What Does it Mean to Be Non-Binary?

Friend of the show Joey gives us a rundown on the wide array of experiences and histories that encompass identifying as non-binary.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Steff.

Speaker 2 (00:07):
I never told your production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 (00:18):
And welcome.

Speaker 3 (00:19):
Okay, so we have to put this disclaimer out. We've
been talking about doing this specific episode for two years now,
I think, and it's with Joey, our fabulous contributor and
part of the show and friend of the show obviously
and co worker on all the things. We've been talking
about doing this episode for a minute, haven't we we have?

Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yes, thank you, Hello.

Speaker 1 (00:43):
That's they're just a part of the show, of course.

Speaker 2 (00:46):
That's yeah, No, it's definitely. It's better. It hasn't been
two years. I don't know.

Speaker 4 (00:52):
This is definitely something I felt like I'll do this
at some point.

Speaker 3 (00:54):
I feel like me and you specifically talked about it
at the bar when I came to New York the
first time, and we were like.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
We need to have this conversation.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
So it's been a couple of years. Yes, No, it's
definitely at high Okay.

Speaker 3 (01:06):
Yes, we're teasing this because we also thought that what
bet a way to end Pride Month but to have
a Q and A about the spectrum of gender and
what it means to be non binary, and I guess
before we even start this, I guess we need to
know why we're asking you, Joey, to talk about what
it means to be non binary.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
No, for sure, I mean so I identify us on binary.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I think I've spoken about it a couple of times
on the show. Disclaimer upright, I'm going.

Speaker 4 (01:36):
To talk a lot about my experience and all of that.
You know that being said, there's a lot of people
in the world, and everybody experiences, you know, gender in
a different way. It would be you wouldn't I mean,
I would hope that you wouldn't ask like some random
man or woman to explain what womanhood or manhood or

(01:57):
whatever means to them and assume that that is what
it means for the entire population.

Speaker 2 (02:02):
So much like being non binary, and as I'm going to.

Speaker 4 (02:05):
Get into too, I think like kind of the nature
of the concept of being non binary inherently sort of
makes it hard to define, because I have like a
section of my notes right now that literally just says,
this is an enomology lesson. But it's like the word
non binary literally means not binary. That means anything that
sort of exists outside of the binary the man, woman binary.

(02:30):
So again, I'm gonna be talking about my experience. That's
not necessarily going to be the case for every single
person that identifies as non binary people.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Also within the kind of.

Speaker 4 (02:42):
Overall non binary umbrella, I think people don't realize how
broad of a term it really is too, Like it
encompasses a lot of different identities. So yeah, that's again
my disclaimer. If I say something and you're like, that's
not the case for me, then I love that. For you,
that's amazing, But I please don't come after me for
speaking my truth too.

Speaker 2 (03:03):
I love that.

Speaker 3 (03:04):
And I think this is one of those things where
when you and I are talking about it because I
had to apologize and.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
I did it again not two minutes ago, Like it's.

Speaker 3 (03:11):
Such a newer concept for someone who is an ex millennial,
Like we have kind of a spectrum because I am
like in between the gen X and millennial and Annie's
a true millennial and you are our gen zer. So
there's so many like levels in this conversation because I
really I harp on the fact that I'm like, yes,

(03:32):
I have understood that I am aging and I no
longer am up to date on what is happening in general,
and that I love having these types of conversations about
the fact that things are now seen as a part
of a spectrum instead of being concretely this, this and this. Yeah,
And I think that's one of the beautiful moments where

(03:53):
you and I were talking because we had first, of course,
met online and we talked to each other through the webs,
but you and I got to sit and actually have
a conversation over a couple of delicious drinks in the
bustling city of New York during Halloween time.

Speaker 1 (04:09):
So it was kind of nice too.

Speaker 3 (04:11):
But like, you and I sat down when we were
talking about it, and I had to be up front
like this is so new to me. I still have
a hard time like transitioning into them because that's such
a like a third person conversation, you know, growing up
in the nineties and eighties. But like, but it makes
perfect sense. It's just about understanding that things change and
things it.

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Should should have been a part of the spectrum.

Speaker 3 (04:34):
So with that and knowing that this is your personal story,
this should be something that we are talking about on
a personal level, because that's what makes this conversation important.

Speaker 4 (04:43):
Absolutely, And kind of like on that note too, something
like One of the points I sort of wanted to
talk about is the fact that yes, a lot of
I think people the terminology is new, like the word
not binary, right, that is new that I'm not denying.
I ended up writing something for Transitive dis Visibility, which
was back in March, and like posting on my Instagram, right,

(05:06):
I talked a little bit about this idea that you
hear a lot, I think from people that are a
bit older that they're like, Okay, well, this is like
a new idea.

Speaker 2 (05:17):
The idea itself is not new. The word is new.

Speaker 4 (05:20):
And part of what I think inspired me to like
want to talk about this is I'm working on this
other show.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Right now called Afterlives.

Speaker 4 (05:28):
Season two is out now wherever you get your podcasts,
you should listen. But part of that show is I
spent a lot of time talking to queer elders and
you know, also like digging through a lot of queer
history archives. The show is about marsh P.

Speaker 2 (05:43):
Johnson.

Speaker 4 (05:44):
I probably should have said that at the top, but anyways,
that is again, so a lot of a lot of
history research and something that I kept coming across that
I thought was interesting was there were a couple of instances. Again,
it was kind of mixed because there were some you know,
I do think it's a misconception that all sort of
like people over a certain age or just like, oh,
this is confusing, I don't understand it.

Speaker 2 (06:04):
Some people were got it right away.

Speaker 4 (06:06):
A couple of people were clearly sort of struggling with
the concept of like pronouns or like being non binary
or taking a non binary look at gender.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
But then I.

Speaker 4 (06:19):
Would look back at the things that they were talking
about or like the work that they had done during
kind of their prime in the queer rights movement, and
there were these things like introgny and like gender fluidity
that like came up a lot, and kind of the
early like the way that drag I guess was viewed

(06:40):
in the seventies, and that again is sort of changed
over the years too, and a lot of these words
meant different things then than they do now. But Yeah,
something I kept coming across is I was like, clearly,
you understand the concept the word non binary is new
to you.

Speaker 2 (06:56):
And this is where.

Speaker 4 (06:58):
I'll be so honest, y'all, I please don't cancel me
for saying this.

Speaker 2 (07:03):
I think we kind of up a little bit.

Speaker 4 (07:05):
I think we managed to pick like the least sexy
word possible for something that is like objectively very cool
and sexy, because come.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
On, like non binary, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (07:16):
And I think again, I think the word non binary
like something that helps me sort of think about it
shoe or helps me like explain to people.

Speaker 2 (07:25):
Is like think about it as like an adjective too,
like you're you're again, you're taking it's taking a.

Speaker 4 (07:32):
Non binary look at gender, and it's saying that like
you're not fully a man, you're not really one whatever.

Speaker 2 (07:36):
Most people exist within that gray area.

