August 25, 2021 • 44 mins
Sugar, we're going down swinging...at MISOGYNY! SMNTY shines a light on the sexism and abuse rife within early 2000s emo and pop-punk and how it's changing. Three cheers for sweet justice!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told your production of IHI Radio. Before we
get too deep into this episode, just a quick trigger
warning that we are going to be talking about some
instances of sexual assaults, abuse and things that are related
(00:27):
to that. So if that is a trigger for you,
also some violence in these songs. If that is a
trigger for you, then here's your warning. Just so you know. Samantha,
were you ever into emo or pop punk music? Oh? Yeah,
oh yeah, I definitely was that girl who felt all
those emo motions. Of course, like you couldn't tell by
(00:49):
what I would wear. I wasn't that into it, but yeah,
I definitely had some dashboard confessional and all of these
such in my repertoire. What about you, Oh oh yes,
I was so into it. I did wear the clothes,
I did the eye makeup, I had the studied felt.
I painted my nails like black and red. For a while,
(01:11):
all I wore was pretty much black with like accents
of red in it. And this was when I was
in high school. This is when I was super into it,
and I I remember introducing my very very confused high
school teacher to the term emo and she was like,
I guess I'll add that to my dictionary. And I
(01:33):
got some autographs. I interviewed Gerard Way of my Chemical Romance,
but that was I was dressed as when Your Soldier.
That was much later. Um, I joined an emo band
of my own, and I still feel very nostalgic for
a lot of these songs. I've seen them at karaoke.
I listened to them when I'm sad I need to
built something out. I still have the band shirts. But yeah,
(01:54):
since I've gotten older and more and more allegations have
come out, largely about male members of these bands of
abuse and grimming sexual assault, it has kind of made
it harder to listen to some of this music, especially
if the lyrics are kind of stockery or abusive. And
it's especially complicated because I did form a lot of
close bonds with women over this music and over these concerts,
(02:18):
and I mean we still talk about like all of
the music vessels we went to and now we've made
it all these different Green Day concerts, which they're slightly different,
I will say them what we're talking about here, but
they had an emo phase. And yeah, now knowing that
there is a lot of abuse within this world and
that has made some of it uncomfortable. And I did
(02:39):
listen to a lot of songs from my youth for
this and it it brought back the memory as it should. Uh.
My partner and I sat one day and listen to
a lot of the nineties, uh in early two thousand
songs that we used to love, including like Coheed and
Cambria and all of that. And for some reason, a
lot lot of that led into like Christian alternatives and
(03:04):
so I have because I grew up as a high
schooler who was all about Jesus that I had all
of that music because I was super cool. So I'm
going to leave it at that. But like that was
the same thing. And a lot of the things that
(03:25):
we're talking about about the misogyny was in these little
Christian punk bands that made me go, what you would
think that wouldn't be the case. Let's be honest, Like,
there's a lot of hypocrisy, and we know this, and
if you've been a part of that culture, you understood that.
But it still was so disappointing when you read half
of the things that you're like, yeah, and it's it's
(03:47):
strange when you because this was a very formative time
for me, like that I identified with the music so closely,
and then you listen to it as an adult and
you're like, wow, this is really violent and hateful towards
the women, right wow, And I guess I didn't there
was something at the time heavy quotes romantic about feeling
that level of emotion. It is and you won't really
(04:13):
just want to be a big part of it, you know,
one of the big things, and we're gonna get into
it more. But I just remembered a moment where one
of the big bands, which was called Reliant K that's
come over into the popular contemporary stuff and mainstream stuff.
And then the woman who was a DJ in Atlanta
who was engaged to the lead singer and she was
(04:35):
so excited, was doing a whole segment about wedding planning
and talking about how it was so romantic. It turned
out he cheated on her with a fan, and it
was it just got splashed everywhere, and I was like, oh, dude,
huge mistake and dating a radio like celebrity who just
called your out and all of your fans are probably
(05:00):
beyond disappointed because not only did you take advantage of
this fan, I think, but you broke this woman's heart
who talked about how holy your relationship was row But
that's a whole different story. But it does stuff like
that that as you're like, yeah, these good guys were
emotional all right and took advantage of everybody else's emotional stuff.
(05:23):
Let's go backwards a little bit. Talk about definition, because
we love a definition. What is emo? Slash pop punk?
From a twenty fourteen paper by Sam du bois called
Cheer Up Emo Kid, Rethinking the Crisis of Masculinity and Emo,
he writes, Emo and abbreviation for emotional is a term
both used to describe music which places public emphasis on
(05:45):
introspective displays of emotion, and a pejoritive phrase applied to
fans for a diverse range of music. It's overwhelmingly male
dominated in terms of production, and it has been suggested
that the development of EMO can be flamed with a
reference to a quote crisis of masculinity. The term first
originated in the nineteen eighties to describe hardcore emotional punk,
(06:09):
though we're largely talking about the third wave of EMO
in the early two thousand's. Yeah, so well, the bands
we're talking about specifically right now, that's what we're talking about.
And the article goes to examine fears around identity queering
and the asiminization of mostly young men. And remember the
whole guideliner panic. And we're still talking about it because
I still hear people talking about it to this day. Yes,
(06:32):
and actually people have speculated about the masculine stances and performances.
So there's like the foul guitar and the wide legs
stance of so called cock rock a alongside the tight
jeans and unisex hoities and guideliner of so gender bending
oh somewhat. And what that means the debate is ongoing.
(06:52):
I mean, this stuff is being talked about right now. Yeah.
I just remember distinctly having an argument with my brother
if I liked somebody, I think Jared Leto And this
was before he became a band, Like he was always
part of the band. He wasn't big in the music
yet this was his, uh my so called life, and
he was kind of that emo kid. He was that emo,
(07:14):
disenfranchised outsider that I was like, yes, but he definitely
like had the eyeliner, has some female polished And my
brother was like, what's wrong with you. He dresses like
a girl, like he's in touch with his female side.
You don't know him because I also got to fight
with somebody about Jared Letto that was kind of similar,
(07:34):
and I ended up getting his autograph from thirty seconds
Tomorrow's Days. But let me tell you, I've never frozen
so hard with the celebrity before where I was like,
oh my god, what am I doing here? I want
this moment to end right now. This is so weird.
I've not gone there, but as we find those moments
interesting by the way. Pop punk is defined by the
(07:55):
Cultural Wiki like This. Pop punk, also known as punk pop,
is a music genre that fuses elements of punk rock
and pop music. It typically combines fast tempos, loud and
distorted electric guitars, and power chord changes with pop influenced melodies,
vocal styles, and lytrical themes, which I believe us at
(08:16):
you a sample of a we talked about previously. You
did because one of the reasons we wanted to talk
about this was because we kind of touched on it
in our episode on Jennifer's Body, and there's that kind
of the whole theme of the the Emo Band, and
then sacrificing her for emo fame. And we learned that
(08:37):
Samantha had some songs with lyrics that she lended to
them or that we're about her, and she said one
to me and I listen to it. It absolutely is
punk rock pop punk. I don't think he would like
(08:57):
that's how we're defining it, because he wants to be
kind of outside of that. It is now what we
would probably regard as indie indie rock, But I learned
many genres within those, like shoe gazers and all of
that stuff that I was like, what is happening? Why
there's so many titles and or related types of things,
(09:19):
What is happening? So, yeah, you're welcome, Amy. No one
else will be able to hear those, but you're welcome. Yes,
if that guy is randomly listening, I was the person
who listened to it randomly. You got a notification. And
I do want to say also kind of going along
with that. EMO while describing a type of music, is
(09:41):
also used frequently to describe kind of the fans, so
it can get murky when you're talking about it like that,
and a lot of people described it in a way
that I felt targeted by but was absolutely true, which
is kind of like mall hot topic set, the mall
hot topics set, and that is what I was. I
had a hot topic punch card. Oh. I got up
(10:05):
in the generation that that was the devil oh, and
I could not go in there really. I mean, my
parents wouldn't go in there, like you go way up there.
I would not let me go wow. And then by
the time I was old enough to do so, I
was like, no, I'm good. I'll go in occasionally now.
(10:26):
And it's just such a throwback and it's such a
like I remember being in here and wanting because I
couldn't afford a lot of stuff in there. It's expensive.
But the green day jacket that I wear to this
stage is from Hot Topic. The zip up forty bucks.
I saved up for that one and I still wear it.
She still wears it, y'all, and it's intact like it
is still a good condition. I like it because as
(10:48):
pockets and you can zip it and on zip it's nice.
