August 30, 2019 • 42 mins
Is the mythical fake geek girl a phantom menace? Anney and Samantha investigate, and wonder if there is a new hope for detoxifying toxic fandoms.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this Sanny in Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've
never told your protection of I heart Adios how stuff First,
as we record this, listeners, Dragon Con, which is a
convention of all things nerdum that drew over eighty thousand
(00:26):
people last year is coming to Atlanta. It takes place
every Labor Day weekend in the city, taking over five
hotels in Midtown and pretty much everything in that vicinity,
especially Peach Tree Mallum. I've been going for like eight
years now. I've been going for a while, but hilariously
not while I was a student at Georgia Tech, which
is both close and is known as a geek college.
(00:49):
I didn't even know about it. Um. But Samantha and
I will be there um or we were there depending
on when you listen to this, and I will be
in costume either as the Winter Soldier of course. Pick
up from How to Train Your Dragon with a Flaming Sword.
It's gonna be cool Spider Woman with perhaps a joke
about like Disney and Sony and being or something. I
(01:11):
don't know, snap judgment with my favorite drunk purchase I've
ever made the fans car right. You figured out that
that one didn't you. Oh yeah, I went it showed up.
I was like, what is this huge box? Oh, it's
an infinite and it's a giant. Of course it is,
of course it is. UM and UM. I have possible
side costumes like Ellie from the Last of Us, UM,
(01:31):
Catwoman from The Dark Night and that series. She's not
in that movie, don't don't write in about it. UM,
and Hella from thor Ragnarok. I just loved like black Messy,
I make up. I'm in UM, but come find us.
We might be recording right UM, and I'm gonna be there.
I will not be dressing up. I'm going to be
(01:52):
the person in the corner staring around in awe and
probably disbelief. Yes, I'm gonna assume that's going to be
my reaction because this will be the first one that
I will ever have attended. And the only reason I'm
going is as support an audience for you, essentially and
apparently maybe a backpack carrier. Yeah, because I don't want
to ruin my costume, but that that's fair and that's fair.
And I'm going to be in the corner with the
(02:13):
recording equipment, hopefully if we can get that in UM
talking to different women and those who have are dressing
as females, I guess essentially um and see what's going
on in their heads and how they came up with
their costumes. Because I will say the one thing about
dragon Con just going through the parade or even driving
through Atlanta during this time, there's some elaborate costumes and
(02:34):
people put a lot of hard work and a lot
of money in these things. Oh yeah, and that's my
favorite part of of dragon Con is just seeing the
creativity of the costumes. A lot of puns, and you
know I love pun. There's so many puns. Oh yeah,
I've got I got some good pun costs you, I mean,
snap judgment obviously. But we're not only talking about dragon
(02:58):
Con today, although it might come up some We're talking
about the fake geek girl and toxic fandom at large.
And this is something that I do know a lot about,
and we've touched on these topics and a handful of episodes,
but I'm pretty sure, unless my memory and Google is
failing me, we've never done an entire episode on it.
(03:19):
And there is a Fake Geek Girls podcast out there. Yeah, okay, So,
definition time geek a person who has excessive enthusiasm for
and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity. Yeah.
I used to have like a debate about like nerd
versus the work hierarchy when it came to those types
(03:43):
of Oh, I've been in many arguments about it. People
have their opinions and they're almost always different. And it's
the one that they claim to be is the best one.
I aloys. See, I always a claimed to be the
nerd I'll always call it. Was called a nerd growing
up because of my love for books and writing. And
you know, see I was always called a dork because
I feel like a dork is a softer. I don't
(04:04):
know a goof ear. This is all just looked it up. Um,
So we look at fake geek girl. This is a
woman pretending to be nerdy to attract male attention. Uh,
there is no other reason for a woman to like something, right,
I have a specialized Yeah, no, just to attracting. That's
(04:26):
why I do things. Oh yeah, that's my whole goal
in life. Right. Um. Usually they are convenually attractive, these
fake geek girls, because it is a real geek dudes fantasy.
It's a woman entering their boys only clubhouse. So the
only way that these women can exist in there is
by being a sexual object to be enjoyed by them.
(04:48):
And geeks are generally assumed to be men unless the
girl not woman, by the way, is added, that already
makes them an outsider. So like just the fact we
have to specify peak is assumed to be male. Get girl,
you have to like have that label. That means the
masculinity of geek culture is just as policed as jocks
(05:10):
are inside locker rooms, and it is a way for
dudes to blame women for rejection. She's just a fake girl.
And so this fake geek girl is a meme. You've
probably seen it. It's um a white woman, a white
young woman with kind of brown hair, bangs, glasses, and
on her hand she has a nerd written on it.
(05:32):
And that's kind of the meme. You'll see, the fake
eat girl. And it's everywhere. It is everywhere. Scott Snyder's
Batman number thirteen had an ad with a woman wearing
a shirt that said impostor on the front, and the
speech bubble said, I basically spend like all day looking
at low cats on Facebook. I'm such a huge nerd.
(05:53):
Then There's Dirk Mannings, who is a comic writer. He
has this Facebook post that said, dear girls who take
pictures in slutty cooling and glass is in labeled the
caption nerd l O L. You're not a nerd, You're
a whore who found classes. An angry man he does.
There's no need for that. Unnecessary. We've got another angry man,
another angry man. There are favorites. Okay, this is from
(06:16):
Tony Harris and it's long, so I'm gonna read it.
I can't remember if I said this before, but I'm
gonna say it anyway. I don't give a crap. I
appreciate a pretty gal as much as the next hetero male.
Sometimes I even go in for some racy type stuff,
keeping the comments PG for my lady's sake. But damn it,
damn it, damn it. I am so sick and tired
(06:37):
of the whole cosplay chicks. I know a few who
are actually pretty cool and big shocker, love and read comics,
so as in all things, they are the exception to
the rule. Here's the statement I want to make based
on the rule. Hey, quasi pretty not hot girl, you
are more pathetic than the real nerds who you secretly
think are really pathetic, but we are onto you. Some
(07:00):
of us are aware that you are ever so average
on an everyday basis, but you have a couple of
things going your way. You're willing to become almost completely
naked in public, and you're either skinny, will some or
most of you think that you are, Or you have
big boobies. Notice I didn't say great boobies. You are
(07:22):
what I refer to as con hot. Well, not by
my estimation, but according to a lot of average comic
book fans who either rarely speak to or never speak
to girls, some virgins, all un confident when it comes
to girls, and the one thing they all have in common,
they are being preyed on by you. You have this
(07:42):
really awful need for attention, for people to tell you
you are pretty or hot, and the thought of guys
pleasuring themselves to the memory of you hagging on them
with your glossy open lips, promising them the moon and
the stars of pleasure just makes your head vibrate. After
many years of watching this go down, every three second,
it's around in front of my booth or table at
any given con in this country, I put this together. Well,
(08:05):
not just me, we are legion and here it is
the reason why all that sickens as because you don't
know about comics beyond whatever Google image search you did
to get reference on the most mainstream character with the
most revealing costume ever. And also, if any of these
guys that you hang on tried to talk to you
out of the con, you wouldn't give them the same
(08:26):
time of day. Shut up, you damned lyar No, you
would not, lying, liar face, You're not comics. You're just
the thing that all the comic book and mainstream press
flocked two at cons. And the real reason for the
con and the damned costumes you're preading around in that
would be comic book artists and comic book writers who
make all that up. Okay, why is he so angry?
(08:48):
Why isn't he just letting it go? And hey, even
if that is the case, you're getting publicity. Move on, man,
you should just send him a note. Man, you sound
sad and you sell You've been rejected a lot. But
I'm probably gonna get docs just for saying this, because
I'm sure he's somebody's hero who is really sad and lonely,
as he said, and it's like, oh, you're staying up
(09:08):
for all men. Good job. I don't know how to
stay that would. Sit down, Calm down, You're insignificant. If
this is what you have to rant about, this is
your issue in life, just sit down. Yeah, it'll be okay, dude.
Just they're pretty, move all. You know. You don't have
to compliment them. You don't even have to look at
that costume. You don't have any of those things. They
(09:28):
don't have to exist for you. It's fine. Just let
them be. Are you so sad and lonely? Samantha's turned
this around on you, sir. I'm just saying it's gonna
be okay. Boo, book will be okay. And then there's
Joe Peacock, who wrote there's a growing chorus of frustration
in the geek community with and there's no other way
(09:49):
to put this. Pretty girls pretending to be geeks for attention.
