The Women of Walmart (and Modcloth)

Walmart owns popular "feminist" retailer ModCloth. This Black Friday, we unpack why they might not want consumers to know that.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Bridget and you're listening the stuff Mom
never told you, and today you were really excited to
talk about the store you might have heard of called Walmart.

(00:25):
I'm sure some of y'all out there have one in
your town, drive by it, maybe you even shop there.
Today we're gonna be getting into some of the not
so warm and fuzzy aspects of how Walmart troots its
employees and another company you might like a lot more
than Walmart called Modcloth, and spoiler alert, they are now
the same company. They are now owned and operated by

(00:49):
the same company, which I have to say I actually
didn't really know. For a while. I was a huge
Modcloth fan, like a lot of women. I'm sure, um
a lot of that goods in my apartment are from Modcloth. Um.
I didn't really love a lot of their clothing, but
I loved their like quirky homewears. It felt like Portland

(01:09):
if Portland was a clothing store, which great place. It
was never my thing. So I bring some vice to
the table on this one because I was never that
into the vintage inspired but not actually vintage clothing lines.
But I do respect the way that they made choices
around their marketing, which we'll we'll dive into, but this

(01:31):
latest choice was certainly a doozy. It was a doozy,
and I think for a lot of their fans online,
certainly a surprising one. So to take it back to
Walmart for a minute, I know you might be thinking, Okay,
so Walmart is one store, it's one retailer. Why should
anybody care what they do and what their labor practices
look like. But here's why you should care. Walmart is
actually the world's largest private employer. They employed two point

(01:55):
three million employees worldwide. That's more than all of the U.
S is active military personnel, which is pretty cute. It's
like our milletary. It rivals our military. The Walmart workforce
is its own army. Yeah, that's an accurate statement. Army, Navy,
every every branch. That's crazy. Yeah, it's it's huge, it's massive.

(02:15):
So really, we should all kind of be invested in
how Walmart shoots its employees because the way that Walmart
does things sets the tone for other retailers. If Walmart
can get away with something in terms of labor practices,
other smaller retailers feel like they probably can to the
sheer volume and influence that Walmart brings to the table
influences what folks expect in the working world, um, and

(02:37):
what they can get away with. Just like you said,
Bridget it's payroll and it's pay and it's practices for
employee management and talent management. Really moves the needle in
terms of what workers can expect in terms of rights
in this country, definitely and across the world definitely, definitely,
because Walmart does have global reach. So unless you've been
living under a rock, you might already know that Walmart

(02:59):
isn't really own for treating employees very fairly. Um, there's
a whole If we did an entire podcast about all
the allegations made against Walmart, this would be a seven
hour podcast and you would probably unless you were driving
across country, you would never listen to it. Um. To
sum it up, Walmart has had a long history of
treating employees and not so well. In twelve, Walmart was

(03:19):
fine at the Department of Labor for denying workers over
time pay have to pay back four point eight million
in back wages. Honestly, like you said, if we went
through every allegation, we would be here forever. So in
terms of recent proven violations of workers rights. They also
were ordered to pay truck drivers fifty four million dollars

(03:40):
after a California jury found that they had intentionally underpaid them,
And just as recently as this summer, a report from
workers advocacy group A Better Balance found that Walmart routinely
refuses to accept doctor's notes, pedalizes workers who take care
of a sick family member, and otherwise punishes employees for

(04:01):
lawful absences. There's a ton of retaliation in the Walmart culture,
and it feels like, despite what the policies might be
on the books, that managers in each and every store
had a ton of leeway and made kind of arbitrary
choices and how they treated workers fairly or not so fairly,

(04:21):
exactly Emily, And later on in the show, we're gonna
talk to Janie Grice, a Walmart employee who says that's
exactly what's going on at Walmart. And a recent report,
based on the survey of more than a thousand employees
just like Janie, accuses Walmart violating the American with Disabilities Act,
the Family and Medical Leave Act, and a whole bunch
of other worker protection laws that are already on the books.
These are workers rights that we've already fought for, and

(04:43):
by the way, we don't really have that many in
this country right now, and a lot of them have
been peeled back or or or rolled back in states
that are right to work, states where labor laws have
become even weaker, and protections for workers have become sort
of a passe and not quite a thing anymore. But
even when it comes to the laws that we do

(05:04):
have on the books, and earlier complaint was made with
the e O c our our pals that we always
like to mention friends of the show, the Equal Employment
Opportunity Commission, and in a lawsuit filed last month, uh
reports show that Walmart discriminated against pregnant workers. And when
you really drilled down on the way that Walmart deals
with women, you really see that the problem is magnified

(05:28):
when you bring gender into the mix. The vast majority
of associates receive no paid leave or flexible schedules to
help them take care of their families. And actually Walmart
doesn't release their data on pay equity, but a two
thousand and one study found the man at Walmart make
an average of five thousand two hundred dollars more than women.
And that's just for the same work. And that's just
what we know about, right, So it's not good. It's

(05:49):
not good, and I think it's you know, we all
sort of know that Walmart sucks. We know that they
don't give their employees benefits, and those prices, the low
low prices like lure so many of us in um
and I always feel guilty when I, on occasion, stroll
into a Walmart because I'm in the middle of nowhere

(06:11):
on the road and i need a protein bar or something,
and they've made the experience seem really quite friendly and pleasant,
and they've really tried to brand themselves as like low
prices because you America deserves a break, and they play
into the financial insecurity that they're perpetuating. That's something I've
always found so difficult to wrap my head around with

