September 1, 2021 • 52 mins
Recently, OnlyFans announced (and reversed) a ban on sexual content on their platform. Bridget Todd joins us to discuss how sex workers have been sounding the alarm about platforms like this censoring them, and why we should be listening to them.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told you, Protection of High Radio. Today, we
are thrilled to be joined by our friend and colleague
Bridget Todd. Bridget, it's so it's so exciting to be
(00:26):
with you. I feel like it's been a minute. It's
been a minute. Yeah, I'm so excited to be back.
Are my favorite lady? Yes? Same? And when on record,
someone just isolate that clip. We were just talking about
some trials and some tribulations because you've recently had an
(00:47):
injury and are recording from a new new part of
your house. Yes, I am like, Well, I usually record
from my kitchen, but I'm laid up awkwardly on my
couch because I have a broken ankle and I'm in
a cast, and I can only be comfortable if my
ankle is like elevated in a very awkward way. Well,
(01:08):
it doesn't look super awkward. I'll see that. It looks
kind of pretty comfortable, honestly. Okay, good, Yeah, I don't
usually get to record podcasts while I'm lounging on account.
I feel like it kind of looks like do you
know those like celebrity podcasts where it's usually they're they've
got their their video there on videos, so it's like
they've got the headphones and the microphone, but they're like
on a beautiful couch with a cool background. I feel
(01:29):
like that. I mean, that's a great way to feel. Yeah,
that's a good place to be. One. You don't look
like you're lounging. You look at your very much in
attention and professional and from what I can see, so
that's the person who probably has one of the worst
postures ever. So you know, kudos to that with a
book an ankle, because I always feel like like I
look like my body is broken and I just gave up.
(01:51):
So good job. You know, I'll take it. I'll take it. Also,
you were on TV recently. Oh I know, I get
to say I know a celebrity. Oh please. What's funny
is that I was at MSNBC uh two weeks ago,
a week ago, and you know that account room raiders
(02:13):
where they rate people's like their their backgrounds when they
do like virtual news hits or whatever. I got my
room rated, and so that's that very couch. I feel
like my drab, very old ikea couch is now a
celebrity and now the couch thinks it's, you know, a
big deal it is. That's awesome, the good for the couch,
(02:39):
you know what, you know what better day? Yes, I
mean this one is so old. It's like, oh no,
butts please, I'm famous now excuse me. Certain level of
person to know the couch is outshining me, like I
(03:00):
think it personally, it feels right though, so does ur. Well,
now that we've learned the couches surpasses, we're both really
excited for the topic he brought today, Bridget because we're
talking about what's been going on with only fans and
I was just completely incorrect about what only fans is
(03:25):
and I was only seeing like bits of like on
Twitter it was trending, and then I saw like a
bunch of like late night talk show host kind of
made jokes about it. I think I had been mixing
up Cameo with only fans this entire time, or at
least I thought they were very similar. I thought it
was like a place where you went and like celebrities
were like, Hey, that's that's what I thought. I mean,
(03:49):
that's not You're not totally far off, right. So cameo
is a site where you could pay to have celebrities
make a you know, a birthday message, a birthday shout out.
I've used it twice in my life. Um, I got
a cameo of Ramona Singer from Real Housewives of New
York saying happy birthday to my friends. So it's similar
only fans. It's kind of similar in that it's a
(04:10):
it's a content subscription service where creators can earn money
from their audience who subscribe to their content like a
k a. The fans and the only fans, And so
even though it is certainly widely known as a platform
for like adult content creators and sex workers, regular celebrities
are there too now and so, for instance, like back
to Housewives, I also subscribe to Real Housewives of New
(04:33):
York stars Sonia Morgan on only fans, and so her
content on only fans, it's not sexually explicit. It's more
just like behind the scenes and like you know, exclusive
content for fans. Um, I'm like, I'm I feel like
a little bit of a sucker that I pay money
for this. So like see videos of her, you know,
picking out outfits or whatever. But cameo and only fans
(04:54):
are not totally dissimilar, like you're not, you know, far off,
They're pretty similar in some In some regards, I think
I missed a cameo boat, so I didn't know much
about cameo until you guys are explaining it. So I
knew more about Only Fans because I do remember there
used to be an account on Only Fans that was
like a wholesome plant account. There was this woman who
had amazing plants and are like so she was doing
(05:16):
like the whole thing where she would just show off
for playoffs and talk about them on Only Fans and
that's what people paying for it. I was like, that
is so wholesome and kind. I'd never Okay, I like this.
I like that to you. And I think that really
does underscore why what people come to Only Fans for,
whether or not it's like adult content or explicit content,
(05:38):
or just sort of content that that audiences can really
see a value in and we'll pay for that value.
It really is like giving the giving your audience what
they want. So whether it's sexual content or wholesome plant content,
that's one of the reasons I think people have really
resonated with it because it is about giving people exactly
what they want right, and just the backtrack what exactly
(06:01):
is only Fans so that those like Annie who are
confused and mixing up what this is, can you kind
of tell everyone what it is and how it originated. Absolutely,
So it's a content subscription service where content creators earned
money from their audience who subscribe. So again like the
a k A. The like fans and only fans and
only Fans as a platform takes I think cut of
(06:22):
that money and it can really be lucrative for some creators.
Only Fans says that it has a hundred and thirty
million users and two million creators who have collectively earned
about five billion dollars. So this is big money, like
it's it's it's not a niche small thing. We're talking,
you know, billions with a B. And as I said,
I mean, there was a time where it was mostly
(06:43):
known for adult content and sex worker content, and it
kind of expanded to be kind of non adult or
non sexual explicit celebrities kind of connecting with their fans.
You might remember a while a while back Bella Thorne
was on Only Fans that it caused a big controversy
because people thought that Bella Thorne as a celebrity was
going to shift the marketplace and that they were no
(07:06):
longer going to be centering sex workers and folks who
make adult content, which I think was like a very
look looking into what's happening now with o Lengthans. I
think that was like a very fair concern, and it
really does underscore that sex workers and folks who deal
in adult content, they are often the most savvy when
it comes to tech, tech platforms and what kind of
(07:28):
choices those platforms might make down the line, like nobody
understands technology and staying you know, ahead of technology, like
sex workers or folks involved in adult content, because they
really have to be things shift so quickly in terms
of policy and what's allowed and what's not allowed. You know.
Sometimes they refer to sex workers as sort of the
(07:48):
tech canary in the coal mine who says like, hey,
this thing is going to happen, and they nine times
out of ten are correct. And yeah, I remember with
the Bella Thorne thing, it caused another controversy because the
way she advertised, or that it insinuated that there was
going to be a lot of more like nudity and
or whatever she was promising seemed really bigger and more
(08:09):
grand than what was actually given, which cost the site
to crash essentially because so much request was coming for
the refunds that they were having to give back money
that they didn't have, to the point that it really
really affected the rest of the people who had only
fans account that was making a lot of making some
(08:29):
money and it was kind of disrupting their cash flow,
right or their income. That's exactly right. And so you know,
I think that a lot of folks who are involved
in sex work rightly have concerns that you know, when
someone like a Bella Thorne comes on and completely disrupts
the model that that they've been working with, that they
will be the ones who are harmed or impacted. And
(08:50):
we know sex workers are already marginalized, they're not necessarily
folks who hold a lot of power or when it
comes to even this conversations about the technology that they
use and of built kind of like made popular or
made relevant. And so you know, again we see that
Bella Thorne example that you just explained, like that's a
great example of what we're talking about. What happens when
(09:11):
something that sex workers built up and popularized is a
decision is made that completely further marginalizes them and de
centers them from something that they have already been sort
of like building up. Yeah, so why don't we talk
about this, this decision that only Fans made, this news
(09:33):
that they made that, Yeah, it is very impactful, um,
towards sex workers who have used the platform. So here's
what's going on. So last Thursday, Only Fans that it
would ban explicit content starting October one. They said, affective
October one, Only Fans will prohibit the posting of any
content containing sexually explicit conduct. In order to ensure the
(09:53):
long term sustainability of the platform and to continue to
host inclusive communities of creators and fans, we must evolve
our content guidelines. They also said that creators could still
continue to post content containing nudity as long as it
was consistent with their acceptable Use policy, and people were
like collectively, wtf right, because again, this has been a
(10:14):
platform that sex workers and adult content have pretty much
been the thing that only Fans was used for. So
then Only Fans clarified. They said basically that this was
not really their decision. It was payment processors like MasterCard
that process the payments of these creators on the platform
that we're making this decisions. So they said these changes
are to comply with the request of our banking partners
(10:36):
and pay out providers, and again there was this massive,
massive outcry from folks who were rightly really upset because,
you know, although content and sex worker content like that
is that was like the bread and butter of this platform.
So they have since changed course, tweeting we have secured
assurances necessary to support our diverse creator community and have
(10:57):
suspended our planned October first policy change. Only Fans stands
for inclusion and will continue to be a home for
all creators. And so it was kind of like a
grand opening, grand closing kind of situation where they made
this announcement and then they were like, oh, just kidding,
but don't get too excited, because this is definitely not
the end of the story, and I definitely want to
talk more about why sex workers are still very wary
(11:20):
about the platform, and like, what's going on with that
policy coming at this from someone who is you know, like,
I think I vaguely know what this is. I didn't
(11:42):
know it was used mostly for sexual content, but now
I'm wondering. I think I have seen some horror movies
that have only fans in it, because of course I have,
but I remember that clarification of like, nudity is allowed,
but only if it's like not sexual, and I was
already like that was raising my flag of like, I
can tell who this is going to feel, like we've
(12:02):
seen that time and time again of who is the
judge of what that means. But that being said, that
was one of the problems that people had with this
right is that it was pretty confusing and not really
clear what they were what these rules would have meant exactly,
So their policy wasn't very clear. They said that they
(12:23):
were going to be banning sexual explicit conduct, but you know,
that's pretty vague. They said that nudity is allowed, but
sexually explicit content isn't to like, what exactly does that mean?
And it basically really puts the burden on contact creators
to sort out what would or would not get them
potentially kicked off of this platform, for whom a lot
of sex workers this is a big part of their
(12:44):
financial livelihood and so leaving it to be that vague
where it's just like, well, you know, we're not going
to give you more feedback about what is and is
not allowed. But if you break the rule that we decide,
you could lose lose out on like money, you know,
and so that pretty messed up. Yeah, yeah, that would
just be so confusing. And also you'd be like, who
(13:05):
do I really ask about this? How far do I
want to push it? And then something else, as you
were talking about, when it comes to technology and policy, um,
sex workers have had to really adapt and one thing
also at play right now is the pandemic. When it
comes to adapting to new environments. Oh absolutely, you know,
(13:29):
sex work is work, and so just like any other worker,
during the pandemic, folks have had to make changes with
how they can work safely. And so only bands banning
adult content during a pandemic, which is removed another avenue
for sex workers to safely make money at a time,
and we know those avenues have already been disrupted due
to the pandemic. So it's just at a time when
(13:49):
they're already a lack of safe ways to do this work.
