Women in Puppetry: Part II

In our continuing conversation around women in puppetry, we talk to puppeteer and artist Sarah Frechette about what the creation process is like, how the world of puppetry has changed, and what is it like being a woman in the industry.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane.
Never told you a protection of I Heart Radio's house.
Steff works. Today we have another interview conversation about women
in puppetry sometimes scheduling, it's just a crazy thing. It's

(00:30):
hard to manage. And as I said in one of
our classics, I've recently been out of town for several
days for peanut conference, which I want a peanut butter. Oh,
I have so much peanut butter. Is this peanut butter?
It's at my home. But also I'm about to leave
for another chip because I'm going to Disney World again

(00:54):
and I don't I'm a little bitter about it in
the most first world problem kind of way because the
ride I wanted to ride it's not even open. But
your favorite ride will be open. My favorite ride will
be up. Better be if it's not open, then I'm
coming for you, Samantha, because you put a curse on
it des by saying that that's enough. First of all,

(01:14):
I am your number one what is it? Supporter when
it comes to this ride, and you know it, that's true.
You are. You really helped facilitate me writing that ride.
So I'm forever grateful for that, But we did have
someone else that we wanted to talk to you about
women in puppetry and U for these episodes. I UM,

(01:40):
I read all kinds of papers about how women in
some countries like um, Turkey and in South Africa are
using puppets uh to touch on issues that they might
not be able to touch on. Are are that are
seen as socially unacceptable when it comes to polite conversation,

(02:04):
shall we say? Um and as as I was thinking
about the history of of puppets and things like um
Punch and Judy, which is from the sixteenth century, but
I also remembered Lamb Shop. I'm just playing alone. I
totally forgot about Lamb Shop. Sherry Lewis first appeared in

(02:26):
ninety six. Well, Mr Rogers obviously he had his whole
village he did, you know. I feel like I said
this in an episode before, but I didn't know anything
about Mr Rogers until college. And when I learned about him,
I got like personally moved. Hey, he's one of the

(02:47):
good ones. I hope so. I think so he's one
of the good ones. I think it's been years and
years and years of just great testimony about how he's
such a great man. You know that's funny because the
I mean, that's not funny, but it reminds me of
on this peanut festival. It's not a festival conference. There

(03:08):
was someone who had been an extra in the new Mr.
Rogers movie and he said, you can see me in
the fight scene, and we were all like, there's a
fight scene. Mr. Apparently there's a fight scene in it. Um.
But then we got uh. We were talking before this
about Miss Picky and UM set me street. Miss Petty

(03:31):
appeared in nineteen seventy four. Yeah, she was voiced by
a man, right O Resently, I think, yeah, I think so.
I thought, I'm pretty sure it's performed by a man.
Let me let adult check Frank Oz nineties six two two?
Is that what that is? I didn't know that, don't

(03:52):
So it's always been a man, unless you're talking about
the mother babies, which Savantha is eager to bring up
the Muppet babies at every turn. Yes, and apparently there's
a reboot. I didn't know this, Jitney Slate. As you said,
I'm so behind on the news. You're so behind on
the Muppet baby news. Nephews yo. Oh, well Andy and

(04:16):
Randy Pig. That's future research to be done. UM. And
as we said, if you haven't heard our part one,
you should go check that out because we sort of
asked the question about how do we define puppets because
I think for a lot of us we have a
narrow definition of what it is, but puppetry encompasses so

(04:42):
much more than what we traditionally think of, and it
can be shadows, objects, object puppetry, puppet animation. UM. So
that's something to keep in mind, and that it is changing.
Puppetry in Canada and the US at least had a
resurgence in the nineties of these and then Sesame Street
was the first episode and since then there have been

(05:07):
a lot of There have been a lot of technological
advances and and changes, and um, women more entering the workforce.
And that's something else I read is that for a
long time, and and not not necessarily in um are
our modern times, but puppetry, when women were the ones

(05:30):
doing it, it was looked down upon because it was
a feminine art. And then when men were the ones
doing it, it was seen as this really powerful thing.
And that we see that play out in all kinds
of art forms. But as our interviewees seem to have indicated, UM,
the that is changing and more women are entering this

(05:53):
this world of puppetry. So we want to feature one
of those women do being badass things in that world
in this interview. So let's get into it. I'm Sarah
free Ship. I make puppetry my life. I guess my
passion is synonymous with my work. I have multiple groups

(06:15):
I work with now. Um, Public Bob is one. Nightshade
Shadows Fare's another. The Hand in the Shadow is also another.
Because nobody told me to pick one name and stick
with it. Um, coolie. I I was reading your bio
on puppet Kebab the website. UM, and you you've done

(06:38):
quite a bit. You've toured in internationally. Um. You went
to University of Connecticut's puppetry arts program. Um, so it
seems like you're a pretty good person to be speaking
with about this conversation looking at women in puppetry. I'm
both of those things. There we go, check off the list. Yes, Um.

(07:01):
One thing that I'm curious about is how did you
decide to go into puppetry. Um, was there like a
particular moment, what kind of training did you go to?
How did you get to where you are? I've played
with dolls, so I was in high school, no joke.
I hit it really well. I made UM stories for them,

(07:25):
costumes and clothing for them, and then got involved in
the drama program in high school. UM. I also played
music in the band, and I think a lot of
playing the clarinet has been helpful with doing maryon it um,
most specifically being able to isolate movement in both hands
to make the two parts come together as one UM.

(07:46):
But in the theater, I never felt really comfortable on
stage until we did a program where we got to
wear map and then this whole other side and he
came out and I got kind of lucky that my
advisor at school and over you must have known I
was just that right, kind of weird, and said have
you looked at all at Yukon's puppetry arts program? And

(08:06):
I just that was That's all I wanted to do
at that point. So I was able to audition into
the program. Was my clarinet actually, and then spent four
years of undergrad studying things you kind of leave with
like a toolbox. I guess um a lot of knowledge
of materials and history and theories and then UM. At

(08:27):
that point, I just started finding artists, UM who I
liked their work and called them up and said can
I come over? So, which is how I ended up
in Germany for the first time working with Albert Rosser. UM.
I saw a performance of him when I was in college,
and I was just absolutely taken and drawn to his
style of performing on stage with the puppet as a partner. Um.

