December 14, 2018 • 48 mins
Beth Newell, the co-founder of Reductress, shares the funny and not so funny of being a woman in comedy.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mom
never told you. Today, we're joined by a guest co host,
and I'm very excited about Beth Newell. She is the
(00:26):
co host of the podcast We Knows Parenting. She's also
the creator, co founder, and editor of Reductress, which Wired
calls the most brutally truthful comedy site out there. Thank
you so much for joining us, Bet, thanks for having me.
Could you tell the good listeners out there about yourself
and about your podcast? Sure? I am trained as a
(00:50):
sketch and improv comedian. In two thirteen, I launched the
website Reductress, which is a satirical news or sorry, a
satirical women's magazine website. Sorry, I haven't had to explain
that in a while. Um. I have a podcast with
my husband called We Knows Parenting. It's just two comedian
parents kind of riffing on parenting with no good expert advice. Excellent.
(01:17):
And you pitched an episode on women in Comedy and
do you have over a decade of experience in the
New York comedy Senior. Yeah, that's right. I started out
doing improv and then slowly moved over to sketch and
then reductress. I um, I've done some improv, but I
(01:39):
am more into the acting side of things. And I
actually was so afraid of doing comedy that for my final,
I mean, this was like a I'm talking about it
as if I did in college. It was just like
a class I took outside of work. It was sort
of structured like a class would be. And from my final,
like I had done, I'd finished the course. It was
(02:01):
the last class. My professor gave me two things. He
terrified me, comedy and an accent. I like to think
I did Okay. Yeah, I was also terrified when I
started doing improv. I was not a performer prior to that,
so I just the act of like saying words in
front of people was terrifying, and I would I would
(02:24):
show up to all my classes like shaking. Yeah, oh
I would too. I remember I would get to class
early because it's kind of a hike from where I worked,
so the traffic is really bad and the only way
to get around that was to leave really really early
and then just wait outside the class. So I had
like this thirty minute period where I'd be waiting for
class to start. I'm getting more and more nervous. That's
(02:48):
exactly what would happen to me, because I came in
from Brooklyn and I didn't want to be late, so
I would be like a half hour early, and then
i'd like get a cup of coffee. That made me
even more anxious. Yeah, and yet here we are, here
we are talking on podcasts. Yeah, it's actually interesting to
(03:08):
me how many podcasters I know that are nervous about
performing and speaking in front of people and that is
their career. Yeah, there's something nice about being like behind
the screen or you know, not. When never see myself
on video, I panic, right, And I do think there
is something about sort of playing a character that's not
(03:30):
really what we're doing. But you you, you exaggerate parts
of your personality. Um, and I find something about that comforting.
Mm hmm. But today we're gonna focus on on women
in comedy, and I thought that you would be a
perfect person to to speak to this because, as I said,
(03:51):
I really don't have any experience apart from like this
one improv class and then that that final where I
remember the monologue. It was about a third four year
old Brooklyn woman who hadn't lost her virginity anyway, um, so,
if we take a look at the state of the
union for women in comedy, Historically, women have been kept
(04:12):
out of the comedy sphere. It was seen as improper
or unladylike, and people who booked comedians who were and
are mostly men, followed the rules of the club like, um,
only one woman in a set, never two women back
to back, separating female comedians for an all are mostly
female audience, and this kept women from getting in front
(04:33):
of the producers, who again were mostly men, that could
help them take that next step in their career. And
the timeline of the female comedian in many ways mirrors
the timelines of feminism. The first surge of female comedians
took place in the seventies and eighties, as more women
were entering the workforce. And yet when people ask Tina Fey,
(04:58):
for example, um, isn't this an amazing time for women
in comedy, she replied, it's a terrible time. The boys
are still getting more money for garbage while the ladies
are hustling and doing amazing work for less. Um, have
you experienced any sexism in your time as a comedian?
I mean yes, but it's so hard to illustrate it.
(05:22):
To people who haven't experienced it. I think because it's
these days, I think it's often so subtle. It's not
like someone you know calling you abroad or something. It's
like you're just like your ideas are overlooked. And that's
part of the inspiration for your actress is that when
Sarah and I started doing uh Sketch comedy at a theater,
(05:43):
it was we were often one of the only women
in the room or one of two women in the room.
And I started doing these workshops to get more women
involved in the program, and in doing so, I realized
that the women in the room were laughing at each
other's jokes so much more than I ever would have
experienced in other rooms because men don't always get the
reference points, and when they don't, they just assume you're
(06:05):
not funny instead of assuming that they don't understand something.
Of course, Yeah, I read a lot of um accounts
of female comedians being turned down because there already was
a female comedian in the lineup, or the m C
if there were women in the lineup, playing up that
and being like, oh, lady, get ready, she's about to perform.
(06:27):
And I've never watched the marvelous miss MASL. But I
do know that that happens in the commercial, and I
think it's funny because even as we're starting to do
better with diversity, and I mean by better, I mean
like a little bit better, I think people's attempts to
do that are often sort of for them to get
(06:48):
like points instead of what the actual purposes of diversity
would be, which is to increase the like different kinds
of voices you have in the room. So again, when
you're one the only black person in the room, or
the only woman in the room, or even when you
have like two or three women in the room, it's
still you're still often expected not to really speak to
(07:09):
the things you care about and to sort of go
with the flow of the people in charge, because we
still rarely have women in charge in those situations. Um,
we have, you know, some women on camera, but it's
rare with movies and TV that we have women head
writers and women directors and the people who actually control
what's happening. Yeah, and if we look at some numbers, um,
(07:37):
men are two point six times more likely to play
the funny one when compared to women. Amy Schumer is
the only female comedian to rank in Forbes magazine and
the first to headlines show at Madison Square Garden. And
there seems to be this belief um that women do
women's comedy and therefore is niche kind of like what
(07:59):
you're you're talking about just a second ago. It's so
funny because I've brought up Productress to people who ask
what I do for a living or you know, why
there's a group of women congregating somewhere that men will
be very curious when women are congregating, And when I
explain what Productress is, I've literally had men' tell me, oh,
that's niche. And it's so funny because we're more than
(08:24):
fifty percent of the population and men have no problem
doing like Batman everything, like that's not necessarily like everyone's interests,
you know what I mean. But they have no problem
channeling their own niche interests into media, you know, like
they'll have like a Game of Thrones after the show shows,
(08:46):
you know what I mean. Like it's just like such
specific stuff that they're allowed to do, and we still
haven't been allowed to tell I think some of the
most basic stories of our existence. Yeah, and I think
a lot of us have heard the whole stereotype that
women aren't funny. There have been studies about this, of
course there have, and the short version is men are
(09:09):
more willing to take risk and more confident in their
funniness whether they are are not, but they aren't funnier um.
Men are also likelier to include humor when prompted to
write free form. One study conducted in where a group
of undergrads were tasked with captioning and cartoon men, on
average rated themselves at like two point three on a
(09:32):
scale of funniness um, one being the least funny and
five being the most funny, and women gave themselves a
one point five of the male participants believed men in
general were funnier of women. Agreed. I think there's so
many reasons why women are less likely to pursue a
(09:52):
comedy in the in those small ways you mentioned, like
obviously imposter center and plays a big partner, but also
I think, you know, like car comedy is sort of
it can be a weapon of truth, like something's only
funny if it's true, And when women point out the
truth of our reality, we're punished for it again and again,
whether it's uh, you know, losing out on job opportunities
(10:15):
or like just being scoffed at on a regular basis.
So yeah, it's hard. It's much harder to take that
leap if you're a woman. Yeah, that's a great point.
And I wonder how much if I think about why
I was afraid to do comedy, it was because I
(10:35):
thought people wouldn't think I was funny, And I wonder
how much of that is what's that called when you're
like worried you're going to prove a stereotype to be true,
and that hamstrung me because I thought that I was
less funny. I've definitely had that fear. But I will
also say it's it can sometimes be scarier when you
(10:57):
are funny because people then don't like it, you know
what I mean, like they I remember being in class
in high school and I was in a psychology class where,
you know, we would talk about human nature a lot,
and there was a guy in my class who was
able to make all of these like body jokes, and
the teacher, who is male, would let him get away
with it and sort of like laugh at off. But
(11:18):
then if I did something like that, he would sort
of just like look away, like he would just try
to avoid the fact that I was making a joke
because I think it made him so uncomfortable that a
girl might have those same like thoughts and reactions. And
I had the same experience when I was dating in college,
where like I went on a date with someone from
my improv class and he would try to make me laugh,
(11:41):
and then I would make a joke and he would
kind of look at me like perplexed, Like he would
laugh and then be confused as to the fact that
he was laughing at a woman. What just happened. It
does not compute, Like he was like, that's my job here,
mm hmm. And at the same time, one of the
(12:03):
I don't know if trend is the right word, but
you might see a lot lately funny is the new hot,
and this is not a good way to look at things.
