Where are the women in hip-hop?

Since hip-hop was born in 1973, women have played important roles as emcees, b-girls and graffiti artists, but prominent female rappers have dwindled in recent years. Hip-hop journalist Christina Lee talks to Cristen and Caroline about where the women rappers are, the importance of Nicki Minaj, and hip-hop feminism.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you. From how Supports
dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline
and I'm Kristen, and today we're taking a look at
women in hip hop. We're gonna we're gonna take you
back and show you some of the pioneers in the

(00:24):
field of hip hop, and we're going to talk to
a very special guest about the state of women in
hip hop today. That's right. Since Caroline and I are
admittedly not hip hop aficionados, we have with us today
in the studio Christina Lee, who is a music journalist
who has been featured in Rolling Stone, dot com, MTV, BBC,

(00:48):
all sorts of really cool places. So, first of all, Christina,
thanks so much for coming on the show. Thanks for
having me. Um. So, first off, let's just give a
really brief synopsis of when hip hop started and just
named check a few of the pioneers. Yeah, so hip

(01:08):
hop culture was born in the nineteen seventies, and I
think it goes without saying that it's pretty much taken
over the globe since then. And actually we should point
out that November was hip Hop History Month, something that
I did not realize. Yeah, I didn't realize that either. Um.
And it was born supposedly on August eleven, ninety three,

(01:28):
and essentially a party that was happening. Um, Christina, do
you know anything about this? First, not to put you
on the spot, but do you know anything about this
birth of hip hop in nineteen seventy three? Well, basically
it was at a rec center party. It was just
a DJ, like you know, hovering over the turntables and
like scratching the record and that, like you know, that's

(01:49):
pretty much how it began. Um. And then from there
it's kind of morphed and reshaped and all sorts of things.
But yeah, it started out a party. Well in hip
hop culture, it should be noted also doesn't just in
fluid the music and what was going on at that party.
It also ranges from deejaying to break dancing, graffiti, spoken word,
urban fiction, and let's not forget street fashion too. Yeah,

(02:11):
And in this podcast, we're gonna focus more just on
that music, but it is yeah, worth remembering that this
is an entire culture that we're talking about. It's an
art form that goes beyond just scratching records. And from
the get go, there were women involved. Even though a
lot of times when you read about hip hop today,

(02:32):
I feel like if I had a dollar for every
time I saw the phrase a boy's club to describe it,
I would, Uh, well, I could you have several dollars?
I haven't. I have a number of dollars that I
could use to buy a hip hop record. Um. But
let's go back though, and just mentioned m c shah Rock,
who was the first woman to join an established all

(02:53):
male hip hop group called the Funky Four plus one More,
And yes she was the plus one more. Yeah, I
saw an interview or not saw an interview, read an
interview with mc shaw Rock, and she's very clear. She's
very clear about the fact that yes she was technically
the plus one more, but she is very aware of

(03:13):
her contribution to hip hop the not the whole landscape,
but also kind of ushering in more women in hip hop.
But then let's jump forward, okay, because that is when
a woman named rock Sanne Schante shows up on the
scene with something called a diss track. Uh. And it
was called rock Sand's Revenge and it was a response

(03:34):
to this group of U t fos song rock Sande,
Rock Sand And it not only put Roxanne Shante obviously
on the map in the hip hop world, but it
seems like it really put women in general on the
hip hop map for the first time because it was like, whoa, Okay,
she's not only coming out, she's coming out with a

(03:56):
diss and it's really good. She basically used her song
as a way to let these guys know that they
didn't deserve her. She was way better than them. And so,
as feminist to Jones over at Salon Rights, it's this
historic rap battle that's set the tone for women who

(04:16):
sought to enter the rap arena and compete with men.
So not just getting into the game, but also kind
of going head to head for attention, for for cred
basically yeah, and and just to do a quick hops
given a jump because Christina, we really want to talk
to you about the state of women in hip hop today. Um.

(04:38):
But from there we have, for instance, in nine six,
Salton Pepper come out with Hot, Cool and Vicious, which
is I mean, they they're really the first like all
female hip hop group to make it huge. And then
you have in the nineties names emerged like Little Kim
and Foxy Brown, and this is when you have that
shift happening to UM these female m c's and rappers

(05:01):
being really overt with their sexuality and this image or
the and this issue I should say, of the representations
not only of women in rap, but also of how
female mcs and female rappers represent themselves and their sexuality
is an issue that's often talked about. UM. But you

(05:22):
have all these names, especially I mean, like I said,
Little Kim, Foxy Brown, but you also have the Brat,
Missy Elliott Eve, all of these people, Lauren Hill. I
remember listening to the Education of Lauren Hill. Now I
listened to that. I think I wore holes in my
CD basically because I listened to it from the time
it came out to UM still now on my iPod. Yeah.

