November 5, 2021 • 37 mins
What does surrogacy entail and why is there so much controversy around it? Anney and Samantha lay out some numbers, laws, definitions, processes, and controversies around surrogates and surrogacies.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to step
I've never told your production of I Heeart Radio. Okay, y'all,
just at the very beginning of this episode. I'm sure
if you've read the title, you kind of already know,
but I just want to give a heads up of
(00:26):
content warning here. I know when it comes to fertility, pregnancy,
and any of the such, this topic can get really
controversial as well as can be really sensitive. So if
you're not in a good place to talk about the
ins and outs of surgacy or the small bits of
surgacy that we are learning about, I guess you may
want to skip this one because, like I said, I know,
(00:46):
when it comes to conversations about pregnancy or loss of pregnancy,
it hurts. So go ahead and put this at the
very top, move on through, listen to the next one.
It might be more fun. It might be going to
what you choose to bet. Yeah, you never know. With us,
we know this. So when it comes to surrogacy in
(01:08):
the world of surrogates, I'm gonna be really honest. I
know very little about it. I will say the things
that I know. More So, when it comes to children
and having children, it pertains to adoption foster care, and
that's a whole other episode we're gonna talking about one
day because it's a lot of ins and out. There's
a lot of controversy coming out of that, which has
(01:29):
always been so, but there's more light on it today
and I'm glad to see it. But when it comes
to surregacy, I don't know much. And after having a
couple of conversations about the option of surgacy and the
details behind it, I became curious. Uh. I do know
some people and some friends who have either gone through
it or talking about it as an option, and I've
(01:50):
never really contemplated what that would look like, and so
I got a little curious. I was like, any have
we talked about this? Because we need to talk about this,
And because of that, you wanted to discuss some of
the conversations, statistics and even the controversy is surrounding the topic,
and there's a lot more than I thought. I guess
I should have known because I'm not in that world.
There's a lot And to put this at the top,
(02:12):
the opinions and information of surgacy seems pretty heavily biased,
to the point that a majority of the information is
trying to either persuade you to consider this as a
commercial option and we'll talk about that, or dissuade you
in order to promote adoption or preservation of heritage. And
we're not gonna talk too much about what that means,
(02:33):
but yeah, it's it should put a red flag for
you just hearing that term heritage to me, And yeah,
I think again when it comes down to it, the
organization in itself, we don't really talk about the surrogacy agencies,
but it seems to be a multibillion dollar thing as well,
So keep that in the back of your head. Yeah. Yeah,
just like you, Samantha, this was I was familiar with
(02:55):
the subject and as I told you, when I was younger,
I offer to potentially be a surrogate for a friend
of mine. I didn't go much beyond like we talked
about it, but I didn't get much beyond that. So
this is a lot of new information for me as well.
And this option in being able to use a surrogate,
whether commercially commercial surrogate or an altruistic surrogate, is fairly
(03:19):
new and in some states still considered illegal. And because
of this, the standards do vary from each state, which
seems fairly similar to that the standards of abortion not
just as morally objected to, though again it is still
somewhat morally judged, just not at the same level that
abortion is right. And so with that we are learning.
(03:42):
So we're gonna go ahead and put this here where
we are learning with you. And just because we may
say a statement or let you know of a statistic
or an opinion, that doesn't mean that's our opinion necessarily.
We're just trying to kind of even out what's being said,
because again, this is the things that you get hit
with and as we've talked about before, where it comes
to stati sticks, when it comes to theories, a lot
(04:03):
of it is biased no matter what, and trying to
get down to the nitty gritty, very limited, very limited,
And like I said, you have a lot of options
out there when you google it, but when you see
where it comes from, you're like, oh okay, m yeah yeah.
And as always, if there are listeners out there that
(04:23):
can illuminate this topic, we would absolutely love to hear
from you. But what you just did, Savantha, felt very
much like when you start to watch a DVD and
there's that note that's like, please be aware the comments.
It's not necessarily reflect right, our opinions. It's kind of
(04:44):
like other people's twitters, like retweeted endorsement, same thing, same thing,
the same thing. All right, So before we start, let's
do some definitions. So for surrogacy, as to find in
Mirriam Webster, it is practice of serving as a surrogate mother.
According to surrogate dot com, it is the practice by
(05:05):
which a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a
baby in order to give it to someone who cannot
have children. And within those definitions are several types of surrogacy,
including traditional. This type of surrogacy is when the curroguits
egg is used, which makes the surroguit the biological mother.
There's gestational and this is when the circuit has no
(05:27):
biological link to the baby. And then there is commercial.
This is referring to a surrogacy arrangement where the surrogate
is compensated for service beyond just the medical cost. And
this type is typically the most controversial correct um. And
then there's altruistic or I've also seen it as stated
as compassionate, and this is typically referring to when a
(05:50):
suraga as someone who is not compensated outside of the
medical cost, and it is usually someone that the family knows,
like a friend or family member. Annie, I'm guessing if
you had gone, it would have been altruistic because it
was a friend that they knew. And even though this
term is kind of referring to the compassionate again or
altruistic meaning I'm doing it at the goodness of my
(06:11):
heart to help someone, that does not mean that those
who are compensated or commercial is not altruistic and its
meaning or the reason behind it. And a lot of
the articles that I've read for women who say why
I became a surrogate, UM, do say that I wanted
to help other women. So I do want to put
that as a caveat. We are not saying just because
(06:31):
it's commercial, but it's not from the goodness of the
one's heart. Yes, right there. Um. And then when we
talk about agency, we're talking about segacy agencies. Uh. This
is when a person goes through an agency or an
organization for their segacy needs and services, and that could
include things like matching and screening, counseling, support services, and
case management within and some of them I think also
(06:53):
do legal stuff because in different stays you have to
go through an adoption process to make it legal. So
lot of things, yes, a lot of things. And then
there's independent also known as private surrogacy, and this is
an arrangement made between the intended parent and surrogate without
the assistance from an agency. Then there's identified and this
(07:13):
is when the surrogate is already found before any services
our agencies are used. So oftentimes it's linked to altruistic
are compassionate surrogacy. So what does this process look like?
And we're not going to go into the ins and outs,
although we probably should. I don't know any Have we
done an episode in vitual fertilization, you and I have not,
(07:34):
past host I believe have, but I'm sure we could
revisit it because those kinds of things are changing all
the time all the time. Yes, reproductive technology has changed drastically,
so for this process, in a gestational surgacy, the process
of in vitro fertilization or IVF is used. Again, gestational
(07:57):
is having to use someone else's egg, remember that, or
the into parents ex So I said, that's not the surrogates.
So the embryo is created in the lab and will
be transferred to the saracus uterus. Again, there's no genetic
connection for the SAG and the embryo, and a week
after the embryo transfers, the doctor measures the pregnancy hormones
to see the progress of the procedure. And again it's
(08:17):
not uncommon for multiple transfers to take place before one
is actually successful, which is also why there's a higher
number of twins or multiple children in birds, because that's
kind of a pick and choose kind of thing for
invitual fertilization. But again, this is a very brief explanation
about what's going on. It's a whole procedure. I know this.
(08:38):
There's hormones involved, there's weeks and days of doctor's appointment,
all of that. But just kind of putting that out there,
it was kind of like a short review. Yes, and
some of you have written in about this process and
we really really appreciate all of you taking the time.
