May 17, 2024 • 41 mins
Recently, online dating service Bumble went viral for all the wrong reasons with an ad campaign. We break down what went wrong, why people were so angry, and the company's response.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephan
Never told you a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh and we are coming back talking about dating and
it's glory.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I guess not really. So we've had a.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Few episodes about dating and dating sites. Of course, something
controversial just happened and that means we have to revisit it.
And I feel like a majority of people who are
on social media are on any of the dating sites.
I already know what we're probably going to jump into.
The boy did they put themselves in a bit of trouble?
(00:48):
And what's so funny is this is going to be
a shorter episode because obviously we're getting real trendy jump
on social media controversy. But just the response and the
things that are happening with this company. It's very interesting
because we've already talked about the fact that dating sites
are not as popular anymore. We've been inundated with so
(01:11):
many types. Now they are all going to subscription base,
which is really annoying. Can we We're going to eventually
have to talk about why everything's going to subscription Yeah,
because they want you to pay forever like this. This
scheme is driving me nuts. Yeah, it doesn't make sense
because like I was playing a phone game Annie, I'm
(01:31):
going on a tangent and they have a subscription system,
and I was like, wait, what a phone game. I've
seen where you have to buy things, which I've gotten
myself into trouble, like quit buying.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Packages and like packs and stuff, right, but.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Now most of some of them have just been like, hey,
just pay twenty dollars a month and you can have
this double access.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
It was like, what, Yeah, I've been looking at that
in terms of what I subscribed you to during the pandemic. Yeah,
because we were all isolated and we were all at
least for a time, I think it faded away, but
for a time we were all trying to We'll do
virtual video game sessions together, will do virtual watch sessions together,
(02:13):
and they were all subscription based. Yeah, so some of
them I've been looking over and I'm debating, Okay, I
really don't need that one anymore. This one I get,
I kind of but yeah, that whole.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Like I'm very upset anyway, that was a whole different tangent.
But yeah, everything in the subscription systems and dating sites.
I have been doing this, like Honestly, for the longest time,
the subscription ones were rare, so match dot Com e Harmony,
and people didn't use that as much because they were
that base and you had to do like the multi
whatever tier, your gold, you're this. Well, then everybody else
(02:50):
started jumping on, including Tender, including Bumble, which is what
we're talking about. And though yes I still have I'm
talking about how which I hate the data system in
which they just make money monthly. They do have a
free service, and for a long time you were like cool,
geared towards women, all these things. Bumble who boasts about
(03:11):
its system allowing for women to have control when it
comes to dating and relationships and even talks about men
being able to find women who are strong, independent women
if that's their type, literally says that and some of
the things in it, and I was like, oh, who
did this press release? That's not cute, but okay, And
we have praised them because every now and again they
(03:32):
do some things like you know, banning the toxic people
men specifically, and those who are predators, like they oftentimes
would seemingly take control of that and be like, we
want to protect the women. The system of the Best
Friends or friends finding system, which was newer, or they
were one of the ones that popularized that the networking,
(03:53):
so it seemed all cool. And I was looking at
their social media because there's so many things going on
and there's so many confusing things on this.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But first let's.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Talk about their recent ad in one of their for
their business, which, by the way, their business has not
been going well. All of the lists that I've been
looking at for the top five dating sites, they have
not been included, which surprised me. I honestly thought it
would be there. The old faithful again Eharmonymatch, dot com
and even okay Cuban have been on there and with
(04:25):
some surprises like Zeusk made it on there.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I was like, oh okay.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Interesting her which is a queer site for women, so
I was like, oh cool, they made it on to
some list, but Bumble was nowhere to be found that
I could see. And yeah, they had a layoff about
around thirty percent of their staff around three hundred and
fifty people recently, as well as a net loss of
thirty two million in the last quarter of twenty twenty three.
(04:51):
They and it's gotten bad. I think he's like forty
two percent net loss in the last year, so not
doing well. They are not doing well, but they decided
to go down a uh kind of trendy. You know
how social media people have been praised for being sarcastic
and off the cuff edgy essentially.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I guess this is where they were going.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
With this, because, Uh, it was kind of a clapping
back at women who have decided not to date. So
I guess bullying them into dating with billboards saying you
know full well a vow of celibacy.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Is not the answer. Who the are you talking to? Bumble?
Excuse me?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That statement in itself, the way is phrased, would make
me want to fight, like.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Who are you? And why are you in my space?
Shut the up right? Excuse me?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Oh you say I can't watch me like? That makes
me want to do it more. And then another one
that says thou shalt not give updating and become a nun, which.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Is like an offensive. There's so many things.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Offensive at this level, like why are you going after
religion in one way? Why are you using like blasphemous
speak for people who may be religious, like what the
what the hell.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
What the hell?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Indeed exactly, but also that's a very dichotomy. That is not.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So if I don't want to, I guess I'll Vietnam.
That's only choice.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, because I'm so like isolated in this that there's
only religion.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Religion is the only term for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But of course, as I have had this visceral reaction
and you're having this reaction, responses are not are as expected.
They're not excited, they don't get this. Most of the reactions,
again were visceral, many trying to figure out whether it
was a joke and how it even gotten approved, Like
who the actually looked to see if I could find
their marketing and advertising person. I did not find those
(06:55):
numbers or those names, because I want to blast them,
like what were you thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Was it a man?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And it has to be a man, some would tell me,
because it sounds like what a man would say when
they're rejected, you know, trying to in order to like
talk you into dating them, Like this is what it seems,
And this is of course a very heteronormative conversation the
way I am having it, But that's what it is,
almost the sexist level of like, excuse me, you want
to do this as pr Daily dot Com put it quote.
(07:22):
Social media users castigated Bumble for insinuating that people couldn't
make celibacy a personal choice. Others also read the message
as supporting patriarchal notions that insinuate women can't make their
own sexual choices, which was like the underline of like, really,
why would you? What are you trying to say? This
is not selling it. Someone was talking about this, you know,
(07:44):
only leads to hookup culture, which can be toxic in
itself and really is patriarchal and sexist in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
The reactions have.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Been quite entertaining a lot of conversations, and we want
to read some of those off from ink dot com.
They wrote on x Twitter, for example, one you just
said they were shocked by the at Bubble ads, saying
a vow for celibacy is not the answer, and noted
that in a world fighting for respect and autonomy over
our bodies, is appalling to see a dating platform undermine
(08:13):
women's choices. Wasn't this app supposed to empower women to
date on their terms. Taking a different track, another user
explained to the brand that asexuality is a sexual orientation
and advised Bubble to do better. Another commentator wondered if
Bubble had quote put millions of dollars into the failed
ad campaign, and questioned, wtf is happening during these ideation meetings.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I can't I really I can't imagine what they were
thinking with these like this is funny, this is gonna
be this is gonna be real funny.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right, everybody's gonna love this.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, it just feels really out of touch because I
feel like, definitely in terms of the access to reprojective
rights and abortion right now, it feels out of touch.
It's all so like we've talked about this before that
I feel there's a strange thing, and they went about
(09:06):
even this strange thing in the worst way. But there's
a there's like a idea that is held that the
liberated feminist woman must want a lot of sex, and
so I feel like they were like leaning into that,
but as you said, they were doing it in like
the most shame. Something's wrong with you. Let's bring in religion,
(09:29):
which a lot of people have issues with anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, I'm not really sure why they thought condescending was
the way to go.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, it's like you said, it feels kind of bullying.