(08:51):
And so I my first real sort of professional workshop
outside of school was going to Germany and studying with him.
That really launched me, I think, UM, to do this
for life. Yeah. Cool. Yeah, I certainly didn't didn't get
any of that out of playing the clarinet, but I

(09:12):
did enjoy it. Um. Yeah, it was a fun I
was wondering actually recently if I got out my clarinet one,
it would be gross because I haven't opened the case
in years and I should like clean it out and
donate it. But yeah, I sold my traumbone a while ago.
You sold your traumone. I was a poor college student

(09:32):
and he didn't. And that's fair, That's totally fair. UM.
I was going to ask you about, UM, if you
have any favorite techniques or pieces or shows, which I
think is kind of a good segue from what you
were just speaking about, and yeah, like, what is it
that you really love about puppetry? So let's see. Um.

(09:55):
I feel like when I was at Yukon, I saw
this group mabou Mines performed Peter and Andy and this
um female actress did the all the voices. She kind
of was like the conductor for the whole show, and I,
upon seeing that, thought, if this is what puppetry is,
I'm totally in um. It had like a pop up

(10:16):
house that lit up and had some shadows, and it
was mostly dolt being used to create a different characters
or like uh mob turned upside down to become Nana.
It was just a little outside of I guess what
you would see on mainstream TV where the characters are
finished more from Hedge too, even if they're not of
this world, but they have eyes and ears and mouths.

(10:40):
It's you know. Uh. So that was another artistic way
to express a show using puppets that I hadn't seen um.
Bruce Schwartz who did puppets in the Double Life of Veronique,
who used to perform, but I've never seen him on
stage was another thing. Um uh sort of captured me

(11:03):
just the amount of emotion he could get and and drama.
He kind of some of his puppets would go to
the dark side a little bit. He has a ballerine,
a dancer who hurts her leg and essentially has to
transform into this butterfly because you can just sort of bee.
At that point, her life it's over because she can't,
you know, fulfill this passion anymore. So that's somebody who

(11:24):
really cut my eye. And then Albert Roser, who I
worked with in Germany, who actually innovated his own style
of marrying at controller, which is the wooden part where
all the strings sing from. So instead of um creating
something very specific that you know how it will be
strong to work, you create this character by essentially like

(11:45):
listening to the materials and seeing what comes out of
the wood grain as you carve it. So you could
start with an idea and then you just remove it
and you allow it to be and then you string
that up specifically to how this figure ends up essentially
coming into its form. So the controllers are all different

(12:07):
for every single puppet. So I like that part. I'm
drawn to the physics of that UM to the sort
of real uniqueness of that. Even in Germany his work
is considered pretty rebellious. It's not it's not a standard
European style controller at all. UM. So that, yeah, I
think that's probably why most gravitated towards him. And that

(12:30):
was my first thing out of school that I sought
to do UM was to go and study with him
and make this belly dancer Marryingett where all the strings
actually slide through different parts of the body all the
way to the to the base of the hips, and
it's literally hips, boobs and the head with two rope

(12:51):
arms swinging off from it. So it's you have to
rely on the audience and you're working together to fill
in the full form. So that that's the kind of
stuff that I really love. UM. That has I think
most influenced the work that I do. That's I have
so many things I want to ask about that, like

(13:14):
so many different directions ago and but UM, one thing
before we came in here, UM one of our colleagues
was talking about UM Sesame Street, which for a long
time has been how America that's puppets is kind of
that's what they are they don't do this sort of
dark side thing that you were touching on. And I

(13:34):
do think that's starting to change, but that's been how
we've seen it for a long time. And he was
saying that he read uh something that before there was
one female puppet on Sesame Street, there were nineteen male puppets. Um.
And one of the reasons was that women are so
automatically sexualized, and that the way that people audiences were

(13:58):
interpreting the puppet bit was that she was inappropriate and
that the male body was the neutral body. Um. And
that like when people were asked afterwards after seeing female puppets,
they often said, like, to be a female puppet, you
have to have like bright lipsick, big boobs, long hair. Um.

(14:20):
Is there something you've seen that when you're designing a
female character or a female puppet, Maybe not specifically you,
but in the puppetry world, have you seen stuff like that?
Is there a difference when it comes to puppet design
male and female puppets. Yeah? I wondered too if some

(14:40):
of that's really um just here in the US, because
I in performing in Germany, they they do more what
they call figures there, like the puppet trees and art,
so it's not it's not as campy or they're not
trying to go. I feel like there's not the aim
with the stereotypes, and the body is totally viewed differently.

(15:05):
It's a tool. And then here we can only be
naked in our showers. So so I wonder how far
that idea stretches. Um, yeah, so I see that. It
is Uh, it is interesting. There is still the fight
to make strong female characters, um that aren't getsy or

(15:29):
don't have a giant, but we have them, I guess.
But I certainly know that when I see a program
where you realize it's a woman director and stuff, there
is something about it that you can see yourself in
that you can't when it is directed by a man.