But that's that reminds me of another funny story where
I think in high school I dressed as essentially a
really emo kid, and this we didn't get many trick
or treaters in my neighborhood. But doorbell rang and I
(11:08):
answered it, and it was a young mother and her
like maybe two year old daughter who was dressed as
Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, and they both looked
terrified of me, like I could see immediately. The mother
was like, this is a mistake. We're gonna leave. And
then I'm like candy and they're like no. So there
(11:31):
was kind of that that vibe too, especially in conservative
areas of it being like, I don't know, risky, risque
or dangerous or devil related. All these kids wearing all black,
they're studded belts, studded belts, and the funny thing was
you had to take off the studded belt to get
into the concert, and then at the end there'd be
(11:52):
just like this huge thing of studded belts, so you'd
like put your initials on your belt so you could
find it. But we all were it for the way
to get line, to get in because it was a
piece of our identity, which is part of the pain
of why why um we as a lot of us
as young fans, were taking advantage of And I did
(12:13):
want to mention before we go on here. This was
a listener suggestion, so Beck wrote in A topic I
think would be interesting to cover would be about the
emo scene music scene from the year's two thousand three
to two thousand twelvesh This article briefly covers what it
was like growing up as a girl teen and being
exupposed to the culture that was essentially ruled by misogynistic men.
(12:34):
A simple lyrics breakdown of popular emo seen songs from
this era is enough to say that women were treated
like objects to appease men, especially if they didn't reciprocate
their feelings for them. Topics of abuse, murder, and the
copious amount of gas lighting was a common theme. And
most of the songs from this era and yeah, we're
we're about to get into some lyrics here in a second,
(12:55):
but yeah, a lot of these songs focus on boys,
um are men's bodies, particularly white straight systsmen on their
fears of rejection or on the actual rejection, on their
hurt or anger at women, on sexualizing women's bodies, or
blaming their in happiness and or pain on women. People
who have traced the history of punk, pop, punk and
(13:16):
emo over the years often point out that email and
pop punk weren't always this way. The songs used to
give women's names, and it would give these women autonomy
and death people who weren't super idealized and on a pedestal,
which is also part of what we're talking about here
in these third wave EMO songs. But then something shifted
in the two thousands and EMAO albums largely became about
(13:36):
men's heartbreak and the nameless women at the cause of it.
As the enemy. Women existed in these songs as simply
an object that messed with men's hearts and lives, as
either the perfect woman or mused and that's sort of
like the best uh end of the spectrum, or the
vessel for their spirm or like hatred part of the
(13:58):
men's story. That's what they served these women in these songs,
a possession to be one or lost, blaming women and
only women for their emotional state, which feels very telling
of the songwriter's views on women. There's a lot of
gas lighting and slut shaming in them. Um Email and
pop punk became another boys club because, as you noticed,
we're talking about men writing these songs, and that's because
that was largely the case, and this boys club was
(14:21):
one that looked down on the girls and women fans
who made up their fan base. As Warped Tour, six
percent of bands featured a single woman in their numbers
over the band line up. And that's doing anything while
the crowd was a majority female at fifty m Yes
a lot. In general, it does. I did go to
(14:45):
Warped Tour one time and it was so hot. That's
what I remember was that it was hot and I
got a really cool shirt. But that's it. I will
say I didn't go. I don't go to the couse
hearts much and I still don't. It's too crowded for me.
Like I knew then that I couldn't handle it and
I still know today. And also chilling out a lot
of money for a concert never made sense to me.
(15:07):
I'm too practical and too cynical, and like, I don't
want to be in a crowd where I can't see
somebody and barely hear the music and I'm getting touched
all the time. I don't. I don't want to. But
a few times that it did go was because it
was free or it was convenient, And again it included
like switch Foot Reliant K I went to see them,
I think a couple of times. I also went to
(15:28):
see a Weezer oh yeah, but because they were performing
in Atlanta for free and we were like just there.
I was like, Oh, what's happening? Did you go downtown?
I think so. I think it was during the it
was centennial when they were having the free shows essentially,
and I was at a restaurant and hanging out like.
(15:49):
It was awesome because we were at a restaurant doing something.
I think we thought something was happening. We didn't exactly where,
and then we showed up and we ended up going
to a restaurant eating and then the show happened and
we were right to the side of them. Then we
could see them perfectly. I was like, oh cool, yes, yeah, yeah.
I went to all of those two. I think also
all three shows. What if we crossed paths? We did.
(16:12):
We did these emo shows and I can't remember the
band I was at. It was a switch Foot concert,
but they were multiple bands there, and I only remember Switchfoot,
but they were all Christian bands, and one of them
was like shouting into the microphone news like it's so
cool not to have sex and I'm to serve yourself
for marriage, and we're all like, because he was like
(16:32):
shouting at a five Iron Frenzy because that was my
go to band of my high school. Five on Frenzy
was the ship to me? What was it talk? Was
it DC talk? I wonder if I could find this
old line up because it was at North Grgia College
where my dad taught that. I didn't go to that one. Well, yeah,
(16:53):
but I wonder if it had a similar right, A
switch Foot, Reliant, k so Portones, y'all, we're going down
a path. All of them had like the similar venues
and would go together. Yes, yes, I'll have to look.
I've actually really enjoyed. Yeah, I remember Jars with Clay. Yeah,
(17:15):
I've enjoyed going back down this memory. And even though
we're talking about like non great stuff right right, we
wanted to go over some sample song lyrics and these
(17:37):
are limited. I had to put a time stamp on
how much time can I spend listening to old songs
and picking out lyrics that are sexist? But yeah, we
wanted to choose some to illustrate what we're talking about here.
This is one of the miss understood songs as well
like miss spoken songs as in get the lyrics completely wrong,
and I'm one of those people. So it's the fallout
(18:00):
a song which goes, I'm just a notch in a
bed post, but we're just a line in a song,
which of course is from the two thousand fives were
Sugar We're going down. Still probably could not sing that
all the way through, and it would make up my
own stuff, as most people did in that line. And
of course there's also I only want sympathy in the
form of you crawling into bed with me. Also two
(18:22):
thousand five Dance Dance their other hit, and I still
probably would not know that lyric either, but y' yeah, yeah,
And I mean it's it's funny slash sad when you're like,
not recently obviously, but when you're in the height of
karaoke and you're like, I know that boy or whatever
song it is, and you're singing it, and as you're
(18:43):
singing it, you're like, oh, I feel weird about this now, Okay.
It's kind of that same way with a semi charme
kind of life, and you don't know what you're singing
and then you start realizing, oh, oh they and it
sounds so beat, so beat, so sad. The lyrics are
(19:05):
not not a beat. Everyone, Oh, speaking of not a
beat lyrics. So here's a line for Brand News two
thousand three songs Me Versus May Donna versus Elvis. This
line is like infamous. I got desperate desires and unamiable plans.
My tunnel taste of gin and malicious intent bring you
back to the bar, get you out of the cold.
My sober straight face gets you out of your clothes.
(19:27):
I almost feel sorry for what I'm gonna do if
you let me, If you let me have my way,
I swear I'll tear you apart. And yes, that is
about date rate, just straight up us about dates. And
then the sentences fell two four LP says, so love
me gently with a chainsaw and take the glass against
your wrist. You're worth more dead, Okay, I feel loved, Yes,
(19:51):
so so much love from this emotional music Glass Jaws
two thousand Pretty Lush has this line, you can lead
a horde of water and you can bet she'll drink
and follow orders. So the band tatars and the song
the last song I will ever write about women, But
that didn't happen, which is love is wrong and girls
are evil. I guess I'll never figure out what woman
(20:12):
kind is all about. Well mean, at least there, I mean,
good riddance, goodbye, and then from the US through. I
also saw in Concerto two is Buried Alive, my foot
on your neck and I finally have you right where
I want you. Yeah, and this one was a big
one and was still talked about today, and we're definitely
(20:34):
gonna talk about her own comments. They were one of
the few female led punk slash emo band as well
as she was a very big Christian girl. Oh yeah,
I didn't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, so she was. Originally
this was not I don't think this was a Christian band,
but she used to be like all about that Christian
life and then they got big. In two thousand eighteen,
(20:54):
Hayley Williams of Paramore announced they wouldn't be playing Misery Business, which, yeah,
I used to love this song and but this lyric
ruined everything, which features the line once the whore, you're
nothing more and it's pretty much a woman against woman
stealing men from each other, which again live for a
long time, still exists and you still hear it in
(21:15):
many songs, including uh yeah, main girl types of movies,
I've seen it featured and they have yet to play
it again at a show since. And when they announced
this at a show, the audience shared and applauded. Of course,
they also got a lot of pushback, being like, you're
do being too politically correct. Calm down. But Williams has
been outspoken about the sexism in the email world in
(21:36):
several interviews. Here's a quote she says, when I've been
offered female opportunities, it feels like a backhanded compliment. But
people sometimes think that that's anti feminists that don't want
to be grouped in with the girls. As a sixteen
year old who had dreams of playing with the big boys,
it felt like we were being slighted. That summer we
went out and I'll never forget it. We played in
(21:57):
Florida and the stage was a truck that had flatbed
on it. It was so flimsy, it was shake and
fall apart. There might have been one other female in
a band on tour, and people were gawking. I don't
think in a pervy way. They were just confused, like
what's in this for me? What she's singing about a guy?