Speaker 4 (07:39):
There was another like news broadcast from the eighties that
I remember listening to at one point too, where they
were talking about one of the early Pride parates and
they were like, and this was like a like a
may I think this is like ABC or something, and
they were like, you know, men, women and everybody in between,
and so I was like, Okay, clearly, like the people
understand that. And like, even growing up in you know,
the early two thousand, before i'd heard the word non binary,

(08:02):
I understood this idea of like, well, there's like a
gray area.

Speaker 2 (08:04):
In between two.

Speaker 4 (08:05):
There's people that don't really fully fit into one or
the other. And I think what's happening now is more
people are embracing that label who you maybe wouldn't expect you,
And I think that's part of where some of the
confusions coming in. I think we're also like solidifying some
of the language about like you know, pronouns and whatever. Also,
I do want to stay upfront, like I use they

(08:26):
them pronouns. Not every non binary person like strictly used
to say them pronouns. A lot of people would just
sort of be like, I'm fine with whatever. Pronouns A
lot of people use like they she, they he. Again,
everybody's got a different experience. But then I also know
people that are like, you know, used she they pronouns
or he they pronounce that probably wouldn't call themselves a
non binary. They just are like, well, you know, I'm

(08:49):
a woman for the most part, but.

Speaker 2 (08:51):
Also gender is fake. And yeah, I'll power to you
for that.

Speaker 3 (08:55):
Yeah, I think that's amazing because yeah, we definitely just
recently had Withquel on the show and she was talking
about the mere fact that you know, when it especially
it comes to trans people, but all of this, they
they've always existed, they've always been here, they will always
be here no matter what happens, no matter what people
want to groan on and on and about and have

(09:17):
a lot of hypocrisy and bigotry.

Speaker 1 (09:19):
But they've been here and they will always be here. Yeah,
you're right.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
Growing up, I definitely heard androgynous quiet it. It was
never like fully realized to what that was. We knew
what that was, but to be a specific identity, like oh, yeah,
that makes sense, right, and then that's such a deep conversation.

Speaker 4 (09:40):
Yeah, I might not like the word in Rodyna's particularly,
Like one of my best friends growing up was like
the first person ninety that came out of binary when
we were I want to say, like eighteen, But even
before that in high school, they were experimenting a lot
more with like gender expression, and they really latched on
the term androgyny, and we're like talking about how they
were verianto like Androgena's fashion and just androgynous presentation and

(10:02):
all that. So that was sort of my which I thought, again,
I thought was interesting because this was a word that
kept coming up in all of these these interviews and
these archives from like the seventies and eighties, so clearly
there was sort of like the foundation for that that
was the word that I heard growing up in like
I wanted this was like twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, and like,

(10:22):
so there is a through line there, and that ended
up turning into how I understood what the idea of
being a non binary was. And then kind of on
the note about like pronouns, something that I thought was
interesting was this idea. Obviously, the whole concept of like
asking people for their pronouns and doing you know, and
you're doing interactions, putting your pronouns.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
On your email, all of that, that is a fairly
new thing.

Speaker 4 (10:46):
However, the fluidity of how people used pronouns like that
is not a new thing either. I mean, something that
I learned from working on the show was back in
the day, like regardless of whether you identified as like
a trans woman or just a gener queer person or
like a gay man, a lot of people were using

(11:07):
she her pronouns for each other, for their friends. It
was kind of an inner community thing. And looking back
at that, I'm like, yeah, that makes sense again. It's
something that it's it's situational, it depends on.

Speaker 2 (11:21):
It has always kind of been a fluid idea.

Speaker 4 (11:23):
People have always used different pronouns and different situations. We
have now sort of put in this system of asking people.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
And I get that.

Speaker 4 (11:34):
You know again, also when that hits like a mainstream
sort of expectation, it can be seen differently.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
But that also, I think it's not new.

Speaker 4 (11:42):
It's just the language that we use around how we're
like asking people for these things.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
That's new.

Speaker 1 (11:58):
I think we also wanted to put it here.

Speaker 3 (12:00):
I think it was funny you and I were talking
and I say, I was like, I'll be your nuna,
your uni, which is a Korean term for his older sister,
And then I started thinking about it, and you were like, yeah,
I think we really need to have this conversation because
I had to have an ABC with my mom and
it feels like.

Speaker 2 (12:15):
Like, wait, are you saying that.

Speaker 1 (12:16):
I'm like it, Oh, no, okay, all right.

Speaker 2 (12:20):
I get it. We need it.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
We need this talk. We need to have this talk.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Thank you. I did not say that you were I
had conversation.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah you did, but I heard that's what I got.
But you know what, I'm pretty sure that yes, we
we definitely do have this need to have this conversation.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
But as you were saying before, this is about your
personal journey and we're taking a little like deeper look
specifically with your experience. So can you kind of talk
to us and about and you and the listeners about
your journey specifically.

Speaker 4 (12:52):
Yeah, so okay, time to talk about me. Yeah, I
again I would say that I identify as my binary it. Honestly,
it kind of took me a little while to get
to that place. I don't think I would say, and again,
this is again my experience.

Speaker 2 (13:09):
A lot of people have had very different experiences.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
I wouldn't say that it was like that I always
knew that I wasn't a woman or I wasn't a man.
I know plenty of people that that is kind of
their story. They're like I always sort of felt uncomfortable
being one.

Speaker 2 (13:21):
Or the other. I didn't really feel like that growing up.
I personally, the.

Speaker 4 (13:26):
Way that I think about my experience is like I
grew up as a girl. I was socialized as a girl.
That really really impacted the way that I go about
the world now. And it's not how identify anymore. But
I see that as like, yes, that is.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
A part of me. Other people, again don't feel that way.
All power to them. Love that.

Speaker 4 (13:44):
So yeah, I think like growing up, I always was like, yes,
I'm a girl, I'm a woman. I'm seeing that way
and treated that way by society. But also something that
I realized sort of what as I got older and
then reflecting back, was girlhood and womanhood.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
It was always something.

Speaker 4 (14:02):
That felt like a battle, like it always felt almost
kind of painful. And I think the way that I
thought about to myself was, Okay, we live in a
deeply patriarchal world. It is very hard to come of
age as a woman. I'm responding to that. I'm responding
to the fact that womanhood is like a very painful
experience and like very uncomfortable experience.

Speaker 2 (14:25):
And I'm not saying that's not the case.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Like obviously, you know, we did to live in a
very patriarchal world. There's a lot of things that I think,
especially you know, growing up and being like very hyper sexualized.
And you know, again this was like the early two
thousands twenty tens, like.

Speaker 2 (14:42):
You turn on the.

Speaker 4 (14:43):
TV every single I don't know, it's like the beauty
expectations of like the two thousands was a whole other thing. Uh,
But like for me, something I mean the biggest sort
of I think flag looking back that I was like, oh,
it was like I remember having like panic attacks over
the idea of like having boobs. Like I was like,

(15:04):
I like, I don't know why anybody would want this.
This sounds terrible, like it ruins your life. And then
like talking to friends and being like, oh, you're not
having that experience, like you actually do want to like
experience puberty and like have all of these body changes,
like you don't just want to be sort of like
an androgynous slate for the.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Rest of your life. That's crazy.