(09:06):
We do have some statistics, although finding statistics for surrogacy
is difficult, which is not that surprising since it's pretty
controversial still, which we are going to get into for sure. Um,
but there are a few numbers we do know. According
to the CDC, between two percent or almost a thirty
(09:27):
one thousand of all assisted reproductive technology cycles are a
r T used to gestational surrogate, and the numbers more
than doubled in from from one percent to two point
five per cent. Yeah, I thought those numbers were interesting,
especially because it still looks so low in comparison to
(09:47):
I was not able to find anything past. So I
found that interesting because it's been what eight years, Yeah,
it sure has, it sure has. There are some things
that you're like, certainly someone's been keeping traffices and then I,
you know, shame on me every time, like nope, I
guess not, or they're not publishing them anyway. And within
(10:12):
these numbers there were at least eighteen thousand, four hundred
berths and random fact, yes, fifty three of those were twins.
Triplets are higher order multiples, and most of the carriers
were less than thirty five years old, as it is
more of a risk for later ages as you get older, right,
and according to one article, the number of circuits have
(10:33):
decreased greatly This year. One agency reported that pre pandemic
way time for intended parents who the parents who are
trying to seek a surrogate was estimated from three to
four months, which changed to one to two months during
the actual quarantine or the pandemic times um and now
has changed to eight months or longer. One agency stated
(10:54):
that their numbers showed a sixty decrease of surrogates from
previous years. Also, there's a conversation about vaccinated versus not vaccinated,
and it's a completely interesting conversation to the fact that,
as they said, there's more likely that they want vaccinated surrogates,
but the ones who are asking for non vaccinated have
a longer wait time because yeah, we are pro vacs here.
(11:19):
So if you're very upset by that statement, you should
move on. But if I found that interesting as well
as the fact that they were trying to find reasons
as to why the decrease has happened. And many people
are talking about illnesses and just quarantine, taking time for
themselves or not wanting to come out to meet new people.
And I've I've heard of people talking about how they
thought they had one and then things happened, whether illnesses
(11:41):
or deaths in the family, which we know is people
have been pretty rocked last year with a lot of deaths,
so that's kind of possibly why these numbers have decreased
so vastly. Yeah, And I know for me and a
lot of friends, and I believe, including you Smitha, like I,
there are things met clear I wanted to get done
that I just don't want to get done during a pandemic.
(12:04):
So I just put off all of these things that
I keep thinking, like, hopefully it'll be done soon and
I can go fix this, so I can go check
this out, and it keeps going going take care of yourselves, everybody.
So we also wanted to get into some of the
legalities of surrogacy and surrogates, because when it comes to
(12:25):
laws and regulations, there's a lot going on. There's a
lot to consider. In the US, the American Society for
Reproductive Medicine requires surguates to be between the ages of
twenty one and forties three, to have had at least
one full term healthy pregnancy and delivery, but no more
than five. But it does go beyond just simple regulations.
(12:46):
It's something that is defined and watched closely state by state.
There's apparently no federal mandates to it. So I believe
even though we do have that regulation by the A
s r M. There's no actual at ural mandates, and
we're gonna talk about a specific Supreme Court case that
really didn't change much though it seems the biggest role
(13:07):
for federal level is to just not address it, and
that's what a lot of the articles said. There's like
we're just going to pretend like it's not here. However,
internationally it has been addressed into, including the fact we've
been talking about India a little bit, who banned the
practice in But back to the States, a few states
have very strict laws, especially when it comes to commercial surgacies. Louisiana, Michigan,
(13:32):
and Nebraska have very limited, if not completely outlawed, any
practice of compensated surregacy, and even goes as far as
banning named parents on birth certificates, so literally saying these
intended parents can't be on there. So I think we've
talked about this before, but when it comes to child
support birth certificates, there's a lot of like loose ends
(13:53):
and a lot of question marks when it comes to
legitimacy and parents and parentification. So this is one of
those big things that you really have to look into.
So yeah, and it affects you if you're not biological.
So if the father is using his own sperm to
impregnate the egg, then maybe he can actually sign off
because it is biologically genetically his, but the mother may
(14:16):
not be able to um. And there are some exceptions
for this, but most of those exceptions are for those
who are in heterosexual marriages, which is not surprising, and
that specifically Louisy, And it seems to be the most
strict that I've seen in the States, but I could
be wrong, because you know, I didn't click on every state.
There is a website we can direct you too, because
they're very good at showing what's allowed and what's not.
(14:37):
But I was like, wow, that is really specific. And
then those few states that have very strict statutes or
laws and have a lot of limitation when it comes
to segacy, And if you're considering UH segacy as an option,
you may want to take a deeper look, especially if
you live in Arizona, Indiana, Idaho. New York, although they
have changed, they did, I believe allow for practice and
(14:58):
they definitely allow for ultra whist I UH surrogacy, But
I think New York lifted their band that could be wrong. Uh, Tennessee, Virginia,
and Wyoming are some of the more stricter practices, So
you might want to go and click and see what's
specifically happening in your area for sure. And one of
the big caveats and some of these laws and regulations
(15:18):
is the right of the surrogate themselves. Several states who
not enforce the contracts and so these agreements can be void,
which can cause a lot of drama for people, as
in fact, a famous case referred to as Baby m
Case when all the way up to the Supreme Court,
and yes, had a big effect in the world of surrogacy.
(15:39):
But we will get to that in a bit. And
because of these guidelines and different regulations, parental rights are
not necessarily guaranteed for surrogacy. Some states require one to
pass the adoption proceedings for legal custody are a quote
declaration of parentage before birth. Either way, many recommend hiring
reproductive right lawyers. There's planning out there apparently again. Wow,
(16:04):
and from what I understood, there at least over a
hundred surgacy agencies, which is still a lot less than
I expected, uh, to be honest, because they also work
internationally from what I understand, and seemingly a lot of
people who are looking for segacy will come to the
US to actually get the procedure done. So I found
(16:26):
that fascinating as it's still very limited here as well.
Um So let's talk about why people look at segacy
as an option. And it's not so unheard of for
families and individuals to start talking about all of their
options when it comes to children. And we've talked about
it previously, whether it's something we thought we would do
myself have children, you know, or still contemplating whether it's
(16:48):
something we want to do. Of course, as I get older,
the decision feels like it's no longer a choice. Yeah,
it's starting to get a little harder, and I'm starting
to contemplate maybe I want to do something like this,
even though again, adoption is something that is an option
that I would consider, but a lot of people don't.
And again we've talked about the many implications and adoptions
(17:09):
and a little complications as well, so that might not
be something that they want. But let's talk about the why. Yes,
let us talk about the why. So some of the
reasons include infertility and that's probably one of the biggest
for people who are looking at surrogacy as an option UM.
And when we say infertility, we were talking about the
(17:29):
CDC definition, which is not being able to get pregnant
conceive after one year or longer of unprotected sex. And
if the person is aged thirty five or older, they
may consider treatment for infertility if they are unable to
get pregnant after six months of unprotected sex. And so
for my friend who we were discussing this with, this
is what she was struggling with and she was thinking
(17:52):
about options. And according to the CDC and very heteronormative language,
this is fairly common. About ex percent of married women
ages fifteen to forty four are considered infertile, and about
twelve percent of women that same age have difficulty getting pregnant,
are being able to carry full term or that's also
(18:12):
known as impaired fecundity, and then there are same sex couples.