(15:49):
There's something missing the the care of the I don't
know the shape. Um gosh, I'm trying to think. Mm hmmm.
So when you look so if you say the female character,
you mean miss Piggy's Yeah, that's what I'm thinking, like
when you look at That's what I was saying Samantha,
because when I think about the Muppets, there was only

(16:09):
one female gender character and that right now she was
hilarious and she was the boss. I love that. But
I'm trying to think because if you think about like
Flazzy and all of them, and then then I think
there are some gender neutral ones that would not necessarily gendered.
But I know Piggy, Miss Piggy was one. But it's

(16:31):
typically one female character to like twenty male perceived characters,
even though there may not be human. Yeah. That's actually
something that's come up a lot in UM like conversations
around board games is that you're more likely to have
a board game cover with animals on it than you
are with women on it. Um they play, they do

(16:54):
play a lot of supportive roles. I guess she's like
miss Piggy, even though she's pretty bad as she's not
the main character is Yeah. Before though, like before the
Muppet Show, Jim Henson would do these late night programs
where he was always like shooting puppets out of a cannon,
and I, well, I mean, I guess you did that

(17:16):
a little bit then, but I feel like there was
some definitely more dark slapstick humor stuff he did and
then I wish, I wish that would continue. Now I
feel like they rely more on conversations the characters are having,
which can get a bit bapid versus just yeah. I
don't know. They used to be so much more in love,

(17:38):
all of them. I felt like they had a real
family knit, you know, posy there. They all supported each
other in a very different way in the past than
they do now. But I'm really trying to rack my
brain for female for puppet things in the US main
dream that has female lead. I know there's one thing

(17:59):
because young female in Sesame Street who just they developed
her as having a family member who was addicted to
opia Trump. Yeah, and that's a female character, young girl young, right, young,
it's not a girl young. Yeah, I'm trying to remember.

(18:20):
But yeah, I do love the old school antics of
who was that? Who are the two bantering men in
the audience up in the balcony. YEA love that we
have some more of her interview, but first we have
a quick break for a word from our sponsor, and

(18:51):
we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back into the interview.
So you were also creator when you create puppets, and
you create different um art as for the specific types
of genres, do you think about gender specifics or what
what is your motivations. Is it just based on the
play or the idea, or do you base a play

(19:12):
an idea on your creations. I guess at this point
I have a repertoire enough that I can start to
be UM some similarities or like through lines that I
do UM, which has taken me a while. So I
have a personal element I really put into every show,
whether I draw in certain stories or information about my
actual family and incorporate it into what I'm creating, or

(19:35):
experiences that I've had, good or bad, and I put
those sort of feelings into the the piece. UM. I
guess in thinking of strong public characters, I feel like
at least been performing on a strong female puppeteer. And
I certainly know that there are other female puppeteers that
are standing doing a lot of solo pieces or sometimes

(19:57):
with a life band. There's you know, answers they're trying
to create in the theater. But the nice thing is UM,
when audiences come that we are, we are what they
first engage with UM, and then the puppet show sort
of pours out of us. So I have UH the
story of the Snowflakes Man, and it can't be helped
that the main character is Wilson Bentley, the guy who

(20:19):
took the first photographs of snowflakes. But I shrink myself
down into marry net form to go and meet him.
So but I totally play a part in the whole story,
and it's on a pop up book stage, but I
really wanted to, Um, I'm a proud Vermont and it's
a story of a Vermont farmer who took these photographs. UM.

(20:43):
So I just try to focus more on that of
the good characteristics for being devoted to your passion or
you know, making also your hobby your life, even though
that may not be the main source of income. Just
finding pride in what you do, um, which I think
works for any gen her And then wanted to show
that my pride for my Vermont heritage. I use photographs

(21:06):
that my grandpa had purchased from snowflake thatently when he
was a young boy. So it's sort of like a
love letter to my grandfather because he had passed away
and was, um the only grandparents I had left as
I graduated college and was the most like you want
to pack her bag and go to Germany, go ahead,
you know, like the most encouraging person I had in

(21:26):
that moment where you know, my parents maybe thought I
was a bit more nut um, but there They've also
never told me that I couldn't do these things. I've
only been sort of shown that if you feel that's
the direction you want to go, and go, but you
gotta work for it, like you know, and so that
that I haven't ever really stopped trying to pursue this
as a career. And then some other shows. I'm doing

(21:50):
a new one called Dirty Girts, which is based on
something my mom said when she was little about her neighbor.
She said, she thinks she's Queen Elizabeth, but she's Dirty
Girts to me. So it's about middle school growing pain.
So I'm trying to highlight a bit more in this
new show. These two middle school girls who just can't
seem to get along. They're very judgmental of each other,

(22:12):
and then trying to find sort of a moment where
they have to feel some form of empathy for each other,
and even in the end that doesn't work out, they decide,
you know, we're still not super friends, but at least
they know that their way of you know, or my
mom's character's way of fitting in is to not actually
fit in at all. So this work she does in school,

(22:33):
going her own clothes, trying to look like characters from
the Vogue magazine just isn't her. Um, So that is
dirty girds trying to trying to express Yeah, I guess
some other some other ways. Right, No, it's awesome. So
I love that. So just looking at your website and

(22:55):
look going through your things, Dirty Guards and a Snowflake
man are very different types of set and different types
of puppets. What how do you decide what you will
do and how you will do it? Because it looks like, um,
it's pretty much all of the Dirty Guards is paper?
Is that correct? Am I saying that too? Simply? Um?
Or some like drawings and animation I don't know, not

(23:18):
really animations, but the artwork is amazing. But then when
I looked at the Snowflake one, you had a like
very lively set that's actual puppet. Correct? Maybe I'm just
looking at this wrong. But how do you decide how
you're going to present an idea based on whether it's
actual that small set? Does this make sense? Good question? Nope?

(23:42):
Nobody ever told me when I left school that I
should pick a form and become an expert at it.
So I come to learn that it's not common, but
there are some um puppeteers that do it. Where every
time I make a new show that I have a
new idea, sort of you just sit with it long
enough that you realized you can't shake it like you

(24:03):
have to or you know you're just gonna burst. So UM,
so I settle on this um idea. And typically all
of my stuff is not common. I didn't know snof
like Bentley would actually do as well as it has.
He's now part of like common core standards where so
I go to every state, even like New Orleans where

(24:23):
they've never seen no and the kid knows no ex Bentley,
which is kind of amazing. So my timing couldn't have
been better with that. But the rest of my stuff
is is really just UM made up and sometimes UM
time makes the difference. UM. Another piece I have, I
guess the first one I did outside of college is

(24:45):
a shadow show where there's a picture window and then
there's a grandmother and little girl, UM, and the granddaughter
wants to hear stories about the fabrics and the quilt
she's sleeping under. So she's like, I don't want to
hear a story. Makes me believe enough with the pray assessed,
it's already like I want to hear a true story.
And so that based on me pramming myself upwards into

