is full of Michael and David like doing
their little parody shows is the entire thing. And I
guess because Good Omens Too had come out, there's more
like ads and I'm like, why I don't even know them.
That will help, but they are really funny.

Speaker 1 (02:18):
It also could be that you sent me one.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I did well because I had been getting them in
my feet. I was like, why am I getting so
much of this content? And then when I asked, dude,
you were like, no, I haven't seen because they did
the whole Zoom Show web series I believe with the
director from Good Omens, and I was like, have you
not seen this? Well, you definitely have to because it's
right up your rally and I've never seen good Omens either.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
I do love Good Omens. Oh well, getting into so
today we are talking about shipping, but I guess that
we should start with a definition for people who might
not know what is shipping.

Speaker 2 (02:58):
Yes, and I love that this is from Urban Dayctionary
because we do talk about a lot of like fanfic
words from Urban Dictionary, don't we So it is from
Urban Dictionary. The act of one wanting supporting two individuals
involved in a romantic relationship a verb used to describe
the action of wishing for two people to enter a relationship,

(03:19):
whether romantic or occasionally platonic, in books, movies, TV shows,
or real life. Shipping can often happen involuntarily, and it
is the majority of what happens on the website Tumblr,
really Tumbler. There are some very popular ships, some unpopular,

(03:40):
as well as often lots of controversy between ships from
the same fando.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
I would also say that it can include two or
more individuals. It says two people. It can be it
can be more poly cool. But yeah, that's that's pretty
that's pretty good. Uh, that's where the name come s from.
Relationshipping shipping.

Speaker 2 (04:02):
Yeah, and you know what with people who are not
a part of the fanfic world, because I've noticed this
as I'm on like a lot of the K pop
yep tiktoks that when they do the shipping, I get
very confused thinking it's real because they do this like
montage and I'm like, wait, are they is this true?
I'm very confused, and I think it take it as
a reality because when they do that with real people,

(04:25):
very I'm very confused about what just happened.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
Essentially, Oh yes, oh my gosh, I'm glad you brought
that up actually, because I'm not even going to talk
about in here, but that is something people do, like
we'll make videos, will make this content that you're like,
wait what.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
And then they'll do like rumored things on there that
I'm like, what did that happen? Did that really happen?
Where they're like the main of course, the ones that
I've seen the most of has been like Stray Kids
and of course BTS. But the BTS one has kind
of wavered down, and the stray Kads have a lot
more content because of it, Like they're very affectionate kids

(05:03):
with each other. Like I'm not sure if they are.
If they are together, wonderful, But I'm like, y'all are
confusing me as a person who has no idea what's
happening in this shipping fanfic world. And then you put
two real people and then put this like glossy montage
of them that I'm like, did that really happen? Is
that a thing?

Speaker 1 (05:23):
Oh? Yes, it's a whole it's a whole world.

Speaker 2 (05:27):
So confused then, And I would assume that because they
are idols of swords, that the people the fans would
not want them to be together since they're in love
with them. I thought or like they had a you know,
like a but apparently it really is a thing, a
big thing that they want them to be together.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
I have a lot of thoughts about this, actually, oh,
because I think and it's understandable. People get weirded out
when people ship real people, and trust me, as we've
discussed several times on the show, there are problems with that,
especially when you start hating on a real life person right.

(06:05):
But I also think that a lot of times when
people ship real life people or when they write fanfic
about real life people, that's it's not a it's not
someone you know, it's not somebody you've ever met. So
it is almost like a fictional character in that way,
and usually one person and we actually are going to

(06:27):
talk about this, but there's like a stand in for
the person you think you're like and stand in for
the person you want to be with. Right.

Speaker 2 (06:35):
I feel like you've mentioned that before in our fanfic episodes,
But like I found that interesting because it actually has
damaged some people's reputations because in things like South Korea
Asian countries, which is very like homophobic countries, when they
did that, there would be rumors throlling about and then
like papers that would be coming out be like no,

(06:56):
that's not true, and having to like separate people so
even if they're a really good friends and they can't
be around each other because of these like made up
stories about real people. So I'm like, oh, that's sad,
but that's an odd it's such an odd phenomenon when
you see fanfic like that go like overlapping real life.

Speaker 1 (07:20):
It is interesting I. I know I've said it before,
but I've I've read some fan fiction about myself and
I was like, oh, cool.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
That's supposed to be that's closing. Wait do you have
a ship? Is there a ship for you and Lauren?

Speaker 1 (07:33):
There's been a ship between me and Lauren, There's been
a ship between me and Bridge it. I haven't checked
since you came on. I don't know, but.

Speaker 2 (07:40):
Oh, I didn't think.

Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 2 (07:46):
I mean, I guess that makes sense, especially if it's
about you. And I'm like, huh, would I be in
that one? Would I be the like, the unapproachable one,
because this isn't that how I go. It is the
hard that's one that gets hard, that's hard, that has
to stop it up for one person.

Speaker 1 (08:04):
Uh kind of, And I swear we actually are going
to talk about this. And I didn't know about this,
but I was like, oh my god. There's usually I'm
usually like the shy, embarrassed yes. And then everyone else
that I've been shipped with is like come to this
bar with.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Me, oh dear, which would be hilarious and very fictional,
because I'm the one like I'm not going to a
bar my house and hang out.

Speaker 1 (08:34):
But that's kind of my point is that there's like
this understanding of that's funny this flash, these flashes we
get of people online, or how we understand them to be.
So it does feel kind of fictional. Like when I
read something like that, I'm like, oh, no, it's not.

Speaker 2 (08:48):
It was obviously not me, but but you like.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
I was like, oh, go to that bar.

Speaker 2 (08:58):
That bar, touch our hot fingers lightly at each other's.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
Drinks so furiously, Oh my gosh, and turn around. Maybe
this will be a two part and we haven't even
gotten a segad definition.

Speaker 2 (09:14):
Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. It's so good to get
into before we start. So let's jump into the second
part of the definition.

Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yes, yes, so this is from fan lore Wiki. Shipping
and fandom is the act of supporting our wishing for
a particular romantic relationship that is a het different sex
slash male slash male, fem slash female female, or polly
through your more characters ship by discussing it, writing meta

(09:41):
about it, or creating other types of fan works exploring it.
Fans who have and promote favorite ships are called shippers.
They might assert that the relationship does exist or will exist.
In Cannon that they would like it to exist are
simply that they enjoy imagining it. Shippers who support multiple
ships within a single canon are often referred to as

(10:02):
multi shippers, especially if they support those ships equally. The
relationships that fans promote or wish for are not all happy,
fluffy bunny ones. Fans also enjoy enemy slash and wrong shipping.
We're going to talk about that more later, but yeah.

Speaker 2 (10:19):
I'm sorry, I'm just so old, but wrong ship. It
was like, like, as I know, you send it to the
wrong address.

Speaker 1 (10:25):
I've seen reactions like that, so I don't think you're alone.
It has got a lot more mainstream though we're going
to talk about. Some shippers support relationships that are portrayed
or acknowledged as established in canon. Some shippers like relationships
that exist only as subtext, whether intentional or accidental itself
a topic of debate, and some prefer relationships where the

(10:48):
characters have no subtext discernible to non shippers. Some fans
ship characters who never even appear in Cannon together later
I'll talk about that. It is important to note that
some percentage of fans actively do not want their ship
to become canon especially wrong shippers and fans who don't
trust the shows and writers to do it right. Shippers

(11:12):
have been known to regret it when their wish came true.
There's a very famous example of that that we'll talk about.
And yes, okay, so I didn't know about this, but
when I read it, I was like, oh, obviously there's
also anti shippers are no romos no romance?

Speaker 2 (11:28):
Why does that sound like an insult? I don't like.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
That who actively don't want romance between characters. They can
be just as passionate as shippers in their fight against
a ship. And some of the earliest online no romos
feel that they lost when Moulder and Scully's relationship became canon,

(11:53):
because if you haven't seen X files, that's actually where
shipping the term first showed up. They did. Moulder and
Scully did eventually get together, and.

Speaker 2 (12:05):
So was that always the plan? Though?

Speaker 1 (12:08):
Oh I don't think so. But yeah. They often say
that they want to believe that relationships can be platonic.
Gonna break that down later too. There's a lot to
break down in this.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
I think this is gonna be a two part I.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
We'll see this is fun, we'll all find out together.
It is something fandoms love to fight over, and sometimes
in a healthy way and sometimes in a very very
very unhealthy way, but it is often something people bond
over too.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (12:39):
The ship typically has a name, and sometimes one of
the first questions fans will ask each other when that
Dido song came out, I will go down with this ship.
That became a very popular meme, especially because David Borianus
was in that music video and Angel Buffy Spike Shipping.

Speaker 2 (12:59):
War, which has a hall a lot of shipping, I'm
sure because also Willow has her own little m she.

Speaker 1 (13:05):
Does she does Buffy the Vampire Slayer is big in
this conversation, so you can look forward to that too.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
It's supernatural too. Yes, I think that's the first notification
of me knowing about shipping was of course Dusty l
But I was.

Speaker 1 (13:24):
Like, what is that? Oh yeah, yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (13:28):
I feel like that's my theme phrase. What exactly?

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Yes, I think so as Dragon Con approaches. I think
this will come out after Dragon Con. But one of
the first questions I would get sometimes from people when

(13:55):
I was dressed is the Winter Soldier would be are
you stucky or are you whatever the name is for
the Black Widow and Bucky ship which I can't remember
and ship yes.

Speaker 2 (14:09):
Really, oh yes, I would have thought more Falcon and Bucky.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
Well, I think after the show came out, because I
remember watching that being like, you guys are really leaning
into this sexual tension here, and a lot of people
texted me and were like, is this what you're talking
about with fan fiction? I was like, yeah, but I
hadn't at that point. I wasn't dressing as the Winner
Soldier anymore so much, but yeah, it's just funny to

(14:34):
me that people come up and that was what they
want to know is who ship?

Speaker 2 (14:37):
Interesting?

Speaker 1 (14:40):
And Okay, apparently the ship name for Catnus and Peta
from The Hunger Games is Penis.

Speaker 2 (14:47):
What did you gotta do? Like that?

Speaker 1 (14:48):
That's so true?

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Why made up by people who did not want Peta
and Catinus to get together? They wanted was his name?
That is what I could so good at not knowing
any characters. I love that I sell like so old
and outdated because I can't remember a damn character.

Speaker 1 (15:08):
And the funny thing is, you're so much better than
me at actors names. Yeah, I get so much better
at character. I can't remember the character. I know the act.
We were fitting together though.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
This is this is why we are Okay, this is
a ship that I just finished the entire time, or
that you finished mine.

Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's it kind of. I translate for you, you translate
for me.

Speaker 2 (15:30):
It's beautiful.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
I don't know if they pronounce it penis, but it's
pronounced Peter and Catness, so I feel like it's penis.
Somebody let me in, right and let me.

Speaker 2 (15:40):
So the Gillness is the one that made this. Yeah,
ship name, I think Okay, Penis.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
I hope that's true. That is very funny. Steve Rogers
and Tony Stark is Stony. I found this whole like
chart of the names and I was laughing so hard
it was great. That's pretty good Stony. I mean, come on.
People do get really excited about the smallest things when

(16:09):
they ship something or ship someone, and it'll be like, oh,
did you see that, Look you've seen me do this. Yes,
they're in love your honor. Oh. People will write essays
affording their theory. They write fan fiction, they make fan art,
they'll make predictions. They get invested. There are websites dedicated

(16:29):
to ships. There are websites dedicated to like anti ships.
People you don't want to go together. There are tumbler communities,
there are discords. That's one of my favorite tags and
fan fiction was whatever ship discord made me do it?
So yeah, people are into it. And also, yes, the
sex and subtext is a big joke, which they hit

(16:50):
they had on Supernatural they did. Oh, but that's basically
implying like you're kind of reading into the meta of
the whole thing. In my experience, in the fictional shipping world,
not celebrities, people largely ship two men. They're often two

(17:10):
white men, and often interviews the celebrities who play these characters.
Those interviews are used for evidence too, and they are
often asked who they ship.