(05:42):
It was the first rap CD I owned, actually, yeah,
and it was and it was amazing, And thinking back
to when I was listening to it, I wish I
had known what I was listening to, you know what
I mean of, like how good and how significant it was.
And so we have all of these and I haven't
even mentioned all of them, but we have this legacy
of these really powerful and successful women in hip hop

(06:05):
who are doing new things and establishing this like new
image of this particular kind of like hip hop womanhood
in a way, and now I feel like in two
thousand and thirteen it's not so celebratory for women. I
don't know, So, Christina, could you just talk to us
first about sort of how you see the representation of

(06:30):
women in hip hop today? I realized that's a broad question. Sure,
I mean, um, Actually, when I thought about the representation,
I actually thought to a recent interview that Spike Lee
Different Entertainment Weekly about his old Boy reommake. Um. The
journalists have asked whether he was really excited about, you know,
films like Twelve Years of Slave and The Butler what

(06:53):
seemed like a renaissance of Black cinema, and Spike Lee
just kind of laughed him off and was like, this
happens once every decade. Once every ten years, somebody says
there's a renaissance in black cinema, and then for the
other nine years that gets completely ignored. And um, while
hip hop isn't nearly you know, obviously as old. I
feel like right now, particularly with last year, in the

(07:13):
year before, there's been that same sort of coverage where
it was just like like, for example, like the Atlantic
had to put out a piece that was like, no,
female rappers are not a novelty just because there are
a bunch of them around. Like the fact that that
argument had to be made was really sad. And then
um Terrey, who's the MSNBC correspondent but also has a
history of writing for Rolling Stone, had like this New

(07:35):
York Times piece about you know, the rise of the
white woman American rapper and was just like, well, they're
not going to completely rewrite the history that hip hop
has with black masculinity, but you know, they're they're there
and they're hanging out. Um, So I think that sort
of cover it says a lot about the representation and
that there's very little of it. Um, it's not really

(07:58):
being covered. And a lot the rappers who were being
celebrated last year, a lot of newcomers, um, they just
hadn't really put out music like Azalea Banks's album got
you know, delayed and delayed and delayed, and then in
the meantime, it just seems like we've I don't know,
lost track of everyone else that was sort of heralded
as the next best thing last year. So well, I

(08:20):
wonder too, like we can't hear enough, it seems about
white female pop stars. I mean, all the stories about
even still hearing about Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Katie Perry,
Taylor Swift, Miley Cyrus, and on and on and on,
and there's so much conversation around them. And I wonder
if the portrayal and roll of of like white women

(08:44):
and pop, how that's seen differently and covered differently than
women in hip hop. You know. Yeah, I think that
pop's relationship with hip hop has become really interesting and
that um, a lot of the pop stars that you've
mentioned had sort of taken to like having a pop
song on their album, like Lady Gaga had t I

(09:06):
Twisted and Too Short on her album. Katy Perry's only
guest was like Juicy J. Miley Cyrus obviously worked with
Mike Will, made it the Producer out of Here in
Atlanta and had him executive produce her album, not to
mention that she titled it Bangers. UM. So I do
sometimes wonder whether they're sort of taking towards hip hop

(09:27):
has created this new sort of standard for a female rapper,
and that honestly, it sort of seems like Nicki Minaj
and Katy Perry could have shared a wardrobe like a
couple of years ago. And um, and I wonder also
like whether the Brat or Missy Elliott for as much
of a hard time as they had coming out when
they did for not looking like little Kim, Um, how

(09:52):
much harder of a time they would have had now? Yeah, Well,
so speaking of artists like Missy Elliott, who you know,
maybe as you said, wouldn't be as successful if they
were trying to come out today. I mean, there is
the issue of falling record sales, people not going out
and buying as many records, and so the industry is
trying to push to the front these artists male or female,

(10:14):
who they know will make money. And so I'm wondering,
you know, artists like Nicki Minaj. It seems like she's
the only person that the mainstream media even talks about
when it comes to women in hip hop and black
female artists today. And so how do you think that
financial music industry element plays into it? Um? I think

(10:34):
with the music industry and having to to deal with
the climbing sales, um kind of, like you said, wants
to bet on the safest that's possible, and a lot
of times in hip hop that reduces down to um
dudes who want to go out in the club, and
then like females were willing to you know, play along
with all that. So I guess like, especially as of
right now, Nicki Minaj is kind of proven herself, especially

(10:57):
like with the releases of her albums, proven that she
has that crossover appeal, which is really crucial um to
hip hop in particular. I mean basically, like, I don't know,
this hypothetical question just runs through my mind over and
over again. It's like, in particular, seen a lot of
huge releases from these big names like Jay z on a,
Eminem Drake, all them being male or whatever, and especially now,

(11:23):
and especially since hip hop technically covers such a small
niche in terms of radio airplay. I don't know if
people realize that, but like when it's pitted against country
and it's pitted against pop, it's really is a much
smaller audience. Yeah, I wonder sometimes if hip hop just
kind of defaults to who they know and for whatever reason,
that tends to be male, because people associate, you know,

(11:44):
hip hop with male and hypermasculinity and so forth. Well,
I think it's interesting that um that you save that
hip hop, especially with radio play, is still so niche,
and that we are still seeing such a homogeneous presentation
label wise of having like those same names like I mean, Eminem, Drake,
j Z, etcetera. While it seems like hip hop is