(06:32):
Walmart is that I get it if you are a
frazzled single parent and you just need to run in
to grab some stuff on the sheep and then like
run back home and make dinner. Part of me can
totally understand why maybe Walmart's labor practices aren't the first
and foremost thing in your mind when you're just trying
to get through your day. Yeah, and everybody's got to
make those tough choices about the family budget and stretching

(06:54):
the family dollar. But it's important to know what you're supporting.
It's important to know that. In two thousand one, Walmart
was at the center of a of a lawsuit, a
class action lawsuit, Duke's versus Walmart, which was a landmark
gender discrimination case that made it all the way up
to the Supreme Court. Betty Duke's Walmart greeter, despite six

(07:15):
years of work and totally positive performance reviews, she was
denied the training that she needed to advance to a
higher salaried position, which, by the way, is something that
Walmart constantly is telling people. You know, the opportunities are
here for you. You You just gotta pull yourself up by
your blue Walmart best, you know what I mean. Like
they make it sound like if you're not rising in

(07:35):
the ranks of management, that's on you, because we've given
you every opportunity, And they try to make it clear
or at least there's i think a branded message that
we're here to offer career paths, and that's not the case.
In reality, a lot of the workers that we've heard
from and Janey, who we're going to hear from in
a minute, makes it very clear that those opportunities are

(07:56):
not given freely or equally. Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
Even in researching this episode, when you go to Walmart's
own website for employees and potential employees, the first thing
that jumps out at you is opportunity in advancement. They've
clearly sold potential employees on this idea that if they
join up with Walmart and work hard, they can work
their way through their ranks. And they love having all

(08:19):
these stats about how many of their employees started as
associates and then worked throwing up to management. It's clearly
a branding choice that they love relying on and selling
and packaging to make themselves seem really warm and cuddly.
Doesn't it sound like the American dreams? It does sound
like the American dream is also a false sale, Yeah,
which is not really like class mobility. What the hell

(08:40):
is that in this country anymore? You know what I mean?
So it seems like a battle of perception. Is it
on you, the individual to rise in the ranks, and therefore,
if you don't it's a personal failure or is it
the systemic injustices that are perpetuated by clear, calculated, strategic,
and structural choices about how this organized station runs its business. Well,

(09:01):
the one point six million women involved in this duke's
case would say it is not their choices, it's a
systematic way of keeping women down who work at Walmart.
In this filing, one plaintiffs store manager justified giving a
large raise to a male employee because he had a
family to support all the daddy bump. Remember we talked

(09:22):
about the mommy tax, which what was it? The daddy bonus?
He basically openly acknowledged, this is why I'm giving this
dude to promotion. And all the women and mothers in
the room were like than. He later suggestive to the
plaintiff that she quote doll up and quote blow the
cobwebs off her makeup to make herself more promotable. Who

(09:46):
the says blow the cobwebs off your makeup? I can
close my eyes and see who this guy is. A
packed lip of dip. He's like, you know what, sweetheart,
if you just blow the cobwebs off that makeup? Now,
what is this accent? I don't know. I like went
for some Texan and then it turned into like something

(10:08):
really not Texan. But it feels like this, like deep South,
good old boy. It's like a complete throwback, and I
think that that really illustrates the kind of climate that
these women say they were dealing with the Walmart. I
just offended all of our listeners in the deeps. I'm sorry.
I actually love Texas. Just the record, So we were
talking about this class action lawsuit and how they systematically

(10:28):
discriminated against women. So in a bunch of the store
managers at California, Walmart's not deep South. By the way,
we're advised at the institute where Walmart trains its managers
that the reason there are few senior female managers at
Walmart is because men were quote more aggressive in achieving

(10:53):
those levels of responsibility than women, which, by the way,
we already know as BS all the data set is
that it's not the fact that women are less aggressive
and not going for promotions and things like that. Actually
that's not true. Wants to embrace aggression. Who's like lauding
aggression here? What the hell is that about? I think
they mean an assertive which is a different soapbox that

(11:14):
I could get on. And this also just goes to
show you how much bad HR training is out there.
In my like putting on my diversity and inclusion HR
training hat, like, there are slides out there that say,
here's why women just can't get it right, Like, come on, ladies,
be more like men? What is with me in accents today?
I love it. I'm in like a loopy rage about

(11:36):
this though, So listen to this. The managers at the institute,
we're cautioned that efforts to promote women could lead to
the selection of less qualified women over more qualified men,
Which is that same tired idea that if you promote
women to promoting people who aren't as good, which we've
already debunked and our Silicon Valley episode. It is the

(11:57):
equal and opposite reaction to the gender and inclusion conversation,
and it doesn't surprise me, sadly, but it does remind
me of how basic the fundamental differences are between folks
who see gender and inclusion training and promotion as fixing

(12:19):
a flawed and inherently biased problem versus folks who think
it's like giving an upper hand and you know, stealing
jobs from white men stealing jobs from more qualified white
candidates than giving them to less qualified women and people
of color. Yeah, it also belieses the assumption that aggressive
is the model archetype of leadership, which is partly probably

(12:43):
the reason why so many of their managers pursue such
abhorrent policy. Totally, and you know, I have a whole
thing against that. I hate when people say, oh, if
you want to get ahead, just be just be more aggressive,
be more like men. I actually don't think that's good advice. Same.
I have a whole thing on assertive versus aggressive, which
will will dabble into more, but it's real. It's assertive.