And of course one of the controversy comes from the
fact that the LGBTQ plus community continues to have to
fight for any rights whatsoever, and that includes being able
to have the family they dripped of UM and in
course includes being able to use a surrogacy as an option,
and we're gonna talk a little bit more about it
(18:32):
in the controversial states, especially when it comes to gay men.
And yeah, this is what we're mainly talking about when
we talk about gay men hiring a surrogate. Just that
option and using surrogates has gained some popularity, Yeah, a
lot of popularity with the gay community, but there continues
to be a lot of red tape that gay caubles
have to go through to be able to do so
in many of the states. Of course, this is just
(18:55):
as complicated as adoption, as many of the states have
decided to outlaw that as well. And uh, gay couples
from adopting and being able to have rights to children
to be able to be parents in general, which is
horrific to me and heartbreaking. Um, However, the statistics show
that number of you been using sergacy has gone ups
for those who are able to, and has gone upout
fifty pc from and yeah, there are nonprofits that help
(19:20):
gay men go through the process of surrogacy to be
able to have the family that they want. And because
infertility effects men as well, many organizations are looking to
ensure that men are able to be covered by insurance
for fertility treatment and testing, as some will often deny
those who are not in a heterosexual marriage. But that's
(19:42):
not all. They are also looking for a way of
getting affordable coverage for those who are seeking to start
their family, as the process can cost anywhere from one
hundred thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars, with the
commercial circuits being compensated anywhere from twenty two thousand to
twenty five tho dollars right, and those numbers the compensation
(20:03):
part for the surrogates are the U S numbers because
it's significant lower outside of the US, not surprisingly, but
the the actual process for the agencies are about that price.
I did see one place is that maybe it's twenty
two thousand that it starts there. I don't know where
that is because in the US it's showing a hundred
thousand as the beginning price. So another reason for this
(20:26):
maybe aging or just singleness. So I put these into
one category because I think that a lot of women
could be both and or uh. And I will be
honest again, this is why I've been thinking about it
so much lately, not necessarily because I want children, but
because I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting to the
point that I can't, I won't be able to, or
there's gonna be a lot of complications, and do I
even want to go through there? And to be honest,
(20:48):
my own past history that I know very little of
makes me worry that I'm not even able to anyway.
But there has been that as well as the fact that, yeah,
I also don't want to be married. So but I would,
you know, in my mind, like I think i'd be
a good mom. Sometimes I think that sometimes I don't know,
but I will hold you like, huh. But I would
like to be able to have that option. And so
(21:10):
maybe saving my eggs or freezing my eggs for now
and then having a seaga later on wouldn't be a
bad thing. So there definitely comes through my head. Uh,
And that is also part of the reason some do
want to do this. They are talking about it. It's
just sex in the City episode by the way, Miranda
saves her eggs, freezes her eggs. Uh, they don't really
get saraga. But I still know what's interesting. But another
(21:32):
reason that they may choose segacy is past trauma alone
and whether we're talking about trauma as in like abusive
trauma from past or whether we're talking about PTSD from
previous pregnancies, like things like that. There's a lot of
conversations about this is not healthy for me, and it
triggers a lot of things, but I do want children,
this may be the best route. And then there are
(21:53):
also physical problems. People who might not be able to
have children do too some type of physical issue. You
are overall complications with their health. That's another reason people
might want to seagate, right, And then sometimes it's because
they want to point blank and I know that one point,
I believe Kim Kardashian was heavily criticized because she did
(22:15):
use saragas and they're like, that's because she wants to
keep her figure blah blah blah blah blah, and wanted
through a lot of judgment, turns out that there was
a whole different issue with like her placenta. I think
I had detached at one point and that caused a
lot of complications. But it doesn't matter. Again, this is
one of those conversations like why why why and if
(22:36):
this is what they choose and it's legal and they're consenting.
I don't and it's above board, right, I don't understand,
but yeah, people may just choose to go that route
point blank. And then so talking about Kim Kardashian and
we've talked about it a bit, it's just the overall
controversies that happened under the guise of surregacy and Sarah
(22:56):
get pregnancies so much so that many families, especially women,
and there are several articles, are shamed for their decisions.
So we'll try to keep it a secret, not acknowledge it,
or try to move on. UM. And we talked about
it before, just a stigma of women not being able
to have or want children. UM, there's a judgment there,
and we did a whole episode of like, oh, we're
failing as women because we don't want them or we
(23:18):
don't want them now or we don't have them now,
either of those things. And again there's so seems to
be many who freely give their opinions and judgments without
knowing what the individual is going through on their own UM.
And just beyond having judge Mcjudgeson's that exists, there are
many who feel that this goes beyond that, as in like, oh,
(23:39):
this goes against all of humanity. It's really bad. Well,
one big controversy is that people believe this is a
tight rope of using women as just mirror birthing machines,
and that this can lead to taking advantage of those
who are economically disadvantaged. According to one study about the
(24:02):
law created in India in eighteen which banned commercial surrogacy
in the country and also placed heavily restricted rules on
altruistic surrogacies quote. Some feminists also criticized the commodification of
women's reproductive body, turning women into disposable beings, living tools,
or baby machines, and draw parallels of prostitution and slavery.
(24:24):
So they believe that using surrogates, especially those who are
in dire need to do their circumstances, is something that's
leaning towards a level of slavery and disenfranchisement. And there
(24:49):
has been misconduct in the practice, so this is not
too far off when it comes to some organizations, as
there were no real regulations for the agencies or clinics,
just overall guidelines um and in twenty twelve, of course,
came out of women being confined to hostiles not properly
compensated and not being told of all the risks of
(25:09):
the procedure going through the pregnancy or having these babies,
having babies, and in some cases that the surrogates had
no rights whatsoever. So, yeah, that is definitely leaning towards
the trafficking the alarmist. What are they doing They're not
being made aware and oftentimes they are. Yeah, they're taking
advantage of and the pay was so inconsistent that it
brought up a lot of red flags for the actual practice.
(25:32):
Of course, some would say, you know, no, but this
was helping the families. We actually you know, they're They
found a couple of women who were surrogates and they
were concerned when the band took place because it really
helped them during a dire time. So they had jobs
gotten fired, whether it's because of pandemic reasons or whatever.
They were able to provide. One talked about how they
were able to build a house from that money. But
(25:54):
the level of compensation was so vastly different for those
in India than those in the US. That obviously shows
a real disconnect and whether or not it is helping
or harming, right. And then there was a specific case
in when a couple abandoned one of the twins that
were born in India, which brought a spotlight on the
(26:14):
transnational surrogacy and some of the downfalls of that practice. Right.
Apparently one of the twins was born with a disability
and when they found that out, literally disobeyed in them
on the street and left. So it was really ugly. Yeah,
and the growth of surrogates in Southeast Asia grew in
preven endemic years. But the controversy of transnational surrogacy and
(26:36):
this lack of regulations has been a focal point of
why many countries are banning the procedure. Right, I believe
there was a case in Cambodia in which they hadn't
It was like thirty two women where they found they
were being surrogates and that's against the law. Was completely banned,
(26:57):
so they were threatened fifteen years like a lot of
years in jail, but instead took the plate to keep
the children and raised the children, and anybody who were
assisting got much less sentence, which I thought was funny
because they were the ones that facilitated all of this,
So you would think if this was a nactual human
trafficking case, they were gotten the bigger sentence as the traffickers,
(27:21):
you would hope. Yeah, and this was definitely one of
those traditional surrogacies where they was their egg and that's
believed they had to pay a pretty big fine, but
it was the national headlines where they were trafficking. So
again it kind of goes into like, oh, but okay,
I know what you're trying to say. But at the
same time, and is it shady yes, Like again when
(27:44):
it comes to when uh countries like the U s
and and the couple was from the Australia, that dropped,
Like when you have those types of divide one using
the other, you're like, yeah, there's a big disparaging level
here that it's like, uh yeah, this is not pretty,
this is not cool. But yeah, that was an interesting
(28:05):
case that I did read. So Also, a big controversy
has been whether this practice is an affront to womanhood altogether.
