The Maestras of Classical Music

In fall 2013, a Russian orchestra conductor sparked international controversy when he said that women cut out for conducting. Cristen and Caroline look at the male-dominated world of classical music and the women like Marin Alsop who are challenging the maestro stereotype.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm
Caroline and I'm Kristin. Today we're doing another fabulous listener
request talking about women in classical music, specifically conductors. And

(00:23):
what really struck me as Prison and I were reading
a lot about this field of work is that it
is such an interesting microcosm of feminist issues, women's issues
that we have touched on a million times in the podcast,
everything from gender discrimination to issues about whether to have
and raise children. It runs the whole gamut. Yeah, And

(00:46):
one of the reasons why our listeners suggests that this
topic is because women conductors have been in the news recently. Right.
Conductor Marin Also, who's the music director of the Baltimore
and sal Paulo Symphony Orchestra, is made history in September
as the first woman to conduct the high profile Last
Night of the Proms. And it's nearly one and twenty

(01:08):
year history. And for those not in the know, I
was not in the know me neither. The Last Night
of the Proms marks the end of London's eight week
summer season of classical music and it is a big deal. Yeah,
And so Alsop said, quote, A lot has been made
of me being the first woman to conduct the last Night,
and I'm incredibly honored and proud, but I have to

(01:31):
say it's amazing that there can still be a first
for women in two thousand thirteen. And that's just one
of many fantastic quotes that Alsop has made. Um And
we'll talk more about her a little bit in the podcast,
but she among women in conducting all stop is at
the top of her field, and she's very outspoken about

(01:53):
this issue of women in conducting. Although we should say
that's not the first time that Alsop was at the Proms.
Earlier in September she led the Orchestra of the Age
of Enlightenment, and last summer she led Essal Apollo Symphony
Orchestra at the Proms as well. And unfortunately it wasn't
just the merit of her own accomplishment that landed her

(02:14):
in the news. It was also the reaction that her
accomplishment garnered, mainly from Russian men. Uh So, in early September,
Vasily Patrinka, who's the principal conductor of the National Youth
Orchestra and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic said a whole bunch
of stuff, and I'm picturing him like running his mouth

(02:36):
and not being able to stop it. He one of
the many things he said was a cute girl on
a podium means that musicians think about other things. And
this is like an age old argument, I guess against
having women as conductors. They say that, you know, as
opposed to a mail conductor, during which you know, musicians

(02:56):
have less sexual energy and can actually focus on the muse. Sick. Yeah.
He also went on to say that when women have families,
it becomes difficult to be as dedicated as is demanded
in this business. Now, I will say that Petrenko obviously
was called out for these kinds of sexist comments, and
then he backtracked and said, no, you're misunderstanding what I

(03:19):
was saying. My wife actually is in an orchestra. I
love women in music. It's kind of like making a
racist statement and then saying, but I have a friend
who was black. Um, it does not take away actually
the heart of what you are saying. But this is
also not the first time that statements have been made

(03:40):
like this, because a year ago Uri Tamir Khanoff, who
was Mary and Eli STEP's predecessor at the Baltimore Symphony
was being interviewed and he said a woman should be beautiful, likable, attractive. Yeah,
you're a and then he goes on to say musicians
will look at her and be distracted from the music.
Oh come on, yeah, And I mean everybody's come up

(04:01):
with arguments against that, like really logical, common sense arguments
like are you are you telling me that there aren't
people in the orchestra already who would be attracted to
an attractive, good looking, handsome conductor who is male, Like
who cares? Like aren't you there in the orchestra to
play music right? Well? And I mean that statement is

(04:22):
also saying that that women are are merely useful when
they sit still and look pretty. Um. But this issue
of the this idea of the male conductor of the maestro.
You know, the title of this podcast is the Maestras
of Classical Music, because a lot of times when we
think of the conductor, it is a dude. And that

(04:44):
was something that Alex Ross wrote about um in The
New Yorker recently. Yeah, he said that the principle of
male power is so deeply ingrained in the mythology of
the conductor that sentiments such as these are still not uncommon,
and he calls it the stiflingly male atmosphere in the
upper echelons of classical music that reinforces the image of
a dim, hide bound art out of tune with modern reality.