How do I relate? And she also shared the story
of getting condoms thrown at her while performing and being
(22:19):
asked about her pussy by a man from another band
at sixteen years old. And when you look at a
lot again, this kind of comes back into that same
conversation of like, yeah, this seems cool and all, but
a lot of these men were super gross and they
did go after young girls like Hayley Williams, and it
was really gross because the relationship of the relationship, like
(22:40):
how did that happen? Avril Levine was another example of like,
and I don't think she either one of them would
say they were victims necessarily and that they would probably
not look at their relationships. It's a bad thing. But
it was oftentimes with like way older men and you're
kind of like, this is uncomfortable, Like there's something off
about this, and I think we're talking to a lot
(23:01):
and yeah, again, a majority of the time the girls
were young in email bands while the mineral old and
you're like, yes, how did this come about? Yes, And
that is a power dynamic that has been abused a
lot because this community wasn't is rife with abuse of women,
and several articles have written about how the lyrics and
(23:23):
a lot of these EMAI songs were essentially grooming young women.
For instance, Jesse Lacey of the band Brand New, which
we just saying, I didn't sing, I quoted the song
about date rape UM. Also, they had one of my
very favorite songs and I was telling at I'm like,
I guess that's over for me. And this band is
often credited with kicking off third wave email. They wrote
(23:44):
another song about how Lacy wished his girlfriend would die
after she decided to spend a semester abroad. And at
the same time he's writing and performing these songs, he
was pressuring underage girls to send him nudes while he
was masturbating on camera in front of frightened teenage girls,
and it took ten years before they felt safe enough
(24:07):
to come out and talk about it. Here's another example.
Mid two thousand's Australian emo band The Gateway Plans tour
manager John Zimmerman groomed and raped over fifty five young girls,
and most of them were fans of the band, and
he gave a lot of false promises of introducing them
to band members UM and he was eventually found guilty
(24:27):
of ninety two charges ranging from rape, possession of child
porn and sexual penetration of a child under the age
of sixteen, among other things. He got sixteen years in prison.
Another Australian pop punk group called With Confidence had to
withdraw from all touring in twenty twenty after allegations at
the guitarist was sexting with a fan who was a minor,
(24:51):
which came about and they're like, okay, never mind, and
the band fired him and put out a statement supporting
the victim. However, less than a week later, another woman
released screenshots of explicit snapchat's message she would save from
the lead singer when she was underaged, and they released
another statement and yeah, they stopped touring. Yeah. In late
(25:14):
a member of Front Porch Step faced multiple sexual harassment
accusations from underage girls, including sex and solicitations for pornographic photos.
Several of these girls put together a petition asking the
founder of Vans Warp Tour to protect young female fans
by removing Front Porch Steps from their lineup. After looking
into the allegations, the founder agreed. However, a couple of
(25:35):
months later they were scheduled on the Warp Tour lineup
in Nashville, and people were rightfully furious Hayley Williams of
Paramore treated, I still believe in you've seen demand better,
because you deserve better. No more excuses for boys just
being boys. He did end up performing with some girls
in the front row crying so hard he had to
stop and address it in mid song. He and the founder,
(25:59):
when interviewed about this, aimed he was playing as a
quote rehabilitation process um. He had six security guards protecting him.
Of course the girls had no protection, no security guards
protecting them, and there really a story after story. It's
it's heartbreaking, often with the male artists getting off relatively
scott free or even suing the accuser for defamation and
(26:22):
allowed to continue to perform. And these are only cases
that have been officially reported. Message boards are rife with
stories of people in these bands or in their orbit
praying on young girls, many of them fans, a lot
of them under age, blackmailing them and making them feel ashamed,
to silence them, so maybe getting photos and then telling
them like I'll tell your parents what you did, or
I'll show these photos unless you be quiet and are
(26:46):
continue this sexual relationship. And it's not only girls and
women absorbing these messages, but boys and men too. If
they're observing this success and how girls and women seem
to enjoy the music and their lyrics the fangirl over
the band members, then it makes sense that they might
believe that these lyrics are romantic, that the behavior described
in the songs will get them the girl. It might
(27:09):
reinforce their feelings of being victimized by women who rejected them,
justified in their sense of anger, their intense anger, and
it kind of reminds me, honestly a lot of what
we talked about in our mass shootings episode. Because these
songs are full of self pity and the bands are
loved for it. The source of pain is usually a woman,
and women at large are the source of contempt, superficial
(27:33):
and unintelligent. Often not only that being a band member
makes that even more okay, because these songs teach that
putting women through pain for art is entirely acceptable, which
again we talked about in Jennifer's Body that if you're
a nice guy, the whole trope of the nice guy
and women just don't understand you, and that they owe
(27:55):
you because you are a nice guy. Articles have pointed
out what these men seem to want is in fact
girls and not women. Girls who will agree with them
on everything, who will do what they want, who will
idolize them like they think they should be idolized because
you know their gods apparently, and that this is a
world created by men to seduce and impress girls while
(28:17):
also deriding them. It's a dangerous power dynamic. Yeah, And
like I kind of talked about at the top, it's
it's been for a lot of women and girls who
were and our fans of this type of music. It
has been a real sense of community oftentimes for them,
and to have that weaponized has been really painful. And
I've read a lot of articles with where it was
(28:39):
friendships formed between girls and women because they did make
up a lot of these audiences and then having this
kind of realization, oh not great, a lot of misogyny
and a lot of praying on young girls in this world, right,
And again, as you were talking about, there's been a
several instances where women come together and realize we've all
(29:02):
been victims, okay, And which has been the huge mistake
of a lot of stars in general, not realizing, hey,
if you groom several people eventually, if one tells a story.
They're going to see a pattern, so which has been
an interesting community in itself, said that it has to happen,
but encouraging that they are talking, and from Jessica Harper's
two thousand three essay on the rise of commercial Emo,
(29:25):
she writes, my deepest concerns about the lingering effects of
EMO is not so much for myself or for my friends.
We had refuge in our personal political platforms and did
created record collections, but rather for the teenage girls I
see crowding front and center at EMO shows, the ones
for whom this is their inaugural introduction to the underground,
the ones who are seeking music out, who are wanting
(29:47):
to say some claim to punk rock or underground avenue
for a way out, a way under, to say, the
seemingly unquenchable nameless need the same need I came to
punk rock with. So I watched these girl is that
EMO shows more than I ever do the band. I
watched them sing along, see what parts they freak out over.
I wonder if they're being thwarted by the fact that
(30:08):
there's no presentation of girls as participants, but rather only
as consumers, or if we reference the songs directly the consumed.
I wondered if this is where music will begin and
end for them, if they can be radicalized in spite
of this, if being denied keys to the clubhouse is
enough to spur them into action. Yes, and people have
(30:29):
said that that it seems to be the case because
things are changing. But basically what Hopper was talking about
here is young women forming ideas on who makes music
and what it says about women and internalizing that at
a young age. Many women, both in bands at the
time and fans spoke of condescension and entitlement oozing from
(30:50):
these bands, similar to the fate geek girl thing that
you know, being told like they don't understand real music,
that they were only there for sex, um that they
supported these bands and showed up for these bands, but
the bands did not want or support them, or just
for just yeah, condescending of them. And I mean, there's
(31:11):
a whole conversation we could have to about when we
sort of talked about this in Fan Girls, where this
is a time where girls are experiencing they're kind of
going through these feelings around sexuality for the first time,
and you're experimenting and that's part of the reason why
(31:31):
things like fan girls exist. It's because it feels like
it's a safer way to experience your sexuality or kind
of get a feel for what you're attracted to or
all the stuff. And it should be it should be
a safe space. But this is just showing a lot
of times it's not. It's which is really unfortunate. Yeah,
(31:52):
and this is a slap in the face. Again, we
talked about this in the Fangirls episode. How is a
slab in the face when a product you're sending out
so the music is getting the love that you hoped
it would, but then you're finding that annoying as well
as not taking it seriously, What a slap in the
face for those who have bought into what you are selling.
(32:15):
And you should be proud and you should be thankful.
You don't have to owe them anything necessarily, but to
ridicule them and or use them is such a disgrace
in general. And we've talked about this again with like
the bigger boy bands when they come out they're like, oh,
that was me being young and naive and stupid, and
I hate it. How dare you? Like? These fans are
the ones who made you and put you in where
(32:37):
you are and to dismiss Sure, you can do things
like you know, that was when I was younger. Sure, okay,
you grow everybody, everything's fine, but that doesn't mean you
have to ridicule what is that that brought you into
this place? Absolutely? Yes. Another thing that people have written
(33:10):
about and when they're kind of digging into this whole situation,
is that why why women, you know and me included,
Why did we Why were we okay or even like
these lyrics? Why did they resonate with us when they
were often so outright hateful towards women. And some people
(33:32):
think it has to do with internalized misogyny and the
whole idea of you know, like I'm not like those
other girls. I'm not like this girl that broke your
heart in this song. I would never do that to you.