(25:07):
the eighth grade, into my grandmother's chair and just like
tell me a story, we say, And so that is
me being able to express that moment. And um, then
when the grandmother tells the stories, the curtain come down
or the you know, over the window, and then shadows
are projected. So we go to backwards to her great

(25:28):
great grandmother who was on the underground railroad. And then
there's a story of an Irish memory quote which is
more of my family's component. And then the last piece
is a one room schoolhouse with the grandmother talked about
going to school the first time in a rag coat.
And the process of putting those together, with a lot
of late nights, not sleeping, lying in bed if we're

(25:49):
lying on ideas to pop in and then forcing myself
to turn the lamp on and write it all out
was just like just diving in completely thinking this has
to be done. This is a make or break moment.
I had already essentially books, the show. I work really
well with that pressure. I don't I don't spend all

(26:11):
the time. A lot of people do the workshop for
weeks and make sure they're ready to present. I just
go for it. And so yeah, just becoming absolutely um
only allowing my mind, no matter what I'm doing, to
think about that show and had allowed for the story
to come together, and then the allowing for continue going

(26:34):
to develop it once it's gout made. Having someone lean
in and say, oh, have you read this article before
or have you ever thought if you said this in
this moment would tie these other two things together. And
then you sort of grab at these different ideas and
and and mix them around. So the piece has grown
over the last there I say, how many years? Fifteen years?

(26:55):
And now the d I Y Makers movement makes it cool.
So when I first made the show, it was like
my grandma quill and now you have every age coming
up to you. Was like, I'm part of a quilting club.
This is what I do. I It's definitely time has
been awesome for this piece and the advancement of the flashlights.

(27:16):
It's a flashlight technique where everything moves really cinematically, which
has been um really a nice thing to explore was
and that had been led to this whole other night
Shade Shadow Theater group I'm part of, where we do
far more adult horror style stuff more Pzu thirteen. But
taking these flashlights and making everything flow around more like

(27:39):
a film is also a newer technique in shadow propetry.
So it's taking like a traditional flat form and um
being able to modernize it and make perspectives. You can
like have multiple layers and when you move the flashlight
it kind of almost looks like a cartoon where each
layer moves at a different speed and they all blend

(28:02):
into each other in this really great way, so you
can get depth. You can have change character perspective, like
have one head large and the other characters small, and
flip it around so you can almost like a camera
turn the room around, which has been it's a great
technique for telling stories. That show was sort of like
the first solouette cutouts was a lot of just like

(28:25):
quick sketching cutting things out. I definitely I think spend
more time now to research inspiration for the style of
the cutout, because I really ended up recutting that entire
showy recutting recutting all the shadow puppets, all the paper figures,
based on gaining knowledge which I didn't really feel I

(28:45):
had until later in life, of how to look at
other forms of art and find inspiration from them. You know,
data is m or expressionism or just nature. So I
think and that that definitely has had the most influence,
and I would love to think other puppeteers getting started

(29:05):
or are pulling from these other places, because it's one
thing to sort of just look around and see what's
happening in pulfect treats another thing to look around and
see what's not happening and trying to do that. That's
sort before I commit. Does that answer that question? Yeah, No,
that's not so. It sounds like just like you get
ideas and then you started thinking about creative ways to
make those ideas come to life, whether it's through as

(29:27):
you were talking about the light work or uh, the
different forms of artwork, which is amazing and which is
a fascinating process because I can't imagine how many different
types of ways, especially with technology and the new things happening,
how many different forms are trying to be new or
trying to go back to old school, how do you
how does publically keep up with technology today? Is it

(29:48):
a good thing, a bad thing, or yeah, of course
it happens. Yeah, let's see how technology has advanced the form.
I mean, there's a lot more people probably using technology
more to their advantage. I'm still like, I'm going to
make this out of wood and I make my own joint.
So a lot of things I do that are still

(30:11):
pretty I guess it could call them traditional informed because
I like creating every component. But one thing that I
guess has been pretty influential to me, and I do
think for other puppeteers, is this about motion industry? Um,
which is like uh in working in that doing some
different commercials or made some costumes on Para Norman. You're

(30:32):
you're sort of brought in and it's like, oh, you
make puppets, cool, Well, we're stout motion. So and it
is it's a whole other way of building because you're
making something that doesn't move until you want it to,
and we, on the other hand, are making something that
moves until you have to find a way to use
the controller or the rods or the light to make
it stop. So, um, it's a totally different other way

(30:55):
of thinking, but they also have different techniques, different materials,
so as you get in there, they're like, we so
elements of the costume, but we also have this amazing
blue that you put a little heat to it and
it adheres things. And then it's that for you know,
the run of the project. And so it's like, wow,
why why am I going to the fabric store and
settling on what I see? Like they really opened me

(31:18):
up to the fact that's like, you can dye the
colors you want, you can take the trims and add
them to multiple other um decorations and then actually create
a new, unique something without having to just settle on
what you're finding in this store, like at space sort
of value Like that to me is great because they

(31:41):
are inventing every time they do a new movie, all
the colors, like, all of the designs, all of the
stitching techniques, so it's really up my game. So um,
and then they're also doing things like three D printing
and so now I know there are puppeteers who are
doing that, and I guess, um, the only ways UH

(32:03):
really use that is we've done by we my partner
and art and love Jason. We've created with the curated
a music video for Japanther, and at that point we
have the puppets that are sort of scale and we're
building sets, and then you're like, wouldn't it be nice
if the bathroom had a soap dispense their three D
printer kind of kind of smile way you can do.