San Diego Comic Con is the largest vehicle, but it's
hardly the only convention populated with quote, hot chicks wearing
skimpy outfits simply to get a bunch of golf and
geeks heads to turn just to satisfy their hollow egos. Okay,
I'm so seriously confused about why they are so upset
(10:09):
about pretty girls. Oh well, they're upset about pretty girls
existing in their space and not being sexual objects just
for them to consume. Well, it's that in part too.
There's this sense of if you were a child and
being a nerd was not cool and you got beat
up for it, perhaps that you had to go through
(10:31):
this stuff and it's like an exclusive club. And now
people are just in their minds they just look good.
Don't understand it coming into our world. So it's the
whole world of I'll listen to them before they're popular.
I like this before they were cool mentality. Yeah, and
there's definite gate keeping and entitlement and we're going to
talk about some of this more later. And also just
(10:53):
um a geek anything that depends on expertise, to like
your credentials of how much of a gee q r
depends on how much you know about a certain thing,
then they're automatically with that is a level of judgment
of thinking. I can understand it. They're upset because someone
else is making money on something they didn't dedicate themselves too.
But just enjoying it. Yeah, it seems kind of harsh. Well,
(11:17):
and also, and we mentioned this a little bit, in
fan fiction, there is a people look down on how
women more traditionally celebrate fandom, like writing fan fiction or
making costumes, because if you look at arts and crafts,
who are more likely to engage in that it is women.
(11:39):
So women are making these costumes, and some of these
men are looking down on that as that it's not
true fandom, that is not true nerdom? How dare they?
How dare they? And who agrees is Dr nerd Love
who responded being sexy as great, as long as you've
(11:59):
passed this ideological test that shows that you are in
ded a true geek and not one of those hideous posers.
I'm sure Peacock, who is the person whose comments we've
just read, I'm sure Peacock means well, But what he
is saying is, ladies, you're only allowed to express yourself
sexually if you follow my rules. This is continuing the
long running attitudes still prevalent in geek culture that women
(12:19):
are allowed to partake in fandom and geek culture if
and only if they fulfill specific criteria, and even then
only if they participate in preapproved manners. The fake geek
girl is the nerd equivalent of the welfare queen, a
semi mythical beast who somehow ruins things for everybody by well,
nobody's entirely sure, confusing their poor sad boners. Evidently nobody
(12:43):
has ever been able to explain, to my satisfaction just
how this hurts geek culture. Somebody dressing up in a
sexy costume because being ogle makes them feel good doesn't
affect me or my friends participation in geek culture in
any meaningful way. Putting the blame on these fake geek
attention grabbers for narrowly to finding the role of women
and keepdom only serves to resolve the men who act
(13:03):
as gatekeepers, insisting that the only role open to women
is to be a sexual object rather than a full partner,
while denigrating them for doing so. At the exact same time,
the idea of the fake geek girl only serves as
a way of dismissing or diminishing the presence of women
and keepdom. If she doesn't conform to some arbitrary standard,
she's clearly a fake, only in it for the attention,
(13:25):
Because if there's anything women do. It's been hours upon
hours of time and effort just a ryle dudes up
with absolutely no payoff. That's what I'm doing here, isn't
that what you're doing here? Yeah? I love rolling dudes up? Yeah,
never mind, never mind, never mind about um. And so
from my personal experience being in costumes at conventions, I've
(13:50):
had men come up to me and quiz me, for sure,
how much do you know about this character? Do you
know every Russian word that sets off the winners soldier?
Can you do them for me? Um? I can do.
I can do what I would assume is not very
great Russian pronunciation, but I know the general sounds have more.
I'm like, I'm more, not more impressed, but I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(14:12):
of course you wouldn't know. Of course you're Annie, of
course you wouldn't know. I have watched Winter Soldiers several
several times. I almost watched it last night. I couldn't
because you weren't there. We gotta wait, we gotta do
it together. Men ask if they can pose with me
in sexy ways, take pictures where I'm in like some
kind of sexy pose, like holding my breasts are making
out or carrying me on their shoulder. Um. I've had
(14:34):
men accused me of knowing nothing about the character I
was dressed as. Men say, um that they see me
every year and they know quote exactly what I'm doing.
What I don't know, they know I don't know. I'm
just trying to have fun here. On the other side
of the spectrum, I've had men act offensively impressed that
(14:56):
I know literally anything about nerd him and immediately act
as though we must have sex immediately. We've we've got
a date. We were soulmates, obviously. Um. The first year
I went there, an old man bought me a bud light.
The first year I went to drink on and then
asked me up to his hotel room a bud light.
A bud light. That's not that's not the drink to
go to to be like, Hey, come hang with me
(15:17):
in my hotel room. And I'm so oblivious. I was
just thrilled at a free beer that I saw someone
else before. Look, if you're gonna buy me a beer,
I'm gonna move on. Like that's not a promise, that's
as you being dumb. Future episode. I actually want to
re examine that because I've always kind of been torn
on what to do anyway. Okay, UM, all kinds of
(15:39):
one want to touching. We've done episodes about that, and
you've probably heard it in the news. UM and the
attitude that since you're dressed up as a certain character
is totally cool, like you're no longer human anymore. They're
this rendering of a character that they have an idea about. UM.
Or sometimes they think it's just funny, especially because I
gender been so I'm usually dressed as like a female
(16:00):
version of a male character, so a lot of dudes
think that's hilarious. Um. I've had cops make inappropriate comments
and asked me out when I'm dressed in costume, and
we have literally not said anything to each other. It
just comes up. You know what, I'd like tack you
out of date, No sir, No sir. UM and Samith
(16:21):
and I at our upcoming convention, we're gonna take it
tally of how many sexist comments we receiver over here.
We're gonna do a little survey find out how prevalent
that is. Because last year they did have an incident UM,
and they actually had a video I think of a
woman being accosted and they were trying to find this
man at Dragon Con. So I know that people have
become a little more aware of what's happening and how
(16:43):
inappropriate this is. I have certainly observed so much sexism
at cons and it is certainly deterred some of my
friends from going. And I have seen women judge women
dressed for too sexy, for essentially being fakey girls. I
have friends of mine that used to do that before
they grew up and realized the error of their ways, right,
(17:03):
But I've seen women do it. That's the things like
I Again, I know I've said repeatedly one of the
reasons I don't go to convention like this as an
Asian woman, there's a whole level of fetishism that happens already.
So when you go into and for me, even though
there's so many other things that Dragon con, animal is
one of the first things I think of, and that's
typically one of the right you know, I was like,
(17:25):
oh no, oh no, no, we can't hang out if
you're obsessed. It's one thing to have an interest, and
it's the one thing to like it. But to me,
there's a whole level of why you want to talk
to me right, So that to me, like, even though
I think it's getting less and less, but that if
that is just still very very very existent. I definitely
get asked out based on me being Asian and now
my sexy voice just getting at um. But I'm just like,
(17:48):
that's one of the reasons I stay away, far far away,
and I typically don't dress up. If I dressed up,
it's going to be a funny character then a sexy
character typically for me. Yeah, and caveat here. I do
normally have a pretty good experience. This is making it
sound horrible, but I want to say this. All of
this stuff happens to me when I'm alone. Um, I
(18:11):
think when we're together, I'm not sure that this is
going to happen. Well, it's kind of like that pack mentality,
and I'm sure, well we could go into that later on.
But men have this thing about women being alone versus
being in a pack. But sometimes it doesn't even determine
in general, especially if there's a male in the group,
then that kind of like or someone of the opposite
sex or someone of different sex that that just kind
(18:31):
of pulled everything apart for the right pray versus predator mentality,
but it kind of is. So. Yeah, I could definitely say,
especially at these types of conferences, if you're not with
a group, that obviously means you need friends quote unquote yeah,
m hmm. Look at that lonely winter soldier. I think
I'll go up and harass her. That's what I think
(18:53):
every time. Yeah. Sure. And another thing I want to
add in here is something that I've only started to
think about after being on this show is being feminist
and wearing costumes that were designed with the male gaze
of minds, so sexy costumes and feeling conflict about it,
especially when there are young children around. Because it's one
(19:16):
thing I've said it before. I love dressing up in
sexy costumes every now that not all the times, sometimes
I'm not in the place, but sometimes feeling it. I
do it for myself, but I don't think it's perceived
that way because our society has not set it up
to be perceived that way for so long. So I
worry that kids see that perception as opposed to just
the strong woman who wants to dress sexy. Um. So
(19:39):
that's in the back of my head now too. That's
something I think about, well, if you think about old
comics and the characters and the way women were drawn
in general, they're like what the hell they're wearing? And
now today's translations into our movie in you know, Wonder Woman,
it's kind of like that fine balance. And that's another
(19:59):
thing that I hope we'll get to come back to,
because a lot of people have written about it, is
why is it that women when during Halloween say they
it's become like sexy costumes? And I think I subscribe
to the mean girls theory. That is because we're judged
so harshly any other time for dressing sexy, So it's
like the one time we feel like we can. But
(20:21):
there's a lot of other stuff at play. I haven't
done the research yet, so if you disagree, please don't
yell at me quite yet. But that's something that we'll
return to. Me is just wearing all black with some
kind of animal ears. That's the best way to go
that you're wearing all black and then cattiers. Well I
did rabbit ears one year. Comfort is key. Yes, comfort
(20:43):
is key. So why does this whole fake girl thing exist? Well?