(13:06):
You want to be assertive. You want to be reciprocal
in caring about other people's rights, but clear about what
you want and need, but not aggressive, not steamrolling over
other people. That's not what leaders do anyway. Sadly, this
case was granted class action status, but when it landed
in the Supreme Court, basically due to a loyally legal technicality,

(13:28):
the status was reversed. In a five for decision. The
conservative judges of the court felt that the women's complaints
were too dissimilar, there were too many, there was such
a myriad of ways in which women were being screwed
over that it wasn't fair to lump them into one
class action suit, which is just like, really, there's too

(13:48):
many nuances to how they women over like to make
it a class action lawsuits exactly. And you know who
we have to thank for that is the late Anton Scalia.
But of course our old friend and notorio RBG. Ruth
Bader Ginsburg had a lot to say about that. She
was a dissending vote in this case, and she said
that she found that gender bias suffused Walmart's corporate culture. Yeah,

(14:10):
and it sounds like all the judges agreed that there
was a problem with the form of the case, which
didn't argue that one million plus employees were discriminated against
in the same way. So it seems like someone's legal
team got lost on a technicality. Yeah, and it really
kind of set the tone that Walmart was able to,
I think, get away with unfair labor practices, particularly as

(14:32):
it pertains to women, for a while on a mass scale,
without repercussions. And I'm sure they had the best lawyers
in the world, you know. And and we're not lawyers,
so you know, we're not we're not able to break
apart the flaws in the case that was made, but
it does feel like they missed the point that the
justices agreed on the fact that these were discriminatory practices,

(14:55):
but they were just not similar enough in nature to
file in a class action lawsuit exactly. And these kinds
of disputes have not gone away, And in fact, earlier
this week, almost six years after the courts throughout the
Duke's case, more women are coming forward to sue Walmart
alleging gender discrimination. Now, this new suit alleges that Walmart
is violating Title seven of the Civil Rights Act of

(15:15):
nineteen sixty four. Right, So that's a federal law that
prohibits employers from discriminating against employees on the basis of sex, race, color,
national origin, and religion. And it really applies to businesses
with fifteen or more employees, including governments. So obviously Walmart
fits the bill. And in this lawsuit, they alleged that

(15:37):
Walmart's in Florida, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee,
in Virginia had a disparate impact. So that could mean,
you know, in wages, in hiring rates, in promotions, in
firing in terms of its female employees in those regions,
and it was not justified by any kind of business necessity,

(15:58):
So it was just pure discrimination. And I think the
guests that we'll talk to later in the episode, who
is actually based in South Carolina, can really speak to
what she's seen as a female employee working at Walmart.
We're gonna dive into some of the ways that Walmart
has tried to shed their not so nice image in
favor of a cuter, cuddlier, dare I say, more feminist
branding after this clickbreak and we're back, and we were

(16:28):
just talking about some of the ways that we kind
of already know Walmart isn't so great, But what's the
deal with Modcloth? Where do they come in? So you
may have noticed that Amazon is really taking over our,
you know, e commerce landscape, and Walmart has really been
trying to adopt a hipper, more modern vibe to compete exactly.
So They've added free shipping on their website, They've acquired
trendy e commerce outlets like jet dot com, and this

(16:53):
expansion for Walmart is, okay, how do we keep our
big box retailers relevant in an e comm era? And
so they've made strategic acquisitions to their company that can
help with their brand, can help them stay relevant, can
help them stay forward facing, and that is part of
the reason that they wanted to and successfully acquired mod Cloth.

(17:17):
So Montcloth is one of those companies with a cult following.
If you're like me, Like I said earlier in the show,
you Love It, women lived for this brand, and I
can totally understand why it had one of those cute
founding stories. Montcloth was founded in two thousand two in
a college dorm room. Susan Gregg Koger and her then
boyfriend Eric Coger founded it while they were students at

(17:37):
Carnegie Mellon. And basically it's one of those companies that
went from being founded in a dorm room to being really,
really successful and lucrative, which I think is a story
that everyone kind of loves. So after nixing this idea
of selling on eBay because she was a thrifter and
apparently there was a thing that a lot of boss
ladies were doing in this time period, um, the couple
ended up being able to support themselves throughout school by

(18:00):
starting their own site. So Monecloth was initially selling vintage
clothing through their website, but because they only had like
one or two sizes per item, and they were getting
to the point between two thousand and two and two
thousand and five when they were getting like seventy thousand
unique shoppers a day, and realized, Hey, even though we're

(18:22):
just college students and this was sort of a hobby,
this is something I could do as a full time
job upon graduation in a year. So it was certainly
more interesting than what the career center had to offer.
And they realized if they got serious about scaling their
business that they could actually pursue it. So Susan and
Eric decided they were going to pursue financing. They went

(18:43):
to a major fashion trade show in Las Vegas. They
put together their first own original collection that was not
thrifted but was inspired by the sort of vintage look
that Monocloth had built its brand around, and they ended
up raising some serious capital. Folks put a million dollars
into the business and it took off, and so Moncloth

(19:04):
grew from this very like, oh, very scrappy, thrifty female
lead endeavor to a venture backed, scalable business that was
making real money, which is so cool. I mean that
story of just being someone who loved to shop in
fifth stores and vintage stores and had an eye for fashion,
turning that from a hobby that you do from your

(19:25):
dorm room into a million dollar company. That's the stuff
dreams are made of. Another thing that I think made
Modo such a cult favorite is that they actually genuinely
seem to care about women and feminist causes. Right they
walked the walk, they didn't just talk the talk. So
in two thousand and fourteen, they were the first retailer
to sign the Hero's Pledge in advertising, which promised not

(19:47):
to use photoshop on their images. They were really known
for using staff members as models and other real women
instead of professional models, and had always been good about
inclusive of sizing and fit for different body types. The
employees also seem to really believe in its feminist mission.
One employee told jez Bell that it was an absolute

