August 2, 2023 • 65 mins
It's no secret that America runs on sugar -- from bread to soda, from candy to packaged food, this stuff seems to be in everything. How did this come to be, and what made Big Sugar so powerful? In today's conversation, special guest veteran reporter Celeste Headlee joins Ben, Matt and Noel to discuss her new podcast Big Sugar, which dives deep into the dark side of this insidious industry, from its early roots in slavery all the way to the modern day.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Michig, control decand most importantly, you are here.
And that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. Today's conversation is much more than a spoonful
of sugar. But we should start out by saying, I know,
I know, no hell up behind that sugar is amazing
(00:50):
and a lot of the stuff about sugar that people
don't know is frankly terrified. We've all been there. Every
few months, it seems, for instance, a study comes out
arguing for or against some aspect of sugar consumption, usually
focused on a person's individual health. And in the US,
as many people have pointed out, it seems like sugar
(01:10):
is in almost everything, and it's a multi bought, billion
dollar industry. It's fraught with injustice and corruption. We're learning
this today in a conversation with an expert in this
disturbing story, the journalist, the author, the creator of the
new podcast Big Sugar, as well as a podcast called
(01:31):
Freeway Phantom Celeste Headley. Celeste, thank you so much for
joining us today.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
My pleasure. It's good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Just so you know, Celestie, I think we've had this
conversation before, but for the three hosts of this podcast,
we listen to a lot of MPR, especially back in
the day and when we were working in Buckhead, and
we listened to you a lot. So it's very cool
to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Oh thanks, that's really kind.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
It's funny. Actually, my background is with public radio, with
Georgia Public Broadcasting, and I don't know if we ever
interfaced directly, but I worked with a lot of the
same folks that you did back in the day, and
I think we may have like shared a news call
once an hour.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I go.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So broadcasting is a is a deceptively small little this
is a very I try to tell people who are
just coming into it, like straight out of college, you know,
don't be mean to people because you are going to
be seeing them again and again and again.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So let's get into it. As we said, you are
a veteran journalist, the prolific author. You have hosted EP
multiple present prestigious programs like What Retro Report, on PPS
on Second Thought, of course The Takeaway, and more so
for any fellow conspiracy realist tuning in saying, hey, that's
(02:46):
a very familiar voice. Now there's a reason you're feeling that.
So you've you've written books like we Need to Talk,
how to have conversations that matter, do Nothing, and of
course speaking of rape, why everybody needs to talk about
racism and how to do it. These are deep dives
into the nature of communication and connection, and that's something
(03:09):
maybe we start there because that's something that stands out
to me, at least in Big Sugar, because you're diving
deep into the history and the troubling present of the
sugar industry. You're examining aspects of it that honestly, sugar
companies probably don't want the public to know. But there's
a humanness to it, you know, there's it's so easy
(03:30):
to for our minds to gloss over when we hear
abstract stats and numbers, but this show is very personal
and it's very human, which is something I love about it.
So maybe we started that human moment. Was there something
that initially inspired your journey into the disturbing side of
(03:51):
this industry? Like you mentioned you went sugar free for
a time. You also said, you know, that's where you
learn sugar is and everything. But I'm just wondering, was
there like an AHA moment or an epiphany?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah? I think.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Look, you know, as you said, I've been a journalist
for a long time, and I get that the average
person does not have the time to follow all the
stories that they technically should, right Like everybody doesn't have
the time to know everything about all the chemicals that
are in all of our foods or all of the
industries that affect us every day. I totally understand that.
(04:28):
But every once in a while, things bubble up and
become so urgent and important that it's time to pay attention.
And sugar is one of those, like it's time and
for me, that's the thing that sort of came across
my desk, Like I began when we started doing the
interviews for this, and I started listening to the stories
(04:49):
of these cutters, these Jamaican cutters who had come over
there and cut the sugar.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Cane by hand power in fidel if you're a listener
of the show.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
And this is a brutal, brutal job. I mean they're
using machetes. I don't know how many people have ever
actually put their hands on a cane. On sugar cane,
it is thick, it is tough, it's like a piece
of wood. And to be sitting there whacking at the
sugar cane all day long with this raise or sharp machete.
(05:23):
They wear pieces of chain mail to try to protect themselves.
At the same time, they're still sometimes make mistakes, of course,
and cut themselves, cut off pieces of their fingers and
bodies and hurt themselves. They're in brutal heat and humidity.
They barely get fed. Sometimes they just get a bowl
of rice to hear that this is what they were
(05:46):
going through to get the sugar onto our tables. And
then the sugar industry, the sugar barrens, still stole their
wages from them. Yeah, I mean that's why I sweat
sugar free because I couldn't. I couldn't. I didn't want
to eat it, Like I couldn't do it. I was
like I just lost its taste for me.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
It's so interesting, how like it's one of the few crops.
I guess that there has only been a modernization to
the way that it's harvested. You know, like there's really
no magic bullet or like, you know, kind of machinery
that can do it, and you have to have this
human aspect to it. And then just to follow up,
you know, these folks that are coming in from Jamaica.
They're coming in from Jamaica because the job is so
dangerous and difficult that that these companies can't find Americans
(06:30):
to do it.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So they do. They have mechanized since this case, this
UH class action suit in the United States, at least
they now have mechanized the harvesting of cane. It is
still harvested by hand in many other places of the world.
The reason they were continuing to do it by hand
is that they can the human cutters can get as
(06:52):
far to the ground as possible, meaning you get more
of the cane.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right now, pulling it out right exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
But they still, because it's cheaper, they still burn the
cane fields when the harvest is over, meaning it's an
ecological disaster. Every single year. We went down to these
cane fields to experience it for ourselves. We parked in
the parking lot of an elementary school and they were
burning the cane fields and as soon as we got
(07:20):
out of the car, I was covered in this thick,
greasy ash. And I looked to the playground and all
of the playground toys and the Merry Go Round and
stuff were covered in this ash. It is it is.
It looks like the beginning of terminator. And so they
(07:42):
only did that here in the States because of that
class action lawsuit where the cane cutters were trying to
get back the wages that were taken from them. So yeah,
it's it's just this. I mean to think that we
in the United States, this is this is the way
we brought these these workers over from Jamaica to have
(08:03):
them cut the sugar cane down from us, and this
is the way we treated them like this was their
American experience.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And this was the eighties and the nineties. Yeah, meaning
that again the past is far more recent than it
looks in the rear view mirror. I'd love to talk
a little more about those workers. One thing that I
really respect here is Episode one, A Big Sugar. Like
from the jump, we're diving into these stories and for
(08:31):
people who are not familiar with the sugar industry, you know,
other than like their pack of Domino sugar they get
at the grocery store. For people who are unfamiliar with
how this is made, it's a harsh awakening, Like could
you tell us a little bit about why cane cutting
is so often called the hardest job in America? You've
(08:52):
alluded to some of this, like the medieval chain mail,
the idea that these guys some refer to cane cutting
as going to war. But what does the average person
need to know about this profession? As it was?
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Then?
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yeah, again, a stock of sugar cane is incredibly thick,
Like if you've ever had a piece of bamboo, like
the bamboo you see like in your grocery store, if
you get a little bias of bamboos, that's not what
it looks like bamboo that maybe a panda bear snacks on.
(09:29):
It's thick wood. It is thick and hard, and it
takes like serious strength. They would in order to before
these workers were given the go ahead to be shipped
to the United States to work here, they were given
incredibly intrusive physical exams. They stripped them naked, they peered
(09:51):
into every corner of their body to make sure that
they were physically capable of doing so. And even then
many of them did not make it through a season.
It is brutal work because cutting this cane they would
have they would grab it with their with their arm,
and with the other arm they would slash down with
this machete to try to cut through. And it takes
(10:11):
power in your body in order to make it through
this cane. And again it is very hot. And the
leaves themselves, these are they have these leafy fronds coming
off there. They kind of slash and you will get
little slashes in your arms, little cuts in your arms
as you're going through the cane. It's it's planted very
(10:32):
close together. If you've ever been in a cornfield, for example,
you can get lost in a cornfield quite quite easily.