Has always for a couple of reasons. One nerd Um
has long been seen as a male alternative for being
traditionally a male. So it's the alternative if you're not
that buff, strong due that is. You know, when we
think of the most masculine, manly man, that's the image,
(21:06):
the sports jock type thing. So nerd m has been
the alternative to that. And in our movies we see
it all the time. You got the jocks and the nerds,
and the nerds always get the girl. They're entitled to
the girl because the male dude wrote it and that's
what they think. Um. Having knowledge, being a nerd was
(21:26):
another way to be competent. So if a woman started
doing this, then does that mean nerd them is less
manly or nerds are only passing as men? And or
if it is defined on how much you know, then
it fosters gatekeeping, like we said, and men have traditionally
done this gatekeeping, and women who got past that frequently
(21:48):
had to give up a part of their identity to
do so, so be a less feminine, not this pretty
fake geek girl. Um, So it can be easy to
lash out against people women in in this scenario that
didn't give up a part of their identity in our eyes. Um,
like you have to do that. Fans of something see
(22:10):
it as part of their identity. Hardcore. It is hardcore,
but it doesn't have to be there different. There are
different levels of fandom. And like I said earlier, I
think a part of it too is that nerdom used
to come with this rite of passage of getting beat
up or being isolated. So when you see someone who
you think didn't have to go through that using the
(22:31):
label you used to find solace or to find people
like you to feel us alone, then you might want
to lash out. And I know we read something about
that in our I think our Star Wars episode about
toxic fandom. Um, but I can't I can never find it.
But I know John evers a bit where he says, nerds,
you've inherited the earth. It's over. Well that's kind of
(22:54):
a new joke as how, that's kind of Um. I
think it was the silly movie with Jonah Hill and
Channing Tatum, the Little Cut movie, Yeah one, and then
they go they go back to school, but the roles
of a reverse and now Joan is the cool kid
who was the nerd in high school and got beat
up and the jock was always Now is being made
fun of which is Chane Tatum yafter like it does
(23:16):
the flip and then like although in the early nineties
late eighties, the Nerds had their own franchise, The Revenge
of the Nerds. I know, it was a whole it
was really creepy movie too. It was terrible. It was
really awful, But they had a whole franchise based on
we will of course he's nerds, really buff Nerds. It
was really weird to me. But yeah, stuff like that
has become a part of like the flip of the
(23:37):
script of mentality. And as I said, there are different
levels of fandom, so that's a totally okay thing. Some
of us are we're all in. Some of us are casual,
and it differs from fandom to fandom. And I personally
don't understand gate keeping and shutting people out from fandoms
that we love. I feel like I want to share
it with everybody. I think you do that really well,
(23:59):
which is also why I've been watching Supernatural. It was
because of you. Essentially, you talked about it enough element cool.
I'll get it because I am a maybe they would
call me a poser because I enjoy it. I know
about it, but I'm not gonna go all the way
into that. That's your level, that's my levels. Like I
will I like all the Captain Marvel movies. I will
(24:20):
watch them, and I will not watch them ten times
in a week. Annie, I don't know, Samantha. Just let
me be a little bit more persuasive. I gets here
and there, but like things like that, I won't be
standing in line for four hours to go ride a
Hagrid ride. Well occasion to do it, you would have
been able to walk right on. So think about that.
(24:42):
I was there, and I love the new text that
I get from you to show me the way times
of the Haggard ride, even though we're nowhere near Every
morning I checked got down to two hours that one fifty,
I was like, oh god, she's gonna get on a plane,
like she's gonna try to get there now. Um, But yeah,
(25:04):
I definitely am one of those. But yeah, I could definitely.
I definitely see the dedication and people when you start
seeing message boards and actually seeing like icons people use
that what there are pictures profile pictures of whatever character
they're in love with. It's pretty fascinating. Oh absolutely, I
totally agree, and it's I love the creativity of the costumes,
(25:26):
and part of that like the crafting, as we said
that that's predominantly female. Um, but the creativity of it
and just seeing the puns people come up with, just
how impressive something is and it takes time and it
takes money. You can do it cheaply, but it can
be very expensive. And to just dismiss that as this
(25:50):
isn't real fandom, right, that doesn't make any sense. A
little research alone to get the precision people's the details
on these people's costumes are amazing. Oh yeah, and they
might even be sexy. How dare you I guess someone
going to a sexy Panos I guarante. Last year, one
(26:11):
of the costumes I remember the most, and I apologize
in advance, was the sexy Penny Wise h which I
just saw that movie. It was a really good which,
by the way, I know this has nothing to do
with this, but that whole scene with him being in
the room full of the figurines and of clowns, That's
what I'm talking about. That's what I'm scared of. That
(26:31):
Savantha's very specific fear they came to life. Well, okay,
I'll keep that in mind. I'll try to get better
about warning you about statues that's bad, whatever they are. Um, yeah,
I just I'm not down with this looking I'm not
down with looking down on how other people express their
(26:54):
fandom as long as it's not hurting anybody else. I
don't get it. I think that's the mantra, doesn't bother you.
If it's not actually physically taking away a right or
happiness or something that's actually then why then why why?
And also women have always been geeks. Just want to
put that out there throughout history. I know Mary Shelley
(27:14):
isn't an example of one of the first geeks. Um,
we're just more visible now and we're taking up space
and people don't like And also people are actually acknowledging
that yes as a thing. We have some more for
you on toxic fandom, but first we have a quick
break for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(27:48):
you sponsored. So, toxic fandom. This has been thrown about
our vernacular a lot lately, and it's made up of
three things. Essentially, entitlement, a feeling of superior priority, and possessiveness.
If that fandom has been traditionally white and male, then
anything outside of that that that messes with this sense
(28:08):
of possessiveness, and it's not limited to nerdy things at all.
Music is another another big one, like K pop. I
know that's come out the example of how female singers
can't date because the fans are so possessive. It's like
an old school back throwback when actors we're not allowed
to share anything about the private lab and had to
pretend like they are always open, we're never in a
(28:31):
relationship and single, right. I heard that rumor kind of
around Taylor Swift for a while, like I know, like,
but then they get really possessive in the sense of
Justin Bieber when he and Selena Gomez broke up and
he got married, they started going after his wife like
mean because they just it should have been this other woman.
And you're just gonna like, damn you all let them
(28:52):
live their lives. Why. I get it. If you don't
like his music, sure, if he's a dick, sure, but
because he married someone else that level and then we
know the hive will come after you. Um. They these
people are really scary. They're they're very passionate, and they're
very passionate. Yes, and and some of these uh celebrities
(29:16):
have had to address their fan base and say I
will not tolerate this type of behavior. You're right. Um.
And if we go back to entitlement that comes with
a sense of ownership. Um, this might involve death threats
to the creator if things don't go the way that
the fan thinks that it should. Game of Thrones, Yeah,
(29:38):
the petitions see that fairly often, actually, and I hear
it with any kind of ending. People don't like, oh
my gosh, but they make things happen, like the Veronica
Malar stuff. Well, that's an example of good fandom, although
that does come with the double edged sort of then
you feel like you have to do fan service because
(29:59):
they essentially made it happen, which Christin Bell actually she
talked about it, Yeah, she did. Um. And then if
we look at the superiority, you're better than the so
called enormis or casuals to the terms they use are muggles. Sometimes,
even outside of Harry Potter, toxic fandom is sometimes called
(30:19):
protective fandom. Fans thinking that they are protecting are preserving
the fandom as they believe it should be. Um. And
I've told the story on this very show how I
stopped playing games online because of toxic fandom. Michelle Rodriguez
was booed after saying destructive male culture while on a
panel called Women Who Kick Ass. A man shouted at
(30:40):
her women who talked too much. Then there's Bree Larson
the whole I think she just said we need more
women and everyone was like fire her immediately. Um. And
then the reaction to Marvel Phase four, which is much
more diverse than it has been traditionally, people saying, oh,
(31:00):
this is it's ruined, like three women exactly, how dare you?
