July 24, 2020 • 49 mins
Nintendo's Mario franchise is the largest video game franchise of all time. As ruler of the game's fictional Mushroom Kingdom, Princess Peach (or Toadstool, if you prefer) seemingly spends most of her time getting kidnapped. Anney and Samantha trace the history of Princess Peach and talk about the damsel in distress trope, entitlement and whether or not Princess Peach is secretly a bloodthirsty tyrant.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to stephan
ever told you production of I Heart Radio. So here's
my very important questions to day for you. Samantha. Yeah,
have you played Super Mario or any video game with
(00:29):
Princess Peach? Do? Do? Do? Do? Do do? Let's see,
That's what I think of every time. But of course
I have. Uh. Surprisingly, maybe it's not enough course because
I don't play a lot of video games, but those
who are some of the ones that I did play.
I really love Super Mario three. That was my favorite. Um.
The Giant Land was my favorite land. Oh everything the
(00:50):
Giant was fun. Um. And then also, of course I
played Super Mario Kart and I've had I've played that
a few times. You and I've played. I'm very bad
at it, but I hit my darkness and yet you
comment on it and you move your body. This is
(01:11):
I am absolutely that person that jumps with my controller
at all times. My fingers heard because I'm pressing it
so hard all the time, no matter like ridiculously over
the top. Heart as well as the fact that I
make sure you guys know every mistake I've made on
the game, whether it's been falling off somewhere, whether I've
been hit by something, whether I hit a wall. I
(01:31):
definitely don't know. Oh yeah, it's better that way, right, Yeah,
Oh I love it. Um. Did you have any thoughts
about Princess Peach? Um? I like her fine. Typically, uh,
I always see the toadstool guy because I've never actually
saved the Princess Peach. I don't think on my own.
(01:54):
My brother always did, or someone whoever I play with,
But I always got to the guy and be like,
oh no, she's not here. Yeah, it was really maybe mad. Yeah.
Oh it's a great troope though, you just fail over
and over, I think, so. I mean it's very annoying. Yes,
(02:15):
I do like it when the king doesn't he transform
from something to himself, like because you get the wand
and you touch him and he's no longer a fraud
or something, and he turns back into a king and
then tells you where Princess Peach is. You know, I
don't know. Yeah, I think that's from the original Super Mario.
(02:35):
So okay, I played that along like when I was
four or five. I think I was young. I was
very young. Um. Most of my Mario experience has been
I did love the Super Mario RPG. I think that
was the one with Mallow. That one. I loved UM
(02:56):
and Mario Kart, Mario Party, like all those sort of
friend games that you played with a bunch of people.
I loved those. But I actually haven't played like, UM,
Super Mario two or three, or Paper Mario or anything
like that. UM. One of my very first video game
(03:17):
memories is playing that that first game. But like I,
all I really remember was the controls were sort of
difficult to manage. I just that's really what I remember
about it. UM. Mario Kart has been a constant throughout
my life. Super Nintendo in sixty four we and now
(03:40):
with this new fangled thing switch I thought of it. UM.
Me and my brother we used to do UM Battle
and we would we were really really competitive with each other,
and we would give each other five minutes to set
up traps on like those big block forts. I would
choose blue and he would choose Red, and we just
(04:00):
have five minutes and you set up all these traps
and then you had to venture over to the other
person's block fort and see how long you could survive.
I mean, it was just banana like lines of banana
peals and creaming shells shooting everywhere. And I had another
one of my friends, Um, she would play with us,
and she was the opposite of competitive, so she would
(04:22):
just let herself be killed and then go when you
die in that game, you would turn into a bomb
and you would she would go around and destroy our traps. Uh.
Good times, good times. Hm. I actually gave this friend
a a Princess Leiah Princess Peach mash up shirt where
(04:43):
she has these like big blasters and it says something like,
I don't need no rescuer, get out of my castle.
I'll have to ask her if she still has that shirt.
M M good shirt. Yeah. And when it comes to
Princess Peach, I actually really preferred Daisy, who is from
Do I understand I'm not a relation. I always thought
they were related. But she's got a yellow dress instead
(05:06):
of a pink one brown hair, and I think I
liked her because of the brown hair and maybe some
internalized misogyny around pink because Peach is blonde and wears
pink in case you don't know, by the way. Um.
And then when I was in middle school, it was
sort of a badge of honor to if you had
(05:26):
the the in sixty four joystick blister on your palm
from playing Mario Party so much. Yeah, yeah, and I
had the blister. Oh did I? I'm not gonna lie.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Really. Oh wow, Well,
it's just like the joystick on the N sixty four.
(05:49):
They had this game where you had to like spin
it in circles really quickly, and I think you were
supposed to do it with your thumb, but it was
much more effective to use your palm, which I'm sure
they didn't intend for or at all. But what's what everyone?
How old were you? You in middle school? So I
think I was in high school. Yeah. I definitely was
not playing video games at that point. So this is
why I'm like, what what is this? What kind of
(06:10):
aged out before that point for me? Yeah? Um, right
now I'm in the midst of a lot of Mario
Kart trash talking with fellow podcaster Noel, friend of ours.
He's he's talking a big game. Uh, but so am I.
But I don't know. I could. I would be interested
(06:31):
to see you to play, just because I know how
well you do. It's kind of funny. Because you don't
know how well you do. You're like, oh, yeah, I
did pretty well at the end of Like what does up?
I think it's because I'm randomly really bad. I don't know.
I have days where I'm just off and I get
like between eight and twelve every time. Um, so I
don't know. I think Noe will beat me, but I
(06:53):
he's talking a big game. We'll see it's getting built up.
A lot of co workers know about it. I'm starting
to get I'm starting to feel the pressure, you know
what I mean. Well, I would like to join just
because I know that I will be in the last.
But being in Blast means I get the better prizes
when you hit those. Oh that is true, So that
way I can get y'all. That's my joy. That is
(07:15):
so accurate. That is such a good like depiction of
what you are. I love it. I know I'm gonna lose,
but I'm gonna go ahead and take everybody else out
out that I can, and I'm going to get so
much joy out of it. Yeah. So this one has
been on my mind for a while because yeah, we're
today we're talking about Princess Peach. The history of Princess
(07:37):
Peach and sort of what her character says about. Uh,
some tropes, common tropes around women. UM. I actually pitched
this when I first started this show. Uh. And it's
only just now coming to fruition. UM. And the article
I based it on is unfortunately behind a I basically
(07:58):
original idea on. It's unfortunately behind paywall now, so I
couldn't even reread it. Um. But we will be talking
about it and what I remember of it a little
bit later on. UM. And it's also been on my
mind because we just an episode on Peaches on Saber, which,
by the way, your dog is the first thing that
comes to my mind now, as it should. Uh. And
(08:22):
also a lot of super not a lot Super Mario
games have been coming out lately, so I mean Super
Mario is kind of going back on top, especially not Quarantine.
I may things like the Mario Kart is fantastic to
play with as many people as possible. Yeah, it's fun
to watch. Oh yeah, it's It's definitely been one of
my big go toos for virtual hangouts and gaming. So
(08:47):
let's talk about Princess peach or Is. She's often called
peach Or prior to the in sixty four release Princess
toad Stool. Okay, now you say that, that's what i'd like,
is familiar at This is why I was so confused
when you were like, I want to do this, I'm like,
who who are you talking about? But the minute say
Princess told Stool, I know exactly who you're talking about.
(09:08):
That's fascinating. I'm that old. Wow, that's amazing. No, because
I was saying saying to Samantha before we started, I
was so surprised she didn't really know what I was
talking about. I thought like, really, she's ubiquitous, you know,
as as you say, Princess total, that's what I know
because all of the Mario games that I'm talking about
(09:29):
outside of the Mario part is prior to and sixty four.
Oh that makes so much sense. That's so interesting. Click
click click, we got this, we do we do alright? Okay, um,
so Princess told school our Prince's speech whichever you prefer,
is it sometimes playable character in the Mario franchise. For
(09:49):
some context, The Mario franchises, what they call a Big
Deal mostly consists of video games published by Nintendo, and
there are about three hundred gaming titles and combined, they
have sold over five hundred million copies. This is more
than any other video game franchise, and the franchise outside
(10:12):
of those games also includes books, comics, manga, anime, and
animated series, and of course, of course, the highly ridiculed
feature film, which I I have never seen and now
desperately want to. That's right up my alley. Like those
kind of just really bad, is it? I mean, I
(10:35):
didn't watch it. I think it was on or it
wasn't on, but maybe all the previews and it was
just so ridiculous, but I kind of just sat there
and stared. I feel like the every screenshot I've seen
from it gives me a pretty good sense about that.
It looks bad, but I definitely want to see it. UM.
(10:55):
There's also going to be upcoming, but very much postponed
to obviously a theme park section of a theme park
based on Nintendo Mario. UM. Many critics and fans call
it the best video game franchise of all time, and
Mario is widely regarded as the most recognized gaming character ever.
(11:16):
At one point, a survey found more American children recognized
Mario than Mickey Mouse. Yeah. March tenth is national Mario
day because March one zero looks like Mario. Okay, you
do not see even pressed, but I thought it was cool. Uh.
(11:38):
And the character was featured at the sixteen Summer Olympics
closing ceremony when Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rose up
from a work pipe just as Mario. He was also
featured in the postpone uh Tokyo Olympics. And they're advertising
that's fantastic, that's genius idea. Um. So these games were
(12:00):
hugely influential, and their influence and legacies can still be
seen to this day in games, TV, books, and movies.