(12:09):
what everybody now is listening to, like that's what the
kids kids with a Z, That's what kids are listening to,
you know what I mean, It's not so much we
were not getting so excited about like new country music
or pop, even though we hear about it all the time.
So I wonder why that would be where it's like
hip hop is reaching this like pinnacle point, being like

(12:32):
almost saturating not just the United States but also these
global markets, and yet we're still just being served the
same thing. I guess it's a reflection though too, of
just maybe entertainment more broadly. Yeah, I think, I think definitely.
I think when you have to talk about women and
hip hop, you do really have to pose those asto
questions about the industry and in mind because um, a

(12:54):
lot of country listeners still purchase the music and that's
really really crucial, whereas with hip pop, you it's it's
a mixtape you know, environment, and you get a lot
of the music for free and a lot of and
a lot of times it's like either tour or you
get that pop crossover record in order to really get
that substantial sort of income. Not all the time. There

(13:16):
are plenty of independent run labels, but that's like a
decade long investment as opposed to this sort of instant
success that a lot of pop stars received. So I
think that's a major reason why. I mean, I agree
with Kanye West as far as him saying that rap
is the new rock and roll. And every time I
go to shows like, I see audiences that are young,
and I believe that, you know, hip hop is that

(13:37):
youth culture that it is right now. It's just that
um people are taking in music a lot more differently
than they once did, and so UM like country like,
they're still getting in the dollars because people are still
willing to pay for it, whereas with hip hop it's
been free for quite a while that you sort of
have to work on top of that, and that becomes
really difficult to deal with for a lot of artists.

(13:57):
We mentioned touring, I mean, are there what are what
are the tour opportunities even like for female hip hop
artists as opposed to because I feel like so many
of the hip hop tours you hear about are those
really big names? I mean, are there who are some
of the female artists out there touring? I mean besides
from besides from Nicki Minaj. Honestly, and it's really sad

(14:18):
to say this, but I just haven't heard a lot
about them. The one experience that I've had maybe was
at a three C which is a hip hop fasketball
based here in Atlanta. UM, they had regional showcases and
the Chicago showcase actually was like a good portion of
female acts. Not only that, but I was like showing
up in line and there were dudes like running up

(14:38):
past me being like has this girl gone on yet
or whatever? So that was, UM, that's very unusual. That's
very unusual. Well, when it comes to criticism music criticism
of female rappers, have you noticed a different way that
they are maybe listen to or critique or they held
to a different standard than male rapper. Um, I think

(15:02):
that as far as being critiqued, it it becomes it
becomes very tricky, and it's um, it's kind of again,
it's kind of sad. That I keep having to default
to making manage. But honestly, she is like the biggest
example of what it's like to be a female in
hip hop right now. But it's like, when she released
her albums and she made this very deliberate step towards pop,

(15:28):
she was she received a critical backlash. She was like, well,
people were like, what are you doing? You're selling out.
You know that you can um do so much more.
You know that you can wrap the best out of
anybody here. Why are you going to sell out like that?
And the funny part of that is is that she's
basically sort of doing the same thing that a lot
of the most successful rappers are doing right now. I

(15:51):
think people tend to forget that. You know, jay Z
does a track with Maria Carey and like the o
B breaks out of the Atlanta rap scene by doing
a song with Bruno, mars My Well made a Collabrariores
with Miley Cyrus. It's just that, for the most part,
in hip hop, it seems as if the industry is
accepted that in order to make it, you have to
be a crossover star. That is just what you have

(16:13):
to do. But when it came to Nicki Minah. Suddenly
it became a gendered issue. Suddenly it became like, oh, well,
you just want to be one of them as opposed
to whole you're reaching your commercial potential. So that's the
biggest difference that I've seen. Um, maybe some smaller differences
include like Gazalea having to go to Hot Ninny seven

(16:34):
like with her label Boss t I, which like you know,
is a great idea, and I understand that he has
to be there, but I have also never seen that
sort of supervision with male rappers before. Well, and I
wonder too if there's so much scrutiny on Nicki Minaj
and so much criticism just directed at her because like
you say, she's it, so who else are they going to?

(16:57):
It's like she can't deflect onto any other or like
female artists and say, well look at what they're doing,
because she's really it seems like setting the standard right now. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
I mean it goes back to um, you know had
ninety seven Summer Jam from like last year where she
is the headliner, you know, and but at the same time,
you know, you had DJ Peter Rosenberg being like, I know,

(17:18):
you chicks are out there waiting to hear what starships
this sound like the yeah, there's nobody else who was
dealing with that right now, not that sort of critique.
Didn't she end up this might be a side note
and if I'm wrong, but didn't she end up just
canceling that and not showing Yeah, little little Wayne, Um,
she conferred with Little Wayne, and Little Wayne told her
don't do it because she had overheard exactly what happened.