(20:08):
dream job. The thing that made it so special is
that the company was genuine when it talked about its values.
Everyone that worked there shared those values personally. It was
a place that you all felt good about the work
that you were doing. Those values explicitly involved feminism. She
adds Susan is a feminist, she's open about that, and
the company aligned with those values. I think that's why
it grew so rapidly. And I really agree. I think

(20:29):
there are so many crappy companies out there that talk
a big game about being good for women and wanting
to market toward women. Maybe your Ivanka Trump's of the
world might be included in that, But then when you
pick it apart, it actually is terrible for women or
treats women badly, or is it feminist at all, or
makes all kinds of crappy gross employment and labor choices.
I think it was really refreshing for women to have

(20:50):
a clothing retailer that actually one made clothes that you
would want to wear, and to seem to really respect
feminist ideals, not just in a way that was lips
of this, but in a way that was authentic. Also.
This was like years before Beyonce I danced in front
of the word feminist. This was before feminism was the
de facto marketing strategy for all women's business models. Um

(21:12):
And then in March, Modcloth was acquired by Walmart, Like what, like,
how does that happen? How does that story end? That way,
it seems like such a strange choice for Modcloth that
you have to wonder why. Yeah, I mean, that's certainly
what their fans were asking. There was a lot of
outcry online. Connie Warner, a Modcloth fan who started the

(21:35):
boycott Modcloth page on Facebook, said, the thing I loved
about Modcloth is that I knew the clothes I bought
there couldn't be found at Macy's and weren't worn by
the masses no more. I've unsubscribed from their emails. I
refused to shop at a store owned by Walmart, And
it just seems like for Walmart, a brand booster and

(21:56):
a digital acquisition in t stay relevant in this era
of e commerce. For Modcloth, it seems like a death
sentence totally, especially when your customers have so much writing
on you as this warm, cuddly, you know, feminist warm
fuzzies organization. To just sort of yank that rug from
under them seems like such a strange choice to me.

(22:18):
And it's no wonder that people on Twitter there was
so much hate. Like when the founder of mod Cloth
put the statement out on her blog that they were
getting bought by Walmart, all of the comments were basically like, oh,
you're selling your soul enjoying all the money. You said
that you were a feminist, but clearly you have sold
us out. I hope it was worth it. Yeah, Well,
tech crunches reporting that it's sold for between fifty and

(22:39):
seventy five million, So I'm pretty sure that the Kogers
are sitting on a pile of money saying, oh, our
internet fans are are mad at us, but somehow we'll
get on. She's like wiping her tears and hundred dollar
bills exactly, just like blowing her nose in them, you
know what I mean. Like the state meant she put

(23:00):
out about this was very eye opening in my opinion.
And I'll be clear here y'all. I was never a
big modcloth fan. I am not a Zoe Deschanel aesthetic
type Portlandia chick. This is not my thing. So I
was totally not in the cult of modcloth. And when
I read this quote from her, her statement that she
put out about this, which I should say, she's a

(23:22):
co owner with her husband, so we shouldn't put all
the blame on her. But when I read the statement
that they made about this sale in this choice, I
was like, this is the most narcissistic thing I've ever
read that does not value the response that her fans
are giving her. Here's what she said, so she told
Jezebel quote, I spent the last fifteen years of my

(23:44):
life working on this business and trying to make a
positive difference in the world. It hurts to hear former
employees and customers tell me that I'm selling out or
that I'm ruining the brand a k A. My life's
worked so far, But now that I've had some time
to think about everything, I've realized the negative reactions are

(24:05):
actually an indication of how strong the Modcloth brand and
community are. People truly and passionately care about it and
feel like it's something that they own, and that's extremely
hard to create in a brand. So I'm proud of
that reaction too in some way. Okay, first of all,
that is some real double speak of oh, well, actually

(24:27):
it's a good thing because it just shows that our
customers love our brand that much but they hate us now, Yeah,
I mean, aren't I amazing at creating a brand that
so many people bought into that they now hate me
for making this totally off brand choice about how to
cash out. Also, do you buy that she didn't quite
know how passionately people felt about this brand. Do you
think that's just something she's saying after that, I think

(24:50):
she's I mean, who knows. I'm speculating, But if I
saw Sophia m Rosso bankrupt her business and sell Girl
Boss like she's been selling it and start holding women's
empowerment conferences and traveling the world talking about what women
entrepreneurs should be doing, I would probably cash in on

(25:10):
that too. And maybe she had no options. Maybe she's
got reasons that we don't know about, but she's said
that she wants to travel the world. I'm sure she's
going to have her face on the cover of a
book sometime soon, touting how to start a feminist revolution
one vintage piece of clothing at a time. And honestly,
that like grinds my gears a little bit because she

(25:31):
left her company in the hands of CEO Matt Cannis,
who routinely makes negative comments about the use of plus
size models and wanted to see fewer of them on
the site, telling employees that they weren't quote aspirational to
look at. Although he denies saying that, Yeah, he denies
making these comments. He says that he never said that.

(25:52):
He says, look at our track record of including you know,
plus size women on the site. But a really interesting
article from Jez Bell called how Much Health, straight from
its feminist beginnings and ended at the Walmart property. They
actually look at glass door reviews from former employees, and
it really sounds like there was some issue in terms
of how they were going to move forward with being

(26:14):
size inclusive. And I think that's so awful considering the
fact that that was one of the main things that
made Modcloth Modcloth was the fact that they offered sizes
for everybody. They offered closed on everybody, And it seems
like this was something that as soon as the company
switched ownership, they were no longer really invested in protecting.
It was like this legacy that they had built. As

(26:34):
soon as they got a new CEO or bought by Walmart,
that legacy started to be shipped away. And that, I mean,
those are hard choices to make as a business owner.
They really are. I can't imagine like a future in
which I would leave my company in the hands of
someone else. But because I care so much about what
we do, and because I started it, which I understand

(26:56):
the kind of love that you have for a community
and a business that you've create aided just you wouldn't
hand your baby off to someone who doesn't share your values.
Wouldn't that be part of the negotiation and vetting process
of a potential acquisition. I mean, maybe they just felt
like this was their only option and they wanted out.