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Uh well, I did find it interesting that when it's
just shipping, it means two men automatically instead of just
two people, instead of and then having to be like
fimship And I was like, oh wait they had to
add that. Well that's interesting.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Well actually, okay, so I just got welled. Actually yeah
you did, Yeah you did. No, No, you're right, you're right.
But I didn't realize this. Once you account for non
fan fix specific fans bases, there are a lot more
hetero ships, so slash is a very fan fiction name.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Slash, not ship. Sorry.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, yeah, So Slash is very from fan fiction, and
I we've talked about the history of it before and
then fem slash comes from that. And I actually read
a really fascinating like nineteen ninety three what were those
called bulletin board you know, those like online bulletin boards faces. Anyway,

(18:22):
it was like a little short thing where someone was
saying she was making the point that people who were
so supportive of Slash weren't supportive of them Slash, and
it was really fascinating because she was like, I can
see you only support this one type of thing and
not this other thing, like that really upsets you, but

(18:43):
this doesn't. It was cool. It was cool.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
That's interesting. I don't know, Like, again, I'm not in
part of this, but I'm very into the K drama world,
and in that same scope, they really love the bl
which we've talked about in the K drama episodes or
any typically any Asian episodes, which is like the title is,
it's not what it sounds like because in the US
we're like, what does that boy love? But essentially like
meant two men together, and that's kind of the entire

(19:09):
it's a whole genre, and they there's so much of
that way more than there's about two women, which I
thought was odd, but again, the people who are eating
up this content are typically women.

Speaker 1 (19:21):
Mm hmm, yep, yep. You can see our fan fiction
episode for that. I think I also did one on
specifically on slash. But there's a lot of theories where
that is. There's actually like research papers and books about
It's interesting.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
Is it carries over just like romances especially.

Speaker 1 (19:41):
I did find many articles that reported how queer fan
fiction helps people come out realize they were queer, and
so this is a big part of like when you
start shipping and you're like, oh, this is queer relationship,
I'm shipping this, and then people be like, wait a minute,
let me think about this a bit more. Which speaking
of yeah, wow, this term is relatively recent. It was

(20:02):
first she used in nineteen ninety three in regards to
exiles fandom, which was my oh maybe I'm queer moment.
People have been doing this forever. I found really fun
examples from like Jane Austen, like Sherlock Holmes way back,
like it's really fascinating. However, the Internet and social media
really allowed for these ship communities to grow, for people

(20:25):
to find each other, but it also allowed for bad
behavior to be amplified and it has led to a
lot of Internet abuse. And interestingly, in the early days,
shipping was mocked and looked down upon. Sometimes it was
even viewed as you saying, like something that you're all
enjoying is not perfect. Heaven forbid, Like you're not a

(20:46):
real fan because you're like wanting more. Maybe you're being weird.
And people who shipped would get email attacks or harassed.
But now it's definitely gone mainstream, and with that we
have a lot of issues and it's just funny to
me and looking back at this where I'm like, now
it's just you don't ship who I want you to ship,

(21:10):
gets say, the attacks and the harassment. But back then,
apparently people who ship forgetting that strange.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
You've come a long way, baby.

Speaker 1 (21:21):
Yes, yes we have. But that brings us to shipping wars,
which is one of the biggest issues.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
That's so literal. I'm like, you a ups shipping wars.

Speaker 1 (21:37):
We should have had you do like your version of
what you thought this was, what this was, and compared it.
It would have been great. So from teen Vogue and
where they're shipping. There are ship wars aggressive in community
beefs between fandom factions that focus on different ships the

(22:00):
same piece of media or fandom. Ship wars have a
rich history of stirring up heightened emotion. Back when Buffy
the Vampire Slayer dominated online fandom, one of the biggest
ship wars in fandom history revolved around Buffy's relationships with
two of the hottest and most toxic vampires this side
of the Vampire Diaries Extended Universe, Spike an Angel. Yes,

(22:22):
more on that in a second. Oh my gosh, I
did see Final Fantasy seven. I've talked about it on
a hear before, But the whole thing in that game
was based on decisions you made. You would end up
with one of like four people, but really two people,
Tifa and Earth, and people would pick sides like, obviously

(22:45):
he should have gone with Earth. Obviously he should have
gone with Tifa, and that was kind of programmed into
the game. That was like, there was this whole thing
where Earth died spoilers, but that game's really old, and
there was this both if you were nicer to her,
if you did all these things, if you were in
a romantic relationship she would live, which she wouldn't, but

(23:07):
there was a belief so that she would. So people
really pick sides. Another big one is Team Edward versus
Team Jacob from Why Yes And then I totally forgot
about this, but when I read about it, I was like,
oh my gosh, Yes, the Harmony Wars, the Harmonians. People
were so pissed, Samantha, Oh my gosh. There was a

(23:29):
whole live journal about killing off Ron Weasley in as
many ways as possible, because essentially this was people who
thought Harry and Hermione should be together.

Speaker 2 (23:37):
Right, I mean people really hated on Jenny. You really
hated Onny Oh, yes, poor actress.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Yes. So this was before a lot of this was happening,
as people were going online more. Harry Potter is still
one of the biggest fan communities fan fiction communities that exist.
And there was this big break between the Goblet of
Fire and Order of Phoenix and before that, like so

(24:07):
no one knew who was going to end up with whom,
but people had all this time to speculate. So there
was the Harmonians. The I think it was called the
USS Harmoniums. So it's like a ship anyway. So they
were like really adamant that this was how it was
going to go, And then JK. Rowling said in an interview, Oh, no,

(24:28):
it's definitely not that. And one of the interviewers said
harmoniums were delusional and there's kind of laughter and all
the stuff. JK. Rolling backtracked about it. She didn't attach
herself to the word delusional, but was also kind of like, yeah,
but she did say she thought she had dropped these