It's like, or what you're doing it wrong? Subscribe to
our service.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Let's do this. I got you.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But like, it's funny because a couple of other posts
like if you go onto any of their social media
bumble social media, people are angry in writing things. In
one of the comments, it makes a great point when
they say, run an ad campaign telling men how to
write better bios, take better photos, how to actually hold
a conversation and string basic sentence together and not randomly
(10:10):
bring up sex in the middle of a normal conversation.
Then men will have more success on your app. This
isn't women's problems to fix. Yeah, again, she's not wrong. Yeah,
I don't know the numbers though that probably we probably
could look and see how many men do subscribe to Bumble,
and there are may be more men than women at
this point, and that might be the problem. But yeah,
(10:32):
if you don't, if you really want men to be
enticing for women or people to be enticing for women
as in general, but this very head normative idea, then
you might want to teach how to do this right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, I mean that is a really a good point
because it is placing it and That's always been the
thing with bumble right is you know, women take the
first move, which has its pluses and minuses, but this
is like really putting it on. There's no.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Right weirdly too, So this happened, and then two days
ago we're going to talk about their apology. On their site,
they had a like they're having a crossover promotion with
several of the influencers that's wearing a shirt that says
exhausted with like you know the old school paintings, you know,
how they become memes of a woman like lounging and
(11:26):
in these people who are influencers who have been working
with mumbled to cross promote, but exhausted and tired and single,
Like I feel like they're telling you what's wrong, exhausted
and tired of dating and single? Like I feel like, yeah,
you're doing the like, how are you doing both of the.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I think you understand what they're trying to say, right,
and you're trying to put okay what Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
So it's very like.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
They're they're advertising is oh thoroughly confusing. As in fact,
they've been trying to do these new things recently and
it hasn't been successful Another article written in today dot
Com writes a sense removed video ad posted to x
Twitter on April thirtieth was also part of the campaign.
In it, a woman joins an all female religious group,
(12:21):
but later it becomes infatuated by a shirtless man shrimming
the hedges. That night, another woman gives her a phone
with a bumble loading. The first woman then leaves the group.
In the text reads, we've changed so you don't have to.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
What are you doing? Bumble? That's so bizarre, Like.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
We're gonna help change your mind. Like it's such a
weird trope.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, Like here's this.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
With this whole religious group thing.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Hot shirtless man give up what I must assume might
be a pretty serious decision. You may be a nun.
You don't just become a nun. There can be drama
behind it, for sure, but you don't just become a nun.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And this article goes on. Many critics of the ads
have said they minimize the variety of reasons people, especially women,
may choose to be celibate. And again, this also brought
out the whole four B movement, which we have talked
about repeatedly. It has grown, y'all like people are actually
taking this seriously to the fact that men are getting mad.
Men from the US Western culture are getting mad at
(13:31):
this whole ideal and saying things like you're gonna be
alone and sad, and we've already talked about how funny
that is, and you're like, I don't think you understand
what makes us sad. Being alone isn't necessarily yet you
can't be don't get me wrong, but that's not necessarily
the whole reason about what's.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Going on today.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Dot com decided to add some more Bumble needs to
back off and stop trying to shame women into coming
back into the apps run as targeted at men, telling
them to be normal once again. You can date whilst
being celibate, So it makes no sense anyway. You're enforcing
a male entitlement to our bodies, which I think is interesting.
And then they say, Bumble doing a campaign attempting to
(14:12):
shame celibacy accidence is an unserious way to tell the
public y'all are nervous. It's also a very offensive way
to tell your female customers that you're profiting off of
their legs.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Being open blunt to the point.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of like.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Y'all don't need all that.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, you really really don't. As you said, and we've
discussed before, there is a lot of dating apps are
hemorrhaging there game crisis, but there are reasons for that
(14:55):
that we've talked about that are well known, and it
is a lot of like predatory male behavior or just
like a waste of your time. You go through so
many profiles and you're like, okay, this guy this no good,
no good, no good. So yeah, this does feel like
it's leaning back on very patriarchal ideas of women. Your
(15:18):
time is running out. You want the man, right, like,
you're not gonna be abstinent what that would be. You
don't want to be a frud You've got to get
them in so right, not addressing the real issues, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That's I think that again, that's a big point of
what they're saying, what many of the critics are saying.
Of course, realizing that they may have made a mistake,
but they they did make an official apology and this
is what they wrote on their on their different social
media posts to our beloved Bumble community, we made a mistake.
Our ads referencing celibacy would attempt to lean into a
(15:58):
community frustrated by modern dating, and then, instead of bringing
joy in humor, we unintentionally did the opposite. Some of
the perspectives we heard were from those who shared that
celibacy is the only answer when reproductive rights are continuously
restricted from others for whom celibacy is a choice one
that we respect, and from the asexual community, for whom
(16:19):
celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance which should
not be diminished. We are also aware that for many,
celibacy may be brought on by harm or trauma. For years,
Bumble has passionately stood up for women and marginalized communities
and their right to fully exercise personal choice.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
We didn't live up.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
To these values with this campaign, and we apologize for
the harm it costs. So here's what we're doing. We're
removing these ads from our global marketing campaign. Bumble will
be making a donation to the National Domestic Violence Hotline,
among other organizations, as a part of our ongoing efforts
to support the work being done around the world to
support women, marginalized communities, and those impact by abuse. We
(17:01):
will also be offering these partners this billboard space to
display an ad of their choice for the duration of
our reserved billboard time. Please keep speaking up and telling
us how we can be better. We care about you
and it will always be here for you with love
and sincere appreciation.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Bumble.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So they're trying to come through with fixing things. I
guess that's the way we can say. Of course, the reaction.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Not so forgiving.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
One of the responses were but they are still not
getting it. It's not only about reproductive rites or asexuality.
For many women across the country, is because dating straight
men has become just not at all worth the time
and effort it takes because men are not held to
a higher standard regarding empathy, emotional intelligence, maturity or communication.
We are exhausted, which is one of the shirts they
(17:55):
have on there, and being celibate is easy then dealing
with a dumpster fire that is trying to date as
a straight woman, to be honest, regardless of age. This
ad campaign was in such poor taste, especially because they're
supposed to be advocating for women and not exploiting them
to the lower standards from the atrocious hookup culture.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Do better, Bumble. So they were not happy.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So many of them were like you know the celibacy
community isn't pressed. We didn't ask for your allyship. You
dressed these ladies as nuns to insinuate that celibate women
are recluse and limited.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
We aren't.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
We are actually happy over here. Really, I really appreciated
that one. Another one wrote, only sorry because you were
losing customers and they are losing customers. And then another
one wrote, you didn't lean into a community. You leaned
into the feelings of men. You had no regard for women.
You made it a woman's problem to fix the lack
of sex men are having. How about addressing why women
(18:54):
are not interested in having a relationship with men. Maybe
you tell the men to fix themselves instead of the
mean to give in do better.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I think that's that's pretty powerful statement.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I mean, yeah, well that's exactly what happened. And whether
or not they thought it was funny or who thought
it was that was right on point. You made it
a woman's problem to fix the lack of sex men
are having, which is something that is continually being said
and it is a big proponent of rape culture. On
top of control, like this ownership that men have over
(19:31):
women and that they are owed sex.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yes, which we've also discussed a lot before. That is
extremely detrimental, especially when you're younger and you're trying to
figure out things that you like and wants, and then
this pressure, this pressure comes in to do like if, oh,
if I don't have sex with him, he'll leave right,
(19:56):
He'll find someone else. So even if I don't want it,
I'm going to do it. This actually stirred up a
memory for me too. I uh once was with two
dudes that one of them I later found out like,
had a big crush on me. I didn't know this
at the time, but he said he was celibate, and
(20:18):
I just was like, yeah, okay, And that guy we
were with was like, oh, that's cool, and he asked me.