(27:16):
But it just feels like a huge PR win for
Walmart and a huge fail on so many levels for
everyone that loved moder Cloth except for those who are
sitting on a cash pile right now. Yeah, and I
mean there's there are a lot of their staff members
are leaving vocally, a lot of their clients and customers

(27:38):
are leaving vocally. I mean, who knows exactly how it
went down except the folks who were in the room.
But the founders said that they would be spending the
next year traveling the world and writing a book, and
that we've lived three lifetimes in the last fifteen years
and it would feel really good to share our successes,
failures and learnings with others. And y'all get ready for

(28:00):
some pr campaign around how she did it and how
you can do it too. And that's the thing that
bothers me most of all. It's like Girl Boss all
over again, which they just made a financially ruinous decision
for their company and she's going to capitalize on it. Well,
that's exactly the thing. As jez Bell points out at
the end of this article, you know who doesn't really

(28:21):
have the option to travel the world and sell their story.
The rest of the employees who are still let my cloth.
One of them is quoted in this article of saying
I'm left really sad and conflicted. I've been actively boycotting
Walmart for years. Having to sign papers saying I now
work for them is a tough pill to swallow, and
it just makes you think they probably learned all these
people into working for what they thought was this great

(28:43):
feminist company, only to pull the rug from under them,
you know, for money. Well, it's just like faux feminism
on display, y'all. It's not about what you say, it's
about what you do. It is not about one woman's
success story. That's all feminism is. It's not about supporting
a corporate conglomy like Walmart that routinely discriminates against women.

(29:03):
How can you reconcile those two beliefs. I am not
trying to throw shade at a woman entrepreneur or any
entrepreneur who's trying to make a buck. I get it, like,
good on you, but don't talk the feminist talk and
hand your company over to Walmart with their labor practices
and their outright hostility towards women exactly. And I think

(29:26):
you know, as women as consumers, something that we advocate
a lot more on the show is just knowing where
your money is going. So if you're someone who shops
at Walmart, shops at Modcloth, know what you're getting into,
know where your dollar is going, and know what you're
going to support. That's that's been my argument since day one.
I get it. I get that not everybody is ready
to cut Walmart out of their life completely, because maybe

(29:48):
that's not realistic for everybody. But I think that we
should be advocating or folks to understand what the companies
they support are actually doing in the world. And I
think that's what is so troubling for me, particularly when
you look at the fact that Walmart kind of obscures
that they own mod Cloth. When you go to modcloth
dot com, it doesn't say a Walmart company there there,

(30:11):
and I don't think that's a coincidence. Oh yeah, they
want this not to be in our podcast. They explicitly
want to not associate their Walmart brand. They want to
keep taking millennial women's money exactly. That's what they want, y'all.
So just know you're being duped into supporting Walmart for
shopping out Modclough right now. And as feminists, you know,
it's always important to be thinking about all different kinds

(30:32):
of women. If your feminism is just for upper middle
class ladies, it's not really, at least in my book,
it's not really feminism. And so when you're spending your money,
think about how other women are being treated, how that
money is impacting other women who might not be like yourself.
What are you going to support in their life. We're
gonna talk a little bit more about what it looks
like for women employees at Walmart after this thick break

(31:01):
and we're back today. We are so thrilled to be
joined by Jamie Grace. Janie is a Walmart associate and
a member of our Walmart, an organization that really harnesses
the power of Walmart associates to campaign for better labor
practices and therapy. Janie, thank you so much for being
here today. Thank you for having me so, Jennie, tell

(31:22):
us a little bit about our Walmart. What is our Walmart?
Our Walmart is this fabulous organization that I was lucky
enough to be able to join. Um. It's an organization
that were founded by current and former associates of Walmart,
fightings for the needs of the associates. And how long

(31:43):
have you been a Walmart associate? How did you find
yourself working there? Wow, I've been with Walmart now for
four years as of yesterday. I used to hear such
good things about Walmart and how it was a great
company to work for. Well, evidently that was long before
my term because I hadn't seen it yet. And what

(32:03):
happened with me personally, I lost my job UM that
I had prior, Well, it was years prior. The unemployment
rate in my my my my talent was so high,
we had the whole we had the highest unemployment rate
in the state of South Carolina, and it was really

(32:24):
really hard trying to sign a job. And I put
in an application of Walwar Walbar maybe two or three
years prior to me actually getting a job. I actually
had a job with UM the library when I got
hired on at Walmart, And the reason why I left
that job is because it was actually parts fine. So
when I was hired at Walmart, the manager who hired

(32:46):
me said that she would give me, you know, enough
hours to where you know, I could live in for
a while. That's that's what was happening. But you know,
with different managers, different things happened. So it all depends
on who. You know. Why is it important to you
to join an organization like our Walmart that's involved in
helping associates speak up for better better pay and better

(33:08):
labor practices. Well because I, I, for one, I got
tired of UM feeling like I was alone in this.
I didn't know that there were a whole lot of
more associates that was going through the exact, exact same
things that me and so many more of my coworkers
were going through. So being able to reach out or

(33:29):
have to or reach out to you and let you know, well,
we have an organization and we need people like you
to you know, speak out about injustices that that are
going on within Walmart. So that was just like uh
eye opener for me. Yeah, it's probably really impactful to
know that you're not alone with your with what you're