(32:28):
But I, for the most part in the work that
I do is public of Bob. Unless I find something
that's an antique dolls, something I really don't really don't
throw it in. I really make it using much more
out of date perhaps techniques. UM. But there are people
like um. The only example I can think of right

(32:50):
now is UM Hope Ford has this piece on migration, UM,
where this young girl comes to the US from Mexico
and having the monarchs my great sort of gives her
great comfort in this big transition. But he is performing
this puppet sort of partially attached to his knees, so
she walks by him moving his knees through this netted circle,

(33:13):
and then he has a projector overlay on it. So
it's kind of one of the best uses of that
element of technology, this sort of video stuff, to make
a much more dynamic and lively show. As a solo
performer because you can't you can't always do all the parts,
or you have to choose to or have one hang

(33:34):
and maybe the third characters looking up in the distance.
So I I think what's coming about is cool because
the puppetry has continued to progress over thousands and thousands
of years at this point, so I don't believe it's
a dying art form. I don't really feel it everyone away.
I can people rely a lot on how much it's
in the mainstream or on TV or on these stream

(33:55):
channels to prove that it's live, But there's so many
more of us doing stuff outside of that platform that
it hasn't gone anywhere. And I don't think it's at
its peak. I think it's really just starting to be
discovered the possibility. So even though I haven't really really
jumped in to some of these new three D forty
seventy effects um and it doesn't, it doesn't mean I'm

(34:19):
not supportive of others who are, because why not, why
not try at all? Sort of this puppetry is this
Unbrella word for just like being able to make a
figure and find a soul for it, and once that
soul is able to, you know, come to the stage
and the audience is believing it's alive and moving and

(34:40):
they're interacting. It's almost sort of like the point in
the middle where some of the audience's eyes and the
figure like connect wherever they see whoever that middle thing is.
It's just like when you believe it and that's that's it,
that's that's the puppet. Yeah. Um, I know nothing about this.

(35:02):
Any was the one that was like, Hey, I want
to do women in puppet try and I was like cool, cool,
And the more I get didn't hear about it. It's
really fascinating. It's so broad and wide ranging and and
so much talent and obviously patients and trying to create. Like,
I'm fascinated by people who can do art, and this
is one of the most intense level of artistry that

(35:23):
I think I've ever seen. Maybe I'm just a novice,
but like the details. Just going through your photos or
going through our own center for puppet tree rs and
see what they're doing is phenomenal. Um. How long does
it usually take you to create a puppet or a figure? What? What?
How long does it usually take to get that done
or completed? Yeah, that's the snowflake Man was an entire

(35:47):
year for sure. Then other things like them. I had
these larger mary NEETs, most of them made during studies
in Germany and Albert Grozer's studio with him and his
partner Ingrid His So we would be there for like
six weeks. We there was a painful of US Americans.

(36:09):
The bold Americans are like, hey, Rother, we want to
study with you further. Can we just come to your workshop? Cool? Okay,
we'll be there in July and we're gonna we're gonna
spend two months, but at least a month. For those
it's just there's just no way. It just takes the time.
Or as you say, the patients, which often I don't
feel I have, but someone will always lean over and
like wait for it. There. But those larger marry net figures,

(36:36):
you're you're carving the heads and you're carving the hands.
He wants. Um Rosa once said to us when we
arrived you your goal is to make a head and
shoulder maryette, which is this um type of marryingette. Uh.
He created that has this controller that starts to sort
of the forty five degree angle where there's a piece
that's lose. Like a trigger you pull and it makes

(36:57):
the shoulders go back in the head go forward and um.
Just depending on what you make depends on what sort
of mood or story it expresses. So I'm going to
have two days. You're gonna make this head and shoulder puppet.
And we didn't sleep, literally for forty eight hours, all
of us. You're just carving ahead and hands and you're
trying to make it work. And so he comes in.
He disappears for that time. When he comes in and

(37:19):
we're standing there with these pieces, were like, we failed,
we failed, We've been't finished, we have had we have hands,
we don't we have paint at them, and he goes, yeah, yeah,
sometimes it takes me a whole year to make a puppet.
And the truth actually is in seeing him, compared to
some other artists, he would spend eight years or twenty years.

(37:40):
He would just take the time needed to make the
puppet that expressed what he wanted to put on stage.
It was not that I have to have a show.
I have to have you know, I have this tour
and all these things set up. He had this piece
that was like stuff when sent ensemble where he could
add a vignette and he could remove it. So he
would just spend his time trying to create whatever new

(38:03):
innovation he wanted and allowed it to take however long.
And I I don't have patience for that. I sure
know that I like I guess I do both. So
I have these marionettes that I've finally put into sort
of a vignette program, and I went just to Germany
last month and UM performed it along with Ingrid, who's

(38:27):
eighty two. So that to be on stage with Ingrid
performing two masks, which is the first time she's really
been able to get up and have a piece of
her own. She was always assisting Rosa with his shows,
which was very important and fulfilling for her for this
long time, and then since he passed, she's been able

(38:49):
to find her own footing on stage. And what she
does is beautiful, like she's taken everything she's absorbed and
can get up there and can have you feeling these
emotions by just her movement and the way the mask
moves into the light. The lighting is very important to
make the expression on the face change shape. And then

(39:10):
UM performed with Robin Walsh, another puppeteer from Los Angeles
who came. So it was sort of like our homage
I guess to Roser, just just sort of pay tribute.
But at the same time I feel them. This last
month was really about ingrid like it just it just

(39:31):
really has proved that you should never stop. It's just
I guess I'll retire when I die because A two,
she's popping up on the stage putting this mask on.
You don't you don't even know where she goes, this
whole other being Porto. I'm like, there's I have no
excuse not to continue doing this like this is that's
the that's it. That's it's so beautiful, just amazing. So

(39:54):
it sounds like you guys have are you a found
a really close knit community? Is that something that is
been welcoming in this community? Let's say I wanted to,
Not that I would because I'm not as cool. It's creative.
That's not a dig all myself. I'm just I'm not.
But um, like, just are you Is it really opening

(40:14):
environment to have bring new people in? Is it to
grow to push? Like do you have? Because the people
we met, uh last week, Um, they were coming in
from Quebec, Yeah, to meet up the Atlanta crew, and
I thought that was really fun. They're about to go
back to where were they going? L A At one oh,
I felt like they were going to Europe. Europe. Yeah,