And then they're all white red oads. Right. There's even
that cut of the Avengers where they took out all
the women all male Avengers. That thinks like that. And
then if you look at Star Wars, there's Daisy Daisy
Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran being bullied off social media.
(31:23):
They're both in the new Star Wars. And then the
movies like, um, Charlie Staron was on Mad Max. They're
pissed that she was one of the heroes, even though
essentially she still got rescued. Yeah, and I'm just like,
what's happening? And their whole men's men's rights movement about
boycotting that movie and things like that. It's just so affling. Yeah,
(31:45):
another thing that baffles me. Actors on Voltron received death
threats because of their response to questions around shipping. So
I've said it in another episode, but this is when
you are pushing for a certain relationship and they thought that.
I think the actors just said, I like, people should
ship whoever they want and everyone, not everyone, but a
(32:06):
very vocal group of fans said you're wrong, this is
the only ship you monster death threats. Then Dan Harmon
have he had to essentially condemned half the fans of
Rick and Morty. Really, yes, and there it's one of
those things, unfortunate things where it's been taken by men's
(32:31):
rights activists and sort of turned into so like we
talked about in cells, so that like alpha is Rick
and then Beta is Morty, and then whatever the dad's name, Jerry,
he's the other thing. Um. And they attacked to McDonald's
and I think San Francisco some Rick and Morty fans
because they ran out of the sechue sauce. They were
(32:53):
threatening McDonald's employees. This is a cartoon, right, and people
don't get mad at me and I'm like over a
cartoon of a non existent place and characters. Correct, and
I'm sorry, I'm going off track. Keep going. Stephen Universe
artist was forced to quit after she was threatened by
(33:15):
fans for drawing a appairing ship that they didn't like.
Members of a Sherlock panel the BBC Show were harassed
based on their preference of who tops in that universe.
Huh exactly. I think one of them was given a
(33:36):
candy with needles in it. Oh my god. Then there's
the practice of swatting. That's when you call swat teams
on someone during a gaming dispute, and this has resulted
in at least one death. That's a twenty years sentence.
Rotten Tomatoes changed its review policy to prevent mostly male
participants in toxic fandom from bombing movies on their site,
(33:58):
usually before they've been seeing them. Movies with fee out
and or people of color and lead roles Captain Marvel, Black, Panther,
Wonder Woman, they were all targets. The New Ghostbusters, Star Wars,
Last Jedi Tumbler added tag blocking and fandoms have this
power because this is a group that people who make
movies studios feel beholden to because that it's guaranteed money
(34:23):
if he pleased them. And I'm sorry if that fails callous,
but it's true, right um. And that can prevent studios
from making more inclusive choices um or like braver storyline choices.
And this is not to absolve studios at all at all,
but we can't absolve toxic fandom either, especially when studios
do make these decisions and the actors pay the price
(34:45):
via social media. It's like a reverse death of the
author problem when the fans are the problem, not the creator,
and creators can be involved in it too, though, especially
when they say a true fan can only believe in
their interpretation. Yes, I believe Anne Rice is a good example.
(35:06):
And and it's really bad this whole thing in terms
of things like fight Club or The Matrix, where toxic
again largely male fans took the original work and turned
it into something poisonous like representative of red pill blue pill.
And that's not how it was meant. I mean, fight
Club was supposed to be a satire about toxic masculinity, um.
(35:28):
But it has been usurped every every time. That is
why we can't have nice things. Yes, hashtag not all fans.
We're making it sound awful. They are parts of it,
parts of it that are just truly terrible and frightening,
(35:48):
and it scared some people away, and it's that is
really frustrating to me. Um. Some of it, though, is
beautiful and rewarding and sometimes transformative. It can give you hobbies, friends,
maybe even significant others. Um. It can be a place
to find your tribe. I found one of my best friends.
I went up to talk to her because she had
a Harry Potter folder. It's the whole reason why I
talked to her and we're still best friends. To this stay,
(36:10):
she will be a jack Oh is she? And you guys?
Are are you guys the ones going to uh Orlando
November Full Circle? It's it's all coming full together thanks
to fan of It's a place you can hone your creativity.
It can be all these things, but it can be
very very toxic. It can be also a thing that
(36:32):
is a criteria. Um, where like if they don't like
Harry Potter, I'm very suspicious of you. I used to
have that rule and dating kind of like jokingly and
kind of seriously, like you're gonna have to either start
watching it now, yeah, or we're gonna watch them together
or read them. And that's just how it is. But
there are a few things that I'm like, like, if
(36:53):
you don't like this, we're gonna have to have talk.
We're gonna because it's gonna be on just you're just
gonna deal with it. When I'm sitting there watching all
nine eight videos of it of Harry Potter, eight eight
videos back to back to back to back. Yeah, and
I don't want your snipe comments. Don't start with me exactly.
We sound like we're very We've got good criteria for dating,
(37:17):
must like Harry Potter. Check and that's why I'm not married.
I don't want to be. Uh well, we do have
a little bit more for you, but first we have
one more quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.
(37:42):
Thank you sponsor. So toxic fandom is a big topic
right now. I feel like fate geek girl, the tide
is turning where most people are like, that's nonsense, it
doesn't exist. There's definitely still angry men who are pointing
at any sexy lady that walks by. Uh. I feel
like now there's women are pointing at them. I'm like,
(38:03):
m hm, right, So I think I think the tide
is turning there slowly, ever so slowly. Toxic fandom has
been up in the news a lot, and it just
the fact that it's influenced these companies to change their policies,
says a lot. So I wasn't able to find I
we always want to end on a hopeful note. Here's
(38:23):
what you can do. Well, I couldn't find too much,
but I did see a near feed. You can mute,
our block and or report toxic fans and your feeds.
There's a debate around just muting versus actually reporting, because
then it will remove it from all of your followers feeds. So, uh,
(38:43):
perhaps a future episode on that one from YouTuber a
LB in Wonderland. There is no such thing as a
fake eat girl. There are only girls who are different
varying levels of falling in love with something that the
society generically considers to fall under the nerd culture category. Right,
so the fake girl that's a good costume actually being
(39:03):
a fake gig, being a real fake girl. How do
you do that? I don't know. You re dressed as
the meme. You gotta have some kind of clever. I'll
think about that later. Um, I did dress up as
a generic enemy girl. I think that's what it was.
My character was generic Asian anime character, and I was
wearing a school girl uniform that was just for one event.
(39:29):
It again, I'll never do it again because I actually
busted two tires and had to go to the varsity
and weigh on someone to help me change tires in
that costume. Oh Man, on a day that wasn't dragon Con,
nor was it Helloween. If someone's birthday party who loved
dragon Con and wanted to have their birthday party that
trader of vix and so they asked us to dress up,
and I did it because it was their birthday. I
would like that to be known. Okay, you were doing it,
(39:50):
you were acting for a friend. I understand. I won't
make I hope there's no pictures. I've often felt that way,
but I guess our hopeful note. I just wanna once
again reiterate sharing is what makes fandom beautiful, what helps
it grow and thrive and become better, not shutting out
(40:10):
like a fandom that you'd never allowed a change and
you never allow new people in will die right and
it's so much fun because, like I said, I get
caught onto your excitement. The reason I haven't watched and
i've seen it before, The Winter Soldiers because I know
how much you love it, so I know it's gonna
be even better watching it with you. And that's why
I'm like, this is fun even though like I like
(40:31):
it a lot and I watched it a lot, but
I don't like, I'm not all into it as you are.
That you have a costume that you keep fixing up
and making better each year, the arm four point oh
yea um. But like that's the thing is a true fandom.
If you're a true fan, you would want other people
to understand it too. Yeah, and at varying levels. Just
the fact that you're willing to watch the movie, that's
(40:54):
all I'm excited. I wish we had video footage of
that time you read the list of best Marvel movies
and you're reactions from worst to best, And as it
get gets further and further, and the winner Soldier hasn't
been announced, right, number one is number one, and then
it was number one. This is turning into the Winter
Soldier podcast. I apologize, See this is fandom, Um, but
(41:20):
I hope that I hope that we can make it
a better place, a safer place for everyone. Yes, and
we would love for you listeners to write in if
you've had experiences with fake geek girl being called out
and toxic fandom. What costumes are you working on? If
you're gonna be at Giant Con twenty nineteen, let us know,
Come find it. I'll be in all black with Any's backpack.
(41:43):
Come find me my very recognizable black pack pack. Yep.