(05:07):
I mean, it is kind of ikey and weird to
look at the the profession of classical music and orchestra
conducting and see just how backwards it still is. Women
have to actively, it seems like, hide their femininity to
pass as an acceptable conductor. Well, and that doesn't sound

(05:29):
different from a lot of other areas that we've talked
about in terms of more traditionally male dominated professions or
uh areas of academia, etcetera. So, even though classical music
might seem like an esoteric subject to talk about, one
of the things that we were so surprised about and

(05:50):
looking into the research for this podcast is how again
and again and again it's going to echo into other
areas that you know, spread well beyond claud psicle music. Um.
For instance, there are differences in the way that we
as the audience perceives the music and the way that

(06:10):
music is conducted by women. According to a study published
in the Journal of Consumer Psychology in February of two
thousand twelve. Yeah, and a lot of how we view
women and men ourselves is reflected in how we view
an orchestra depending on who it is conducted by. So
the researchers found that those who believed they were listening

(06:32):
to a woman conductor, they were obviously not out of performance.
They were listening to music through headphones. Uh, they said.
Those who believe they were listening to a woman conductor
raided the performance higher in feminine qualities such as elegance
and delicacy versus more male qualities like us booming sound
or something um. Overall, they gave the performance higher grades

(06:54):
than those who believe they were listening to a man
and so boiling it down. The researchers determined that if
someone can defy gender stereotypes and earn that much acclaim,
we assume she must be absolutely amazing, and we judge
her accordingly. So kind of like the mayor and alsops.
You know, this trailblazing woman who is at the top
of conducting, not just as a woman but just for

(07:16):
orchestras in general. She often is lauded as being so amazing,
not because she's not amazing, but also I think that
is elevated a bit because of her gender. Look, a
woman's doing it, Yes, it must be incredible. So, speaking
of Alsop, we know that in that case there's at
least one woman conducting an orchestra out there. But what

(07:40):
is the field like? I mean, the Guardian newspaper called
it one of the last glass ceilings in the music industry,
and that's quite a statement, and it's one that is
slowly cracking. According to Henry Fogel, who's the former president
of the League of American Orchestras, back in two thousand seven,
he pointed out that it's safe to say that until
the past fifteen or so years, there simply was no

(08:03):
woman with an important international conducting career. We're not saying
that there were no women conducting, We're just saying that
major orchestras, you know, women like Mari and alstop heading up.
The kind of orchestras of that caliber just weren't around.
And we did see in the nineteen eighties. That's that's
when we see a small surgeon female conductors led by

(08:23):
composer conductor Victoria Bond Buffalo philharmonic conductor Joanne Filetta, and
of course Mayre and Alsop, and in conservatories or graduate
schools and music women are making up about half of
orchestral musicians, but their numbers in the actual orchestras are
pretty small, and among conductors it's really small. And that

(08:46):
again not to keep trying to apply this to other areas,
but that sounds a lot like the situation for Oh,
I don't know, women in science, women in stem. Yeah,
I mean, that's that's what I found so interesting about
it that it does perfectly reflect other fields like that
that are traditionally male dominated. And so in two thousand nine,
The l A Times pointed out that women head up

(09:09):
only about twelve percent of the country's symphonies, and even
training programs are are male dominated. To you know, you
mentioned graduate schools and conservatories, but only a handful of
conducting fellowships are offered to women, giving them that leg
up in the field. And because of that, and also
because Mayor and Alsop is such an awesome woman, she

(09:31):
has set up a fellowship specifically to devote to women
who are interested in conducting, to train them, to fund
their education for that and mother Jones in light of
those sexist comments that were made about Alsop conducting at
the proms UH, they did a tally of orchestras in

(09:53):
the US and they found that about eight percent are
led by men, around are conducted by women, and that
includes assistant and substitute conductors. But then when you break
it down to high budget US orchestras are led by men,
twelve by women. But then when you get into the elite,

(10:14):
the twenty two highest budget orchestras in the United States,
twenty one led by men, one led by a woman,
Marin al Sap, And I will say that um al
Sap has a makers profile over at PBS dot org
and she talks about um how when she was at Juilliard,

(10:38):
she told her teacher that she wanted to become a conductor,
and the teacher just responded and it was a woman too,
who said, Maren, keep playing your violin and be quiet
because women can't conduct orchestras. I mean, come on, And
she decided at that moment that she still wanted to
do it. And it was so cool because she talks
about how she went home and told her mom a