It's just taking away one more at a time when
folks are already really you know, suffering, right, So okay,
if only fans is known as being a space for
sex work in this sexual content, and as you said,
(14:10):
like they kind of back touched from like, well it
was the credit cards they were pushing us. I mean,
I mean, I get curious why they made this decision.
Oh yes, okay, So this is where things get a
little bit complicated. This, I mean, this whole topic is complex,
and I want to name that right up the bat.
I kind of went into researching this topic thinking it
(14:31):
was one thing, and then realizing I was incorrect and
it was quite another. So when I first heard about this,
I thought, oh, this has got to be the same
old story where a marginalized community help take a platform popular,
and then that platform just abandons that group when they
want to kind of go mainstream. We've seen that before
with Clubhouse, with Patreon, like that is a common thing.
(14:51):
And I really held that opinion until I did this research,
and the research really showed me that. You know, I'm
not gonna say there isn't some aspects of that happening here,
but the reality is these payment processors truly did cave
to coordinated pressure from religious groups, and so there might
be some aspect of you know, only fans wanting to
(15:14):
go more mainstream at play. The real reality is that
payment processors cave to pressure from religious groups. And so
that was something that was new for me that I
learned in researching this topic. I was like, Oh, I
didn't realize that there was this behind the scenes, coordinated
effort to pressure these payment processors into cutting ties with
the pornography industry. Yeah. That's interesting because I feel like
(15:36):
this isn't the first time when you bought a topic
that I wouldn't have guessed would have this sort of
angle or intersection, And then when when I learned it,
I'm not surprised, but it's kind of like, Wow, how
much power these groups have that and I'm not even
hearing about it. You know that they're pressuring only fans.
(15:57):
This kind of goes into the Q and on slash
h Yoga mom type of conversation about trafficking and trying
to decide what that is and who is the arbitrator
of it and who is to defend it, And it's
definitely along those lines that I've seen it time and
time again. When we you know, we did that whole
episode about sex trafficking and social media and TikTok and
all of that, and when we talked about this, this
(16:18):
is one more that gets into that bigger scope of
protect our children, protect our girls types of mentality. And
I've definitely heard of these groups going after what are
the bigger things, including platforms, although we do see it
on other platforms, but for some reason we know why
only fans is the current target and that's the one
that's making the big splash obviously. Oh absolutely, And and
(16:41):
really you bring up such a good point, which is
that we all know that trafficking is a horrible, horrendous crime, period,
end of sentence. However, when these groups conflate things that
are not trafficking, which is like a very specific thing
with trafficking, So when they conflate consensual sex were or
consensual pornography featuring adults, you know, when they conflate those
(17:05):
things with sex work, it's not just you know, a
problematic thing, like, yes, it is problematic, but it's more
than that. It can be used to really fuel public
policy and political heft. And so this is not just
a movement happening online. It is being used to fuel
specific legislation and specific policy. And so you know when
(17:26):
someone gets on TikTok and says I think I was
almost traffic because I found a piece of cheese on
my car or whatever. You know, that may seem like
not that big of a deal, but when you follow
that threat and say, and that kind of scaremongering about
trafficking and misinformation about trafficking is going to be used
to fuel actual legislation that criminalizes already marginalized communities, that's
(17:49):
when things get really concerning to me. And so like,
this is not just an internet problem. This is the
thing that's really resulting in policy being made in real life.
And and are to really focus on two groups who
are doing this for this episode, Exodus Cry and the
National Center on Sexual Exploitation formally called Morality in Media UM,
which is sort of an interesting a little rebrand there,
(18:12):
I'm sure, I'm sure you can pick up why they've
changed their name. Basically, these groups have been waging years
long campaigns against sites like only Fans and their ultimate
goal is to abolish the sex work industry entirely. And
you know, as you said, I mean, they do a
really great job of making themselves seem like their only
goal is to eradicate sex trafficking, which if that was
(18:33):
the case, that would be very admirable. You know, even
the name the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. You can
understand why they change their name from Morality and Media
to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation because that's a
that seems like a much more admirable goal than like,
we don't like pornography being you know, like so I
can see why they rebranded. But to be clear, these
(18:55):
are morality groups who have a history of trying to
ban pornography and things that they do anti moral. Right,
You're so right on how they whoever did this change,
kudos like they did a genius job in rebranding themselves.
Because morality is subjective. No one's gonna sit here and
say sexual exploitation is a subjective. It's fine, it's fine
(19:17):
only if it's fine this way. No one's gonna argue
with that, and then being so official like their actual
government entity. Come on, exactly. So a little bit of
history about these groups. So in the nineties, the National
Center on Sexual Exploitation attached the National Endowment of the
Arts for funding what it deemed obscene and profane are
(19:38):
in The group called for a whitecott of all Time
Warner products because of the publication of Madonna's Sex Book.
If you're old like me, maybe you know, maybe you
remember this book. I actually own it because I am
a Madonna's superfan, and I mean it's basically like it
would be so tame today. It's like softcore pornography featuring Madonna.
You know, it's it's really you know, not not that wild. Um.
(20:03):
This group also advocated that safe sex curriculums were indecent
and then Exodus Cry is an offshoot of the International
House of Prayer, which, fun fact, the International House of
Pancakes once a boiled a suit against them for having
the same acronym I have. They eventually removed that suit,
but this group at one point supported the Uganda law
(20:25):
that made gay sex a crime punishable by death. And
so you can really see these groups are not just
interested in cracking down on sex trafficking. You know, this
is clearly that that's not these groups only motivation. Can
I put a caveat here, say I actually know people
who were people a part of the eye of Crew,
the Pancakes or the Prayer. Not I would be the Pancakes,
(20:45):
they who were part of the Prayer because you know
people and the International House of pancakes. Let me tell
you do you do want to give a know? Uh
and it was very coldish. We'll just leave it at that.
I want to know so much more, have so many questions.
(21:08):
We'll get together. Okay this maybe this is more like
like after the pot. Yeah. So just based on that,
(21:32):
like quick history, you can tell that the saying sex
trafficking is not they're not being completely upfront and honest
with what they are actually all about. Oh. Absolutely, And
that's something that really, you know, bothers me because obviously
sex trafficking is horrible and so bad. And the fact
(21:54):
that they would use something that is so serious, such
a serious serious like ill and crime something in fact,
they would use that to bolster their like anti consensual
adult porn agenda. I think it is so disrespectful to
survivors of sex trafficking, right, Like, I really have a
problem with that. And so here's actually a really good
(22:16):
quote that I found from Wired magazine. For those like
Exodus Cry who believe that sexual content shouldn't be available
to broad audiences, there's an opportunity to leverage a real
concern of underage and non consensual content being posted to
porn sites to achieve broader, more drasticals such as just
banning pornography and sex work outright. And you know, I
(22:37):
think that survivors of sex work deserves so much better
than having groups pretend to be advocating for them and
then an actuality advocating for a completely different thing, right,
like consensual porn involving adults is a completely different thing
than sex trafficking. And the fact that these people would
(22:59):
conflate them and cause confusion and you know, you know,
create smoke screens in order to promote their anti pornographic agenda,
I think it's so disrespectful, right, and it is dangerous,
just outright dangerous, which is kind of their whole moo
is they don't see a solution. They just want to
get rid of something that they're uncomfortable with. And the
(23:20):
same thing for abortion, when we talk about what they do,
is they they again pro life and saying, you know,
you're killing babies, and they're just doing a general arc
to sound as most horrific as possible in order to
deem a person the bad guy. And so they want
to make this as evil as possible to push their agenda,
which is a whole different conversation in itself, and if
(23:42):
that means outright endangering people for the sake of their
own morality or what they think is moral, they're okay
with it, which is again that bigger conversation of no,
these only fans. Yes, there's always going to be someone
who takes advantage of the system, and there's always gonna
be bad people who are doing bad things everywhere. We
know this, this happens. But for those who are able
(24:03):
to make their own decisions, have autonomy in doing what
they feel is safe and still being able to make
money the best way they can. Why not why are
we like, why are we regulating? Why are we going
to chat and take that off because you're uncomfortable with it? Why? Oh?
I mean I think I I mean I completely agree,
and I think I have uh an answer, which is
(24:24):
that when folks are legislating things like this and trying
to crack down on things like this, there is always
some kind of a convenient scapegoat, right, And so when
folks are concerned about the safety of their kids, you
can say, like, oh, well, trans people in bathrooms, that
is the real threat to my kids. So I'm going
to crack down on that. Or trans youth being on
(24:46):
sports teams. I'm gonna crack down on that, or sex workers,
I'm gonna crack down on that, or immigrants. Right like,
when people are feeling afraid or like they don't have
control or they want to control the situation, that feels
like they don't really know where to start. And again,
sex trafficking is a something that we should be spending
(25:06):
resources to curb and crack down on, right like, absolutely,
But I think that in light of that feeling like
a you know, a tough a tough mountain to climb,
I think it's easier to be like, okay, well sex workers, Okay,
well pornography, you know, even if those things are not
actually the same. Even though even if sex like consensual
(25:27):
legal sex work and adult pornography are completely distinct things.
It just I think that for some people it feels
good to have a scapegoat, to be like, oh, we'll
crack down on this easy to pick on group of
already marginalized people, and we'll feel like we're accomplishing this
thing even if we're not right and you're right on
without the picking on, because when we actually have victims,
(25:49):
if they're not victimy enough, they dismiss it because that's
for so long we've had that term child prostitute or
underage prostitute, and still people use that term non acknowledging. No,
this is a This is that trafficking victim that you've
been looking for to protect. Why aren't you protecting them?
Is that you're making them the perpetrator. What is happening? Yes,
(26:11):
and in many states, you know, trafficking victims can be
jailed for being victims of trafficking. Like, the way that
we deal with survivors and victims in this country is appalling.
And if we say that we are truly invested in
cracking down on things like sex trafficking, we need to
completely overhaul not only how we legally deal with these people,
(26:34):
but also how we talk about them and think about them.