You can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at
i heeart media dot com. You can find us on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our superproducer
Andrew Howard Andrew, and thanks to you for listening. Deth
on the Never Toldy's prodection of I Heart Radio's house
Stuff Works. For more podcast from iHeart Radio, visit the
(42:04):
iHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or if you listen to
your favorite shows
Hey, this Sanny in Samantha and welcome to stuff. I've
never told your protection of I heart Adios how stuff First,
as we record this, listeners, Dragon Con, which is a
convention of all things nerdum that drew over eighty thousand
(00:26):
people last year is coming to Atlanta. It takes place
every Labor Day weekend in the city, taking over five
hotels in Midtown and pretty much everything in that vicinity,
especially Peach Tree Mallum. I've been going for like eight
years now. I've been going for a while, but hilariously
not while I was a student at Georgia Tech, which
is both close and is known as a geek college.
(00:49):
I didn't even know about it. Um. But Samantha and
I will be there um or we were there depending
on when you listen to this, and I will be
in costume either as the Winter Soldier of course. Pick
up from How to Train Your Dragon with a Flaming Sword.
It's gonna be cool Spider Woman with perhaps a joke
about like Disney and Sony and being or something. I
(01:11):
don't know, snap judgment with my favorite drunk purchase I've
ever made the fans car right. You figured out that
that one didn't you. Oh yeah, I went it showed up.
I was like, what is this huge box? Oh, it's
an infinite and it's a giant. Of course it is,
of course it is. UM and UM. I have possible
side costumes like Ellie from the Last of Us, UM,
(01:31):
Catwoman from The Dark Night and that series. She's not
in that movie, don't don't write in about it. UM,
and Hella from thor Ragnarok. I just loved like black Messy,
I make up. I'm in UM, but come find us.
We might be recording right UM, and I'm gonna be there.
I will not be dressing up. I'm going to be
(01:52):
the person in the corner staring around in awe and
probably disbelief. Yes, I'm gonna assume that's going to be
my reaction because this will be the first one that
I will ever have attended. And the only reason I'm
going is as support an audience for you, essentially and
apparently maybe a backpack carrier. Yeah, because I don't want
to ruin my costume, but that that's fair and that's fair.
And I'm going to be in the corner with the
(02:13):
recording equipment, hopefully if we can get that in UM
talking to different women and those who have are dressing
as females, I guess essentially um and see what's going
on in their heads and how they came up with
their costumes. Because I will say the one thing about
dragon Con just going through the parade or even driving
through Atlanta during this time, there's some elaborate costumes and
(02:34):
people put a lot of hard work and a lot
of money in these things. Oh yeah, and that's my
favorite part of of dragon Con is just seeing the
creativity of the costumes. A lot of puns, and you
know I love pun. There's so many puns. Oh yeah,
I've got I got some good pun costs you, I mean,
snap judgment obviously. But we're not only talking about dragon
(02:58):
Con today, although it might come up some We're talking
about the fake geek girl and toxic fandom at large.
And this is something that I do know a lot about,
and we've touched on these topics and a handful of episodes,
but I'm pretty sure, unless my memory and Google is
failing me, we've never done an entire episode on it.
(03:19):
And there is a Fake Geek Girls podcast out there. Yeah, okay, So,
definition time geek a person who has excessive enthusiasm for
and some expertise about a specialized subject or activity. Yeah.
I used to have like a debate about like nerd
versus the work hierarchy when it came to those types
(03:43):
of Oh, I've been in many arguments about it. People
have their opinions and they're almost always different. And it's
the one that they claim to be is the best one.
I aloys. See, I always a claimed to be the
nerd I'll always call it. Was called a nerd growing
up because of my love for books and writing. And
you know, see I was always called a dork because
I feel like a dork is a softer. I don't
(04:04):
know a goof ear. This is all just looked it up. Um,
So we look at fake geek girl. This is a
woman pretending to be nerdy to attract male attention. Uh,
there is no other reason for a woman to like something, right,
I have a specialized Yeah, no, just to attracting. That's
(04:26):
why I do things. Oh yeah, that's my whole goal
in life. Right. Um. Usually they are convenually attractive, these
fake geek girls, because it is a real geek dudes fantasy.
It's a woman entering their boys only clubhouse. So the
only way that these women can exist in there is
by being a sexual object to be enjoyed by them.
(04:48):
And geeks are generally assumed to be men unless the
girl not woman, by the way, is added, that already
makes them an outsider. So like just the fact we
have to specify peak is assumed to be male. Get girl,
you have to like have that label. That means the
masculinity of geek culture is just as policed as jocks
(05:10):
are inside locker rooms, and it is a way for
dudes to blame women for rejection. She's just a fake girl.
And so this fake geek girl is a meme. You've
probably seen it. It's um a white woman, a white
young woman with kind of brown hair, bangs, glasses, and
on her hand she has a nerd written on it.
(05:32):
And that's kind of the meme. You'll see, the fake
eat girl. And it's everywhere. It is everywhere. Scott Snyder's
Batman number thirteen had an ad with a woman wearing
a shirt that said impostor on the front, and the
speech bubble said, I basically spend like all day looking
at low cats on Facebook. I'm such a huge nerd.
(05:53):
Then There's Dirk Mannings, who is a comic writer. He
has this Facebook post that said, dear girls who take
pictures in slutty cooling and glass is in labeled the
caption nerd l O L. You're not a nerd, You're
a whore who found classes. An angry man he does.
There's no need for that. Unnecessary. We've got another angry man,
another angry man. There are favorites. Okay, this is from
(06:16):
Tony Harris and it's long, so I'm gonna read it.
I can't remember if I said this before, but I'm
gonna say it anyway. I don't give a crap. I
appreciate a pretty gal as much as the next hetero male.
Sometimes I even go in for some racy type stuff,
keeping the comments PG for my lady's sake. But damn it,
damn it, damn it. I am so sick and tired
(06:37):
of the whole cosplay chicks. I know a few who
are actually pretty cool and big shocker, love and read comics,
so as in all things, they are the exception to
the rule. Here's the statement I want to make based
on the rule. Hey, quasi pretty not hot girl, you
are more pathetic than the real nerds who you secretly
think are really pathetic, but we are onto you. Some
(07:00):
of us are aware that you are ever so average
on an everyday basis, but you have a couple of
things going your way. You're willing to become almost completely
naked in public, and you're either skinny, will some or
most of you think that you are, Or you have
big boobies. Notice I didn't say great boobies. You are
(07:22):
what I refer to as con hot. Well, not by
my estimation, but according to a lot of average comic
book fans who either rarely speak to or never speak
to girls, some virgins, all un confident when it comes
to girls, and the one thing they all have in common,
they are being preyed on by you. You have this
(07:42):
really awful need for attention, for people to tell you
you are pretty or hot, and the thought of guys
pleasuring themselves to the memory of you hagging on them
with your glossy open lips, promising them the moon and
the stars of pleasure just makes your head vibrate. After
many years of watching this go down, every three second,
it's around in front of my booth or table at
any given con in this country, I put this together. Well,
(08:05):
not just me, we are legion and here it is
the reason why all that sickens as because you don't
know about comics beyond whatever Google image search you did
to get reference on the most mainstream character with the
most revealing costume ever. And also, if any of these
guys that you hang on tried to talk to you
out of the con, you wouldn't give them the same
(08:26):
time of day. Shut up, you damned lyar No, you
would not, lying, liar face, You're not comics. You're just
the thing that all the comic book and mainstream press
flocked two at cons. And the real reason for the
con and the damned costumes you're preading around in that
would be comic book artists and comic book writers who
make all that up. Okay, why is he so angry?
(08:48):
Why isn't he just letting it go? And hey, even
if that is the case, you're getting publicity. Move on, man,
you should just send him a note. Man, you sound
sad and you sell You've been rejected a lot. But
I'm probably gonna get docs just for saying this, because
I'm sure he's somebody's hero who is really sad and lonely,
as he said, and it's like, oh, you're staying up
(09:08):
for all men. Good job. I don't know how to
stay that would. Sit down, Calm down, You're insignificant. If
this is what you have to rant about, this is
your issue in life, just sit down. Yeah, it'll be okay, dude.
Just they're pretty, move all. You know. You don't have
to compliment them. You don't even have to look at
that costume. You don't have any of those things. They
(09:28):
don't have to exist for you. It's fine. Just let
them be. Are you so sad and lonely? Samantha's turned
this around on you, sir. I'm just saying it's gonna
be okay. Boo, book will be okay. And then there's
Joe Peacock, who wrote there's a growing chorus of frustration
in the geek community with and there's no other way
(09:49):
to put this. Pretty girls pretending to be geeks for attention.
San Diego Comic Con is the largest vehicle, but it's
hardly the only convention populated with quote, hot chicks wearing
skimpy outfits simply to get a bunch of golf and
geeks heads to turn just to satisfy their hollow egos. Okay,
I'm so seriously confused about why they are so upset
(10:09):
about pretty girls. Oh well, they're upset about pretty girls
existing in their space and not being sexual objects just
for them to consume. Well, it's that in part too.