(11:00):
out that story and how her mom went out and
bought her a box of batons, right, so talking about
stuff mom did tell you, Oh my gosh, yeah, that's great.
I mean my mom, well, my mom would have gone
and beat the teacher up, but just thrown the whole
box at him. Um. But so we mentioned at the

(11:22):
top of the podcast just how much conducting reflects broader
society as far as gender norms and discrimination goes. And similarly,
women in conducting also grapple with a lot of the
same issues of motherhood and whether or not to have children.
This is coming from a two thousand six report called

(11:44):
Conducting Motherhood The Personal and Professional Experiences of Women Orchestral Conductors,
and it was written by Bertie Lee Bartley, who is
a conductor herself. She spoke with seventeen professional women conductors
across the US, UK and Australia, five of whom were mothers.
So bart Wheat found that there are a few mothers
working in the orchestral conducting profession, but for those who are,

(12:07):
their private concerns about child rearing haven't been seen as
relevant to their work because there's this assumption that they
should just be able to excel and we shouldn't have
to talk about it. Because you know, if you if
you can't cut it, you know, if it's too hot
in the kitchen, get out. Isn't that I was saying
coats right? Yes, if you can't conduct your orchestra in

(12:29):
a hot kitchen, where can you conduct it? Exactly? Something
like that someone sew on a building and this I
mean you might think, okay, well, what's wrong with that?
You know, maybe you shouldn't bring your your home life
to work, Maybe you shouldn't talk about it and make
yourself all special because you have ovaries. But this really
actually has ramifications for future conductors and the profession as

(12:53):
a whole. If the profession and the culture cannot be
flexible enough to accommodate moms, women, young girls who grow
up they want to be conductors, but then they hit
that wall that we've talked about in previous episodes of
like do I lean in? Do I continue to pursue
my career and you know, go after a mari and
all stop like level of a career who does have

(13:15):
a child? Who does yes, you know, or do they
take a step back and focus more on their family
because the whole thing about conducting is that it is
brutal as far as travel schedules, all of that. Yeah,
I did not realize before looking more into this. I
just hadn't dawned on me of how aggressive the schedule
is for someone who is UM at the top of

(13:36):
the conducting world, because you're going to be going to
London to conduct the prompts and then you might be
going to Style Palo to. Basically I want to be
Marin also, right if that's not coming through UM. So
clearly there are issues of not just time but also
travel and being away from home a lot. And so
Bartley found in talking to these women conductors were that

(13:58):
was that there's this fear that any discussion of motherhood
would serve to marginalize them even more and that's not
going to help them out when they're already such a minority, right,
you know, don't don't make yourself separate, don't make yourself
any more different than you are. Just don't talk about it.
But like we said, you know, the less you talk

(14:19):
about it, the less it will ever get addressed. And
so pregnancy is really seen as disruptive to the profession,
not only personally to you the conductor, but some people
say that you know something that is so obviously feminine,
as being pregnant is disruptive to the whole process, you know,
And so a woman being tired during pregnancy or nauseated,

(14:42):
you know, that's seen as weakness, while men who are tired,
you know, and they're jets setting all over the place,
they get excuses made for them. Yeah, there was one
conductor that she talked to who conducted through her eighth
month of pregnancy and was just saying how she was
so determined to never let, for instance, symptoms of morning

(15:06):
sickness ever be known to anyone in the orchestra, because
you know, she didn't want to undermine her own authority,
because that's one thing I mean, for for al stop
and for other women as well. Getting that sense of
authority from your orchestra can also be an uphill climb
for women, and so when you toss motherhood into that, unfortunately,

(15:30):
it often serves to erode that sense of authority, right,
and then we get into the whole argument of having
it all, which you know we talked about and our
len in episodes. You know, Uh, Bartley's conversations with these
conductors really did focus on the fact that they know
they can't have it all. They know there's no such
thing as having it all. You have to sacrifice a

(15:51):
whole lot if you want to quote unquote have it all.
It's more about doing it all and you can't. Well,
it was interesting too in this study to read about
how a number of these women were child free by
choice and they had no qualms about it. I mean,
like a lot of times, the conversations that we hear
about women who choose intentionally to not have kids so

(16:15):
that they have more time and energy to devote to
their careers, there's often a lot of guilt attached to that.
But for whatever reason, I didn't get that sense from
a lot of these women, maybe because of the determination
it already took to get to the point that they
were in their professions. Um, but it was kind of refreshing, honestly,