It means that we're still valuing women on their attractiveness.
And female comedians have been told time and time again
from the beginning up until now that they have to
(12:24):
the audience has to think they have a chance with you.
I read that in so many places that that was
advice coaches were giving women. Um, they're going to be
thinking about having sex with you. Ah, and if you
don't want people to be thinking about that, then dress
all man like, which is terrible advice. Yeah, it's really
(12:45):
the Like, the double standard for women who appear on
camera is so incredibly high, and then there's also a
double standard for when you work off camera, where you
still are expected to look pretty presentable. It's just I mean,
it's unavoidable. Mm hmmmm. And comedy isn't really sexy. It's
(13:11):
sad and gross and messy and angry and a lot
of other things that aren't sexy. And that's okay. Things
don't have to be sexy. Um, and I know someone
out there, probably a lot of people out there are thinking.
But people are attracted to humor, Yeah, they kind of are.
Some science does suggest that women are more attracted to
funny men, while men are more attracted to women who
(13:33):
think they are funny. Doesn't surprise me, that's definitely true.
But I also know a lot of men who appreciate
funny women, So I do think it's a little bit
of a nurture versus nature thing. Like it's the same
way that we find that men are very willing to
sleep with women who are heavier, like in general, like
(13:54):
they're not not attracted to them. They're just less willing
to walk out in public dating someone who's had bear,
you know what I mean. So the things that men
at their core field versus what they will admit to
publicly are two different things. That's true. That's true. Also,
I always think in UM surveys and studies like this
(14:16):
that there you always have to take into account that
people know that their responses are it's for a survey,
it's for a study, I think impacts their responses. Yeah,
I just I know with my friends in particular, like
for bigger women, it's like, not to keep harping on
this one point, but they have a very easy time
(14:40):
finding men who are attracted to them and want to
sleep with them. It's just when it comes to long
term relationships and things where you are, you know, meeting
each other's friends and family, that men freak out and
don't want to commit. And I think it's like, especially
an issue with bigger women. That's uh worth returning to
an episode UM. There have been other studies that show
(15:05):
that this whole thing of women aren't funny leads to
a stereotype threat and women are actually more likely to
tell jokes when in all female groups. Yeah, that's so true.
And that's something that, again I feel like does because
(15:26):
we have so few women in working in the entertainment
industry and various capacities, we don't see that represented on
TV very often. You know, we have like Broad City
and a handful of other things, but we don't have
a lot of female ensembles. And it makes me really
sad because in my experience with my female friends, they're
(15:47):
so funny hanging out with each other, you know what
I mean. Like, it's just so much funnier than other
conversations you're having day to day, and I just would
love to see more of that on screen. Yeah, I
would too. Um. Another part of this conversation, unfortunately, is
sexual harassment. Um. It's based a problem faced by a
(16:10):
lot of women in comedy, and we've seen this in
the news. There are no HR departments really in comedies,
so women have taken to private Facebook groups or other
similar things to share stories and experiences people to avoid
things like that. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think, like
(16:30):
I said, having only one or two women in the
room really impedes a lot of things. And I've noticed
in the New York comedy community as there's been a
better balance towards women in certain rooms that I think
it's easier for women to talk to each other and
share stories of these experiences. Yeah, and I know that
(16:53):
I think increased social awareness just because it is kind
of an onslaught all the time of sexual harassment. Um,
I think that people are more willing to talk about
it in the open right now. And I remember reading
when I was doing the research for this episode, UH,
(17:15):
that a woman was describing how she was in an
improv I guess a show with um, someone she respected
who was a teacher, and UM, they started the skit
and it was like the boss. He was playing the
(17:36):
boss and she was playing the secretary, and he pushed
her against the imaginary copy machine, which was a table,
and started like kissing her and groping her, and she
didn't want she didn't know what to do, but she
didn't want to appear like she wasn't gonna play along
with this guy that she respected, and that that experience
(17:58):
stuck with her for so long. Yeah, that's that's really hard.
I know. I started doing in prov when I was
nineteen years old, so there was definitely some experiences like
that where I, as a young person didn't know what
what was normal, you know what I mean. I didn't
have a lot of frame of reference for like being
(18:19):
a working person in the world and what was appropriate.
And um, yeah, you just because these men, in particular
I found in our comedy community, they tend to pray
on younger women. Um. Whether it's because they find them
more attractive or they realize they're better victims, I don't know,
(18:39):
but they seem to be very good at finding women
who are better prey I guess, and that people that
are younger and newer to the community and easier to
single out. And yeah, it's just very scary when that's
happening to you at any age, but I think especially
at a young age because you just have not been
(19:00):
given a lot of coping mechanisms. Yeah, and if you're
starting out in your career, UM, I think it's just
difficult if it's someone I mean, it's always difficult, but
if it's someone that you respect and you feel like
maybe you need this person to to further your career,
(19:21):
and yeah, you don't have the world experience in coping mechanisms, UM,
can be really really hard to do, And I feel
like until very recently, I feel like most people just
didn't have the language to describe these issues. You know,
So when things like this were happening to me in
(19:42):
like two thousand and six, for example, I don't not
only did I not necessarily realize the extremes of things
that might have been happening to me, but if I
had reached out to the people around me, like, they
just wouldn't have been a great support system for that.
And in many ways, the community still isn't always a
great support system for women experiencing these things. Yeah, how
(20:05):
how many? How so, like what's an example? Well, I
mean it's hard because you know, as you know, uh,
comedy doesn't have an HR department, and in general, from
what I've heard, you know, HR department served the companies anyway,
so there's a few people to really report to. And
then if you do tell people, I think, you know,
(20:28):
it's sort of like a trial by uh what's the
word I'm looking of course, sorry, it's like a trial
by your peers, like sort of he said, she said,
And it just, um, it becomes very difficult. The men
in these scenarios almost always have more power and influence. Um,
and I think that's why they know they can get
(20:48):
away with what they're doing. But um, you know, it's
like you don't necessarily want to go to a theater
to complain about man who performs there are works there
or runs or owns the theater, because there's just so
small a chance that that's going to work out in
(21:08):
your favor, right, Yeah. And we were talking about on
an episode recently about how and this is kind of
a tangent, but comedy is very much, at least most
of the time, you're the person is that person, if
(21:33):
that makes sense, so like that is coming from a
place of truth. And then if that person turns out
to be a sexual harasser and there's somebody that you
really um identified with, how it can be so personally
painful for you. Um, it's just a really interesting I
(21:55):
don't know how to describe it. But the betrayal you
you yeah, I mean that's the thing is it's like
you don't want to believe these things when they happen,
like none of us do. And I think especially if
it's you know, one of your heroes that supposedly committed
a certain crime, you really really don't want to believe it.
(22:16):
And if you're a man and you don't have a
frame of reference for experiencing something like that done to you,
I think you especially don't want to believe it because
you don't I want to believe that these things happen
to women. So it's just it's very difficult. I mean,
I I feel like so many situations where I've seen
this happen, people close to it are they're just it's
(22:37):
a lot to reconcile. And I think that's what a
lot of people are doing right now in every industry
is sort of like learning how to come to terms
with how do we deal with these things and how
do we find sort of like a punishment to fit
every crime. And you know, it's complicated, It is very complicated.
(22:58):
But there are some things that are improving, some positive
things that are happening, and we're going to get into
that after a quick break forward from our sponsor and
(23:19):
we're back, thank you sponsor. So yeah, things are improving
for female comedians. Um and therefore I would argue for
all of us, comedy is diversifying very very slowly, but
it is. Uh. Lena Way became the first black woman
to win an Emmy for Comedy Writing last year. Last year,
uh Sae became the first black woman to create a
(23:42):
star in a premium cable show. And I was wondering, Beth,
if you have you seen any positive changes in your
time working as a comedian or being a part of
the comedy scene. Uh, yeah, for sure. I mean there's
definitely a lot of diversity initiatives happening right now, and um,
(24:04):
there's just I think so many more performers out there,
you know, even attempting these things. I don't. I've seen
the New York comedy scene grow. It feels to me
more diverse. It might just be, you know, I'm more
aware of the stand up scene than I used to be.