Because there's no such thing as an underage prostitute. That
you are involved in an exchange of sex for money
and you are not of age, you are a trafficking victim.
But that's just that's just the reality. And so you know,
we we even our language does not allow for a
more you know, nuanced empathetic understanding of the reality of
(26:54):
what's happening. And you know what, as an investigator, as
a for the longest and I've worked with the Department
Juvenal Justice and I've worked with trafficking victims. A majority
of the things that we found, again, this is before
only Fans existed, So I won't I won't say this,
but I know I got a chunk of information and
a chunk of things that would go back and forth,
and we would have stacks of papers and print dolls
(27:16):
from things like Facebook and not necessarily not even like
on Craislist or all these other sites that existed, but
typically it would come off of things like Instagram and facebooks.
And that's one of the biggest ways I know perpetrators
still go after people, but as it's kind of unassumed
that they wouldn't use this platform, right, So the research
completely backs this up. So these groups like Exodus CRY
(27:37):
in the National Center for Sexual Expectation, they maintain that
they want to shut down these platforms because they're hotbeds
of you know, sex trafficked miners being used in child pornography.
But we know that the majority of abused miners are
not appearing on sites like only Fans. They're appearing on
mainstream social media sites like you said Facebook. So according
to the data, Facebook, not Only Fans, is by far
(28:00):
the biggest offender when it comes to child sexual abuse content.
According to an independent study released earlier this year by
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, mind Geek,
the parent company of corn Hub, which runs red Tube
and several other adult tube sites, accounted for thirteen thousand,
two hundred and twenty nine instances of what they deemed
child sexual abuse material, while Snapchat had a hundred and
(28:23):
forty four thousand, ninety five instances. Google had five hundred
forty six seven hundred and four instances. In Facebook topped
everybody with a whopping twenty point three million instances. Meanwhile,
Only Fans recently released its first transparency report and claimed
to have deactivated a total of fifteen accounts responsible for
child sexual abuse material. So we can see the main
(28:45):
offenders are not sites like only Fans, It's Facebook, It's
it's mainstream social media platforms by far, holy crab millions
compared to like hundreds of thousands. That's that is an absurd. Um.
That was mind blowing. Yes, um, And I think going
(29:08):
back to to what you've been talking about bridget One
of the most upsetting things about this to me is that, Yeah,
I feel like we're using victims of sex trafficking without
talking to them. We're just using them to And by we,
I mean society and specifically not us with these groups.
But yeah, we're we're like propping them up to you know,
(29:29):
do things and when to make ourselves feel better like politicians,
politicians and legislators aren't asking them, and we aren't asking
sex workers because I know this is something we talked
about when SESTA and FOSTA was up and it was
all about sex trafficking. But sex workers were like, no,
(29:51):
you're you're really not understanding what this is going to
do the impact of this, right, So you and I
did an episode of stuff I've never told you about
this back in that can listen to about SESTA and FOSTA.
So in this legislation about regulating the Internet um SESTA,
which stands for the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and FOSTA,
which stands for the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, was
(30:14):
ostensibly meant to crack down on sex trafficking, but actually
just further criminalized consensual sex work. And one of the
reasons why this is so upsetting is that advocates say
that cracking down on consensual sex work can actually harm
sex trafficking victims. Right, So one, it cuts off this
safer online avenue for sex workers to make money and
(30:34):
leaves them more vulnerable to like dangerous situations like trafficking.
So here's a good quote. Not having the online outlet
is going to hinder and harm a lot of people.
Online is much safer, particularly for trans and gender non
conforming folks. This is from La La Zannel, the a
c l used trans justice campaign manager who is doing
a lot of the work to lead decriminalization of sex
(30:55):
work campaigning. And then another aspect of this is that
sex workers truly do often act as a line of
defense for spotting and reporting sex trafficking because of the
nature of their work, they really know the signs. And
so if we're going to be criminalizing sex workers, we're
actually going to make everyone less safe because sex workers
are going to be much less likely to say, you know, hey,
(31:17):
I know what consensual sex work between adults looks like,
and what I'm seeing it right now is not it.
I need to report this. If sex workers are further criminalized,
they're gonna be much less likely to do that. Yeah,
And it's you know these groups that are saying like
we're just trying to stop sex trafficking and ultimately hurting
victims of sex trafficking even more, and just even funding
(31:39):
or attention, like multiple levels of it. And then recently
I saw a headline. I was surprised it didn't make
bigger news, but it was about porn Hub and porn
hub is being sued by several people who used it,
and they were claiming, you know, porn Hubb had been
engaged in all of this kind of like really dark,
(32:00):
messed up stuff, right. Oh yeah, So to be super clear,
earlier it was giving the stats of where content involving
abused miner shows up, and I said that Facebook was
by far the biggest defender when you compared things like
only fans or porn Hub. But I need to be
very clear, like, let's not get it twisted. I cannot
stress this enough. Porn Hub is a legitimately bad actor.
(32:22):
It is a hotbed of awful, abusive, not to mention
a legal sexual content. So I don't want to make
it seem like I'm downplaying how horrible that place is
because it true. They truly are a bad actor in
this space, which is why porn Hub was an early
target of these morality groups. So the history of this
is a little bit complicated, so I'll try to keep
(32:43):
it brief. The New York Times Nicholas Kristof published an
expose on porn Hub that found that many of the
videos there were of miners and non consensual sexual violence.
But the problem with this article is that his primary
source was a woman called Layla mickel Wade, and she
is the former director of Abolition of Exodus Scribe and
the founder of an anti porn hub campaign called Trafficking Hub.
(33:06):
And you know, we'll remember that Exodus cries their their
whole thing Exodus cry is to attack pornography under the
guise of fighting sex trafficking. And so this article did
a lot to legitimize cracking down on legal consensual pornography
made by adults as a means of cracking down on trafficking, which,
as we know, are two different things. And as a result,
(33:29):
back in December, MasterCard, Visa and Discover blocked their customers
from being able to make purchases on porn Hub. I
think now, if you want to make purchases on porn help.
You basically have to use like cryptocurrency like bitcoin, because
you can't use any of these major payment processors. And
sex worker Mary Moody told Dazed at its route, the
New York Times article is a religious anti porn groups propaganda.
(33:51):
It uses salacious anecdotes to tickle the puritanical subconscious of
the nation with its ultimate goal of censoring pornography. Um,
and you know, this is kind of like, for me,
one of those things where it's like even a stop
clock is right twice a day, where porn Hub is
legitimately a bad actor. And so I'm not exactly crying
any tears that they were, you know, pressured into breaking
(34:14):
ties with major financial processors. But I've actually seen a
lot of advocates say that cracking down on places like
porn Hub, while you know, well intentioned because porn Hub
is a bad actor, the consequences are actually more likely
to be felt by independent adult content creators who are
you know, following the law to create their content. And
so again it's a little bit of a complicated issue
(34:36):
because porn Hub, they truly are like a bad actor.
And I do not want to pretend that there anything,
but but it's just another one of those situations where
in the end the person who is feeling the consequences
are the independent creators who are like following the law.
And I think that's the whole complication of any of
(34:56):
this in general, that are always bad and good and
and it was set up to fail to begin with
with the fact that again, people who are looking to
make change aren't the people who have been in this
industry in any way whatsoever, and who those who have
actually done it safely and have done it in a
way that is consensual and you know everything that they
are the ones. They're not being talked to. Again, they're
(35:18):
being dismissed as if they are part of the problem.
As well as the fact that yeah, you're right, sometimes
they're right. Sometimes absolutely, there are all situations that yeah,
that you are correct here, revenge porn, porn hubs, use
of any video being just uploaded and being allowed because
people are mean, um in general. Sure, but yeah, that's
(35:40):
the thing is that they want to harp on that
and saying thing, this is the prime example of what
is wrong, instead of actually looking at the root cause
of what is happening. In the fact that we've felt
many of people in general, the fact that they like
they went down this road to the first place. We
don't know why, but I'm guaranteed because capitalism, you know,
it's all is capitalism, right, Like I don't care what
(36:02):
the problem is. Nine times in ten the reason for
it is capitalism. I have come. I have come to
see that very clearly. I don't know, I mean, this
(36:24):
is this is my opinion, but I think that in general,
we just have this attitude that certain people are quote
undesirable and it doesn't matter if they are, you know,
just making a living for themselves, following the law, like
a lot of sex workers, and I know they pay taxes,
they have accountants, they have like it is work. It
(36:47):
is not it is not some horrible immoral thing. And
this idea that like we don't even need to we
don't even need to talk to these people about the
work they engage in and how we can make it
safe burn and and you know, their concerns in the industry,
they're not even worth hearing. I think that that really
goes to this fundamental way that we really, we were
(37:10):
really comfortable to humanizing entire populations of marginalized communities, And
I think sex workers really is a great example of that.
You know, the fact that only fans didn't even feel
like they needed to consult sex workers before making this
change on their platform, that is a platform that is
almost entirely used by sex workers. What does that tell
(37:30):
you they didn't even feel the need to consult sex workers?
People have policy conversations that will dictate how they are
able to work and make money without even talking to them,
without and without even seeing them necessary to be talked
to you. But I think it really speaks to this
idea of like, who do we see as worthy and
who do we see as just not even human, not
(37:51):
even worth speaking to? Right? And I just love the
hypocrisy of the fact that, yeah, it's a growing, booming
industry and it has existed and continu us exist, and
it is being funded by these most likely by the
same individuals who are harping the loudest uh, And we're like,
are we ignoring that fact that there is a reason
why this industry is as successful as it is, So
(38:13):
let's talk about that and why you're seemingly ignoring that
part of this whole conversation. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean listen,
even if you're not somebody who watches porn or like
is involved in sex work. It's part of our society.