As a proposal to legalize surgacy in New York came around,
many feminists, including Glorious Steinum, opposed legislation, arguing that quote
paid sexy turns women's bodies into commodities and it's cool
(28:25):
warsive to poor women. Given the sizeable payment it can bring. Yes,
As the New York Times states in their article concerning
fertility and surrogacy quote, some critics contend that the quest
for fertility equality erases women and denies their essential biological role.
And though many surrogate babies are born to straight couples,
some opponents of surrogacy are uncomfortable with connecting the purchasing
(28:47):
power of men, especially gay men, to the bodies of women. Right,
So this was specific to why they were saying that
it was biased against gay men these bands, and but yeah,
that was pretty specific. They were trying to say that
this felt like they're taking away womanhood and we're gonna
talk about a bit. But it just seems homophobic as
(29:09):
well as the transphobic when you look at the bigger
charms of what womanhood. Yes, definitely and yeah, yeah, though
it is very reminiscent of those who make the transphobic
argument of biology. Some say that this is in reference
of pregnancy to womanhood. Professor Phillis Schessler, who wrote about
the surrogacy case of baby M, states, some people want
(29:30):
to do away with reality, but biology is real. Biology exists,
and biology is what will get you pregnant. Yeah. Well
then speaking of baby UM. So the case of Baby
M which again we talked about just previously, was a
huge case that went to the Supreme Court in nineteen eight.
So this was all before gestational, This is all traditional theracasy.
(29:54):
So what happened in New Jersey in nineteen eighty five
a woman agreed through a contract to be traditional surrogate
to a couple named the Sterns. The wife of the
intended parents had multiple school roses and felt she would
not be able to endure the pregnancy like a lot
of physical limitations, and went through the surrogacy route. The
(30:14):
woman was compensated ten thousand dollars which would equate to
about twenty two dollars today to carry the pregnancy to
term and would relinquish parental rights to the Sterns. But
after giving birth, the woman changed her mind and gave
up the money to keep the child and then was
sued by the Sterns. Yes um, and in the lower
courts the Sterns won. However, in the Supreme Court the
(30:37):
decision was reversed. They invalidated the contract stating that it
was in quote affront to public policy and the intended
payment was quote illegal, perhaps criminal, and potentially degrading two women. However,
custody was given to the Sterns under the premise that
it was in the child's best interests. But cases often
(31:00):
used as a reason commercial surgacy should not be legalized
the case for traditional surgacy and gestational surrogacy. Um, these
cases are often seen as completely different, right, which is
how it stated in much of the laws throughout the country.
But yeah, I found that interesting because it's still reminiscent.
Like I found an article that was written in twenty
eighteen talking about it. And obviously, as we were talking
(31:22):
about the one reporter who had actually she was the
one that chronicled the whole event, miss Chessler, from this
case and kind of became known for it. So therefore
she her commentary later on was very important because she
was that you know, eye witness of that, and it
reverberated to the they're gonna it's almost like a lifetime movie.
And I think it was a lifetime movie where the
(31:45):
woman was taking trying to take back the child, and
how it affected the young lady she was it was
a baby girl. So and some of the controversy comes
from the conservative standpoint of the heteronormative ideas of family,
which could also again lean to the continued bait of
women's bodies and who has authority of it and you know,
the lack of autonomy of it. And while researching the subject,
(32:07):
there are many sites dedicated to the fact that segacy
again was just a slap in the face two families,
traditional families, and to children's rights, and that surgacy quote
deliberately separated the child from the only mother that they
have ever known the moment they were born. So it's
kind of weird, Like what again, this makes me question
(32:28):
why many of the conservatives would suggest adoption as an
alternative for anything for abortion. You know, we hear this
a lot. If that's the case, if they arguing for that,
I'm like, this doesn't This doesn't a lie. This doesn't
a lie. I don't understand. I mean again, it definitely
feels very much like, Okay, we've made it so difficult
(32:49):
for women to have agency over their reproductive rates. They're
making money off of it. No, never, right, that's wrong.
On top of this, there is also, yes, this constant
fear of human trafficking that's been a threat throughout what
we're talking about, and please know that it is considered
by these sites human trafficking even though it's legal. Seriously,
(33:12):
agencies they're talking about, As you said, Samantha, that doesn't
mean there aren't issues, but they are legal circusy agencies.
I mean when we talk about human trafficking, we talked
about it so much with Bridget just how they're using
this almost as a caveat to so many things to
trigger a response and this is kind of on that
(33:34):
same lines again, so many shady practices, and this is
we're talking about human lives. I feel the same way
when it comes to adoption, that we need to regulate
and have this conversation and hold people accountable for sure,
and just the limits that it can be abused. Absolutely
again I go for both of those things. But like
I said, when we have just constantly using these words
(33:56):
where it's like it doesn't mean when you think it
means anymore, Yeah, are you're just using it essentially. Another
reason these sites state for being against surrogacy is that
it has a negative impact on the children, even giving
specific accounts from children who were surrogates stating that they
felt like um their lives were negatively impacted. However, in
(34:17):
a study led by Susan Golembach, director of the Center
of Family Research at the University of Cambridge, there were
questions of adjustment problems at a younger age about age
seven four children born through surrogacy, but it also depended
on the openness of the birth with their children, and
that by age ten there were no differences in behavioral
(34:38):
adjustments with their children they were studying, is what they found.
So I have not found many studies. I did find
a couple of studies about those who were surrogates and
that if that impacted the children, and apparently it really didn't. Again,
I feel like this could be set along the lines
of adoption as well, like if you're openly communicating what
(35:00):
this is and who why this is, that there were
less likely any real disruptions and adjustments and behaviors even
though people like but but it's the lying part that
often will affect young children, especially if they feel like
something that's been hidden and or that it is a stigma.
So if you're ready at the in the butt, oftentimes
(35:22):
they can And even in the baby m case, the
young woman who was the baby there was in question
said that she was fine. It's quoted from two thousand
seven because apparently she does not care to be in
the limelight, so we don't read much about her, which
I don't blame her, but she stays, I love my
family when it comes to the Sterns, very much and
(35:42):
very happy to be with them. I'm very happy I
ended up with them, and I love them. They're my
best friends in the whole world. That's all I have
to say about it. So again there's different cases and
conversations about who is affected by what. Of course, we
know that these similar sites will also have a conversation
about how gpt Q parents affect children as well and
the upbringing up children. So I would take that all
(36:05):
with a little grain of salt, and again not a
lot of numbers out there. It's kind of funny to
me how sperm that it is really given seems to
have less stigma than the actual mothers going through this,
and it is the mothers who are often judge more
so than the fathers in that family. Yeah, in both cases,
like the surrogate and the mother. Yes, such, Yes, this
(36:27):
is all very very interesting and as we said at
the top, listeners, if you have any experience or knowledge
about any of this, please write to us. You can
email us at Stephanie and mom Stuff at ihart meia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You.
Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina,
(36:47):
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told
You the protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast for
my Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to step
I've never told your production of I Heeart Radio. Okay, y'all,
just at the very beginning of this episode. I'm sure
if you've read the title, you kind of already know,
but I just want to give a heads up of
(00:26):
content warning here. I know when it comes to fertility, pregnancy,
and any of the such, this topic can get really
controversial as well as can be really sensitive. So if
you're not in a good place to talk about the
ins and outs of surgacy or the small bits of
surgacy that we are learning about, I guess you may
want to skip this one because, like I said, I know,
(00:46):
when it comes to conversations about pregnancy or loss of pregnancy,
it hurts. So go ahead and put this at the
very top, move on through, listen to the next one.
It might be more fun. It might be going to
what you choose to bet. Yeah, you never know. With us,
we know this. So when it comes to surrogacy in
(01:08):
the world of surrogates, I'm gonna be really honest. I
know very little about it. I will say the things
that I know. More So, when it comes to children
and having children, it pertains to adoption foster care, and
that's a whole other episode we're gonna talking about one
day because it's a lot of ins and out. There's
a lot of controversy coming out of that, which has
(01:29):
always been so, but there's more light on it today
and I'm glad to see it. But when it comes
to surregacy, I don't know much. And after having a
couple of conversations about the option of surgacy and the
details behind it, I became curious. Uh. I do know
some people and some friends who have either gone through
it or talking about it as an option, and I've
(01:50):
never really contemplated what that would look like, and so
I got a little curious. I was like, any have
we talked about this? Because we need to talk about this,
And because of that, you wanted to discuss some of
the conversations, statistics and even the controversy is surrounding the topic,
and there's a lot more than I thought. I guess
I should have known because I'm not in that world.
There's a lot And to put this at the top,
(02:12):
the opinions and information of surgacy seems pretty heavily biased,
to the point that a majority of the information is
trying to either persuade you to consider this as a
commercial option and we'll talk about that, or dissuade you
in order to promote adoption or preservation of heritage. And
we're not gonna talk too much about what that means,
(02:33):
but yeah, it's it should put a red flag for
you just hearing that term heritage to me, And yeah,
I think again when it comes down to it, the
organization in itself, we don't really talk about the surrogacy agencies,
but it seems to be a multibillion dollar thing as well,
So keep that in the back of your head. Yeah. Yeah,
just like you, Samantha, this was I was familiar with
(02:55):
the subject and as I told you, when I was younger,
I offer to potentially be a surrogate for a friend
of mine. I didn't go much beyond like we talked
about it, but I didn't get much beyond that. So
this is a lot of new information for me as well.
And this option in being able to use a surrogate,
whether commercially commercial surrogate or an altruistic surrogate, is fairly
(03:19):
new and in some states still considered illegal. And because
of this, the standards do vary from each state, which
seems fairly similar to that the standards of abortion not
just as morally objected to, though again it is still
somewhat morally judged, just not at the same level that
abortion is right. And so with that we are learning.
(03:42):
So we're gonna go ahead and put this here where
we are learning with you. And just because we may
say a statement or let you know of a statistic
or an opinion, that doesn't mean that's our opinion necessarily.
We're just trying to kind of even out what's being said,
because again, this is the things that you get hit
with and as we've talked about before, where it comes
to stati sticks, when it comes to theories, a lot
(04:03):
of it is biased no matter what, and trying to
get down to the nitty gritty, very limited, very limited,
And like I said, you have a lot of options
out there when you google it, but when you see
where it comes from, you're like, oh okay, m yeah yeah.
And as always, if there are listeners out there that
(04:23):
can illuminate this topic, we would absolutely love to hear
from you. But what you just did, Savantha, felt very
much like when you start to watch a DVD and
there's that note that's like, please be aware the comments.
It's not necessarily reflect right, our opinions. It's kind of
(04:44):
like other people's twitters, like retweeted endorsement, same thing, same thing,
the same thing. All right, So before we start, let's
do some definitions. So for surrogacy, as to find in
Mirriam Webster, it is practice of serving as a surrogate mother.
According to surrogate dot com, it is the practice by
(05:05):
which a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a
baby in order to give it to someone who cannot
have children. And within those definitions are several types of surrogacy,
including traditional. This type of surrogacy is when the curroguits
egg is used, which makes the surroguit the biological mother.
There's gestational and this is when the circuit has no
(05:27):
biological link to the baby. And then there is commercial.
This is referring to a surrogacy arrangement where the surrogate
is compensated for service beyond just the medical cost. And
this type is typically the most controversial correct um. And
then there's altruistic or I've also seen it as stated
as compassionate, and this is typically referring to when a
(05:50):
suraga as someone who is not compensated outside of the
medical cost, and it is usually someone that the family knows,
like a friend or family member. Annie, I'm guessing if
you had gone, it would have been altruistic because it
was a friend that they knew. And even though this
term is kind of referring to the compassionate again or
altruistic meaning I'm doing it at the goodness of my
(06:11):
heart to help someone, that does not mean that those
who are compensated or commercial is not altruistic and its
meaning or the reason behind it. And a lot of
the articles that I've read for women who say why
I became a surrogate, UM, do say that I wanted
to help other women. So I do want to put
that as a caveat. We are not saying just because
(06:31):
it's commercial, but it's not from the goodness of the
one's heart. Yes, right there. Um. And then when we
talk about agency, we're talking about segacy agencies. Uh. This
is when a person goes through an agency or an
organization for their segacy needs and services, and that could
include things like matching and screening, counseling, support services, and
case management within and some of them I think also
(06:53):
do legal stuff because in different stays you have to
go through an adoption process to make it legal. So
lot of things, yes, a lot of things. And then
there's independent also known as private surrogacy, and this is
an arrangement made between the intended parent and surrogate without
the assistance from an agency. Then there's identified and this
(07:13):
is when the surrogate is already found before any services
our agencies are used. So oftentimes it's linked to altruistic
are compassionate surrogacy. So what does this process look like?
And we're not going to go into the ins and outs,
although we probably should. I don't know any Have we
done an episode in vitual fertilization, you and I have not,
(07:34):
past host I believe have, but I'm sure we could
revisit it because those kinds of things are changing all
the time all the time. Yes, reproductive technology has changed drastically,
so for this process, in a gestational surgacy, the process
of in vitro fertilization or IVF is used. Again, gestational
(07:57):
is having to use someone else's egg, remember that, or
the into parents ex So I said, that's not the surrogates.
So the embryo is created in the lab and will
be transferred to the saracus uterus. Again, there's no genetic
connection for the SAG and the embryo, and a week
after the embryo transfers, the doctor measures the pregnancy hormones
to see the progress of the procedure. And again it's
(08:17):
not uncommon for multiple transfers to take place before one
is actually successful, which is also why there's a higher
number of twins or multiple children in birds, because that's
kind of a pick and choose kind of thing for
invitual fertilization. But again, this is a very brief explanation
about what's going on. It's a whole procedure. I know this.
(08:38):
There's hormones involved, there's weeks and days of doctor's appointment,
all of that. But just kind of putting that out there,
it was kind of like a short review. Yes, and
some of you have written in about this process and
we really really appreciate all of you taking the time.