It's very much the same thing. And you're just all
day long, for hour after hour after hour, going down
these rows of cane and just methodically grabbing cane and
cutting and grabbing in cane and cutting and throwing. And
(10:53):
when I say throwing, these these canes weigh a lot.
It is just and then you look at the dorms
in which they were living, and they were I've lost
for words. I'm literally a writer and journalist and have
been for twenty five years, and I don't even know
how to describe the places in which they were living
in which sometimes the places when in which they were
(11:15):
relieving themselves were holes in Concreteli slave quarters.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
I mean, let's be honest, I mean that's practically what
it is.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, well, let's talk about what the like what an
individual worker perhaps thought they were getting into before they left,
Right before they left for Jamaica. It sounded like to
me in the podcast, very similar to something we just
covered fishermen in Thailand, where there were sometimes coerced onto
(11:43):
a ship under false pretenses of what the job's going
to be, what their life's going to be like, just
a job opportunity right as it sold to workers often
only in this case with again I'm using the names
Power and Fidel. That's they're like nicknames. But when they
when they're told they're going to go get this job
(12:04):
in America to do this thing, what that was like
versus when they actually arrived in Palm Beach and met
for the first time the people in charge.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, you know, there's two different levels here because the
people that they're told that they're going to be paid well,
they are sold this idea that they are going to
be able to send home to their families real money.
And at the time, Jamaica was desperately poor. And I
don't need to go into the colonial history of why
(12:37):
Jamaica was desperately poor. Most people who are aware of
colonial history probably know that. So the money that I
thought that were going to be making under the H
one N one visa was going to be well worth it,
regardless of what conditions they were going to be working under.
So the people who were very first going maybe this
(12:59):
is their first trip to the United States to work
under these conditions. You're absolutely correct. Maybe they didn't realize
what they were getting into. The thing was is that
there were people who went back again and again and again,
even though they knew what they were getting into, because
things were so desperately poor in Jamaica that they continue
to sacrifice. However, they would not tell their families. When
(13:20):
you read the letters that they were writing back home
to their families, they didn't tell their families what they
were enduring. Often back in the United States.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Because they didn't want them to spend all their days worrying.
You know, are you going to come back with all
your fingers? Are you going to come back at all?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
That's right, And they would be constantly threatened that if
they didn't work hard enough, if they didn't pick up
the pace, they would be deported because these employers had
the power to send them back to Jamaica, to make
them to not only lose their jobs, but send them
out of the country immediately. That's what that meant. And
(14:01):
so they were constantly in fear of being deported out
of the United States. But you know, the money they
were making here was still better than what they had
back in Jamaica at the time, in the in the
eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And that's even minus the what do we call it
the company store mentality? Right, like these guys are charged
for transit room and board that comes out before they
ever see a cent in a paycheck that actually goes
to them, which which could be doable other jobs do that.
So long as you can predict what you're actually being paid, right,
(14:40):
that's the key piece.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, you know I have to there's no way to
say this for sure. I can't as a journalist confirm this,
but it appears as though the payment system was purposely obtuse.
It was confusing the way that things were being paid.
In other words, there was a confusing system of were
(15:02):
they being paid by the ton, were they being paid
by the hour? They were supposed to be paid by
a certain system under the VISA system, but when you
actually looked at their hourly sheets, it was being paid
by a certain a different system, and it was very,
very difficult to understand how they were being paid. And
(15:22):
we tried to explain this over the course of the podcast,
and you can kind of get the sense of why
the lawyers who were representing them in the class action
suit were concerned that the judges wouldn't understand, and why
they were kind of walking through it step by step
by step to try to explain to the court, and
(15:42):
why when they finally got to a jury it kind
of got it all muddled up. The juries didn't quite
get it.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Under a visa program like that, are there different stipulations
that maybe allow for a more vague system of pay
and that doesn't necessarily line up with labor laws, you
know for US citizens. I'm just I don't know, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
What you need no.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I mean they have to be paid a certain amount per.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Hour, but somehow they found a loophole to make that office.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
They always make loop poles, and in fact, in the end,
the only way that we focus on one particular company,
it was actually owned by the fun Huls, two brothers
who are originally two Cuban brothers who fled to Cuba
when Castro took over and their family lost everything. They
were enormously, fabulously rich in Cuba, literally owned a palace
(16:37):
there and fled to the United States. They own us Sugar,
and we focus on them because they were the ones
that kept the class action lawsuit going even when we
suspect that their legal fees exceeded the amount that they
would have had to pay the workers in back pay,
(17:01):
and they ended up having to rely on an outdated
law that dated back hundreds of years to like colonial
America in order to in order to avoid having to
pay back pay to the law to the workers.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Atrocious unclean k.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Can you tell us just about how that class action
lawsuit began, like who started it and how did it?
How did it come to fruition.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
So there were some public interest lawyers who had been
representing immigrant workers in Texas and other areas, and they
got a tip from an anonymous person who said, you know,
(17:48):
these people are being underpaid, and you know, it was very,
very difficult to even speak to the workers, and they
described how difficult it was to even get close to them.
The sugar companies prevented you from even speaking to these workers,
even getting close to them in the fields. They would
have security guards escort you off of the of the
(18:15):
property if you even got close to the dorms, and
you couldn't even talk to them. And so it took
quite a long time for them to even get this
case going, but they eventually were able to. They had
to make a lot of trips to Jamaica to even
get clients for this.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And I just want to shout out one of my
favorite moments in some of these interviews you do is
when we learn that one of these lawyers he's he's
very steady and very like affable and not shaken by
a lot of things that would terrify ordinary people, Like
he gets a some kind of death threat one time,
(18:55):
and he replies, well, I on town right now, but
I can give you a call when i'm back, and
that's uh, this is the guy I sometimes referred to
as the Harvard Idiot in Texas.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, a guy calls him up and says, Hey, come
down to my property. I need to I'm gonna kill you.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Come over for me, pencil it in, come out of town.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I can't make it.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Amazing well, and also the forgive me I'm blinking on
the name, but the journalists that he kind of starts
the story off, who has had a history as a
rock musician and various other kind of occupations before he
landed in journalism. He is told basically, you're never going
to talk to one of these people. You're never going
to talk to a cane cutter. And he goes try
(19:42):
me and then and it is difficult, you know, by design,
but he eventually does, you know, cut through. No pun
intended there either. But how how are they able to
keep people from these workers, you know, and keep them
so isolated in a way that just frankly really does
like slavery, like having kept humans, you know, that they're
(20:04):
kept away from anyone that could possibly help them.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
I mean, I gotta tell you, even you know, even
we tried to even talk to the either one of
the found huls Alfie and pepefn hul of of US Sugar.
And it just is so striking that if you have
money in America you don't have to answer questions ever
about anything. That's just the truth. We have a long
montage in there of how how hard we tried to
(20:31):
talk to one of them. We tried even just running
into them outside their building. We went, I went to
their home, I went to their yacht, We went to
their building. We tried even just dropping off a letter
at the front desk of their office. We couldn't even
get to the receptionist. Yeah, you, if you have money
(20:52):
in America, you don't have to answer for the decisions
you make or what you do.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And this is I want to stand this point for
a second. Two because the the incredibly sophisticated stonewalling here.
It does sound like something out of a thriller novel
for a lot of folks. You're listening and you can say, well,
this sounds a little larger than life. But I'm believe
(21:20):
was the documentarian Stephanie and Alec, the journalists, they're working
in this field, they're they're trying to talk with these workers.
As you said before, the before the legal case and
the traveling to Jamaica and these got these folks end
up having to resort basically to trade craft. They have
to pull some spycraft moves just to get in.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
The one thing that struck me, I really want to
ask you about is our documentarian here is very explicit
and very very certain that the sugar companies use their
influence to push law enforcement right to intimidate them and
(22:05):
harass them. And she's got to keep picking up like
she's switching rental cars out, which is another spy move.