I was like, no, I've had sex, and he's like, oh.
But I feel like if I'd said I was celibate,
he would have also. But with the guy, he just
was like, oh cool. But for me, as a woman,
he felt like, oh oh no. He felt very ready
(20:43):
to weigh in on that situation because he had had
sex for sure, but not me. Not cool.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Oh, I think you're cool. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It's just weird that we put that on women. It's
like it comes the have you had sex in you're slut,
But if you haven't had sex, well you're.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
None, right and you must be miserable.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
All right, and you're unhappy quote unquote, which is again
such an odd statement, Like there's so many we've gotten
so far, like you have said, from women be liberated
to if you're not liberated, then you are stunted and
oppressed and unhappy.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right, And it's really unfortunate because I think that if
you want to have consensual sex, totally support you shouldn't
be judged for it. Should be should be able to
use an app and feel safe. That would be great.
If you don't want to that should also be okay.
(21:49):
But I feel like we've really reduced it into an
either or that is not healthy.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You could be a liberated woman who's like I actually
not into sex.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's fine, that's good, that's your choice. That's the conversation.
And it's kind of to this level of it's such
a weird level of like feminists and anti feminists, like
it's being used as both.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yes, I've had a lot of I've had a
lot of thoughts about this lately. I want to come
back and do this even though it's going to make
me really mad. But I've seen that happen a lot
recently in politics, where usually white women, conservative white women
(22:38):
are using feminist terminology now that they once never would
have but now they're using it and be like, oh,
you won't let me speak because I'm a woman, and
I'm like, no, the rules are it's not.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Your term to speak, that's the rule.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So I do think there's something that's happening that's a
flattening of what femine and intersexual feminism is right, and
it's concerning me, and honestly it is.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I think there's the bigger conversation is that we we
need to remember. I think we're so caught up in
fighting about feminism. M that's the best perspective is like
intersectionality is different. Like I wish we could we came
in the episode talking about how feminism was a bad
word and it's just now being misconstrued, not feminism in
(23:29):
its theory and what it is, but like.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Of who is using it and why? Yes, and I did.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I wanted to look it up because again that conversation
is like why are you telling women that they need
to have sex, that you're not going to be able
to do this type of thing. Interestingly, in twenty twenty three,
the gender ratio goes male to female three to one.
There's only thirty four point seven users that are female
or that are women for Bumble as of twenty twenty three.
(23:57):
So this is not the way. Why would you You've
lost so many of your main people, why would.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
You do this, right, especially because they've gone away from
this now. But it was, Yes, women had to reach
out first.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I think they they still do technically, unless maybe they
have like the premium.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think pretty recently. Oh really, they've gone away from it,
and it could be because of those numbers.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
That might be why. Yeah, because I don't know what
the like.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Maybe it is a different tier. I'm not sure, but
I'm I'm pretty sure they've gone away from women have
to make the first move, which was their whole thing.
And it would make sense if me like a third
of their users are women.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Right, right, So looks like they have different Bumble boosts
versus premium, and that's significant if you want to get
the premium for your for life, which is really sad.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Hey maybe you just want to date maybe, Okay, that's right.
So I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'm sorry, but if you're trying to get in here
for relationship relationships and that's that, I'm sorry. But it's
two hundred and twenty nine to ninety nine for lifetime
subscription for Mumble Premium, which apparently allows you see who's
already liked you, advanced filters for your feed, It gives
you incognito mode, and travel mode lets you change locations. Wait,
(25:24):
they don't let you do that now.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I used to be able to.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Oh man, I used to be able to ten years ago.
It's been a minute.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I have ever dated anyone off that one though. I
never could make the move.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Honestly, I would have a tough time making the move.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Which is a lot of people have talked about that too,
that are like, you know, it's a great idea, but
sometimes it's just doesn't work that way, Like if people
are too shy, girls don't know how to start, like
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Well again, also, if the dating online dating community is
so toxic, then yeah, I'm nervous it's going to be
somebody who's going to send me a ticic. I mean,
right immediately, I think I never had that. I can't
I think I just have that face. Don't pull me.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's a face a lot in this episode. But yeah,
like it's it's I'm actually surprised. I thought it would
be the other way around, or at least even but man,
three to.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
One, that's significant.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and then you run these ads like you need to.
I don't think you understand. Why are you doing the
push and pull thing? Who do you have on your
advertising team?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Is it the dudes at the hookup dudes? Because this
is bad? Like? What really? What were you thinking?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean, knowing this now, I think they're thinking, as
some of the other users pointed out, they're losing a
lot of money, They're losing a lot of users. Maybe
we'll go back to things that's tried and true, patriarchal
methods that people have used before. But try to dress
it up as some weird, weird empowerment message that it's
(27:02):
definitely not.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
There's so many things, there's so many things that I
have questions about. But yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
At least they are giving that space to other I
don't know, I don't know what space they have used
it for. I haven't looked that far into it. Outside
the controversy and their apology which was given two days ago,
or today's May sixteenth, twenty twenty four. So I guess
like May fourteenth is when they decided, oh yeah, we
(27:30):
sicked up.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
As I'm looking at their social media posts in general,
like nothing, nothing is a standout outside of yeah, the
fact that they had no they have several influencers having
that exhausted T shirt on.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Maybe I don't know, because like this one influencer, she
wrote in her caption Exhausted Girl Summer at Bumble wake
Up Call. Maybe it's telling them to wake up and
stop being exhausted. It doesn't play doesn't sound good, It
doesn't play into what I think.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
No, that does not sound good.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Single, fabulous and exhausted from the dating scene wake up call.
If you're single and fabulous and exhausted, then.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Why do you want to put yourself from the dating scene.
Sounds like you're good. It sounds like you're great. You
look good.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And the shirt this influencer looks great. I think her
name is Tessa. She looks amazing. But yeah, like it,
I'm baffled in the slip that they have. I'm not
really sure Again, they did not think this through again,
I have not seen maybe these posts were up up
on social media. I think they were only billboards from
what I gathered, they just ended up spreading wide and
(28:48):
far did not go well. They forgot that social media
was a thing and going viral is not necessarily great.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
But yeah, I think it.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Makes me sad to see something that was women empowering
at the beginning owned by a woman who went through
her own stuff at Tinder, did her own thing, was
making money doing her little thing, and then it comes
to this and being like, yeah, you're just like every
corporation that we've seen. You want our money, you want
women to build you up and hold you up, but
(29:21):
when it comes to caring for the women, you do
minimally and then just crash and burn.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So it seems, yeah, it's a very status quo type
of add because I've been thinking about this too, about
gender dads, and like we've moved on from these, haven't.
We can't, we we don't need to do this anymore,
but people are still doing it because it worked once
(29:49):
upon a time, but now we're yeah, things are going
viral and we're having opinions about it and it's not
working like it used to uh and still companies. If
I feel like they rely on it, they rely on
that structure, that kind of patriarchy.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
You've got to.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Pay for it women or else right, you'll never get
a man. Oh dear, oh no threatened me with a
good time.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
J I would be interested to know if the usage
has actually gone down, because the numbers that I'm seeing
are not showing that necessarily, but it's consistently showing that.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
It's mainly more men than women, and.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
As in fact, a Pew research article talking about it
said women who have used online dating platforms in the
past year twenty twenty four are more likely to feel
overwhelmed by the number of messages they get, while men
are more likely to feel insecure about a lack of message.