I can save you, I can fix you, I can
make you feel better. Whatever you need me to be,
I can be that for you. Others think that because
this all coincided with the growth, really rapid growth of
(33:53):
internet culture and things like blogs and file sharing, that
that allowed for this culture to spread and solidified very quickly.
So it was just one of those things where suddenly
it was everywhere and we just all kind of bought
into it. Yeah, And I guess it was, you know, exciting,
and I'm trying to think of my own experience because
(34:16):
I had to. My parents would let me go to
hot topic, but they were very nervous about concerts. Once
I started going, I was like, all and I think
it was almost just like I'm out in the world
and I'm doing this adult thing and being at a concert,
and it just felt really new and exciting for me.
And there was like because I've I've said my very
embarrassing truth. I wrote a fan fiction, which was a
(34:40):
very sue fan fiction where I saved the lead singer
of Green Day's Life, Billy Joe Armstrong, by taking a
bullet for him. And I I think that's just, you know,
that's that stage where you are feeling like one of
these feelings, maybe I am the person, I could be
that special person that will be what they need. And
it's not healthy, but I think it's normal. And there's
(35:04):
a fantasy, whether it's trying to again discover your sexuality,
understand your own sexuality, understand romance. There's a whole level
of absolute understanding and this is normal. This is you
trying to have a fantasy life. Of course, there is
the unhealthy version when that obsession has becomes something that
(35:25):
stops you from living your everyday life. But fantasy life
is not a bad thing. And that's kind of the
point of having the celebrity crush, the all of those
things that is a little untouchable in that level, because
most oftentimes that's better than reality, and that's what you
want for me. What's so funny in my fantasies, it
(35:48):
always ended up with heartbreak, like I never like either
in their death or my death or some horrible breakup,
cheating like it always in it that way. Mine was
not necessarily like yeah, he saved the day. So it's
never that I was envisioned the like worst case scenario
(36:08):
and read with that. So there's that. But again I
digress to this is part of the imagination. This is
part of the process of working some things out that
you can't do it uh in reality in real life,
so might as well. And I don't think that's unhealthy
at all. We all go through that. My sister and
I still debate about who's better in Sync or Backstreet Boys.
(36:29):
I go for in Sync, any you're you're weirdly out
in the of your generation and go for Backstreet Boys.
But you know, okay, this will be this will be
what finally tears as a part one day in sync
Backstreet Boys. Right, Yeah, no, I agree, And I think
it just breaks my heart that this normal process is
(36:54):
being preyed on might reser men because you do you know,
you are caught up in idolizing this person, but you
don't really understand that, you know, they are a person,
and maybe you don't really understand what relationships look like yet,
and you just are so excited because it makes you
feel like you're the special one. If they pay you
this attention and then it's abusive and you don't know
(37:16):
what to do about it. It just makes me angry,
breaks my heart. Other women have wrote about how these
lyrics normalized behavior from boyfriends, maybe even glorifying, glorifying behavior
like oh my boyfriend is so artistic or emotional thoughts
like that, And we talked about the romanticizing of emotional
men that happens a lot. It's kind of like a
(37:36):
running joke about the difference between men's pornography and women's pornography,
and that doesn't have to be bad at all, but
if this emotion is harmful, one sided, and toxic, then yes,
that is bad. It is bad, especially when we think
about young girls absorbing these messages and internalizing them, believing
that's what relationships look like. Are even yeah, young boys too,
um that that's what romance looks like and that's their
(37:58):
role to play in it. There's also a lot of
romantization of trashy campaign I find that's common in a
lot of our media, actually, that we really romanticize this
idea of like the tragic loner hero often or anti hero,
whatever the case may be. So that can be problematic
for people to absorb as this is what romance looks like. Right. Yes, Oh,
(38:23):
and this is a fact I found interesting. Other music
experts have written that in many cases lead male singers
have this like nasally quality and these songs that are
even not so great singing skills that would have been
critiqued the hell out of anyone that wasn't sis male
and we're straight that they are benefiting from a privilege
of being whiny and emotional when women are punished for
(38:45):
being trill and hysterical. In fact, women who have made
it in the emo pop punk scene have had to
be exceptional when it comes to skill of all, and
one of the articles specifically gave examples of Haley Williams
and April Lavine was like, they have four range octave,
Like they can do all of this amazing stuff. Meanwhile,
a lot of email dudes are singing like one octave,
(39:06):
kind of just like mumble talking into the micro. Mumble core,
y'all mumblecore that exists. Uh No, it's absolutely true, because
when you start looking at the newer wave, I guess
because Panic at the Disco came a little later. He
actually has a vocal range and it can actually sing
and hit different rages. But then you hit like Deathcat
(39:26):
for Cutie. He has a kind of operatic falsetto sound,
doesn't hit many of the cores, and he's very distinctive.
But if you heard him seeing regularly, it wouldn't be impressive.
You just kind of stared and be like all right
and move on. If you hear individual other stuff like that.
Dash Works Confessional. I can't quite remember. I don't think
(39:48):
it was all off Coolhan Luke. I don't know if
you remember who they were. He was Indie and he
was a little more on the Christian scene. He was
that level too, can s. But he seems so cool
and his lyrics seems so cool. So the title his
name was good cool and you would appreciate that, but
it actually comes from the movie. I'm sorry, but all
(40:12):
of those things are very different in sound, and you're like,
like that, this doesn't make sense. Not everybody. They just
have a band and they have some vocals in the background. Great,
but that's about the end of it. Yeah, I mean,
what do you think about it? And I don't want
to if you're listening to that. I loved a lot
of this music, and I still listen to a lot
of this music and enjoy it. But if you think
(40:32):
about it, like a lot of it is pretty you know,
one kind of range and similar in topic was it?
And they would say that for a lot of pop
to they talked about They make fun of that all
the time, and typically they make fun of girls pop
singers who were like they can only sing four notes.
But then if you take them out like Miley Sorus
is a great example. If you think she's just a
(40:54):
pop singer and then you hear her sing outside of
and she can hold those ranges, and she can hold
those notes, and she and hit every note without phasing it,
and you're like, hey, she's a singer, she gets it.
I can't hit those actors. Stop trying, Samantha, stop trying.
But there are things like that that you see people
dismiss easily because they seem like a joke, but in
(41:16):
actuality they have a talent beyond right. And people have
called down Taylor supposed to say, yeah, I'm a big,
big believer in you know, pop music has been really
looked down on, especially because I think the fans are
a lot of women and girls, and the singers often
(41:36):
are to you and actually quite talented, and we always
have to ask, like if the song is resonating, then
we have to ask why something's working right. So, yes,
admittedly exaggerating our heightening of emotions, it's not unique to
emo music at all. As the name might suggest. They
might have gone, you know, above the average, but it
(41:58):
is it's normal. Some of the bands have addressed their
past misogynistic lyrics and made changes. I mean, even before
this we were talking about past poetry. A lot of
my past poetry was really emo and like violent and
stuff that was unnecessary, but I was going I was
working through stuff. My mom found mine and asked me
(42:18):
if I was okay as a teenager. So yeah, So
I mean, it's it's it is more emotional and off,
I'm more violent. But music at large does that a
lot um and a large swath of music has a
history of being misogynistic, including rock and pop that Emo
(42:39):
grew out of. Others have correctly pointed out too that
while hip hop has been called out and sometimes dismissed
for misogyny for years, Emo and it's softer toxic masculinity,
as it's called How the Long Escaped It. Yeah, but
we're talking about Emo today, so that's the that was
the target, I mean, And to be fair, one of
(43:00):
the songs that called out the most was PanAm Moore song,
which is interesting in itself. Yes, I found that to
be true as well. But there is hope the Emo
Revival has a more female artist than ever that's going
on right now. Um though, yes, we still have a
long long way to go from the band. She heard
(43:20):
her song killing the Boy Band. Here's some lyrics. So
you started a band, We'll let me guess who's in it?
All straight, all white, able bodied systsmen say, you don't
know many female musicians, why the they want to be
part of a scene with people like you in it?
So yes, yes, and oh my goodness, listeners, if you
(43:42):
have any emo bands or pop punk bands with women
in them that we should be listening to, we want
those suggestions. I am ready. Christine has got tons of
these suggestions, producer, send them our way. You can email us,
Christina are also just you know, talk to us whatever
(44:05):
way you're more comfortable with. But listeners of you would
like to email us, you can or email Stuff Media
mom Stuff at I Hurt meia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter, app, mom Stuff podcast or on
Instagram at stuff. I never told you thinks there's always
to her super producer, Christina, I thought she's really emo.
She got it and thanks to you for this thing.