(09:06):
We do have some statistics, although finding statistics for surrogacy
is difficult, which is not that surprising since it's pretty
controversial still, which we are going to get into for sure. Um,
but there are a few numbers we do know. According
to the CDC, between two percent or almost a thirty
(09:27):
one thousand of all assisted reproductive technology cycles are a
r T used to gestational surrogate, and the numbers more
than doubled in from from one percent to two point
five per cent. Yeah, I thought those numbers were interesting,
especially because it still looks so low in comparison to
(09:47):
I was not able to find anything past. So I
found that interesting because it's been what eight years, Yeah,
it sure has, it sure has. There are some things
that you're like, certainly someone's been keeping traffices and then I,
you know, shame on me every time, like nope, I
guess not, or they're not publishing them anyway. And within
(10:12):
these numbers there were at least eighteen thousand, four hundred
berths and random fact, yes, fifty three of those were twins.
Triplets are higher order multiples, and most of the carriers
were less than thirty five years old, as it is
more of a risk for later ages as you get older, right,
and according to one article, the number of circuits have
(10:33):
decreased greatly This year. One agency reported that pre pandemic
way time for intended parents who the parents who are
trying to seek a surrogate was estimated from three to
four months, which changed to one to two months during
the actual quarantine or the pandemic times um and now
has changed to eight months or longer. One agency stated
(10:54):
that their numbers showed a sixty decrease of surrogates from
previous years. Also, there's a conversation about vaccinated versus not vaccinated,
and it's a completely interesting conversation to the fact that,
as they said, there's more likely that they want vaccinated surrogates,
but the ones who are asking for non vaccinated have
a longer wait time because yeah, we are pro vacs here.
(11:19):
So if you're very upset by that statement, you should
move on. But if I found that interesting as well
as the fact that they were trying to find reasons
as to why the decrease has happened. And many people
are talking about illnesses and just quarantine, taking time for
themselves or not wanting to come out to meet new people.
And I've I've heard of people talking about how they
thought they had one and then things happened, whether illnesses
(11:41):
or deaths in the family, which we know is people
have been pretty rocked last year with a lot of deaths,
so that's kind of possibly why these numbers have decreased
so vastly. Yeah, And I know for me and a
lot of friends, and I believe, including you Smitha, like I,
there are things met clear I wanted to get done
that I just don't want to get done during a pandemic.
(12:04):
So I just put off all of these things that
I keep thinking, like, hopefully it'll be done soon and
I can go fix this, so I can go check
this out, and it keeps going going take care of yourselves, everybody.
So we also wanted to get into some of the
legalities of surrogacy and surrogates, because when it comes to
(12:25):
laws and regulations, there's a lot going on. There's a
lot to consider. In the US, the American Society for
Reproductive Medicine requires surguates to be between the ages of
twenty one and forties three, to have had at least
one full term healthy pregnancy and delivery, but no more
than five. But it does go beyond just simple regulations.
(12:46):
It's something that is defined and watched closely state by state.
There's apparently no federal mandates to it. So I believe
even though we do have that regulation by the A
s r M. There's no actual at ural mandates, and
we're gonna talk about a specific Supreme Court case that
really didn't change much though it seems the biggest role
(13:07):
for federal level is to just not address it, and
that's what a lot of the articles said. There's like
we're just going to pretend like it's not here. However,
internationally it has been addressed into, including the fact we've
been talking about India a little bit, who banned the
practice in But back to the States, a few states
have very strict laws, especially when it comes to commercial surgacies. Louisiana, Michigan,
(13:32):
and Nebraska have very limited, if not completely outlawed, any
practice of compensated surregacy, and even goes as far as
banning named parents on birth certificates, so literally saying these
intended parents can't be on there. So I think we've
talked about this before, but when it comes to child
support birth certificates, there's a lot of like loose ends
(13:53):
and a lot of question marks when it comes to
legitimacy and parents and parentification. So this is one of
those big things that you really have to look into.
So yeah, and it affects you if you're not biological.
So if the father is using his own sperm to
impregnate the egg, then maybe he can actually sign off
because it is biologically genetically his, but the mother may
(14:16):
not be able to um. And there are some exceptions
for this, but most of those exceptions are for those
who are in heterosexual marriages, which is not surprising, and
that specifically Louisy, And it seems to be the most
strict that I've seen in the States, but I could
be wrong, because you know, I didn't click on every state.
There is a website we can direct you too, because
they're very good at showing what's allowed and what's not.
(14:37):
But I was like, wow, that is really specific. And
then those few states that have very strict statutes or
laws and have a lot of limitation when it comes
to segacy, And if you're considering UH segacy as an option,
you may want to take a deeper look, especially if
you live in Arizona, Indiana, Idaho. New York, although they
have changed, they did, I believe allow for practice and
(14:58):
they definitely allow for ultra whist I UH surrogacy, But
I think New York lifted their band that could be wrong. Uh, Tennessee, Virginia,
and Wyoming are some of the more stricter practices, So
you might want to go and click and see what's
specifically happening in your area for sure. And one of
the big caveats and some of these laws and regulations
(15:18):
is the right of the surrogate themselves. Several states who
not enforce the contracts and so these agreements can be void,
which can cause a lot of drama for people, as
in fact, a famous case referred to as Baby m
Case when all the way up to the Supreme Court,
and yes, had a big effect in the world of surrogacy.
(15:39):
But we will get to that in a bit. And
because of these guidelines and different regulations, parental rights are
not necessarily guaranteed for surrogacy. Some states require one to
pass the adoption proceedings for legal custody are a quote
declaration of parentage before birth. Either way, many recommend hiring
reproductive right lawyers. There's planning out there apparently again. Wow,
(16:04):
and from what I understood, there at least over a
hundred surgacy agencies, which is still a lot less than
I expected, uh, to be honest, because they also work
internationally from what I understand, and seemingly a lot of
people who are looking for segacy will come to the
US to actually get the procedure done. So I found
(16:26):
that fascinating as it's still very limited here as well.
Um So let's talk about why people look at segacy
as an option. And it's not so unheard of for
families and individuals to start talking about all of their
options when it comes to children. And we've talked about
it previously, whether it's something we thought we would do
myself have children, you know, or still contemplating whether it's
(16:48):
something we want to do. Of course, as I get older,
the decision feels like it's no longer a choice. Yeah,
it's starting to get a little harder, and I'm starting
to contemplate maybe I want to do something like this,
even though again, adoption is something that is an option
that I would consider, but a lot of people don't.
And again we've talked about the many implications and adoptions
(17:09):
and a little complications as well, so that might not
be something that they want. But let's talk about the why. Yes,
let us talk about the why. So some of the
reasons include infertility and that's probably one of the biggest
for people who are looking at surrogacy as an option UM.
And when we say infertility, we were talking about the
(17:29):
CDC definition, which is not being able to get pregnant
conceive after one year or longer of unprotected sex. And
if the person is aged thirty five or older, they
may consider treatment for infertility if they are unable to
get pregnant after six months of unprotected sex. And so
for my friend who we were discussing this with, this
is what she was struggling with and she was thinking
(17:52):
about options. And according to the CDC and very heteronormative language,
this is fairly common. About ex percent of married women
ages fifteen to forty four are considered infertile, and about
twelve percent of women that same age have difficulty getting pregnant,
are being able to carry full term or that's also
(18:12):
known as impaired fecundity, and then there are same sex couples.
And of course one of the controversy comes from the
fact that the LGBTQ plus community continues to have to
fight for any rights whatsoever, and that includes being able
to have the family they dripped of UM and in
course includes being able to use a surrogacy as an option,
and we're gonna talk a little bit more about it
(18:32):
in the controversial states, especially when it comes to gay men.