So I feel like, I feel like for anybody who
(31:17):
is trying to think of what to do, like if
they're trying to make money and looking like at apps
and sites, they need to put these in consideration, Like
they need to think about how this is vetted. And
I think there are some that we have seen that
have done better with that, but then they've changed because
they weren't getting enough influx. And again, none of these
(31:38):
are sponsors obviously.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Not speaking very highly of.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Them, so but none of them are really sponsors. But
I know that coffee meets bagel. Their intention was only
giving you a FeMn at a time. Maybe that has changed,
and then I feel like hinged with something similar where
you're supposed to know at least someone that they know,
and that has changed too. I think cans become a
little more popular since they first started, but I know,
(32:08):
like the original intents were different, so I feel like
I don't know if they just weren't making enough, or
they're trying to catch up to Tender, which was always
been a part of the hookup culture, so they have
their own thing again, but it's mainly men.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, And I feel like so many companies. It makes
me sad because I'm like, what you started out as
I liked, and then capitalism really got the clause in
and you became moved away from that. But it is
ultimately an issue of rape culture and dating culture, and
(32:46):
it's isolating and sad because I feel like people do
want to get together, but reasonably women don't feel safe
and men then feel and secure hurt. They're not getting
any right messages or nothing compared to what women are getting.
(33:06):
But that's that's how it is. So your billboard is
not gonna help, all right, we don't try to change
right situation.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And yeah, coming back to the Pew research, it says
younger women who have used dating sites or apps stand
out for experiencing unwanted behaviors on these platforms. It goes
on to say a majority of women under fifty who
have used dating sites or apps, fifty six percent say
they have been sent explicit sexually explicit messages or images
they didn't ask for, and about four in ten have
(33:38):
had someone continue to contact them after they said they
were not interested. That was about forty three percent of them,
or have been called an offensive name that's thirty seven
percent of them, and roughly one intent of this group,
eleven percent have received threats of physical harm. But yeah,
so you see, like one in ten have received threats
of physical harm. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah? I think it's unreasonable to expect anything from an
online dating encounter in the beginning stages other than let's see,
if maybe I'm interested, right, I don't think that should
like any rejection from that if it's politely like, hey,
I'm not interested, that should not be a threat of violence.
(34:21):
It should not be like I'm going to send you
a dick pic anyway. It should not be like that's
how relationships work. You don't just like.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You do.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You have a little bit of a back and forth.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
First, right, right, I mean if she asks you, if
they ask you for it, sure go for it. Is
cold consent, right, you do you? But outside of that,
what And that Pew research paper was actually twenty twenty three,
so it's a year old, so who knows, because like again,
I haven't seen much since then. I don't see much
since then. I'm sure our new one will come out
(34:54):
if it hasn't already, and I.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Just had seen it.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
But the fact that that at least half the women
like half like under fifty, which is the majority of
people like. It's gotten more popular for fifty and over,
but for a chunk of the people and users, they're
under fifty typically, And to have to deal with that
constantly and then have this kind of ad that really
shames women for say they don't want to have sex.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Excuse me, yeah, absolutely, especially when the exhausted part is
part of their campaign.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Seemingly no women are saying they're exhausted. But you want
to add this to their you want to lame and guilt? Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Turn it on them like they're not trying hard enough
or something. It is on you that you're exhausted, actually, and.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
You should do this more right, whether you want to
what's cowarts? What?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah? Yeah, I had not heard about this until you
brought it to my attention, but it is quite a.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's a buzz around my my FYP and I was like,
this is this is not real? I really thought it
was a joke at first. It's like, that's not true.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
That's nice.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I had to make sure because it was around April.
I was, I guess this this is still like an
older April fool one.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
What's happening? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And then just the last bit, I did see a
see in an article where it says Tender downloads are falling,
but the dating app era isn't over yet, so they
are falling. They apparently fell by at least eight percent
from last year to just below ten million users, so
they're declining. Like we kind of knew that was going
to happen. We kind of knew it was happening. The
(36:38):
peak times were twenty sixteen and twenty eighteen, it looks like,
which is an interesting time so on I guess I
was on it then I was one of those. Twenty
twenty had that increase as well. Not surprising, but yeah,
it is pretty significantly lower, definitely the lowest it's been
since twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, and we talked about that a little bit in
the recent ISH episode we did about what's going on
with online dating, and in that episode we a lot
of people, especially younger people, cited exhaustion, like just being
tired with it. But you mentioned that there's been a
(37:21):
growth in matchmaking, and after you said that, I started
to see that in a long places. So I do
want to come back and look at that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yes, I think it's fascinating. Like again, I've realized different
cultures still use matchmaking and have used it for a
long time. I know South Korea actually does. It is
a big industry and I didn't know this un till later.
I thought that was a K drama thing. But I
mean again, I think that there's this conversation of like
(37:51):
matching in the socioeconomic status wise, so they have this
level of matching. Again, I feel like that's so outdated
but I'm not rich, and no one tried to set
me up with a rich person, So maybe that's why
I didn't know about it. Personal experience does not apply here.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Right, Right, That's why I'm interested in it because I've
only heard about it in usually rich circles, right, But
I did see it come up in a lot of
articles that we're talking about. People are tired of online dating.
They're turning to matchmakers. So I would love if any
(38:31):
listeners is willing to share stories. Yeah, I would love
to know more about it, because I mean, that's truly.
The sad thing about a lot of this is I
have so many friends who want to find that person, right,
and they're doing they're doing the thing. And for a
lot of people, online dating is very convenient, but it
(38:52):
comes with this risk. It comes like all dating does.
But it to me, like hearing those numbers and hearing
some of the stories my friends have told me, I
just hate that it comes with this risk.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
But you're just trying to find like happiness and someone
to have companionship with in one and ten you might
get threatened with violence, that's right.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That's that's a fifty to fifty chance that you're going
to get dick pic. Yeah, that's actually harassed and that
you're going to be stopped like this. These are not
good numbers.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, And it makes me so mad when like usually
men get mad and they're like women won't they never
come out and day it won't do this? Why here
you go?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
You're the prime example. Again. I still go back to
that one.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Dude.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
It was like, I know, girl, like you don't date
me as is like opener and I was like what correct, well,
all right, definitely not kind of define, not kind of
respond black black block, right, I don't know why you're threatening.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Me, like it's gonna be like, oh, he's so attractive.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I love when they're automatically mad at me for existing.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Right. I didn't solicit solicit this, none of this. I
didn't say hey to you, I cruise by. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
I mean once again, like with said normal interaction, you
would at least like hey, right, it's it's upsetting and baffling.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
That's upsetting, yes, and it's worse when companies don't recognize
that this can be upsetting.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
It's very limited, a very limited view that was on
display with this advertising campaign, and it was not a
good one.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Nope, this was not this was not this was nice?
Was hard? Not it? Well?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Listeners, If you have any thoughts about this, we're always
interested what's going on in the dating world online or not.
Any thoughts about this advertisement or ratch making, please us know.
You can email ust Stuff idio mom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I
Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have a
t boil at store, and we have a book you
(41:10):
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always
too our super producer Christine or executive producer Maya, and
our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I Never Told You direction of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeart Radio ap Apple Podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Anny and Samantha. I'm welcome to Stephan
Never told you a production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Oh and we are coming back talking about dating and
it's glory.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I guess not really. So we've had a.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Few episodes about dating and dating sites. Of course, something
controversial just happened and that means we have to revisit it.
And I feel like a majority of people who are
on social media are on any of the dating sites.
I already know what we're probably going to jump into.
The boy did they put themselves in a bit of trouble?