There's this sense of if you were a child and
being a nerd was not cool and you got beat
up for it, perhaps that you had to go through
(10:31):
this stuff and it's like an exclusive club. And now
people are just in their minds they just look good.
Don't understand it coming into our world. So it's the
whole world of I'll listen to them before they're popular.
I like this before they were cool mentality. Yeah, and
there's definite gate keeping and entitlement and we're going to
talk about some of this more later. And also just
(10:53):
um a geek anything that depends on expertise, to like
your credentials of how much of a gee q r
depends on how much you know about a certain thing,
then they're automatically with that is a level of judgment
of thinking. I can understand it. They're upset because someone
else is making money on something they didn't dedicate themselves too.
But just enjoying it. Yeah, it seems kind of harsh. Well,
(11:17):
and also, and we mentioned this a little bit, in
fan fiction, there is a people look down on how
women more traditionally celebrate fandom, like writing fan fiction or
making costumes, because if you look at arts and crafts,
who are more likely to engage in that it is women.
(11:39):
So women are making these costumes, and some of these
men are looking down on that as that it's not
true fandom, that is not true nerdom? How dare they?
How dare they? And who agrees is Dr nerd Love
who responded being sexy as great, as long as you've
(11:59):
passed this ideological test that shows that you are in
ded a true geek and not one of those hideous posers.
I'm sure Peacock, who is the person whose comments we've
just read, I'm sure Peacock means well, But what he
is saying is, ladies, you're only allowed to express yourself
sexually if you follow my rules. This is continuing the
long running attitudes still prevalent in geek culture that women
(12:19):
are allowed to partake in fandom and geek culture if
and only if they fulfill specific criteria, and even then
only if they participate in preapproved manners. The fake geek
girl is the nerd equivalent of the welfare queen, a
semi mythical beast who somehow ruins things for everybody by well,
nobody's entirely sure, confusing their poor sad boners. Evidently nobody
(12:43):
has ever been able to explain, to my satisfaction just
how this hurts geek culture. Somebody dressing up in a
sexy costume because being ogle makes them feel good doesn't
affect me or my friends participation in geek culture in
any meaningful way. Putting the blame on these fake geek
attention grabbers for narrowly to finding the role of women
and keepdom only serves to resolve the men who act
(13:03):
as gatekeepers, insisting that the only role open to women
is to be a sexual object rather than a full partner,
while denigrating them for doing so. At the exact same time,
the idea of the fake geek girl only serves as
a way of dismissing or diminishing the presence of women
and keepdom. If she doesn't conform to some arbitrary standard,
she's clearly a fake, only in it for the attention,
(13:25):
Because if there's anything women do. It's been hours upon
hours of time and effort just a ryle dudes up
with absolutely no payoff. That's what I'm doing here, isn't
that what you're doing here? Yeah? I love rolling dudes up? Yeah,
never mind, never mind, never mind about um. And so
from my personal experience being in costumes at conventions, I've
(13:50):
had men come up to me and quiz me, for sure,
how much do you know about this character? Do you
know every Russian word that sets off the winners soldier?
Can you do them for me? Um? I can do.
I can do what I would assume is not very
great Russian pronunciation, but I know the general sounds have more.
I'm like, I'm more, not more impressed, but I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
(14:12):
of course you wouldn't know. Of course you're Annie, of
course you wouldn't know. I have watched Winter Soldiers several
several times. I almost watched it last night. I couldn't
because you weren't there. We gotta wait, we gotta do
it together. Men ask if they can pose with me
in sexy ways, take pictures where I'm in like some
kind of sexy pose, like holding my breasts are making
out or carrying me on their shoulder. Um. I've had
(14:34):
men accused me of knowing nothing about the character I
was dressed as. Men say, um that they see me
every year and they know quote exactly what I'm doing.
What I don't know, they know I don't know. I'm
just trying to have fun here. On the other side
of the spectrum, I've had men act offensively impressed that
(14:56):
I know literally anything about nerd him and immediately act
as though we must have sex immediately. We've we've got
a date. We were soulmates, obviously. Um. The first year
I went there, an old man bought me a bud light.
The first year I went to drink on and then
asked me up to his hotel room a bud light.
A bud light. That's not that's not the drink to
go to to be like, Hey, come hang with me
(15:17):
in my hotel room. And I'm so oblivious. I was
just thrilled at a free beer that I saw someone
else before. Look, if you're gonna buy me a beer,
I'm gonna move on. Like that's not a promise, that's
as you being dumb. Future episode. I actually want to
re examine that because I've always kind of been torn
on what to do anyway. Okay, UM, all kinds of
(15:39):
one want to touching. We've done episodes about that, and
you've probably heard it in the news. UM and the
attitude that since you're dressed up as a certain character
is totally cool, like you're no longer human anymore. They're
this rendering of a character that they have an idea about. UM.
Or sometimes they think it's just funny, especially because I
gender been so I'm usually dressed as like a female
(16:00):
version of a male character, so a lot of dudes
think that's hilarious. Um. I've had cops make inappropriate comments
and asked me out when I'm dressed in costume, and
we have literally not said anything to each other. It
just comes up. You know what, I'd like tack you
out of date, No sir, No sir. UM and Samith
(16:21):
and I at our upcoming convention, we're gonna take it
tally of how many sexist comments we receiver over here.
We're gonna do a little survey find out how prevalent
that is. Because last year they did have an incident UM,
and they actually had a video I think of a
woman being accosted and they were trying to find this
man at Dragon Con. So I know that people have
become a little more aware of what's happening and how
(16:43):
inappropriate this is. I have certainly observed so much sexism
at cons and it is certainly deterred some of my
friends from going. And I have seen women judge women
dressed for too sexy, for essentially being fakey girls. I
have friends of mine that used to do that before
they grew up and realized the error of their ways, right,
(17:03):
But I've seen women do it. That's the things like
I Again, I know I've said repeatedly one of the
reasons I don't go to convention like this as an
Asian woman, there's a whole level of fetishism that happens already.
So when you go into and for me, even though
there's so many other things that Dragon con, animal is
one of the first things I think of, and that's
typically one of the right you know, I was like,
(17:25):
oh no, oh no, no, we can't hang out if
you're obsessed. It's one thing to have an interest, and
it's the one thing to like it. But to me,
there's a whole level of why you want to talk
to me right, So that to me, like, even though
I think it's getting less and less, but that if
that is just still very very very existent. I definitely
get asked out based on me being Asian and now
my sexy voice just getting at um. But I'm just like,
(17:48):
that's one of the reasons I stay away, far far away,
and I typically don't dress up. If I dressed up,
it's going to be a funny character then a sexy
character typically for me. Yeah, and caveat here. I do
normally have a pretty good experience. This is making it
sound horrible, but I want to say this. All of
this stuff happens to me when I'm alone. Um, I
(18:11):
think when we're together, I'm not sure that this is
going to happen. Well, it's kind of like that pack mentality,
and I'm sure, well we could go into that later on.
But men have this thing about women being alone versus
being in a pack. But sometimes it doesn't even determine
in general, especially if there's a male in the group,
then that kind of like or someone of the opposite
sex or someone of different sex that that just kind
(18:31):
of pulled everything apart for the right pray versus predator mentality,
but it kind of is. So. Yeah, I could definitely say,
especially at these types of conferences, if you're not with
a group, that obviously means you need friends quote unquote yeah,
m hmm. Look at that lonely winter soldier. I think
I'll go up and harass her. That's what I think
(18:53):
every time. Yeah. Sure. And another thing I want to
add in here is something that I've only started to
think about after being on this show is being feminist
and wearing costumes that were designed with the male gaze
of minds, so sexy costumes and feeling conflict about it,
especially when there are young children around. Because it's one
(19:16):
thing I've said it before. I love dressing up in
sexy costumes every now that not all the times, sometimes
I'm not in the place, but sometimes feeling it. I
do it for myself, but I don't think it's perceived
that way because our society has not set it up
to be perceived that way for so long. So I
worry that kids see that perception as opposed to just
the strong woman who wants to dress sexy. Um. So
(19:39):
that's in the back of my head now too. That's
something I think about, well, if you think about old
comics and the characters and the way women were drawn
in general, they're like what the hell they're wearing? And
now today's translations into our movie in you know, Wonder Woman,
it's kind of like that fine balance. And that's another
(19:59):
thing that I hope we'll get to come back to,
because a lot of people have written about it, is
why is it that women when during Halloween say they
it's become like sexy costumes? And I think I subscribe
to the mean girls theory. That is because we're judged
so harshly any other time for dressing sexy, So it's
like the one time we feel like we can. But
(20:21):
there's a lot of other stuff at play. I haven't
done the research yet, so if you disagree, please don't
yell at me quite yet. But that's something that we'll
return to. Me is just wearing all black with some
kind of animal ears. That's the best way to go
that you're wearing all black and then cattiers. Well I
did rabbit ears one year. Comfort is key. Yes, comfort
(20:43):
is key. So why does this whole fake girl thing exist? Well?