(24:51):
huge hints and that it was obvious who was going
to end up with whom from Claire McBride over at
sci Fi Wire, but even early the tension between these
two factions ran hot. Sugar Quill, one of the first
Harry Potter specific FICK archives, refused to accept Harry Hermione
fan fiction on the grounds that it was not cannon compliant. Interestingly,

(25:13):
they accepted remiss Serious Fick as canon compliant because you
know it was, which may have contributed to the opening
of Fiction Alley, which pointedly accepted all ships. Ship specific
fan sites and communities became the norm, allowing the factions
to more or less peaceably coexist, although the occasional battles
still happened up until this point. They trusted that they

(25:37):
were correctly reading Rolling's larger plan, and that they were
the only ones doing so. They were heavily invested in
not only the veracity of their ship, but the morality
of it, valuing a relationship built on friendship over what
they saw as a relationship built on conflicts, among many
other values they assigned to their ship. Because they'd invested

(25:58):
so heavily in this one ship, to the detriment of
making wider connections in fandom and developing a diverse interest
in the series, Rolling's revelation threatened to invalidate not only
their ship but their fandom, so they turned their ire
on her. Harmonians began to openly insult Rolling, calling into
question her talent as a writer, denigrating her for being divorced,

(26:21):
and even insulting her personal appearance. One post even indulges
in some pearl clutching, wondering if the moral of ron
slash Hermione is really one she wants to pass down
to her daughters. The ship meant more to them than
the fandom did. This is the moment that birthed zero
sum shipping, a kind of blind game in ship that

(26:43):
only values as ship for whether or not it wins,
not whether or not it is enjoyable. End of note.
This was pre Twitter, so this could have been a
lot worse.

Speaker 2 (26:56):
The battle.

Speaker 1 (26:57):
Yeah, but it was funny because my mom had opinion
on this. She obviously wasn't like Duke Naos, but she
thought it should have been her in her whining that.
I remember being like, oh, I don't.

Speaker 2 (27:09):
Know if I ever had an opinion on it, but
it was like, yeah, it doesn't make as much sense,
but I get it. Like the side characters, he has
his own trauma he doesn't really need. I think that
was part, like he doesn't need a romance right now,
he's cut too much on his plate.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And my mom was very it was
she was very blessed about it. But it was just
funny because like normally she wouldn't even care have a
thought about it, but she did say that. I was like,
oh yeah, but that kind of that morality that that
writer mentioned is a key point of this, because there's
this whole idea of like, my ship is better than yours, right, because,

(27:48):
as I said, chips are not new. They've been around
since we've been telling stories and could have opinions, but
they have evolved. It used to be and still is largely,
I would say, a fun thing. There are plenty, plenty
the majority of people who can ship without being absolutely awful,

(28:09):
but it's gotten way more intense as where we are
all online and now when someone believes they found the
OTP the one true pairing, they think they are right,
you are wrong, and it gets heated and outright hateful.
Jamie described it as almost a religion. A part of
this is that you've interpreted the media in question correctly,

(28:32):
that there is just one right way, one correct pairing,
and if that's not if they don't agree with someone,
then they will shame people, harass people, shun people, docs
people to swap people, even threatened creators.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
How old are the ranges for people who are active
on those kind of boards.

Speaker 1 (28:56):
I mean, I think it depends on the specific site,
because I know we talked about this before. If fan
fiction is like my forte, so that's what I know
off the HEP my head, but like wpad is for
younger folks, there's another one that more younger people use.
And then AO three and fanfic dot net are like
older folks, And by that I mean I don't know,

(29:19):
like my age.

Speaker 2 (29:21):
Like what's the older mean?

Speaker 1 (29:23):
I mean it could go it's I think they're much
more like I would say twenty five to forty, which
is okay. I think there's more outliers on that than
there aren't. Wpad I could be wrong, which I feel
is much younger. Right.

Speaker 2 (29:39):
I just wondered, because you know, A that's a lot
of time and effort to go after and debate with people.
I knows people do that, like does it for any
all subjects, But I find that interesting for fictional characters,
that level of love and passion, like you have to
have some time and dedication for that.

Speaker 1 (29:58):
That's kind of part of the issue. It doesn't have
to be an issue, but part of it is if
it becomes like a consumed right all of your time,
and someone's telling you in your mind you're wrong, but
you've spent all this time on it, You've like looked
for all the clues, You've done all this digging and research,

(30:19):
and so it's like you don't get it.

Speaker 2 (30:26):
I mean, I've seen you watch Star Wars and you're
telling me your theories and me just going really and
you go, wait, no, but this evidence.

Speaker 1 (30:32):
Well, see, the funny thing is I'm a multi shipper,
which is yes, I have a lot of ships, and
so I can be like I can take evidence and
make my case for one couple, and then that same
evidence I'll be like, disregard this couple though, which I
think is a good way to be.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
So many times I heard do you see that stay
or do you see that look?

Speaker 1 (30:55):
Don't know?

Speaker 2 (30:55):
No, you can't tell me.

Speaker 1 (30:57):
People have written it about that look dat. I won't
look at it. I'm not kidding people know.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
I'm sure I can. I can picture. I picture it
the moment you say it. I know what scene I'm
talking about, because you've done it every time. Yep, every time.

Speaker 1 (31:13):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
The dedication to that, I'm like, oh yeah, that's a look.