(17:40):
And it led to this whole big feud where it's
like the DJs were saying, like, NICKI was wrong to
do that, And then finally it was like Nikki and
funk Master Reflex had to have like this lengthy length
they talk about what the motivations were behind the whole thing,
where Nikki is like, you can't critique me like that,

(18:00):
and then funk Masterflex is like, it's not because you're
a woman, Nikki, it's not because you're a woman. Well,
exactly the story that I was reading about that was like, yeah, that, well,
that's how the conversation was going. But if she were
not a woman, would he have been speaking to her
that way? Like because they were? The story I read
was basically saying if it were a little Wayne on
the phone, would the DJ have kept interrupting him, kept assisting,

(18:23):
kept yelling, you know, whereas he has this this female
artist on the phone and he's basically giving her the
what four Yeah, And she was even saying like throughout, like,
you know, you could have gotten little Wayne on the
phone to talk about this because it was his decision.
It wasn't like I went along with it because you know,
he's my boss, um. But and he and you know,
she was just repeating what she's kind of said in

(18:45):
like documentaries before, Whereas if you're a woman and you
speak up for yourself, you're automatically a bit. But if
you are a male and you're being assertive and you're
being a boss, and nobody like, you know, faults Donald
Trump for acting the same way that Martha Steward does,
you know. Yeah, And that, like Nicki minaj ism applies

(19:07):
to so many podcasts topics. Yeah, that we talked about, um,
But what about though in terms of we've talked about
the legitimacy of female rappers and legitimacy in quotes in
terms of how it's perceived by the industry, But what
about with female rap fans, because this is something that

(19:27):
I've noticed anecdotally among just with within music in general. Oftentimes,
if you are a female who likes a certain genre
of music, you're just called kind of written off as
a fangirl. Um. And there was recently though, when it
comes to rap, there was a complex magazine listical about

(19:48):
like ten signs that your girlfriend is listening to too
much rap basically just yeah, yeah, basically just taking down
all of like saying like, she likes Little Wayne, but
does she like it too much? And yeah, essentially just
criticizing women for for liking a liking wrap and saying

(20:10):
that they can't be legitimate fans and then if they
like it too much, then they're sort of violating their
their role. And especially from your perspective as someone who
has been in studios, you've been at shows, you've been
in this environment, have you noticed female fans just being
written off as just being groupies, girlfriends, not legit rap enthusiasts. Um.

(20:36):
I can't say that I've encountered that personally, because fortunately
a lot of the people in the industry, at least
in Atlanta, from what I've seen, are very respectable, very kind.
As soon as they say I'm a writer. I say
that I'm a writer, Like they're totally open to hearing
about things that I've done and what my perspectives are
on hip hop. I've had a lot of debates in studios,

(20:57):
which is amazing and wonderful. Um. I mean that being said, UM,
I do just see that sort of treatment more often
and shows than in anything else that hasn't really um
come from artists per se. But like, for example, I
went to UM a show a couple of days ago,
and uh, producer Michael made it. He's inviting like these

(21:21):
huge names to come and join him from like Project
pat to to Chains to t I two Jeezy. They're
all here to celebrate like this release that he is
coming out. And UM, for a second, it looked like
a post like the closest thing I've seen to this
post racial society that everyone keeps writing about. Like, I
look out on the crowd and there's black, there's whites,

(21:41):
there's more Asians at a show that I've seen in
a really long time. Um, there's a black and white
gay couple like right beside me, And I was like,
oh my god, this is so wonderful. The future is
going to be really terrific, and then they start pulling
female fans up into the crowd away from their boyfriends,
and immediately it's just like Miley Sayre said that ju

(22:01):
c j s where they just kind of turn around
and bend over and do their thing, and I'm like,
oh my god, this is never gonna go away. UM.
I mean that being said, I often find that just
in my personal experience, that like I have to air
towards the same towards the safe side, and that like
I have to talk about more extensively about you know, beats,

(22:24):
friends and lyrics and like, um and some of the
reasons why I may even be drawn to like surf
club songs, and like why songs for the ladies like
just aren't enough to like you know, get a woman
to feel like they're included and things like that. UM,
I do feel like I just have to, um explain
myself a lot more as far as like why I

(22:46):
why are like hip hop when it does seem like
a does seem like a boys club. I've even had
like a debate with um a fellow hip hop journalist
who was like talking about an X who was really
drawn to those same strip club songs and was like,
are you sure you really want to hear this or whatever?
And I'm just like, I guess what you have to
understand is that people like songs for the ladies. Like

(23:09):
we can't be summed up in one song. We're not
all like, we don't all like that same like slow
R and B breakdown or whatever, Like it's as cliche
as bringing like chocolates and flowers on Valentine's Day or whatever.
So yeah, yeah, I just think that there's a lot
more um explaining and rationale, and like I think like
a lot of male fans just have to understand that,
like you know, just like everybody else, y'all like music

(23:33):
for many different reasons, Like I like hip hop because
I like, um, I like all of its talk about money,
and I like how it makes me feel, and I like,
you know, just the beasts that runs the wordplay. Any
number of reasons, any number of factors. Do you have
to though every now and then sort of put blinders
on in a way, willfully ignore the naked women, have