(40:36):
maybe so, maybe I'm wrong. Um, but is that is
that a basis for the whole puppetry community or is
that just me living in an idyllic like fantasy of like, yeah,
they all hang out taco and do some art. Well.
I actually, um feel that you're in a great place
in Atlanta, because any time I've come through Atlanta for
even a little bit, I feel like the puppeteers pop

(40:58):
out of everywhere and they're like, how do you have
a show? We're gonna let everybody know. You're like, yes,
thank you. It's just they're just so active. And then
in different places it can feel different. I feel like
there's certain places I love to go, like New Orleans.
This woman Pandora runs this giant puppet festival, so she's

(41:21):
just she runs the whole thing. She's just a fourth
and at the same time as creating and producing a
new show, to be in it and going there feels
so familiar like going home. We sort of have all
I've found these sort of yeah, they're off the beaten
past festivals that I love going to, and then we
have like our national sort of Puppet Tiers of America festival,

(41:44):
and um, I think a lot of work is done
to be inclusive. But at the same time, I don't
know that everybody who's doing puppetry around the US knows
UM about that group. Yeah, Portland's up, Okay, a little back.
I'm going to find one answer, because the answer is

(42:05):
yes and no. That's the hard that's probably with all
communities any kind of basis. But yeah, just something like
you found a good footing, um and just get people
to connect with which is awesome. I found a perfect,
perfect blend of weirdos. Yes, yes, I find that there

(42:26):
are places I go that are absolutely um inclusive. Atlanta
is one of the more awesome places, and then there
are other places where I guess the level of commitment
that one has to do to sort of be part
of the club or the group I can't do because
I do these tours where I'm I just don't sit
still very well. So I tend to to make myself

(42:48):
a family with whoever will let me show up and
a little bit of time, you know, use their shampoo
and leave awesome. In my head, I'm like, yeah, I could,
I could see where are some places is going to
be a little more involved than others and and just
fighting your group. It doesn't matter what it is. There's
gonna be great places in okay places we'll leave um

(43:11):
and for you And just to kind of throw it
out there as a female coming into this profession, creating
your own shows and um being a part of you.
You've been part of a few really big projects. It
looks like, um, have you felt like there's any backlash
or any issues that you've had to deal with overcome
as a female in this industry? Guess? Guess. One of

(43:37):
the first jobs I got touring was with a family
of male performers where one of them tried to make
me his his his object essentially, so I had to
leave and it really it really puts a strain on
feeling comfortable jumping into anything. There's always a little bit

(43:58):
of a start up. But I think also by being
at times a solo performer, there's a lot to be
gained the confidence wise from that. It's like you have
to show up and be prepared to make every component,
at least at how puppetry roles. You do your own sound,
you do your own light, you do your own staging,
you do your own story. There's you know, and then

(44:21):
you can oftentimes find these great other artists who are
passionate of what the technique or the running the theater
or roxy my room and the puppet show place theater
is just such a great um strong female in that role.
I also think because she played rugby, because you're an
extra it um but you know, you you show up

(44:43):
and it's just like, you know, you have these spaces
to keep where um, yeah, you're made to feel like
you of course you can do any of these things.
Do you need support or not? Like do you want
some of becoming and help with these things or do
you should get out of the way. That's kind of
kind of the yeah, finding finding that strength and taking
control of what you need to and you know, otherwise,

(45:06):
you know, show up to a new space and you
sort of sort of wait, what is this going to be?
How you know, how how friendly I guess can I be?
Because like that's that's the last thing I want to do,
is I think I'm you know, to be told that
I asked for something that I certainly didn't feel I
was was even was even there to do It's not

(45:28):
but not there for you. I was there to learn
this art form. But it's uh yeah, it's it's definitely
interesting too as a female performing marionettes there certainly it's
a much more male dominated forum here in the US,
But then it's a sort of a mixture. There's a

(45:49):
really at least great core group that go to some
of these more national festivals and they're just like, we'll
sort of yeah, talk to you just on the level,
like without looking at you like you're lesser. Then, but
there's there's short of you look around you're like, I
want female and it's the whole group of male marrying
at puppeteers. Wait a minute, where the rest of us? So,

(46:15):
how have you seen a change in that since you've
been in you said you've been in here in this
industry about fifteen years. Have you seen a change or
a progression of that? I guess I feel there's still
a pretty good blend with most forms of running into
what would be male and female puppeteers. But I I don't,
I don't know. I think as I sit here, I

(46:37):
could name far more groups that are mixed or men
versus female, But that doesn't mean I don't know every
group either. So and there's no platform where everybody is
sort of existing, um sort of chiming in, Hey I'm
out here. If you ever roll through this random town,
you know, my guard just full of things. I make

(46:58):
them so you you don't. I don't know everybody who's
out there, but I, at least for me, I have
this great um my best friend. In college, there was
six of us who graduated from yukle on the year
I graduated, and my best friend Kaylee Clemmons and I
are the two who are most like puppetry is what

(47:20):
we do and we're not making a puppet. We always
joke that we're making a puppet because that's what we do.
So for me, I have I have a few strong,
um inspirational um women around another best friend, Carol Gegastino,
who is the shop manager at the Center for Puppetry Arts,
And I almost feel like that's probably all I need,

(47:44):
these few, you know, like I don't, you know, it
doesn't so much matter that I look around and don't
see an even spread at just I've got these and
that's that's it. That's the fuel to keep me going.
That's the when I you know there's an issue, call
and talk to them and they're just like, A who

(48:04):
needs that? Keep going? You go, you know, go do
this other awesome thing, and you're gonna show them. And
then they're gonna you know, I wish they'd been more respectful,
and you're like, that's fright to my art. I didn't
show them that I'm unstoppable. So you got your squad,
and that's good. You're good with that squad. We have

(48:26):
a little bit more of our conversation here, but first
we have one more CREP break for word from our
sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Let's get back

(48:48):
into it. One thing we talked about in our the
other interview we did is um how throughout history, the
history of puppetry, puppets have been a tool that was
used to criticize people in power when maybe doing so
in person was dangerous. UM. And then now these days