Has always for a couple of reasons. One nerd Um
has long been seen as a male alternative for being
traditionally a male. So it's the alternative if you're not
that buff, strong due that is. You know, when we
think of the most masculine, manly man, that's the image,
(21:06):
the sports jock type thing. So nerd m has been
the alternative to that. And in our movies we see
it all the time. You got the jocks and the nerds,
and the nerds always get the girl. They're entitled to
the girl because the male dude wrote it and that's
what they think. Um. Having knowledge, being a nerd was
(21:26):
another way to be competent. So if a woman started
doing this, then does that mean nerd them is less
manly or nerds are only passing as men? And or
if it is defined on how much you know, then
it fosters gatekeeping, like we said, and men have traditionally
done this gatekeeping, and women who got past that frequently
(21:48):
had to give up a part of their identity to
do so, so be a less feminine, not this pretty
fake geek girl. Um, So it can be easy to
lash out against people women in in this scenario that
didn't give up a part of their identity in our eyes. Um,
like you have to do that. Fans of something see
(22:10):
it as part of their identity. Hardcore. It is hardcore,
but it doesn't have to be there different. There are
different levels of fandom. And like I said earlier, I
think a part of it too is that nerdom used
to come with this rite of passage of getting beat
up or being isolated. So when you see someone who
you think didn't have to go through that using the
(22:31):
label you used to find solace or to find people
like you to feel us alone, then you might want
to lash out. And I know we read something about
that in our I think our Star Wars episode about
toxic fandom. Um, but I can't I can never find it.
But I know John evers a bit where he says, nerds,
you've inherited the earth. It's over. Well that's kind of
(22:54):
a new joke as how, that's kind of Um. I
think it was the silly movie with Jonah Hill and
Channing Tatum, the Little Cut movie, Yeah one, and then
they go they go back to school, but the roles
of a reverse and now Joan is the cool kid
who was the nerd in high school and got beat
up and the jock was always Now is being made
fun of which is Chane Tatum yafter like it does
(23:16):
the flip and then like although in the early nineties
late eighties, the Nerds had their own franchise, The Revenge
of the Nerds. I know, it was a whole it
was really creepy movie too. It was terrible. It was
really awful, But they had a whole franchise based on
we will of course he's nerds, really buff Nerds. It
was really weird to me. But yeah, stuff like that
has become a part of like the flip of the
(23:37):
script of mentality. And as I said, there are different
levels of fandom, so that's a totally okay thing. Some
of us are we're all in. Some of us are casual,
and it differs from fandom to fandom. And I personally
don't understand gate keeping and shutting people out from fandoms
that we love. I feel like I want to share
it with everybody. I think you do that really well,
(23:59):
which is also why I've been watching Supernatural. It was
because of you. Essentially, you talked about it enough element cool.
I'll get it because I am a maybe they would
call me a poser because I enjoy it. I know
about it, but I'm not gonna go all the way
into that. That's your level, that's my levels. Like I
will I like all the Captain Marvel movies. I will
(24:20):
watch them, and I will not watch them ten times
in a week. Annie, I don't know, Samantha. Just let
me be a little bit more persuasive. I gets here
and there, but like things like that, I won't be
standing in line for four hours to go ride a
Hagrid ride. Well occasion to do it, you would have
been able to walk right on. So think about that.
(24:42):
I was there, and I love the new text that
I get from you to show me the way times
of the Haggard ride, even though we're nowhere near Every
morning I checked got down to two hours that one fifty,
I was like, oh god, she's gonna get on a plane,
like she's gonna try to get there now. Um, But yeah,
(25:04):
I definitely am one of those. But yeah, I could definitely.
I definitely see the dedication and people when you start
seeing message boards and actually seeing like icons people use
that what there are pictures profile pictures of whatever character
they're in love with. It's pretty fascinating. Oh absolutely, I
totally agree, and it's I love the creativity of the costumes,
(25:26):
and part of that like the crafting, as we said
that that's predominantly female. Um, but the creativity of it
and just seeing the puns people come up with, just
how impressive something is and it takes time and it
takes money. You can do it cheaply, but it can
be very expensive. And to just dismiss that as this
(25:50):
isn't real fandom, right, that doesn't make any sense. A
little research alone to get the precision people's the details
on these people's costumes are amazing. Oh yeah, and they
might even be sexy. How dare you I guess someone
going to a sexy Panos I guarante. Last year, one
(26:11):
of the costumes I remember the most, and I apologize
in advance, was the sexy Penny Wise h which I
just saw that movie. It was a really good which,
by the way, I know this has nothing to do
with this, but that whole scene with him being in
the room full of the figurines and of clowns, That's
what I'm talking about. That's what I'm scared of. That
(26:31):
Savantha's very specific fear they came to life. Well, okay,
I'll keep that in mind. I'll try to get better
about warning you about statues that's bad, whatever they are. Um, yeah,
I just I'm not down with this looking I'm not
down with looking down on how other people express their
(26:54):
fandom as long as it's not hurting anybody else. I
don't get it. I think that's the mantra, doesn't bother you.
If it's not actually physically taking away a right or
happiness or something that's actually then why then why why?
And also women have always been geeks. Just want to
put that out there throughout history. I know Mary Shelley
(27:14):
isn't an example of one of the first geeks. Um,
we're just more visible now and we're taking up space
and people don't like And also people are actually acknowledging
that yes as a thing. We have some more for
you on toxic fandom, but first we have a quick
break for word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank
(27:48):
you sponsored. So, toxic fandom. This has been thrown about
our vernacular a lot lately, and it's made up of
three things. Essentially, entitlement, a feeling of superior priority, and possessiveness.
If that fandom has been traditionally white and male, then
anything outside of that that that messes with this sense
(28:08):
of possessiveness, and it's not limited to nerdy things at all.
Music is another another big one, like K pop. I
know that's come out the example of how female singers
can't date because the fans are so possessive. It's like
an old school back throwback when actors we're not allowed
to share anything about the private lab and had to
pretend like they are always open, we're never in a
(28:31):
relationship and single, right. I heard that rumor kind of
around Taylor Swift for a while, like I know, like,
but then they get really possessive in the sense of
Justin Bieber when he and Selena Gomez broke up and
he got married, they started going after his wife like
mean because they just it should have been this other woman.
And you're just gonna like, damn you all let them
(28:52):
live their lives. Why. I get it. If you don't
like his music, sure, if he's a dick, sure, but
because he married someone else that level and then we
know the hive will come after you. Um. They these
people are really scary. They're they're very passionate, and they're
very passionate. Yes, and and some of these uh celebrities
(29:16):
have had to address their fan base and say I
will not tolerate this type of behavior. You're right. Um.
And if we go back to entitlement that comes with
a sense of ownership. Um, this might involve death threats
to the creator if things don't go the way that
the fan thinks that it should. Game of Thrones, Yeah,
(29:38):
the petitions see that fairly often, actually, and I hear
it with any kind of ending. People don't like, oh
my gosh, but they make things happen, like the Veronica
Malar stuff. Well, that's an example of good fandom, although
that does come with the double edged sort of then
you feel like you have to do fan service because
(29:59):
they essentially made it happen, which Christin Bell actually she
talked about it, Yeah, she did. Um. And then if
we look at the superiority, you're better than the so
called enormis or casuals to the terms they use are muggles. Sometimes,
even outside of Harry Potter, toxic fandom is sometimes called
(30:19):
protective fandom. Fans thinking that they are protecting are preserving
the fandom as they believe it should be. Um. And
I've told the story on this very show how I
stopped playing games online because of toxic fandom. Michelle Rodriguez
was booed after saying destructive male culture while on a
panel called Women Who Kick Ass. A man shouted at
(30:40):
her women who talked too much. Then there's Bree Larson
the whole I think she just said we need more
women and everyone was like fire her immediately. Um. And
then the reaction to Marvel Phase four, which is much
more diverse than it has been traditionally, people saying, oh,
(31:00):
this is it's ruined, like three women exactly, how dare you?
And then they're all white red oads. Right. There's even
that cut of the Avengers where they took out all
the women all male Avengers. That thinks like that. And
then if you look at Star Wars, there's Daisy Daisy
Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran being bullied off social media.