Speaker 4 (15:27):
I literally remember I'm pretty sure this was Twilight, but
I remember wanting to a.

Speaker 2 (15:31):
Movie and I was like twelve. Yeah, I think it
was Twilight.

Speaker 4 (15:34):
I want to twelve, And there was a joke about
like one of the characters being like, oh my god,
like my boobs are gonna look so good in this dress.
And I remember being like physically, like why would.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
You want that? Like I was like that sounds terrible,
Like ah, like I just that's just gonna get you
like attention. That's uncomfortable.

Speaker 4 (15:50):
And yeah, I think it took me till I was
older to sort of realize like, oh, okay, that was not
like a universal experience you know, so.

Speaker 2 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, and then I think like.

Speaker 4 (16:01):
The idea of like what it was to be not
in binary. I first sort of heard about that when
I was like at the end of high school starting college,
and at first I was sort of like, Okay, well
that's not me because the people that I knew that
were coming out of saw binary a lot. And I'm like,
we're like, I don't identify as one of the other.
I'm sort of like I want no gender. I don't
identify with one or the other. And I was like,

(16:23):
that's not necessarily my experience. So I think like when
I was like sixteen seventeen, I sort of interpreted like
what I was going through as I thought that it
was because I was gay, and I came out as
a lesbian when I was seventeen. I identified as lesbian
for like the end of my teen years before.

Speaker 2 (16:43):
That, I identified as bisexual.

Speaker 4 (16:45):
And but yeah, I think I like around when I
was seventeen, I started realizing that I was really uncomfortable
with the thought of like having sex with a man
or a man looking at me sexually in any kind
of way. I think I still was like attracted to men,
but it was like the idea of being of a
man like freaked me out. So I was like, Okay,
this is a sign that I'm gay. And then like
flash forwarding too when I was twenty, that was around

(17:07):
when I was really starting to explore my gender identity.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
I cut my hair for.

Speaker 4 (17:10):
The first time, I was going by different pronouns, I
changed my name, all of that. I was presenting a
lot more masculine, and I think that was again where
I sort of came back around and I was like, oh,
I actually think I.

Speaker 2 (17:21):
Am by I am attracted to men.

Speaker 4 (17:23):
I just was really uncomfortable with the way that like
I was seen in a like heterosexual situation. Like the
problem literally was like it wasn't them, it was me.
Like it was like I was like, I don't love
what this means, the way that I'm seen in this situation.
And from what I've heard, like a lot of people

(17:43):
that are not just non binary, but like trans in general,
I think have had similar experiences where they'll identify as
like one or the other and then they'll start transitioning
and they'll like realize, you know, some of it is
just coming also from like personal just obviously this isn't everybody,
but I've a lot of people have.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
Had similar experiences.

Speaker 4 (18:01):
But yeah, going back to that kind of period of
time when I was like six ages like sixteen to
like nineteen, I knew I was queer. I think I
was uncomfortable with the gender binary. But again I was
sort of attributing it to this idea that like, oh well,
it's just like really hard to exist as a woman,
you know.

Speaker 2 (18:18):
I was at that point.

Speaker 4 (18:20):
I'm very staunch feminist too, and so I would say,
like again, I was like, the issue is it's the
subjectification or blah blah blah whatever, It's.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
All these things.

Speaker 4 (18:27):
But like, ultimately, at the end of the day, I
think it was an era that was just like defined
by me being confused by like some of the things
that I thought weren't universal were not.

Speaker 2 (18:36):
There was like one instance.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Where I remember like having a conversation with some friends
in college and somebody had like said something about like, oh, well,
like if you just woke up and you were like
in the body of a man, like how would you
And they all like had this visceral reaction where they're like,
oh my god, this would be terrible, and I was like.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
I feel like that'd be kind of fun. Like I
was like, I don't.

Speaker 4 (18:55):
I was like wait what Like I was like wait,
I was like surprised. I was like, oh, you guys
don't think about that. It's like, oh, that could be
like fun experience. I wish I could just go back
and forth like that sort of thing, and you know,
and again going back to the whole everybody experiences gender differently.
I do also know cis gender women that are like no,
I would love that. That would be fun for like
a day or two. But you know, I was surprised
by the fact that I was like, oh, my other

(19:16):
like girlfriends don't and a bunch of whom were also
actually I think in that situation they were all also queer,
which I was like, oh yeah, but like, especially like
as queer people, it makes sense that there's like sluidity.
I was like, oh, you're not having that same experience,
like you are very comfortable being a woman, being feminine.
And I think some of it was me like learning
for myself too, like.

Speaker 2 (19:38):
Just because I don't find something empowering feels like the
wrong word.

Speaker 4 (19:44):
But I don't I don't find something like affirming or
to be a part of who I am doesn't mean
it's not the same way for other people.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
And I think like learning that helped me realize that.
I was like, something is.

Speaker 4 (19:52):
Different, Like I'm experiencing the way that I want to
be seen in the world differently than a lot of
my friends that are also women or were assigned female
at birth.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah. And then so I when I was twenty, I cut.

Speaker 4 (20:07):
My hair short for the first time. This was like
literally a year before the pandemic. So I beat you
know what, I beat everybody else. I changed my pronouns
before lockdown, guys, I was ahead of the curve literally,
but I remember, like cutting my hair, I was starting

(20:28):
an experiment with like my friends.

Speaker 2 (20:29):
I was sort of like, hey, I think I want
to start go with my joey.

Speaker 4 (20:32):
I would like to use them pronouns, and you know,
started slowly at first.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Was just like with friends.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
Had changed my name on like a couple of my
social media you know, profiles and all that.

Speaker 2 (20:43):
I was still going by my.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
First name in school and all that, so it was
like not totally set, but I was like, I'm just
going to see.

Speaker 2 (20:50):
How this goes. And yeah, I think that was again
like the period where I was.

Speaker 4 (20:55):
Like, oh, I'm I'm feeling a lot more comfortable existing
in this gray area. And so, going back to the
thing I said before about like when I was kind
of ending high school being in college, a couple of
my friends had come out as non binary, and I
immediately was like, Okay, so this is not when I
am because I'm talking to them and they're like, yeah,
I don't really feel like identify.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
As a man or woman out or I would like
to be nothing.

Speaker 4 (21:15):
And I was sort of like, I feel like I
wish I could be like both, Like I wish I
could just sort of like go back and forth between both,
Like I wish I could either be seen as like
a very masculine woman or like a very feminine man
a lot of the time. So, honestly, and this is
back to what I was saying about, everybody experiences it differently,
and I think again looking at non binary is more

(21:38):
of a like taking a non binary approach to how
we see gender rather than this one specific checkbox of.

Speaker 2 (21:47):
You can either. Basically, I think this is what's happened
in the last couple of years.