But um, the New York comedy scene is also had
(24:24):
sort of an explosion of queer comedy community. So it's
really great to see people be able to put up
shows that are not just one woman or two women,
but like a show that's all women, or a show
that's all queer people or you know, black people. And
it's just it's like what we're saying earlier, it's just
(24:44):
easier to laugh at certain things and have those kinds
of conversations when you're with like minded people who've had
similar experiences. So it's very exciting to see people not
just get to be a part of it, but to
really UM have their own vision that they're putting out
there for their experience has been and what they think
is funny about their experience. It's exciting and it's refreshing
(25:08):
just to see to hear these new new stories UM,
because I feel like we've been telling kind of the
same same things for a while, and not just in
comedy but in general UM entertainment, and I love that
it's finally diversifying a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I
will say I think it's diversifying on the ground. I
(25:30):
think it's still very hard for people of color or
women to get paid for comedy or to make it
to TV and or movie stage. Like basically the people
who hold all the money and power are still for
the most part, white men, and that's like, it's really
hard to get your ideas across to them. What is
(25:55):
the in your experience, Like how I guess I I'm
just I'm new to them. I've never been working in
comedy before. How does payment work on the ground level?
Are you getting paid by like the club. Um. The
most common thing that I've seen is you know, people
putting up their own shows and then the club might
(26:17):
give them a cut of that, and then they might
pay their performers. Um. Sometimes the club does pay performance directly.
I think the average like stand up comedian is probably
not getting paid for their show at all, and if anything,
I would say there maybe getting like fifty bucks or something.
It's not a way to make a living unless you
have really made a big name for yourself and you're
(26:39):
touring or you're getting a TV show or something. Uh. Yeah,
that's been my experience in acting as well. I wonder
how many jobs are like that that we just don't
know about, where a lot of people are doing work
without getting paid, um for like in the case of acting,
(27:02):
it's for exposure. Maybe you'll get some footage for a
real or something like that. But well, and I think
to some extent that's like a necessary part of the
industry because if you you know, have taken a few
improv classes and you're getting up on stage doing improv,
like number one, the theater is not making that much
money off your show, and number two, your show at
(27:24):
that stage in your career might not be that great,
to be honest, so that you do really need to
like charge people a low rate to see your early
work of comedy. That's something I think people have to
understand is like in other fields, by the time you're working,
you've probably done four years of college to become somewhat
of an expert in that field, and in comedy, you're
(27:46):
kind of learning on the fly. So I think you
do have to expect to put in a few years
of your time before you're like really generating any kind
of income from it. Yeah, that's true. You've gotta sharpen
your skills on your skills a little bit. It's tough
out there. It's it's hard for everybody. And I think
(28:07):
even the people you see on TV or writer's Rooms
or whatever, I like, I think for the most part,
those people are probably making a lot less money than
you realize because they might get an okay rate for
you know, eight weeks of a writer's room, but then
the show goes on break and then they have to
hustle to find more income for the rest of the year,
(28:29):
you know what I mean. It's it's just it's really
hard at a lot of different stages. It's always been
interesting to me that kind of this disconnects with comedy
and comedians you would think are I guess generally, I
don't know how happy is the word would like to laugh.
(28:52):
But then you hear about all of the work and
that the years of not getting paid and toiling away
a bad hood's hell rooms, and it just kind of
a disconnect. Yeah. No, it's rough. Yeah, and it's particularly
for stand ups I think. I mean, some people are
more built for it than others, but just hanging out
(29:13):
in like dark dingy clubs all the time is not
great for your mental health. M hmm. Surprising. Um. I
wonder they're actually isn't that much data specifically looking at
women in comedy, because I was trying to get to
the bottom of like pay and how much compared to
(29:37):
male comedians are women getting paid. Um, But I am
curious if anyone out there has has some data that
I did not find. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's lower,
as is every industry. Um, and mostly just because you're
not getting the same opportunities. Um. For example, with writer's rooms,
(29:59):
you tend to get paid on like your level of experience,
which usually is how many writer's rooms you've been in before,
and so like we're saying, people, there's just less women
in writer's rooms, so it's more likely that you're on
the more inexperienced side, especially if you're a person of color.
There's just like even less rooms that are staffing up
(30:22):
with many people of color. So that's true. And we
we went into the break saying that this was going
to be the positives that I've gone in. But would
you say, are there things benefits for you personally that
(30:43):
you've gotten from doing comedy? Yeah? I mean, like as
we were saying speaking to improv before and how scary
it is, I will say that doing something that feels
that terrifying really makes a lot of other things in
your life seemed less terrifying. So if you can make
up words on the fly in front of a crowd
(31:03):
of people, it makes other public speaking where you don't
have to make it up on the fly seem a
little bit easier. And um, improv in general has a
really great yes and philosophy and a lot of tools
for being on stage with people that require a level
of give and take that I think it's just a
really useful tool to have as a human in terms
of how to interact with other people and how to
(31:26):
be considerate of, you know, their needs in space, and
how to make sure you're you know, speaking up for
yourself and not just like standing on the back line.
I mean, the reason I do comedy, and I think
the reason a lot of people do comedy is just
because we can't not do it. So it's sort of like,
as hard as it is, if I were to quit comedy,
(31:47):
my mental health would go down the tubes immediately, because
this is sort of like what keeps me going, Like
this is what I get excited about. Yeah, it is
a very rewarding experience in the little experience that I
do have. Um. I remember specifically one we had to
(32:09):
do a show and improv show and I was so
nervous and they're only four of us, so you really
had to pull your weight. And I came up with
a kind of way to close the scene that was
going on for a long time, and people really dug it.
And clearly it's stuck with me because I still think
about it, like, oh, yeah, I mean that's another great
(32:31):
thing you learn and improv is editing your scenes, and
I think editing is like a sort of underappreciated life tool.
There's so many times when you know people are communicating
information and there I think a lot of us just
have a tendency to be so long winded, and it's
sort of like learning to get to the point and
(32:52):
stay on topic and all those things. I think that
it's really great, absolutely, and that could be one of
the reasons why I many offices and ours is included
bringing in people to do kind of a We did
a six hour improv day because it's supposed to improve
your your skills, skills that are useful at work as well.
(33:16):
That's great. Yeah, it was really fun, um and I
think it also helps people be present and really listen,
which is something that is lacking in my opinion often.
But it's it's definitely well, I guess it depends on
(33:37):
who you are. I was going to say it's definitely terrifying,
but once you get over it, it's really really fun.
So we have a little bit more for you listeners,
but we have one more quick break for a word
for a sponsor m HM, and we're back, Thank you sponsor.
(34:04):
So we've touched on a lot of problems that have
female comedians face a lot of obstacles, so we wanted
to look at things that we can do to to
change that, to improve things. One thing that I ran
into and a lot of places is making sure that
female comedians are a part of our children's media diets,
(34:27):
because it does start pretty young. I'm the stereotype are
kind of internalizing of women aren't funny, which I do
think we're moving away from, but slowly. Um, I think
it starts pretty young, and if all you're seeing our
comedians of a certain type, then you might start to think,
(34:48):
then that's what funny looks like. Yeah, for sure, I
think you know, representation has a huge impact on our psyche,
not just in terms of like being something once, but
the amount of times you see you're someone like yourself
represented on screen is like going to have a huge
impact on how important you feel to the world around you.
(35:12):
I know that a lot of women had sort of
like a revelatory experience watching Ghostbusters when it came out
a couple of years ago, because it was just not
just seeing you know, four women on screen, which is
actually so unfortunately rare in the film industry, but to
see them be like these action heroes and fight ghosts,
(35:33):
you know, like it sounds so dumb in theory, but
then when you see it, you like almost burst into
tears because you just don't get to see something like that.