Stuff on ever told these prodection I Hi Radio for
(44:26):
more podcast from my Heart Radio is her radio app
Apple Podcast wherever you listen to your favorite shows
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told your production of IHI Radio. Before we
get too deep into this episode, just a quick trigger
warning that we are going to be talking about some
instances of sexual assaults, abuse and things that are related
(00:27):
to that. So if that is a trigger for you,
also some violence in these songs. If that is a
trigger for you, then here's your warning. Just so you know. Samantha,
were you ever into emo or pop punk music? Oh? Yeah,
oh yeah, I definitely was that girl who felt all
those emo motions. Of course, like you couldn't tell by
(00:49):
what I would wear. I wasn't that into it, but yeah,
I definitely had some dashboard confessional and all of these
such in my repertoire. What about you, Oh oh yes,
I was so into it. I did wear the clothes,
I did the eye makeup, I had the studied felt.
I painted my nails like black and red. For a while,
(01:11):
all I wore was pretty much black with like accents
of red in it. And this was when I was
in high school. This is when I was super into it,
and I I remember introducing my very very confused high
school teacher to the term emo and she was like,
I guess I'll add that to my dictionary. And I
(01:33):
got some autographs. I interviewed Gerard Way of my Chemical Romance,
but that was I was dressed as when Your Soldier.
That was much later. Um, I joined an emo band
of my own, and I still feel very nostalgic for
a lot of these songs. I've seen them at karaoke.
I listened to them when I'm sad I need to
built something out. I still have the band shirts. But yeah,
(01:54):
since I've gotten older and more and more allegations have
come out, largely about male members of these bands of
abuse and grimming sexual assault, it has kind of made
it harder to listen to some of this music, especially
if the lyrics are kind of stockery or abusive. And
it's especially complicated because I did form a lot of
close bonds with women over this music and over these concerts,
(02:18):
and I mean we still talk about like all of
the music vessels we went to and now we've made
it all these different Green Day concerts, which they're slightly different,
I will say them what we're talking about here, but
they had an emo phase. And yeah, now knowing that
there is a lot of abuse within this world and
that has made some of it uncomfortable. And I did
(02:39):
listen to a lot of songs from my youth for
this and it it brought back the memory as it should. Uh.
My partner and I sat one day and listen to
a lot of the nineties, uh in early two thousand
songs that we used to love, including like Coheed and
Cambria and all of that. And for some reason, a
lot lot of that led into like Christian alternatives and
(03:04):
so I have because I grew up as a high
schooler who was all about Jesus that I had all
of that music because I was super cool. So I'm
going to leave it at that. But like that was
the same thing. And a lot of the things that
(03:25):
we're talking about about the misogyny was in these little
Christian punk bands that made me go, what you would
think that wouldn't be the case. Let's be honest, Like,
there's a lot of hypocrisy, and we know this, and
if you've been a part of that culture, you understood that.
But it still was so disappointing when you read half
of the things that you're like, yeah, and it's it's
(03:47):
strange when you because this was a very formative time
for me, like that I identified with the music so closely,
and then you listen to it as an adult and
you're like, wow, this is really violent and hateful towards
the women, right wow, And I guess I didn't there
was something at the time heavy quotes romantic about feeling
that level of emotion. It is and you won't really
(04:13):
just want to be a big part of it, you know,
one of the big things, and we're gonna get into
it more. But I just remembered a moment where one
of the big bands, which was called Reliant K that's
come over into the popular contemporary stuff and mainstream stuff.
And then the woman who was a DJ in Atlanta
who was engaged to the lead singer and she was
(04:35):
so excited, was doing a whole segment about wedding planning
and talking about how it was so romantic. It turned
out he cheated on her with a fan, and it
was it just got splashed everywhere, and I was like, oh, dude,
huge mistake and dating a radio like celebrity who just
called your out and all of your fans are probably
(05:00):
beyond disappointed because not only did you take advantage of
this fan, I think, but you broke this woman's heart
who talked about how holy your relationship was row But
that's a whole different story. But it does stuff like
that that as you're like, yeah, these good guys were
emotional all right and took advantage of everybody else's emotional stuff.
(05:23):
Let's go backwards a little bit. Talk about definition, because
we love a definition. What is emo? Slash pop punk?
From a twenty fourteen paper by Sam du bois called
Cheer Up Emo Kid, Rethinking the Crisis of Masculinity and Emo,
he writes, Emo and abbreviation for emotional is a term
both used to describe music which places public emphasis on
(05:45):
introspective displays of emotion, and a pejoritive phrase applied to
fans for a diverse range of music. It's overwhelmingly male
dominated in terms of production, and it has been suggested
that the development of EMO can be flamed with a
reference to a quote crisis of masculinity. The term first
originated in the nineteen eighties to describe hardcore emotional punk,
(06:09):
though we're largely talking about the third wave of EMO
in the early two thousand's. Yeah, so well, the bands
we're talking about specifically right now, that's what we're talking about.
And the article goes to examine fears around identity queering
and the asiminization of mostly young men. And remember the
whole guideliner panic. And we're still talking about it because
I still hear people talking about it to this day. Yes,
(06:32):
and actually people have speculated about the masculine stances and performances.
So there's like the foul guitar and the wide legs
stance of so called cock rock a alongside the tight
jeans and unisex hoities and guideliner of so gender bending
oh somewhat. And what that means the debate is ongoing.
(06:52):
I mean, this stuff is being talked about right now. Yeah.
I just remember distinctly having an argument with my brother
if I liked somebody, I think Jared Leto And this
was before he became a band, Like he was always
part of the band. He wasn't big in the music
yet this was his, uh my so called life, and
he was kind of that emo kid. He was that emo,
(07:14):
disenfranchised outsider that I was like, yes, but he definitely
like had the eyeliner, has some female polished And my
brother was like, what's wrong with you. He dresses like
a girl, like he's in touch with his female side.
You don't know him because I also got to fight
with somebody about Jared Letto that was kind of similar,
(07:34):
and I ended up getting his autograph from thirty seconds
Tomorrow's Days. But let me tell you, I've never frozen
so hard with the celebrity before where I was like,
oh my god, what am I doing here? I want
this moment to end right now. This is so weird.
I've not gone there, but as we find those moments
interesting by the way. Pop punk is defined by the
(07:55):
Cultural Wiki like This. Pop punk, also known as punk pop,
is a music genre that fuses elements of punk rock
and pop music. It typically combines fast tempos, loud and
distorted electric guitars, and power chord changes with pop influenced melodies,
vocal styles, and lytrical themes, which I believe us at
(08:16):
you a sample of a we talked about previously. You
did because one of the reasons we wanted to talk
about this was because we kind of touched on it
in our episode on Jennifer's Body, and there's that kind
of the whole theme of the the Emo Band, and
then sacrificing her for emo fame. And we learned that
(08:37):
Samantha had some songs with lyrics that she lended to
them or that we're about her, and she said one
to me and I listen to it. It absolutely is
punk rock pop punk. I don't think he would like
(08:57):
that's how we're defining it, because he wants to be
kind of outside of that. It is now what we
would probably regard as indie indie rock, But I learned
many genres within those, like shoe gazers and all of
that stuff that I was like, what is happening? Why
there's so many titles and or related types of things,
(09:19):
What is happening? So, yeah, you're welcome, Amy. No one
else will be able to hear those, but you're welcome. Yes,
if that guy is randomly listening, I was the person
who listened to it randomly. You got a notification. And
I do want to say also kind of going along
with that. EMO while describing a type of music, is
(09:41):
also used frequently to describe kind of the fans, so
it can get murky when you're talking about it like that,
and a lot of people described it in a way
that I felt targeted by but was absolutely true, which
is kind of like mall hot topic set, the mall
hot topics set, and that is what I was. I
had a hot topic punch card. Oh. I got up
(10:05):
in the generation that that was the devil oh, and
I could not go in there really. I mean, my
parents wouldn't go in there, like you go way up there.
I would not let me go wow. And then by
the time I was old enough to do so, I
was like, no, I'm good. I'll go in occasionally now.
(10:26):
And it's just such a throwback and it's such a
like I remember being in here and wanting because I
couldn't afford a lot of stuff in there. It's expensive.
But the green day jacket that I wear to this
stage is from Hot Topic. The zip up forty bucks.
I saved up for that one and I still wear it.
She still wears it, y'all, and it's intact like it
is still a good condition. I like it because as
(10:48):
pockets and you can zip it and on zip it's nice.