Speaker 4 (21:51):
It feels weird to be complaining about this now that
you know woke is dead and trans people don't exist
anymore and all that, but I feel like I should
be grateful for the few wins.

Speaker 2 (22:01):
That we had for a little bit. But sort of
what I think ended.

Speaker 4 (22:03):
Up happening was, you know, we got that like third
check box on the like survey where it would be like,
are you a man or you women?

Speaker 2 (22:11):
Are you non binary?

Speaker 4 (22:12):
And then what happened was, instead of being like, all right,
so no binary is just like taking a non non
binary look at this, it was now we've made a
third category, so if you're not, you're either in one, two,
or three, instead of being like you're either in one
or two or you're somewhere in the middle. I don't
really know how we like obviously again it's that's a
big concept to try and like put into official terms.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
Like I don't really know what the answer is.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
But it was sort of this like check boxification of
what it means to be non binary. It was like
putting it into a very small category of this is
what it is. And with that people want a clear
concise definition and you really can't give it a clear
concise definition. But yeah, but I think at the end
of the day, I think, particularly as feminists, thinking about

(23:04):
what it means to be non binary, and thinking about
having a more expansive idea of gender is like a
very very important part of our understanding of feminism because like,
to me, this is sort of almost the endgame of
like what liberation looks like, because nobody wants to, like,
regardless of whether you're a CIS gender man or woman

(23:24):
or transperson or non binary person or whatever, nobody wants
to be defined only by their gender. Like, we're all
so much more than that, and we live in a
world where we have created these really rigid boxes of
who you are. Again again, it's that checking off the
survey box when you're you know, filling out the little
advertisement survey where you're like, I'm a just twenty to

(23:45):
twenty five, or I'm a I'm a man, I'm a woman, whatever,
And I think, I mean that is kind of like
like having that be our primary identifier. Is what you're
gender is. That is the patriarchy at work. That is
the idea that like, you're the gender you were born
with is so so definitive of who you're going to
be as a human being.

Speaker 2 (24:05):
I saw a Tumbler.

Speaker 4 (24:06):
Post about this, I know, super serious source point here,
but it was talking about the fact that which I
was like, yeah, this also sort of restinated something with me,
Like if you go back ten twenty years, the idea
of like gendered sports was a feminist issue, like the
fact that it was like we're saying, hey, like women
are not on the same athletic level as men, Like

(24:26):
that is misogyny.

Speaker 2 (24:28):
And now we've sort of circled back.

Speaker 4 (24:29):
Where turfs have taken this issue and been like, yeah, actually, no,
men are so scary and powerful and they can't you
can't have trans people in sports because of that. And
it's like, hey, what's happened, Like we've come back around
to now spewing these misogynistic ideas, Like we've come back
around to saying like biological determinism, the way the what
genitalia you were born with determines the type of person

(24:52):
that you're going to be able to be, which it shouldn't.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
I mean, like crazy idea.

Speaker 4 (24:56):
I don't think it should regardless again, if you're a
ciss woman assist man, it's the same situation. This has
also come up in things like you know, the like
oscars when there's like acting awards, like why is that
gender you know going back to the trans people in
sports thing. I think there was like a thing where
there was like a trans woman who was banned from
like a chess tournament or something where it's like, at

(25:16):
that point, like what are you saying. You're just saying
you think that, you know, people that are born male
are somehow so so radically different. And then like the
other thing we've seen from that whole thing is, you know,
like with the Olympics last summer, it doesn't just stop
at transoman. It's then just gonna go to anybody that
sort of exists outside of the gender binary, regardless of

(25:40):
how like, you know, however you decide to define the
gender binary in that case. So yeah, I think in
my mind, the way that I sort of think about
this is the concept of taking a like non binary
approach to gender, saying it is not just this one
thing or the other and you can only be one
or the other. Really owning into this idea that everybody
knows themselves best, right, like everybody knows what's best for themselves.

(26:03):
It is an idea of bodily autonomy. It is an
idea of like self determination. I think, at the end
of the day, if we want to create a world
that is more just and you know, not violently terribly
awfully misogynistic. You need to acknowledge the fact that, yeah,
like this gender binary should not be as strict as

(26:27):
to day is it to not really be.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
There to begin with.

Speaker 4 (26:29):
I don't want anybody to see me and have like
the main thing they're thinking about being like they're non binary.
They then I have to blah blah blah blah blah.
I like, my existence is so much more than that.
I I to me, it is saying like I don't
want to be defined by manhood or by womanhood. I
want to be defined by, you know, who I am
as a person who I am, And I think like

(26:51):
that is something that a lot of people in my
generation have kind of leaned into when it comes to
gender ninity.

Speaker 2 (26:58):
I keep thinking about there.

Speaker 4 (26:59):
Was litera there was a lie I first of all,
I saw there. There was like an Instagram post I
saw that was like, it's like the twenty year anniversary
of the like the bisexuality episode of Sex in the
City where they were like raking all the characters based
on like how much bio energy they have. But I
was thinking about there was like a line that Samantha
has in it where she's like, I think in the future,
like it's not gonna be like about sleeping with men

(27:21):
and sleeping with women.

Speaker 2 (27:21):
It's gonna be about like sleeping with individuals.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
And I was like, yeah, like that that is kind
of what like, at least for me in my bubble
and my gen Z bubble of people, like I think
that is how we're trying to reframe that.

Speaker 2 (27:34):
It's like, you know, regardless in.

Speaker 4 (27:37):
This case, we're talking about personal identity rather than attraction.
But it is like people just want to be seen
as individuals.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
As people.

Speaker 4 (27:43):
They don't want it to The goal of feminism is equality.
The goal of feminism is for us all to be
treated similarly, and part of that is understanding like we
don't even really need these clear cut definitions of what
it is to be a man and what it is
to be a woman, because like, who does that at
the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (28:01):
That helps the patriarchy, That's the answer for sure.

Speaker 3 (28:05):
There's definitely such a depth in this conversation because you
had a whole philosophical level of like, but I don't
know why I have to be this, but I don't
think of this because I don't feel this way and
it is so real that that's that's the understanding that
you have to unlearn so much of the misogyny and
the patriarchy that you realize how deep it goes into

(28:28):
your identity and trying to unlearn those And that's for
any individual who may not have that moment of like,
oh wait, I may be gay, it might be trains
that may be this or that. That's just the whole
level of unlearning.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
I think a big thing for me that idea of
like I'm learning too is realizing and this is kind
of what I was going into with that story was
like or talking about, you know, growing up and all
these things. I think realizing I don't have the same
experiences as everybody else and that's like that's not bad thing.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Like that's good.

Speaker 4 (29:01):
But it's also like it's realizing that something that can
feel like right and can feel like authentic for someone else.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
I might see that and be like thinking.

Speaker 4 (29:11):
Like, okay, thinking about myself, I'm bringing up this topic.
I'm not getting into the obvious debate that is happening online.
So Brina Carpenter was a great example for me for
there was when she first like came out to see
and I was sort of like, I don't like that is.

Speaker 2 (29:25):
A version of femininity.