Did you were your team ever feel unsafe or threatened
in your investigation because it seems like these guys are
not playing around.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
So you're talking about Stephanie Black who eventually made the
documentary H two Worker, And yeah, she was followed and
she had to be very very very careful. We did
not have that experience. Now, I will say, we knew
(22:42):
that happened to her, and so we weren't, you know,
we didn't. We were already prepared, you know what I mean,
Like we already knew going in that to take to
take measures. And we got in, got out. We we
made short trips, we made two day trips. You know.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
How many burner phones did you go through?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Celeste?
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
And you know, and I'm not Stephanie Black. I'm Celeste Hedley,
a member of sag Aftra, longtime NPR. You know, come
at me, try me, you know, uh, bring it on.
So I'd like to see see a try So it's
(23:38):
a different world for you. And and you know, to
a certain extent, it's the work of somebody like Stephanie
Black and Alec I can build on their work, right
that then you bring in somebody who has a little
bit more standing that makes it possible to where then
they are going to end up with somebody who has
(24:00):
a little bit not equal power, but a little bit
more standing to wear nice.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Tribe buster to oppress, a little bit.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
More difficult to push around. And then of course, big sugar,
you know, we have iHeartMedia behind us, we have Imagine
Audio behind us, like nice, Yeah, exactly, give it a go.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Is is Vanity Fair a part of this at all?
Or is that just Marie Brenner.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Vanity Fair published the original article and so and you know,
Marie Brenner is no joke, right, I mean, we're talking
about a legendary journalist and so absolutely nothing in that
original article was not fact checked a billion times and
absolutely rock solid, you know, and you know, including the
(24:55):
very opening scene, I mean the opening just to prove
how much power the these brothers have, the Funhole brothers.
The opening scene in Marie Brandish's article is where Bill
Clinton is breaking up with Monica Lewinsky, like he has
called her into the Oval office to break up with her,
and his aid calls him and says, there's a phone
call for you, and Bill Clinton says, I'm doing something
(25:18):
and he says it's Alfie fun Hul and he says,
I'll take that call.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
That's how powerful these two guys are. And it just
is there to show you the fact that for so
many generations, sugar has been operating under the cloak the
shadow of darkness and manipulating our lives. And this podcast,
like the title of this podcast is perfect. It is
(25:45):
stuff they don't want us to know about in so
many ways, it is time. It's time for reckoning for
this sugar industry. It really is.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
You get into this in the podcast too, but just
the idea of sugar as part of our diet and
just the way it's been pushed on like children's burials,
and you know, the marketing behind all of it, let
alone all of the dark goings on behind the scenes,
and how it actually you know, comes to be in
those products. I think it's fascinating. And you draw a
really interesting parallel between you know, the history of slavery
(26:17):
in our country, you know, and and those conditions that
didn't change a hell of a lot, like a lot
of things, like you know, we just sort of converted
prison labor to what we were getting out of slave labor.
You see a lot of these loopholes in American history.
Could you talk a little bit about that and that
parallel that you kind of see, you know, into that
transition between you know, doing it kind of through the
(26:37):
slave labor, the slave trade, and then kind of figuring
out a way around it, but basically keeping it the same.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
I mean, well, first of all, slavery always was about
control of labor. You know, Racism was invented in order
to justify control of labor, not the other way around.
And so there is a direct line between sugar and slavery,
and it is still wage slavery to today. You cannot
(27:06):
separate the sugar on our table from slavery, you can't.
And so today, even today, the ways in which we
have manipulated the public, and even if you look at
the ways, you know, you think about, you know, the
reckoning that came for tobacco, the reckoning that has come
(27:27):
for the pharmat pharmaceutical industry in a small way, in
the ways that they have manipulated even science, and that
has happened in a certain way with like eugenics, in
the way that they manipulated things to you know, to
try to make it look like racism was justified scientifically.
That was again to try to manipulate labor, to say
(27:51):
that certain races were designed to labor. Right, that's connected
to sugar. They were designed to stand in the field
and cut your hane all day. But also in terms
of the science of our food and the way we eat.
You can even just go back just a couple decades
and look at the way that they manipulated our sugar
(28:12):
science science to say that it was not sugar that
was making us fat, it was fat.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
You can find you can find these ads that say,
if sugar it makes you obese, then why are there
so many skinny kids? Kids? Eat more sugar in anybody
that is called fat.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
It makes clearly it makes you fat. And now we
know that there's good fat in there. You know, we
have things like keto dyet and all of that.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
You know. I even had ads that at that pedaled
sugar as a way to control your appetite. They said
sugar might just be the willpower you need to curb
your appetite. They had sugar advertising sugar as the quick
energy you need to resist eating too much. They had
(28:56):
advertised sugar as a healthy way to eat less. They
had advertised sugar as not dangerous to your teeth. Right. So,
there are so many ways in which they have manipulated
the American public. They put sugar into literally everything you
mentioned before that I tried to get sugar out of
(29:17):
my diet. I a didn't have the time for it
because I had to end up making all of my
own stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
It's a second job.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah, And I didn't have the money. It became so
expensive to try to buy all the specialty things that
I needed in order to get rid of sugar. It's
in everything. It's in everything.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor,
and then we'll return with Celeste Hedley and we're back Celeste.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Is there a they in the stuff they don't want
you to know of sugar? Is there like an alliance
of some sort or a group, like a lobbying group
or anything.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I mean, yeah, there's the trade industries. I mean there's that.
There's a very small number of sugar companies that make
up the sugar industry, and there's the lobbying group for sugar.
There was a response from the Sugar Trade Group to
our podcast saying that you know, this class action suit
(30:22):
happened a long time ago, and now they're very modernized
and they employ a lot of people. All those things
are true.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
But but.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
If it's if it's a group like that, they are
the one. So I guess there are individuals, like you said,
Alfie was able to get Bill Clinton on the phone
as an individual, powerful human being. But it does feel
like if you've got a group that is making a
lot of money subsidizing their product with you know, super
cheap labor at least for a long time, and with
(30:52):
government funding, right, you can probably spend a lot more
money lobbying, which I'm assuming that's what happens. I don't
know that see. That to me just feels it's the
kind of creepy thing that we talk about a lot
on the show, where a large group, a fairly small
group in this instance, can wield so much power with
(31:14):
lawmakers and even with the executive branch. You still got
that sense.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Yeah, I mean, this is a small group of people.
And let me tell you how bad of a deal
this is for the United States taxpayer. It's so bad
that the Cato Institute referred to them as a cartel.
I mean, anyway, we give billions of dollars to the
(31:42):
US sugar industry to plant sugar. We pay them billions
to plant it, to grow it, as though it's not
a profitable industry, right, Like, as though people wouldn't we
have to prioritize it, right, It's not like it's kale.
People are going to buy sugar, you know, you don't
have to incentivize it. So we pay them billions to
(32:04):
plant it.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
We buy them yachts.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
No, then sugar.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Is more expensive in the United States than pretty much
every other wealthy nation in the world, So we're paying
them billions. Then we're paying more for the product in
the grocery store, and they are then carrying out environmental
disasters like burning down their fields, and the environmental costs
(32:34):
on the other hand, for example, the Everglades are total recks,
are probably going to end up cost in the US
taxpayers another billions, if not trillions, plus the climate change costs,
so there's another cost as well. And then you come
to the healthcare costs, because when you cover towns in
ash you're talking about a massive cost. And then of
(32:56):
course there's the human cost. So we are.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Of the consuming the product itself. Let's not forget I mean,
which again.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Which again, So if you start counting this all up,
it's a it's a pretty bad deal.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Why are we doing it?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It's a good deal for the sugar barons since they're
still around. But that's like one of the questions, you know,
like how how does this deal come to be? You
know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (33:28):
Like how do we say enough?
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Contribution?
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Shout it out? In World War Two because we were
afraid that, you know, we were all bought in on
the fact that sugar wasn't necessary was needed for energy,
that especially for our soldiers, that they would need that
that cheap energy burst in order to keep their energy going.