(00:48):
And what's so funny is this is going to be
a shorter episode because obviously we're getting real trendy jump
on social media controversy. But just the response and the
things that are happening with this company. It's very interesting
because we've already talked about the fact that dating sites
are not as popular anymore. We've been inundated with so
(01:11):
many types. Now they are all going to subscription base,
which is really annoying. Can we We're going to eventually
have to talk about why everything's going to subscription Yeah,
because they want you to pay forever like this. This
scheme is driving me nuts. Yeah, it doesn't make sense
because like I was playing a phone game Annie, I'm
(01:31):
going on a tangent and they have a subscription system,
and I was like, wait, what a phone game. I've
seen where you have to buy things, which I've gotten
myself into trouble, like quit buying.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Packages and like packs and stuff, right, but.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
Now most of some of them have just been like, hey,
just pay twenty dollars a month and you can have
this double access.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
It was like, what, Yeah, I've been looking at that
in terms of what I subscribed you to during the pandemic. Yeah,
because we were all isolated and we were all at
least for a time, I think it faded away, but
for a time we were all trying to We'll do
virtual video game sessions together, will do virtual watch sessions together,
(02:13):
and they were all subscription based. Yeah, so some of
them I've been looking over and I'm debating, Okay, I
really don't need that one anymore. This one I get,
I kind of but yeah, that whole.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Like I'm very upset anyway, that was a whole different tangent.
But yeah, everything in the subscription systems and dating sites.
I have been doing this, like Honestly, for the longest time,
the subscription ones were rare, so match dot Com e Harmony,
and people didn't use that as much because they were
that base and you had to do like the multi
whatever tier, your gold, you're this. Well, then everybody else
(02:50):
started jumping on, including Tender, including Bumble, which is what
we're talking about. And though yes I still have I'm
talking about how which I hate the data system in
which they just make money monthly. They do have a
free service, and for a long time you were like cool,
geared towards women, all these things. Bumble who boasts about
(03:11):
its system allowing for women to have control when it
comes to dating and relationships and even talks about men
being able to find women who are strong, independent women
if that's their type, literally says that and some of
the things in it, and I was like, oh, who
did this press release? That's not cute, but okay, And
we have praised them because every now and again they
(03:32):
do some things like you know, banning the toxic people
men specifically, and those who are predators, like they oftentimes
would seemingly take control of that and be like, we
want to protect the women. The system of the Best
Friends or friends finding system, which was newer, or they
were one of the ones that popularized that the networking,
(03:53):
so it seemed all cool. And I was looking at
their social media because there's so many things going on
and there's so many confusing things on this.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
But first let's.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
Talk about their recent ad in one of their for
their business, which, by the way, their business has not
been going well. All of the lists that I've been
looking at for the top five dating sites, they have
not been included, which surprised me. I honestly thought it
would be there. The old faithful again Eharmonymatch, dot com
and even okay Cuban have been on there and with
(04:25):
some surprises like Zeusk made it on there.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
I was like, oh okay.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Interesting her which is a queer site for women, so
I was like, oh cool, they made it on to
some list, but Bumble was nowhere to be found that
I could see. And yeah, they had a layoff about
around thirty percent of their staff around three hundred and
fifty people recently, as well as a net loss of
thirty two million in the last quarter of twenty twenty three.
(04:51):
They and it's gotten bad. I think he's like forty
two percent net loss in the last year, so not
doing well. They are not doing well, but they decided
to go down a uh kind of trendy. You know
how social media people have been praised for being sarcastic
and off the cuff edgy essentially.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
I guess this is where they were going.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
With this, because, Uh, it was kind of a clapping
back at women who have decided not to date. So
I guess bullying them into dating with billboards saying you
know full well a vow of celibacy.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
Is not the answer. Who the are you talking to? Bumble?
Excuse me?
Speaker 2 (05:30):
That statement in itself, the way is phrased, would make
me want to fight, like.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Who are you? And why are you in my space?
Shut the up right? Excuse me?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Oh you say I can't watch me like? That makes
me want to do it more. And then another one
that says thou shalt not give updating and become a nun, which.
Speaker 3 (05:56):
Is like an offensive. There's so many things.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
Offensive at this level, like why are you going after
religion in one way? Why are you using like blasphemous
speak for people who may be religious, like what the
what the hell.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
What the hell?
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Indeed exactly, but also that's a very dichotomy. That is not.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
So if I don't want to, I guess I'll Vietnam.
That's only choice.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Yeah, because I'm so like isolated in this that there's
only religion.
Speaker 3 (06:28):
Religion is the only term for me. I don't know.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
But of course, as I have had this visceral reaction
and you're having this reaction, responses are not are as expected.
They're not excited, they don't get this. Most of the reactions,
again were visceral, many trying to figure out whether it
was a joke and how it even gotten approved, Like
who the actually looked to see if I could find
their marketing and advertising person. I did not find those
(06:55):
numbers or those names, because I want to blast them,
like what were you thinking?
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Was it a man?
Speaker 2 (07:00):
And it has to be a man, some would tell me,
because it sounds like what a man would say when
they're rejected, you know, trying to in order to like
talk you into dating them, Like this is what it seems,
And this is of course a very heteronormative conversation the
way I am having it, But that's what it is,
almost the sexist level of like, excuse me, you want
to do this as pr Daily dot Com put it quote.
(07:22):
Social media users castigated Bumble for insinuating that people couldn't
make celibacy a personal choice. Others also read the message
as supporting patriarchal notions that insinuate women can't make their
own sexual choices, which was like the underline of like, really,
why would you? What are you trying to say? This
is not selling it. Someone was talking about this, you know,
(07:44):
only leads to hookup culture, which can be toxic in
itself and really is patriarchal and sexist in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 3 (07:50):
The reactions have.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Been quite entertaining a lot of conversations, and we want
to read some of those off from ink dot com.
They wrote on x Twitter, for example, one you just
said they were shocked by the at Bubble ads, saying
a vow for celibacy is not the answer, and noted
that in a world fighting for respect and autonomy over
our bodies, is appalling to see a dating platform undermine
(08:13):
women's choices. Wasn't this app supposed to empower women to
date on their terms. Taking a different track, another user
explained to the brand that asexuality is a sexual orientation
and advised Bubble to do better. Another commentator wondered if
Bubble had quote put millions of dollars into the failed
ad campaign, and questioned, wtf is happening during these ideation meetings.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I'm not really sure.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
I can't I really I can't imagine what they were
thinking with these like this is funny, this is gonna
be this is gonna be real funny.
Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right, everybody's gonna love this.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, it just feels really out of touch because I
feel like, definitely in terms of the access to reprojective
rights and abortion right now, it feels out of touch.
It's all so like we've talked about this before that
I feel there's a strange thing, and they went about
(09:06):
even this strange thing in the worst way. But there's
a there's like a idea that is held that the
liberated feminist woman must want a lot of sex, and
so I feel like they were like leaning into that,
but as you said, they were doing it in like
the most shame. Something's wrong with you. Let's bring in religion,
(09:29):
which a lot of people have issues with anyway, right.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, I'm not really sure why they thought condescending was
the way to go.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, it's like you said, it feels kind of bullying.
It's like, or what you're doing it wrong? Subscribe to
our service.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Let's do this. I got you.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But like, it's funny because a couple of other posts
like if you go onto any of their social media
bumble social media, people are angry in writing things. In
one of the comments, it makes a great point when
they say, run an ad campaign telling men how to
write better bios, take better photos, how to actually hold
a conversation and string basic sentence together and not randomly
(10:10):
bring up sex in the middle of a normal conversation.
Then men will have more success on your app. This
isn't women's problems to fix. Yeah, again, she's not wrong. Yeah,
I don't know the numbers though that probably we probably
could look and see how many men do subscribe to Bumble,
and there are may be more men than women at
this point, and that might be the problem. But yeah,
(10:32):
if you don't, if you really want men to be
enticing for women or people to be enticing for women
as in general, but this very head normative idea, then
you might want to teach how to do this right.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, I mean that is a really a good point
because it is placing it and That's always been the
thing with bumble right is you know, women take the
first move, which has its pluses and minuses, but this
is like really putting it on. There's no.