(23:57):
naked women on stage and how they're talking not just
about their money, but also how women want them for
their money and like the money, like how do you
reconcile just personally those aspect those more problematic aspects of
hip hop culture that are not very respectful toward women
and are very objectifying of women, Because this is something

(24:20):
anytime you read about hip hop and women and feminism,
it always circles back to that portrayal of women as
just being sex objects essentially. Um. I think, I think
when it comes to that sort of reconciliation, I do
have to be um, really careful. UM. I say that

(24:41):
because a lot of the problems that we had what's
working this past year stems from just this one point
of view about what working actually means. Um. Pitchfork put
up this great article by writer Puja Btel. She visits
New Orleans and it's this red Bull event that has
like many fresh and like Big frieda like New Orleans,

(25:02):
you know, is the home a bounce music and we're
working sense from Okay. So you know, she's on the
ground and she's like asking them, like, you know, what
do you make of this national sensation that working is
now like twenty years later? And Um, the basis the
basis of their argument was like you know, like it
is really interesting that the nation's basically sexualize this form

(25:27):
of dancing way more than we intended, Like we just
look at it as like fun like recreation. You can
see a four year old do it. The grandma's going
to teach her how. But it's funny how the rest
of the nation sort of interprets it as this one thing.
It's like that, like she's only meant to provoke or
like ask for sex. So um, when I'm considering how

(25:49):
a male rapper talks about women and money, like I
really do have to sort of take everything in and
consider what that all means. Like a lot of hip
hop is about these origin stories where people came from
the fact that they quote started from the bottom or whatever,
and um, I also have to consider that, you know,

(26:10):
for one, like a Hugh Heffner ideal to these people
who grew up in the projects is going to mean
so much more than to somebody who grew up in
a middle class, buttoned up upbringing, you know what I mean.
So I do deal with it on a case by pace,
case basis, and more often than not, I feel like
I could sort of be okay with it. Doesn't go

(26:32):
for every rapper basically, but I take a lot of
that into consideration, and maybe I take it in more
into consideration because I'm a female, because I'm trying to
sort of maybe reconcile with myself, like, Okay, why am
I drawn to this like and and all that good stuff? Yeah,
and the thing is too hip hop is certainly not
alone in terms of musical genres with problematic relationships with women,

(26:55):
and yet I feel like it gets more scrutiny than
any other type. But even if you go back, sometimes
I'll be listening to the radio to like an all
these stations just pay attention to the lyrics and think
gets creepy even and just like really simple radio, even
even Christmas music. Maybe it's cold outside, like that's a
date rape song, right, So yeah, yeah, it gets it

(27:18):
gets weird all around. Okay, Well, speaking of that relationship
that hip hop has with women and vice versa, do
you think a that hip hop will ever kind of
distance itself from that objectification and be does it need to? Um?
It honestly depends on how the music industry um fares

(27:39):
over the next couple of years, because in history, it's
in hip hop's history. Rather, the songs that have always
sold the best have always been the ones about injectifying
women in some way, shape or form. If not interpreted
as such, this dates all the way back over to
like from like the two Live group, but then you
can trace it from Juvenile to jay Z like if
you look like those are the biggest selling songs. So

(28:03):
for as long as the music industry maybe looking for
ways to make money, I'm not a percent sure about that, um,
whether it needs to UM that. I just have a
really tough time answering, because again, I really try to
look at it as like an individual on basis like
like what does this all mean want? Like what does

(28:24):
it mean for somebody to want a gaggle of you know,
women ready for the v I P Section? You know
what I mean? Maybe that's giving people, um a little
bit more credit than they deserve. Um. But at the
same time, I think basically what I'm pining for, honestly
is just a more well rounded UM sort of landscape

(28:46):
where you can you can have like juicy j bands
and maker dance, but you could also have like if
Outcast comes back, that would be wonderful because like throughout
their entire discography, I mean, they get angry at women,
and they pine for women and all that other stuff,
but they're just overall just like exploring their relationship, um
with women, and sometimes that has an uglier moment, but

(29:09):
I mean overall, it's it's a more human perspective, I guess,
And so, um, I think more voices is more important
perhaps than distancing itself from like the sexual objectification, and
so maybe then everybody else who's listening to hip hop
and taking it all in could have that same well
rounded perspective of what the genre has to offer. I

(29:32):
wonder though, I mean, you're talking about how it'll probably
largely depend on the direction that the music industry is going,
and it it doesn't seem like people are wanting to
buy records more than they used to, you know. Um, well,
you mentioned that that it will largely depend on the
direction of the music industry, and it seems like there

(29:52):
has not been a radical change to where younger kids
suddenly want to spend their allowances on buying CDs and records,
so that that is probably going to still say the
same where it's where it's a challenge to sell actual music,
and so as a result, as we've talked about earlier,
we're getting this very homogenized almost recycled list of male