(31:23):
They're both in the new Star Wars. And then the
movies like, um, Charlie Staron was on Mad Max. They're
pissed that she was one of the heroes, even though
essentially she still got rescued. Yeah, and I'm just like,
what's happening? And their whole men's men's rights movement about
boycotting that movie and things like that. It's just so affling. Yeah,
(31:45):
another thing that baffles me. Actors on Voltron received death
threats because of their response to questions around shipping. So
I've said it in another episode, but this is when
you are pushing for a certain relationship and they thought that.
I think the actors just said, I like, people should
ship whoever they want and everyone, not everyone, but a
(32:06):
very vocal group of fans said you're wrong, this is
the only ship you monster death threats. Then Dan Harmon
have he had to essentially condemned half the fans of
Rick and Morty. Really, yes, and there it's one of
those things, unfortunate things where it's been taken by men's
(32:31):
rights activists and sort of turned into so like we
talked about in cells, so that like alpha is Rick
and then Beta is Morty, and then whatever the dad's name, Jerry,
he's the other thing. Um. And they attacked to McDonald's
and I think San Francisco some Rick and Morty fans
because they ran out of the sechue sauce. They were
(32:53):
threatening McDonald's employees. This is a cartoon, right, and people
don't get mad at me and I'm like over a
cartoon of a non existent place and characters. Correct, and
I'm sorry, I'm going off track. Keep going. Stephen Universe
artist was forced to quit after she was threatened by
(33:15):
fans for drawing a appairing ship that they didn't like.
Members of a Sherlock panel the BBC Show were harassed
based on their preference of who tops in that universe.
Huh exactly. I think one of them was given a
(33:36):
candy with needles in it. Oh my god. Then there's
the practice of swatting. That's when you call swat teams
on someone during a gaming dispute, and this has resulted
in at least one death. That's a twenty years sentence.
Rotten Tomatoes changed its review policy to prevent mostly male
participants in toxic fandom from bombing movies on their site,
(33:58):
usually before they've been seeing them. Movies with fee out
and or people of color and lead roles Captain Marvel, Black, Panther,
Wonder Woman, they were all targets. The New Ghostbusters, Star Wars,
Last Jedi Tumbler added tag blocking and fandoms have this
power because this is a group that people who make
movies studios feel beholden to because that it's guaranteed money
(34:23):
if he pleased them. And I'm sorry if that fails callous,
but it's true, right um. And that can prevent studios
from making more inclusive choices um or like braver storyline choices.
And this is not to absolve studios at all at all,
but we can't absolve toxic fandom either, especially when studios
do make these decisions and the actors pay the price
(34:45):
via social media. It's like a reverse death of the
author problem when the fans are the problem, not the creator,
and creators can be involved in it too, though, especially
when they say a true fan can only believe in
their interpretation. Yes, I believe Anne Rice is a good example.
(35:06):
And and it's really bad this whole thing in terms
of things like fight Club or The Matrix, where toxic
again largely male fans took the original work and turned
it into something poisonous like representative of red pill blue pill.
And that's not how it was meant. I mean, fight
Club was supposed to be a satire about toxic masculinity, um.
(35:28):
But it has been usurped every every time. That is
why we can't have nice things. Yes, hashtag not all fans.
We're making it sound awful. They are parts of it,
parts of it that are just truly terrible and frightening,
(35:48):
and it scared some people away, and it's that is
really frustrating to me. Um. Some of it, though, is
beautiful and rewarding and sometimes transformative. It can give you hobbies, friends,
maybe even significant others. Um. It can be a place
to find your tribe. I found one of my best friends.
I went up to talk to her because she had
a Harry Potter folder. It's the whole reason why I
talked to her and we're still best friends. To this stay,
(36:10):
she will be a jack Oh is she? And you guys?
Are are you guys the ones going to uh Orlando
November Full Circle? It's it's all coming full together thanks
to fan of It's a place you can hone your creativity.
It can be all these things, but it can be
very very toxic. It can be also a thing that
(36:32):
is a criteria. Um, where like if they don't like
Harry Potter, I'm very suspicious of you. I used to
have that rule and dating kind of like jokingly and
kind of seriously, like you're gonna have to either start
watching it now, yeah, or we're gonna watch them together
or read them. And that's just how it is. But
there are a few things that I'm like, like, if
(36:53):
you don't like this, we're gonna have to have talk.
We're gonna because it's gonna be on just you're just
gonna deal with it. When I'm sitting there watching all
nine eight videos of it of Harry Potter, eight eight
videos back to back to back to back. Yeah, and
I don't want your snipe comments. Don't start with me exactly.
We sound like we're very We've got good criteria for dating,
(37:17):
must like Harry Potter. Check and that's why I'm not married.
I don't want to be. Uh well, we do have
a little bit more for you, but first we have
one more quick break forward from our sponsor and we're back.
(37:42):
Thank you sponsor. So toxic fandom is a big topic
right now. I feel like fate geek girl, the tide
is turning where most people are like, that's nonsense, it
doesn't exist. There's definitely still angry men who are pointing
at any sexy lady that walks by. Uh. I feel
like now there's women are pointing at them. I'm like,
(38:03):
m hm, right, So I think I think the tide
is turning there slowly, ever so slowly. Toxic fandom has
been up in the news a lot, and it just
the fact that it's influenced these companies to change their policies,
says a lot. So I wasn't able to find I
we always want to end on a hopeful note. Here's
(38:23):
what you can do. Well, I couldn't find too much,
but I did see a near feed. You can mute,
our block and or report toxic fans and your feeds.
There's a debate around just muting versus actually reporting, because
then it will remove it from all of your followers feeds. So, uh,
(38:43):
perhaps a future episode on that one from YouTuber a
LB in Wonderland. There is no such thing as a
fake eat girl. There are only girls who are different
varying levels of falling in love with something that the
society generically considers to fall under the nerd culture category. Right,
so the fake girl that's a good costume actually being
(39:03):
a fake gig, being a real fake girl. How do
you do that? I don't know. You re dressed as
the meme. You gotta have some kind of clever. I'll
think about that later. Um, I did dress up as
a generic enemy girl. I think that's what it was.
My character was generic Asian anime character, and I was
wearing a school girl uniform that was just for one event.
(39:29):
It again, I'll never do it again because I actually
busted two tires and had to go to the varsity
and weigh on someone to help me change tires in
that costume. Oh Man, on a day that wasn't dragon Con,
nor was it Helloween. If someone's birthday party who loved
dragon Con and wanted to have their birthday party that
trader of vix and so they asked us to dress up,
and I did it because it was their birthday. I
would like that to be known. Okay, you were doing it,
(39:50):
you were acting for a friend. I understand. I won't
make I hope there's no pictures. I've often felt that way,
but I guess our hopeful note. I just wanna once
again reiterate sharing is what makes fandom beautiful, what helps
it grow and thrive and become better, not shutting out
(40:10):
like a fandom that you'd never allowed a change and
you never allow new people in will die right and
it's so much fun because, like I said, I get
caught onto your excitement. The reason I haven't watched and
i've seen it before, The Winter Soldiers because I know
how much you love it, so I know it's gonna
be even better watching it with you. And that's why
I'm like, this is fun even though like I like
(40:31):
it a lot and I watched it a lot, but
I don't like, I'm not all into it as you are.
That you have a costume that you keep fixing up
and making better each year, the arm four point oh
yea um. But like that's the thing is a true fandom.
If you're a true fan, you would want other people
to understand it too. Yeah, and at varying levels. Just
the fact that you're willing to watch the movie, that's
(40:54):
all I'm excited. I wish we had video footage of
that time you read the list of best Marvel movies
and you're reactions from worst to best, And as it
get gets further and further, and the winner Soldier hasn't
been announced, right, number one is number one, and then
it was number one. This is turning into the Winter
Soldier podcast. I apologize, See this is fandom, Um, but
(41:20):
I hope that I hope that we can make it
a better place, a safer place for everyone. Yes, and
we would love for you listeners to write in if
you've had experiences with fake geek girl being called out
and toxic fandom. What costumes are you working on? If
you're gonna be at Giant Con twenty nineteen, let us know,
Come find it. I'll be in all black with Any's backpack.
(41:43):
Come find me my very recognizable black pack pack. Yep.
You can email us at Stuff Media, mom Stuff at
i heeart media dot com. You can find us on
Twitter at mom Stuff podcast and on Instagram at Stuff
I've Never Told You. Thanks as always to our superproducer
Andrew Howard Andrew, and thanks to you for listening. Deth
on the Never Toldy's prodection of I Heart Radio's house
Stuff Works. For more podcast from iHeart Radio, visit the
(42:04):
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