(33:50):
dealing with. So, if you're dealing with low pay, discrimination,
things that don't seem fair, sometimes it probably feels like
you're dealing with that just on your own and you
have to a shoulder that burden just on your own.
But when you find out actually a lot of associates
at Walmart are dealing with this, it could probably be
pretty powerful. I was amazed that how many other people

(34:11):
was going through exactly what I was going through. So
what are some of the stories that you've heard about
other people's experiences at Walmart? Oh? We where should I start? Um?
I've heard about associates who we're really really sick and
had to go into work, and some have actually fallen dead,
you know, because they didn't want to take their time

(34:31):
off to you know, go to the doctor, to take
the care of themselves because they couldn't afford them its work.
And I've heard so many stories about how pregnant women,
you know, they're out and they're only out for like
a little bit of time. They can't really involve with
their kids because they have to get back to work.
And oh my goodness, there's it's there's so many horror stories.

(34:56):
That sounds like such a tough choice to have to make. Right,
to have to choose between putting money on you know,
in the bank, and food on the table, and working
conditions that leave people feeling like there's no choice? How
do you How does that make you feel like going
into work every day? It makes you upset? I mean,

(35:18):
because nobody should have to choose between work and home
or you know, family, that that should be a given
at what's the point of time Walmart was a family
oriented company? Is so much has change. It used to
be more about the associates in them being with their families,
but now it's more, uh, Walmart and money. So yeah,

(35:40):
it makes you upset because it's just not right. It's
not fair. It's not fair for their associates. Has there
ever been a time when you felt like you were
facing a really impossible choice about what you needed to
be doing to provide for yourself or your loved ones.
Was there a choice that you've had to face that
in terms of how Walmart treats its associates every single week.

(36:06):
Don't pay for that choice. Because now that I was promoted,
I make good by the hour, But when you're not
getting any hours, it's difficult. So it's every sent the
the entire four years that I've been with Walmart, it's
always been a choice of am I gonna pay my rent?
Am I gonna pay my car payment? How am I?

(36:28):
How am I gonna pay my light bill? So it's always,
you know, it's it's been a struggle. It's always been
a struggle since I've been with Walmart. And and that's
frustrating in itself, because nobody should have to choose how
you're gonna pay your bills or how are you gonna eat,
or how are you gonna say it here of your family?
That should never be a choice. And it sounds like

(36:50):
you've been moving up the pipeline in Walmart. So what
a folks at Walmart had to say about this, you know,
when when you were given this promotion but yet still
don't get the hours that you need to make ends
meet all the time? How do the folks at Walmart
make that case to you about why you should stay

(37:10):
working with them and why you should invest in their company. Well,
they try to run the line. Well, you know, there's
always career opportunities to Walmart and you can always advance
and you know, in your career. But that's not necessarily true.
It is, but it's not because the way the way

(37:32):
that they do things now, they make people not want
to stay, you know, because they don't have these full
time positions that they talk so much about. It's only
certain departments, uh that have full time positions. And see
me myself, I work on the front end. I'm a
customer service manager. So we see a lot of cashiers
and customer service managers who just work part term. You

(37:56):
may go in for four hours a day, and that's
just ridiculous as an adult to have to go in
for those few hours when we have a whole family
that keep trying to maintain. It doesn't seem like it's
it makes you feel like a dignified person. It doesn't
feel like it gives you that. It almost seems like disrespectful. Yeah,

(38:16):
it does, it does. It really really does. Because I
have an eighteen year old and when he was working,
he works, you know, he works maybe four or five
hours a day. Here I am almost forty years old
and I'm doing the same thing as my eight year o.
It doesn't make sense. I mean, I don't understand how
they expect for anyone with the family to actually take

(38:40):
care of their family when you're working so few hours.
And it's not like they don't need to help, right,
It's just that they're taking all the work hours that
they have and chopping them up into tiny, little kinds
of shift work for associates like you, which seems like
a very intentional practice, doesn't it. It It seems like a
very intentional choice that Walmart has made that leaves workers

(39:03):
like you who are willing and able to give more
time feeling like you can't even get the hours that
you want. Jimmy, can you speak a little bit about
how Walmart is for women? Um? What's the climate like
for the women who work there? Hell, the majority of
people who work there are women. UM, I can't really

(39:23):
say that, you know, it's an awful company that really,
you know, supports women, because that's not what I've seen. Um.
They've been, you know, repeatedly sued for a gender discrination
and they refused to disclose how much women are paid
in comparison to men. I actually went to the shareholders

(39:44):
meeting in Arkansas earlier this year, and I was able
to actually, you know, ask them to give us those
numbers and they will not release them at all. And
from a report two thousand three, they found that women
working at Walmart at any level, they are a fifty

(40:06):
two hundred dollars less then they're real counterparts. So that
that says a lot. That's back in two thousand three
and here it is. So every daily nothing changed because
they're not releasing as data. We're asking that they're not
releasing it. And you did mention that you see a
lot of pregnant employees at Walmart having to come back

(40:28):
um soon after giving birth. It sounds like there's no
rights to maternity leave or paid leave, to take care
of a sick person in your family, or to recover
from childbirth. Is that correct? You know, that's great especially
for it like the lord level associates now management they

(40:50):
get I think it's about twelve weeks they leave when
they go out go out with their pregnancies. But as
far as associates for my level or lord, they don't.
They don't get the same things. They don't get the
same things. But but our Walmart, we just want to
change and got Walmart to adopt the new pregnancy pregnancy
um policy requiring the company to treat pregnancy as its

(41:14):
tipperary disability. So now yes, yes, so now pregnant associates
can have more accommodations. Do associates otherwise get time to
run to the restroom very often? Or do you feel
like that's penalized? Well, that's that's that the sands of
plant management and the stores. It's very very yeah. So

(41:36):
it sounds like there's a lot of variability based on
who's calling the shots in a particular store, despite what
the policies might be. You're saying that it really depends
on the management that you're a director, That's exactly how
it goes. Because what I've learned from UM since I've
been at Walmart, even the managers don't know policies, and

(41:58):
and with the work app the hour Walmart started, that
has really, really, really to the associates. It's been beneficial
to beneficial to management because half the time they don't
even know the policy. Just recently, UM, I was having
a conversation with my personnel manager and I was telling her.