(30:15):
rappers that were seeing over and never again. So what
would it take do you think to provide that kind
of diversity that you would like to see more of? UM?
I actually think that the direction that it's heating right
now is really promising. UM. Along with this year for
for there being such a lack of female voices, there

(30:36):
was also this really UM exciting trend where suddenly lyricism
became the priority. Not that it always has to be,
but you know, when you when you focus on lyrics,
you by default have to focus more on like the
storytelling aspects of it all. And so UM, what I'm
seeing a lot of you know, in relation to that
is that UM, there are more actions touring in general,

(30:58):
and that becomes especially important for independent artists UM, and
especially those who pre zent a different point of view
than what radio might be UM might be selling. UM.
The greatest example is probably being like Chance the Rapper,
but also UM killer Mike out if here in Atlanta
and all the stuff that he's done with UM LPH
through Run the Jewels. UM. They're touring and people are

(31:21):
paying for that. Young people are paying for that. So
if it does continue in that sort of direction we're
touring becomes you know, a bigger money maker than maybe
these these records in itself than um, you know, maybe
maybe we will start to see the sort of changes
that I want. Well, So as far as people who
are women in particular, who are in the hip hop

(31:44):
world right now, who are some of your favorites, I mean,
who's who's promising an up and coming that you're excited about?
And who are some more established artists that you think
that people need to be more aware of. Um. As
far as newer artists, I admit I definitely need to
be better at versed and that. Um. But um, going
back to what I was talking about with a three
C like again, the most exciting show that I saw

(32:06):
was a buy a girl named Katie got fans. She
was doing a Chicago showcase. And she is not the
most lyrical person out there. Um. She seems to be
influenced a lot by Waka Flaga Flame like who I
always compared to Andrew w K so um, but it
was so exhilarating just to see her, um see her
perform because she was totally mobbed up on stage and

(32:28):
as a result, the crowd became like a way, like
literally everyone was like jumping up and down. I was like,
I don't think I've seen anyone period like excite people
the way that she did. Um, So that made me
really really stoked. Um, as far as you know, more established, like,
I'm actually really really huge fan of Dicki Minaj because

(32:48):
of just how deliberately weird that she can be like
she like when she's, you know, trying to cross over
into pop, she's not even just like dipping her toes
into it as most male rappers would. She basically goes
all the way. And then when she rapped, she commits
to it, and I just and I just love that. Um.

(33:09):
And then in general, like Lauren Hill and Missy Elliott,
like Missy Ellatt was supposed to release an album last
year and she didn't, and it made me really really
sad because she's literally the sole reason why I tried
to pull off track suits in middle school. I tried,
and it did not work. It did not work. Um.

(33:29):
And in addition to that, I appreciate her all the
more as an adult because, um, like she she dressed
as a quote unquote tomboy. She dresses run DMC used
to but at the same time, she owned her sexuality,
she was not afraid to ask for what she wanted.
Um So, well, one thing, one name we haven't mentioned.
I mean, speaking about the way that an artist dresses,

(33:51):
what's your take on Janelle Monet from here in Atlanta.
I love the way that Janelle mone A dresses, and
I love the way that she's also sort of like
toyed with it because I just think it's really um
interesting how people made so many assumptions of her initially
based on how she dressed. It was really interesting to

(34:12):
see her walking a tuxedo and then look online to see,
um all these questions about whether she was a lesbian
or not, as if sexuality was as black and white
as their uniform. Um so, I'm a huge fan of
that for sure. Yeah. Well, speaking of Missy Elliott inspiring
you in middle school to try to pull up track suits,
which is amazing. We should have asked you this earlier

(34:35):
in the podcast. What sparked your desire to want to
get into hip hop journalism specifically? Well, it kind of
happened on accident, be totally honest. It really just happened
from when I moved here to Atlanta, a city where
you know, the industry runs rampant, So there's that, but um,

(34:58):
I guess more important me my my love of Like
I felt comfortable enough going into hip hop journalism because
I've been a land of hip hop for so long
and I think I take to it the way that
a lot of the youth takes to it now, and
that it's just a part of culture, pop culture, like
mainstream culture, independent culture, like it's everywhere, And um, I

(35:21):
just had very specific memories of growing up in a
Maryland suburb but then watching MTB two because I was
out there trying to look for something that I wasn't
finding anywhere else. And at the same time, I just
remember taking to jay z Is the Black album, not
even because like I'm a business mogul, not because I

(35:41):
was anywhere near retirement, but because he was telling these
stories about how he grew up without a father and
being a child to divorced parents. I could percent relate
to that. So I guess, like, going into the journalism aspect,
I knew that, you know, a lot of my favorite
people or humans just like I were, and then from

(36:02):
there on out, it's been Um, I haven't felt like
discourage enough to step away from that by any means. Well,
I feel like we've kind of gone around this issue
and we haven't touched on it directly yet. Um, but
what do you think what's the intersection between hip hop
and feminism and and do you think feminism informs the

(36:24):
work of a lot of female artists out there or
do you think it's something that's kind of lacking. Yeah,
because for listeners who might not know, in the late nineties,
the term hip hop feminism was coined because of this
idea that these incredible strong rappers like Mr Elliott, Eve, etcetera,