Oh absolutely, I am. I would describe myself as someone
who does not cry often. And both times where people
(35:54):
have told me like, oh, Annie, you're gonna you're gonna
tear up seeing this movie because it's mostly women and
they're like well written and powerful and funny, I was like, fah,
I don't cry, and both cry Yeah, like within the
first three minutes. Oh my gosh. Well, and another funny
thing about that movie is like it's a really silly
(36:16):
movie about ghosts, obviously, but the female friendship and the
way those women hung out with each other and made
fun of each other and stuff was actually like one
of the most realistic portrayals of female friendship I've ever
seen on screen. And so that was like very exciting
for me because I think, you know, like the quality
of representation matters too. There's plenty of women on TV,
(36:38):
but they're playing stereotypes of women, and I myself and
a lot of other women don't really see ourselves in
those women, and it's sort of just like a it's
an underwhelming thing to watch Yeah, and something I was researching.
Oh it was for games and gaming and um, a
(36:59):
point one of the articles brought up is there is
more representation of women, but it's not great representation, specifically
looking at the example of UM action heroes and how
there are more female action heroes now, but they are
not allowed to be funny in the same way that
(37:21):
male action heroes are. And it gave off like the
list of examples, and almost all of them are all
the female examples are super badass and no nonsense, which
is good, but if that's all you see, then you're
still telling only one thing. And then for the male
superheroes are just heroes. They were much more varied and
(37:43):
much more allowed to be funny or quirky or something
else on top of being an action hero, Like there
were more dimensions to them, more nuance. That's really interesting
because I've always found that the only superheroes that I'm
interested in are the ones that are pretty funny, and
then there's a lot of other superheroes where the movies
get pretty dark or whatever, and I just I don't
(38:04):
feel invested in it, and I know, like seeing Wonder Woman,
and I don't mean to like knock any of the
women involved, because I think it's so great that they're
doing it. But I didn't really connect with that character.
And I was also very frustrated that, you know, like,
we're finally getting a female action figure and sorry action star,
(38:24):
and she spends maybe like ten or fifteen minutes with
other women in the beginning of the film, and then
the rest of the film she has to hang out
with a bunch of random guys. Like it's just like
I was, just like, this is just a movie about
a bunch of guys. There happens to be one girl there,
you know what I mean. Yeah, Yeah, The part of
that movie that's my favorite is when the beginning fighting
(38:49):
and they're super strong. Um. Another piece of advice I
saw was signing up young girls form classes or even
young boys but with a female teacher to get to
normalize that women are funny and that there are female
(39:09):
comedians out there. And I would I would say probably
for a lot of us. If you think of the
class clown, the thing that comes to your mind is
probably a young fellow. Certainly is in my mind. And
I remember reading an article doing getting ready for this episode, UM,
where it was sort of similar to what you were
(39:30):
talking about earlier. Um, the author, as a young girl,
had been the class clown but kept getting in trouble
for it in a way that her male the male
students didn't. Yeah, I definitely found that to be my experience.
I mean I was a pretty shy kid, so I
wasn't putting myself out there that much. But when I did,
(39:50):
on the rare occasions I you know, tried to crack
a joke, it was like just not nearly as well received,
you know what I mean, Like, yeah, everyone just goes
kind of quiet and looks around, looks away. Yeah. I
when I was I'm pretty shy, but I was sometimes
(40:11):
I would make a snarky I would say, funny comment,
but most people just interpreted interpreted it as oh Annie
is in a bad mood today. Yeah, I mean my
friends would laugh at me, you know what I mean,
if it was like a few of us hanging out.
But it's just when you sort of shout something out
(40:33):
in a classroom, it's just not the same as a woman. Right.
Our class clown was a dude, and he definitely could
get away with a lot of stuff. He He once
started a food fight, like stuff that. Um, I'm sure
(40:56):
if I had started a food fight it would have
been a different story. Well, that's the thing is like
even when teachers were mad at boys like that, they'd
sort of be like laughing at the same time, like
you know, it's like Jimmy, And then when you're a girl,
you just sort of get this like cold response, like
where they're like, Okay, let's move on. You know, Yeah,
(41:16):
how irresponsible of you. Do you have any advice for
young girls and women who are interested in comedy, Um,
I think just do it as much as possible and
try not to focus too hard on getting approval of
from the people in charge in your community or theater.
(41:37):
It's um not that you shouldn't try to do comedy
in those spaces because you do want to be seen,
but there I've noticed there's a lot of ways around that,
people putting up their own shows or creating their own
web series or whatever. It's just you just really have
to get experience. So if the if you're not getting
a lot of green lights from the gatekeepers, you have
(41:59):
to find your own way to get it out there. Absolutely,
that is something that I have done through other creative
things like acting, our writing, and I will say to like,
if it's something you love, well, there's a lot of things,
try not to burn out on it, which happened to me, um,
(42:21):
and then be prepared for rejection and just move on. Like,
if it's it's constructive criticism, absolutely take that in. But
I mean it's competitive and there's so many other things
that play that are out of your control. Uh So
(42:43):
if you take things personally, it's going to be a
miserable time. And I know that's hard because it is personal. Yeah,
I mean, despite what I said about you know, discrimination everything,
I will say that comedy just by its nature involves
a lot of failure. So you do have to phase
a lot of rejection and become ok with that and
understand that some things just aren't going to be there
for you. M yeah. Yeah. And I always try to
(43:09):
you know, silver linings it and think, well, this is
more material that I can once I've moved away from it.
It's not so upsetting that I can incorporate into creative outlets.
Mm hmm. There is a US nonprofit called Women in
Comedy and they are pushing for better representation of women
(43:30):
and other marginalized folks in comedy and they're based in Chicago.
They have classes, events, resources for women looking to get
into comedy, and they put up chapters in cities across
the United States. So check them out. If this is
something that resonates with you, um, and I would give it,
give it a try. If it's something you may be
barely in the back of your head thought maybe I'll
(43:53):
do it, I would give it a try. Yeah. I mean,
even if you don't end up pursuing comedy, I think
it's a really great life skill first, so many areas
of your life. Yes, I agree. What would you like
to see change as someone who's worked in comedy? Are
there any actionable things that that we could do? Um? Yeah,
(44:17):
I so one thing I've noticed, you know, in the
last few years, obviously we've had more kickstarters and things
like that. I would say, there's just a lot of
little people struggling in the comedy scene, and if we
want them to survive, they are going to need our
help at some point because there's just so little money
going into comedy at that level, and there's so much
(44:39):
time and energy that you have to put into it
to get anywhere. So if you know people pursuing it
or you can find people in your city, you know,
support their kickstarters, their go fund means, whatever they're putting
out there, even their Venmo. Like sometimes you know, young
struggling comedians in the community will like literally just say
like I can't make rent this month and whatever. They
(45:03):
might publicly complain about it and sort of jokingly reference
their Venmo account. But that's like a real need. So
for those of us who can spare you know, ten
or twenty bucks here and there, I think things like
that make a big difference. UM On a larger scale,
I think just support UH TV shows, UH theater shows
(45:24):
that feature diverse groups of people, UM watch TV shows.
I also, personally my thing is kind of like divesting
from white male stuff. So if there's a TV show
that other people are watching that has a bunch of
white dudes, I mean, first of all, I get kind
of like turned off by watching and immediately because it
(45:45):
just feels so stale in but I won't I'll just
not watch it. Like, just because a bunch of guys
are recommending something to you does not necessarily mean it's
that good or worthy of your time, and you don't
have to have something to talk about with them. Uh
you know what I mean, Like, it's just be a
(46:05):
discriminatory about what you're uh supporting with your time, energy
and money. Sure, And I know it's um a joke
that I see at least a lot among my friend group,
because there is a lot of improv, especially improv among
my friend group of sorry to spam you again, and
(46:27):
I've got another show and it's sort of a running
thing like, oh no, I'm gonna invite me to another
improv show. But being there and being supporting um is
is very important and I've almost always had a good
(46:48):
time even when I had my reservation. Um. Are there
any female comedians that you're particularly into right now? Um?
Here in the York we have a lot of great
comedians um Io Debris, Patty Harrison, Katherine Cohen, um Out
(47:09):
in l A. There's really great character actress named Chloe Fineman. Um.
You should check them all out on Instagram. They're all
super funny and put out a lot of great videos.
I love some recommendations. So thank you very much, and
thank you so much for joining us as well. Beth.
(47:31):
Where can people find you? You can find me on
Twitter at Beth new Um on Instagram, at Beth Newell
with no second e. It's a little bit confusing. Um,
you can find my podcast we know as Parenting wherever
you get your podcasts, and we Know as Parenting is
also on social media, so you can buy us there. Yeah,
(47:54):
go go check those out. And if you would like
to send does an electronic letter, you can. Our email
is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You
can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
and on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to
(48:15):
you for listening.
Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff Mom
never told you. Today, we're joined by a guest co host,
and I'm very excited about Beth Newell. She is the
(00:26):
co host of the podcast We Knows Parenting. She's also
the creator, co founder, and editor of Reductress, which Wired
calls the most brutally truthful comedy site out there. Thank
you so much for joining us, Bet, thanks for having me.
Could you tell the good listeners out there about yourself
and about your podcast? Sure? I am trained as a
(00:50):
sketch and improv comedian. In two thirteen, I launched the
website Reductress, which is a satirical news or sorry, a
satirical women's magazine website. Sorry, I haven't had to explain
that in a while. Um. I have a podcast with
my husband called We Knows Parenting. It's just two comedian
parents kind of riffing on parenting with no good expert advice. Excellent.
(01:17):
And you pitched an episode on women in Comedy and
do you have over a decade of experience in the
New York comedy Senior. Yeah, that's right. I started out
doing improv and then slowly moved over to sketch and
then reductress. I um, I've done some improv, but I
(01:39):
am more into the acting side of things. And I
actually was so afraid of doing comedy that for my final,
I mean, this was like a I'm talking about it
as if I did in college. It was just like
a class I took outside of work. It was sort
of structured like a class would be. And from my final,
like I had done, I'd finished the course. It was
(02:01):
the last class. My professor gave me two things. He
terrified me, comedy and an accent. I like to think
I did Okay. Yeah, I was also terrified when I
started doing improv. I was not a performer prior to that,
so I just the act of like saying words in
front of people was terrifying, and I would I would
(02:24):
show up to all my classes like shaking. Yeah, oh
I would too. I remember I would get to class
early because it's kind of a hike from where I worked,
so the traffic is really bad and the only way
to get around that was to leave really really early
and then just wait outside the class. So I had
like this thirty minute period where I'd be waiting for
class to start. I'm getting more and more nervous. That's
(02:48):
exactly what would happen to me, because I came in
from Brooklyn and I didn't want to be late, so
I would be like a half hour early, and then
i'd like get a cup of coffee. That made me
even more anxious. Yeah, and yet here we are, here
we are talking on podcasts. Yeah, it's actually interesting to
(03:08):
me how many podcasters I know that are nervous about
performing and speaking in front of people and that is
their career. Yeah, there's something nice about being like behind
the screen or you know, not. When never see myself
on video, I panic, right, And I do think there
is something about sort of playing a character that's not
(03:30):
really what we're doing. But you you, you exaggerate parts
of your personality. Um, and I find something about that comforting.
Mm hmm. But today we're gonna focus on on women
in comedy, and I thought that you would be a
perfect person to to speak to this because, as I said,
(03:51):
I really don't have any experience apart from like this
one improv class and then that that final where I
remember the monologue. It was about a third four year
old Brooklyn woman who hadn't lost her virginity anyway, um, so,
if we take a look at the state of the
union for women in comedy, Historically, women have been kept
(04:12):
out of the comedy sphere. It was seen as improper
or unladylike, and people who booked comedians who were and
are mostly men, followed the rules of the club like, um,
only one woman in a set, never two women back
to back, separating female comedians for an all are mostly
female audience, and this kept women from getting in front
(04:33):
of the producers, who again were mostly men, that could
help them take that next step in their career. And
the timeline of the female comedian in many ways mirrors
the timelines of feminism. The first surge of female comedians
took place in the seventies and eighties, as more women
were entering the workforce. And yet when people ask Tina Fey,
(04:58):
for example, um, isn't this an amazing time for women
in comedy, she replied, it's a terrible time. The boys
are still getting more money for garbage while the ladies
are hustling and doing amazing work for less. Um, have
you experienced any sexism in your time as a comedian?
I mean yes, but it's so hard to illustrate it.
(05:22):
To people who haven't experienced it. I think because it's
these days, I think it's often so subtle. It's not
like someone you know calling you abroad or something. It's
like you're just like your ideas are overlooked. And that's
part of the inspiration for your actress is that when
Sarah and I started doing uh Sketch comedy at a theater,
(05:43):
it was we were often one of the only women
in the room or one of two women in the room.
And I started doing these workshops to get more women
involved in the program, and in doing so, I realized
that the women in the room were laughing at each
other's jokes so much more than I ever would have
experienced in other rooms because men don't always get the
reference points, and when they don't, they just assume you're
(06:05):
not funny instead of assuming that they don't understand something.
Of course, Yeah, I read a lot of um accounts
of female comedians being turned down because there already was
a female comedian in the lineup, or the m C
if there were women in the lineup, playing up that
and being like, oh, lady, get ready, she's about to perform.
(06:27):
And I've never watched the marvelous miss MASL. But I
do know that that happens in the commercial, and I
think it's funny because even as we're starting to do
better with diversity, and I mean by better, I mean
like a little bit better, I think people's attempts to
do that are often sort of for them to get
(06:48):
like points instead of what the actual purposes of diversity
would be, which is to increase the like different kinds
of voices you have in the room. So again, when
you're one the only black person in the room, or
the only woman in the room, or even when you
have like two or three women in the room, it's
still you're still often expected not to really speak to
(07:09):
the things you care about and to sort of go
with the flow of the people in charge, because we
still rarely have women in charge in those situations. Um,
we have, you know, some women on camera, but it's
rare with movies and TV that we have women head
writers and women directors and the people who actually control
what's happening. Yeah, and if we look at some numbers, um,
(07:37):
men are two point six times more likely to play
the funny one when compared to women. Amy Schumer is
the only female comedian to rank in Forbes magazine and
the first to headlines show at Madison Square Garden. And
there seems to be this belief um that women do
women's comedy and therefore is niche kind of like what
(07:59):
you're you're talking about just a second ago. It's so
funny because I've brought up Productress to people who ask
what I do for a living or you know, why
there's a group of women congregating somewhere that men will
be very curious when women are congregating, And when I
explain what Productress is, I've literally had men' tell me, oh,
that's niche. And it's so funny because we're more than
(08:24):
fifty percent of the population and men have no problem
doing like Batman everything, like that's not necessarily like everyone's interests,
you know what I mean. But they have no problem
channeling their own niche interests into media, you know, like
they'll have like a Game of Thrones after the show shows,
(08:46):
you know what I mean. Like it's just like such
specific stuff that they're allowed to do, and we still
haven't been allowed to tell I think some of the
most basic stories of our existence. Yeah, and I think
a lot of us have heard the whole stereotype that
women aren't funny. There have been studies about this, of
course there have, and the short version is men are
(09:09):
more willing to take risk and more confident in their
funniness whether they are are not, but they aren't funnier um.
Men are also likelier to include humor when prompted to
write free form. One study conducted in where a group
of undergrads were tasked with captioning and cartoon men, on
average rated themselves at like two point three on a
(09:32):
scale of funniness um, one being the least funny and
five being the most funny, and women gave themselves a
one point five of the male participants believed men in
general were funnier of women. Agreed. I think there's so
many reasons why women are less likely to pursue a
(09:52):
comedy in the in those small ways you mentioned, like
obviously imposter center and plays a big partner, but also
I think, you know, like car comedy is sort of
it can be a weapon of truth, like something's only
funny if it's true, And when women point out the
truth of our reality, we're punished for it again and again,
whether it's uh, you know, losing out on job opportunities
(10:15):
or like just being scoffed at on a regular basis.
So yeah, it's hard. It's much harder to take that
leap if you're a woman. Yeah, that's a great point.
And I wonder how much if I think about why
I was afraid to do comedy, it was because I
(10:35):
thought people wouldn't think I was funny, And I wonder
how much of that is what's that called when you're
like worried you're going to prove a stereotype to be true,
and that hamstrung me because I thought that I was
less funny. I've definitely had that fear. But I will
also say it's it can sometimes be scarier when you
(10:57):
are funny because people then don't like it, you know
what I mean, like they I remember being in class
in high school and I was in a psychology class where,
you know, we would talk about human nature a lot,
and there was a guy in my class who was
able to make all of these like body jokes, and
the teacher, who is male, would let him get away
with it and sort of like laugh at off. But
(11:18):
then if I did something like that, he would sort
of just like look away, like he would just try
to avoid the fact that I was making a joke
because I think it made him so uncomfortable that a
girl might have those same like thoughts and reactions. And
I had the same experience when I was dating in college,
where like I went on a date with someone from
my improv class and he would try to make me laugh,
(11:41):
and then I would make a joke and he would
kind of look at me like perplexed, Like he would
laugh and then be confused as to the fact that
he was laughing at a woman. What just happened. It
does not compute, Like he was like, that's my job here,
mm hmm. And at the same time, one of the
(12:03):
I don't know if trend is the right word, but
you might see a lot lately funny is the new hot,
and this is not a good way to look at things.