Speaker 2 (11:03):
Right weirdly too, So this happened, and then two days
ago we're going to talk about their apology. On their site,
they had a like they're having a crossover promotion with
several of the influencers that's wearing a shirt that says
exhausted with like you know the old school paintings, you know,
how they become memes of a woman like lounging and
(11:26):
in these people who are influencers who have been working
with mumbled to cross promote, but exhausted and tired and single,
Like I feel like they're telling you what's wrong, exhausted
and tired of dating and single? Like I feel like, yeah,
you're doing the like, how are you doing both of the.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
I think you understand what they're trying to say, right,
and you're trying to put okay what Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
So it's very like.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
They're they're advertising is oh thoroughly confusing. As in fact,
they've been trying to do these new things recently and
it hasn't been successful Another article written in today dot
Com writes a sense removed video ad posted to x
Twitter on April thirtieth was also part of the campaign.
In it, a woman joins an all female religious group,
(12:21):
but later it becomes infatuated by a shirtless man shrimming
the hedges. That night, another woman gives her a phone
with a bumble loading. The first woman then leaves the group.
In the text reads, we've changed so you don't have to.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
What are you doing? Bumble? That's so bizarre, Like.
Speaker 2 (12:46):
We're gonna help change your mind. Like it's such a
weird trope.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
Yeah, Like here's this.
Speaker 3 (12:52):
With this whole religious group thing.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Hot shirtless man give up what I must assume might
be a pretty serious decision. You may be a nun.
You don't just become a nun. There can be drama
behind it, for sure, but you don't just become a nun.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
And this article goes on. Many critics of the ads
have said they minimize the variety of reasons people, especially women,
may choose to be celibate. And again, this also brought
out the whole four B movement, which we have talked
about repeatedly. It has grown, y'all like people are actually
taking this seriously to the fact that men are getting mad.
Men from the US Western culture are getting mad at
(13:31):
this whole ideal and saying things like you're gonna be
alone and sad, and we've already talked about how funny
that is, and you're like, I don't think you understand
what makes us sad. Being alone isn't necessarily yet you
can't be don't get me wrong, but that's not necessarily
the whole reason about what's.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Going on today.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Dot com decided to add some more Bumble needs to
back off and stop trying to shame women into coming
back into the apps run as targeted at men, telling
them to be normal once again. You can date whilst
being celibate, So it makes no sense anyway. You're enforcing
a male entitlement to our bodies, which I think is interesting.
And then they say, Bumble doing a campaign attempting to
(14:12):
shame celibacy accidence is an unserious way to tell the
public y'all are nervous. It's also a very offensive way
to tell your female customers that you're profiting off of
their legs.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Being open blunt to the point.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, I mean, it was kind of like.
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Y'all don't need all that.
Speaker 1 (14:32):
No, you really really don't. As you said, and we've
discussed before, there is a lot of dating apps are
hemorrhaging there game crisis, but there are reasons for that
(14:55):
that we've talked about that are well known, and it
is a lot of like predatory male behavior or just
like a waste of your time. You go through so
many profiles and you're like, okay, this guy this no good,
no good, no good. So yeah, this does feel like
it's leaning back on very patriarchal ideas of women. Your
(15:18):
time is running out. You want the man, right, like,
you're not gonna be abstinent what that would be. You
don't want to be a frud You've got to get
them in so right, not addressing the real issues, right, yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
That's I think that again, that's a big point of
what they're saying, what many of the critics are saying.
Of course, realizing that they may have made a mistake,
but they they did make an official apology and this
is what they wrote on their on their different social
media posts to our beloved Bumble community, we made a mistake.
Our ads referencing celibacy would attempt to lean into a
(15:58):
community frustrated by modern dating, and then, instead of bringing
joy in humor, we unintentionally did the opposite. Some of
the perspectives we heard were from those who shared that
celibacy is the only answer when reproductive rights are continuously
restricted from others for whom celibacy is a choice one
that we respect, and from the asexual community, for whom
(16:19):
celibacy can have a particular meaning and importance which should
not be diminished. We are also aware that for many,
celibacy may be brought on by harm or trauma. For years,
Bumble has passionately stood up for women and marginalized communities
and their right to fully exercise personal choice.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
We didn't live up.
Speaker 2 (16:38):
To these values with this campaign, and we apologize for
the harm it costs. So here's what we're doing. We're
removing these ads from our global marketing campaign. Bumble will
be making a donation to the National Domestic Violence Hotline,
among other organizations, as a part of our ongoing efforts
to support the work being done around the world to
support women, marginalized communities, and those impact by abuse. We
(17:01):
will also be offering these partners this billboard space to
display an ad of their choice for the duration of
our reserved billboard time. Please keep speaking up and telling
us how we can be better. We care about you
and it will always be here for you with love
and sincere appreciation.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Bumble.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
So they're trying to come through with fixing things. I
guess that's the way we can say. Of course, the reaction.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Not so forgiving.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
One of the responses were but they are still not
getting it. It's not only about reproductive rites or asexuality.
For many women across the country, is because dating straight
men has become just not at all worth the time
and effort it takes because men are not held to
a higher standard regarding empathy, emotional intelligence, maturity or communication.
We are exhausted, which is one of the shirts they
(17:55):
have on there, and being celibate is easy then dealing
with a dumpster fire that is trying to date as
a straight woman, to be honest, regardless of age. This
ad campaign was in such poor taste, especially because they're
supposed to be advocating for women and not exploiting them
to the lower standards from the atrocious hookup culture.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Do better, Bumble. So they were not happy.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So many of them were like you know the celibacy
community isn't pressed. We didn't ask for your allyship. You
dressed these ladies as nuns to insinuate that celibate women
are recluse and limited.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
We aren't.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
We are actually happy over here. Really, I really appreciated
that one. Another one wrote, only sorry because you were
losing customers and they are losing customers. And then another
one wrote, you didn't lean into a community. You leaned
into the feelings of men. You had no regard for women.
You made it a woman's problem to fix the lack
of sex men are having. How about addressing why women
(18:54):
are not interested in having a relationship with men. Maybe
you tell the men to fix themselves instead of the
mean to give in do better.
Speaker 3 (19:02):
I think that's that's pretty powerful statement.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
I mean, yeah, well that's exactly what happened. And whether
or not they thought it was funny or who thought
it was that was right on point. You made it
a woman's problem to fix the lack of sex men
are having, which is something that is continually being said
and it is a big proponent of rape culture. On
top of control, like this ownership that men have over
(19:31):
women and that they are owed sex.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yes, which we've also discussed a lot before. That is
extremely detrimental, especially when you're younger and you're trying to
figure out things that you like and wants, and then
this pressure, this pressure comes in to do like if, oh,
if I don't have sex with him, he'll leave right,
(19:56):
He'll find someone else. So even if I don't want it,
I'm going to do it. This actually stirred up a
memory for me too. I uh once was with two
dudes that one of them I later found out like,
had a big crush on me. I didn't know this
at the time, but he said he was celibate, and
(20:18):
I just was like, yeah, okay, And that guy we
were with was like, oh, that's cool, and he asked me.
I was like, no, I've had sex, and he's like, oh.