Take this quote from Hideo Kajima quote, Super Mario is
equivalent to the big bank of our gaming universe. If
it were not for this blindingly spectacular creation, digital entertainment
as we know it today would not exist. Some big words. Um,
(12:22):
Nintendo owns the right to to yes to a porno
movies called the Super Hornio Brothers one and two. So
have you watched this one, Samantha. I don't know if
you know this about me, but I have literally never
watched porn. I feel like this is the one. Oh,
you know, I agree with you there and I just
(12:44):
want to clarify, by no means, are those the only
movies porno movies around this. They're the only two owns,
which is hilarious. And the fact that they owned two
because they wanted it. The sequel, Yeah, they wanted the sequel,
so the first one must have been pretty good, so good,
it's just the title Orno. I I gotta there's a
(13:06):
part of me that's got to just be impressed with that.
I'm still saying that this is the one, Colly. I
don't know. I mean, I think you're correct that if
I ever do you break the porno seal, I should
do it with something like this, But I don't know.
It could be really just saying, I mean owns that
(13:29):
come back. That's true. If it's owned finantendo, it must
be good. Okay, away from porn, Away from porn. The
titular character, Mario is a fictional Italian American plumber who
also happens to be the Mushroom Kingdom's hero. And yes,
the Mushroom Kingdom is the world that these games take
(13:50):
place in, and who rules the Mushroom Kingdom, Princess Peach
are told Stool her subjects are toads, are are these
humanoid mushrooms. Most of these games follow Mario with an
assortment of companions like Luigi, Yoshi, and Toad, going through pipes,
eating mushrooms, and fighting goons like Bowser, who is the
(14:13):
big bad, usually to save the kingdom, and often Princess Peach,
who frequently serves as the love interest and almost always
almost always the damsel in distress. The plot is often
pretty much that it's just Bowser kidnaps Princess Peach and
Mario has to save her and her kingdom. This has
(14:36):
been used so much this plot in these games that
even Peach commented on it and paper Mario the thousand
year Door, I can't believe I got kidnapped. And a
lot of you have probably heard the phrase your princess
is not in this castle, um, which we're gonna talk
about more more later. It's also frequently compared to because
(14:58):
I looked up if what does this mean? In sort
of like urban dictionary terms, and it's uh, these aren't
the George you're looking for? Often comes up with it too,
so Star Wars reference yes um. She's often held in
the cage dangling over a lava during these times of capture.
(15:19):
I don't remember this. I'm trying to think of this.
In my old school old school, again, I didn't win often,
so maybe that's why. Um So Solid Snake from Metal
Gear Solid, another popular video game that I'm not aware of,
references this, saying that Mario should be smart enough to
tell Peach or Toadstool to stop getting herself kidnapped. Come on,
(15:42):
after a female character said it was a romantic Peach
always had someone to rescue her romantic. Well we can
say that for again most games right, so easy, it's
so easy, Just don't get kidnapped. Still get kidnapped. Um. Also,
just a side note, I love the description of Bowser
(16:03):
and the Kupas that I found on the Mario wiki.
And the Kopas are the the race of turtles that bower.
They're mean turtles. So the description was a race of
evil driven anthropomorphic turtles. You want to watch out for
those turtles man every time. UM. Zelda is definitely similar
(16:28):
to Peach, and I believe from things I read, possibly
even modeled after her. Um. She's often seen as Zelda
the Zelda franchise as Princess Peach Um. I would argue
she's she's had more powerful showings. But uh, I definitely,
especially in the early games, I can see, I can
(16:49):
see the comparison. Well me again a theme when I
think of people being a princesses being kidnapped, Zelda is
definitely one of them. Oh yeah, absolutely every time. Link
oh link um. So, the first appearance by Mario was
in nineteen eighty one Donkey Kong, a hate game, which
(17:09):
I was born then, but I do remember this game
because it was still popular ten years later. So in
ninetive Super Mario Brothers, the side scrolling game debuted, in
the first game in which Mario was the main character,
and this was the first time we were introduced to
Princess Peach, who, by the way, has also appeared in
more video games than any other female characters. Yeah. Allegedly
(17:34):
she was based on olive oil from Popeye, which she was. Yeah,
and see how I mean once I read that, I
could immediately see see it. And and I mean, if
you want to talk about a damsel in distress constantly, yes,
olive oil for sure, but just like a parents wise
appearance wise, yeah, I think I wouldn't put it together.
(17:55):
I mean, if you think about it, you've got your
hero Popeye, You've got your big bad Bluto Bruto. I
don't remember Bruto Bruto, and then Olive Oil the Princess Peach.
I can see it. Okay, but back to Princess Beach. Recently,
in two thousand five, the roles of Mario and Peach
were reversed In Nintendo DS is Super Princess Peach, which
(18:19):
I've never played. Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. This game. Okay.
So she has this magic parasol that can talk and
the power of vibe, which is basically emotions or as
feminist frequency called them, her mood sweet. And she has
like a mood meter for how elpset she is at
(18:39):
the bottom I think um so players controlled Peach as
she rescued Mario and Luigi and some tones from Bowser
with her emotions. This game was developed by the so
called behind the scenes at Japanese studio Toasts or t
O s e um and a lot. I read reviews
of it, and most of the review we're giving it
(19:01):
like like it wasn't that well reviewed, and most people
complaining that it was notably easier. Mm hmmm, and I definitely,
I mean, he can't not pick up on the fact
that her weapons are like traditionally feminine things. Right, She's
got a parasol and an emotion meter, and I think
(19:25):
her emotions are like gloom, rage, joy, and love. She
only has four that's the alls you need, right, Oh,
I'm always in gloom. I'm gonna say the first to
have been my mode of emotions doing this whole quarantine,
So maybe not giving this game enough credit. This was
(19:51):
the second standalone game where Peach was the primary playable protagonist.
The first Princess Stoltzel's Castle Run, which was on this
like sort of gaming watch that I had never heard
of her seen, but it was like a like if
a what are those called tomagotchi? I don't know, but
it was like a watch and you just played games
on it. Yeah, the tommagotchi. That's how you keep them alive.
(20:13):
Get the kee being fed. But you have to do
like tappy tappy stuff that explains everything. You're welcome. She
was supposed to be a playable character in the New
Super Mario Brothers We but the idea was scrapped after
technical difficulties with her dress. Yeah, we discussed in a
previous episode on women in Video games about the big
dust up when a male developer said women are harder
(20:35):
to anime, So that's why they weren't so many of them,
because dresses are so hard y'all. Yeah, and we're gonna
come back to this later. But the way they handled
it is almost comically bad. Uh, the way they handled
this whole thing. Wow. So in two thousand and seven,
(20:56):
she made the list of Forbes Richest Fictional care actors,
which is congratulations, with an estimated worth of one point
three billion dollars. All right, go ahead, Well she's got
that money. She's got that fictional money. At least that's
why to keep kidnapping her. Yeah, I mean that's probably
part of it. I mean she needs to fire her
(21:18):
security staff, and we do. Oh, you're right, that is
a good point. I'm just saying she needs to learn
from past mistafe. Now we're sounding like solid snake, just
don't get kidnapped. What if we've become the billions of
dollars should help her security? Right, that's true, that's true.
She has options for sure. Um But okay, before we
(21:40):
get too judgmental here, let's look back at her history.
But first let's pause for a quick break for word
from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsored. So
(22:04):
let's go all the way back to Peach's first appearance
in So she If. If you don't know which I
would be very shocked if you didn't, But let's make
sure we're all on the same page. Her characterization is
super feminine. She's got long blonde hair, though due to limitations,
it often displayed as brown or red. Um. Oh, my gosh,
(22:26):
they made such a big deal when she put it
up in a ponytail the first time. Um, she's got
a pink dress. Her appearance has not really changed that
much over the years. Her demeanor is often described as
like very sweet, gentle, polite, graceful, basically princessy. Because she
threw out much of her history in the games, has
exemplified these traditional traits of princesses. She is sometimes referred
(22:48):
to as the universal Princess or perfect princess. And by
the way, she does have a cat form cat princess
Peach uh and a wedding four uh when she's in
a wedding dress, which we're going to get into why
that is in a minute. Um. And just to say
there's so much emphasis on her clothes and hair and
(23:09):
crown and jewelry, and researching this at the time she
put on this thing or this thing or this thing,
and four I want to compare. I went and read
because a lot of this like basic stuff to get
in a good context. I got from like the Mario
Wiki fandom page, and I went and read Mario's after
I read hers, hardly any description of like the time
(23:31):
he may be wore his hat a little differently or
like nothing, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't
reading too much into it. But now they really did
put a lot of focus onto what she was wearing.
That's really weird, especially since they can't draw her dress,
so I know alright the um and some of her
key moments throughout the games include, uh, Super Mario Brothers
(23:54):
to where she is the weakest and the slowest character.
Also probably the worst of the three that I know
to me, And it's Super Mario Brothers three when Toad
plays a joke at the end of the English art
game by say quote, thank you, but our princess is
in another castle. Just kidding, That's exactly how I hurt.
This is in reference to the gameplay that had Mario
(24:15):
fighting increasingly difficult bosses in a series of castles to
rescue Peach, only to find she's in another castle. Yep,
Like we talked about in the beginning, and now it's
commonly used as yeah, sort of saying you're barking up
the wrong tree. But you hear somebody say that, it's
usually what they mean. In Super Mario sixty four, Oh,
(24:37):
Peach bakes Mario cake and kisses him on the cheek.