Speaker 4 (29:26):
If you put me in that, I would be deeply uncomfortable.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
I would be like, I hate this.

Speaker 4 (29:31):
I am not this is not me, this is weird,
this is demeaning to me.

Speaker 2 (29:35):
I don't like it.

Speaker 4 (29:37):
Realizing that a lot of my friends saw that and
we're like, no, that's a version of feminity that like,
I really feel comfortable and I really feel like it
reflects my gender expression.

Speaker 2 (29:46):
I was like, okay, cool, that's like I love that
for you.

Speaker 4 (29:49):
It's a different experience for me, like being able to
separate what is my truth versus what is.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
Other people's version of that. We all have different EXAs experiences.

Speaker 4 (30:00):
We're all coming back to that, Like that's that's the
point of coming back to in the end, I guess,
I think, especially to something for me is like I'm
I consider myself a transvasculine person too. I honestly like
my expression. I lean a lot more on the masculine side.
I am not. I haven't done anything too physically transition yet.
I might down the way. I don't know yet. I

(30:21):
have friends that are kind of like one of my roommates.
I always like, don't about how from like we're doing,
Like we're like the two cars passing each other and
like being like, what what are you doing here? Because
they're like a transfeminine, non binary person. We had like
a conversation a couple of weeks ago where we were
talking about our experiences. We had like a very very
similar experience sort of again going in opposite directions, which
was a little bit funny, but also like talking to

(30:42):
them and like hearing how like exploring their femininity was
has been very empowering and has been very and like
getting to see them really turn into this like person
that you know, they seem so much more confident, they
seem so much more like actualized in this identity and
being like, that's amazing.

Speaker 2 (30:59):
I love that that's in power for you. I love
that that's you linking in to.

Speaker 4 (31:02):
Your Like if I did that, it would be I
would hate it.

Speaker 2 (31:05):
I would not be having a good time.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
But then yeah, and then I think that also helps
me then communicate to like, you know, I grew again,
I grew up a feminist.

Speaker 2 (31:15):
I grew up as.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
Somebody who is like seen as by society as a girl.
I grew up as a staunch feminist. I was raised
by like a mom who was very, very feminist. I
think being able to also communicate why like, I can
still be a feminist, I can still be supportive of
femininity and like not saying that masculinity is like better
than femininity inherently, but also realizing there's a lot of

(31:37):
things about femininity that I am.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Not comfortable with that I don't like for myself. You know,
I love it for other people, I don't love it
for myself.

Speaker 5 (31:54):
Well, we appreciate you coming on and talking about this
because I always feel you keep immering home at the
point everybody's different, everybody's an individual, and having a like
one oh one, it's very tricky, and especially when the
experiences can differ so vastly. And one of the things

(32:16):
that you brought up that I've also run into, which
I've always known, but sometimes it can be very shocking,
is that I also have a bubble. Yeah, sometimes I
leave that bubble. And even with people I'm like, I
feel like we're on the generally on the same page,
and they don't know the difference between Like.

Speaker 2 (32:36):
They couldn't tell me what.

Speaker 5 (32:39):
Like gender identity even is they don't know what that is,
and so you know, I'll like sit down and try
to explain it to them. But it's just really interesting
when you kind of step outside of the people who
really are in the same world as you. But that
being said, what are some things that you wish people

(33:03):
knew when it comes to identifying as non binary?

Speaker 4 (33:07):
Yeah, I mean I think the first thing is like
kind of what I was saying on the top, this
is not a new idea.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
I think the language is knew.

Speaker 4 (33:15):
The way that we were discussing it is new, but
it's not a new idea. I love to point to
the you know, anecdote about how I think it was.
I can't remember when this happened, but sometime in like
the early twentieth century, they stopped teaching kids that you
can only write with your right hand, like they were
letting kids actually learn how to be lefties if they
were lefties, and like all of a sudden, the number

(33:36):
of lefties like shot up, Like all of a sudden,
were all of these kids that were left handed, And
it was like it wasn't like there was necessarily something
that made more people lefties. It was just that they
were stopping punishing that.

Speaker 2 (33:48):
You know, it's people use that a lot.

Speaker 4 (33:51):
I mean people have talked about that with you know,
talking about like the way that we talk about like
autism diagnosis and stuff like that, people talk about queer
people the way we talk about they were like neuro
diver To see, in general, there's all these different things.
The way people talk about you know, a lot of
this isn't new. I think the reason you're seeing like
it might seem, you know, from the outside, like it's like, oh,
it's this gen z thing that all of these young

(34:12):
kids are tapping on, this trend. We just this is
the result of decades of people fighting for more gender equality,
of fighting for more bodily autonomy, of fighting for more
you know, queer liberation.

Speaker 2 (34:27):
More people are admitting that.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
I you know, you see older folks now that are
coming out as trans are is on binary as adults
because they just were never.

Speaker 2 (34:35):
Given that room to explore that as a child.

Speaker 4 (34:38):
Again, I think like for me, I always kind of
Again I don't think I always knew I was like
not a woman on me, but I always sort of
knew there was something that was different about me. I
didn't have the words for it until I was older.
So yeah, this is not new. The way that we're
talking about it is new. Every person can point to
somebody in their life that they were, like they're not
necessarily like on one or the other end of the

(34:59):
gender binary.

Speaker 2 (35:00):
Just because they weren't calling them non.

Speaker 4 (35:02):
Binary at the time doesn't mean that that was not
like you know, that they were not a real actualized person.
I think the next like the next thing too, And
this is something that always bugs me. I y'all like
we're not that sensitive. You can chill out a little bit.
I think this happens with like a lot of queer
stuff in general, where there's this idea of like, oh
my god, like like can't offend like anybody.

Speaker 2 (35:22):
Nobody hype.

Speaker 4 (35:24):
Most people understand like it might take a sec to
adjust to new pronouns or like whatever it is.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
It's for me it is like intent.

Speaker 4 (35:32):
Intent is the thing that matters if you are really
trying to work at changing the way that you're talking
about somebody, if you're really like working at you know,
addressing somebody in the way it's about respect. Like at
the end of the day, the way like when we're
talking about pronouns, we're talking about names and stuff like that.
It's about showing respect for somebody and saying, okay, like
I'm acknowledging that I'm treating you the way that you
would like to be seen. Nobody's gonna freak out at

(35:53):
you if you don't get it right right away.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
If somebody does, I'm sorry, that's their problem.

Speaker 4 (35:57):
That's not like, that's not a reflection on the rest
of us. That doesn't mean don't try. But also like, yeah,
there is room for you know, if you're confused, that's fine.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
There's lots of things they're confused. Again.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
The thing that I keep saying, everybody's got different experiences.
I'm not gonna pretend like I fully understand. I don't
know what it's like to be a trans woman.

Speaker 2 (36:17):
You know. I'm not gonna stand here.

Speaker 4 (36:19):
And be like I like, I'm not gonna be mad
because I'm like, I.

Speaker 2 (36:24):
Don't necessarily know.