But I feel like if I'd said I was celibate,
he would have also. But with the guy, he just
was like, oh cool. But for me, as a woman,
he felt like, oh oh no. He felt very ready
(20:43):
to weigh in on that situation because he had had
sex for sure, but not me. Not cool.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
Oh, I think you're cool. Thanks.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
It's just weird that we put that on women. It's
like it comes the have you had sex in you're slut,
But if you haven't had sex, well you're.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
None, right and you must be miserable.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
All right, and you're unhappy quote unquote, which is again
such an odd statement, Like there's so many we've gotten
so far, like you have said, from women be liberated
to if you're not liberated, then you are stunted and
oppressed and unhappy.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Right, And it's really unfortunate because I think that if
you want to have consensual sex, totally support you shouldn't
be judged for it. Should be should be able to
use an app and feel safe. That would be great.
If you don't want to that should also be okay.
(21:49):
But I feel like we've really reduced it into an
either or that is not healthy.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Right.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
You could be a liberated woman who's like I actually
not into sex.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
That's fine, that's good, that's your choice. That's the conversation.
And it's kind of to this level of it's such
a weird level of like feminists and anti feminists, like
it's being used as both.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Yeah, yes, I've had a lot of I've had a
lot of thoughts about this lately. I want to come
back and do this even though it's going to make
me really mad. But I've seen that happen a lot
recently in politics, where usually white women, conservative white women
(22:38):
are using feminist terminology now that they once never would
have but now they're using it and be like, oh,
you won't let me speak because I'm a woman, and
I'm like, no, the rules are it's not.
Speaker 3 (22:49):
Your term to speak, that's the rule.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
So I do think there's something that's happening that's a
flattening of what femine and intersexual feminism is right, and
it's concerning me, and honestly it is.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
I think there's the bigger conversation is that we we
need to remember. I think we're so caught up in
fighting about feminism. M that's the best perspective is like
intersectionality is different. Like I wish we could we came
in the episode talking about how feminism was a bad
word and it's just now being misconstrued, not feminism in
(23:29):
its theory and what it is, but like.
Speaker 3 (23:31):
Of who is using it and why? Yes, and I did.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
I wanted to look it up because again that conversation
is like why are you telling women that they need
to have sex, that you're not going to be able
to do this type of thing. Interestingly, in twenty twenty three,
the gender ratio goes male to female three to one.
There's only thirty four point seven users that are female
or that are women for Bumble as of twenty twenty three.
(23:57):
So this is not the way. Why would you You've
lost so many of your main people, why would.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
You do this, right, especially because they've gone away from
this now. But it was, Yes, women had to reach
out first.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I think they they still do technically, unless maybe they
have like the premium.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
I think pretty recently. Oh really, they've gone away from it,
and it could be because of those numbers.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
That might be why. Yeah, because I don't know what
the like.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Maybe it is a different tier. I'm not sure, but
I'm I'm pretty sure they've gone away from women have
to make the first move, which was their whole thing.
And it would make sense if me like a third
of their users are women.
Speaker 2 (24:44):
Right, right, So looks like they have different Bumble boosts
versus premium, and that's significant if you want to get
the premium for your for life, which is really sad.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Hey maybe you just want to date maybe, Okay, that's right.
So I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (25:00):
I'm sorry, but if you're trying to get in here
for relationship relationships and that's that, I'm sorry. But it's
two hundred and twenty nine to ninety nine for lifetime
subscription for Mumble Premium, which apparently allows you see who's
already liked you, advanced filters for your feed, It gives
you incognito mode, and travel mode lets you change locations. Wait,
(25:24):
they don't let you do that now.
Speaker 3 (25:26):
I used to be able to.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Oh man, I used to be able to ten years ago.
It's been a minute.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
I have ever dated anyone off that one though. I
never could make the move.
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Honestly, I would have a tough time making the move.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Which is a lot of people have talked about that too,
that are like, you know, it's a great idea, but
sometimes it's just doesn't work that way, Like if people
are too shy, girls don't know how to start, like
all of those things.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Well again, also, if the dating online dating community is
so toxic, then yeah, I'm nervous it's going to be
somebody who's going to send me a ticic. I mean,
right immediately, I think I never had that. I can't
I think I just have that face. Don't pull me.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
It's a face a lot in this episode. But yeah,
like it's it's I'm actually surprised. I thought it would
be the other way around, or at least even but man,
three to.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
One, that's significant.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
Yeah, and then you run these ads like you need to.
I don't think you understand. Why are you doing the
push and pull thing? Who do you have on your
advertising team?
Speaker 3 (26:32):
Is it the dudes at the hookup dudes? Because this
is bad? Like? What really? What were you thinking?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean, knowing this now, I think they're thinking, as
some of the other users pointed out, they're losing a
lot of money, They're losing a lot of users. Maybe
we'll go back to things that's tried and true, patriarchal
methods that people have used before. But try to dress
it up as some weird, weird empowerment message that it's
(27:02):
definitely not.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
There's so many things, there's so many things that I
have questions about. But yes, I think.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
At least they are giving that space to other I
don't know, I don't know what space they have used
it for. I haven't looked that far into it. Outside
the controversy and their apology which was given two days ago,
or today's May sixteenth, twenty twenty four. So I guess
like May fourteenth is when they decided, oh yeah, we
(27:30):
sicked up.
Speaker 3 (27:31):
Here we go.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
As I'm looking at their social media posts in general,
like nothing, nothing is a standout outside of yeah, the
fact that they had no they have several influencers having
that exhausted T shirt on.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Maybe I don't know, because like this one influencer, she
wrote in her caption Exhausted Girl Summer at Bumble wake
Up Call. Maybe it's telling them to wake up and
stop being exhausted. It doesn't play doesn't sound good, It
doesn't play into what I think.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
No, that does not sound good.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
Single, fabulous and exhausted from the dating scene wake up call.
If you're single and fabulous and exhausted, then.
Speaker 3 (28:17):
Why do you want to put yourself from the dating scene.
Sounds like you're good. It sounds like you're great. You
look good.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
And the shirt this influencer looks great. I think her
name is Tessa. She looks amazing. But yeah, like it,
I'm baffled in the slip that they have. I'm not
really sure Again, they did not think this through again,
I have not seen maybe these posts were up up
on social media. I think they were only billboards from
what I gathered, they just ended up spreading wide and
(28:48):
far did not go well. They forgot that social media
was a thing and going viral is not necessarily great.
Speaker 3 (28:56):
But yeah, I think it.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
Makes me sad to see something that was women empowering
at the beginning owned by a woman who went through
her own stuff at Tinder, did her own thing, was
making money doing her little thing, and then it comes
to this and being like, yeah, you're just like every
corporation that we've seen. You want our money, you want
women to build you up and hold you up, but
(29:21):
when it comes to caring for the women, you do
minimally and then just crash and burn.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
So it seems, yeah, it's a very status quo type
of add because I've been thinking about this too, about
gender dads, and like we've moved on from these, haven't.
We can't, we we don't need to do this anymore,
but people are still doing it because it worked once
(29:49):
upon a time, but now we're yeah, things are going
viral and we're having opinions about it and it's not
working like it used to uh and still companies. If
I feel like they rely on it, they rely on
that structure, that kind of patriarchy.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
You've got to.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Pay for it women or else right, you'll never get
a man. Oh dear, oh no threatened me with a
good time.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
J I would be interested to know if the usage
has actually gone down, because the numbers that I'm seeing
are not showing that necessarily, but it's consistently showing that.
Speaker 3 (30:51):
It's mainly more men than women, and.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
As in fact, a Pew research article talking about it
said women who have used online dating platforms in the
past year twenty twenty four are more likely to feel
overwhelmed by the number of messages they get, while men
are more likely to feel insecure about a lack of message.