(16:36):
to where I was just like, No, I don't have kids,
and I'm an orchestra conductor, and that's what I wanted.
That's how I saw my life. Right. One of them
was talking about how, um, she would rather do something perfectly,
and she had dedicated her life to conducting, and so
she wanted to do that perfectly. And she said that
if she had a child the guilt that she would

(16:57):
feel about not being able to do either one right,
raise a child or be a conductor would be too
much for her. And so there are a lot of
these female conductors out there who joke about, I need
a wife because there are so many um women out
there who are married to male conductors and they dedicate
their lives completely to their husband's career, supporting him, you know,

(17:18):
being there to take care of the kids, take them
to school and all that. But if you are the
mom and traditionally you're expected to do all that stuff,
like it just it seems overwhelming and impossible. It's like
the clash of the traditional female private sphere versus the
more male public sphere, which comes up when you look
at the evolution of orchestras and women's place in orchestras

(17:43):
and conducting, going back to when orchestras first began taking
shape at the end of the seventeenth century, right and
they started out as just small ensembles. And what is
considered to be one of the biggest musical developments in
the world is the expansion of orchestras from that small
European ensemble in the seventeenth century to the present day

(18:06):
configuration of about a hundred players, which emerged in the
nineteenth century at the same time that the powerful conductor
emerged and his his role became so publicized and so
gradually as the popularity of orchestras and larger orchestras picked up,
the role of conductor gained popularity and prominence um But

(18:30):
before that, in the Baroque period, for instance, musical leadership
would sometimes come from the harpsichordist or organists, and other
times a musical director would stand somewhere random and just
conduct off the side. I kind of like that image, Yeah,
just like he's just in a closet somewhere, like they
can sense it right exactly. But then around eighteen hundred,

(18:51):
the keyboard takes a backseat to stringed instruments, and composers
started combining different instruments sounds, so the first violinist would
lead the performance from his chair, or a music director
would lead the part of performance with gestures using a
rolled up piece of paper or a stick, which led
to today's batons. If I were a side note, if

(19:13):
I were to conduct in orchestra, I would like to
use pretzel sticks. That way I could snack, but I
could have also replenished and conduct I was honestly so
excited to hear what you were going to say. I
was thinking carrot, because the whole reason they use a
white stick is so that the orchestra can see it. Well,
I don't want to eat a carrot though. That's not
as delightful as maybe a chocolate, but but imagine it.

(19:35):
It's so much more comedic. It's like a bugs bunny thing.
Like conducting with this big orange carrot with the green
leaves hanging down. Classical music fans right now or our
musicians are cringing at the thought. I'm sure of a
conductor with a carrot, right. So then we move on
to the early eighteen hundreds, and that is when we
see the conductor composers begin to stand up on a

(19:56):
podium front and center as orchestras grew, because, like we said,
as those orchestras expanded to what we know today to
be about a hundred people, they kind of needed to
be up higher where they could be seen. Um. And
to give a little bit of history as far as
the development of orchestras themselves, eighteen forty two, we have
America's first and oldest existing professional orchestra, the Philharmonic Society

(20:17):
of New York, which later became the New York Philharmonic.
And by we had four quote unquote established orchestras in America,
which were Boston, Chicago, Cincinnati, Random I'm sorry, not your
friend anyone in Cincinnati, but like Okay, and then Pittsburgh.
There were others, of course, but they just weren't as
established and stable. Now. Women were not discouraged from playing

(20:38):
music at that time. No, Certainly, playing instruments was something
that would be part of a refined woman's education, but
only for the purpose of making her more into a
marriageable lady. Kind of rounds out your home bound status,
because not only can you cook and you can clean,
and you can do your arles and corset lace up

(21:02):
your courset really tightly, but you can also play a harpsichord.
So many marketable skills. What can't she do? Nothing can
hold her back now, she throws her bonnet into the air. Allah,
Mary Tyler Moore. Nothing can hold her back now except
for the lack of transportation out of her own home.

(21:22):
That's right, because her early group participation was limited to
family ensembles. You were expected to be a classy lady
who sat on your fainting couch and played the harpsichord
as your father and mother did other instruments. Although I
will say that my dad plays the piano and my
siblings were very musical. I just sang very much off key,

(21:44):
and there would be times growing up when we would
gather around yield piano and it was a delight. George's
version of the Von trap that's right, the Von Congress. Well, so, uh,
you you might be wondering why, if you're a new
listener to our podcast, you might be wondering why these
women were not allowed to participate in the larger orchestra environment.