It's not going away, you know, like it's been They
call it the oldest profession for a reason. It's not
going away. So we need to stop acting like legislating
(38:35):
pornography and sex work out of existence. It's like a
idea born out of reality, because it's just not. And
so instead we should be talking about how we make
things safer, how we can support sex workers, how we
can empower sex workers to act as a line of
defense against things like trafficking, rather than saying no, we're
just gonna try to act like it's reasonable to completely
(38:58):
get rid of this entire boo being billion dollar industry, right,
And I think in our like media saturated world, we're
really bad at nuance, and like headlines are very bad
often at communicating what all all the complexities nuances in
a conversation like this. So when you have these like
anti boreography groups being quoted and you know, reputable newspaper
(39:22):
and they are right in this instance, but they're right
for the wrong reasons, Like the reasons they're giving are incorrect,
but the ultimate place they arrive at is correct, but
we lost all of that complexity and nuance, and it
just muddies the whole situation and we're we're like, well,
of okay, I mean, I'm I'm I like to think
(39:43):
I'm a better I'm pretty savvy when it comes to
things like that, But I didn't know what only Fans was,
and I think a lot of people like it ends
there like, Okay, porn Hub is like only Fans. In
my mind, porn Hub was bad, therefore this one's probably
bad and that's the end. And you can feel good
about yourself because you feel like you're helping sex trafficking
or you've made a smart, informed decision. And so I
(40:05):
do think like things like that do make me really
angry because I feel like people, a lot of people
do have like they're coming from the right place. Like
obviously there's some bad actors coming from the wrong place,
but there are people who are and you know, they
read this thing and they're like, Okay, then that's how
it is, and you know, not taking the further steps
(40:27):
because they're busy or whatever it is. So it just
makes me mad that that's happening. And then you get
this only fans thing, which has been very confusing because
they sort of there was this huge outcry over it.
And honestly, if I hadn't, if we hadn't had this conversation,
I hadn't looked into it, I would have just thought,
(40:48):
like I would have thought it was another pornography website,
the way like Late Night Show post, we're talking about it,
and then only fans changes their minds. But that's I mean,
it's ongoing, right, oh, absolutely, And so even though only
bands backed off of the decision, this is definitely not
(41:10):
the end of the story. Right. So, first of all,
as somebody who does a lot of tech accountability work
and like a lot of like platform pressure work, tech
platforms are always very tricky with their announcements. So I
clocked right away that their official line was that they
were suspending their band on explicit content, right. And so
that was the same exact language that Facebook used when
(41:31):
they initially banned Trump, which sounded, you know, very finite,
but actually just left the door open for them to
revisit that decision just you know a few months down
the line. And so I would really like to know, like,
are they actually permanently backing off of this band forever
or you know, because the words suspend really couldn't mean
a lot of things. And I think it's why tech
(41:52):
companies in their official releases like to use that kind
of language, because you know, it really couldn't mean a
lot of things. And so I really want to know,
like more about their decision. Is it just for this
one payment processor that they were you know, capitulating to,
or and so look, if another payment processor wants to
(42:12):
pull our cut ties, they're gonna you know, go through
this again. Like I need more definitive information from Only
Fans before I start getting excited. And also the fact
that these religious groups have made it clear they have
no intention of giving up an exodus. Christ spokesperson she
tweeted that Twitter is going to be their next target.
And you know, even if you're not a sex worker
(42:34):
or not or not on Only Fans, you should be
concerned about the way that trafficking is being used to
drive crusades against how adults can use these platforms, because
all of us should be concerned about that. And again,
you know, sex workers have been raising the alarm about
this that when their communities are cracked down on are marginalized,
are you know, censored? Everybody should be concerned, and so
(42:57):
you know, these groups have made it clue that they're
even though I think they see this as we lost
this battle, but we had and lost the war. And
then lastly, you know, the damage is done. Sex workers
have rightly lost so much trust in this platform, and
many are looking for alternatives because that trust is just
so damaged. And you know, as I said, sex workers
are already marginalized, and we're already in a pandemic, like
(43:20):
everybody is having a hard time, especially folks who were
already marginalized. And so we know that sex work is work,
and sex workers do not deserve to have their livelihoods
be threatened like this, especially when they are the ones
who made only fans the platform that it is today.
There's this great quote in this great piece in Days
from a sex worker named Savannah. They say the proposed
(43:41):
ban is bull Only fans knows its site would be
nothing without sex workers, period, it would be nothing. I
wasn't surprised, but damn I was disappointed. This happens every
time sex workers build a new platform up. It happened
to Patreon and now only fans and it will happen
to whatever site we migrate to after this. They will
let us break our backs to build a platform, only
(44:02):
to spit in our faces and toss us out as
soon as they've made their money. And I think that
that quote really says it all, you know, And I
have to say one other thing, Annie, to your point
about you know why only fans backed off of this decision.
I think one it was because of the organizing power
and collective pressure of sex workers, because sex workers are
(44:24):
very powerful, and when they use their voices and speak up,
those voices are heard. Because sex workers, I mean, it's
it's a it's a powerful industry. So that's one. But too,
I also think it is folks learning from the porn
Hub situation and not letting groups like Exodus Cry really
set the tone right, and so not just taking in
(44:45):
these groups at face value that like, oh, well they
say they're an anti trafficking group, nothing to look into
their they are completely you know, there are a great
source to base this entire expose on that will go
on to shape the policies of how porn hub operates.
I think this time around, people were unwilling to just
allow for religious anti pornography groups to set the agenda
(45:07):
without any kind of push back. And so I think
making sure that all of us really have our kind
of like critical thinking ears on when folks are talking
about sex work, when sex work is being legislated and
sex workers are not part of the conversation, all of
our little smighty senses should tingle to be like, oh,
this might be something that is not as it seems. Yes,
(45:27):
I'm glad to hear you say that. That makes me
very happy because that when you when you were like, yeah,
they quoted this one person kind of anti foreign lady,
I was like, oh, no, it's not good. So I'm
glad that that it seems to be that seems to
be changing. Yeah. We should always all of us be
very ask where like news is coming from, and um,
(45:51):
just who who's behind it and the motives behind it
and the motives behind decisions like this and that being said,
are there things that we can do to help? I'm
so glad you asked. Absolutely. Um. The first is supporting
sex worker owned and operated collectives and spaces, and one
that I love is the Sex Worker Outreach Project Behind Bars.
(46:13):
We can find it at s w o P Behind
Bars dot org. It is a great or working on
the decriminalization of sex work, not further criminalizing it, and
it is fantastic. Um. And then also you might have
local options of organizations in your community that are really
supporting sex workers. Um. I live in d C. One
of my favorite organizations is HIPS. I love Hips. They're
(46:36):
a great organization that really focuses on harm reduction and
really just you know, their sex worker outreach is like,
what do you need? What can we get you? How
can we work make this work safer for you, better
for you? You know? And yeah, so do some digging
into organizations in your community that might be good places
to help support sex workers. Also, when policies about sex
(46:58):
work are being discussed, look to sex workers for insight.
You know. Even in putting together my research for this episode,
you know, I talked to sex workers. I've had articles
about sex work written by sex workers. I followed sex
workers on social media. And I really want to shout
out a few people who's writing and thinking kind of
helped me get a better understanding of this entire only
fan situation. First is Kathy resin Wits. Kathy is an
(47:20):
Only Fans creator and a writer who covers the intersection
of tech and sex work. You can find are writing
all over the web. It's super good and another is
Ashley Like the sex Worker Outreach Project Ashley's Twitter was
super helpful and mean just getting a better understanding of
the kind of attacks that sex workers face on a
regular basis and a general understanding of the only fan situation.
Ashley is actually promoting an online action for September one
(47:42):
to protest banking discrimination and the platform and stability that
sex workers often face. So check out Ashley's Twitter feed
and the hashtag acceptance matters for more information. And again
just recognize that sex workers often just by the nature
of the work that they do, have really interesting, smart, nuanced,
thoughtful takes on things tech and culture, so they're always
going to be a smart follow if you're looking to
(48:03):
learn more. Again, both amazing resources and yeah, just do
some work finding interesting voices of sex workers that you
can look to when things involving sex work is in
the news, so that you're not just taking somebody else's
word for it, you know, without actually listening to their voices.
Because again, sex workers have very interesting stuff to say
(48:26):
about technology and culture and also, of course sex work.
And then the last things I'll say are kind of
I guess sort of um self work, as as as
my therapist might say. So, the first part of this
kind of like internalizing self work is really recognizing that
sex workers don't need to be saved quote unquote. They
(48:47):
need support, they need resources, they need you know, they
don't they don't need someone to like you know, I
guess a lot of the way that people talk about
sex work is like, we're gonna save you from this lifestyle,
and that's not really what sex workers are looking for.
Sex workers are looking they need support, right, And so
disavowing yourself of that internalized notion that somebody who was
(49:10):
involved in sex work automatically is someone who you know
is looking to be saved, I think shutting the door
on that fiction was really helpful for me understanding sex
work in general. And then lastly, if you consider yourself
a feminist, really deeply include sex workers in your feminism
(49:30):
and in your analysis of feminism, you know, recognize it,
you know, if you've ever watched pornography, taken a pull
workout class, if you enjoyed the film Hustlers with Jennifer Lopez,
which I know I did. All of these things are
things that we have because of sex workers. And so
you know, even if you're not somebody who enjoys sex work,
all you only need to look around to see all
(49:51):
of the ways that sex workers and sex work have
defined and shaped our culture and that at the very least,
sex workers deserve support. And if you consider yourself a feminist,
I believe that it's essential to include sex workers in
your analysis of feminism. Totally agreed, So well said, and yeah,
I think it's it's another point that you make and
(50:13):
we make in in these segments and these episodes. A
lot is that kind of that critical thinking and just
ask yourself when you're enjoying it, like do a little
bit of research and where did this come from? And
who are the people that made it? And who are
the people that maybe got kicked off of it, and
like just really asking those questions because this is, I mean,
this is pretty that a platform, and it's happened before
(50:36):
several times. As you mentioned, it would be like okay,
we've attracted in heavy quotes like more classy audience, Now goodbye,
we don't need you anymore. Like that's terrible, yes, really, yeah, yeah,
So thank you for bringing this to our attention. It
is always such a delight to have these discussions with you,
(50:58):
and I feel much more because I was confused by
the whole thing, So thank you, thank you for having me.
I mean, it's a media subject, it's it's, it's and
again this was all all this information was accurate as
of today Friday, but it's an ongoing situation so this
could change, so keep an eye on it, you know. Yes, yeah,
we'll go in time stamp does. This is August one,
(51:21):
so if there's things can change. We have to do
this a lot because we're out of date typically within
a week. So thanks so quickly. So Bridget, where could
the good listeners find you? Well, you can listen to
my podcast on this very network called There Are No
Girls on the Internet, where we talk all about all
of these fun, media complex issues of the ways that
(51:43):
tech and culture and marginalized communities and feminism intersect. You
can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever
you get your podcast on. You can follow me on
social media. I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and Bridget
Murray in DC on Instagram. Yes, and definitely check out
all of those things can't wait to have you back, Bridget.
(52:04):
If you would like to emails, you can. Our email
is Stuff Media Mom, Stuff at I Hurt mea dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at most Stuff podcast
or on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told to You.
Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
the direction of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff
I've never told you, Protection of High Radio. Today, we
are thrilled to be joined by our friend and colleague
Bridget Todd. Bridget, it's so it's so exciting to be
(00:26):
with you. I feel like it's been a minute. It's
been a minute. Yeah, I'm so excited to be back.
Are my favorite lady? Yes? Same? And when on record,
someone just isolate that clip. We were just talking about
some trials and some tribulations because you've recently had an
(00:47):
injury and are recording from a new new part of
your house. Yes, I am like, Well, I usually record
from my kitchen, but I'm laid up awkwardly on my
couch because I have a broken ankle and I'm in
a cast, and I can only be comfortable if my
ankle is like elevated in a very awkward way. Well,
(01:08):
it doesn't look super awkward. I'll see that. It looks
kind of pretty comfortable, honestly. Okay, good, Yeah, I don't
usually get to record podcasts while I'm lounging on account.
I feel like it kind of looks like do you
know those like celebrity podcasts where it's usually they're they've
got their their video there on videos, so it's like
they've got the headphones and the microphone, but they're like
on a beautiful couch with a cool background. I feel
(01:29):
like that. I mean, that's a great way to feel. Yeah,
that's a good place to be. One. You don't look
like you're lounging. You look at your very much in
attention and professional and from what I can see, so
that's the person who probably has one of the worst
postures ever. So you know, kudos to that with a
book an ankle, because I always feel like like I
look like my body is broken and I just gave up.
(01:51):
So good job. You know, I'll take it. I'll take it. Also,
you were on TV recently. Oh I know, I get
to say I know a celebrity. Oh please. What's funny
is that I was at MSNBC uh two weeks ago,
a week ago, and you know that account room raiders
(02:13):
where they rate people's like their their backgrounds when they
do like virtual news hits or whatever. I got my
room rated, and so that's that very couch. I feel
like my drab, very old ikea couch is now a
celebrity and now the couch thinks it's, you know, a
big deal it is. That's awesome, the good for the couch,
(02:39):
you know what, you know what better day? Yes, I
mean this one is so old. It's like, oh no,
butts please, I'm famous now excuse me. Certain level of
person to know the couch is outshining me, like I
(03:00):
think it personally, it feels right though, so does ur. Well,
now that we've learned the couches surpasses, we're both really
excited for the topic he brought today, Bridget because we're
talking about what's been going on with only fans and
I was just completely incorrect about what only fans is
(03:25):
and I was only seeing like bits of like on
Twitter it was trending, and then I saw like a
bunch of like late night talk show host kind of
made jokes about it. I think I had been mixing
up Cameo with only fans this entire time, or at
least I thought they were very similar. I thought it
was like a place where you went and like celebrities
were like, Hey, that's that's what I thought. I mean,
(03:49):
that's not You're not totally far off, right. So cameo
is a site where you could pay to have celebrities
make a you know, a birthday message, a birthday shout out.
I've used it twice in my life. Um, I got
a cameo of Ramona Singer from Real Housewives of New
York saying happy birthday to my friends. So it's similar
only fans. It's kind of similar in that it's a
(04:10):
it's a content subscription service where creators can earn money
from their audience who subscribe to their content like a
k a. The fans and the only fans, And so
even though it is certainly widely known as a platform
for like adult content creators and sex workers, regular celebrities
are there too now and so, for instance, like back
to Housewives, I also subscribe to Real Housewives of New
(04:33):
York stars Sonia Morgan on only fans, and so her
content on only fans, it's not sexually explicit. It's more
just like behind the scenes and like you know, exclusive
content for fans. Um, I'm like, I'm I feel like
a little bit of a sucker that I pay money
for this. So like see videos of her, you know,
picking out outfits or whatever. But cameo and only fans
(04:54):
are not totally dissimilar, like you're not, you know, far off,
They're pretty similar in some In some regards, I think
I missed a cameo boat, so I didn't know much
about cameo until you guys are explaining it. So I
knew more about Only Fans because I do remember there
used to be an account on Only Fans that was
like a wholesome plant account. There was this woman who
had amazing plants and are like so she was doing
(05:16):
like the whole thing where she would just show off
for playoffs and talk about them on Only Fans and
that's what people paying for it. I was like, that
is so wholesome and kind. I'd never Okay, I like this.
I like that to you. And I think that really
does underscore why what people come to Only Fans for,
whether or not it's like adult content or explicit content,
(05:38):
or just sort of content that that audiences can really
see a value in and we'll pay for that value.
It really is like giving the giving your audience what
they want. So whether it's sexual content or wholesome plant content,
that's one of the reasons I think people have really
resonated with it because it is about giving people exactly
what they want right, and just the backtrack what exactly
(06:01):
is only Fans so that those like Annie who are
confused and mixing up what this is, can you kind
of tell everyone what it is and how it originated. Absolutely,
So it's a content subscription service where content creators earned
money from their audience who subscribe. So again like the
a k A. The like fans and only fans and
only Fans as a platform takes I think cut of
(06:22):
that money and it can really be lucrative for some creators.
Only Fans says that it has a hundred and thirty
million users and two million creators who have collectively earned
about five billion dollars. So this is big money, like
it's it's it's not a niche small thing. We're talking,
you know, billions with a B. And as I said,
I mean, there was a time where it was mostly
(06:43):
known for adult content and sex worker content, and it
kind of expanded to be kind of non adult or
non sexual explicit celebrities kind of connecting with their fans.
You might remember a while a while back Bella Thorne
was on Only Fans that it caused a big controversy
because people thought that Bella Thorne as a celebrity was
going to shift the marketplace and that they were no
(07:06):
longer going to be centering sex workers and folks who
make adult content, which I think was like a very
look looking into what's happening now with o Lengthans. I
think that was like a very fair concern, and it
really does underscore that sex workers and folks who deal
in adult content, they are often the most savvy when
it comes to tech, tech platforms and what kind of
(07:28):
choices those platforms might make down the line, like nobody
understands technology and staying you know, ahead of technology, like
sex workers or folks involved in adult content, because they
really have to be things shift so quickly in terms
of policy and what's allowed and what's not allowed. You know.
Sometimes they refer to sex workers as sort of the
(07:48):
tech canary in the coal mine who says like, hey,
this thing is going to happen, and they nine times
out of ten are correct. And yeah, I remember with
the Bella Thorne thing, it caused another controversy because the
way she advertised, or that it insinuated that there was
going to be a lot of more like nudity and
or whatever she was promising seemed really bigger and more
(08:09):
grand than what was actually given, which cost the site
to crash essentially because so much request was coming for
the refunds that they were having to give back money
that they didn't have, to the point that it really
really affected the rest of the people who had only
fans account that was making a lot of making some
(08:29):
money and it was kind of disrupting their cash flow,
right or their income. That's exactly right. And so you know,
I think that a lot of folks who are involved
in sex work rightly have concerns that you know, when
someone like a Bella Thorne comes on and completely disrupts
the model that that they've been working with, that they
will be the ones who are harmed or impacted. And
(08:50):
we know sex workers are already marginalized, they're not necessarily
folks who hold a lot of power or when it
comes to even this conversations about the technology that they
use and of built kind of like made popular or
made relevant. And so you know, again we see that
Bella Thorne example that you just explained, like that's a
great example of what we're talking about. What happens when
(09:11):
something that sex workers built up and popularized is a
decision is made that completely further marginalizes them and de
centers them from something that they have already been sort
of like building up. Yeah, so why don't we talk
about this, this decision that only Fans made, this news
(09:33):
that they made that, Yeah, it is very impactful, um,
towards sex workers who have used the platform. So here's
what's going on. So last Thursday, Only Fans that it
would ban explicit content starting October one. They said, affective
October one, Only Fans will prohibit the posting of any
content containing sexually explicit conduct. In order to ensure the
(09:53):
long term sustainability of the platform and to continue to
host inclusive communities of creators and fans, we must evolve
our content guidelines. They also said that creators could still
continue to post content containing nudity as long as it
was consistent with their acceptable Use policy, and people were
like collectively, wtf right, because again, this has been a
(10:14):
platform that sex workers and adult content have pretty much
been the thing that only Fans was used for. So
then Only Fans clarified. They said basically that this was
not really their decision. It was payment processors like MasterCard
that process the payments of these creators on the platform
that we're making this decisions. So they said these changes
are to comply with the request of our banking partners
(10:36):
and pay out providers, and again there was this massive,
massive outcry from folks who were rightly really upset because,
you know, although content and sex worker content like that
is that was like the bread and butter of this platform.
So they have since changed course, tweeting we have secured
assurances necessary to support our diverse creator community and have
(10:57):
suspended our planned October first policy change. Only Fans stands
for inclusion and will continue to be a home for
all creators. And so it was kind of like a
grand opening, grand closing kind of situation where they made
this announcement and then they were like, oh, just kidding,
but don't get too excited, because this is definitely not
the end of the story, and I definitely want to
talk more about why sex workers are still very wary
(11:20):
about the platform, and like, what's going on with that
policy coming at this from someone who is you know, like,
I think I vaguely know what this is. I didn't
(11:42):
know it was used mostly for sexual content, but now
I'm wondering. I think I have seen some horror movies
that have only fans in it, because of course I have,
but I remember that clarification of like, nudity is allowed,
but only if it's like not sexual, and I was
already like that was raising my flag of like, I
can tell who this is going to feel, like we've
(12:02):
seen that time and time again of who is the
judge of what that means. But that being said, that
was one of the problems that people had with this
right is that it was pretty confusing and not really
clear what they were what these rules would have meant exactly,
So their policy wasn't very clear. They said that they
(12:23):
were going to be banning sexual explicit conduct, but you know,
that's pretty vague. They said that nudity is allowed, but
sexually explicit content isn't to like, what exactly does that mean?
And it basically really puts the burden on contact creators
to sort out what would or would not get them
potentially kicked off of this platform, for whom a lot
of sex workers this is a big part of their
(12:44):
financial livelihood and so leaving it to be that vague
where it's just like, well, you know, we're not going
to give you more feedback about what is and is
not allowed. But if you break the rule that we decide,
you could lose lose out on like money, you know,
and so that pretty messed up. Yeah, yeah, that would
just be so confusing. And also you'd be like, who
(13:05):
do I really ask about this? How far do I
want to push it? And then something else, as you
were talking about, when it comes to technology and policy, um,
sex workers have had to really adapt and one thing
also at play right now is the pandemic. When it
comes to adapting to new environments. Oh absolutely, you know,
(13:29):
sex work is work, and so just like any other worker,
during the pandemic, folks have had to make changes with
how they can work safely. And so only bands banning
adult content during a pandemic, which is removed another avenue
for sex workers to safely make money at a time,
and we know those avenues have already been disrupted due
to the pandemic. So it's just at a time when
(13:49):
they're already a lack of safe ways to do this work.