King comes up a lot in these games I learned
mostly in Peaches storylines, which I guess makes sense. Bowser
attempts to marry Peach and Super Mario Odyssey and Mario
Bowser fight over her and she rejects them. Both Um
(24:58):
and Super Mario makers. She rewards Mario with a kiss
once once she was turned into a bad girl, and
another time hypnotize to fall in love with Mario's evil
alter ego Warrio. This turns her into a zombie, which
is corrected with a hug from Mario. There's a lot
of holding the Kingdom ransom unless Peach agrees to marriage,
(25:21):
or brainwashing her to agree to marriage some possession. In
Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, character named
Booster quote falls in love with her and decides to
force her to marry him, even though she is shouting
in all caps, Mario, help me, help me, Mario, Mario
help me. So uh, not creepy at all. Yeah, I
(25:46):
see you know, like I said, I loved this game.
I don't remember this. I remember the like there was
a marriage you had to stop, but I don't remember
that seems any disturbing to me now. But I guess
as a kid, I didn't pick up on that you
could play Peach and Super Mario Brothers too, like you said, uh,
(26:08):
and the idea was so different from what people were
used to that when Flow Chlorus Shannon are Stewart asked
young boys about playing Peach, many expressed confusion, saying something
like quote, she's the one you're trying to save. Like
they didn't get the gameplay without the fact that you're
trying to save, or they didn't get that you would
(26:28):
play her at all. Yeah, that's confusing. That's that is
so telling. Um the ending of the game. That game
was redesigned so that it was just one big dream
of Mario's. So that's how they tried to make it
make sense, Like, oh, Yeah, she actually never did do
those things. He was just dreaming. So she was unlovable
(26:51):
for the first time in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate. But
in her special attacks she holds an opponent still wild
towed attacks and stead the little tots guy um and
in some iterations, especially in the sports games, she does
have some really powerful moves and techniques. But in general
she exists to be Yes the damsel in distress, and
(27:12):
in some instances she works against her captors, and in
later games she becomes more feisty and enthusiastics such great
words and sometimes flirty running joke or not, she is
pretty much there to be kidnapped and rescued over and
over and over again. W she comes to the point,
how many times has this woman been kidnapped? Over fifty
(27:35):
times at the very least, and kidnapped as a baby,
even sometimes for her beauty, sometimes for her kingdom, and
sometimes to keep her from preventing some evil plot. Yeah.
I did a lot of digging to try to get
like a number, definitive number how many times she's been kidnapped,
and I couldn't do it. So I just like did
(27:56):
control find for the word kidnap, and it was fifty seven,
and I think on the page I was reading of
just like her every appearance in game and what happened.
But then I was reading too because I thought fifty
seven sounds low, really low. Um, it's there are other
words people use for essentially kidnapping, so it's a lot.
It is a lot. Uh, some argue. Oh, and I
(28:19):
love that I found this that she's actually the most
powerful character in the game, and that's one of the
reasons she's kidnapped so much. Certainly one of the reasons
she is kidnapped is because she is more powerful than
Mario will ever be. But then the question becomes, how
does she get kidnapped so much if she's the most
powerful person the hobby just kind of bored. Yeah, maybe
(28:43):
maybe she's trying to spice things up. Maybe that's a
particular kink. Maybe she just kend napping herself because she
just wants to be away from the Kingdom. Oh, she
doesn't like the responsibility. This is how she escapes. I
like that interpretation. Okay, she's playing all of them all right,
all right, So I found an essay about this, and
(29:04):
I think it was mostly ingest but it's hard to
tell and I wanted to read some quotes from it.
So it's an equal mix of obligation and satisfaction. Bowser
may have aims of extending his rule, but Peaches there
to launch an assault as needed and desired. Mario maybe
fighting his way towards her, but he's just picking up
the pieces left by peaches warfab In fact, he's just
(29:25):
a small part of the equation, the battle bread elation
of it all. Peach loves the carnage, with the fact
that she's protecting the kingdom as an added bonus. Bowser,
in spite of being thwarted time after time, is in
love with Peach. Along with the destruction, The warrior princess
constantly reeks, and Mario willingly unaware of it all and
blissfully unaware that his adventures are just a means for
(29:48):
him to prove his worth to Peach. Between her natural
abilities and her royal upbringing, Peach has been receiving conflicting
instructions since her adoption. One voice tells her to become
a dutiful, benevolent mon are, the other an unbeatable champion
that shows no mercy to dissidence. As a result, there
are two Peaches in one One of them is the
(30:08):
one we know and love, and the other is again
the beast that hides within. There's a constant struggle within
her to reconcile or two personas, and it's only because
of her duty as a princess that the beast doesn't
overtake the beauty. But every so often, every time Bowser
steps into reek havoc or there's a new sport to
take part, the beast is unleashed. Peach gets her chance
(30:31):
to be the person she wants to be, even if
it is in a limited capacity. For moments at a time.
She can escape the duldrums of monarchy and fulfill the potential,
the primal force that's been a part of her since birth.
So you might have been onto something. I feel like
I'm right. That article seems to prove my point. I
love it so much. Princess Peach is just so again.
(30:55):
I haven't played a lot of these games, but in
my kind of estimation of her, kind of cute, seeing
and girly, and I love reading about like her loving carnage. Yeah, well,
the other side, the beauty side. So the game frequently
(31:15):
alludes to the romantic relationship between Mario and Peach, and
throughout the series they are called the cutest couple and
described as having romantic entanglements. And by the way, did
you already heard did you use this for a reason
because of the recent events in the Smith household? What? Okay,
(31:36):
you do? You don't know? I knew you didn't know.
I was gonna ask, because just to put some other perspective,
was there there was a whole thing with Data Smith
having an extra relationship at one point, and she calls
it an entanglement, and that's been kind of the Twitter
joke the past week. So when I saw romantic entanglements,
I was like, oh my god, there it is. There's
(31:57):
maybe that's the origination of this. That's where Data got
it from. Okay, oh it is Mario. I had heard
something vaguely about that. I just didn't know that the
finer details. I actually got it from Star Wars obviously
Imperial entanglements. I mean, it's it's legit. It's an entanglement,
(32:18):
a romantic entanglements. I believe that was actually used in
the game to describe them. I think, um, so it
wasn't just me. From James mcmannon at games, Rader when
it comes to this relationship quote, should we really be
encouraging the union of Mario and Peach? Anyway? Remember this
(32:41):
is a man with side gigs as a doctor, carpenter, proke,
art driver, and an archaeologist. Unless we forget he regularly
competes at the Olympic Games, what chance of a healthy relationship.
And for all the work Mario puts into saving Peach,
he rarely sees anything of the reward. Maybe Peach is
just a bit mean. Yeah, she'll give Mario a kiss
on the nose. Sometimes she'll bake him a cake. But
(33:02):
let us not forget that Princess Peaches the dope Teltarian
ruler of the Mushroom Kingdom. Can she not put a
knight in his way some other title? Can she not
stretch to one evening on her at the Kingdom's nearest
Pizza express? I thought she did make him a night. Oh,
maybe she honors him at one of the games. So
(33:24):
she also does that, like classic princess thing, we're at
the end. She gives a reward like she if you
win for a long time, if you wont Mario kart,
She's the one that would put the give you the
trophy put the like metal around your neck. Um. I
don't know. I just appreciate these strong feelings about this
fictional relationship. I totally understand. I know, I know, I've
(33:46):
been there, I am there when it comes to Bowser.
I did want to touch on that really quickly, her
relationship with Bowser, because Bowser is not only determined to
make her love him, and I don't want to even
get into the interspecies. Oh yeah, I don't want to
get into it. Um. He is extremely possessive and sometimes
(34:09):
um he comes to her aid when another villain kidnaps
are so he also sees her as kind of this
object in prize to be had. Uh. Strange. So we
did want to take a part some of these tropes
that we've been talking about that come up a lot
in these games. But first we're gonna pause for one
(34:31):
more quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
we're back. Thank you sponsor. So we did want to
talk about this whole idea of entitlement. The princess is
(34:54):
not in your castle. Um, That, along with the damsel
and distressed troope, pretty much runs these games. Um. I
was thinking about it and they started coming out in
the eighties, the eighties, and I feel like during the
eighties we have a lot of pop culture examples of
women being depicted as prizes to be won as objects
(35:17):
from health characters. Often these male characters were stand ins
for nerdy male writers to to win UM through actions.
So a lot of movies, and I mean the eighties
is by no means the only time this still happens.