Speaker 1 (31:18):
It's a lot, but that's what it is. And that's
like the fun part of it. Like when you can
just be like yeah and then you don't mind if
someone does it agree with you.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
There was no disagreement. I was just the nod. You
get the nod from me like oh okay, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Now don't derail me because now I just want to
talk to that.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
I have had look that you're having it like contemplating
do I go down this road.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
I've had more than one friend say I didn't see
it before, but now I see it.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
That's right, okay.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
But speaking of from that same article from sci Fi,
what was once the love of two characters dynamic has
become to a small but outspoken subsection of fans a
zero sum game. How did we get from God, I
love seeing these two together to these two need to
be together, So help me God? And this quote is

(32:26):
going back to that teen Vogue article, which I really recommend.
I've been a part of several ship wars, never an
active participant, really, just a member of ships that are
fought over, and I think it all comes down to
wanting to feel right. Fandom, especially fanfic, is all about
participating in and taking ownership of the material. Colleen, a
pop culture nerd and scholar who made it through the

(32:46):
Vultron fandom, shares with teen Vogue. Ship wars are caused
by people wanting their ship to be the number one,
correct ship, the only one, and even if it's not canon,
it's the one. So you see things like Katong versus Zutara,
where on the one hand, you have people arguing their
ship is better because it's canon and it's sweet, and

(33:07):
on the other hand arguing for tension and character development.
In that case, it's a matter of preference and power.
Each ship slash fandom wants to be in charge. Yes,
I think that's really interesting because we are going to
discuss this more. But that whole like you go to
fan fiction because you can't find the relationship you want

(33:29):
in canon or maybe they don't do it, and then
what happens when it does become canon. But essentially what
most of what I read is it comes down to
this is the quote unquote healthier relationship versus the quote
unquote unhealthier relationship, which is a for you know, debate.
But yes, creators and celebrities get this abuse too, even

(33:54):
extending to real life relationships of celebrities. That's something we've
talked about before. Some creators have been black mailed in
an attempt to force a ship and make it cannon.
Some have been forced off social media, and it gets nasty,
like people will tear people up who support the opposing ship.
Nay will claim that there's is the least problematic ship

(34:16):
while pointing out the problematic parts of the opposing ships
and people who ship them, Like it becomes like, well,
if you like this ship, then that means you're messed
up in this way. You're appear to slash goody two
shoes or you're actually a criminal. Then there is the
hate that is heaped onto the characters, as you mentioned
with Jenny Weasley. Perhaps yeah, usually the cannon ship often

(34:42):
a woman who ruined your ship, and the person who
created them or played them, people who did ship with
these toxic fans. So if you're like shipping a ship
and then all these toxic fans come in, sometimes you
get forced that shit because you're like, well, right, he
ruined it. Sometimes the creators make it worse with their

(35:09):
comments making fun of a ship or being queer baby.
Often they have no idea how much fandom is behind
a ship. I would say not always, but I feel
like a lot of the examples I wrote, I was like,
why did you say that? Which is a points to

(35:30):
an interesting disconnect between creators and their fans. MCU story
editor Matthew Schancey, who's responsible for the what if Zombie episode,
which is that like Marvel, Kay Alternate Realities animated series,
reportedly wanted Zombie Captain America to bite off Sharon's lips
and spit them out because quote, no one likes her.

(35:53):
Actually he belongs to Peggy, which he might have been joking.
Maybe not, but it does fuel these fights in his hate.
Perhaps he did it intentionally, Perhaps he did it, I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
My only problem with that whole storyline was, wait, couldn't
he beat her grandfather now, a great uncle now or something?
This whole timeline thing, I'm like, this doesn't this doesn't
bode well.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
I would say, I don't think the MCU has done
a romance very well. Yes, I know some people disagree
with me, but I don't think so.

Speaker 2 (36:32):
I'm trying to think of a good wood.

Speaker 1 (36:34):
I think a lot of people would say like WandaVision,
but I actually don't think so.

Speaker 2 (36:39):
They worked together and then she fell alone with a
make belief thing.

Speaker 1 (36:43):
Yeah yeah, And that was my biggest hang up with
that show was is I was like, I just don't
buy your relationship because you just suddenly told me you
were dating and then he died.

Speaker 2 (36:54):
And it's also forced anyway from the Yeah maybe, oh,
I'm I gonna get hey for that.

Speaker 1 (36:58):
It did did, but almost all the relationships in the
MCU felt very forced. Yeah, but anywhere anyway, we're gonna
get the right. There are even conspiracy theories that for

(37:22):
one reason or another something is cannon, but the creators
cannot admit it like it is canon. They just can't
say it's candon a lot and this used to be
a big thing in fan fiction, which is kind of
a lot of people brought up. Has kind of gone
by the wayside. But it used to be like, oh,
there was a certain tag for it, but it was like,

(37:46):
you know, uh, we were playing in our sandbox. Whatever
they do, that's the thing that we're playing in our sandbox,
whereas now it's become it's crossed the line into oh,
let's yell at them online. But it used to be
much more like, Nope, that's that's the powers that be.
That's what it was, the powers that be. You you,

(38:06):
that's what they've decided and that's how it is. But
I'm going to play in this sandbox. But now it's
become like it has to be can and which is
part of this issue. Also, yes, we have talked about
celebrity shipping, which is essentially yeah, you just two real

(38:26):
people are more than to real people. Again, but that
usually like the unhealthy side of that is definitely that
it has real world impacts. That impacts usually like the
celebrities new partner again is often a woman, and this
has resulted in people being forced off social media, celebrities

(38:47):
having to release statements asking for people to essentially not
harass their partner or their ex like post about mental
health and all of this. So that's definitely definitely. And then,
as Jamie said in the original suggestion for this, there
are some ships that are truly problematic. And from what

(39:12):
I've reads, as mentioned, a lot of shipboards do boil
down to should person a who is torn between two
people go with the bad boy type or the good
guide type. And this is not It doesn't mean that
the good guys without problems. But I found out this
is known as Sinemon rule ships versus trash ships.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
And I was like, oh, yes, trash ships.

Speaker 1 (39:35):
Huh trash ships? So from here's a quote about that
from Vox. For instance, a ship like Kylux Kylo Brinn
and the minor character Hucks and the Force Awakens might
be labeled a trash ship because it's seen as a
representation of fandom's heavily white status quo your average ubiquitous
white dude slash pairing and a ship like Ika Body

(39:58):
That's fun name too, Nikabod Crane slash Abbey Mills on
Sleepy Hollow might be seen as a semin roll ship,
both because of the puereness of their love and because
one of its members is a woman of color. Again,
this is this being fandom. These issues are very layered, controversial,
and complicated. So essentially, a trash ship is like a
ship you ship even though you know it's bad, you

(40:21):
know it's problematic, you know it's toxic.

Speaker 2 (40:23):
So would be would this be the Buffy and Yes name?