(36:45):
we're standing up and oh and like with rock Sand's
Revenge of turning down the advances of men and kind
of setting their own terms for things. Is Yeah, it
is rapid at all informed by feminism. Um. I think
that hip hops had too sort of debate over that
for a really long time. And it's just like just

(37:06):
like with a lot of pop stars right now, who like,
for some reason over the past year, have had to
clarify whether they're feminists, whether they're not feminists and not
show the clearest grasp but what that means per se, Like,
I feel like rappers have to deal with that a lot,
and I feel like the ways that it's manifested is
so interesting because suddenly it always becomes a question of

(37:31):
how much do you play up your sexuality? Like the
It's it's very tricky because you had you had rappers
like Trina who displayed and owned her sexuality because she
was very much inspired by Milly Jackson who was not
afraid to make records about sex and wanting sex and
craving sex. But then you also have that, but then

(37:52):
there's also those same sort of pressures and they you know,
happen upon people that aren't as comfortable with that or whatever.
So it's, um, yeah, I feel like they've enter, like
it intersects, but in a way that just makes us

(38:13):
crave it all the more because it is sort of
a rarity, kind of what I was mentioning before with
with Outcasts. Actually, um, Melissa Rosenberg, I think Progress, wrote
a really great article about why she's looking forward to
the Outcasts reunion being a feminist hip hop band, and
it was going back to what I was saying before.
It was just that they these women were actual, like

(38:34):
three D characters in their wraps as opposed to being
mirror accessories. You know, um, not just saying that, like
in the words of Dr dre Ches, ain't but hos
in tricks. So um yeah, um, it's intersected before um,
but it's just right now like it's I think, like

(38:54):
with all with pop in general, we're still trying to
get a firm graph and tell everybody like, this is
what feminism means. It's okay, it's going to be fine. Well,
and I think to have someone like Nicki Minaj, even
though she is the name that comes up over and
over and over again because she really is the one

(39:16):
female powerhouse out there in hip hop, but at least
she is the one talking about how the fact of
the matter is is that if you are being an
outspoken powerful woman as she is, that you are criticized,
whereas if you're Little Wayne or j Z and calling
the shots and you're just a boss right right, Thank
goodness for her. Like there's this YouTube video that's eight

(39:38):
minutes long and it's called, um, I believe it's called
Dickie Manaj Feminist icon and um after this year, not
dealing with any personal interactions, would say, but just like
kind of taking in music in general and especially mainstream
pep hop, where I felt like it was it was
tough to be a female hip hop fan. Like I

(39:58):
would watch that video just like over and over and
over again, like, oh, thank god you're here. UM. I
point in particular to um this verse that Rick Ross
had said, and like that Rocco song you Oly, you
don't know you guys know what I'm talking about. Yeah,
where Um he says he puts a molly in her
champagne and things like that. UM, so kind of hearing

(40:19):
that everywhere. Um. Just even though Rebok dropped him from
his endorsement deal, and even though Rappers filed into the
studio to basically record a new version of the song
that omitted his verse, UM, I still heard it. And UM,
thank goodness for that YouTube video. Well, Christina, thank you

(40:43):
so much for coming on the show. Is there anything
about women hip hop culture, rappers, MC's break dancers, graffiti, etcetera.
That we didn't ask you about? Any any parting words
for our audience? Um, the relationship between women and hip hop.

(41:03):
I think that in general, UM, hip hop and the
industry that powers it just sort of needs to keep
in mind that women are more complicated beings then the
most people make us out to be UM, it is
tough working in genres that in which male perspective is
the default, and maybe where it's also just a reflection

(41:23):
of like pop culture in general. UM, But more often
than not, what the majority of the country is hearing
is just this idea again that females are these accessories
or they only like this thing, and they're only like
that thing, and they're completely not looking out towards the crowd.
Seeing that females dance is the quote unquote strip club

(41:45):
song is just because they sound way more fun. So
I think those are I think that is something that
I would want to emphasize that, you know, there are
females that don't want to be sexualized and there are
females who want to own their sexuality well, and it
sounds like in the same way that the industry needs
to recognize that women are more complex than just being

(42:07):
hose and tricks, is that we as the listening public
also needs to recognize that hip hop and hip hop
culturing where that comes from is more complex than just
you know, people who are wanting to go to a
strip club and meet you in the v I P
Room and then that's it, and that's and that it's
all bad. Absolutely, yeah, we definitely need to, Um, we

(42:28):
definitely need to you know, revisit some of hip hop
history and see the ways that mainstream hip hop like
even like it's funny. How Um, when we talk about
hip hop, we talk about this really problematic history that
has with misogyny and sexism and things like that. Um.
But I was on a juvenile music video watching binge,

(42:50):
like a couple of weeks ago, and I was watching
like all from all the way to the beginning over
to slow motion, and I thought I was setting myself
up for trouble. I guess because I just haven't heard
back that us up since high school maybe. Um. But
something that just struck me more than anything else was
that the women that he featured in these videos, whether

(43:12):
they were facing the camera or not facing the camera,
was that he looked as if he pulled them directly
off the street, Like they were in jeans and T
shirts and sun dresses, paired in sneakers, and they weren't
made up, and they were just there. They were there,
just doing their thing. And it struck me because when

(43:32):
I watched music videos now, or I watched music videos,
depictions of hip hop music videos now, like I just
see this one doll the v I P club Ready
image or whatever, so I think it. I think juvenile
was in the right well to wrap it up. Uh Um.