(49:10):
puppets are also used for therapy and therapy with children
or people have gone through trauma. UM. Is that something
that you've seen, like the power of puppetry outside of
making powerful art? Um, just other ways that maybe people
don't realize puppetry is used. Are also just what what
is it that you about it that you think makes

(49:33):
it this powerful tool. Yes, but that's a very good question.
Sometimes I think on that, and I wonder if because
the puppet like as human adults were giants. So when
you're doing some art therapy, specifically with kids, were like
monster sized, and then you have this small puppet, and

(49:54):
it's amazing what they will turn and say that they
feel comfortable, they have to help or protect or they
are instantly engaging with this very small object that's maybe
on their scale or even smaller than them, and it's
amazing what can come out that. I think oftentimes an
adult can't get joy an adult. Um, I guess the

(50:18):
one example I have and it's not I wasn't there,
but my puppet was. I gave some puppets to my friends.
Um Bruce Lee actually a bad piper, not a martial artist,
but he did some art therapy and art teaching studies
and then UM got into a few schools in Vermont

(50:39):
and I, you know, said, I have these puppets. I
kind of made them that I'm not going to put
in any shows. Would you like them for your classrooms.
So he had a student who hadn't spoken yet, and
he was doing some art therapy and he pulled this
puppet out and the kid apparently started talking to the puppet.
They really weren't sure a hundred percent what was happening,

(51:01):
but no one had heard him speak. So it's, you know,
has this ability to open up things for the just
being in Germany too and talking about because this is
kind of a new thing here. But they have their um.
What they kind of translates to psycho drama, which is
theater too, is like that, like art therapy. So this

(51:24):
um boll and Eliza who I met, talked about before
there were certain men to help with schizophrenia or people
who were catatonic and stuff. After the war, she had
a puppet that would come up to someone who was
frozen who hadn't moved or spoken, and to the puppet
would sort of stay, you know, why are we laying here?

(51:44):
The sun is that, let's go outside? Why are we
laying here? The sun is that, let's go outside? And
she said she would persist us. The little puppet would
tap on them and they would just turn and bash
the puppet away, or you know, because I don't want to,
you know whatever, and hearing her stories it's like this,
you know, amazing tool forgetting things to come out that

(52:05):
otherwise I don't know. They just maybe I just don't
want to tell a stranger. But the pulp that's not
like however that works. Um, it's yeah, I think it's
so great that that's happening here, more so now that
I just m I guess I do have one, a
slightly more personal story, and you can choose your one

(52:29):
out of three or anyway. Yeah, let's see the some
Like the summer after I graduated Yukon, I went to Galesburg,
Illinois for this um sort of like what was it
like an artist residency and met this woman Lisa, who
was working in facility for Titled for disabled adults, and

(52:53):
they also had a sort of a kid's um summer
camp happening. So she asked if I would bring a
puppet show in. I had created this small shadow show
and would make puppets with the participants, but it was
all very quiet where the nurses and she were so involved.
But not everybody in this institution thought that art was

(53:18):
the best um way or the best means to help. Uh.
So I walk into this really amazing office that's got
some you know, generic we bought it the store pictures,
but at least there's color, and there's you know, something
in visually engaged. And then into a hallway that goes
just neutral, just cream colored walls all the way down,

(53:41):
looking in different rooms of adult sort of gathered in
wheelchairs or in chairs with nothing on the wall, just
room after room. It used to be like an an airplane,
making this room after room after room after room, and
just feeling the weight of like is this really? Is
this what you feel is the best way? Oh? My word?

(54:03):
And so get into this room which is already full
of adults because the time I was going to set up,
they felt was show time. So they are the happiest group.
They watched me set up my whole stage, watched the program.
I mean, we had such an amazing time together. And
then I bought into the next room where I have

(54:23):
things um for them to make, mostly textural stuff. So
as they come, you m to the table. There were
so many different things happening, so many different I guess
should say special abilities, so some would just sort of
start grabbing, you know, father's tompon, soft boss off, sober
up the form, put it on, and they head off

(54:44):
all like super happy, like interacting, ready performing. And then
some didn't have use of hands, but you couldn't put
the object or the you know, craft component near them
and see a spark when you got you chose correctly
and so and that would sort of get glued on
and they you know, would sort of send be rolled

(55:05):
out the door like yeah, It's just it was like,
there's so much happening here right now. How how is
it I'm in this room having to be very this
is very quiet, Like no, you know, the main people
who run this institution aren't supposed to know I'm here
right now, but Lisa's gone rogue and it's like I
can only see benefit. And then I go to do

(55:27):
this summer camp program with these kids where we were
going to decorate masks and they were happy just putting
eye holes and a string and running around with the
paper plate like yeah, like oh you don't, you don't
need more. You totally transformed so quickly, and then they're

(55:49):
running around having the best time. And then I went
home and cried, was like low, low, low, I mean
I watched that you know what's the the movie was
and Savage like plays the kid who's wheeled around and
eating thistication and it's not blowing. Well, I'm like, oh
my god, that that's gotta be based on a truth. Sorry.

(56:11):
So it's like, I mean, there's like such a joy
to be able to know that you had that, you
had that moment together. This was like this at the
moment you've created with this whole group of people that otherwise,
you know, like I wouldn't have had it, and maybe
they would have had it with somebody else, but it
got to be me. And then at the same time,

(56:33):
I'm like so many dead looking rooms with no vironcy,
no color, you know, like, you know, the most cool
thing to look at was your neighbor con I love it.

(56:55):
So that was such a great answer. Thank you? Is
there Do you have any advice for people who might
be listening you might be interested in getting into puppetry?
Do it? Just do it? Yeah you got there first,

(57:16):
but yeah, I just at this point I do there's
so many forms. So if there's uh, you know, it's
hard to believe that someone um who is sort of
an adult who's wanting to get into it hasn't had
some forms of interactions. So it's like question, then you
know what is it? Is it a form of fear
or you haven't tried? Is it a form of art

(57:37):
that you want to try because you paint and you
sculpt and you realize all the components could come together.
Is it because you participated in something when you were
young and always loved it and I just think that's
those are all the great reasons to start, or just
because you want to know what? What makes a puppeteer?
You know, I love this form? What what makes Yeah? How?