It's been happening for forever. But I just feel like
the eighties has so many good popular examples of here's
(35:40):
this nerdy, lonely guy who honestly probably isn't very attractive
UM conventionally, and he through like determination, persistence and actions
he will eventually get the hot girl of the movie
was with like the popular dude. And so just seeing
(36:03):
that UM progression over and over and over again, and
that the message that that sends, it's that same thing
of like, don't take no for an answer, Like as women,
we owe men who have like done all these things
that probably at least in a lot of these movies,
(36:25):
we didn't ask them to do UM. But because they did,
they are owed, they are entitled. Yeah, And I think
if you look at these games, there is definitely an
air of that. And I mean even through some of
the quotes we've read where it's talking about like doesn't
(36:46):
peach oh Mario something, um, and it's different. It's complicated
because she is the princess and he's like saving the
kingdom as well as her. But there's definitely that like
romantic layer. Um. Well, like we talked about in relationships
in general, how they can't be just friendship and obviously
(37:07):
has to be romantic, right yeah, yeah yeah. And then
and then if you look at why Bowser is kidnapping her,
it feels very much kind of like the whole idea
of the trophy wife of I want, like if she's
not a woman, she's just something to be had and
(37:28):
like a pond to make Mario feel jealous. Uh. I
guess you could say that about um when we talk
about monarchies in general, that people would have marriages because
of titles, because of unions, And it's kind of that
same level in this moment of like this is not
about love, this is not about whatever. It's just if
you take it, it's yours. And then not only is
(37:50):
this person yours, but whatever is underneath her or comes
with her is also yours, so it's kind of that
whole level as well. It's such a weird concept even now. Yeah,
I mean, it's just the and that's that is another
complicated layer. And I do love that we're having such
a serious conversation about a very cartoony video game. But
(38:10):
as we talked about it, it has had a huge
impact and it like kids start playing it and seeing
these messages at a young age, um, And it is
hard to separate out because she is a princess, and
there is that whole aspect of like marriaging, marrying off
and getting stuff with it. But that's still like implies
that I guess we don't have it really any examples
(38:31):
of male princes, Like I don't know if a male
prince in this game would also be kidnapped all the time. Um.
And that's that's part of the problem. We're gonna talk
about that more in a minute, is that we don't
see that version of it very much. We only see
the princess getting kidnapped and the marriage proposal being forced
(38:52):
along with that, and then it's confused even more by
like this idea of love which they use, but it
just doesn't it's not it's not. And yeah, the challenging
of like another man's masculinity, where she's just sort of
a pawn in this battle between Mario and Bowser and
(39:13):
both want to be with her and it doesn't matter
what she wants. Um. And then along with that controlling
this mushroom kingdom that everyone wants to control. Right, it's
just you know, I like the better when she was
Princess hill Stool and just kind of sat there. J K.
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's all I know.
(39:34):
That's all I know. So all of this that we're
talking about was really picked apart. And the article that
I mentioned that sort of was the inspiration for this
idea that I can no longer get to. And I'm
so cheap, I'm unwilling to pay one single dollar to
read it. Um. It's called Your Princess Is in Another
Castle and it's by Arthur two over at the Daily Beast.
If you want to check it out. Some of you
(39:55):
might remember it. It made it pretty big. It made
the internet rounds when it came out because it came
out right after that sorority shooting in California, and he
was talking about like misogyny and nerd culture and look
at the damage it's done. Um. So I did want
to include this quote. Nerdy guys aren't guaranteed to get
(40:17):
laid by the hot chicks as long as we work hard.
There isn't a team of writers pulling for us to
triumph by getting the girl. Um. Yeah, and you can
see that and so many things. So much of our
media is that exactly thing, right? Um? Oh? And another thing,
so much of our media is the damsel in distress. Okay, alright.
(40:41):
This trope goes back at least two thousand years um,
and it was a particularly popular story during the Romantic
and Gothic periods much much later, so it's been around
for a while, and it's been popular for a while.
The damsel was often tied up provocatively, sometimes naked. Um,
(41:02):
and the damsels the entire reason for the rescuer to
prove their bravery and chivalry. Just it's all she exists
for if you look at what many people mistake is
the first appearance of Princess Peach Pauline from nine Donkey
Kong that we talked about. She was also called Girl
for a while, but later Pauline. She was portrayed as
(41:23):
the beautiful girl in ads, she had like her cheeks
were flushed, she was crying, one of her bikini straps
was slipping off her shoulder. Her speech bubble read hell.
She gets carried around by Donkey Kong like a piece
of property as Mario, who was then called jump Man,
chases after them, so she was right out the gate.
Even the things some people mistake is her first appearance
(41:45):
classic Damsel in Distress. When asked why Peach wasn't a
playable character in the what it was at that time,
New Super Mario Brothers a wee game, the designers said
they went with Toad instead because he looked more like
Mario and Luigi. Great. Uh, so they went with a
male character because he looked like all the other male characters. Okay,
(42:07):
and the interviewer Chacey Johns then asked if the actual
reason is if there would be no plot otherwise, you know,
having no one kidnapped and does Mario get a pass
because it's Mario, right. I was thinking about that too,
because it is like it is this huge thing and
it has become a running joke that she always gets kidnapped,
(42:30):
and it's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy, like people
expect her to get kidnapped, so she's gonna get kidnapped.
Some games are definitely playing with this trope, re gendering
the roles. Some are more successful than others. A developer
recoded the original Donkey Kong so that Pauline was rescuing
(42:51):
Mario as a gift for his daughter. He and his
daughter received death threats from strangers for this, And it's
not he was selling it. He just made it for
his daughter and he was interviewed about it and people
sent them death threats. Out how protective some of these
gamers are. Um. Oh, and I know I've recommended this
(43:13):
game before, but Braid the game Braid plays with the
damsel trope in a really, really unique and beautiful way.
I want to talk about it so much, but I
don't want to spoil it. Um And it's pretty short,
so if you're just looking for a quick, quick play,
bread all right, So the damsel in distress is not
always bad. Here's a quote from at Least nor over
(43:34):
at Katako. In the end, I don't think there's anything
wrong with having damsels in distress as long as we
also have dudes in distress saving a person from harm.
It's not a bad trope in itself, it only becomes
problematic and boring, honestly when the damsel is always a
woman and the hero is always a man. Rescue narrators
are innately compelling, but they need to be gender equitable
(43:56):
and exists in as many combinations as possible. Men rescuing in,
women rescuing women, women rescuing men, and yes, men rescuing women. Yeah, yeah,
I agree, and I would also add I think this
problem is compounded by it's clear that usually the damsel
(44:16):
only exist two be the damsel, like there's no character development,
they only exist to power the male plotline, and it's
really clear like they're just kind of empty vessels. I mean,
that's exactly how I thought of them, saying that I've
only played the first and second and third Mario Brothers
(44:38):
and then the Super Mario Kart. There was no story
to it. It was just continuing to an endpoint. And
so that's why I couldn't even remember her name other
than that doesn't sound right, Oh, this is what I
know her name as, Like, that's exactly how I knew it, right,
It's the only reason she exists right, And to be fair, though,
I do forget a lot of names, so I make
(44:58):
up my own names. There's that I think, you know,
he's the only one that I like and know really
well because I always thought it was super cute and
I love that he can eat the fruit with his tongue.
I don't I don't know. I I feel that one
of my skill sets is being your nerd translator, so
I can thank you, thank you. Speaking of as you know,
(45:21):
I've been watching a lot of Star Wars lately, I've
made a new observation, and it is that Luke Skywalker
is the damsel and distressing those about some hate man.
It's true he needs more at rescuing than Lana does.
I counted by not like a little number, by a
big number. I just want to put that in there.
(45:42):
I think it is different because that's not the only
reason he exists as a character, and there's no like
prize necessarily aspect in saving dam It's just like friendship
or love. Oh but I just want to point that out.
I found it interesting that I've watched those of these
probably hundreds of times, and I've never really been like, huh, wow,
(46:04):
he needs rescuing a lot in this like a short
span of time, so maybe we perceive it differently. That's
what I was thinking, is what I'm pondering in my brain,
because in our Princess Lea episode, we talked about how
Princess Leah sort of is the damsel in distress but
isn't um. But then I was like, well, Luke is
(46:27):
in the same situation right anyway. And now here's my
final final note. I just wanted to add a little
thing I found from dictionary dot com about the peach
emoji of the actual peach, because we have for some
reason talked about emoji's a lot here. They are important. Um,
So here's a quote officially called the peach emoji. The
(46:52):
butt emoji was first introduced in under Unicode six point
oh as it's fuzzy, cleft appearance looks like a plumper,
and the peach emoji quickly game to stand for buttocks
on social media and in text messages, especially especially a
woman's in sexual context. And Apple released an updated version
of the peach emoji that resembled the fruit more than
(47:13):
the anatomy, but the change was met with such popular
uproar that the company reverted to its original design. I
love that, and also it became kind of a sign
for resistance the impeachment. Uh emoji, there it is, there
we go. I just wanted to include that. I used
it in Savor too, and I love it so much.
It's goods my dog, yes, who I am introducing in
(47:35):
D and D tonight. By the Yes, I based a
character off of Samantha's dog Peaches, uh, and for our
Dungeons and Dragons campaign and I I love it. What
what this? What she's gonna do is show up in
every place they are and ruined things for them that way,
(47:56):
That's what I was saying. Please just set it up
where she just comes around and you think she's just adorable,
this little dog, but all the time she just gets
human trouble always but she doesn't know it. And she
tries to be cute and she tries to be helpful,
but she's gonna get you killed. I love it. I'm
so excited to hear about this because it's gonna be
great because they're not gonna they've just started, so they're
not going to really know how much of a problem
(48:18):
she is. I think like the third time she pops
off is when they're going to be like, no, they're
gonna hate my dog before they meet my dog. It's
gonna be great inspiration. Um. If your listeners have any
any ideas you want to share some possible inspiration about topics,
we can talk about her. If you have any thoughts
(48:38):
about Peach or my Luke Scott Walker idea or D
and D, I will happily base a character, taking character
ideas and alot ideas all the time. You can email us.