Speaker 4 (36:27):
What that experience is life or what's gonna be comfortable
or whatever. I'm gonna say this thing and it's gonna
blah blah blah blah. I'm not gonna be like, well,
that's just too complicated and I can't deal with it,
and you're the problem. Like I'm like, no, teach me.
That's part of being a human being is learning. So again,
I don't know, but just I don't know where this idea.
It's very much like it's the right wing, like oh,
you can't say anything these days, like everybody's just so flake. No,

(36:50):
most people understand, and it's like I don't know. People
make mistakes, things change.

Speaker 2 (36:57):
I yeah, I don't know.

Speaker 4 (37:00):
One of the best sort of things that I heard
was like, Okay, if you're you can be confused by
it and still like respect people's ability to like express
their own bodily autonomy, right, Like you could be like
I don't totally understand this, but I support your right
to self determination or whatever.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
I think.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
Like, if you're still confused by this idea, I think
just literally thinking about that like check boxification quote unquote
that I keep talking about, Like the way that we
think about it is if you're like, yeah, if you're
a man, woman, non binary, these three options like just
get that out of your head, like destroy that. It
is not a third option. It is a looking at
this binary and being like, hey, there is all this

(37:41):
space in between.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
There is all this space in between. It is all fluid.

Speaker 4 (37:45):
It is all people go back and forth, people whatever
it is, looking at the idea of how we think
about gender in our world right now and saying, hey,
maybe it's not as set in stone as we were
told it is. And again, that's why I think I
keep coming back to this is ultimately like a feminist issue.
This is ultimately an issue of people having the right

(38:09):
to their own bodily autonomy, people having the right to
define who they are, people having the right to express
that in the way that feels comfortable for them.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
And then like at the end of the day, like
who really cares, Like is it really.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Bothering you if somebody is using them pronouns Like I'm sorry,
it's an adjustment, but like, I don't know. I'm from Chicago.
I grew up calling the Sears Tower. I also like,
it's the Willis Tower now. I grew up calling it
the Seers Tower. Nobody like in the media was like, oh, well,
you know, we don't know what to call it. What
are the Like, it's things change names all the time.

(38:42):
It's not like again, at the end of the day,
why it's not bothering you?

Speaker 2 (38:47):
It's not bothering you? What other people do. It's not
bothering you.

Speaker 4 (38:50):
If somebody gets a tattoo and you don't like tattoos,
or if they get appeers.

Speaker 2 (38:53):
Like, it shouldn't bother you. If somebody decides they want
to go by different.

Speaker 5 (38:57):
Pronouns, but bother them, it does other than the time
I get it, So do the tattoos and the fact
you know, I'm I.

Speaker 2 (39:07):
It should there are anything, but it does. Oh. I
think it's just like you know, we all know.

Speaker 5 (39:18):
But I think it's that idea of like this change
is and somehow encroaching on my beliefs and it's making
me uncomfortable. In heaven forbid, I have to take like
an extra second and like think about this.

Speaker 4 (39:33):
I feel like the people that complain the most to
are the people that it's like you you don't actually
know like a single transperson.

Speaker 2 (39:38):
I guess that's why I keep going back to.

Speaker 4 (39:40):
I'm like, we're not ready wants to pretend like, oh, well,
y'all are so sensitive, y'all like are gonna jump at
any And I'm like, have you talked to a single
non minor person like I don't, I don't know anybody
that most people I know like there was some comedian
that there was like a stand up bit that was
going around that they were talking about where they were like, yeah,
on my proe arounds are they them or she her?
Unless somebody use that because like I'm that confrontation or whatever.

Speaker 2 (40:01):
Like I was like, yeah, no, I was like this, this
is not party. I mean, I don't know that. Also,
just my social circles, I'm like most people I know
are like pretty non confrontational.

Speaker 4 (40:08):
People are probably gonna be like, oh yeah, whatever, sure,
let it.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
Go, move on.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
You're like, let it go, move on.

Speaker 1 (40:15):
All right, We're gonna We're just gonna keep going with this.

Speaker 3 (40:18):
I feel like you've already addressed because we were talking
on the next one of the other things.

Speaker 1 (40:21):
I would be like, what are some things that annoy you?
I feel like we touched on to that.

Speaker 3 (40:25):
When it comes to, uh, the non binary, when people
talk about non non binary folks in general, anything else
to add.

Speaker 4 (40:34):
I yeah, I mean I think like when I said, again,
it's the it's the just because language is new doesn't
mean the concepts are now.

Speaker 2 (40:43):
And then also it really isn't that big of a deal.
It's really is not like a to the end of
the day.

Speaker 4 (40:52):
It's about somebody's individual experience and that's nothing to do
with you, like it and it has nothing to.

Speaker 2 (40:58):
Do with you.

Speaker 4 (40:59):
I I think these are conversations people should have. I
think even if you are somebody who identifies as like cisgender,
I think, yeah, exploring gender identity, and even if you
come out of that and you still identify as gender like,
we all could benefit from thinking about the way that
we think about our own gender and thinking about the
ways that the idea of gender and the gender binery

(41:19):
sort of shapes how we view the world. I think
that is healthy for everybody to think about that. I
think at the end of the yeah, I think these
are important conversations to have because of that. I think
it is part of feminist liberation, It is part of
queer liberation. It is part of just personal learning who
you are, because yeah, nobody, like I said, nobody wants
to be defined solely by their gender. I mean maybe somebody,

(41:40):
I don't know, maybe the like tradwise on TikTok or something.
But you know, give them a couple of years, I
guess maybe we'll have an awakening.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Who's to say it they do.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
I mean, it's very important to realize, just like you
were saying that this shouldn't be a big deal.

Speaker 1 (41:55):
Everybody should be able to be who they are without.

Speaker 3 (41:59):
It being like you making you being like the yeah,
you making it a big deal, just existing. Most trans
people would rather just be there and be able to
quietly change into who they were felt like they were
meant to be, without people making it a big deal,
without people making it like a big part of their

(42:19):
identity unless they want to because they want to use
it for activism stuff like that that I think about
that all the time as an Asian, as a Korean person,
Oftentimes that's the only thing they see, that's my identifier,
and you're like, why can't.

Speaker 1 (42:32):
I just exist?

Speaker 3 (42:33):
And the same thing for like just in general, for
women and feminists who are like, we don't want this
separate category, honestly, we just want to be seen as
equal and be treated as equal and get equal pay
all those things, and it doesn't want to be a
big deal. We don't want it to make a special
category if you treated us equally, Like there's this level

(42:53):
of understanding that if society, if the patriarchy did not
exist or existed into when the matriarch was just as
much an equal factor in conversation, then it would be
wonderful that would I would rather be ignored as this
and be seen as talent, you know what I mean.
There's so much in that conversation and normalizing these conversations

(43:17):
where it's not a big deal. So we have the
younger generations who are trying to figure themselves out, don't
not feel the struggle an internal turmoil of like am
I sinning you know in that level, or if I
like ruin society and my family, if I come out
as any of these other factors that I was told
was not the typical, not the stereotypical way to be

(43:39):
like that would be beautiful, where just like if a
child was able to be like, oh yeah, I am
attracted to by same sex, that's great, moving on, you know,
like being able to have breakfast and then saying I'm maybe,
maybe not maybe I'm attracted to all any both, you know,
whatever what not, and not having to feel like they

(44:01):
had to fight against that because somehow they're wrong.