It means that we're still valuing women on their attractiveness.
And female comedians have been told time and time again
from the beginning up until now that they have to
(12:24):
the audience has to think they have a chance with you.
I read that in so many places that that was
advice coaches were giving women. Um, they're going to be
thinking about having sex with you. Ah, and if you
don't want people to be thinking about that, then dress
all man like, which is terrible advice. Yeah, it's really
(12:45):
the Like, the double standard for women who appear on
camera is so incredibly high, and then there's also a
double standard for when you work off camera, where you
still are expected to look pretty presentable. It's just I mean,
it's unavoidable. Mm hmmmm. And comedy isn't really sexy. It's
(13:11):
sad and gross and messy and angry and a lot
of other things that aren't sexy. And that's okay. Things
don't have to be sexy. Um, and I know someone
out there, probably a lot of people out there are thinking.
But people are attracted to humor, Yeah, they kind of are.
Some science does suggest that women are more attracted to
funny men, while men are more attracted to women who
(13:33):
think they are funny. Doesn't surprise me, that's definitely true.
But I also know a lot of men who appreciate
funny women, So I do think it's a little bit
of a nurture versus nature thing. Like it's the same
way that we find that men are very willing to
sleep with women who are heavier, like in general, like
(13:54):
they're not not attracted to them. They're just less willing
to walk out in public dating someone who's had bear,
you know what I mean. So the things that men
at their core field versus what they will admit to
publicly are two different things. That's true. That's true. Also,
I always think in UM surveys and studies like this
(14:16):
that there you always have to take into account that
people know that their responses are it's for a survey,
it's for a study, I think impacts their responses. Yeah,
I just I know with my friends in particular, like
for bigger women, it's like, not to keep harping on
this one point, but they have a very easy time
(14:40):
finding men who are attracted to them and want to
sleep with them. It's just when it comes to long
term relationships and things where you are, you know, meeting
each other's friends and family, that men freak out and
don't want to commit. And I think it's like, especially
an issue with bigger women. That's uh worth returning to
an episode UM. There have been other studies that show
(15:05):
that this whole thing of women aren't funny leads to
a stereotype threat and women are actually more likely to
tell jokes when in all female groups. Yeah, that's so true.
And that's something that, again I feel like does because
(15:26):
we have so few women in working in the entertainment
industry and various capacities, we don't see that represented on
TV very often. You know, we have like Broad City
and a handful of other things, but we don't have
a lot of female ensembles. And it makes me really
sad because in my experience with my female friends, they're
(15:47):
so funny hanging out with each other, you know what
I mean. Like, it's just so much funnier than other
conversations you're having day to day, and I just would
love to see more of that on screen. Yeah, I
would too. Um. Another part of this conversation, unfortunately, is
sexual harassment. Um. It's based a problem faced by a
(16:10):
lot of women in comedy, and we've seen this in
the news. There are no HR departments really in comedies,
so women have taken to private Facebook groups or other
similar things to share stories and experiences people to avoid
things like that. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think, like
(16:30):
I said, having only one or two women in the
room really impedes a lot of things. And I've noticed
in the New York comedy community as there's been a
better balance towards women in certain rooms that I think
it's easier for women to talk to each other and
share stories of these experiences. Yeah, and I know that
(16:53):
I think increased social awareness just because it is kind
of an onslaught all the time of sexual harassment. Um,
I think that people are more willing to talk about
it in the open right now. And I remember reading
when I was doing the research for this episode, UH,
(17:15):
that a woman was describing how she was in an
improv I guess a show with um, someone she respected
who was a teacher, and UM, they started the skit
and it was like the boss. He was playing the
(17:36):
boss and she was playing the secretary, and he pushed
her against the imaginary copy machine, which was a table,
and started like kissing her and groping her, and she
didn't want she didn't know what to do, but she
didn't want to appear like she wasn't gonna play along
with this guy that she respected, and that that experience
(17:58):
stuck with her for so long. Yeah, that's that's really hard.
I know. I started doing in prov when I was
nineteen years old, so there was definitely some experiences like
that where I, as a young person didn't know what
what was normal, you know what I mean. I didn't
have a lot of frame of reference for like being
(18:19):
a working person in the world and what was appropriate.
And um, yeah, you just because these men, in particular
I found in our comedy community, they tend to pray
on younger women. Um. Whether it's because they find them
more attractive or they realize they're better victims, I don't know,
(18:39):
but they seem to be very good at finding women
who are better prey I guess, and that people that
are younger and newer to the community and easier to
single out. And yeah, it's just very scary when that's
happening to you at any age, but I think especially
at a young age because you just have not been
(19:00):
given a lot of coping mechanisms. Yeah, and if you're
starting out in your career, UM, I think it's just
difficult if it's someone I mean, it's always difficult, but
if it's someone that you respect and you feel like
maybe you need this person to to further your career,
(19:21):
and yeah, you don't have the world experience in coping mechanisms, UM,
can be really really hard to do, And I feel
like until very recently, I feel like most people just
didn't have the language to describe these issues. You know,
So when things like this were happening to me in
(19:42):
like two thousand and six, for example, I don't not
only did I not necessarily realize the extremes of things
that might have been happening to me, but if I
had reached out to the people around me, like, they
just wouldn't have been a great support system for that.
And in many ways, the community still isn't always a
great support system for women experiencing these things. Yeah, how
(20:05):
how many? How so, like what's an example? Well, I
mean it's hard because you know, as you know, uh,
comedy doesn't have an HR department, and in general, from
what I've heard, you know, HR department served the companies anyway,
so there's a few people to really report to. And
then if you do tell people, I think, you know,
(20:28):
it's sort of like a trial by uh what's the
word I'm looking of course, sorry, it's like a trial
by your peers, like sort of he said, she said,
And it just, um, it becomes very difficult. The men
in these scenarios almost always have more power and influence. Um,
and I think that's why they know they can get
(20:48):
away with what they're doing. But um, you know, it's
like you don't necessarily want to go to a theater
to complain about man who performs there are works there
or runs or owns the theater, because there's just so
small a chance that that's going to work out in
(21:08):
your favor, right, Yeah. And we were talking about on
an episode recently about how and this is kind of
a tangent, but comedy is very much, at least most
of the time, you're the person is that person, if
(21:33):
that makes sense, so like that is coming from a
place of truth. And then if that person turns out
to be a sexual harasser and there's somebody that you
really um identified with, how it can be so personally
painful for you. Um, it's just a really interesting I
(21:55):
don't know how to describe it. But the betrayal you
you yeah, I mean that's the thing is it's like
you don't want to believe these things when they happen,
like none of us do. And I think especially if
it's you know, one of your heroes that supposedly committed
a certain crime, you really really don't want to believe it.
(22:16):
And if you're a man and you don't have a
frame of reference for experiencing something like that done to you,
I think you especially don't want to believe it because
you don't I want to believe that these things happen
to women. So it's just it's very difficult. I mean,
I I feel like so many situations where I've seen
this happen, people close to it are they're just it's
(22:37):
a lot to reconcile. And I think that's what a
lot of people are doing right now in every industry
is sort of like learning how to come to terms
with how do we deal with these things and how
do we find sort of like a punishment to fit
every crime. And you know, it's complicated, It is very complicated.
(22:58):
But there are some things that are improving, some positive
things that are happening, and we're going to get into
that after a quick break forward from our sponsor and
(23:19):
we're back, thank you sponsor. So yeah, things are improving
for female comedians. Um and therefore I would argue for
all of us, comedy is diversifying very very slowly, but
it is. Uh. Lena Way became the first black woman
to win an Emmy for Comedy Writing last year. Last year,
uh Sae became the first black woman to create a
(23:42):
star in a premium cable show. And I was wondering, Beth,
if you have you seen any positive changes in your
time working as a comedian or being a part of
the comedy scene. Uh, yeah, for sure. I mean there's
definitely a lot of diversity initiatives happening right now, and um,
(24:04):
there's just I think so many more performers out there,
you know, even attempting these things. I don't. I've seen
the New York comedy scene grow. It feels to me
more diverse. It might just be, you know, I'm more
aware of the stand up scene than I used to be.