But that's that reminds me of another funny story where
I think in high school I dressed as essentially a
really emo kid, and this we didn't get many trick
or treaters in my neighborhood. But doorbell rang and I
(11:08):
answered it, and it was a young mother and her
like maybe two year old daughter who was dressed as
Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz, and they both looked
terrified of me, like I could see immediately. The mother
was like, this is a mistake. We're gonna leave. And
then I'm like candy and they're like no. So there
(11:31):
was kind of that that vibe too, especially in conservative
areas of it being like, I don't know, risky, risque
or dangerous or devil related. All these kids wearing all black,
they're studded belts, studded belts, and the funny thing was
you had to take off the studded belt to get
into the concert, and then at the end there'd be
(11:52):
just like this huge thing of studded belts, so you'd
like put your initials on your belt so you could
find it. But we all were it for the way
to get line, to get in because it was a
piece of our identity, which is part of the pain
of why why um we as a lot of us
as young fans, were taking advantage of And I did
(12:13):
want to mention before we go on here. This was
a listener suggestion, so Beck wrote in A topic I
think would be interesting to cover would be about the
emo scene music scene from the year's two thousand three
to two thousand twelvesh This article briefly covers what it
was like growing up as a girl teen and being
exupposed to the culture that was essentially ruled by misogynistic men.
(12:34):
A simple lyrics breakdown of popular emo seen songs from
this era is enough to say that women were treated
like objects to appease men, especially if they didn't reciprocate
their feelings for them. Topics of abuse, murder, and the
copious amount of gas lighting was a common theme. And
most of the songs from this era and yeah, we're
we're about to get into some lyrics here in a second,
(12:55):
but yeah, a lot of these songs focus on boys,
um are men's bodies, particularly white straight systsmen on their
fears of rejection or on the actual rejection, on their
hurt or anger at women, on sexualizing women's bodies, or
blaming their in happiness and or pain on women. People
who have traced the history of punk, pop, punk and
(13:16):
emo over the years often point out that email and
pop punk weren't always this way. The songs used to
give women's names, and it would give these women autonomy
and death people who weren't super idealized and on a pedestal,
which is also part of what we're talking about here
in these third wave EMO songs. But then something shifted
in the two thousands and EMAO albums largely became about
(13:36):
men's heartbreak and the nameless women at the cause of it.
As the enemy. Women existed in these songs as simply
an object that messed with men's hearts and lives, as
either the perfect woman or mused and that's sort of
like the best uh end of the spectrum, or the
vessel for their spirm or like hatred part of the
(13:58):
men's story. That's what they served these women in these songs,
a possession to be one or lost, blaming women and
only women for their emotional state, which feels very telling
of the songwriter's views on women. There's a lot of
gas lighting and slut shaming in them. Um Email and
pop punk became another boys club because, as you noticed,
we're talking about men writing these songs, and that's because
that was largely the case, and this boys club was
(14:21):
one that looked down on the girls and women fans
who made up their fan base. As Warped Tour, six
percent of bands featured a single woman in their numbers
over the band line up. And that's doing anything while
the crowd was a majority female at fifty m Yes
a lot. In general, it does. I did go to
(14:45):
Warped Tour one time and it was so hot. That's
what I remember was that it was hot and I
got a really cool shirt. But that's it. I will
say I didn't go. I don't go to the couse
hearts much and I still don't. It's too crowded for me.
Like I knew then that I couldn't handle it and
I still know today. And also chilling out a lot
of money for a concert never made sense to me.
(15:07):
I'm too practical and too cynical, and like, I don't
want to be in a crowd where I can't see
somebody and barely hear the music and I'm getting touched
all the time. I don't. I don't want to. But
a few times that it did go was because it
was free or it was convenient, And again it included
like switch Foot Reliant K I went to see them,
I think a couple of times. I also went to
(15:28):
see a Weezer oh yeah, but because they were performing
in Atlanta for free and we were like just there.
I was like, Oh, what's happening? Did you go downtown?
I think so. I think it was during the it
was centennial when they were having the free shows essentially,
and I was at a restaurant and hanging out like.
(15:49):
It was awesome because we were at a restaurant doing something.
I think we thought something was happening. We didn't exactly where,
and then we showed up and we ended up going
to a restaurant eating and then the show happened and
we were right to the side of them. Then we
could see them perfectly. I was like, oh cool, yes, yeah, yeah.
I went to all of those two. I think also
all three shows. What if we crossed paths? We did.
(16:12):
We did these emo shows and I can't remember the
band I was at. It was a switch Foot concert,
but they were multiple bands there, and I only remember Switchfoot,
but they were all Christian bands, and one of them
was like shouting into the microphone news like it's so
cool not to have sex and I'm to serve yourself
for marriage, and we're all like, because he was like
(16:32):
shouting at a five Iron Frenzy because that was my
go to band of my high school. Five on Frenzy
was the ship to me? What was it talk? Was
it DC talk? I wonder if I could find this
old line up because it was at North Grgia College
where my dad taught that. I didn't go to that one. Well, yeah,
(16:53):
but I wonder if it had a similar right, A
switch Foot, Reliant, k so Portones, y'all, we're going down
a path. All of them had like the similar venues
and would go together. Yes, yes, I'll have to look.
I've actually really enjoyed. Yeah, I remember Jars with Clay. Yeah,
(17:15):
I've enjoyed going back down this memory. And even though
we're talking about like non great stuff right right, we
wanted to go over some sample song lyrics and these
(17:37):
are limited. I had to put a time stamp on
how much time can I spend listening to old songs
and picking out lyrics that are sexist? But yeah, we
wanted to choose some to illustrate what we're talking about here.
This is one of the miss understood songs as well
like miss spoken songs as in get the lyrics completely wrong,
and I'm one of those people. So it's the fallout
(18:00):
a song which goes, I'm just a notch in a
bed post, but we're just a line in a song,
which of course is from the two thousand fives were
Sugar We're going down. Still probably could not sing that
all the way through, and it would make up my
own stuff, as most people did in that line. And
of course there's also I only want sympathy in the
form of you crawling into bed with me. Also two
(18:22):
thousand five Dance Dance their other hit, and I still
probably would not know that lyric either, but y' yeah, yeah,
And I mean it's it's funny slash sad when you're like,
not recently obviously, but when you're in the height of
karaoke and you're like, I know that boy or whatever
song it is, and you're singing it, and as you're
(18:43):
singing it, you're like, oh, I feel weird about this now, Okay.
It's kind of that same way with a semi charme
kind of life, and you don't know what you're singing
and then you start realizing, oh, oh they and it
sounds so beat, so beat, so sad. The lyrics are
(19:05):
not not a beat. Everyone, Oh, speaking of not a
beat lyrics. So here's a line for Brand News two
thousand three songs Me Versus May Donna versus Elvis. This
line is like infamous. I got desperate desires and unamiable plans.
My tunnel taste of gin and malicious intent bring you
back to the bar, get you out of the cold.
My sober straight face gets you out of your clothes.
(19:27):
I almost feel sorry for what I'm gonna do if
you let me, If you let me have my way,
I swear I'll tear you apart. And yes, that is
about date rate, just straight up us about dates. And
then the sentences fell two four LP says, so love
me gently with a chainsaw and take the glass against
your wrist. You're worth more dead, Okay, I feel loved, Yes,
(19:51):
so so much love from this emotional music Glass Jaws
two thousand Pretty Lush has this line, you can lead
a horde of water and you can bet she'll drink
and follow orders. So the band tatars and the song
the last song I will ever write about women, But
that didn't happen, which is love is wrong and girls
are evil. I guess I'll never figure out what woman
(20:12):
kind is all about. Well mean, at least there, I mean,
good riddance, goodbye, and then from the US through. I
also saw in Concerto two is Buried Alive, my foot
on your neck and I finally have you right where
I want you. Yeah, and this one was a big
one and was still talked about today, and we're definitely
(20:34):
gonna talk about her own comments. They were one of
the few female led punk slash emo band as well
as she was a very big Christian girl. Oh yeah,
I didn't know, yeah, yeah, yeah, so she was. Originally
this was not I don't think this was a Christian band,
but she used to be like all about that Christian
life and then they got big. In two thousand eighteen,
(20:54):
Hayley Williams of Paramore announced they wouldn't be playing Misery Business, which, yeah,
I used to love this song and but this lyric
ruined everything, which features the line once the whore, you're
nothing more and it's pretty much a woman against woman
stealing men from each other, which again live for a
long time, still exists and you still hear it in
(21:15):
many songs, including uh yeah, main girl types of movies,
I've seen it featured and they have yet to play
it again at a show since. And when they announced
this at a show, the audience shared and applauded. Of course,
they also got a lot of pushback, being like, you're
do being too politically correct. Calm down. But Williams has
been outspoken about the sexism in the email world in
(21:36):
several interviews. Here's a quote she says, when I've been
offered female opportunities, it feels like a backhanded compliment. But
people sometimes think that that's anti feminists that don't want
to be grouped in with the girls. As a sixteen
year old who had dreams of playing with the big boys,
it felt like we were being slighted. That summer we
went out and I'll never forget it. We played in
(21:57):
Florida and the stage was a truck that had flatbed
on it. It was so flimsy, it was shake and
fall apart. There might have been one other female in
a band on tour, and people were gawking. I don't
think in a pervy way. They were just confused, like
what's in this for me? What she's singing about a guy?