For all the athletic you know things that they were doing. Okay,
(33:55):
so they put all this money into the sugar industry
to subsidize it to make sure that we wouldn't ever
have to rely on other countries in order to keep
sugar in the United States. So that's how it started
in World War Two, and it has just kept going
because the sugar barons have continued to grease to butter
both sides of these bread giving very liberally to both
(34:17):
the Republicans and the Democrats to such an extent that
it has just been seen as a sacred cow. And
also the American public just has look, as we say,
as we say in the podcast, the Farm Bill is
just not a sexy piece of legislation. People don't pay
any attention to this, and that's really one of the
major purposes of this podcast, and it's why we brought
(34:40):
it out this year because the Farm Bill only comes
up for reconsideration every five years, and it's up for
reconsideration right now, and it's time. It is time to
stop paying billions of dollars to people to grow this
product that they would grow anyway, and then pay for
it again in the growth store and pay for it
(35:01):
again to in an environment, and pay for it again
at the doctor's office, and pay for it again and
again and again and again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I wonder if we were paying so much more at
the grocery store. Let's say, I don't know exactly how
much you know, a certain amount of sugar costs right now,
but if that was doubled, let's say, or even tripled,
I wonder if that would in like really have a
ripple effect, a beneficial effect to people not using sugar
(35:32):
as much at home, and also would increase the price
of you know, highly sugared products that are giving us well,
they're giving us all heart disease, and I know, as
you said, diabetes and fatty liver disease and all these things.
I don't know, I think you I selest I can
I could see that working really well?
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Yeah? Maybe so. I mean, the US has guaranteed sugar
growers a price of sugar for a really, really long time.
They've guaranteed that they will get a certain price for sugar.
I mean, yeah, I mean, but look at this, Look
at the look at the uproar when when Bloomberg tried
(36:11):
to put a sugar tax on soda.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, remember that the vice tax didn't
uh didn't jibe with the public, And there were several
there were several PR firms more than willing to push
back against Bloomberg's move, and they somehow had a lot
of money to do it. Yeah, just pointing that part out.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Yeah, these these these these ground swell of consumer anger about.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Sure, yeah, well what are we gonna do besides, like,
if we're not putting sugar in everything, if we're taxing
all the sugar, what are we going to use aspartame?
I don't know if everybody's heard w h o is
is coming out again saying hey, guys, maybe aspartain's not
a great idea, And then the FDA says, no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
We're the ones who approved it. It's good.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
But yeah, there we got a call, right you. FDA
didn't reply until they checked in with some folks.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
It's also not the same. I mean, the idea of
a diet soda exists because it is an alternative to sugar,
you know, So it's like, yeah, also just can't be
diet soda. Then what do you have to compare it to?
Then when what do you get to have for a treat,
you know. I mean it's just so foundationally, you know,
entrenched in our culture, like with the culinary cooking shows,
baking shows, all of this stuff. No one's going to
(37:26):
just stop using sugar and switch to I mean, it's
like I think that Genie is already out of the bottle.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I don't know, but you know what.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I will say this having gone through I mean I
went without sugar basically for six months, and I will
say that it was hard, but I will also say
that surprisingly, it didn't take me very long to sort
of lose my taste for sugar and realize that pretty
quickly you start realizing that you can suddenly taste the
(37:55):
real taste of things.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah, what was What was it like when you had
When did you have anything that you ate like a
month seven or something where you thought, WHOA, how much
sugar is in this?
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah? Like, first of all, there's things that have sugar,
like beef, jerky like tea. Tea does not need sugar.
Things like bread, Why the does bread have sugar in it?
There's all kinds of things. Chicken nuggets, Why the sorry
(38:28):
nuggets have sugar in them? And people put sugar in
Italian dressing. You know, there are so many things that
have sugar in them, and then when you start taking
them out, you're like, oh, this tastes so much better
when it's not.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Sweet, like you use f bomb Celesti, it's delight, Like
what the holy.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
My friends who are from other parts of the world,
that's one of their main complaints. They say, I can't
buy any bread in the US that isn't somehow also cake, Yeah,
like what the.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Like exactly and when you start eating bread that tastes
like I don't know, bread like it's and I will
say that that has lasted for me like a I
make all my own dressings. I do make my own
bread because like what the But what about.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
Like natural sugars. There's natural sugars in fruits and things.
You know, there are ways to get a similar effect
just by you know, the natural sugars that are contained
within you know, even like.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Oh yeah, of course, but in order to use those
in your like your baking and things, you have to
buy and also in order to use in order to
get those to use in your baking, you have to
like track down these manufacturers who are not connected to this,
like wage slavery. Blah blah blah blah blah. There's like
a company called whole some that are like, as implied
(40:03):
by the name, not connected to this whole horrifying industry.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
But see the supply chain, you can a.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Relatively expensive I'll put it you this way. The US
economy loses a billion dollars a year because of the
US sugar program, a billion dollars a year, and some
economists estimate that the US sugar program causes somewhere between
seventeen to twenty thousand people to become unemployed on an
annual basis.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
I guess, I guess that's where I don't understand, is like,
does it seem like we're in the business of losing
a billion dollars a year? You know, the government's pretty
stingy for the most part when it comes to things
like that, like where is this hostage situation taking place?
Like who is holding the gun to Uncle Sam's head
that is forcing us to continue with this horrible deal
(40:50):
that is across the board horrible that it seems to
be quantifiably bad.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
So as your the title of your show implies, this
is they don't want you to know. This is not
how they present it right. You know, politicians also don't
read the fine print, and that's not how they present it.
They instead say, this is how many people they employ.
We're just farmers, We're just American farmers. We are if
(41:18):
you read the Alfhi Funhoul and Peppi fun whole story,
they are immigrants who made their way up through their
own grit, and they're they they're the classic American dream story.
That's their story.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
That's a good pr you know, we should call Pixar
and get that one made. But that's also that's also
so intentionally, so insidiously and purposely misleading. You know, I'm
really glad you mentioned the idea of the politicians interacting
with quote unquote farm interest, because I don't think a
lot of Americans are aware just how monopolized that has become.
(41:57):
Like every time I hear a politician of any ideological
stripe talk about, what, you know, working for small farmers,
I have to try not to laugh, because what we
need to realize is so many of those quote unquote
small farms were long ago bought out by larger, larger
interests that have a lot of weight. To your point,
(42:19):
they have a lot of weight to pull. Do you
think part of the problem not just comes from like
legacy and tradition and dependency from World War Two? But
could part of it be the relatively constrained goal horizon
of politicians, Like how you know it's politically it's very
difficult for a congress person, someone on a local level,
(42:42):
or even even the president honestly to really support a
decision that is not going to bear fruit for you know,
within two to four years, right, So is that part
of it the time horizon? Does that make it tougher
for them to break the cycle?
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Maybe? I mean, perhaps I think it's more about the
fact that politics voters Homo sapiens always has and ever
will be more motivated by fear than positive feelings, always
has been and ever will be. That's our species, and
(43:21):
that's our neurology, and that's how the amygdala works. And
therefore politicians know that they can drum up voters by
talking about Americans and farmers and the threat to the
American way, and and that's how they can get voters
(43:46):
to the polls, and they can simplify everything down into
very very simple terms, and they don't have to talk
about the phosphorus runoff from the sugarcane fields, and how
that is causing sawgrass to completely overwhelm the everglades and
ruin the environment, and how that's leading to climate change,
and how that's going to cost trillions of dollars to combat,
(44:09):
and how that's going to fall on the most vulnerable
in US to pay for and how they don't have
the money to pay for it and have that's a
result of inequality and blah blah blah. I mean, you know,
who has the time to explain all of that and
who cares?
Speaker 5 (44:21):
Isn't there also another way of creating sugar by processing
sugar beets that doesn't involve harvesting sugar cane and this
brutal labor system.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
Our sugar beats more environmentally friendly, not necessarily, so that's
not I will say this sugar production from Dutch beat sugar,
which I assume is what you mean, does produce quite
a bit less CO two and those little fine particles
(44:54):
that get into the air than cane sugar. It also
uses a lot less water, So yes, beat sugar is
much more sustainable than cane sugar. Is it does it
take less land? I'm not sure. I don't know the
answer to that.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
Yeah, I'm not I'm not trying. I only bring it
up because you'll probably remember the story that was very
big in Georgia and the early aughts, the Imperial Sugar
Refinery explosion that was a product of poor conditions here
at home, you know, where the stuff is being refined
and created and put into the packages that we then
find on the shelves. I believe you know, upwards of
(45:35):
a dozen people were killed, and they were you know,
hugely injured. If they weren't killed. There was a whole
big story because where I was covering at the time,
there was a big burn unit at the at the
Medical College of Georgia, which was I'm sorry it was
at the time called like Augusta State University. There was
a medical facility associated with it. So a lot of
those folks were you know, scent there. But I don't
(45:57):
know that was an isolated event or are there other
of refineries having unsafe conditions as well that you've There are.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Many of them, you know, there are many of them.