Speaker 2 (44:04):
I think.

Speaker 4 (44:07):
Going off of that, like I always kind of say
I never wanted the fact that I was queer or
the fact that I was not metting or whatever to.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
Be a big deal. I didn't want to have to
talk about it.

Speaker 4 (44:26):
I am somebody who like works in a like queer
media space right now.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
The reason for that is because we live in a deeply.

Speaker 4 (44:34):
Homophobic, tarensphobic, et cetera, et cetera world I where you know, I've.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Kind of I have to talk about it. I don't.

Speaker 4 (44:45):
I would love if I could just be like, these
are my promous this is what I want to do
whatever end of the day. But I keep having to
justify it to other people. And so I've kind of
learned how to, like, you know, have that be part.

Speaker 2 (44:57):
Of the things that I talk about.

Speaker 4 (44:59):
Yeah, I think I mentioned I had written something around
Rance dan visibility about this, and something that I.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Think I compared it to was in high school.

Speaker 4 (45:09):
I was I was really involved with a lot of
like student film stuff, and I was there a couple
of different instances where like I was the only like
girl on set, and you know, like, I think that
was an experience where I remember like being very vocal
about like women in film and like meeting more women
in film.

Speaker 2 (45:30):
But at the same time, I never wanted the.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
Fact that I was like I would show up to
the student film set, I would be the only girl.

Speaker 2 (45:35):
I didn't want.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
People to think about that, Like I didn't want people
to like look at me and be.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
Like the token girl is here, like whatever. And I
think it's the.

Speaker 4 (45:42):
Same thing with gender identity, where I was like, I
don't want the first thing that people think about, Like
I don't want it to be the thing that stands
out to be like, oh, well, they're non binary, they're
trans whatever. I don't want it to have to be
a thing that I have to think about that I
have to worry about how that's.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Impacting of other people are seeing me.

Speaker 4 (46:02):
I just want to be I think, like similar to
what you said, I don't want this separate category.

Speaker 2 (46:06):
I just want to be.

Speaker 4 (46:07):
Growing up I one of my I was really into
like riot girl music growing up Shocker and.

Speaker 2 (46:14):
I loved like Sleeterer Keeney.

Speaker 4 (46:15):
And there was an interview I think that Carrie Brownstein
about like where she was talking about how like frustrating
it was being interviewed and constantly being asked like about
being like a girl rock group instead of just being
asked about like being a rock group and like being
one of the biggest like rock bands at the time,
but they were constantly put in this category of like,
but you guys are like a girl rock group.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
Nobody wants that.

Speaker 4 (46:37):
Again, even if you're sis gender, nobody wants to be
solely defined as this thing that makes them different.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Absolutely, I think we many of us could have tested that. Annie,
you can at tested that. That's kind of how you
started with this show.

Speaker 5 (46:50):
Yeah, I wanted to be on the Science Show and
they're like, but you're the lady, so you're the whole
talk about girl stuff. You go to the Feminist, which
I'm glad I did, but I just remember being like, okay, right, Like.

Speaker 4 (47:04):
Sometimes I feel like kind of a like hypocrite for
add because I'm like, and I do work on like
the iHeart like queer slate of shows. I do talk
a lot about these ship but I'm like, but I
don't want other people to have to do it, like
I'm kind of doing it because like I don't shut up,
and I don't know, Like I was like, you know what,
I might as well, but I don't want this to
be the only option.

Speaker 3 (47:23):
You know, right, right, you have become a leader now
in this kind of conversation and advocate in this. So
what advice would you give to others who are maybe

(47:45):
starting their own journey.

Speaker 2 (47:47):
Yeah, I mean I think, oh, thank you. I don't
know if I call myself a leader, but you are.
Oh thank you.

Speaker 4 (47:54):
An I think like, at the end of the day,
like I said, I think, regardless of whether if you
come out of this and you're actually I think I'm
s gender. I think it is healthy for everybody to
think a little bit about gender identity and question lero
on gender identity. I think that's healthy at the end
of the day, Like you are the only one that
gets to define who you are, and like.

Speaker 2 (48:15):
That might seem cliche, but like it genuinely is very hard.

Speaker 4 (48:18):
I mean, it took me a very long time to
be open about this again because like I didn't again,
I wanted to short hair my entire life. I didn't
cut my hair until I was twenty because I was
just always told like I was gonna look ugly, it
was going to be bad. It was like a terrible decision,
I shouldn't do that. And then I cut my hair
and I was like wow, I like, literally something that
small made such huge difference in my life.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
You are you are the only one that really knows you.

Speaker 4 (48:42):
I think also something that really really helped me was
finding and and again not everybody has this option finding,
but I find it if you can, like find other
queer and trans people to like have in your life
to talk to about these things, that made so much
difference because I think, again, like a lot of my
friends that originally come out, I had very different experiences
from them. But also I think talking to them and
hearing about their experience has helped me figure out my own.

Speaker 2 (49:03):
I think at the end of the day.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
Like talking to even talking to my age, like I said,
talking to my sister friends about these things and finding
out that their experience was drastically different than mine helped
me also realize I was like, oh, a lot of
the things that I'm like, Like, there was a very
long time where I was like, womanhood is just pain,
Like it's just it's it is just pain, Like that
is it. And I was like, oh, like that actually
is not feminist. That's just me torturing myself at the

(49:27):
end of the day. And so yeah, I think have
these conversations if you can.

Speaker 2 (49:33):
It is hard.

Speaker 4 (49:34):
I mean, I again, I didn't like I knew a
couple of career people growing up in high school.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
But I most in my early sort of exposure.

Speaker 4 (49:41):
To the queer community was online, was through you know,
things like Tumblr. I think it's a double edged sword
because I literally before recording opened up TikTok and there
was you know, the latest round of whatever stupid Pride
Month discourse. Don't get caught up in the distractions, That's
all I'm to say, you know what. It also, don't

(50:02):
police other people's identity while.

Speaker 2 (50:03):
You're figuring out your own.

Speaker 4 (50:05):
There's a way to figure out your own identity and
while not getting too entangled with worrying about what other
people are doing.

Speaker 2 (50:10):
But yeah, I mean I think, I think at the
end of the day, it's your life.

Speaker 4 (50:14):
It's your life, and and you should be able to
determine what makes you like the truest, happiest version of yourself.

Speaker 2 (50:25):
And also, I mean, I.

Speaker 4 (50:28):
This is obviously and like I've alluded to this, it's
a weird time to be talking about this. I like, again,
I feel weird even complaining about the like putting the
little non binary check box.