And yeah, this is what we're mainly talking about when
we talk about gay men hiring a surrogate. Just that
option and using surrogates has gained some popularity, Yeah, a
lot of popularity with the gay community, but there continues
to be a lot of red tape that gay caubles
have to go through to be able to do so
in many of the states. Of course, this is just
(18:55):
as complicated as adoption, as many of the states have
decided to outlaw that as well. And uh, gay couples
from adopting and being able to have rights to children
to be able to be parents in general, which is
horrific to me and heartbreaking. Um, However, the statistics show
that number of you been using sergacy has gone ups
for those who are able to, and has gone upout
fifty pc from and yeah, there are nonprofits that help
(19:20):
gay men go through the process of surrogacy to be
able to have the family that they want. And because
infertility effects men as well, many organizations are looking to
ensure that men are able to be covered by insurance
for fertility treatment and testing, as some will often deny
those who are not in a heterosexual marriage. But that's
(19:42):
not all. They are also looking for a way of
getting affordable coverage for those who are seeking to start
their family, as the process can cost anywhere from one
hundred thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars, with the
commercial circuits being compensated anywhere from twenty two thousand to
twenty five tho dollars right, and those numbers the compensation
(20:03):
part for the surrogates are the U S numbers because
it's significant lower outside of the US, not surprisingly, but
the the actual process for the agencies are about that price.
I did see one place is that maybe it's twenty
two thousand that it starts there. I don't know where
that is because in the US it's showing a hundred
thousand as the beginning price. So another reason for this
(20:26):
maybe aging or just singleness. So I put these into
one category because I think that a lot of women
could be both and or uh. And I will be
honest again, this is why I've been thinking about it
so much lately, not necessarily because I want children, but
because I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting to the
point that I can't, I won't be able to, or
there's gonna be a lot of complications, and do I
even want to go through there? And to be honest,
(20:48):
my own past history that I know very little of
makes me worry that I'm not even able to anyway.
But there has been that as well as the fact that, yeah,
I also don't want to be married. So but I would,
you know, in my mind, like I think i'd be
a good mom. Sometimes I think that sometimes I don't know,
but I will hold you like, huh. But I would
like to be able to have that option. And so
(21:10):
maybe saving my eggs or freezing my eggs for now
and then having a seaga later on wouldn't be a
bad thing. So there definitely comes through my head. Uh,
And that is also part of the reason some do
want to do this. They are talking about it. It's
just sex in the City episode by the way, Miranda
saves her eggs, freezes her eggs. Uh, they don't really
get saraga. But I still know what's interesting. But another
(21:32):
reason that they may choose segacy is past trauma alone
and whether we're talking about trauma as in like abusive
trauma from past or whether we're talking about PTSD from
previous pregnancies, like things like that. There's a lot of
conversations about this is not healthy for me, and it
triggers a lot of things, but I do want children,
this may be the best route. And then there are
(21:53):
also physical problems. People who might not be able to
have children do too some type of physical issue. You
are overall complications with their health. That's another reason people
might want to seagate, right, And then sometimes it's because
they want to point blank and I know that one point,
I believe Kim Kardashian was heavily criticized because she did
(22:15):
use saragas and they're like, that's because she wants to
keep her figure blah blah blah blah blah, and wanted
through a lot of judgment, turns out that there was
a whole different issue with like her placenta. I think
I had detached at one point and that caused a
lot of complications. But it doesn't matter. Again, this is
one of those conversations like why why why and if
(22:36):
this is what they choose and it's legal and they're consenting.
I don't and it's above board, right, I don't understand,
but yeah, people may just choose to go that route
point blank. And then so talking about Kim Kardashian and
we've talked about it a bit, it's just the overall
controversies that happened under the guise of surregacy and Sarah
(22:56):
get pregnancies so much so that many families, especially women,
and there are several articles, are shamed for their decisions.
So we'll try to keep it a secret, not acknowledge it,
or try to move on. UM. And we talked about
it before, just a stigma of women not being able
to have or want children. UM, there's a judgment there,
and we did a whole episode of like, oh, we're
failing as women because we don't want them or we
(23:18):
don't want them now or we don't have them now,
either of those things. And again there's so seems to
be many who freely give their opinions and judgments without
knowing what the individual is going through on their own UM.
And just beyond having judge Mcjudgeson's that exists, there are
many who feel that this goes beyond that, as in like, oh,
(23:39):
this goes against all of humanity. It's really bad. Well,
one big controversy is that people believe this is a
tight rope of using women as just mirror birthing machines,
and that this can lead to taking advantage of those
who are economically disadvantaged. According to one study about the
(24:02):
law created in India in eighteen which banned commercial surrogacy
in the country and also placed heavily restricted rules on
altruistic surrogacies quote. Some feminists also criticized the commodification of
women's reproductive body, turning women into disposable beings, living tools,
or baby machines, and draw parallels of prostitution and slavery.
(24:24):
So they believe that using surrogates, especially those who are
in dire need to do their circumstances, is something that's
leaning towards a level of slavery and disenfranchisement. And there
(24:49):
has been misconduct in the practice, so this is not
too far off when it comes to some organizations, as
there were no real regulations for the agencies or clinics,
just overall guidelines um and in twenty twelve, of course,
came out of women being confined to hostiles not properly
compensated and not being told of all the risks of
(25:09):
the procedure going through the pregnancy or having these babies,
having babies, and in some cases that the surrogates had
no rights whatsoever. So, yeah, that is definitely leaning towards
the trafficking the alarmist. What are they doing They're not
being made aware and oftentimes they are. Yeah, they're taking
advantage of and the pay was so inconsistent that it
brought up a lot of red flags for the actual practice.
(25:32):
Of course, some would say, you know, no, but this
was helping the families. We actually you know, they're They
found a couple of women who were surrogates and they
were concerned when the band took place because it really
helped them during a dire time. So they had jobs
gotten fired, whether it's because of pandemic reasons or whatever.
They were able to provide. One talked about how they
were able to build a house from that money. But
(25:54):
the level of compensation was so vastly different for those
in India than those in the US. That obviously shows
a real disconnect and whether or not it is helping
or harming, right. And then there was a specific case
in when a couple abandoned one of the twins that
were born in India, which brought a spotlight on the
(26:14):
transnational surrogacy and some of the downfalls of that practice. Right.
Apparently one of the twins was born with a disability
and when they found that out, literally disobeyed in them
on the street and left. So it was really ugly. Yeah,
and the growth of surrogates in Southeast Asia grew in
preven endemic years. But the controversy of transnational surrogacy and
(26:36):
this lack of regulations has been a focal point of
why many countries are banning the procedure. Right, I believe
there was a case in Cambodia in which they hadn't
It was like thirty two women where they found they
were being surrogates and that's against the law. Was completely banned,
(26:57):
so they were threatened fifteen years like a lot of
years in jail, but instead took the plate to keep
the children and raised the children, and anybody who were
assisting got much less sentence, which I thought was funny
because they were the ones that facilitated all of this,
So you would think if this was a nactual human
trafficking case, they were gotten the bigger sentence as the traffickers,
(27:21):
you would hope. Yeah, and this was definitely one of
those traditional surrogacies where they was their egg and that's
believed they had to pay a pretty big fine, but
it was the national headlines where they were trafficking. So
again it kind of goes into like, oh, but okay,
I know what you're trying to say. But at the
same time, and is it shady yes, Like again when
(27:44):
it comes to when uh countries like the U s
and and the couple was from the Australia, that dropped,
Like when you have those types of divide one using
the other, you're like, yeah, there's a big disparaging level
here that it's like, uh yeah, this is not pretty,
this is not cool. But yeah, that was an interesting
(28:05):
case that I did read. So Also, a big controversy
has been whether this practice is an affront to womanhood altogether.