(42:21):
I was like, well, I went back and looking my
check stuff, and I noticed that if you work a
consecutives for a weeks full time hours that you're supposed
to be guaranteed the full supposition. She was like, no,
full time, it's thirty four hours. I was like, no, ma'am,
it's thirty two hours. I wanted so bad. It's tell her,
maybe you need to download work it so tell us
about this app? Work What is this app? Oh? My

(42:45):
goodness is what it is? Walmart? The only time associates
have time to access policies is while they're on the clock.
And that's not good for anybody because who has time.
So our decided that they would get together and come
up with this app so that associates could go in

(43:08):
and ask questions and we have experts which on one
of them, and the experts will go in and answer
these questions for the associates because nobody has time to
access policy while on the clock. So Our felt like
we need to do something about that. We need to
you know, be able to put it policies right in
the associate's hands. It's like having a policy professional in

(43:32):
your pocket while you're on the job, right right, But
it almost makes me I think that's awesome, but it
almost makes me a little sad that it had to
come to that that these Walmart associates are up against
such misinformation from their own managements sometimes that they need
to have that third party app to be able to say, no,
here's what the law is, here's what your rights are.

(43:54):
And if you're and you can't even really expect your
manager to protect those rates or even really tell you
accurately what they are, it's like up to you to
figure that out. You're exactly right, they can't see how
you accurately what they are because they don't know themselves.
It seems like a really whackway to run a business,
to be quite honest, Like I think it is too.

(44:14):
I think that should be one of the first things
before you know, becoming a manager. No policy, Yeah, you know,
it's not like Walmart doesn't have the resources to train people.
It's not like they aren't training people. It's not like
they have a small workforce, like they are one of
the l there is the largest employer in their country
and they're the largest private employer in the world exactly,

(44:35):
So you can't have your policies available to workers who
aren't on the clock. Like really, obviously that's an intentional choice,
Like come on, really, Like that's what I'm Loft scratching
my head hearing from you, Janey about the ways in
which obstacles seem to be put in individuals pass so

(44:57):
much so that the burden always falls on you. The
burden falls on the individual associate to advocate for the
basic fairness that is already stipulated in the policies. But
maybe your manager doesn't even know or respect them, and
so I guess, I guess. My question is, you know,
what do you feel about this situation with mod Cloth?

(45:19):
I know that you've been involved with our Walmarts Modcloth campaign.
How do you feel like that's an extension of what
Walmart's been doing? Or why is it important to know
or for our listeners to know what mod cloth is
just signed up for by being acquired by Walmart. I don't.
I really don't think mark Cloth knows what they're getting into.

(45:39):
That's that's what I really think. Um. Then Walmart bottom
out there, you know, their their closmers were really upset
because they was like, Wow, we can't believe you would
sell your line to Walmart. Of all people, Walmart, they
don't stand up for women. They don't, you know, treat
their women fairly. And I just believe that this is

(46:01):
nothing more than an attempt to cover up a long
history of poor treatment of women. Can you tell us
a little bit about what our Walmart is doing around
moder cloth, your new campaign about it? Yes, ma'am. Well
what Hour has done. They've launched this campaign called hashtag
by my Clock, which is b b ye yes, yes. Um.

(46:29):
What we're doing is um this cyber Monday. We're calling
on women to stop shopping at Mar Claus and we're
asking them to join Walmart Associates, former mar Class Expociates
and other progressive allies to say hashtag by Mark cloy
Why do you think it's important for all kinds of
women to know about the way that Walmart treats its employees,

(46:49):
particularly female employees, because I mean, they need to know.
Like you said, Walmart is one of the big is
the biggest corporations in the world, and they don't want
to they're associates. They don't give enough hours if they do,
and the scheduling conflict is so crazy, and you know,
people they don't have times, you know, to take off

(47:11):
time for themselves or their families that the ship and
you know, or take pay family leaves and people even
know this, they really do. And then that we can't
actually go out and boycott Walmart, we decided, well, here's
a better way. Maybe there's a help. You know what
I'm saying, being that they bought my claws, Let's see
what we can do. Let's see if we can shut

(47:33):
them down. That's basically what we're trying to do. I
love it, Jade. I have to say, you schechly as
like a really bold, outspoken person taking on Walmart and
not being afraid to advocate and speak up for better practices.
Do you ever fear of retaliation from Walmart? Er? Has
that ever been a problem. I haven't as of yet.
I mean at my store. Like I said, I'm from

(47:54):
a little small town and we have a smaller supercenter.
Everybody knows who I am. Before I even joined Hour,
I was always outspoken, you know. I never held anything
back because I always feel like what's right is right
and what's wrong is wrong. And I've been a big

(48:14):
advocate for myself since I've worked in Walming. I've never
advocated so hard for myself, Trying to get hours, trying
to get a better position, trying to get full time.
So I had to step up. I had to step
up because I had I used to get tired of
associates coming to me talking about, you know, things that
wasn't going their way or things that wasn't right in

(48:36):
the store, and I was like, well, you know, why
not just joined with me. You know, they're trying to
make things better for ourselves. But it's kind of hard
because I live in the right to work state, so
everybody is afraid, Well, I don't want to lose to
my job and something. I had to stop being afraid.
I was no longer afraid, you know, whether they were.