(58:00):
Why why are you playing with Dolph? Will you are
grown up and buy it? There's um theaters everywhere, you know,
the Center for Puppetry Arts, the Puppet Show Placed Theater
and Boston, the Greaters On the Puppet Theater, the Northwest
Puppet Center in Seattle. There's there are places that as

(58:22):
your rolling around that you can call and and go to.
And these people are absolutely passionate and have examples to show.
They have collections, they have a variety of stuff. If
there's an artist whose work you see, uh, call them,
you know, I like I like to show you he

(58:43):
did where you you know, you know, whatever Body Dunk
and Squirrel fill my underpants. I love this show where
you dance around with the squirrel because you took your
underpants and you're like, can I come over? Why? Yes?
Like I don't. I've never said no to anyone who's called.
And it's like, I kind of have this puppetry idea.
I have no idea. If it's gonna work, can I

(59:05):
come hang out? And I'm like, I will have the
hot water and key ready. That's I mean, that's I
guess what you talked about community. That's um. If someone
shows an interest, I absolutely I feel it's worth trying.
There's so many books, there's so many platforms. I guess
if you want to go online and chat that way,

(59:26):
I personally like to find people. So yeah, that's lovely.
Yeah yeah. We're big fans of like mentorship here. So
so when I'm getting when I'm ready, I'm going to
fly to Portland and come see youth is trying to
get a puppet made of herself so she can get
out of work. I'm trying to get someone to help

(59:47):
me make a puppet of myself so I can pretend
that I'm at work and it will fool me. Completely.
That is absolutely doable. Now you just have to pick
which form you want to be right. Many decisions, so
many decisions. That's right. There Is there anything in the

(01:00:07):
future that you are looking forward to, either personally or
for puppetry in general. Yeah, well, I guess personally, I'll
start a part of this project called The Spooky Girls, UM,
which I guess talking about female lead characters. It's about
these young teenage witches and um working to make it

(01:00:27):
into a film. Again for me, it's also something new
that there would be an end product that could travel
around the world the places but even I couldn't get
to us quickly. Um. But the it's a group where
there's for four teen girls who come to know each
other in very different ways um. And so they are

(01:00:48):
in the sense of all the main characters UM. And
then there's sort of what's the short story? There's Yeah,
there's sort of toying, toying I should say, with rich
witchcraft um and and through that something sort of turned
upside down for them. That then there are what's the word,

(01:01:10):
you're not they're not erasable, so they have to then
live their normal teenage lives with all these crazy games happening. Um,
being able to work while I work with two other
two other fellows actually on this more closely than Jason
Thibodeau and Gabriel Timmy and the puppets are like a
hybrid of puppetry and animation techniques together, so that is

(01:01:35):
that is exciting. But it's been nice to sort of
be the female force for when they're like, hey, we
have this idea and like the girl and say it
that way, so you can't you have to you have
to listen to me, give you all the input or help.
This is not happening right, um. But I'm excited for that.
It's something totally new for me because I definitely spend

(01:01:59):
more time on the stage. Um. And then for the
future of puppetry, gosh, I love that so many other
people at this point will just say hey, I'm a puppeteer,
and then you get to find out to what level
or degree or what percent of time. I guess, I
don't know. I'm fascinated with those things where it's like
is this your everything? Is this year after school thing?

(01:02:20):
Is this your evening thing? With email? But they'll be
like resumes or little business cards of people who are
like entrepreneur, actor, puppeteer, sculptor, and you're like, I need
to know about all of these both specifically, let's start
with puppetree. I feel like there's more, um, I guess,
feeling much more confident and bold about saying it. And

(01:02:44):
then through that, I think more opportunities are going to
get created. Yeah go puppets that um where Well, first
of all, thank you so much for joining us and
having a conversation with us. Where can listeners for having
Oh absolutely, let's see puppet kebab dot com. Um, let's

(01:03:07):
see on Instagram as puppet Underscore Kebab or as the
hand in the Shadow, which is a mixture of the
adult shadow work and the spooky girls stuff. I guess
those are the main the main ways I travel around.
So if any any listener as a theater in your town,

(01:03:30):
do you know is starting to get into puppet you
just send that information my way because I love going
to places that are unsure and then you know, I mean,
I'm going to like puppet stuff, but I especially love
going to places where they're like, well, I guess we'll
try it. Well, we got an audience and I'm like, oh, yeah,
you will go peget listeners. Send that information her way.

(01:04:00):
Give me the skeptics, yess one of the more radical
do you help puppet cheers in their face? Don't you
want to do this for every now once a month series?
Let's go perfect? Absolutely perfect? Well, thank you so much
for joining us, Thank you so much, Thank you for

(01:04:22):
having me. I love the title of this podcast too.
Mom never told you, never told me about puppets. I
don't think my mom knows about pets. It's good. Well,
my mom didn't tell me no to puppet so there
you go. There you go. You probably knew I wouldn't
listen anyway, And that brings us to the end of

(01:04:46):
our second interview in women in Puppetry. Uh, if any
of you want are doing puppetry shows, are working in puppetry,
or if you're interested, like Sarah Afford and you know
she she's it's pretty excited. Yeah, yeah, definitely reach out
to her. And definitely yeah, someone wants to makeup puppet

(01:05:07):
of me. Oh yeah, Annie, Annie, and I Samantha would
not turned that down either, throwing in the gauntlet down
the lazy as possible. Here you can help Samantha live
her best life. Yeah. So definitely feel free to reach
out to us if if you are doing cool work

(01:05:27):
in puppetry, or if he would if you're looking for
the contact and vote for Sarah or any any of
our other interviewees, you can do that via email. Our
email is Stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com.
You can find us on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast
and on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks
as always to our superducer Andrew Howard, and and thanks

(01:05:49):
to you for listening Stuff I'm Never Told You the
protection of I Heart Radio's how Stuff Works. For more
podcasts from my heart Radio, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,