How do I relate? And she also shared the story
of getting condoms thrown at her while performing and being
(22:19):
asked about her pussy by a man from another band
at sixteen years old. And when you look at a
lot again, this kind of comes back into that same
conversation of like, yeah, this seems cool and all, but
a lot of these men were super gross and they
did go after young girls like Hayley Williams, and it
was really gross because the relationship of the relationship, like
(22:40):
how did that happen? Avril Levine was another example of like,
and I don't think she either one of them would
say they were victims necessarily and that they would probably
not look at their relationships. It's a bad thing. But
it was oftentimes with like way older men and you're
kind of like, this is uncomfortable, Like there's something off
about this, and I think we're talking to a lot
(23:01):
and yeah, again, a majority of the time the girls
were young in email bands while the mineral old and
you're like, yes, how did this come about? Yes, And
that is a power dynamic that has been abused a
lot because this community wasn't is rife with abuse of women,
and several articles have written about how the lyrics and
(23:23):
a lot of these EMAI songs were essentially grooming young women.
For instance, Jesse Lacey of the band Brand New, which
we just saying, I didn't sing, I quoted the song
about date rape UM. Also, they had one of my
very favorite songs and I was telling at I'm like,
I guess that's over for me. And this band is
often credited with kicking off third wave email. They wrote
(23:44):
another song about how Lacy wished his girlfriend would die
after she decided to spend a semester abroad. And at
the same time he's writing and performing these songs, he
was pressuring underage girls to send him nudes while he
was masturbating on camera in front of frightened teenage girls,
and it took ten years before they felt safe enough
(24:07):
to come out and talk about it. Here's another example.
Mid two thousand's Australian emo band The Gateway Plans tour
manager John Zimmerman groomed and raped over fifty five young girls,
and most of them were fans of the band, and
he gave a lot of false promises of introducing them
to band members UM and he was eventually found guilty
(24:27):
of ninety two charges ranging from rape, possession of child
porn and sexual penetration of a child under the age
of sixteen, among other things. He got sixteen years in prison.
Another Australian pop punk group called With Confidence had to
withdraw from all touring in twenty twenty after allegations at
the guitarist was sexting with a fan who was a minor,
(24:51):
which came about and they're like, okay, never mind, and
the band fired him and put out a statement supporting
the victim. However, less than a week later, another woman
released screenshots of explicit snapchat's message she would save from
the lead singer when she was underaged, and they released
another statement and yeah, they stopped touring. Yeah. In late
(25:14):
a member of Front Porch Step faced multiple sexual harassment
accusations from underage girls, including sex and solicitations for pornographic photos.
Several of these girls put together a petition asking the
founder of Vans Warp Tour to protect young female fans
by removing Front Porch Steps from their lineup. After looking
into the allegations, the founder agreed. However, a couple of
(25:35):
months later they were scheduled on the Warp Tour lineup
in Nashville, and people were rightfully furious Hayley Williams of
Paramore treated, I still believe in you've seen demand better,
because you deserve better. No more excuses for boys just
being boys. He did end up performing with some girls
in the front row crying so hard he had to
stop and address it in mid song. He and the founder,
(25:59):
when interviewed about this, aimed he was playing as a
quote rehabilitation process um. He had six security guards protecting him.
Of course the girls had no protection, no security guards
protecting them, and there really a story after story. It's
it's heartbreaking, often with the male artists getting off relatively
scott free or even suing the accuser for defamation and
(26:22):
allowed to continue to perform. And these are only cases
that have been officially reported. Message boards are rife with
stories of people in these bands or in their orbit
praying on young girls, many of them fans, a lot
of them under age, blackmailing them and making them feel ashamed,
to silence them, so maybe getting photos and then telling
them like I'll tell your parents what you did, or
I'll show these photos unless you be quiet and are
(26:46):
continue this sexual relationship. And it's not only girls and
women absorbing these messages, but boys and men too. If
they're observing this success and how girls and women seem
to enjoy the music and their lyrics the fangirl over
the band members, then it makes sense that they might
believe that these lyrics are romantic, that the behavior described
in the songs will get them the girl. It might
(27:09):
reinforce their feelings of being victimized by women who rejected them,
justified in their sense of anger, their intense anger, and
it kind of reminds me, honestly a lot of what
we talked about in our mass shootings episode. Because these
songs are full of self pity and the bands are
loved for it. The source of pain is usually a woman,
and women at large are the source of contempt, superficial
(27:33):
and unintelligent. Often not only that being a band member
makes that even more okay, because these songs teach that
putting women through pain for art is entirely acceptable, which
again we talked about in Jennifer's Body that if you're
a nice guy, the whole trope of the nice guy
and women just don't understand you, and that they owe
(27:55):
you because you are a nice guy. Articles have pointed
out what these men seem to want is in fact
girls and not women. Girls who will agree with them
on everything, who will do what they want, who will
idolize them like they think they should be idolized because
you know their gods apparently, and that this is a
world created by men to seduce and impress girls while
(28:17):
also deriding them. It's a dangerous power dynamic. Yeah, And
like I kind of talked about at the top, it's
it's been for a lot of women and girls who
were and our fans of this type of music. It
has been a real sense of community oftentimes for them,
and to have that weaponized has been really painful. And
I've read a lot of articles with where it was
(28:39):
friendships formed between girls and women because they did make
up a lot of these audiences and then having this
kind of realization, oh not great, a lot of misogyny
and a lot of praying on young girls in this world, right,
And again, as you were talking about, there's been a
several instances where women come together and realize we've all
(29:02):
been victims, okay, And which has been the huge mistake
of a lot of stars in general, not realizing, hey,
if you groom several people eventually, if one tells a story.
They're going to see a pattern, so which has been
an interesting community in itself, said that it has to happen,
but encouraging that they are talking, and from Jessica Harper's
two thousand three essay on the rise of commercial Emo,
(29:25):
she writes, my deepest concerns about the lingering effects of
EMO is not so much for myself or for my friends.
We had refuge in our personal political platforms and did
created record collections, but rather for the teenage girls I
see crowding front and center at EMO shows, the ones
for whom this is their inaugural introduction to the underground,
the ones who are seeking music out, who are wanting
(29:47):
to say some claim to punk rock or underground avenue
for a way out, a way under, to say, the
seemingly unquenchable nameless need the same need I came to
punk rock with. So I watched these girl is that
EMO shows more than I ever do the band. I
watched them sing along, see what parts they freak out over.
I wonder if they're being thwarted by the fact that
(30:08):
there's no presentation of girls as participants, but rather only
as consumers, or if we reference the songs directly the consumed.
I wondered if this is where music will begin and
end for them, if they can be radicalized in spite
of this, if being denied keys to the clubhouse is
enough to spur them into action. Yes, and people have
(30:29):
said that that it seems to be the case because
things are changing. But basically what Hopper was talking about
here is young women forming ideas on who makes music
and what it says about women and internalizing that at
a young age. Many women, both in bands at the
time and fans spoke of condescension and entitlement oozing from
(30:50):
these bands, similar to the fate geek girl thing that
you know, being told like they don't understand real music,
that they were only there for sex, um that they
supported these bands and showed up for these bands, but
the bands did not want or support them, or just
for just yeah, condescending of them. And I mean, there's
(31:11):
a whole conversation we could have to about when we
sort of talked about this in Fan Girls, where this
is a time where girls are experiencing they're kind of
going through these feelings around sexuality for the first time,
and you're experimenting and that's part of the reason why
(31:31):
things like fan girls exist. It's because it feels like
it's a safer way to experience your sexuality or kind
of get a feel for what you're attracted to or
all the stuff. And it should be it should be
a safe space. But this is just showing a lot
of times it's not. It's which is really unfortunate. Yeah,
(31:52):
and this is a slap in the face. Again, we
talked about this in the Fangirls episode. How is a
slab in the face when a product you're sending out
so the music is getting the love that you hoped
it would, but then you're finding that annoying as well
as not taking it seriously, What a slap in the
face for those who have bought into what you are selling.
(32:15):
And you should be proud and you should be thankful.
You don't have to owe them anything necessarily, but to
ridicule them and or use them is such a disgrace
in general. And we've talked about this again with like
the bigger boy bands when they come out they're like, oh,
that was me being young and naive and stupid, and
I hate it. How dare you? Like? These fans are
the ones who made you and put you in where
(32:37):
you are and to dismiss Sure, you can do things
like you know, that was when I was younger. Sure, okay,
you grow everybody, everything's fine, but that doesn't mean you
have to ridicule what is that that brought you into
this place? Absolutely? Yes. Another thing that people have written
(33:10):
about and when they're kind of digging into this whole situation,
is that why why women, you know and me included,
Why did we Why were we okay or even like
these lyrics? Why did they resonate with us when they
were often so outright hateful towards women. And some people
(33:32):
think it has to do with internalized misogyny and the
whole idea of you know, like I'm not like those
other girls. I'm not like this girl that broke your
heart in this song. I would never do that to you.