So I feel like, I feel like for anybody who
(31:17):
is trying to think of what to do, like if
they're trying to make money and looking like at apps
and sites, they need to put these in consideration, Like
they need to think about how this is vetted. And
I think there are some that we have seen that
have done better with that, but then they've changed because
they weren't getting enough influx. And again, none of these
(31:38):
are sponsors obviously.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
Not speaking very highly of.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Them, so but none of them are really sponsors. But
I know that coffee meets bagel. Their intention was only
giving you a FeMn at a time. Maybe that has changed,
and then I feel like hinged with something similar where
you're supposed to know at least someone that they know,
and that has changed too. I think cans become a
little more popular since they first started, but I know,
(32:08):
like the original intents were different, so I feel like
I don't know if they just weren't making enough, or
they're trying to catch up to Tender, which was always
been a part of the hookup culture, so they have
their own thing again, but it's mainly men.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Yeah, And I feel like so many companies. It makes
me sad because I'm like, what you started out as
I liked, and then capitalism really got the clause in
and you became moved away from that. But it is
ultimately an issue of rape culture and dating culture, and
(32:46):
it's isolating and sad because I feel like people do
want to get together, but reasonably women don't feel safe
and men then feel and secure hurt. They're not getting
any right messages or nothing compared to what women are getting.
(33:06):
But that's that's how it is. So your billboard is
not gonna help, all right, we don't try to change
right situation.
Speaker 2 (33:17):
And yeah, coming back to the Pew research, it says
younger women who have used dating sites or apps stand
out for experiencing unwanted behaviors on these platforms. It goes
on to say a majority of women under fifty who
have used dating sites or apps, fifty six percent say
they have been sent explicit sexually explicit messages or images
they didn't ask for, and about four in ten have
(33:38):
had someone continue to contact them after they said they
were not interested. That was about forty three percent of them,
or have been called an offensive name that's thirty seven
percent of them, and roughly one intent of this group,
eleven percent have received threats of physical harm. But yeah,
so you see, like one in ten have received threats
of physical harm. Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Yeah? I think it's unreasonable to expect anything from an
online dating encounter in the beginning stages other than let's see,
if maybe I'm interested, right, I don't think that should
like any rejection from that if it's politely like, hey,
I'm not interested, that should not be a threat of violence.
(34:21):
It should not be like I'm going to send you
a dick pic anyway. It should not be like that's
how relationships work. You don't just like.
Speaker 2 (34:29):
You do.
Speaker 3 (34:30):
You have a little bit of a back and forth.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
First, right, right, I mean if she asks you, if
they ask you for it, sure go for it. Is
cold consent, right, you do you? But outside of that,
what And that Pew research paper was actually twenty twenty three,
so it's a year old, so who knows, because like again,
I haven't seen much since then. I don't see much
since then. I'm sure our new one will come out
(34:54):
if it hasn't already, and I.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Just had seen it.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
But the fact that that at least half the women
like half like under fifty, which is the majority of
people like. It's gotten more popular for fifty and over,
but for a chunk of the people and users, they're
under fifty typically, And to have to deal with that
constantly and then have this kind of ad that really
shames women for say they don't want to have sex.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
Excuse me, yeah, absolutely, especially when the exhausted part is
part of their campaign.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Seemingly no women are saying they're exhausted. But you want
to add this to their you want to lame and guilt? Okay, cool, cool, cool.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Turn it on them like they're not trying hard enough
or something. It is on you that you're exhausted, actually, and.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
You should do this more right, whether you want to
what's cowarts? What?
Speaker 1 (35:49):
Yeah? Yeah, I had not heard about this until you
brought it to my attention, but it is quite a.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
It's a buzz around my my FYP and I was like,
this is this is not real? I really thought it
was a joke at first. It's like, that's not true.
Speaker 3 (36:08):
That's nice.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
I had to make sure because it was around April.
I was, I guess this this is still like an
older April fool one.
Speaker 3 (36:15):
What's happening? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (36:16):
And then just the last bit, I did see a
see in an article where it says Tender downloads are falling,
but the dating app era isn't over yet, so they
are falling. They apparently fell by at least eight percent
from last year to just below ten million users, so
they're declining. Like we kind of knew that was going
to happen. We kind of knew it was happening. The
(36:38):
peak times were twenty sixteen and twenty eighteen, it looks like,
which is an interesting time so on I guess I
was on it then I was one of those. Twenty
twenty had that increase as well. Not surprising, but yeah,
it is pretty significantly lower, definitely the lowest it's been
since twenty fourteen.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Yeah, and we talked about that a little bit in
the recent ISH episode we did about what's going on
with online dating, and in that episode we a lot
of people, especially younger people, cited exhaustion, like just being
tired with it. But you mentioned that there's been a
(37:21):
growth in matchmaking, and after you said that, I started
to see that in a long places. So I do
want to come back and look at that.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yes, I think it's fascinating. Like again, I've realized different
cultures still use matchmaking and have used it for a
long time. I know South Korea actually does. It is
a big industry and I didn't know this un till later.
I thought that was a K drama thing. But I
mean again, I think that there's this conversation of like
(37:51):
matching in the socioeconomic status wise, so they have this
level of matching. Again, I feel like that's so outdated
but I'm not rich, and no one tried to set
me up with a rich person, So maybe that's why
I didn't know about it. Personal experience does not apply here.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
Right, Right, That's why I'm interested in it because I've
only heard about it in usually rich circles, right, But
I did see it come up in a lot of
articles that we're talking about. People are tired of online dating.
They're turning to matchmakers. So I would love if any
(38:31):
listeners is willing to share stories. Yeah, I would love
to know more about it, because I mean, that's truly.
The sad thing about a lot of this is I
have so many friends who want to find that person, right,
and they're doing they're doing the thing. And for a
lot of people, online dating is very convenient, but it
(38:52):
comes with this risk. It comes like all dating does.
But it to me, like hearing those numbers and hearing
some of the stories my friends have told me, I
just hate that it comes with this risk.
Speaker 3 (39:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (39:04):
But you're just trying to find like happiness and someone
to have companionship with in one and ten you might
get threatened with violence, that's right.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
That's that's a fifty to fifty chance that you're going
to get dick pic. Yeah, that's actually harassed and that
you're going to be stopped like this. These are not
good numbers.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
No, And it makes me so mad when like usually
men get mad and they're like women won't they never
come out and day it won't do this? Why here
you go?
Speaker 3 (39:38):
You're the prime example. Again. I still go back to
that one.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
Dude.
Speaker 2 (39:41):
It was like, I know, girl, like you don't date
me as is like opener and I was like what correct, well,
all right, definitely not kind of define, not kind of
respond black black block, right, I don't know why you're threatening.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
Me, like it's gonna be like, oh, he's so attractive.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
I love when they're automatically mad at me for existing.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Right. I didn't solicit solicit this, none of this. I
didn't say hey to you, I cruise by. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (40:07):
I mean once again, like with said normal interaction, you
would at least like hey, right, it's it's upsetting and baffling.
Speaker 2 (40:22):
That's upsetting, yes, and it's worse when companies don't recognize
that this can be upsetting.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (40:29):
It's very limited, a very limited view that was on
display with this advertising campaign, and it was not a
good one.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Nope, this was not this was not this was nice?
Was hard? Not it? Well?
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Listeners, If you have any thoughts about this, we're always
interested what's going on in the dating world online or not.
Any thoughts about this advertisement or ratch making, please us know.
You can email ust Stuff idio mom Stuff at iHeartMedia
dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom
Stuff podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff I
Never Told You. We're also on YouTube. We have a
t boil at store, and we have a book you
(41:10):
can get wherever you get your books. Thanks as always
too our super producer Christine or executive producer Maya, and
our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for
listening Stuff I Never Told You direction of iHeart Radio.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check
out the iHeart Radio ap Apple Podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
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