But um, the New York comedy scene is also had
(24:24):
sort of an explosion of queer comedy community. So it's
really great to see people be able to put up
shows that are not just one woman or two women,
but like a show that's all women, or a show
that's all queer people or you know, black people. And
it's just it's like what we're saying earlier, it's just
(24:44):
easier to laugh at certain things and have those kinds
of conversations when you're with like minded people who've had
similar experiences. So it's very exciting to see people not
just get to be a part of it, but to
really UM have their own vision that they're putting out
there for their experience has been and what they think
is funny about their experience. It's exciting and it's refreshing
(25:08):
just to see to hear these new new stories UM,
because I feel like we've been telling kind of the
same same things for a while, and not just in
comedy but in general UM entertainment, and I love that
it's finally diversifying a little bit. Yeah, I mean, I
will say I think it's diversifying on the ground. I
(25:30):
think it's still very hard for people of color or
women to get paid for comedy or to make it
to TV and or movie stage. Like basically the people
who hold all the money and power are still for
the most part, white men, and that's like, it's really
hard to get your ideas across to them. What is
(25:55):
the in your experience, Like how I guess I I'm
just I'm new to them. I've never been working in
comedy before. How does payment work on the ground level?
Are you getting paid by like the club. Um. The
most common thing that I've seen is you know, people
putting up their own shows and then the club might
(26:17):
give them a cut of that, and then they might
pay their performers. Um. Sometimes the club does pay performance directly.
I think the average like stand up comedian is probably
not getting paid for their show at all, and if anything,
I would say there maybe getting like fifty bucks or something.
It's not a way to make a living unless you
have really made a big name for yourself and you're
(26:39):
touring or you're getting a TV show or something. Uh. Yeah,
that's been my experience in acting as well. I wonder
how many jobs are like that that we just don't
know about, where a lot of people are doing work
without getting paid, um for like in the case of acting,
(27:02):
it's for exposure. Maybe you'll get some footage for a
real or something like that. But well, and I think
to some extent that's like a necessary part of the
industry because if you you know, have taken a few
improv classes and you're getting up on stage doing improv,
like number one, the theater is not making that much
money off your show, and number two, your show at
(27:24):
that stage in your career might not be that great,
to be honest, so that you do really need to
like charge people a low rate to see your early
work of comedy. That's something I think people have to
understand is like in other fields, by the time you're working,
you've probably done four years of college to become somewhat
of an expert in that field, and in comedy, you're
(27:46):
kind of learning on the fly. So I think you
do have to expect to put in a few years
of your time before you're like really generating any kind
of income from it. Yeah, that's true. You've gotta sharpen
your skills on your skills a little bit. It's tough
out there. It's it's hard for everybody. And I think
(28:07):
even the people you see on TV or writer's Rooms
or whatever, I like, I think for the most part,
those people are probably making a lot less money than
you realize because they might get an okay rate for
you know, eight weeks of a writer's room, but then
the show goes on break and then they have to
hustle to find more income for the rest of the year,
(28:29):
you know what I mean. It's it's just it's really
hard at a lot of different stages. It's always been
interesting to me that kind of this disconnects with comedy
and comedians you would think are I guess generally, I
don't know how happy is the word would like to laugh.
(28:52):
But then you hear about all of the work and
that the years of not getting paid and toiling away
a bad hood's hell rooms, and it just kind of
a disconnect. Yeah. No, it's rough. Yeah, and it's particularly
for stand ups I think. I mean, some people are
more built for it than others, but just hanging out
(29:13):
in like dark dingy clubs all the time is not
great for your mental health. M hmm. Surprising. Um. I
wonder they're actually isn't that much data specifically looking at
women in comedy, because I was trying to get to
the bottom of like pay and how much compared to
(29:37):
male comedians are women getting paid. Um, But I am
curious if anyone out there has has some data that
I did not find. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's lower,
as is every industry. Um, and mostly just because you're
not getting the same opportunities. Um. For example, with writer's rooms,
(29:59):
you tend to get paid on like your level of experience,
which usually is how many writer's rooms you've been in before,
and so like we're saying, people, there's just less women
in writer's rooms, so it's more likely that you're on
the more inexperienced side, especially if you're a person of color.
There's just like even less rooms that are staffing up
(30:22):
with many people of color. So that's true. And we
we went into the break saying that this was going
to be the positives that I've gone in. But would
you say, are there things benefits for you personally that
(30:43):
you've gotten from doing comedy? Yeah? I mean, like as
we were saying speaking to improv before and how scary
it is, I will say that doing something that feels
that terrifying really makes a lot of other things in
your life seemed less terrifying. So if you can make
up words on the fly in front of a crowd
(31:03):
of people, it makes other public speaking where you don't
have to make it up on the fly seem a
little bit easier. And um, improv in general has a
really great yes and philosophy and a lot of tools
for being on stage with people that require a level
of give and take that I think it's just a
really useful tool to have as a human in terms
of how to interact with other people and how to
(31:26):
be considerate of, you know, their needs in space, and
how to make sure you're you know, speaking up for
yourself and not just like standing on the back line.
I mean, the reason I do comedy, and I think
the reason a lot of people do comedy is just
because we can't not do it. So it's sort of like,
as hard as it is, if I were to quit comedy,
(31:47):
my mental health would go down the tubes immediately, because
this is sort of like what keeps me going, Like
this is what I get excited about. Yeah, it is
a very rewarding experience in the little experience that I
do have. Um. I remember specifically one we had to
(32:09):
do a show and improv show and I was so
nervous and they're only four of us, so you really
had to pull your weight. And I came up with
a kind of way to close the scene that was
going on for a long time, and people really dug it.
And clearly it's stuck with me because I still think
about it, like, oh, yeah, I mean that's another great
(32:31):
thing you learn and improv is editing your scenes, and
I think editing is like a sort of underappreciated life tool.
There's so many times when you know people are communicating
information and there I think a lot of us just
have a tendency to be so long winded, and it's
sort of like learning to get to the point and
(32:52):
stay on topic and all those things. I think that
it's really great, absolutely, and that could be one of
the reasons why I many offices and ours is included
bringing in people to do kind of a We did
a six hour improv day because it's supposed to improve
your your skills, skills that are useful at work as well.
(33:16):
That's great. Yeah, it was really fun, um and I
think it also helps people be present and really listen,
which is something that is lacking in my opinion often.
But it's it's definitely well, I guess it depends on
(33:37):
who you are. I was going to say it's definitely terrifying,
but once you get over it, it's really really fun.
So we have a little bit more for you listeners,
but we have one more quick break for a word
for a sponsor m HM, and we're back, Thank you sponsor.
(34:04):
So we've touched on a lot of problems that have
female comedians face a lot of obstacles, so we wanted
to look at things that we can do to to
change that, to improve things. One thing that I ran
into and a lot of places is making sure that
female comedians are a part of our children's media diets,
(34:27):
because it does start pretty young. I'm the stereotype are
kind of internalizing of women aren't funny, which I do
think we're moving away from, but slowly. Um, I think
it starts pretty young, and if all you're seeing our
comedians of a certain type, then you might start to think,
(34:48):
then that's what funny looks like. Yeah, for sure, I
think you know, representation has a huge impact on our psyche,
not just in terms of like being something once, but
the amount of times you see you're someone like yourself
represented on screen is like going to have a huge
impact on how important you feel to the world around you.
(35:12):
I know that a lot of women had sort of
like a revelatory experience watching Ghostbusters when it came out
a couple of years ago, because it was just not
just seeing you know, four women on screen, which is
actually so unfortunately rare in the film industry, but to
see them be like these action heroes and fight ghosts,
(35:33):
you know, like it sounds so dumb in theory, but
then when you see it, you like almost burst into
tears because you just don't get to see something like that.
Oh absolutely, I am. I would describe myself as someone
who does not cry often. And both times where people
(35:54):
have told me like, oh, Annie, you're gonna you're gonna
tear up seeing this movie because it's mostly women and
they're like well written and powerful and funny, I was like, fah,
I don't cry, and both cry Yeah, like within the
first three minutes. Oh my gosh. Well, and another funny
thing about that movie is like it's a really silly
(36:16):
movie about ghosts, obviously, but the female friendship and the
way those women hung out with each other and made
fun of each other and stuff was actually like one
of the most realistic portrayals of female friendship I've ever
seen on screen. And so that was like very exciting
for me because I think, you know, like the quality
of representation matters too. There's plenty of women on TV,
(36:38):
but they're playing stereotypes of women, and I myself and
a lot of other women don't really see ourselves in
those women, and it's sort of just like a it's
an underwhelming thing to watch Yeah, and something I was researching.