Our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heeart
media dot com. You can find us on Instagram at
stuff I Ever Told You, or on Twitter at moms
to Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard,
(49:03):
and thanks to you for listening. Stefan ever told you
the production of i Heeart Radio. For more podcasts from
iHeart Radio, because the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Danny and Samantha and welcome to stephan
ever told you production of I Heart Radio. So here's
my very important questions to day for you. Samantha. Yeah,
have you played Super Mario or any video game with
(00:29):
Princess Peach? Do? Do? Do? Do? Do do? Let's see,
That's what I think of every time. But of course
I have. Uh. Surprisingly, maybe it's not enough course because
I don't play a lot of video games, but those
who are some of the ones that I did play.
I really love Super Mario three. That was my favorite. Um.
The Giant Land was my favorite land. Oh everything the
(00:50):
Giant was fun. Um. And then also, of course I
played Super Mario Kart and I've had I've played that
a few times. You and I've played. I'm very bad
at it, but I hit my darkness and yet you
comment on it and you move your body. This is
(01:11):
I am absolutely that person that jumps with my controller
at all times. My fingers heard because I'm pressing it
so hard all the time, no matter like ridiculously over
the top. Heart as well as the fact that I
make sure you guys know every mistake I've made on
the game, whether it's been falling off somewhere, whether I've
been hit by something, whether I hit a wall. I
(01:31):
definitely don't know. Oh yeah, it's better that way, right, Yeah,
Oh I love it. Um. Did you have any thoughts
about Princess Peach? Um? I like her fine. Typically, uh,
I always see the toadstool guy because I've never actually
saved the Princess Peach. I don't think on my own.
(01:54):
My brother always did, or someone whoever I play with,
But I always got to the guy and be like,
oh no, she's not here. Yeah, it was really maybe mad. Yeah.
Oh it's a great troope though, you just fail over
and over, I think, so. I mean it's very annoying. Yes,
(02:15):
I do like it when the king doesn't he transform
from something to himself, like because you get the wand
and you touch him and he's no longer a fraud
or something, and he turns back into a king and
then tells you where Princess Peach is. You know, I
don't know. Yeah, I think that's from the original Super Mario.
(02:35):
So okay, I played that along like when I was
four or five. I think I was young. I was
very young. Um. Most of my Mario experience has been
I did love the Super Mario RPG. I think that
was the one with Mallow. That one. I loved UM
(02:56):
and Mario Kart, Mario Party, like all those sort of
friend games that you played with a bunch of people.
I loved those. But I actually haven't played like, UM,
Super Mario two or three, or Paper Mario or anything
like that. UM. One of my very first video game
(03:17):
memories is playing that that first game. But like I,
all I really remember was the controls were sort of
difficult to manage. I just that's really what I remember
about it. UM. Mario Kart has been a constant throughout
my life. Super Nintendo in sixty four we and now
(03:40):
with this new fangled thing switch I thought of it. UM.
Me and my brother we used to do UM Battle
and we would we were really really competitive with each other,
and we would give each other five minutes to set
up traps on like those big block forts. I would
choose blue and he would choose Red, and we just
(04:00):
have five minutes and you set up all these traps
and then you had to venture over to the other
person's block fort and see how long you could survive.
I mean, it was just banana like lines of banana
peals and creaming shells shooting everywhere. And I had another
one of my friends, Um, she would play with us,
and she was the opposite of competitive, so she would
(04:22):
just let herself be killed and then go when you
die in that game, you would turn into a bomb
and you would she would go around and destroy our traps. Uh.
Good times, good times. Hm. I actually gave this friend
a a Princess Leiah Princess Peach mash up shirt where
(04:43):
she has these like big blasters and it says something like,
I don't need no rescuer, get out of my castle.
I'll have to ask her if she still has that shirt.
M M good shirt. Yeah. And when it comes to
Princess Peach, I actually really preferred Daisy, who is from
Do I understand I'm not a relation. I always thought
they were related. But she's got a yellow dress instead
(05:06):
of a pink one brown hair, and I think I
liked her because of the brown hair and maybe some
internalized misogyny around pink because Peach is blonde and wears
pink in case you don't know, by the way. Um.
And then when I was in middle school, it was
sort of a badge of honor to if you had
(05:26):
the the in sixty four joystick blister on your palm
from playing Mario Party so much. Yeah, yeah, and I
had the blister. Oh did I? I'm not gonna lie.
I don't even know what you're talking about. Really. Oh wow, Well,
it's just like the joystick on the N sixty four.
(05:49):
They had this game where you had to like spin
it in circles really quickly, and I think you were
supposed to do it with your thumb, but it was
much more effective to use your palm, which I'm sure
they didn't intend for or at all. But what's what everyone?
How old were you? You in middle school? So I
think I was in high school. Yeah. I definitely was
not playing video games at that point. So this is
why I'm like, what what is this? What kind of
(06:10):
aged out before that point for me? Yeah? Um, right
now I'm in the midst of a lot of Mario
Kart trash talking with fellow podcaster Noel, friend of ours.
He's he's talking a big game. Uh, but so am I.
But I don't know. I could. I would be interested
(06:31):
to see you to play, just because I know how
well you do. It's kind of funny. Because you don't
know how well you do. You're like, oh, yeah, I
did pretty well at the end of Like what does up?
I think it's because I'm randomly really bad. I don't know.
I have days where I'm just off and I get
like between eight and twelve every time. Um, so I
don't know. I think Noe will beat me, but I
(06:53):
he's talking a big game. We'll see it's getting built up.
A lot of co workers know about it. I'm starting
to get I'm starting to feel the pressure, you know
what I mean. Well, I would like to join just
because I know that I will be in the last.
But being in Blast means I get the better prizes
when you hit those. Oh that is true, So that
way I can get y'all. That's my joy. That is
(07:15):
so accurate. That is such a good like depiction of
what you are. I love it. I know I'm gonna lose,
but I'm gonna go ahead and take everybody else out
out that I can, and I'm going to get so
much joy out of it. Yeah. So this one has
been on my mind for a while because yeah, we're
today we're talking about Princess Peach. The history of Princess
(07:37):
Peach and sort of what her character says about. Uh,
some tropes, common tropes around women. UM. I actually pitched
this when I first started this show. Uh. And it's
only just now coming to fruition. UM. And the article
I based it on is unfortunately behind a I basically
(07:58):
original idea on. It's unfortunately behind paywall now, so I
couldn't even reread it. Um. But we will be talking
about it and what I remember of it a little
bit later on. UM. And it's also been on my
mind because we just an episode on Peaches on Saber, which,
by the way, your dog is the first thing that
comes to my mind now, as it should. Uh. And
(08:22):
also a lot of super not a lot Super Mario
games have been coming out lately, so I mean Super
Mario is kind of going back on top, especially not Quarantine.
I may things like the Mario Kart is fantastic to
play with as many people as possible. Yeah, it's fun
to watch. Oh yeah, it's It's definitely been one of
my big go toos for virtual hangouts and gaming. So
(08:47):
let's talk about Princess peach or Is. She's often called
peach Or prior to the in sixty four release Princess
toad Stool. Okay, now you say that, that's what i'd like,
is familiar at This is why I was so confused
when you were like, I want to do this, I'm like,
who who are you talking about? But the minute say
Princess told Stool, I know exactly who you're talking about.
(09:08):
That's fascinating. I'm that old. Wow, that's amazing. No, because
I was saying saying to Samantha before we started, I
was so surprised she didn't really know what I was
talking about. I thought like, really, she's ubiquitous, you know,
as as you say, Princess total, that's what I know
because all of the Mario games that I'm talking about
(09:29):
outside of the Mario part is prior to and sixty four.
Oh that makes so much sense. That's so interesting. Click
click click, we got this, we do we do alright? Okay, um,
so Princess told school our Prince's speech whichever you prefer,
is it sometimes playable character in the Mario franchise. For
(09:49):
some context, The Mario franchises, what they call a Big
Deal mostly consists of video games published by Nintendo, and
there are about three hundred gaming titles and combined, they
have sold over five hundred million copies. This is more
than any other video game franchise, and the franchise outside
(10:12):
of those games also includes books, comics, manga, anime, and
animated series, and of course, of course, the highly ridiculed
feature film, which I I have never seen and now
desperately want to. That's right up my alley. Like those
kind of just really bad, is it? I mean, I
(10:35):
didn't watch it. I think it was on or it
wasn't on, but maybe all the previews and it was
just so ridiculous, but I kind of just sat there
and stared. I feel like the every screenshot I've seen
from it gives me a pretty good sense about that.
It looks bad, but I definitely want to see it. UM.
(10:55):
There's also going to be upcoming, but very much postponed
to obviously a theme park section of a theme park
based on Nintendo Mario. UM. Many critics and fans call
it the best video game franchise of all time, and
Mario is widely regarded as the most recognized gaming character ever.
(11:16):
At one point, a survey found more American children recognized
Mario than Mickey Mouse. Yeah. March tenth is national Mario
day because March one zero looks like Mario. Okay, you
do not see even pressed, but I thought it was cool. Uh.
(11:38):
And the character was featured at the sixteen Summer Olympics
closing ceremony when Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe rose up
from a work pipe just as Mario. He was also
featured in the postpone uh Tokyo Olympics. And they're advertising
that's fantastic, that's genius idea. Um. So these games were
(12:00):
hugely influential, and their influence and legacies can still be
seen to this day in games, TV, books, and movies.