Speaker 2 (50:37):
Because it's like, well now we don't even have that anymore.
But also, like things are bad right now.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
We've gotten through some of the worst, like we as
the queer community have gotten through, like within my parents' lifetimes,
within my lifetime, because technically sodomy was illegal in Texas
until like two.

Speaker 2 (50:58):
Thousand and three. Within my like it, it was literally
illegal to be gay. Like things, people have survived, People
are persisted.

Speaker 4 (51:07):
I think, like, find your community, find your little bubble,
you're enclave. Just because the worst, most awful people are
like in positions of power right now and making those
opinions loud. Humanity at the end of the day, I
think humanity is good. I think most people are good.
I think most people are willing to change their minds

(51:28):
about things. I think, like you know, we literally like
studies have shown when people like know people in their
life that are trans it changes their perspective on the
trans community.

Speaker 2 (51:38):
People care about each other.

Speaker 4 (51:40):
So don't also like I want to lose hope right
now that this is just going to be all there is.

Speaker 5 (51:46):
Yeah, yeah, it's a good message, and I'm so glad
we got to have you on before pride ended.

Speaker 2 (51:56):
Uh, because yes, yeah, I'll pushing it back. It has
been insanely hot in New York today.

Speaker 4 (52:06):
It's the first say, it's like kind of back to normal,
but it's about like in the nineties in New York
for like the past two we say in Chicago.

Speaker 2 (52:12):
I was in Chicago last weekend. It was I don't know,
it's bad. Yeah, yeah, it's bad. Yes.

Speaker 5 (52:19):
Well you also we kind of mentioned I don't know
if we said specifics because we just count Raquel as
our friend. Now, yeah, but Raquel is the host of
the show that you work on, Afterlives.

Speaker 2 (52:31):
Yes, yes, as mentioned.

Speaker 4 (52:33):
After Lives marsh P. Johnson out now wherever you got
your podcasts. At least the first three episodes are out.

Speaker 2 (52:40):
I don't know when this.

Speaker 4 (52:41):
The fourth episode might be out by the time this drops,
we'll see, I guess, but please give it a listen.
I again, I think, like kind of going back to
what I'm saying, I think. I think I I'm a
bighostory buff. I think like when things are weird, when
stuff is you know, the way it is right now,
I think it is important to look to history and
look to you know, our ancestors and see like what

(53:03):
how they survived, like see the things that I survived,
see the like things that they overcame. So I would
give that a listen you get into some of those
queer elder interviews that I was mentioning before again, fun
discussions all the way that, yeah, we've always kind of
been here a lot of There were a couple people
that we interviewed who I think like they they more

(53:24):
or less identified as on binary. They would have said
it in different terms because again, it's it's the language
has changed. But I was like, oh, I'm hearing you
talk about your experience and I'm seeing my own reflected
in that, like I've I've had, Like, it's we have
always been here, and I think history is a great
way to kind of remind ourselves of that. So anyways,
listen to Afterlives marsh by Johnson.

Speaker 5 (53:45):
Yes, yes, absolutely, and thank you because you helped set
up that interview with for Kel of course, Yeah, thank you, Joey. Well,
where else can the good listeners find you?

Speaker 4 (53:57):
Yeah, you can find me on and Instagram. I have
that PC front pressing that I wrote on my Instagram
that is at pat not Pratt. That is p A
T T n O T p R A T t uh.
People get my last name wrong a lot, uh. You
can find me there. That's also my Twitter but I
don't really use that much lately. And yeah, yeah, check

(54:22):
out Afterlives. You can also listen to Uh there Are
No Girls on the Internet, which is with another friend
of the show, Bridge Todd also work on that one.

Speaker 5 (54:32):
But yeah, yes, and past episodes over here.

Speaker 2 (54:35):
Yes, and I'll be back. I'll do more a new
election stuff right.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (54:41):
I was gonna say, like I need to come back
on and do it like a fine like Superhero. We
haven't done our Twilight Rappo.

Speaker 3 (54:52):
And then we also need to bring you back on
for Sex in the City because we're still on that
as well, and I love of attached to that.

Speaker 1 (54:58):
It makes me very happy.

Speaker 4 (54:59):
I did Ben the Hire Show after watching like one
episode of The Eyes and was like that honestly, I
loved it, like watching I watched it last summer and
it was like I needed that, it was it was
It's great. I did also recently watch the movie like
for the first time, Oh you watched the movie?

Speaker 2 (55:16):
That was like I so much happened. That was just
I like, literally like I fit.

Speaker 4 (55:22):
There were multiple points in the movie where I was like, oh,
it's the end, It's almost over, and I would like
click on the thing and be like we are twenty
minutes in.

Speaker 2 (55:28):
There's so much happens. They don't make movies like that anymore.
Oh that's exciting. Oh oh well, I cannot wait for one.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I'm excited for this.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
I am kind of on that, not two.

Speaker 4 (55:46):
I know, the like new the like reboot has like
a really awful like attempt to try to do like
non binary stuff or whatever. Like like I'm kind of
like morbidly attempted to watch it and just see how bad.

Speaker 3 (55:59):
It because it's it's a whole thing, and I don't
know what the new seasons are, like yeah, and just
like that, we watched the first season.

Speaker 2 (56:10):
And I was like, huh interesting. Interesting.

Speaker 4 (56:13):
All I know is there's a guy that I went
to college with who has like a small role in it.
And I only know this because I still follow him
on Instagram from like the one class we took together,
and he keeps posting about it and I'm like, wait,
like that's good.

Speaker 2 (56:25):
Anyways, I don't know, it's so weird to see like
people that I like. That is kind I don't know.

Speaker 4 (56:31):
Yeah, anyways, that's a whole story, you know, like you're
actually doing things that's crazy.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
But also Joey they carry is a podcaster?

Speaker 2 (56:43):
Yes, yes, yes, podcast. So it's a radio show. Yes,
oh yes, he says it's a podcast.

Speaker 1 (56:54):
They say it's a podcast.

Speaker 2 (56:55):
But you got you have to just go take a
chance what you're saying. Chut'll check it out. I'll check
it out, you know. Yeah, whoa, Okay, that's for laters.

Speaker 5 (57:08):
Many many things to come back and discuss.

Speaker 2 (57:11):
Joey. We always love having you. Thank you so much
for coming on. We know this was a big like,
can you come on.

Speaker 4 (57:18):
Of course, yeah, copya, thanks for letting me ramble for
an hour.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
Always love it till next time, next time.

Speaker 5 (57:29):
But in the meantime, listeners that you can contact us
if you would like, You can email us at Hello
A stuff neever told you, dot Com, provide us on
Blue Sky, I'm mo on stuff podcast or Instagram and
TikTok and stuff we Never told you. We're also on
YouTube and we have a book you can get wherever
you get your books. Thanks z always too, our super
producer Christina or executive producer, my anti contributor, Joey. Thank you,
Thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never told you.

Speaker 2 (57:50):
Production by Heart Radio. For more podcasts from My Heart
Radio You

Speaker 5 (57:52):
Can check out the heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.