It's just taking away one more at a time when
folks are already really you know, suffering, right, So okay,
if only fans is known as being a space for
sex work in this sexual content, and as you said,
(14:10):
like they kind of back touched from like, well it
was the credit cards they were pushing us. I mean,
I mean, I get curious why they made this decision.
Oh yes, okay, So this is where things get a
little bit complicated. This, I mean, this whole topic is complex,
and I want to name that right up the bat.
I kind of went into researching this topic thinking it
(14:31):
was one thing, and then realizing I was incorrect and
it was quite another. So when I first heard about this,
I thought, oh, this has got to be the same
old story where a marginalized community help take a platform popular,
and then that platform just abandons that group when they
want to kind of go mainstream. We've seen that before
with Clubhouse, with Patreon, like that is a common thing.
(14:51):
And I really held that opinion until I did this research,
and the research really showed me that. You know, I'm
not gonna say there isn't some aspects of that happening here,
but the reality is these payment processors truly did cave
to coordinated pressure from religious groups, and so there might
be some aspect of you know, only fans wanting to
(15:14):
go more mainstream at play. The real reality is that
payment processors cave to pressure from religious groups. And so
that was something that was new for me that I
learned in researching this topic. I was like, Oh, I
didn't realize that there was this behind the scenes, coordinated
effort to pressure these payment processors into cutting ties with
the pornography industry. Yeah. That's interesting because I feel like
(15:36):
this isn't the first time when you bought a topic
that I wouldn't have guessed would have this sort of
angle or intersection, And then when when I learned it,
I'm not surprised, but it's kind of like, Wow, how
much power these groups have that and I'm not even
hearing about it. You know that they're pressuring only fans.
(15:57):
This kind of goes into the Q and on slash
h Yoga mom type of conversation about trafficking and trying
to decide what that is and who is the arbitrator
of it and who is to defend it, And it's
definitely along those lines that I've seen it time and
time again. When we you know, we did that whole
episode about sex trafficking and social media and TikTok and
all of that, and when we talked about this, this
(16:18):
is one more that gets into that bigger scope of
protect our children, protect our girls types of mentality. And
I've definitely heard of these groups going after what are
the bigger things, including platforms, although we do see it
on other platforms, but for some reason we know why
only fans is the current target and that's the one
that's making the big splash obviously. Oh absolutely, And and
(16:41):
really you bring up such a good point, which is
that we all know that trafficking is a horrible, horrendous crime, period,
end of sentence. However, when these groups conflate things that
are not trafficking, which is like a very specific thing
with trafficking, So when they conflate consensual sex were or
consensual pornography featuring adults, you know, when they conflate those
(17:05):
things with sex work, it's not just you know, a
problematic thing, like, yes, it is problematic, but it's more
than that. It can be used to really fuel public
policy and political heft. And so this is not just
a movement happening online. It is being used to fuel
specific legislation and specific policy. And so you know when
(17:26):
someone gets on TikTok and says I think I was
almost traffic because I found a piece of cheese on
my car or whatever. You know, that may seem like
not that big of a deal, but when you follow
that threat and say, and that kind of scaremongering about
trafficking and misinformation about trafficking is going to be used
to fuel actual legislation that criminalizes already marginalized communities, that's
(17:49):
when things get really concerning to me. And so like,
this is not just an internet problem. This is the
thing that's really resulting in policy being made in real life.
And and are to really focus on two groups who
are doing this for this episode, Exodus Cry and the
National Center on Sexual Exploitation formally called Morality in Media UM,
which is sort of an interesting a little rebrand there,
(18:12):
I'm sure, I'm sure you can pick up why they've
changed their name. Basically, these groups have been waging years
long campaigns against sites like only Fans and their ultimate
goal is to abolish the sex work industry entirely. And
you know, as you said, I mean, they do a
really great job of making themselves seem like their only
goal is to eradicate sex trafficking, which if that was
(18:33):
the case, that would be very admirable. You know, even
the name the National Center on Sexual Exploitation. You can
understand why they change their name from Morality and Media
to the National Center on Sexual Exploitation because that's a
that seems like a much more admirable goal than like,
we don't like pornography being you know, like so I
can see why they rebranded. But to be clear, these
(18:55):
are morality groups who have a history of trying to
ban pornography and things that they do anti moral. Right,
You're so right on how they whoever did this change,
kudos like they did a genius job in rebranding themselves.
Because morality is subjective. No one's gonna sit here and
say sexual exploitation is a subjective. It's fine, it's fine
(19:17):
only if it's fine this way. No one's gonna argue
with that, and then being so official like their actual
government entity. Come on, exactly. So a little bit of
history about these groups. So in the nineties, the National
Center on Sexual Exploitation attached the National Endowment of the
Arts for funding what it deemed obscene and profane are
(19:38):
in The group called for a whitecott of all Time
Warner products because of the publication of Madonna's Sex Book.
If you're old like me, maybe you know, maybe you
remember this book. I actually own it because I am
a Madonna's superfan, and I mean it's basically like it
would be so tame today. It's like softcore pornography featuring Madonna.
You know, it's it's really you know, not not that wild. Um.
(20:03):
This group also advocated that safe sex curriculums were indecent
and then Exodus Cry is an offshoot of the International
House of Prayer, which, fun fact, the International House of
Pancakes once a boiled a suit against them for having
the same acronym I have. They eventually removed that suit,
but this group at one point supported the Uganda law
(20:25):
that made gay sex a crime punishable by death. And
so you can really see these groups are not just
interested in cracking down on sex trafficking. You know, this
is clearly that that's not these groups only motivation. Can
I put a caveat here, say I actually know people
who were people a part of the eye of Crew,
the Pancakes or the Prayer. Not I would be the Pancakes,
(20:45):
they who were part of the Prayer because you know
people and the International House of pancakes. Let me tell
you do you do want to give a know? Uh
and it was very coldish. We'll just leave it at that.
I want to know so much more, have so many questions.
(21:08):
We'll get together. Okay this maybe this is more like
like after the pot. Yeah. So just based on that,
(21:32):
like quick history, you can tell that the saying sex
trafficking is not they're not being completely upfront and honest
with what they are actually all about. Oh. Absolutely, And
that's something that really, you know, bothers me because obviously
sex trafficking is horrible and so bad. And the fact
(21:54):
that they would use something that is so serious, such
a serious serious like ill and crime something in fact,
they would use that to bolster their like anti consensual
adult porn agenda. I think it is so disrespectful to
survivors of sex trafficking, right, Like, I really have a
problem with that. And so here's actually a really good
(22:16):
quote that I found from Wired magazine. For those like
Exodus Cry who believe that sexual content shouldn't be available
to broad audiences, there's an opportunity to leverage a real
concern of underage and non consensual content being posted to
porn sites to achieve broader, more drasticals such as just
banning pornography and sex work outright. And you know, I
(22:37):
think that survivors of sex work deserves so much better
than having groups pretend to be advocating for them and
then an actuality advocating for a completely different thing, right,
like consensual porn involving adults is a completely different thing
than sex trafficking. And the fact that these people would
(22:59):
conflate them and cause confusion and you know, you know,
create smoke screens in order to promote their anti pornographic agenda,
I think it's so disrespectful, right, and it is dangerous,
just outright dangerous, which is kind of their whole moo
is they don't see a solution. They just want to
get rid of something that they're uncomfortable with. And the
(23:20):
same thing for abortion, when we talk about what they do,
is they they again pro life and saying, you know,
you're killing babies, and they're just doing a general arc
to sound as most horrific as possible in order to
deem a person the bad guy. And so they want
to make this as evil as possible to push their agenda,
which is a whole different conversation in itself, and if
(23:42):
that means outright endangering people for the sake of their
own morality or what they think is moral, they're okay
with it, which is again that bigger conversation of no,
these only fans. Yes, there's always going to be someone
who takes advantage of the system, and there's always gonna
be bad people who are doing bad things everywhere. We
know this, this happens. But for those who are able
(24:03):
to make their own decisions, have autonomy in doing what
they feel is safe and still being able to make
money the best way they can. Why not why are
we like, why are we regulating? Why are we going
to chat and take that off because you're uncomfortable with it? Why? Oh?
I mean I think I I mean I completely agree,
and I think I have uh an answer, which is
(24:24):
that when folks are legislating things like this and trying
to crack down on things like this, there is always
some kind of a convenient scapegoat, right, And so when
folks are concerned about the safety of their kids, you
can say, like, oh, well, trans people in bathrooms, that
is the real threat to my kids. So I'm going
to crack down on that. Or trans youth being on
(24:46):
sports teams. I'm gonna crack down on that, or sex workers,
I'm gonna crack down on that, or immigrants. Right like,
when people are feeling afraid or like they don't have
control or they want to control the situation, that feels
like they don't really know where to start. And again,
sex trafficking is a something that we should be spending
(25:06):
resources to curb and crack down on, right like, absolutely,
But I think that in light of that feeling like
a you know, a tough a tough mountain to climb,
I think it's easier to be like, okay, well sex workers, Okay,
well pornography, you know, even if those things are not
actually the same. Even though even if sex like consensual
(25:27):
legal sex work and adult pornography are completely distinct things.
It just I think that for some people it feels
good to have a scapegoat, to be like, oh, we'll
crack down on this easy to pick on group of
already marginalized people, and we'll feel like we're accomplishing this
thing even if we're not right and you're right on
without the picking on, because when we actually have victims,
(25:49):
if they're not victimy enough, they dismiss it because that's
for so long we've had that term child prostitute or
underage prostitute, and still people use that term non acknowledging. No,
this is a This is that trafficking victim that you've
been looking for to protect. Why aren't you protecting them?
Is that you're making them the perpetrator. What is happening? Yes,
(26:11):
and in many states, you know, trafficking victims can be
jailed for being victims of trafficking. Like, the way that
we deal with survivors and victims in this country is appalling.
And if we say that we are truly invested in
cracking down on things like sex trafficking, we need to
completely overhaul not only how we legally deal with these people,
(26:34):
but also how we talk about them and think about them.
Because there's no such thing as an underage prostitute. That
you are involved in an exchange of sex for money
and you are not of age, you are a trafficking victim.