As a proposal to legalize surgacy in New York came around,
many feminists, including Glorious Steinum, opposed legislation, arguing that quote
paid sexy turns women's bodies into commodities and it's cool
(28:25):
warsive to poor women. Given the sizeable payment it can bring. Yes,
As the New York Times states in their article concerning
fertility and surrogacy quote, some critics contend that the quest
for fertility equality erases women and denies their essential biological role.
And though many surrogate babies are born to straight couples,
some opponents of surrogacy are uncomfortable with connecting the purchasing
(28:47):
power of men, especially gay men, to the bodies of women. Right,
So this was specific to why they were saying that
it was biased against gay men these bands, and but yeah,
that was pretty specific. They were trying to say that
this felt like they're taking away womanhood and we're gonna
talk about a bit. But it just seems homophobic as
(29:09):
well as the transphobic when you look at the bigger
charms of what womanhood. Yes, definitely and yeah, yeah, though
it is very reminiscent of those who make the transphobic
argument of biology. Some say that this is in reference
of pregnancy to womanhood. Professor Phillis Schessler, who wrote about
the surrogacy case of baby M, states, some people want
(29:30):
to do away with reality, but biology is real. Biology exists,
and biology is what will get you pregnant. Yeah. Well
then speaking of baby UM. So the case of Baby
M which again we talked about just previously, was a
huge case that went to the Supreme Court in nineteen eight.
So this was all before gestational, This is all traditional theracasy.
(29:54):
So what happened in New Jersey in nineteen eighty five
a woman agreed through a contract to be traditional surrogate
to a couple named the Sterns. The wife of the
intended parents had multiple school roses and felt she would
not be able to endure the pregnancy like a lot
of physical limitations, and went through the surrogacy route. The
(30:14):
woman was compensated ten thousand dollars which would equate to
about twenty two dollars today to carry the pregnancy to
term and would relinquish parental rights to the Sterns. But
after giving birth, the woman changed her mind and gave
up the money to keep the child and then was
sued by the Sterns. Yes um, and in the lower
courts the Sterns won. However, in the Supreme Court the
(30:37):
decision was reversed. They invalidated the contract stating that it
was in quote affront to public policy and the intended
payment was quote illegal, perhaps criminal, and potentially degrading two women. However,
custody was given to the Sterns under the premise that
it was in the child's best interests. But cases often
(31:00):
used as a reason commercial surgacy should not be legalized
the case for traditional surgacy and gestational surrogacy. Um, these
cases are often seen as completely different, right, which is
how it stated in much of the laws throughout the country.
But yeah, I found that interesting because it's still reminiscent.
Like I found an article that was written in twenty
eighteen talking about it. And obviously, as we were talking
(31:22):
about the one reporter who had actually she was the
one that chronicled the whole event, miss Chessler, from this
case and kind of became known for it. So therefore
she her commentary later on was very important because she
was that you know, eye witness of that, and it
reverberated to the they're gonna it's almost like a lifetime movie.
And I think it was a lifetime movie where the
(31:45):
woman was taking trying to take back the child, and
how it affected the young lady she was it was
a baby girl. So and some of the controversy comes
from the conservative standpoint of the heteronormative ideas of family,
which could also again lean to the continued bait of
women's bodies and who has authority of it and you know,
the lack of autonomy of it. And while researching the subject,
(32:07):
there are many sites dedicated to the fact that segacy
again was just a slap in the face two families,
traditional families, and to children's rights, and that surgacy quote
deliberately separated the child from the only mother that they
have ever known the moment they were born. So it's
kind of weird, Like what again, this makes me question
(32:28):
why many of the conservatives would suggest adoption as an
alternative for anything for abortion. You know, we hear this
a lot. If that's the case, if they arguing for that,
I'm like, this doesn't This doesn't a lie. This doesn't
a lie. I don't understand. I mean again, it definitely
feels very much like, Okay, we've made it so difficult
(32:49):
for women to have agency over their reproductive rates. They're
making money off of it. No, never, right, that's wrong.
On top of this, there is also, yes, this constant
fear of human trafficking that's been a threat throughout what
we're talking about, and please know that it is considered
by these sites human trafficking even though it's legal. Seriously,
(33:12):
agencies they're talking about, As you said, Samantha, that doesn't
mean there aren't issues, but they are legal circusy agencies.
I mean when we talk about human trafficking, we talked
about it so much with Bridget just how they're using
this almost as a caveat to so many things to
trigger a response and this is kind of on that
(33:34):
same lines again, so many shady practices, and this is
we're talking about human lives. I feel the same way
when it comes to adoption, that we need to regulate
and have this conversation and hold people accountable for sure,
and just the limits that it can be abused. Absolutely
again I go for both of those things. But like
I said, when we have just constantly using these words
(33:56):
where it's like it doesn't mean when you think it
means anymore, Yeah, are you're just using it essentially. Another
reason these sites state for being against surrogacy is that
it has a negative impact on the children, even giving
specific accounts from children who were surrogates stating that they
felt like um their lives were negatively impacted. However, in
(34:17):
a study led by Susan Golembach, director of the Center
of Family Research at the University of Cambridge, there were
questions of adjustment problems at a younger age about age
seven four children born through surrogacy, but it also depended
on the openness of the birth with their children, and
that by age ten there were no differences in behavioral
(34:38):
adjustments with their children they were studying, is what they found.
So I have not found many studies. I did find
a couple of studies about those who were surrogates and
that if that impacted the children, and apparently it really didn't. Again,
I feel like this could be set along the lines
of adoption as well, like if you're openly communicating what
(35:00):
this is and who why this is, that there were
less likely any real disruptions and adjustments and behaviors even
though people like but but it's the lying part that
often will affect young children, especially if they feel like
something that's been hidden and or that it is a stigma.
So if you're ready at the in the butt, oftentimes
(35:22):
they can And even in the baby m case, the
young woman who was the baby there was in question
said that she was fine. It's quoted from two thousand
seven because apparently she does not care to be in
the limelight, so we don't read much about her, which
I don't blame her, but she stays, I love my
family when it comes to the Sterns, very much and
(35:42):
very happy to be with them. I'm very happy I
ended up with them, and I love them. They're my
best friends in the whole world. That's all I have
to say about it. So again there's different cases and
conversations about who is affected by what. Of course, we
know that these similar sites will also have a conversation
about how gpt Q parents affect children as well and
the upbringing up children. So I would take that all
(36:05):
with a little grain of salt, and again not a
lot of numbers out there. It's kind of funny to
me how sperm that it is really given seems to
have less stigma than the actual mothers going through this,
and it is the mothers who are often judge more
so than the fathers in that family. Yeah, in both cases,
like the surrogate and the mother. Yes, such, Yes, this
(36:27):
is all very very interesting and as we said at
the top, listeners, if you have any experience or knowledge
about any of this, please write to us. You can
email us at Stephanie and mom Stuff at ihart meia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast or on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You.
Thanks as always too, are super producer Christina. Thank you Christina,
(36:47):
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told
You the protection of iHeart Radio. For more podcast for
my Heart Radio, visit the heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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