Take this quote from Hideo Kajima quote, Super Mario is
equivalent to the big bank of our gaming universe. If
it were not for this blindingly spectacular creation, digital entertainment
as we know it today would not exist. Some big words. Um,
(12:22):
Nintendo owns the right to to yes to a porno
movies called the Super Hornio Brothers one and two. So
have you watched this one, Samantha. I don't know if
you know this about me, but I have literally never
watched porn. I feel like this is the one. Oh,
you know, I agree with you there and I just
(12:44):
want to clarify, by no means, are those the only
movies porno movies around this. They're the only two owns,
which is hilarious. And the fact that they owned two
because they wanted it. The sequel, Yeah, they wanted the sequel,
so the first one must have been pretty good, so good,
it's just the title Orno. I I gotta there's a
(13:06):
part of me that's got to just be impressed with that.
I'm still saying that this is the one, Colly. I
don't know. I mean, I think you're correct that if
I ever do you break the porno seal, I should
do it with something like this, But I don't know.
It could be really just saying, I mean owns that
(13:29):
come back. That's true. If it's owned finantendo, it must
be good. Okay, away from porn, Away from porn. The
titular character, Mario is a fictional Italian American plumber who
also happens to be the Mushroom Kingdom's hero. And yes,
the Mushroom Kingdom is the world that these games take
(13:50):
place in, and who rules the Mushroom Kingdom, Princess Peach
are told Stool her subjects are toads, are are these
humanoid mushrooms. Most of these games follow Mario with an
assortment of companions like Luigi, Yoshi, and Toad, going through pipes,
eating mushrooms, and fighting goons like Bowser, who is the
(14:13):
big bad, usually to save the kingdom, and often Princess Peach,
who frequently serves as the love interest and almost always
almost always the damsel in distress. The plot is often
pretty much that it's just Bowser kidnaps Princess Peach and
Mario has to save her and her kingdom. This has
(14:36):
been used so much this plot in these games that
even Peach commented on it and paper Mario the thousand
year Door, I can't believe I got kidnapped. And a
lot of you have probably heard the phrase your princess
is not in this castle, um, which we're gonna talk
about more more later. It's also frequently compared to because
(14:58):
I looked up if what does this mean? In sort
of like urban dictionary terms, and it's uh, these aren't
the George you're looking for? Often comes up with it too,
so Star Wars reference yes um. She's often held in
the cage dangling over a lava during these times of capture.
(15:19):
I don't remember this. I'm trying to think of this.
In my old school old school, again, I didn't win often,
so maybe that's why. Um So Solid Snake from Metal
Gear Solid, another popular video game that I'm not aware of,
references this, saying that Mario should be smart enough to
tell Peach or Toadstool to stop getting herself kidnapped. Come on,
(15:42):
after a female character said it was a romantic Peach
always had someone to rescue her romantic. Well we can
say that for again most games right, so easy, it's
so easy, Just don't get kidnapped. Still get kidnapped. Um. Also,
just a side note, I love the description of Bowser
(16:03):
and the Kupas that I found on the Mario wiki.
And the Kopas are the the race of turtles that bower.
They're mean turtles. So the description was a race of
evil driven anthropomorphic turtles. You want to watch out for
those turtles man every time. UM. Zelda is definitely similar
(16:28):
to Peach, and I believe from things I read, possibly
even modeled after her. Um. She's often seen as Zelda
the Zelda franchise as Princess Peach Um. I would argue
she's she's had more powerful showings. But uh, I definitely,
especially in the early games, I can see, I can
(16:49):
see the comparison. Well me again a theme when I
think of people being a princesses being kidnapped, Zelda is
definitely one of them. Oh yeah, absolutely every time. Link
oh link um. So, the first appearance by Mario was
in nineteen eighty one Donkey Kong, a hate game, which
(17:09):
I was born then, but I do remember this game
because it was still popular ten years later. So in
ninetive Super Mario Brothers, the side scrolling game debuted, in
the first game in which Mario was the main character,
and this was the first time we were introduced to
Princess Peach, who, by the way, has also appeared in
more video games than any other female characters. Yeah. Allegedly
(17:34):
she was based on olive oil from Popeye, which she was. Yeah,
and see how I mean once I read that, I
could immediately see see it. And and I mean, if
you want to talk about a damsel in distress constantly, yes,
olive oil for sure, but just like a parents wise
appearance wise, yeah, I think I wouldn't put it together.
(17:55):
I mean, if you think about it, you've got your
hero Popeye, You've got your big bad Bluto Bruto. I
don't remember Bruto Bruto, and then Olive Oil the Princess Peach.
I can see it. Okay, but back to Princess Beach. Recently,
in two thousand five, the roles of Mario and Peach
were reversed In Nintendo DS is Super Princess Peach, which
(18:19):
I've never played. Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. This game. Okay.
So she has this magic parasol that can talk and
the power of vibe, which is basically emotions or as
feminist frequency called them, her mood sweet. And she has
like a mood meter for how elpset she is at
(18:39):
the bottom I think um so players controlled Peach as
she rescued Mario and Luigi and some tones from Bowser
with her emotions. This game was developed by the so
called behind the scenes at Japanese studio Toasts or t
O s e um and a lot. I read reviews
of it, and most of the review we're giving it
(19:01):
like like it wasn't that well reviewed, and most people
complaining that it was notably easier. Mm hmmm, and I definitely,
I mean, he can't not pick up on the fact
that her weapons are like traditionally feminine things. Right, She's
got a parasol and an emotion meter, and I think
(19:25):
her emotions are like gloom, rage, joy, and love. She
only has four that's the alls you need, right, Oh,
I'm always in gloom. I'm gonna say the first to
have been my mode of emotions doing this whole quarantine,
So maybe not giving this game enough credit. This was
(19:51):
the second standalone game where Peach was the primary playable protagonist.
The first Princess Stoltzel's Castle Run, which was on this
like sort of gaming watch that I had never heard
of her seen, but it was like a like if
a what are those called tomagotchi? I don't know, but
it was like a watch and you just played games
on it. Yeah, the tommagotchi. That's how you keep them alive.
(20:13):
Get the kee being fed. But you have to do
like tappy tappy stuff that explains everything. You're welcome. She
was supposed to be a playable character in the New
Super Mario Brothers We but the idea was scrapped after
technical difficulties with her dress. Yeah, we discussed in a
previous episode on women in Video games about the big
dust up when a male developer said women are harder
(20:35):
to anime, So that's why they weren't so many of them,
because dresses are so hard y'all. Yeah, and we're gonna
come back to this later. But the way they handled
it is almost comically bad. Uh, the way they handled
this whole thing. Wow. So in two thousand and seven,
(20:56):
she made the list of Forbes Richest Fictional care actors,
which is congratulations, with an estimated worth of one point
three billion dollars. All right, go ahead, Well she's got
that money. She's got that fictional money. At least that's
why to keep kidnapping her. Yeah, I mean that's probably
part of it. I mean she needs to fire her
(21:18):
security staff, and we do. Oh, you're right, that is
a good point. I'm just saying she needs to learn
from past mistafe. Now we're sounding like solid snake, just
don't get kidnapped. What if we've become the billions of
dollars should help her security? Right, that's true, that's true.
She has options for sure. Um But okay, before we
(21:40):
get too judgmental here, let's look back at her history.
But first let's pause for a quick break for word
from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsored. So
(22:04):
let's go all the way back to Peach's first appearance
in So she If. If you don't know which I
would be very shocked if you didn't, But let's make
sure we're all on the same page. Her characterization is
super feminine. She's got long blonde hair, though due to limitations,
it often displayed as brown or red. Um. Oh, my gosh,
(22:26):
they made such a big deal when she put it
up in a ponytail the first time. Um, she's got
a pink dress. Her appearance has not really changed that
much over the years. Her demeanor is often described as
like very sweet, gentle, polite, graceful, basically princessy. Because she
threw out much of her history in the games, has
exemplified these traditional traits of princesses. She is sometimes referred
(22:48):
to as the universal Princess or perfect princess. And by
the way, she does have a cat form cat princess
Peach uh and a wedding four uh when she's in
a wedding dress, which we're going to get into why
that is in a minute. Um. And just to say
there's so much emphasis on her clothes and hair and
(23:09):
crown and jewelry, and researching this at the time she
put on this thing or this thing or this thing,
and four I want to compare. I went and read
because a lot of this like basic stuff to get
in a good context. I got from like the Mario
Wiki fandom page, and I went and read Mario's after
I read hers, hardly any description of like the time
(23:31):
he may be wore his hat a little differently or
like nothing, because I wanted to make sure I wasn't
reading too much into it. But now they really did
put a lot of focus onto what she was wearing.
That's really weird, especially since they can't draw her dress,
so I know alright the um and some of her
key moments throughout the games include, uh, Super Mario Brothers
(23:54):
to where she is the weakest and the slowest character.
Also probably the worst of the three that I know
to me, And it's Super Mario Brothers three when Toad
plays a joke at the end of the English art
game by say quote, thank you, but our princess is
in another castle. Just kidding, That's exactly how I hurt.
This is in reference to the gameplay that had Mario
(24:15):
fighting increasingly difficult bosses in a series of castles to
rescue Peach, only to find she's in another castle. Yep,
Like we talked about in the beginning, and now it's
commonly used as yeah, sort of saying you're barking up
the wrong tree. But you hear somebody say that, it's
usually what they mean. In Super Mario sixty four, Oh,
(24:37):
Peach bakes Mario cake and kisses him on the cheek.