(48:56):
I got the point where I really didn't care whether
they retaliated and not, because as long as I'm setting
up for was right, I can't be wrong. Where did
you find that courage, Janey? Because it isn't easy. What
you've described to us today does not sound easy. And
you've got a child at home, right, You've got that
your eighteen year old son that I mean, and he

(49:18):
still relies on you. I assume what is it feel
like to have the courage to advocate for yourself while
you still really want to provide for your family and
for yourself and make your life better while making lives
for all associates better Where do you find that courage?
And my son, I mean that's why I do this.

(49:40):
I do this for him, and he has a son,
so I'm a grandmother. I got yes, So I'm trying
to make a better life for them. You know, I
should have to be are here advocating for better hours
or you know whatever. But I got to because if
I don't, then i' be stuck getting twenty three hours

(50:01):
twenty five hours a week. How am I gonna live
like that? I can't that, I mean, I just it's no,
I can't do that. So I have to do what
I have to do as a mom, you know, and
as a grandmother. So if me advocating for myself is
what it takes, that's that's what it takes. And I

(50:23):
get my courage from them. They're my motivation, you know.
That's what keeps me going day to day. That's what
keeps me in Walmart. That's why I've been there so
long because it's not easy trying to find another job.
I've been putting in applications everywhere, and just recently I've
been you know, getting called in for interviews, which is fine,
but no one to say we're here, you know, we

(50:44):
we We're gonna hire you until that day comes. I'm
gonna have to stay at Walmart, and I'm gonna have
to keep, you know, advocating for myself and others. That's beautiful.
Do you ever feel like your son and I guess
your grandchild, granddaughter, grandson Instagram soon and son. Do you
ever feel like your son and your grandson that you're
actually through what you're doing with our Walmart and advocating

(51:06):
for yourself and other associates, that you're really setting up
this idea of women as these strong, vocal advocates who
fight for positive change? Yes? Yes, do you feel like
a role model for them? I'm trying to be. It's
not easy, but it's not easy. I'm trying to be.
You're like, I mean, I mean, what what mother doesn't

(51:27):
want their kids or grandkids to actually look up to them?
You know what I'm saying. You have to lead by example,
and that's what I try to do. I try to,
you know, to teach my son that you can't let
anything stand in your way. You have to go out
there and you have to get it. There's no excuse,
even though even though you may not always get what
you want. You have to at least try so. Absolutely.

(51:51):
How can our listeners who are listening to your story
and are listening to what's happening with our Walmarts mod
cloth campaign and with Walmart in general is treating associates
and women, how can they join you? Because you shouldn't
have to shoulder this burden all by yourself, right, you
shouldn't have to be alone in this effort, and it
shouldn't be up to just Walmart associates to make this

(52:15):
positive change in the globe's largest employer. What can we
do to get involved? What can everyday people do to
support workers rights of Walmart? Okay, well, the first thing
you can do is can you can support this hashtag
buy mor clock campaign? And I have three ways of

(52:37):
how you can do that. First, you could plash to
stop shopping at mar clos so they treat women with
respect by visiting www that my clock is Walmart dot org. Two,
you can say the message to my class on Instagram,
Facebook or Twitter and said, although why you're no longer
shop at at mar clock, be sure to use the

(52:58):
hashtag by my clod. And three, you can share hashtag
by mom claws content from our Facebook face stand Up
to Walmart. You can find it on Facebook by just
typing it stand up to Walmart. So if anybody wants
to jump in there with us and help us with
this campaign, that would be great. Hell yeah, by my

(53:21):
class by clost by it. I'm so honored that you
took time today to share your story with us, Jennie.
I feel like so often we talk about workers rights
and away on this show that doesn't always break down
the realities of what it actually looks like to be

(53:44):
on the receiving end of short term shift work from
a major corporate entity like Walmart. And so your story
really just made it so real for us in terms
of what it means to be faced with seriously tough
choices and unto off of dealing with that injustice, taking
on the added burden of changing how things are for everyone.

(54:08):
So thank you, Jenny for being such an inspiration and
an example of what it looks like to be a
boss advocate for yourself, even when you're not gonna always
get what you want. Like you said, like the courage
that you've just described as so inspiring to me. And
and I'm so excited that our listeners can weigh in,
can support your campaign? Can hashtag by mud Cloth all

(54:32):
day every day and especially on Cyber Monday and Black Friday? Yes? Yes, right, Well,
I appreciate you guys having me, and I'm hoping that
you know we have more people than a jump on
board with this campaign and help us out because we
need all the help we can get. You know, enough
is enough and it's just sound for Walmart to take

(54:55):
responsibility for what they're not doing. So hopefully this I
hope a lot. Thank you, Thank you lady, Thank you
so much, Janey. We really appreciate you being here with
us and you know, all all the best with your
campaign and continuing to advocate for change both at Walmart
and to be that awesome role model for your kids.

(55:16):
Love it? Okay, sminty listeners, what do you think of
all this? What do you think of the Modcloth Walmart acquisition?
Do you still shop at Modcloth? Did you never shop
at Modcloth? Did you love Modcloth? And now you're feeling conflicted?
How does Walmart show up in your life? We know
they're the world's largest private retailer. Do you shop there,
do you work there? Does someone in your life work there? How?
Does it show up in your life? Join us on

(55:38):
social media to continue this conversation. You know where to
find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast, hit us
up on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You, And
as always, we love getting your emails, so send them
our way at mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com.

(56:00):
Don't