Oh it was for games and gaming and um, a
(36:59):
point one of the articles brought up is there is
more representation of women, but it's not great representation, specifically
looking at the example of UM action heroes and how
there are more female action heroes now, but they are
not allowed to be funny in the same way that
(37:21):
male action heroes are. And it gave off like the
list of examples, and almost all of them are all
the female examples are super badass and no nonsense, which
is good, but if that's all you see, then you're
still telling only one thing. And then for the male
superheroes are just heroes. They were much more varied and
(37:43):
much more allowed to be funny or quirky or something
else on top of being an action hero, Like there
were more dimensions to them, more nuance. That's really interesting
because I've always found that the only superheroes that I'm
interested in are the ones that are pretty funny, and
then there's a lot of other superheroes where the movies
get pretty dark or whatever, and I just I don't
(38:04):
feel invested in it, and I know, like seeing Wonder Woman,
and I don't mean to like knock any of the
women involved, because I think it's so great that they're
doing it. But I didn't really connect with that character.
And I was also very frustrated that, you know, like,
we're finally getting a female action figure and sorry action star,
(38:24):
and she spends maybe like ten or fifteen minutes with
other women in the beginning of the film, and then
the rest of the film she has to hang out
with a bunch of random guys. Like it's just like
I was, just like, this is just a movie about
a bunch of guys. There happens to be one girl there,
you know what I mean. Yeah, Yeah, The part of
that movie that's my favorite is when the beginning fighting
(38:49):
and they're super strong. Um. Another piece of advice I
saw was signing up young girls form classes or even
young boys but with a female teacher to get to
normalize that women are funny and that there are female
(39:09):
comedians out there. And I would I would say probably
for a lot of us. If you think of the
class clown, the thing that comes to your mind is
probably a young fellow. Certainly is in my mind. And
I remember reading an article doing getting ready for this episode, UM,
where it was sort of similar to what you were
(39:30):
talking about earlier. Um, the author, as a young girl,
had been the class clown but kept getting in trouble
for it in a way that her male the male
students didn't. Yeah, I definitely found that to be my experience.
I mean I was a pretty shy kid, so I
wasn't putting myself out there that much. But when I did,
(39:50):
on the rare occasions I you know, tried to crack
a joke, it was like just not nearly as well received,
you know what I mean, Like, yeah, everyone just goes
kind of quiet and looks around, looks away. Yeah. I
when I was I'm pretty shy, but I was sometimes
(40:11):
I would make a snarky I would say, funny comment,
but most people just interpreted interpreted it as oh Annie
is in a bad mood today. Yeah, I mean my
friends would laugh at me, you know what I mean,
if it was like a few of us hanging out.
But it's just when you sort of shout something out
(40:33):
in a classroom, it's just not the same as a woman. Right.
Our class clown was a dude, and he definitely could
get away with a lot of stuff. He He once
started a food fight, like stuff that. Um, I'm sure
(40:56):
if I had started a food fight it would have
been a different story. Well, that's the thing is like
even when teachers were mad at boys like that, they'd
sort of be like laughing at the same time, like
you know, it's like Jimmy, And then when you're a girl,
you just sort of get this like cold response, like
where they're like, Okay, let's move on. You know, Yeah,
(41:16):
how irresponsible of you. Do you have any advice for
young girls and women who are interested in comedy, Um,
I think just do it as much as possible and
try not to focus too hard on getting approval of
from the people in charge in your community or theater.
(41:37):
It's um not that you shouldn't try to do comedy
in those spaces because you do want to be seen,
but there I've noticed there's a lot of ways around that,
people putting up their own shows or creating their own
web series or whatever. It's just you just really have
to get experience. So if the if you're not getting
a lot of green lights from the gatekeepers, you have
(41:59):
to find your own way to get it out there. Absolutely,
that is something that I have done through other creative
things like acting, our writing, and I will say to like,
if it's something you love, well, there's a lot of things,
try not to burn out on it, which happened to me, um,
(42:21):
and then be prepared for rejection and just move on. Like,
if it's it's constructive criticism, absolutely take that in. But
I mean it's competitive and there's so many other things
that play that are out of your control. Uh So
(42:43):
if you take things personally, it's going to be a
miserable time. And I know that's hard because it is personal. Yeah,
I mean, despite what I said about you know, discrimination everything,
I will say that comedy just by its nature involves
a lot of failure. So you do have to phase
a lot of rejection and become ok with that and
understand that some things just aren't going to be there
for you. M yeah. Yeah. And I always try to
(43:09):
you know, silver linings it and think, well, this is
more material that I can once I've moved away from it.
It's not so upsetting that I can incorporate into creative outlets.
Mm hmm. There is a US nonprofit called Women in
Comedy and they are pushing for better representation of women
(43:30):
and other marginalized folks in comedy and they're based in Chicago.
They have classes, events, resources for women looking to get
into comedy, and they put up chapters in cities across
the United States. So check them out. If this is
something that resonates with you, um, and I would give it,
give it a try. If it's something you may be
barely in the back of your head thought maybe I'll
(43:53):
do it, I would give it a try. Yeah. I mean,
even if you don't end up pursuing comedy, I think
it's a really great life skill first, so many areas
of your life. Yes, I agree. What would you like
to see change as someone who's worked in comedy? Are
there any actionable things that that we could do? Um? Yeah,
(44:17):
I so one thing I've noticed, you know, in the
last few years, obviously we've had more kickstarters and things
like that. I would say, there's just a lot of
little people struggling in the comedy scene, and if we
want them to survive, they are going to need our
help at some point because there's just so little money
going into comedy at that level, and there's so much
(44:39):
time and energy that you have to put into it
to get anywhere. So if you know people pursuing it
or you can find people in your city, you know,
support their kickstarters, their go fund means, whatever they're putting
out there, even their Venmo. Like sometimes you know, young
struggling comedians in the community will like literally just say
like I can't make rent this month and whatever. They
(45:03):
might publicly complain about it and sort of jokingly reference
their Venmo account. But that's like a real need. So
for those of us who can spare you know, ten
or twenty bucks here and there, I think things like
that make a big difference. UM On a larger scale,
I think just support UH TV shows, UH theater shows
(45:24):
that feature diverse groups of people, UM watch TV shows.
I also, personally my thing is kind of like divesting
from white male stuff. So if there's a TV show
that other people are watching that has a bunch of
white dudes, I mean, first of all, I get kind
of like turned off by watching and immediately because it
(45:45):
just feels so stale in but I won't I'll just
not watch it. Like, just because a bunch of guys
are recommending something to you does not necessarily mean it's
that good or worthy of your time, and you don't
have to have something to talk about with them. Uh
you know what I mean, Like, it's just be a
(46:05):
discriminatory about what you're uh supporting with your time, energy
and money. Sure, And I know it's um a joke
that I see at least a lot among my friend group,
because there is a lot of improv, especially improv among
my friend group of sorry to spam you again, and
(46:27):
I've got another show and it's sort of a running
thing like, oh no, I'm gonna invite me to another
improv show. But being there and being supporting um is
is very important and I've almost always had a good
(46:48):
time even when I had my reservation. Um. Are there
any female comedians that you're particularly into right now? Um?
Here in the York we have a lot of great
comedians um Io Debris, Patty Harrison, Katherine Cohen, um Out
(47:09):
in l A. There's really great character actress named Chloe Fineman. Um.
You should check them all out on Instagram. They're all
super funny and put out a lot of great videos.
I love some recommendations. So thank you very much, and
thank you so much for joining us as well. Beth.
(47:31):
Where can people find you? You can find me on
Twitter at Beth new Um on Instagram, at Beth Newell
with no second e. It's a little bit confusing. Um,
you can find my podcast we know as Parenting wherever
you get your podcasts, and we Know as Parenting is
also on social media, so you can buy us there. Yeah,
(47:54):
go go check those out. And if you would like
to send does an electronic letter, you can. Our email
is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You
can also find us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast
and on Instagram at stuff Mom Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks to
(48:15):
you for listening.
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