(22:08):
Um and Scientific American really sums it up. They describe
how women's physical incapacity to endure the strain of rehearsal
and performances prevented them from matching or surpassing male performers,
because remember those hysterical floating uteruses and tiny waists made
it hard for women to I don't know exist. Well,

(22:32):
I mean, if we are talking about the corset era,
where your outfit might be weighing up to twenty five pounds,
probably sitting and playing a music for a really long time.
Was not very easy to do, but there was a solution.
Ladies orchestras were formed. In eighteen eighty four, what is
believed to be the first all female orchestra is established

(22:54):
in Chelsea, Massachusetts, YEP. And that's followed by more in
Los Angeles and Philadelphia, Chicago and others. And then moving
forward through time as we hit the twentieth century, the
conductor position becomes even more prominent and influential, and he
has hailed for his public showmanship. He essentially becomes a

(23:15):
figurehead of overall musical culture. And it is cemented that
it is a masculine strong position, not a woman's job.
But that's not to say though, that there weren't women
conductor pioneers. Even though there they might not have been
leading to Philharmonic, they were still leading orchestras. Uh an

(23:37):
Tonia Bricko is one that we need to mention. She
let her own orchestras in New York in the nineteen
thirties and devoted her life to fighting prejudice against women
in the orchestral world. Yeah, her Women's Symphony Orchestra flourished
from nineteen thirty five to thirty nine when it became
known as the Brico Symphony Orchestra, and in nineteen thirties
she became the first woman to conduct the Berlin phil Harmonic.

(24:00):
Seven years later she was the first woman to conduct
an opera performance by a major New York company, and
in night she became the first woman to conducted the
New York Philharmonic. That so I was wrong about them
not conducting the New York Philharmony. Well, but not totally
wrong because typically back in these days it was like
a one time guest performance. So it was like, um,

(24:25):
almost like a side show. Yeah, I mean a little
more classy than us, but basically it was like, look
at this woman doing this thing, isn't that fancy? Well?
I also liked that Bricko once said, I do not
call myself a woman conductor. I call myself a conductor
who happens to be a woman. Yeah, And I mean

(24:46):
that speaks to just the dedication that that position takes,
and the dedication and hootspah it takes to enter that
male sphere. And then we have Nadia Boullinger, who is
a composer conductor who did consider her self more a composer.
But it should be noted that in nineteen thirty seven
she was the first woman to conduct an entire program

(25:08):
of the Royal Philharmonic in London. She just didn't make
a one stop, you know, conduct one piece and then leave.
And the following year, in nineteen thirty eight, she appeared
as the first woman conductor of the Boston, New York
Philharmonic and Philadelphia Orchestras. And Sarah Caldwell made a lot
of in roads, not just in classical music, but also
in opera. She ran an opera company at Boston University

(25:30):
in nineteen fifty two, and later that decade started her
own company, and she was both the director and the
conductor in nineteen seventy four, she became the second woman
to conduct the New York Philharmonic. And I mean even then,
though the first time was in with Bullinger in nineteen
thirty eight, that's quite a gap of years there. Um

(25:54):
in in nineteen seventy six, so she also became the
first woman to conduct at the Metropolitan Museum of Art.
Well I thought it was interesting that in nineteen seventy four,
when she conducted the New York Philharmonic, the program was
partially sponsored by Miss magazine, and she offered only works
by women. Hey, women helping out women, tooting a horn

(26:14):
probably literally or many of French, so many horns, even
a tuba. And finally, on our list are very short
list of amazing conductor lady conductor trailblazers. We have Judas Emoji,
who became the first woman to conduct an opera in
the US, and in nineteen seventy four she became the
New York City Opera's first female conductor. Seventy four, that

(26:36):
was quite a year for women in classical I'm telling
you the seventies like and that's leading up to that
push we talked about earlier in the eighties when we
see Marin alsap So the work of these early pioneers
has a direct influence on more women getting those appointments. Yeah,
if it were not for these women, we might not
even be talking about what a terrible sexist v athelete

(26:58):
Patrinko is. Exactly. It all ties together, And I know
we've only cited a few names, and we've said Marin
Alstop's name so many times, but we should say that
there are a lot of women today who are conducting
um smaller medium and even more elite orchestras. Not just