But that's just that's just the reality. And so you know,
we we even our language does not allow for a
more you know, nuanced empathetic understanding of the reality of
(26:54):
what's happening. And you know what, as an investigator, as
a for the longest and I've worked with the Department
Juvenal Justice and I've worked with trafficking victims. A majority
of the things that we found, again, this is before
only Fans existed, So I won't I won't say this,
but I know I got a chunk of information and
a chunk of things that would go back and forth,
and we would have stacks of papers and print dolls
(27:16):
from things like Facebook and not necessarily not even like
on Craislist or all these other sites that existed, but
typically it would come off of things like Instagram and facebooks.
And that's one of the biggest ways I know perpetrators
still go after people, but as it's kind of unassumed
that they wouldn't use this platform, right, So the research
completely backs this up. So these groups like Exodus CRY
(27:37):
in the National Center for Sexual Expectation, they maintain that
they want to shut down these platforms because they're hotbeds
of you know, sex trafficked miners being used in child pornography.
But we know that the majority of abused miners are
not appearing on sites like only Fans. They're appearing on
mainstream social media sites like you said Facebook. So according
to the data, Facebook, not Only Fans, is by far
(28:00):
the biggest offender when it comes to child sexual abuse content.
According to an independent study released earlier this year by
the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, mind Geek,
the parent company of corn Hub, which runs red Tube
and several other adult tube sites, accounted for thirteen thousand,
two hundred and twenty nine instances of what they deemed
child sexual abuse material, while Snapchat had a hundred and
(28:23):
forty four thousand, ninety five instances. Google had five hundred
forty six seven hundred and four instances. In Facebook topped
everybody with a whopping twenty point three million instances. Meanwhile,
Only Fans recently released its first transparency report and claimed
to have deactivated a total of fifteen accounts responsible for
child sexual abuse material. So we can see the main
(28:45):
offenders are not sites like only Fans, It's Facebook, It's
it's mainstream social media platforms by far, holy crab millions
compared to like hundreds of thousands. That's that is an absurd. Um.
That was mind blowing. Yes, um, And I think going
(29:08):
back to to what you've been talking about bridget One
of the most upsetting things about this to me is that, Yeah,
I feel like we're using victims of sex trafficking without
talking to them. We're just using them to And by we,
I mean society and specifically not us with these groups.
But yeah, we're we're like propping them up to you know,
(29:29):
do things and when to make ourselves feel better like politicians,
politicians and legislators aren't asking them, and we aren't asking
sex workers because I know this is something we talked
about when SESTA and FOSTA was up and it was
all about sex trafficking. But sex workers were like, no,
(29:51):
you're you're really not understanding what this is going to
do the impact of this, right, So you and I
did an episode of stuff I've never told you about
this back in that can listen to about SESTA and FOSTA.
So in this legislation about regulating the Internet um SESTA,
which stands for the Stop Enabling Sex Traffickers Act and FOSTA,
which stands for the Fight Online Sex Trafficking Act, was
(30:14):
ostensibly meant to crack down on sex trafficking, but actually
just further criminalized consensual sex work. And one of the
reasons why this is so upsetting is that advocates say
that cracking down on consensual sex work can actually harm
sex trafficking victims. Right, So one, it cuts off this
safer online avenue for sex workers to make money and
(30:34):
leaves them more vulnerable to like dangerous situations like trafficking.
So here's a good quote. Not having the online outlet
is going to hinder and harm a lot of people.
Online is much safer, particularly for trans and gender non
conforming folks. This is from La La Zannel, the a
c l used trans justice campaign manager who is doing
a lot of the work to lead decriminalization of sex
(30:55):
work campaigning. And then another aspect of this is that
sex workers truly do often act as a line of
defense for spotting and reporting sex trafficking because of the
nature of their work, they really know the signs. And
so if we're going to be criminalizing sex workers, we're
actually going to make everyone less safe because sex workers
are going to be much less likely to say, you know, hey,
(31:17):
I know what consensual sex work between adults looks like,
and what I'm seeing it right now is not it.
I need to report this. If sex workers are further criminalized,
they're gonna be much less likely to do that. Yeah,
And it's you know these groups that are saying like
we're just trying to stop sex trafficking and ultimately hurting
victims of sex trafficking even more, and just even funding
(31:39):
or attention, like multiple levels of it. And then recently
I saw a headline. I was surprised it didn't make
bigger news, but it was about porn Hub and porn
hub is being sued by several people who used it,
and they were claiming, you know, porn Hubb had been
engaged in all of this kind of like really dark,
(32:00):
messed up stuff, right. Oh yeah, So to be super clear,
earlier it was giving the stats of where content involving
abused miner shows up, and I said that Facebook was
by far the biggest defender when you compared things like
only fans or porn Hub. But I need to be
very clear, like, let's not get it twisted. I cannot
stress this enough. Porn Hub is a legitimately bad actor.
(32:22):
It is a hotbed of awful, abusive, not to mention
a legal sexual content. So I don't want to make
it seem like I'm downplaying how horrible that place is
because it true. They truly are a bad actor in
this space, which is why porn Hub was an early
target of these morality groups. So the history of this
is a little bit complicated, so I'll try to keep
(32:43):
it brief. The New York Times Nicholas Kristof published an
expose on porn Hub that found that many of the
videos there were of miners and non consensual sexual violence.
But the problem with this article is that his primary
source was a woman called Layla mickel Wade, and she
is the former director of Abolition of Exodus Scribe and
the founder of an anti porn hub campaign called Trafficking Hub.
(33:06):
And you know, we'll remember that Exodus cries their their
whole thing Exodus cry is to attack pornography under the
guise of fighting sex trafficking. And so this article did
a lot to legitimize cracking down on legal consensual pornography
made by adults as a means of cracking down on trafficking, which,
as we know, are two different things. And as a result,
(33:29):
back in December, MasterCard, Visa and Discover blocked their customers
from being able to make purchases on porn Hub. I
think now, if you want to make purchases on porn help.
You basically have to use like cryptocurrency like bitcoin, because
you can't use any of these major payment processors. And
sex worker Mary Moody told Dazed at its route, the
New York Times article is a religious anti porn groups propaganda.
(33:51):
It uses salacious anecdotes to tickle the puritanical subconscious of
the nation with its ultimate goal of censoring pornography. Um,
and you know, this is kind of like, for me,
one of those things where it's like even a stop
clock is right twice a day, where porn Hub is
legitimately a bad actor. And so I'm not exactly crying
any tears that they were, you know, pressured into breaking
(34:14):
ties with major financial processors. But I've actually seen a
lot of advocates say that cracking down on places like
porn Hub, while you know, well intentioned because porn Hub
is a bad actor, the consequences are actually more likely
to be felt by independent adult content creators who are
you know, following the law to create their content. And
so again it's a little bit of a complicated issue
(34:36):
because porn Hub, they truly are like a bad actor.
And I do not want to pretend that there anything,
but but it's just another one of those situations where
in the end the person who is feeling the consequences
are the independent creators who are like following the law.
And I think that's the whole complication of any of
(34:56):
this in general, that are always bad and good and
and it was set up to fail to begin with
with the fact that again, people who are looking to
make change aren't the people who have been in this
industry in any way whatsoever, and who those who have
actually done it safely and have done it in a
way that is consensual and you know everything that they
are the ones. They're not being talked to. Again, they're
(35:18):
being dismissed as if they are part of the problem.
As well as the fact that yeah, you're right, sometimes
they're right. Sometimes absolutely, there are all situations that yeah,
that you are correct here, revenge porn, porn hubs, use
of any video being just uploaded and being allowed because
people are mean, um in general. Sure, but yeah, that's
(35:40):
the thing is that they want to harp on that
and saying thing, this is the prime example of what
is wrong, instead of actually looking at the root cause
of what is happening. In the fact that we've felt
many of people in general, the fact that they like
they went down this road to the first place. We
don't know why, but I'm guaranteed because capitalism, you know,
it's all is capitalism, right, Like I don't care what
(36:02):
the problem is. Nine times in ten the reason for
it is capitalism. I have come. I have come to
see that very clearly. I don't know, I mean, this
(36:24):
is this is my opinion, but I think that in general,
we just have this attitude that certain people are quote
undesirable and it doesn't matter if they are, you know,
just making a living for themselves, following the law, like
a lot of sex workers, and I know they pay taxes,
they have accountants, they have like it is work. It
(36:47):
is not it is not some horrible immoral thing. And
this idea that like we don't even need to we
don't even need to talk to these people about the
work they engage in and how we can make it
safe burn and and you know, their concerns in the industry,
they're not even worth hearing. I think that that really
goes to this fundamental way that we really, we were
(37:10):
really comfortable to humanizing entire populations of marginalized communities, And
I think sex workers really is a great example of that.
You know, the fact that only fans didn't even feel
like they needed to consult sex workers before making this
change on their platform, that is a platform that is
almost entirely used by sex workers. What does that tell
(37:30):
you they didn't even feel the need to consult sex workers?
People have policy conversations that will dictate how they are
able to work and make money without even talking to them,
without and without even seeing them necessary to be talked
to you. But I think it really speaks to this
idea of like, who do we see as worthy and
who do we see as just not even human, not
(37:51):
even worth speaking to? Right? And I just love the
hypocrisy of the fact that, yeah, it's a growing, booming
industry and it has existed and continu us exist, and
it is being funded by these most likely by the
same individuals who are harping the loudest uh, And we're like,
are we ignoring that fact that there is a reason
why this industry is as successful as it is, So
(38:13):
let's talk about that and why you're seemingly ignoring that
part of this whole conversation. Oh yeah, absolutely, I mean listen,
even if you're not somebody who watches porn or like
is involved in sex work. It's part of our society.
It's not going away, you know, like it's been They
call it the oldest profession for a reason. It's not
going away. So we need to stop acting like legislating
(38:35):
pornography and sex work out of existence. It's like a
idea born out of reality, because it's just not. And
so instead we should be talking about how we make
things safer, how we can support sex workers, how we
can empower sex workers to act as a line of
defense against things like trafficking, rather than saying no, we're
just gonna try to act like it's reasonable to completely
(38:58):
get rid of this entire boo being billion dollar industry, right,
And I think in our like media saturated world, we're
really bad at nuance, and like headlines are very bad
often at communicating what all all the complexities nuances in
a conversation like this. So when you have these like
anti boreography groups being quoted and you know, reputable newspaper
(39:22):
and they are right in this instance, but they're right
for the wrong reasons, Like the reasons they're giving are incorrect,
but the ultimate place they arrive at is correct, but
we lost all of that complexity and nuance, and it
just muddies the whole situation and we're we're like, well,
of okay, I mean, I'm I'm I like to think
(39:43):
I'm a better I'm pretty savvy when it comes to
things like that, But I didn't know what only Fans was,
and I think a lot of people like it ends
there like, Okay, porn Hub is like only Fans. In
my mind, porn Hub was bad, therefore this one's probably
bad and that's the end. And you can feel good
about yourself because you feel like you're helping sex trafficking
or you've made a smart, informed decision. And so I
(40:05):
do think like things like that do make me really
angry because I feel like people, a lot of people
do have like they're coming from the right place. Like
obviously there's some bad actors coming from the wrong place,
but there are people who are and you know, they
read this thing and they're like, Okay, then that's how
it is, and you know, not taking the further steps
(40:27):
because they're busy or whatever it is. So it just
makes me mad that that's happening. And then you get
this only fans thing, which has been very confusing because
they sort of there was this huge outcry over it.