I mean, we're you know, anytime that you have that
amount of particles going off into the air, anytime that
you have something that is a refinery, which always means heat,
which always means grinding. There's going to be unsafe conditions.
And anytime that you have poorly paid workers and a
(46:27):
lot of them, you know there's going to be danger.
You know, I mean I think that. And not only that,
but anytime that you have industries that are pushing for
less regulation and you have a government bodies where they
are severely understaffed, and that includes the government body that
(46:47):
oversees agricultural production, there's a lot of danger.
Speaker 5 (46:53):
Okay, let's take a quick break here, a word from
our sponsor, and then jump right back in with Celeste.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And we've returned before we move on, because there is
a there, There is a twist here. There's also another
show that we definitely want to talk a little bit about,
uh that has that is also held by you, Celeste.
One of the big questions that I think is on
everybody's mind is when you listen to Big Sugar, which
(47:28):
in my experiences is the best investigation of its kind
in this industry, when you when we when we listen
to this, what do we hope people can take away
from the show? What is there? We're all about empowerment, right, So,
knowing the problems of the sugar industry, are there things
or steps that you know, Jane and John Q public
(47:51):
or whatever can take to help mitigate or address these injustices.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
I mean, I hope the first thing that people do
is call their representative and their senator about the Farm Bill.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Okay, first thing first.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
The Farm Bill is up for reconsideration right now, and
it's time to take action. It only comes up for reconsideration,
as I said, every five years, So I'm looking at
my watch here.
Speaker 5 (48:16):
Time is now, and you're saying, as it's written currently,
it's just it's way too many dispensations for these big companies.
It makes it way too easy for them to get around,
you know, safe conditions. And you were pushing for rewriting
it in a way that would take them to task
or that would in some way improve things.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
So when we talk about how much money, how much
is in the Farm Bill for US sugar, and when
we talk about the fact that there's billions for US
sugar in the Farm Bill, then what we're talking about
is billions in your money for the US sugar program.
(48:59):
That's your money. So when you also hear politicians say
we don't have money to house the homeless. When you
say that we don't have money for schools to pay
teachers more, to pay firefighters more. We don't have money
to build new to resurface highways or build new bridges,
(49:22):
but we have money to give billions to us sugar
and to Alfi von hul who owns a yacht that's
worth I think over thirty or forty million dollars. It's
time to call you representative and your senator.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, and it's really important. It's really important you do
it as an individual whoever you are listening right now,
because there's so many advocacy groups that are going to
be a part of that farm bill, fighting against the
things that are probably in all of our best interest.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah, exactly. And you know your money, it's your money,
it's your money.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
You like the yacht, you should like the yacht. Folks
paid for it.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
We recently did a panel with some folks about criminal
justice reform, and there are several lawyers on the panel
whose job it is to seek this kind of stuff,
and they pointed out that these calls matter, that if
enough people call in and it makes some noise, it's
going to change the conversation. To some degree, you are
not powerless. So I just think that's it's easy to
(50:21):
feel overwhelmed and completely, you know, like your hands are tied.
But these things do matter.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
And they really do that agency that we all have listening.
If you're located in the United States, that is arguably
another thing they don't want you to know is that
it does. Your voice does matter. And there's a really
beautiful moment where you hear people in these advocacy groups
inevitably say that something like what you're saying, Celeste. You know,
(50:49):
it might feel it might feel like you're just emptying
an ocean with a bucket or spitting in the wind
when you are that one person making that one call.
But if we move in mo that we are not
one person, right. And I even heard no friend of
mine who used to be in the bellay would say
like you would you get one call, right, and then
(51:10):
you get twelve calls and now something has to happen,
especially if they all come in a close amount of time.
So it is it is at least inspiring to know
that we the public are not powerless in this situation,
even though we have been brainwashed across generations I would argue.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Uh, we've been mouthwashed, We've been there.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Worth it also listening Halatosi's story for another day. But
we should we should absolutely talk. We would be remiss,
remiss if we did not mention another project do you
have you have helmed and created that is of immense
interest to every longtime listener. Of stuff they don't want
(51:56):
you to know is less. Could you tell us a
bit about the Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 4 (52:01):
Yeah, speaking of things that you actually can do something about.
I mean, that's another thing that is a message of
Freeway Phantom. The Freeway Phantom is about the first serial
killer in Washington, d C. That we know of, even
though most people don't know about the Freeway Phantom. And
the reason we don't know about the Freeway Phantom is
because he murdered black girls in a poor and low
(52:26):
income neighborhoods. That's why people have never heard of him.
He murdered as many people as a son of Sam
and yet these were young, I mean as young as
like ten and twelve years old black girls in low
and low income neighborhoods and middle income neighborhoods in Washington,
(52:48):
D C. In the early nineteen seventies. He was never caught.
And the reason I say that people could have changed
that is because if these murders had been given the
attention that they deserved even at the time, if word
had gotten out, they maybe could have kept some of
(53:13):
these girls safe. These girls were snatched off the street
in broad daylight as they walked a block maybe two
blocks away from their homes in some cases, as they
were walking to the grocery store. If parents had known,
these were not neglectful parents, These were not bad kids.
These were good kids in their school gym uniforms, in
(53:34):
their own neighborhoods. And these were lives that needed to
matter and didn't, and they were forgotten. So this is
one of the reasons why not just for me, but
for the entire team at Tenderfoot TV and at iHeart.
This is why this is so personal for us and
(53:56):
so important for us, is because these you need to
even fifty years later, their names deserve to be said
and remembered. It is important that these girls' lives matter
today as much as they did then, and that it
means something that we understand why law enforcement and every
(54:22):
community and every media outlet needs to take these things seriously,
when a child disappears, when somebody disappears, that's important and
it needs attention, and it needs immediate attention within those
first twenty four hours. And that's something every neighborhood can
take part in. You know. One of the things that
that people talk about is that one of the ways
(54:45):
that you keep everybody safe, especially children, is by getting
to know your neighbors, learned their names, learn who lives
in those homes. That's a tiny, small thing that you
can do to keep people safe, just on your own street.
So when we're talking about these little things that you
can do, that's one thing that you can do today.
Stop listen. When you stop listening here, walk down your
(55:08):
street and learn who lives in your neighborhood. Easy, pasy done.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
And like think about how that increases, Like I don't know,
the community value of just where you live. Like being
able to help your neighbor if they need some help,
maybe they will help you if you need some help.
That's amazing. I love that message.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Also makes things cooler too, because then you get into
like block parties and you know you can hang out,
which I love. I love hanging out anywhere where I
don't have to pay money to be there.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
So that's that's cool.
Speaker 3 (55:41):
That's a huge cool part of block parties for me
and barbecues. But I would say also on a little
bit more serious note about that, it does help us
clock anomalous occurrences much more quickly. Right, you know your neighbors,
you know when someone's a stranger. And that's not to
(56:04):
you know, inculcate paranoia in everyone, but it is. It's
a form of being aware of your surroundings and sless.
That also what a bookend because that also goes back
to some of your long standing work about human connection
and communication with people you know.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And I.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Have to say, listening to listening to Freeway Phantom, the
infuriating thing is just as you describe, you know what
I mean. They I don't know if you could say
law enforcement dropped the ball, because that would be like
saying they picked it up in the first place.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
You know, to one extent, they worked hard. I mean,
I went through the boxes of evidence, They interviewed hundreds
of people, They followed they did, they followed leads, that
is absolutely the case. But they also immediately made it
assumptions that these parents were neglectful. They immediately they made
assumptions that these twelve year old girls might have run
(57:05):
away with their boyfriends. They made comments about these girls
being wearing provocative clothing when they were in their school
gym uniforms. So yeah, did they drop the ball. Yeah.