(43:53):
We want to hear from our listeners now, any hip
hop and rap fans out there, let us know what
you think about our discussion with Christina the hip Hop
Journalist extraordinaire. Yeah, and if you have any favorite female
rappers or hip hop artists, etcetera that we did not
name check, definitely let us know as well, because we

(44:14):
need more names. I feel like we need more recommendations
of women to listen to because women have rhymes, we've
got beats. I mean I don't personally, but yes, I
admit that other women do. I yeah. My dream talent
is to be able to freestyle, and I tried every
now and then, and I can't even snap in time

(44:36):
with music or tap my foot, so I don't know.
I always start out with my name is Kristen, and
I'm here to say and then I got nothing to say.
So if you also have any suggestions for sweet rhymes
for me, email us. Mom Stuff at Discovery dot com
is where you can send your letters. You can also
tweet us at mom Stuff podcast and find us on

(44:58):
Facebook messages they like us while you're at it, and
we've got a few messages to share with you when
we come right back from a quick break and now
back to our letters. Well, I've been an email here
from Jillian about our episode on whether women apologize more
than men, and like me, she tends to be overly apologetic.

(45:20):
She writes, I noticed this about myself a couple of
years ago and have made a conscious effort to try
and stop myself, unless, of course, I really need to apologize.
One thing that happens to me a lot is that
I'm a really fast walker, probably because I'm sure and
most people are much taller than me and I need
to keep up. Also, probably because I've been a distance
runner for sixteen years, and further because I'm a Bostonian

(45:42):
and stereotypically I'm always on the go anyway. I find
myself turning corners fast or walking quickly through the halls
of my hospital on my way to meetings, and I
have several close call collisions. So I found myself always
saying sorry when I ran into people, and noticed it
more often than not because when I ran into men,
I never got a sorry back, but when I ran
into women, we were both sorry each other to death.

(46:05):
So I consciously decided to say something different. Now, when
I run into someone, I say whoops and give a
big smile, and find that with women it's a similar
nonverbal exchange. And for men who don't normally say they're
sorry when they run into me, I feel less overly apologetic,
but still conscious that I almost ran into them. So

(46:25):
thanks for that, Jillian, and I know what she's talking about.
I have the close calls as well, and I do apologize.
I do say I'm sorry, I say excuse me, and
giggle nervously in turn red and then keep walking. It's
a whole scenario. Do a Jillian just say whoops, whoops, whoops,
and then throw my hands in the air and do
a little jig. Yes anyway, Um, I have a letter

(46:45):
here from Mariah. She was writing in in response to
our pants and Skirt episode The History of Pants, and
it sounds like, Kristen, you and I mispronounced a couple
of things and she wanted to clarify as well as
give us some definitions. Yeah, because what we've mispronounced I
relieve was some Old English. Yeah, so how did we

(47:06):
ever mispronounce that? I don't know. Um anyway, Mariah says,
you mentioned the Old English word, and I'm going to
pronounce it the way we pronounced it or mispronounced it, skirt.
You said that this is where our modern skirt comes from.
In Old English, the sc combination sounds like our s h.
In other words, the Old English word skirt or shirt

(47:30):
actually refers to the word shirt. Are you following, somebody
following from filling um? Well, she says, in Old English,
a shirt pronounced shirta. Okay, sorry, So in Old English
a shirta referred to a tunic. Shirt and skirt absolutely
have the same etymological history. However, your use of shirta

(47:52):
to refer to skirts kept throwing me off every time
I heard it. By the way, Old Norse, Old English,
and Anglo Saxon have an absolutely fat sinating history, and
I highly recommend a little bit of just for fun research.
And yeah, I think we mentioned that, okamily, sure to.
I think we mentioned that that was like a long
tunic because I remember making a joke about how it

(48:13):
made me think of Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
The peasants by the side of the road in the mud,
so we were Yes, I'm very sorry that we mispronounced
shirt to hey, don't apologize. Oh you're right. Whoops, whoops,
there we go. Thank you, Jillian, and thanks to everybody
who has written in mom Stuff at Discovery dot com
is where you can send your letters. You can also

(48:34):
follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast and find
us on Facebook as well, and you can keep up
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Never told You in tumbler stuff mom Never Told You
dot tumbler dot com. And as always, we have so
many videos for your viewing pleasure over at YouTube, so
you should check out our channel. It's YouTube dot com,
slash stuff mom Never Told You, and don't forget to subscribe.

(49:00):
For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit
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