(27:19):
in the United States. Actually the picture is better when
you go over to Europe. A lot of women will
get international appointments first and then come back to the
United States with that cred and be able to get
more appointments that way. Um, so it's getting better. I
think that even though Petrenko's comments are cringe worthy, it's

(27:43):
certainly sparked a conversation. Yeah, and and that is the
important thing. As we said before on the podcast, Without
people uh talking about it, you know, nothing's going to change.
Just as within conducting, if you don't talk about motherhood
and the issues around family and all that stuff, that's
not going to change. On the larger scale, if if
if we didn't have a lady like Maren all Thought

(28:06):
conducting the last night of the proms, then maybe we
would never have had this podcast episode. Well, and before
the listeners suggested this topic, I hadn't even thought about this.
I'm not a classical buff. I listened to classical music,
but it's not a world that I'm immersed in. But
like with a lot of other topics that we talked

(28:26):
about on the podcast, there's so much to these issues
that that relate to um broader women's issues. So I
hope this has been enjoyable. And we did not even
talk about composers. I know that I think you did
some preliminary research on that, Caroline, and it's a little

(28:47):
bit better for women in classical composition. But I really
want to hear from women who are in orchestras. If
there are any conductors listening women or men who are
in a classical let us know your thoughts. Mom Stuff
at Discovery dot com is where you can send them,
or you can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, or
find us on Facebook and leave us a message there.

(29:10):
And we've got a couple of messages to share with
you right when we come back from a quick break.
And now back to our letters. Well, I've got an
email here from Dennis and the subject line is gay
Latino Males Perspective on Feminism, Womanism and Solidarity. And this

(29:30):
is in response to our podcast on Latina feminism and
its solidarity for white women, and he writes, I'm a
homosexual male feminist and I also am a Latino person.
I grew up in a very Americanized household, but there
were still vestiges of our deeper Mexican culture. So I
feel I have a perspective of how the American patriarchy
and Latino machies no attitude influenced the women in my

(29:53):
family and those of us in my family who are
LGBT people. This unique perspective has molded me into a
bit of a civil rights divis and I'm beginning to
work actively in my community to support the gender, sexual,
and romantic minorities in my largely Litino community. I hope
to help in the fight to break down some more
patriarchal views here in my town and make it a
more welcoming area for underrepresented minorities. I can see how

(30:17):
feminism from the past and even to the nineties was
very much centered on white middle plus women and kind
of left women of color, trans people and mail allie
to the wayside. I do think now that third way
feminism has become very intersectional and feminism will have more
inclusiveness for people of all races and genders in the
near future, thanks in part to increase exposure women of
color feminists and queer feminists on the Internet and through

(30:40):
the recognition of privilege by white feminists and using the
platforms that they have to open up discussion for people
of color, much like you two have done so wonderfully.
So thanks Dennis. All right, I have one here from Caitlin.
She says, I just caught up on all of the
lean In dedicated podcasts and a few other episodes of
Yours is We again, and it was all especially helpful.

(31:02):
I'm being let go from my job of five years
because changes are being made on a higher level that
deem my position unnecessary. I thought I'd be here forever,
negotiating check. I need to ensure that I not only
get employed, but also that I make what I deserve.
Feeling impostor syndrome, yep, what have I been doing for
the last five years? How can I even pretend to

(31:22):
be worth something when my work is now unnecessary? Dealing
with anger A big fat yes, though I'm trying to
control it in positive ways, being BOSSI or assertive. I
need to be the latter, though I was also called
the former in my youth. I feel even more ready
to take on the job market and advocate for myself
on my next adventure. And then she says, if anyone's
also going through being let oh, I got some great

(31:44):
advice recently that I wanted to share. One It's a business,
not a family. They're not obligated to keep you, even
though they care about you too. You are not your
job title. You perform that function and you are good
at it, but it is not who you are. That's
made up of so much more, and it is how
you determine your next steps. So thank you for the
awesome advice and perspective, Pitlin, and good luck on your

(32:07):
job search. Yeah, I really liked how she's offering. Ad
had a different perspective on leaning in other than you
know how you do it while you are in your job,
because I'm sure a lot of women can and men
listening can relate to that situation. Unfortunately, or sessions are
the worst. So if you have any thoughts to send
our way, though, moms have a discovery dot com is

(32:29):
where you can do it. You can also tweet us
at mom Stuff Podcast, find us on Facebook as well,
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You for some photo fun and also what's fun is
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(32:51):
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