They also took these girls' lives lightly because they were black,
because they were living in poor neighborhoods. They made assumptions
(57:27):
about them, and then they immediately got distracted by the
Vietnam protests, which were a bunch of I don't again,
I'm not trying to stereotype, but for the most part,
they were a whole lot of middle class, college white
kids protesting the war, which was important, it was absolutely important,
but it also took incredibly needed attention away from these girls'
(57:51):
lives who had been murdered and again he kept killing.
And if they had gotten the attention and resources that
they needed, they might have saved the girls who got
killed later and later and later and later. They could
have caught this guy and prevented him from killing yet
more girls. And this is it. Wouldn't this story wouldn't
(58:12):
be important. We wouldn't be doing this podcast today. If
this worn't be still, if this weren't still happening.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Yes, Now, well let's talk because I think it goes
back to community and it's a parallel full disclosure. I'm
an ep on Freeway phantom, but it's a problem I
saw with Atlanta Monster and the cases with the Atlanta
missing and murdered, where there's a distrust of those who
are supposed to be taking protecting your community right, a
(58:41):
complete distrust so that when even if somebody knows something
and it was an eyewitness to a child being abducted,
it's highly unlikely that that person is going to come
forward and actually speak with a police officer and give
that story because there's distrust between that individual and that institution.
(59:02):
It feels to me like that is still a major issue.
What have you found the list?
Speaker 4 (59:07):
Yeah, and I think that's also the case. And I
forgive me, Matt May I've forgotten now how much the
reward is up to now.
Speaker 2 (59:15):
It is now at three hundred thousand dollars because it
was matched.
Speaker 4 (59:19):
Yeah, by iHeart and Tenderfoot Right. So the reason for
that is because we know for sure, because we did
these interviews with members of the community, we know that
they did not tell the police things We know they
didn't talk to the police. In some cases, we know
they weren't forthcoming with the police, And so we know
(59:41):
somebody knows something, and that person may still, fifty years on,
be alive. We also know that they may not still
be in Washington, DC, which is why it's so important
that this podcast be heard by as many people as
possible over the country. Maybe this person's living in Oregon. Now,
they may be living somewhere else entirely, and we want
them to hear this podcast and call and get in
(01:00:05):
touch because somebody knows something and they may not realize
that that piece of information may be exactly the piece
of information that could bring closure to these families. And
so that's why the reward has been doubled, because these
families deserve to know what happened to their daughters. They
(01:00:26):
deserve to know, you know, I mean, how horrible to
not only lose your daughters this way and have their
bodies discarded like garbage on the side of a road,
but then to not actually have answers about who, why,
what happened to them, you know, and have so little
(01:00:47):
invested into getting those answers that fifty years on, they
still have no resolution, and so that's why the production
companies doubled that reward is because we know somebody knows
something and it's worth trying. It's worth it's worth.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
Trying, agreed, And that's maybe that's the message that we
take with us at the close of our conversation today.
It is possible to make a difference as an individual,
and it's not only possible, but it is one of
the best and most noble things a person can attempt
(01:01:27):
to do. So we want to thank you again, celest
for all your work bringing this justice to light. You know,
these shows are coming out back to back to back,
so I can only imagine what crazy pandemonium your calendar
looks like. And you've made time for us and all
our fellow conspiracy realists. Where can people go to learn more?
(01:01:51):
Not just about Big Sugar, not just about Freeway Phantom,
but about all your many other projects.
Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
I mean, for the meantime, Twitter, maybe I have a
I have a website, but because it's only me updating it,
it is very irregularly updated. But yeah, the the social
(01:02:21):
media I most likely update is Instagram, which is mostly
pictures of my dog, and in the interim Twitter, but
we'll see how long it takes till.
Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
That implodes for sure, and listen to Big Sugar and
Freeway Phantom. You can find them wherever you get your
podcasts or your favorite shows. Thank you, and really like
listen to them now Freeway Phantom. I think in this moment,
when you're hearing this episode, you can listen to every
episode of Freeway Phantom, as well as some of the
(01:02:51):
bonus episodes that are.
Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Coming out, one of which just dropped this week. I
believe that would be I don't even want to give
the title because we're not going to spoil it, but yes,
thank you so much less. We can't wait to learn
more about Big Sugar and here's hoping we can make
a difference.
Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Here my pleasures. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
This was such a fantastic conversation. You guys know, we
went a lot of places and for everybody listening, even
though we talked in depth about Big Sugar in the
sugar industry, there is so much more in the show.
You really should check it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Out definitely, and also check out Freeway Phantom because there's
I mean, it's a winding story that takes you a
lot of different places, and there's a new profile of
the killer inside that show, and it's worth your time.
Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
And we're also I guess since in full disclosure, you know,
as you said, Matt, you ep Tenderfoot shows including Freeway Phantom.
We also you might hear some familiar voices cameo in a.
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Couple of things.
Speaker 5 (01:04:00):
All of us are in.
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
All of us are in Freeway fans. I think that's right.
Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
Yeah, it's a pleasure to work on and a real
pleasure to talk to. Celast be a big fan of hers,
as we all have for quite some time. A really
uniquely talented journalist and storyteller, and really generous with her
time today, so we thank her specifically, and we thank
you for tuning in. If you want to get at
us online, you can do so. We exist at the
(01:04:25):
handle Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter and YouTube and Facebook, Conspiracy
Stuff Show on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
If you'd like to call us with some thoughts, you can.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.
You've got three minutes. It's voicemail. Give yourself a cool
name and let us know if we can use your
message and voice on the air. If you don't want
to do that, why not send us a good old
fashioned email. We read everything we get.
Speaker 7 (01:04:52):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noel.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul Michig, control decand most importantly, you are here.
And that makes this the stuff they don't want you
to know. Today's conversation is much more than a spoonful
of sugar. But we should start out by saying, I know,
I know, no hell up behind that sugar is amazing
(00:50):
and a lot of the stuff about sugar that people
don't know is frankly terrified. We've all been there. Every
few months, it seems, for instance, a study comes out
arguing for or against some aspect of sugar consumption, usually
focused on a person's individual health. And in the US,
as many people have pointed out, it seems like sugar
(01:10):
is in almost everything, and it's a multi bought, billion
dollar industry. It's fraught with injustice and corruption. We're learning
this today in a conversation with an expert in this
disturbing story, the journalist, the author, the creator of the
new podcast Big Sugar, as well as a podcast called
(01:31):
Freeway Phantom Celeste Headley. Celeste, thank you so much for
joining us today.
Speaker 4 (01:35):
My pleasure. It's good to be here.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Just so you know, Celestie, I think we've had this
conversation before, but for the three hosts of this podcast,
we listen to a lot of MPR, especially back in
the day and when we were working in Buckhead, and
we listened to you a lot. So it's very cool
to have you with us.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
Oh thanks, that's really kind.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
It's funny. Actually, my background is with public radio, with
Georgia Public Broadcasting, and I don't know if we ever
interfaced directly, but I worked with a lot of the
same folks that you did back in the day, and
I think we may have like shared a news call
once an hour.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
I go.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
So broadcasting is a is a deceptively small little this
is a very I try to tell people who are
just coming into it, like straight out of college, you know,
don't be mean to people because you are going to
be seeing them again and again and again.
Speaker 3 (02:26):
So let's get into it. As we said, you are
a veteran journalist, the prolific author. You have hosted EP
multiple present prestigious programs like What Retro Report, on PPS
on Second Thought, of course The Takeaway, and more so
for any fellow conspiracy realist tuning in saying, hey, that's
(02:46):
a very familiar voice. Now there's a reason you're feeling that.
So you've you've written books like we Need to Talk,
how to have conversations that matter, do Nothing, and of
course speaking of rape, why everybody needs to talk about
racism and how to do it. These are deep dives
into the nature of communication and connection, and that's something
(03:09):
maybe we start there because that's something that stands out
to me, at least in Big Sugar, because you're diving
deep into the history and the troubling present of the
sugar industry. You're examining aspects of it that honestly, sugar
companies probably don't want the public to know. But there's
a humanness to it, you know, there's it's so easy
(03:30):
to for our minds to gloss over when we hear
abstract stats and numbers, but this show is very personal
and it's very human, which is something I love about it.