Speaker 1 (40:29):
Oh yes, Buffy and Bike. Yes, yes, I'm gonna talk
about that more in a second of so excited you
bought that?

Speaker 2 (40:34):
Yes? Yes.

Speaker 1 (40:36):
I did see some recent articles about multi shippers who
ship toxic, problematic ships and healthy, wholesome ones, and they
were saying, like, it's not mutually exclusive. Sometimes you're all happen.
Sometimes it just happens. It really does. Should people have like,
how did this happen? I never would have guessed. But

(40:59):
there are are also shippers for abusive relationships, for non
consensual slash manipulaty of controlling relationships, underage relationships with massive
age differences, incest, which is kind of complicated in terms
of fanfic because oh yeah, I don't really I don't

(41:21):
read it, but I think a lot of times there's
an understanding that we all know they aren't actually related.
Plus things like Game of Thrones, like I don't know.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Because that's the thing about super naturals, the brothers. What
are you doing.

Speaker 1 (41:36):
Wincest yep, oh, one day, I'll come back to that,
And I'll also come back to ABO, which I've talked
about before. We talked about it in our dot com
episode Best stands for Alpha Beta Omega, and it's kind
of like a secondary gender political biological type of writing

(42:05):
and relationship, and those are often very toxic, but they
also are interesting in how they explore gender politics. I
have a lot of thoughts about that as well, but
we won't go into them now because that would be
a whole episode. But there's a lot of shipping in
that realm that's pretty pretty problematic. Yeah, then, as mentioned earlier,

(42:34):
wrong shipping.

Speaker 2 (42:37):
I'm just laughing about so many things right now.

Speaker 1 (42:40):
Yes, So back to that fan lore wiki article. When
a fan ships two characters who really shouldn't be together,
they are wrong shipping. Wrong shipping isn't a judgment made
about a fan of shipping preferences, but the recognition that
the characters in question would be a hot mess together.
Wrong shipping can also be used when the fan is
in support of a pairing other than the cannon of TP.

(43:03):
So this is sort of like, yeah, they won't gotcha.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
So I'm gonna assume from now on, I'm on, I'm
not on this, which I assume from the beginning, which
you were like you got some parts, I was like.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
Why, well, I put a minute in it.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
I was just like, well, because I like me saying
that would be so out of context. I have no
idea why I'm saying this. I got it, So I'm
just I'm just gonna go with that. So I'm like, yeah,
I have no idea what that just happened.

Speaker 1 (43:32):
That's that's what it's like when you get in the
world of shipping, some man, you get lost lost in
the shipping, and then related that at the top, I
mentioned like antis non romos, no romos. Actually this is
sort of different because there's a difference between people who

(43:55):
don't want any ship, like maybe they just don't want romance,
versus people who actively don't want a certain ship, and
they have gotten in on this toxicity too. And I
found this quote from geek Dad. The most aggressive of
the bunch is a new subset of shippers, collectively known
as ANTIS, from the practice of tacking things anti ship

(44:17):
name on social media. It's a term these toxic members
of fandom. We're proudly despite its association with combative behavior,
ANTIS appear to be a response to, among other factors,
changes in how fans interact online. As fans move from
sites like live journal where content was opt in, to Tumblr,
where content is opped out, the method in which fans

(44:39):
consumed content changed thanks to ANTIS. The old adage of
early fandom don't like, don't read yep or the idea
that consumers are responsible for avoiding content they don't like,
has been replaced with discourse, death threats, and violence. Discussions
shifted from I don't like this too, no one should

(45:01):
like this. This often involves moral arguments. It's sort of
devolved into I can morally prove you're a terrible person
for this ship to destroy it. I thought that was
so interesting because we've talked before. I love the history
of how those technologies impact right our discourse, and in

(45:22):
this case, I didn't know that that's really cool. I
mean not cool, but like I'm glad to know it.
You can on a three, you can be like I
don't want this ship to show up, but it doesn't
like populate like how Tumblr it would be like you
find all of this stuff that's like I hate this ship.
It's more like than that ship just won't show up. Yeah,

(45:46):
the quote goes on. Anti arguments may shift over time,
but the critical thing to note is one competing popular
pairings pairings that share characters with the anti favored pairing
are always problematic, and two, the anti preferred pairing is
never problematic. If you take nothing else from this article,
please take this All. This outrage isn't about protecting children,

(46:09):
or about morality or about critiquing media. It's about people
wanting their favorite characters to kiss. It's true. It's so true, though,
because it is, it gets real nasty the things people
will say about like why your ship is awful? But
really it does come down to really just one of

(46:30):
these these people kiss.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
It kind of reminds me of the thirty Rock episode
in which the daughter of the owner of the company
it just really likes soap operas, and she's because the ship.
There was a whole ship with Tina's face character and
Alec Paula's character. Again, I don't remember the character's names,
any of their characters. And then and then so like

(46:52):
they played up going kiss kiss kiss, and they're like, Nope,
forge't doing this because I chatted it, but like we
know there actually was a shipping for doing them to
be together for a while, which is a.

Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, well, it's funny. One of the stories I'm reading
right now, the author left a you can read the
notes at the ends, and they just wrote make it
like smashing their faces together like two barbies, And I
was like, I mean, essentially, the quot continues. Despite all

(47:29):
of this negativity, I believe fandom is an incredibly positive thing.
I'm gay and the first time I ever saw a
gay character and a story was in fan fiction. Fan
Fiction gave me stories about people like me when I
couldn't find them anywhere else. That is the power of
transformative media like fanfic and fan art in a world
where so many people don't get to see themselves on TV.
Fandom can offer them a place where they can be

(47:50):
the hero of the story they know and love. Fantom
enables anyone to create with an established world. It enables
writers to create stories that go beyond the canon media
and give artists the power to explore new scenes and
what ifs. There are thousands of people right now creating
this content for free simply because they enjoy it, and

(48:11):
I do think that's I always try to make this
point because there's critiquing media is healthy. We all like
problematic things, but there's a way to do that healthily.
There's a way to do that without threatening people or
yelling at people for asking people. And it's funny to
me the ways technology like this all started as sort