King comes up a lot in these games I learned
mostly in Peaches storylines, which I guess makes sense. Bowser
attempts to marry Peach and Super Mario Odyssey and Mario
Bowser fight over her and she rejects them. Both Um
(24:58):
and Super Mario makers. She rewards Mario with a kiss
once once she was turned into a bad girl, and
another time hypnotize to fall in love with Mario's evil
alter ego Warrio. This turns her into a zombie, which
is corrected with a hug from Mario. There's a lot
of holding the Kingdom ransom unless Peach agrees to marriage,
(25:21):
or brainwashing her to agree to marriage some possession. In
Super Mario RPG Legend of the Seven Stars, character named
Booster quote falls in love with her and decides to
force her to marry him, even though she is shouting
in all caps, Mario, help me, help me, Mario, Mario
help me. So uh, not creepy at all. Yeah, I
(25:46):
see you know, like I said, I loved this game.
I don't remember this. I remember the like there was
a marriage you had to stop, but I don't remember
that seems any disturbing to me now. But I guess
as a kid, I didn't pick up on that you
could play Peach and Super Mario Brothers too, like you said, uh,
(26:08):
and the idea was so different from what people were
used to that when Flow Chlorus Shannon are Stewart asked
young boys about playing Peach, many expressed confusion, saying something
like quote, she's the one you're trying to save. Like
they didn't get the gameplay without the fact that you're
trying to save, or they didn't get that you would
(26:28):
play her at all. Yeah, that's confusing. That's that is
so telling. Um the ending of the game. That game
was redesigned so that it was just one big dream
of Mario's. So that's how they tried to make it
make sense, Like, oh, Yeah, she actually never did do
those things. He was just dreaming. So she was unlovable
(26:51):
for the first time in Super Smash Brothers Ultimate. But
in her special attacks she holds an opponent still wild
towed attacks and stead the little tots guy um and
in some iterations, especially in the sports games, she does
have some really powerful moves and techniques. But in general
she exists to be Yes the damsel in distress, and
(27:12):
in some instances she works against her captors, and in
later games she becomes more feisty and enthusiastics such great
words and sometimes flirty running joke or not, she is
pretty much there to be kidnapped and rescued over and
over and over again. W she comes to the point,
how many times has this woman been kidnapped? Over fifty
(27:35):
times at the very least, and kidnapped as a baby,
even sometimes for her beauty, sometimes for her kingdom, and
sometimes to keep her from preventing some evil plot. Yeah.
I did a lot of digging to try to get
like a number, definitive number how many times she's been kidnapped,
and I couldn't do it. So I just like did
(27:56):
control find for the word kidnap, and it was fifty seven,
and I think on the page I was reading of
just like her every appearance in game and what happened.
But then I was reading too because I thought fifty
seven sounds low, really low. Um, it's there are other
words people use for essentially kidnapping, so it's a lot.
It is a lot. Uh, some argue. Oh, and I
(28:19):
love that I found this that she's actually the most
powerful character in the game, and that's one of the
reasons she's kidnapped so much. Certainly one of the reasons
she is kidnapped is because she is more powerful than
Mario will ever be. But then the question becomes, how
does she get kidnapped so much if she's the most
powerful person the hobby just kind of bored. Yeah, maybe
(28:43):
maybe she's trying to spice things up. Maybe that's a
particular kink. Maybe she just kend napping herself because she
just wants to be away from the Kingdom. Oh, she
doesn't like the responsibility. This is how she escapes. I
like that interpretation. Okay, she's playing all of them all right,
all right, So I found an essay about this, and
(29:04):
I think it was mostly ingest but it's hard to
tell and I wanted to read some quotes from it.
So it's an equal mix of obligation and satisfaction. Bowser
may have aims of extending his rule, but Peaches there
to launch an assault as needed and desired. Mario maybe
fighting his way towards her, but he's just picking up
the pieces left by peaches warfab In fact, he's just
(29:25):
a small part of the equation, the battle bread elation
of it all. Peach loves the carnage, with the fact
that she's protecting the kingdom as an added bonus. Bowser,
in spite of being thwarted time after time, is in
love with Peach. Along with the destruction, The warrior princess
constantly reeks, and Mario willingly unaware of it all and
blissfully unaware that his adventures are just a means for
(29:48):
him to prove his worth to Peach. Between her natural
abilities and her royal upbringing, Peach has been receiving conflicting
instructions since her adoption. One voice tells her to become
a dutiful, benevolent mon are, the other an unbeatable champion
that shows no mercy to dissidence. As a result, there
are two Peaches in one One of them is the
(30:08):
one we know and love, and the other is again
the beast that hides within. There's a constant struggle within
her to reconcile or two personas, and it's only because
of her duty as a princess that the beast doesn't
overtake the beauty. But every so often, every time Bowser
steps into reek havoc or there's a new sport to
take part, the beast is unleashed. Peach gets her chance
(30:31):
to be the person she wants to be, even if
it is in a limited capacity. For moments at a time.
She can escape the duldrums of monarchy and fulfill the potential,
the primal force that's been a part of her since birth.
So you might have been onto something. I feel like
I'm right. That article seems to prove my point. I
love it so much. Princess Peach is just so again.
(30:55):
I haven't played a lot of these games, but in
my kind of estimation of her, kind of cute, seeing
and girly, and I love reading about like her loving carnage. Yeah, well,
the other side, the beauty side. So the game frequently
(31:15):
alludes to the romantic relationship between Mario and Peach, and
throughout the series they are called the cutest couple and
described as having romantic entanglements. And by the way, did
you already heard did you use this for a reason
because of the recent events in the Smith household? What? Okay,
(31:36):
you do? You don't know? I knew you didn't know.
I was gonna ask, because just to put some other perspective,
was there there was a whole thing with Data Smith
having an extra relationship at one point, and she calls
it an entanglement, and that's been kind of the Twitter
joke the past week. So when I saw romantic entanglements,
I was like, oh my god, there it is. There's
(31:57):
maybe that's the origination of this. That's where Data got
it from. Okay, oh it is Mario. I had heard
something vaguely about that. I just didn't know that the
finer details. I actually got it from Star Wars obviously
Imperial entanglements. I mean, it's it's legit. It's an entanglement,
(32:18):
a romantic entanglements. I believe that was actually used in
the game to describe them. I think, um, so it
wasn't just me. From James mcmannon at games, Rader when
it comes to this relationship quote, should we really be
encouraging the union of Mario and Peach? Anyway? Remember this
(32:41):
is a man with side gigs as a doctor, carpenter, proke,
art driver, and an archaeologist. Unless we forget he regularly
competes at the Olympic Games, what chance of a healthy relationship.
And for all the work Mario puts into saving Peach,
he rarely sees anything of the reward. Maybe Peach is
just a bit mean. Yeah, she'll give Mario a kiss
on the nose. Sometimes she'll bake him a cake. But
(33:02):
let us not forget that Princess Peaches the dope Teltarian
ruler of the Mushroom Kingdom. Can she not put a
knight in his way some other title? Can she not
stretch to one evening on her at the Kingdom's nearest
Pizza express? I thought she did make him a night. Oh,
maybe she honors him at one of the games. So
(33:24):
she also does that, like classic princess thing, we're at
the end. She gives a reward like she if you
win for a long time, if you wont Mario kart,
She's the one that would put the give you the
trophy put the like metal around your neck. Um. I
don't know. I just appreciate these strong feelings about this
fictional relationship. I totally understand. I know, I know, I've
(33:46):
been there, I am there when it comes to Bowser.
I did want to touch on that really quickly, her
relationship with Bowser, because Bowser is not only determined to
make her love him, and I don't want to even
get into the interspecies. Oh yeah, I don't want to
get into it. Um. He is extremely possessive and sometimes
(34:09):
um he comes to her aid when another villain kidnaps
are so he also sees her as kind of this
object in prize to be had. Uh. Strange. So we
did want to take a part some of these tropes
that we've been talking about that come up a lot
in these games. But first we're gonna pause for one
(34:31):
more quick break for a word from our sponsor, and
we're back. Thank you sponsor. So we did want to
talk about this whole idea of entitlement. The princess is
(34:54):
not in your castle. Um, That, along with the damsel
and distressed troope, pretty much runs these games. Um. I
was thinking about it and they started coming out in
the eighties, the eighties, and I feel like during the
eighties we have a lot of pop culture examples of
women being depicted as prizes to be won as objects
(35:17):
from health characters. Often these male characters were stand ins
for nerdy male writers to to win UM through actions.
So a lot of movies, and I mean the eighties
is by no means the only time this still happens.