So maybe we started that human moment. Was there something
that initially inspired your journey into the disturbing side of
(03:51):
this industry? Like you mentioned you went sugar free for
a time. You also said, you know, that's where you
learn sugar is and everything. But I'm just wondering, was
there like an AHA moment or an epiphany?
Speaker 4 (04:03):
Yeah? I think.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Look, you know, as you said, I've been a journalist
for a long time, and I get that the average
person does not have the time to follow all the
stories that they technically should, right Like everybody doesn't have
the time to know everything about all the chemicals that
are in all of our foods or all of the
industries that affect us every day. I totally understand that.
(04:28):
But every once in a while, things bubble up and
become so urgent and important that it's time to pay attention.
And sugar is one of those, like it's time and
for me, that's the thing that sort of came across
my desk, Like I began when we started doing the
interviews for this, and I started listening to the stories
(04:49):
of these cutters, these Jamaican cutters who had come over
there and cut the sugar.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Cane by hand power in fidel if you're a listener
of the show.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
And this is a brutal, brutal job. I mean they're
using machetes. I don't know how many people have ever
actually put their hands on a cane. On sugar cane,
it is thick, it is tough, it's like a piece
of wood. And to be sitting there whacking at the
sugar cane all day long with this raise or sharp machete.
(05:23):
They wear pieces of chain mail to try to protect themselves.
At the same time, they're still sometimes make mistakes, of course,
and cut themselves, cut off pieces of their fingers and
bodies and hurt themselves. They're in brutal heat and humidity.
They barely get fed. Sometimes they just get a bowl
of rice to hear that this is what they were
(05:46):
going through to get the sugar onto our tables. And
then the sugar industry, the sugar barrens, still stole their
wages from them. Yeah, I mean that's why I sweat
sugar free because I couldn't. I couldn't. I didn't want
to eat it, Like I couldn't do it. I was
like I just lost its taste for me.
Speaker 5 (06:07):
It's so interesting, how like it's one of the few crops.
I guess that there has only been a modernization to
the way that it's harvested. You know, like there's really
no magic bullet or like, you know, kind of machinery
that can do it, and you have to have this
human aspect to it. And then just to follow up,
you know, these folks that are coming in from Jamaica.
They're coming in from Jamaica because the job is so
dangerous and difficult that that these companies can't find Americans
(06:30):
to do it.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So they do. They have mechanized since this case, this
UH class action suit in the United States, at least
they now have mechanized the harvesting of cane. It is
still harvested by hand in many other places of the world.
The reason they were continuing to do it by hand
is that they can the human cutters can get as
(06:52):
far to the ground as possible, meaning you get more
of the cane.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
Right now, pulling it out right exactly.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
But they still, because it's cheaper, they still burn the
cane fields when the harvest is over, meaning it's an
ecological disaster. Every single year. We went down to these
cane fields to experience it for ourselves. We parked in
the parking lot of an elementary school and they were
burning the cane fields and as soon as we got
(07:20):
out of the car, I was covered in this thick,
greasy ash. And I looked to the playground and all
of the playground toys and the Merry Go Round and
stuff were covered in this ash. It is it is.
It looks like the beginning of terminator. And so they
(07:42):
only did that here in the States because of that
class action lawsuit where the cane cutters were trying to
get back the wages that were taken from them. So yeah,
it's it's just this. I mean to think that we
in the United States, this is this is the way
we brought these these workers over from Jamaica to have
(08:03):
them cut the sugar cane down from us, and this
is the way we treated them like this was their
American experience.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
And this was the eighties and the nineties. Yeah, meaning
that again the past is far more recent than it
looks in the rear view mirror. I'd love to talk
a little more about those workers. One thing that I
really respect here is Episode one, A Big Sugar. Like
from the jump, we're diving into these stories and for
(08:31):
people who are not familiar with the sugar industry, you know,
other than like their pack of Domino sugar they get
at the grocery store. For people who are unfamiliar with
how this is made, it's a harsh awakening, Like could
you tell us a little bit about why cane cutting
is so often called the hardest job in America? You've
(08:52):
alluded to some of this, like the medieval chain mail,
the idea that these guys some refer to cane cutting
as going to war. But what does the average person
need to know about this profession? As it was?
Speaker 5 (09:08):
Then?
Speaker 4 (09:08):
Yeah, again, a stock of sugar cane is incredibly thick,
Like if you've ever had a piece of bamboo, like
the bamboo you see like in your grocery store, if
you get a little bias of bamboos, that's not what
it looks like bamboo that maybe a panda bear snacks on.
(09:29):
It's thick wood. It is thick and hard, and it
takes like serious strength. They would in order to before
these workers were given the go ahead to be shipped
to the United States to work here, they were given
incredibly intrusive physical exams. They stripped them naked, they peered
(09:51):
into every corner of their body to make sure that
they were physically capable of doing so. And even then
many of them did not make it through a season.
It is brutal work because cutting this cane they would
have they would grab it with their with their arm,
and with the other arm they would slash down with
this machete to try to cut through. And it takes
(10:11):
power in your body in order to make it through
this cane. And again it is very hot. And the
leaves themselves, these are they have these leafy fronds coming
off there. They kind of slash and you will get
little slashes in your arms, little cuts in your arms
as you're going through the cane. It's it's planted very
(10:32):
close together. If you've ever been in a cornfield, for example,
you can get lost in a cornfield quite quite easily.
It's very much the same thing. And you're just all
day long, for hour after hour after hour, going down
these rows of cane and just methodically grabbing cane and
cutting and grabbing in cane and cutting and throwing. And
(10:53):
when I say throwing, these these canes weigh a lot.
It is just and then you look at the dorms
in which they were living, and they were I've lost
for words. I'm literally a writer and journalist and have
been for twenty five years, and I don't even know
how to describe the places in which they were living
in which sometimes the places when in which they were
(11:15):
relieving themselves were holes in Concreteli slave quarters.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
I mean, let's be honest, I mean that's practically what
it is.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Yes, well, let's talk about what the like what an
individual worker perhaps thought they were getting into before they left,
Right before they left for Jamaica. It sounded like to
me in the podcast, very similar to something we just
covered fishermen in Thailand, where there were sometimes coerced onto
(11:43):
a ship under false pretenses of what the job's going
to be, what their life's going to be like, just
a job opportunity right as it sold to workers often
only in this case with again I'm using the names
Power and Fidel. That's they're like nicknames. But when they
when they're told they're going to go get this job
(12:04):
in America to do this thing, what that was like
versus when they actually arrived in Palm Beach and met
for the first time the people in charge.
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Yeah, you know, there's two different levels here because the
people that they're told that they're going to be paid well,
they are sold this idea that they are going to
be able to send home to their families real money.
And at the time, Jamaica was desperately poor. And I
don't need to go into the colonial history of why
(12:37):
Jamaica was desperately poor. Most people who are aware of
colonial history probably know that. So the money that I
thought that were going to be making under the H
one N one visa was going to be well worth it,
regardless of what conditions they were going to be working under.
So the people who were very first going maybe this
(12:59):
is their first trip to the United States to work
under these conditions. You're absolutely correct. Maybe they didn't realize
what they were getting into. The thing was is that
there were people who went back again and again and again,
even though they knew what they were getting into, because
things were so desperately poor in Jamaica that they continue
to sacrifice. However, they would not tell their families. When
(13:20):
you read the letters that they were writing back home
to their families, they didn't tell their families what they
were enduring. Often back in the United States.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
Because they didn't want them to spend all their days worrying.
You know, are you going to come back with all
your fingers? Are you going to come back at all?