I can save you, I can fix you, I can
make you feel better. Whatever you need me to be,
I can be that for you. Others think that because
this all coincided with the growth, really rapid growth of
(33:53):
internet culture and things like blogs and file sharing, that
that allowed for this culture to spread and solidified very quickly.
So it was just one of those things where suddenly
it was everywhere and we just all kind of bought
into it. Yeah, And I guess it was, you know, exciting,
and I'm trying to think of my own experience because
(34:16):
I had to. My parents would let me go to
hot topic, but they were very nervous about concerts. Once
I started going, I was like, all and I think
it was almost just like I'm out in the world
and I'm doing this adult thing and being at a concert,
and it just felt really new and exciting for me.
And there was like because I've I've said my very
embarrassing truth. I wrote a fan fiction, which was a
(34:40):
very sue fan fiction where I saved the lead singer
of Green Day's Life, Billy Joe Armstrong, by taking a
bullet for him. And I I think that's just, you know,
that's that stage where you are feeling like one of
these feelings, maybe I am the person, I could be
that special person that will be what they need. And
it's not healthy, but I think it's normal. And there's
(35:04):
a fantasy, whether it's trying to again discover your sexuality,
understand your own sexuality, understand romance. There's a whole level
of absolute understanding and this is normal. This is you
trying to have a fantasy life. Of course, there is
the unhealthy version when that obsession has becomes something that
(35:25):
stops you from living your everyday life. But fantasy life
is not a bad thing. And that's kind of the
point of having the celebrity crush, the all of those
things that is a little untouchable in that level, because
most oftentimes that's better than reality, and that's what you
want for me. What's so funny in my fantasies, it
(35:48):
always ended up with heartbreak, like I never like either
in their death or my death or some horrible breakup,
cheating like it always in it that way. Mine was
not necessarily like yeah, he saved the day. So it's
never that I was envisioned the like worst case scenario
(36:08):
and read with that. So there's that. But again I
digress to this is part of the imagination. This is
part of the process of working some things out that
you can't do it uh in reality in real life,
so might as well. And I don't think that's unhealthy
at all. We all go through that. My sister and
I still debate about who's better in Sync or Backstreet Boys.
(36:29):
I go for in Sync, any you're you're weirdly out
in the of your generation and go for Backstreet Boys.
But you know, okay, this will be this will be
what finally tears as a part one day in sync
Backstreet Boys. Right, Yeah, no, I agree, And I think
it just breaks my heart that this normal process is
(36:54):
being preyed on might reser men because you do you know,
you are caught up in idolizing this person, but you
don't really understand that, you know, they are a person,
and maybe you don't really understand what relationships look like yet,
and you just are so excited because it makes you
feel like you're the special one. If they pay you
this attention and then it's abusive and you don't know
(37:16):
what to do about it. It just makes me angry,
breaks my heart. Other women have wrote about how these
lyrics normalized behavior from boyfriends, maybe even glorifying, glorifying behavior
like oh my boyfriend is so artistic or emotional thoughts
like that, And we talked about the romanticizing of emotional
men that happens a lot. It's kind of like a
(37:36):
running joke about the difference between men's pornography and women's pornography,
and that doesn't have to be bad at all, but
if this emotion is harmful, one sided, and toxic, then yes,
that is bad. It is bad, especially when we think
about young girls absorbing these messages and internalizing them, believing
that's what relationships look like. Are even yeah, young boys too,
um that that's what romance looks like and that's their
(37:58):
role to play in it. There's also a lot of
romantization of trashy campaign I find that's common in a
lot of our media, actually, that we really romanticize this
idea of like the tragic loner hero often or anti hero,
whatever the case may be. So that can be problematic
for people to absorb as this is what romance looks like. Right. Yes, Oh,
(38:23):
and this is a fact I found interesting. Other music
experts have written that in many cases lead male singers
have this like nasally quality and these songs that are
even not so great singing skills that would have been
critiqued the hell out of anyone that wasn't sis male
and we're straight that they are benefiting from a privilege
of being whiny and emotional when women are punished for
(38:45):
being trill and hysterical. In fact, women who have made
it in the emo pop punk scene have had to
be exceptional when it comes to skill of all, and
one of the articles specifically gave examples of Haley Williams
and April Lavine was like, they have four range octave,
Like they can do all of this amazing stuff. Meanwhile,
a lot of email dudes are singing like one octave,
(39:06):
kind of just like mumble talking into the micro. Mumble core,
y'all mumblecore that exists. Uh No, it's absolutely true, because
when you start looking at the newer wave, I guess
because Panic at the Disco came a little later. He
actually has a vocal range and it can actually sing
and hit different rages. But then you hit like Deathcat
(39:26):
for Cutie. He has a kind of operatic falsetto sound,
doesn't hit many of the cores, and he's very distinctive.
But if you heard him seeing regularly, it wouldn't be impressive.
You just kind of stared and be like all right
and move on. If you hear individual other stuff like that.
Dash Works Confessional. I can't quite remember. I don't think
(39:48):
it was all off Coolhan Luke. I don't know if
you remember who they were. He was Indie and he
was a little more on the Christian scene. He was
that level too, can s. But he seems so cool
and his lyrics seems so cool. So the title his
name was good cool and you would appreciate that, but
it actually comes from the movie. I'm sorry, but all
(40:12):
of those things are very different in sound, and you're like,
like that, this doesn't make sense. Not everybody. They just
have a band and they have some vocals in the background. Great,
but that's about the end of it. Yeah, I mean,
what do you think about it? And I don't want
to if you're listening to that. I loved a lot
of this music, and I still listen to a lot
of this music and enjoy it. But if you think
(40:32):
about it, like a lot of it is pretty you know,
one kind of range and similar in topic was it?
And they would say that for a lot of pop
to they talked about They make fun of that all
the time, and typically they make fun of girls pop
singers who were like they can only sing four notes.
But then if you take them out like Miley Sorus
is a great example. If you think she's just a
(40:54):
pop singer and then you hear her sing outside of
and she can hold those ranges, and she can hold
those notes, and she and hit every note without phasing it,
and you're like, hey, she's a singer, she gets it.
I can't hit those actors. Stop trying, Samantha, stop trying.
But there are things like that that you see people
dismiss easily because they seem like a joke, but in
(41:16):
actuality they have a talent beyond right. And people have
called down Taylor supposed to say, yeah, I'm a big,
big believer in you know, pop music has been really
looked down on, especially because I think the fans are
a lot of women and girls, and the singers often
(41:36):
are to you and actually quite talented, and we always
have to ask, like if the song is resonating, then
we have to ask why something's working right. So, yes,
admittedly exaggerating our heightening of emotions, it's not unique to
emo music at all. As the name might suggest. They
might have gone, you know, above the average, but it
(41:58):
is it's normal. Some of the bands have addressed their
past misogynistic lyrics and made changes. I mean, even before
this we were talking about past poetry. A lot of
my past poetry was really emo and like violent and
stuff that was unnecessary, but I was going I was
working through stuff. My mom found mine and asked me
(42:18):
if I was okay as a teenager. So yeah, So
I mean, it's it's it is more emotional and off,
I'm more violent. But music at large does that a
lot um and a large swath of music has a
history of being misogynistic, including rock and pop that Emo
(42:39):
grew out of. Others have correctly pointed out too that
while hip hop has been called out and sometimes dismissed
for misogyny for years, Emo and it's softer toxic masculinity,
as it's called How the Long Escaped It. Yeah, but
we're talking about Emo today, so that's the that was
the target, I mean, And to be fair, one of
(43:00):
the songs that called out the most was PanAm Moore song,
which is interesting in itself. Yes, I found that to
be true as well. But there is hope the Emo
Revival has a more female artist than ever that's going
on right now. Um though, yes, we still have a
long long way to go from the band. She heard
(43:20):
her song killing the Boy Band. Here's some lyrics. So
you started a band, We'll let me guess who's in it?
All straight, all white, able bodied systsmen say, you don't
know many female musicians, why the they want to be
part of a scene with people like you in it?
So yes, yes, and oh my goodness, listeners, if you
(43:42):
have any emo bands or pop punk bands with women
in them that we should be listening to, we want
those suggestions. I am ready. Christine has got tons of
these suggestions, producer, send them our way. You can email us,
Christina are also just you know, talk to us whatever
(44:05):
way you're more comfortable with. But listeners of you would
like to email us, you can or email Stuff Media
mom Stuff at I Hurt meia dot com. You can
find us on Twitter, app, mom Stuff podcast or on
Instagram at stuff. I never told you thinks there's always
to her super producer, Christina, I thought she's really emo.
She got it and thanks to you for this thing.
Stuff on ever told these prodection I Hi Radio for
(44:26):
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