And honestly, if I hadn't, if we hadn't had this conversation,
I hadn't looked into it, I would have just thought,
(40:48):
like I would have thought it was another pornography website,
the way like Late Night Show post, we're talking about it,
and then only fans changes their minds. But that's I mean,
it's ongoing, right, oh, absolutely, And so even though only
bands backed off of the decision, this is definitely not
(41:10):
the end of the story. Right. So, first of all,
as somebody who does a lot of tech accountability work
and like a lot of like platform pressure work, tech
platforms are always very tricky with their announcements. So I
clocked right away that their official line was that they
were suspending their band on explicit content, right. And so
that was the same exact language that Facebook used when
(41:31):
they initially banned Trump, which sounded, you know, very finite,
but actually just left the door open for them to
revisit that decision just you know a few months down
the line. And so I would really like to know, like,
are they actually permanently backing off of this band forever
or you know, because the words suspend really couldn't mean
a lot of things. And I think it's why tech
(41:52):
companies in their official releases like to use that kind
of language, because you know, it really couldn't mean a
lot of things. And so I really want to know,
like more about their decision. Is it just for this
one payment processor that they were you know, capitulating to,
or and so look, if another payment processor wants to
(42:12):
pull our cut ties, they're gonna you know, go through
this again. Like I need more definitive information from Only
Fans before I start getting excited. And also the fact
that these religious groups have made it clear they have
no intention of giving up an exodus. Christ spokesperson she
tweeted that Twitter is going to be their next target.
And you know, even if you're not a sex worker
(42:34):
or not or not on Only Fans, you should be
concerned about the way that trafficking is being used to
drive crusades against how adults can use these platforms, because
all of us should be concerned about that. And again,
you know, sex workers have been raising the alarm about
this that when their communities are cracked down on are marginalized,
are you know, censored? Everybody should be concerned, and so
(42:57):
you know, these groups have made it clue that they're
even though I think they see this as we lost
this battle, but we had and lost the war. And
then lastly, you know, the damage is done. Sex workers
have rightly lost so much trust in this platform, and
many are looking for alternatives because that trust is just
so damaged. And you know, as I said, sex workers
are already marginalized, and we're already in a pandemic, like
(43:20):
everybody is having a hard time, especially folks who were
already marginalized. And so we know that sex work is work,
and sex workers do not deserve to have their livelihoods
be threatened like this, especially when they are the ones
who made only fans the platform that it is today.
There's this great quote in this great piece in Days
from a sex worker named Savannah. They say the proposed
(43:41):
ban is bull Only fans knows its site would be
nothing without sex workers, period, it would be nothing. I
wasn't surprised, but damn I was disappointed. This happens every
time sex workers build a new platform up. It happened
to Patreon and now only fans and it will happen
to whatever site we migrate to after this. They will
let us break our backs to build a platform, only
(44:02):
to spit in our faces and toss us out as
soon as they've made their money. And I think that
that quote really says it all, you know, And I
have to say one other thing, Annie, to your point
about you know why only fans backed off of this decision.
I think one it was because of the organizing power
and collective pressure of sex workers, because sex workers are
(44:24):
very powerful, and when they use their voices and speak up,
those voices are heard. Because sex workers, I mean, it's
it's a it's a powerful industry. So that's one. But too,
I also think it is folks learning from the porn
Hub situation and not letting groups like Exodus Cry really
set the tone right, and so not just taking in
(44:45):
these groups at face value that like, oh, well they
say they're an anti trafficking group, nothing to look into
their they are completely you know, there are a great
source to base this entire expose on that will go
on to shape the policies of how porn hub operates.
I think this time around, people were unwilling to just
allow for religious anti pornography groups to set the agenda
(45:07):
without any kind of push back. And so I think
making sure that all of us really have our kind
of like critical thinking ears on when folks are talking
about sex work, when sex work is being legislated and
sex workers are not part of the conversation, all of
our little smighty senses should tingle to be like, oh,
this might be something that is not as it seems. Yes,
(45:27):
I'm glad to hear you say that. That makes me
very happy because that when you when you were like, yeah,
they quoted this one person kind of anti foreign lady,
I was like, oh, no, it's not good. So I'm
glad that that it seems to be that seems to
be changing. Yeah. We should always all of us be
very ask where like news is coming from, and um,
(45:51):
just who who's behind it and the motives behind it
and the motives behind decisions like this and that being said,
are there things that we can do to help? I'm
so glad you asked. Absolutely. Um. The first is supporting
sex worker owned and operated collectives and spaces, and one
that I love is the Sex Worker Outreach Project Behind Bars.
(46:13):
We can find it at s w o P Behind
Bars dot org. It is a great or working on
the decriminalization of sex work, not further criminalizing it, and
it is fantastic. Um. And then also you might have
local options of organizations in your community that are really
supporting sex workers. Um. I live in d C. One
of my favorite organizations is HIPS. I love Hips. They're
(46:36):
a great organization that really focuses on harm reduction and
really just you know, their sex worker outreach is like,
what do you need? What can we get you? How
can we work make this work safer for you, better
for you? You know? And yeah, so do some digging
into organizations in your community that might be good places
to help support sex workers. Also, when policies about sex
(46:58):
work are being discussed, look to sex workers for insight.
You know. Even in putting together my research for this episode,
you know, I talked to sex workers. I've had articles
about sex work written by sex workers. I followed sex
workers on social media. And I really want to shout
out a few people who's writing and thinking kind of
helped me get a better understanding of this entire only
fan situation. First is Kathy resin Wits. Kathy is an
(47:20):
Only Fans creator and a writer who covers the intersection
of tech and sex work. You can find are writing
all over the web. It's super good and another is
Ashley Like the sex Worker Outreach Project Ashley's Twitter was
super helpful and mean just getting a better understanding of
the kind of attacks that sex workers face on a
regular basis and a general understanding of the only fan situation.
Ashley is actually promoting an online action for September one
(47:42):
to protest banking discrimination and the platform and stability that
sex workers often face. So check out Ashley's Twitter feed
and the hashtag acceptance matters for more information. And again
just recognize that sex workers often just by the nature
of the work that they do, have really interesting, smart, nuanced,
thoughtful takes on things tech and culture, so they're always
going to be a smart follow if you're looking to
(48:03):
learn more. Again, both amazing resources and yeah, just do
some work finding interesting voices of sex workers that you
can look to when things involving sex work is in
the news, so that you're not just taking somebody else's
word for it, you know, without actually listening to their voices.
Because again, sex workers have very interesting stuff to say
(48:26):
about technology and culture and also, of course sex work.
And then the last things I'll say are kind of
I guess sort of um self work, as as as
my therapist might say. So, the first part of this
kind of like internalizing self work is really recognizing that
sex workers don't need to be saved quote unquote. They
(48:47):
need support, they need resources, they need you know, they
don't they don't need someone to like you know, I
guess a lot of the way that people talk about
sex work is like, we're gonna save you from this lifestyle,
and that's not really what sex workers are looking for.
Sex workers are looking they need support, right, And so
disavowing yourself of that internalized notion that somebody who was
(49:10):
involved in sex work automatically is someone who you know
is looking to be saved, I think shutting the door
on that fiction was really helpful for me understanding sex
work in general. And then lastly, if you consider yourself
a feminist, really deeply include sex workers in your feminism
(49:30):
and in your analysis of feminism, you know, recognize it,
you know, if you've ever watched pornography, taken a pull
workout class, if you enjoyed the film Hustlers with Jennifer Lopez,
which I know I did. All of these things are
things that we have because of sex workers. And so
you know, even if you're not somebody who enjoys sex work,
all you only need to look around to see all
(49:51):
of the ways that sex workers and sex work have
defined and shaped our culture and that at the very least,
sex workers deserve support. And if you consider yourself a feminist,
I believe that it's essential to include sex workers in
your analysis of feminism. Totally agreed, So well said, and yeah,
I think it's it's another point that you make and
(50:13):
we make in in these segments and these episodes. A
lot is that kind of that critical thinking and just
ask yourself when you're enjoying it, like do a little
bit of research and where did this come from? And
who are the people that made it? And who are
the people that maybe got kicked off of it, and
like just really asking those questions because this is, I mean,
this is pretty that a platform, and it's happened before
(50:36):
several times. As you mentioned, it would be like okay,
we've attracted in heavy quotes like more classy audience, Now goodbye,
we don't need you anymore. Like that's terrible, yes, really, yeah, yeah,
So thank you for bringing this to our attention. It
is always such a delight to have these discussions with you,
(50:58):
and I feel much more because I was confused by
the whole thing, So thank you, thank you for having me.
I mean, it's a media subject, it's it's, it's and
again this was all all this information was accurate as
of today Friday, but it's an ongoing situation so this
could change, so keep an eye on it, you know. Yes, yeah,
we'll go in time stamp does. This is August one,
(51:21):
so if there's things can change. We have to do
this a lot because we're out of date typically within
a week. So thanks so quickly. So Bridget, where could
the good listeners find you? Well, you can listen to
my podcast on this very network called There Are No
Girls on the Internet, where we talk all about all
of these fun, media complex issues of the ways that
(51:43):
tech and culture and marginalized communities and feminism intersect. You
can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, or wherever
you get your podcast on. You can follow me on
social media. I'm at Bridget Marie on Twitter and Bridget
Murray in DC on Instagram. Yes, and definitely check out
all of those things can't wait to have you back, Bridget.
(52:04):
If you would like to emails, you can. Our email
is Stuff Media Mom, Stuff at I Hurt mea dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at most Stuff podcast
or on Instagram at Stuff I Never Told to You.
Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, Thank you,
and thanks to you for listening Stuff I Never Told
the direction of iHeart Radio. For more podcast on iHeart Radio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
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