(48:34):
of an attempt to better control content searches on Tumblr.
So when they were like you can put in this
anti whatever tag, it was they were trying to clamp
down on like bad behavior, honestly, but then it led
to this. So that's just interesting to me. And also

(48:57):
back to what you were saying, when it becomes a
part of your identity and then that it becomes so
personal and it just you can't see anything else like
this is it has to be this way because it's
so important to me. Another thing that Jamie brought up

(49:21):
was this sort of forcing of romance, or this prioritizing
of romance. And I talked about this recently because yes,
I have been posting fan fiction, and but there is

(49:43):
this I found myself writing romance, and I actually it's
like really sweet romance, which I think makes sense. It's
much more like holding hands type of romance and anything else.
But but I did get in my head about like
it just feels so much of what I read that romance,

(50:04):
romantic love is seen as more powerful love, like the
most powerful love as compared to friendship. And so it
can be strange when you're reading all this stuff like that,
you're writing stuff like that and you're asexual, you know,
Like I have found, especially within the past couple of years,

(50:29):
a lot more depictions of asexual characters and even asexual
romances where you know, they have the talk and they're like, yeah,
just like kissing but nothing more, and they're like, okay, cool.
And I have seen more non sexual relationships, but a
lot of times that's what it is, like a good
amount of times, like maybe not the whole thing but

(50:52):
it's in there somewhere. And as we've discussed before, there's
also that strange tight rope of for so long women
have been shamed for wanting sex, and so I'm like, embraces,
embrace it, but also at the same time, it doesn't
have to be that for everybody, So it's sort of
strange there. And I've also been thinking about this too,

(51:16):
of this understanding that everyone sees romance the same way
or they must all want it, which isn't true. And
I think that comes up a lot of times in
shipping wars, because if you're finding like your evidence, not
everybody sees that evidence the same way, you know what
I mean, Like even if like you don't agree, right,
but like some people might see something as romantic and

(51:37):
other people might see it's like not romantic at all. Yeah,
So there's that difference too. And I do think this
is tricky because I've heard before this argument why can't
they just be friends, especially between two men who have
just a close relationship, Why does it have to be romantic?
And I think that it speaks to a couple of things.
The fact that we put men in a box where

(51:59):
they can't be emotionally vulnerable with other men are physically affectionate,
so that's like, look at how they're being so emotionally vulnerable,
they must be in love. And the fact that women
are always through romantic interest in so much of media,
and the fact that we don't have enough queer storylines
in mainstream media, especially front center. So it's sort of like,

(52:21):
as we say so often, we just need more representative,
diverse stories, so we're not always like, it's so desperate
for this queer story though, can't it be them? But
also have platonic relationships. And then there's been arguments about
fetishizing homosexuality in that way too, which is certainly certainly

(52:46):
a part of it. And then this is sort of
a separate issue, but I want to mention it when
the media reports on this, especially fan fiction, they find
the most bizarre fan fiction. I I'm almost always like,
I think you might actually read fan fiction because you
have plumbed the depths, you found something, You've found something,

(53:08):
And I read a lot and I have never seen
this and either make fun of it for celebrities to
read it, or frame it as this depravity of young
girls and make an argument about why we need to
censor things, so that a lot of times with shipping
wars and gets in the news and they're reading fan

(53:29):
fiction and it's like the wildest thing I've ever heard,
and I've read some stuff. Oh and this was about
a specific incident where it was at a convention and

(53:53):
a fan at is a supernatural convention. I think the
fan got up to ask about I don't know, but
everyone thought they were going to ask about shipping. No,
it wasn't that. They later found this fan and it
wasn't that, but that's what everyone thought, and they got
removed by security.

Speaker 2 (54:14):
Even before they could ask the question. M wow.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
Yes, And so here's a quote from hyperbole about that
what is so horrible about slash shipping and asking the
actors about it? Why should asking Aqules about whether Dean
might possibly have feelings for Castiel be more taboo than
asking him about Dean slash Lisa, whether he thinks Dean
should die at the end of the series, or what
his favorite moment filming season eight was. For those who
claim that they've been asked about slash shiping a million

(54:39):
times and that it just makes everyone uncomfortable, this might
be the case, sure, but these guys do like twenty
conventions a year. Do you really think that there's one
single question which you could possibly ask them which they
haven't had to answer at least a dozen times before.
The difference seems to be that some fans believe it
is harassment to force the actors to confront the possibility

(54:59):
that their characters might be homosexual, So singling out slash
shipping or shipping in general, when there is so much
more that might be awkward for the actors to be
confronted with. That is problematic whether you're an actor, a creator,
or a fan. I have to question the logic that
slash shipping is cool as long as we don't talk
about it, don't ask, don't tell really Fantom, which was

(55:20):
a good point. I do hate going to these like
Q and A things because it's always like, what are
they going to ask? But it's true they've heard these
questions like a million times. It's not like an original question.
I went and saw one actor once and he just
was like, I'm not going to do the Q and
A because I hear the same questions all the time,
and he just went down a list of questions and answer.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
I was like, yeah, probably you would know Yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:50):
And then from Vox here's a quote conflating ships that
involve underrepresentative identities with the desire for inclusion gets especially
dicey when it leads fans to priority ties support for
their ship over other intersectional concerns. For example, and teen
Will fandom fans of the Steric ship Derek slash Styles
have frequently accused the show of queer baiting or exploiting

(56:12):
their specific queer male pairing without any intention of following
through on it, even though the show's creator, Jeff Davis,
is a gay man who has already inserted several queer
relationships in the show storylines, and even though Steric as
it currently exists in canon is a physically abusive relationship.
The prioritization of a ship at the expense of another
intersectionality concerns is also present on The one hundred, which

(56:35):
earlier this year featured a queer canonical relationship between main
character Clark and the warrior queen Lexa aka Klexa. Klexa
fans have been so focused on advocating for Klexa even
after the ship effectively ended with Lexa's untimely death, that
they've come under fire for ignoring the many elements of
the show that some feels are racist and problematic. Yeah,