It's been happening for forever. But I just feel like
the eighties has so many good popular examples of here's
(35:40):
this nerdy, lonely guy who honestly probably isn't very attractive
UM conventionally, and he through like determination, persistence and actions
he will eventually get the hot girl of the movie
was with like the popular dude. And so just seeing
(36:03):
that UM progression over and over and over again, and
that the message that that sends, it's that same thing
of like, don't take no for an answer, Like as women,
we owe men who have like done all these things
that probably at least in a lot of these movies,
(36:25):
we didn't ask them to do UM. But because they did,
they are owed, they are entitled. Yeah, And I think
if you look at these games, there is definitely an
air of that. And I mean even through some of
the quotes we've read where it's talking about like doesn't
(36:46):
peach oh Mario something, um, and it's different. It's complicated
because she is the princess and he's like saving the
kingdom as well as her. But there's definitely that like
romantic layer. Um. Well, like we talked about in relationships
in general, how they can't be just friendship and obviously
(37:07):
has to be romantic, right yeah, yeah yeah. And then
and then if you look at why Bowser is kidnapping her,
it feels very much kind of like the whole idea
of the trophy wife of I want, like if she's
not a woman, she's just something to be had and
(37:28):
like a pond to make Mario feel jealous. Uh. I
guess you could say that about um when we talk
about monarchies in general, that people would have marriages because
of titles, because of unions, And it's kind of that
same level in this moment of like this is not
about love, this is not about whatever. It's just if
you take it, it's yours. And then not only is
(37:50):
this person yours, but whatever is underneath her or comes
with her is also yours, so it's kind of that
whole level as well. It's such a weird concept even now. Yeah,
I mean, it's just the and that's that is another
complicated layer. And I do love that we're having such
a serious conversation about a very cartoony video game. But
(38:10):
as we talked about it, it has had a huge
impact and it like kids start playing it and seeing
these messages at a young age, um, And it is
hard to separate out because she is a princess, and
there is that whole aspect of like marriaging, marrying off
and getting stuff with it. But that's still like implies
that I guess we don't have it really any examples
(38:31):
of male princes, Like I don't know if a male
prince in this game would also be kidnapped all the time. Um.
And that's that's part of the problem. We're gonna talk
about that more in a minute, is that we don't
see that version of it very much. We only see
the princess getting kidnapped and the marriage proposal being forced
(38:52):
along with that, and then it's confused even more by
like this idea of love which they use, but it
just doesn't it's not it's not. And yeah, the challenging
of like another man's masculinity, where she's just sort of
a pawn in this battle between Mario and Bowser and
(39:13):
both want to be with her and it doesn't matter
what she wants. Um. And then along with that controlling
this mushroom kingdom that everyone wants to control. Right, it's
just you know, I like the better when she was
Princess hill Stool and just kind of sat there. J K.
I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. That's all I know.
(39:34):
That's all I know. So all of this that we're
talking about was really picked apart. And the article that
I mentioned that sort of was the inspiration for this
idea that I can no longer get to. And I'm
so cheap, I'm unwilling to pay one single dollar to
read it. Um. It's called Your Princess Is in Another
Castle and it's by Arthur two over at the Daily Beast.
If you want to check it out. Some of you
(39:55):
might remember it. It made it pretty big. It made
the internet rounds when it came out because it came
out right after that sorority shooting in California, and he
was talking about like misogyny and nerd culture and look
at the damage it's done. Um. So I did want
to include this quote. Nerdy guys aren't guaranteed to get
(40:17):
laid by the hot chicks as long as we work hard.
There isn't a team of writers pulling for us to
triumph by getting the girl. Um. Yeah, and you can
see that and so many things. So much of our
media is that exactly thing, right? Um? Oh? And another thing,
so much of our media is the damsel in distress. Okay, alright.
(40:41):
This trope goes back at least two thousand years um,
and it was a particularly popular story during the Romantic
and Gothic periods much much later, so it's been around
for a while, and it's been popular for a while.
The damsel was often tied up provocatively, sometimes naked. Um,
(41:02):
and the damsels the entire reason for the rescuer to
prove their bravery and chivalry. Just it's all she exists
for if you look at what many people mistake is
the first appearance of Princess Peach Pauline from nine Donkey
Kong that we talked about. She was also called Girl
for a while, but later Pauline. She was portrayed as
(41:23):
the beautiful girl in ads, she had like her cheeks
were flushed, she was crying, one of her bikini straps
was slipping off her shoulder. Her speech bubble read hell.
She gets carried around by Donkey Kong like a piece
of property as Mario, who was then called jump Man,
chases after them, so she was right out the gate.
Even the things some people mistake is her first appearance
(41:45):
classic Damsel in Distress. When asked why Peach wasn't a
playable character in the what it was at that time,
New Super Mario Brothers a wee game, the designers said
they went with Toad instead because he looked more like
Mario and Luigi. Great. Uh, so they went with a
male character because he looked like all the other male characters. Okay,
(42:07):
and the interviewer Chacey Johns then asked if the actual
reason is if there would be no plot otherwise, you know,
having no one kidnapped and does Mario get a pass
because it's Mario, right. I was thinking about that too,
because it is like it is this huge thing and
it has become a running joke that she always gets kidnapped,
(42:30):
and it's almost like a self fulfilling prophecy, like people
expect her to get kidnapped, so she's gonna get kidnapped.
Some games are definitely playing with this trope, re gendering
the roles. Some are more successful than others. A developer
recoded the original Donkey Kong so that Pauline was rescuing
(42:51):
Mario as a gift for his daughter. He and his
daughter received death threats from strangers for this, And it's
not he was selling it. He just made it for
his daughter and he was interviewed about it and people
sent them death threats. Out how protective some of these
gamers are. Um. Oh, and I know I've recommended this
(43:13):
game before, but Braid the game Braid plays with the
damsel trope in a really, really unique and beautiful way.
I want to talk about it so much, but I
don't want to spoil it. Um And it's pretty short,
so if you're just looking for a quick, quick play,
bread all right, So the damsel in distress is not
always bad. Here's a quote from at Least nor over
(43:34):
at Katako. In the end, I don't think there's anything
wrong with having damsels in distress as long as we
also have dudes in distress saving a person from harm.
It's not a bad trope in itself, it only becomes
problematic and boring, honestly when the damsel is always a
woman and the hero is always a man. Rescue narrators
are innately compelling, but they need to be gender equitable
(43:56):
and exists in as many combinations as possible. Men rescuing in,
women rescuing women, women rescuing men, and yes, men rescuing women. Yeah, yeah,
I agree, and I would also add I think this
problem is compounded by it's clear that usually the damsel
(44:16):
only exist two be the damsel, like there's no character development,
they only exist to power the male plotline, and it's
really clear like they're just kind of empty vessels. I mean,
that's exactly how I thought of them, saying that I've
only played the first and second and third Mario Brothers
(44:38):
and then the Super Mario Kart. There was no story
to it. It was just continuing to an endpoint. And
so that's why I couldn't even remember her name other
than that doesn't sound right, Oh, this is what I
know her name as, Like, that's exactly how I knew it, right,
It's the only reason she exists right, And to be fair, though,
I do forget a lot of names, so I make
(44:58):
up my own names. There's that I think, you know,
he's the only one that I like and know really
well because I always thought it was super cute and
I love that he can eat the fruit with his tongue.
I don't I don't know. I I feel that one
of my skill sets is being your nerd translator, so
I can thank you, thank you. Speaking of as you know,
(45:21):
I've been watching a lot of Star Wars lately, I've
made a new observation, and it is that Luke Skywalker
is the damsel and distressing those about some hate man.
It's true he needs more at rescuing than Lana does.
I counted by not like a little number, by a
big number. I just want to put that in there.
(45:42):
I think it is different because that's not the only
reason he exists as a character, and there's no like
prize necessarily aspect in saving dam It's just like friendship
or love. Oh but I just want to point that out.
I found it interesting that I've watched those of these
probably hundreds of times, and I've never really been like, huh, wow,
(46:04):
he needs rescuing a lot in this like a short
span of time, so maybe we perceive it differently. That's
what I was thinking, is what I'm pondering in my brain,
because in our Princess Lea episode, we talked about how
Princess Leah sort of is the damsel in distress but
isn't um. But then I was like, well, Luke is
(46:27):
in the same situation right anyway. And now here's my
final final note. I just wanted to add a little
thing I found from dictionary dot com about the peach
emoji of the actual peach, because we have for some
reason talked about emoji's a lot here. They are important. Um,
So here's a quote officially called the peach emoji. The
(46:52):
butt emoji was first introduced in under Unicode six point
oh as it's fuzzy, cleft appearance looks like a plumper,
and the peach emoji quickly game to stand for buttocks
on social media and in text messages, especially especially a
woman's in sexual context. And Apple released an updated version
of the peach emoji that resembled the fruit more than
(47:13):
the anatomy, but the change was met with such popular
uproar that the company reverted to its original design. I
love that, and also it became kind of a sign
for resistance the impeachment. Uh emoji, there it is, there
we go. I just wanted to include that. I used
it in Savor too, and I love it so much.
It's goods my dog, yes, who I am introducing in
(47:35):
D and D tonight. By the Yes, I based a
character off of Samantha's dog Peaches, uh, and for our
Dungeons and Dragons campaign and I I love it. What
what this? What she's gonna do is show up in
every place they are and ruined things for them that way,
(47:56):
That's what I was saying. Please just set it up
where she just comes around and you think she's just adorable,
this little dog, but all the time she just gets
human trouble always but she doesn't know it. And she
tries to be cute and she tries to be helpful,
but she's gonna get you killed. I love it. I'm
so excited to hear about this because it's gonna be
great because they're not gonna they've just started, so they're
not going to really know how much of a problem
(48:18):
she is. I think like the third time she pops
off is when they're going to be like, no, they're
gonna hate my dog before they meet my dog. It's
gonna be great inspiration. Um. If your listeners have any
any ideas you want to share some possible inspiration about topics,
we can talk about her. If you have any thoughts
(48:38):
about Peach or my Luke Scott Walker idea or D
and D, I will happily base a character, taking character
ideas and alot ideas all the time. You can email us.
Our email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at i heeart
media dot com. You can find us on Instagram at
stuff I Ever Told You, or on Twitter at moms
to Podcast. Thanks as always to our super producer Andrew Howard,
(49:03):
and thanks to you for listening. Stefan ever told you
the production of i Heeart Radio. For more podcasts from
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