(56:59):
I think that's a it's a really good point as well,
because when you when you're just attacking people who don't
like your ship and you're not thinking of anything else,
it's not a good look. It's not a good look.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:14):
Yeah, As sort of wrap up here, I did mention
I was gonna say my thoughts. So I I do ship,
even though I am an ace ace person, but a
lot of times I ship. I found a really fun
article about the fun of shipping No One someone who's
never gonna end up together. It's kind of nice. You're

(57:36):
kind of like you find your little niche fandom of
all of your your like online friends we will never
meet or talk to, but you're kind of like we're
the ones that, like the ship that we know is
never going to be cannon. We never once thought it
would be like, it's just no chance of it. And
I think there has been a couple of things I've

(57:59):
shipped where people people have gotten upset. They're like, I
can't believe I thought they would end up together. And
sometimes I'm honestly so surprised. I'm like, you really, I
never actually thought this was gonna happen, but you did, eh,
And I get I feel bad. It does suck when
you're like, oh, that didn't go how I wanted it
to go. But also, as we've been talking about, sometimes

(58:21):
fans do regret when their ship happens, like with Buffy
and Spike and you know, like a tempted rape that
happened in their relationship, and sometimes the ship happens and
they break up or they're killed off, Like it's not
like if your ship does become cannon, everything's going to

(58:41):
be the best thing and the happiest thing. And I think,
like going back to like not trusting the creators, I
just have been hurt so hard. It's not that I
don't trust them, but I'm like, yeoh, I'm gonna be
much happier if i just do this in my own
world and it doesn't become right. I don't need your
drum and your studios and fluencing, miss, I just will

(59:03):
go over here and be let be. And sometimes it's
not about that either. It's about what fans believe they
should have gotten. Canon romances are often looked down upon,
and there are people who feel like me and maybe

(59:26):
want a ship to happen, but ultimately don't want that
entertainment in question to really change. So like you don't
want it to become a rom com suddenly, but you
kind of don't want the relationship to happen, but you
have fun imagining it and sharing it with others. And yes,
it can be lonely to ship someone barely anyone else does,
but it can be very fun. Can be very fun.

(59:49):
Here's another quote from teen Vogue. Shipping oriented fandom is
all about transformation for many shippers. The pairings we put
together in fandom are that come together in a series
or on a gossip site, are the first time many
of us get to see ourselves and relationships that echo
the ones we have, whether it's a queer ships as
a gateway to understanding your own identity, or fans of

(01:00:09):
color or highlighting ships that center characters of color. The
goal of shipping has been to fill gaps and provide
room for fans to play with emotional connections from box.
For fans feeling fatigue over an imbattle, struggle to make
a ship cannon, and the crushing disappointment of setbacks or failure,
it might help to remember that ships don't have to
be cannon in order to be transformative and meaningful on

(01:00:30):
both a personal and cultural level. Look at Star Trek's
Kirk slash Spock Sperk. That ship never became cannon, but
it remains one of the most compelling ships ever created,
and within cannon, it gave us one of pop culture's
most enduring symbols of love. There are hands touching through
the glass. Henry Jenkins famously said that queer fan fiction

(01:00:52):
is what happens when you take away the glass. And sure,
it's increasingly possible that savvy creators might go ahead and
take away the glass for us, but that doesn't negate
the power of fans being able to do it on
their own without anyone's help. I love that. It's so funny,
it's so true. That's it. Do you look for the
clues their hands touching to the glass, and then you

(01:01:13):
take away the glass?

Speaker 2 (01:01:15):
Oh, I feel like you having a moment here?

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
I am, I am. And then to close out, I
have this thing I found from more Stand on Tumblr.
And this is a while back. I found like all
of this old archive like Fanish stuff like nineteen ninety
three that I was researching this very cool. I don't
know when it happened, but somewhere along the way, shipping

(01:01:42):
got a new meaning for younger folk that seems to
translate to I want these people together for real asap.
I think the media had something to do with it.
But guys, guys, shipping absolutely does not mean demanding anything
from people slash creators. Shipping isn't about expecting and waiting
for the day it will certainly happen. It is not
a direct translation to happen or die. Shipping means you

(01:02:03):
like the idea of two or more people together. You
like the concepts, you find it fun to imagine, the dynamics,
you even create fan and content of it, thick art edits.
It's all on your head and it's fine that way.
Is it nice to have a ship? Bekund Cannon, Oh
my god, Yes, but that's not what shipping is about.
And y'all need to take a step back and breathe,
because being a jerk to people ain't gonna change their

(01:02:24):
mind about ships. Yep. Yeah, but yeah, I just want
to say, two people, and you know who you are, uh,
who've watched good omens and you're happy. I'm happy for you.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
Vague.

Speaker 1 (01:02:44):
I told you I didn't want to spoilet, but okay, yes,
I mean, like all things we talk about, uh, there's
obviously really bad behavior, but there's really good behavior too,
and a lot of it is that, uh, and it
can be so fun and so beautiful and I love

(01:03:05):
that too. Of like the idea, just because it doesn't
become canon doesn't mean it can't be transformative. So yes,
our shipping episode.

Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Like towards and you just went going faster and faster
trying to make it.

Speaker 1 (01:03:21):
Yeah. Yeah, I also will say I wrote an essay
about this for Jamie that you can find about my
thoughts about shipping. But that's what I have to say
for now. So thank you Jamie for this suggestion. And yeah,
if you would like to contact us if you have

(01:03:42):
any thoughts about this, I'm sure that you do. You
can email us stephanieum om Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at Momstuff podcast, or
on Instagram and TikTok at stuff. One ever told you
we have a tea public store. We also have a
book that you can order. It is available let stuff
You should read books dot com. Thanks as always to
your super producer Christina, our executive producer Maya, and our

(01:04:05):
contributor Joey.

Speaker 2 (01:04:06):
I was gonna say talking about ship, but it wasn't
gonna be right, So thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:11):
And thanks to you for listening. Stefan never told me
his production of My Heart Radio. For more podcasts from
My Heart Radio, you can check out the Art Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or Regulus to your favorite shows