Speaker 4 (13:37):
That's right, And they would be constantly threatened that if
they didn't work hard enough, if they didn't pick up
the pace, they would be deported because these employers had
the power to send them back to Jamaica, to make
them to not only lose their jobs, but send them
out of the country immediately. That's what that meant. And
(14:01):
so they were constantly in fear of being deported out
of the United States. But you know, the money they
were making here was still better than what they had
back in Jamaica at the time, in the in the
eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
And that's even minus the what do we call it
the company store mentality? Right, like these guys are charged
for transit room and board that comes out before they
ever see a cent in a paycheck that actually goes
to them, which which could be doable other jobs do that.
So long as you can predict what you're actually being paid, right,
(14:40):
that's the key piece.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, you know I have to there's no way to
say this for sure. I can't as a journalist confirm this,
but it appears as though the payment system was purposely obtuse.
It was confusing the way that things were being paid.
In other words, there was a confusing system of were
(15:02):
they being paid by the ton, were they being paid
by the hour? They were supposed to be paid by
a certain system under the VISA system, but when you
actually looked at their hourly sheets, it was being paid
by a certain a different system, and it was very,
very difficult to understand how they were being paid. And
(15:22):
we tried to explain this over the course of the podcast,
and you can kind of get the sense of why
the lawyers who were representing them in the class action
suit were concerned that the judges wouldn't understand, and why
they were kind of walking through it step by step
by step to try to explain to the court, and
(15:42):
why when they finally got to a jury it kind
of got it all muddled up. The juries didn't quite
get it.
Speaker 5 (15:49):
Under a visa program like that, are there different stipulations
that maybe allow for a more vague system of pay
and that doesn't necessarily line up with labor laws, you
know for US citizens. I'm just I don't know, I'm curious.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
What you need no.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
I mean they have to be paid a certain amount per.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
Hour, but somehow they found a loophole to make that office.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
They always make loop poles, and in fact, in the end,
the only way that we focus on one particular company,
it was actually owned by the fun Huls, two brothers
who are originally two Cuban brothers who fled to Cuba
when Castro took over and their family lost everything. They
were enormously, fabulously rich in Cuba, literally owned a palace
(16:37):
there and fled to the United States. They own us Sugar,
and we focus on them because they were the ones
that kept the class action lawsuit going even when we
suspect that their legal fees exceeded the amount that they
would have had to pay the workers in back pay,
(17:01):
and they ended up having to rely on an outdated
law that dated back hundreds of years to like colonial
America in order to in order to avoid having to
pay back pay to the law to the workers.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Atrocious unclean k.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
Can you tell us just about how that class action
lawsuit began, like who started it and how did it?
How did it come to fruition.
Speaker 4 (17:28):
So there were some public interest lawyers who had been
representing immigrant workers in Texas and other areas, and they
got a tip from an anonymous person who said, you know,
(17:48):
these people are being underpaid, and you know, it was very,
very difficult to even speak to the workers, and they
described how difficult it was to even get close to them.
The sugar companies prevented you from even speaking to these workers,
even getting close to them in the fields. They would
have security guards escort you off of the of the
(18:15):
property if you even got close to the dorms, and
you couldn't even talk to them. And so it took
quite a long time for them to even get this
case going, but they eventually were able to. They had
to make a lot of trips to Jamaica to even
get clients for this.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And I just want to shout out one of my
favorite moments in some of these interviews you do is
when we learn that one of these lawyers he's he's
very steady and very like affable and not shaken by
a lot of things that would terrify ordinary people, Like
he gets a some kind of death threat one time,
(18:55):
and he replies, well, I on town right now, but
I can give you a call when i'm back, and
that's uh, this is the guy I sometimes referred to
as the Harvard Idiot in Texas.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, a guy calls him up and says, Hey, come
down to my property. I need to I'm gonna kill you.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
Come over for me, pencil it in, come out of town.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
I can't make it.
Speaker 5 (19:21):
Amazing well, and also the forgive me I'm blinking on
the name, but the journalists that he kind of starts
the story off, who has had a history as a
rock musician and various other kind of occupations before he
landed in journalism. He is told basically, you're never going
to talk to one of these people. You're never going
to talk to a cane cutter. And he goes try
(19:42):
me and then and it is difficult, you know, by design,
but he eventually does, you know, cut through. No pun
intended there either. But how how are they able to
keep people from these workers, you know, and keep them
so isolated in a way that just frankly really does
like slavery, like having kept humans, you know, that they're
(20:04):
kept away from anyone that could possibly help them.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
I mean, I gotta tell you, even you know, even
we tried to even talk to the either one of
the found huls Alfie and pepefn hul of of US Sugar.
And it just is so striking that if you have
money in America you don't have to answer questions ever
about anything. That's just the truth. We have a long
montage in there of how how hard we tried to
(20:31):
talk to one of them. We tried even just running
into them outside their building. We went, I went to
their home, I went to their yacht, We went to
their building. We tried even just dropping off a letter
at the front desk of their office. We couldn't even
get to the receptionist. Yeah, you, if you have money
(20:52):
in America, you don't have to answer for the decisions
you make or what you do.
Speaker 3 (20:58):
And this is I want to stand this point for
a second. Two because the the incredibly sophisticated stonewalling here.
It does sound like something out of a thriller novel
for a lot of folks. You're listening and you can say, well,
this sounds a little larger than life. But I'm believe
(21:20):
was the documentarian Stephanie and Alec, the journalists, they're working
in this field, they're they're trying to talk with these workers.
As you said before, the before the legal case and
the traveling to Jamaica and these got these folks end
up having to resort basically to trade craft. They have
to pull some spycraft moves just to get in.
Speaker 6 (21:44):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
The one thing that struck me, I really want to
ask you about is our documentarian here is very explicit
and very very certain that the sugar companies use their
influence to push law enforcement right to intimidate them and
(22:05):
harass them. And she's got to keep picking up like
she's switching rental cars out, which is another spy move.
Did you were your team ever feel unsafe or threatened
in your investigation because it seems like these guys are
not playing around.
Speaker 4 (22:20):
So you're talking about Stephanie Black who eventually made the
documentary H two Worker, And yeah, she was followed and
she had to be very very very careful. We did
not have that experience. Now, I will say, we knew
(22:42):
that happened to her, and so we weren't, you know,
we didn't. We were already prepared, you know what I mean,
Like we already knew going in that to take to
take measures. And we got in, got out. We we
made short trips, we made two day trips. You know.
Speaker 2 (23:06):
How many burner phones did you go through?
Speaker 5 (23:07):
Celeste?
Speaker 4 (23:08):
I didn't.
Speaker 3 (23:15):
You know?
Speaker 4 (23:16):
And you know, and I'm not Stephanie Black. I'm Celeste Hedley,
a member of sag Aftra, longtime NPR. You know, come
at me, try me, you know, uh, bring it on.
So I'd like to see see a try So it's
(23:38):
a different world for you. And and you know, to
a certain extent, it's the work of somebody like Stephanie
Black and Alec I can build on their work, right
that then you bring in somebody who has a little
bit more standing that makes it possible to where then
they are going to end up with somebody who has
(24:00):
a little bit not equal power, but a little bit
more standing to wear nice.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
Tribe buster to oppress, a little bit.
Speaker 4 (24:10):
More difficult to push around. And then of course, big sugar,
you know, we have iHeartMedia behind us, we have Imagine
Audio behind us, like nice, Yeah, exactly, give it a go.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
Is is Vanity Fair a part of this at all?
Or is that just Marie Brenner.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
Vanity Fair published the original article and so and you know,
Marie Brenner is no joke, right, I mean, we're talking
about a legendary journalist and so absolutely nothing in that
original article was not fact checked a billion times and
absolutely rock solid, you know, and you know, including the
(24:55):
very opening scene, I mean the opening just to prove
how much power the these brothers have, the Funhole brothers.
The opening scene in Marie Brandish's article is where Bill
Clinton is breaking up with Monica Lewinsky, like he has
called her into the Oval office to break up with her,
and his aid calls him and says, there's a phone
call for you, and Bill Clinton says, I'm doing something
(25:18):
and he says it's Alfie fun Hul and he says,
I'll take that call.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Oh wow.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
That's how powerful these two guys are. And it just
is there to show you the fact that for so
many generations, sugar has been operating under the cloak the
shadow of darkness and manipulating our lives. And this podcast,
like the title of this podcast is perfect. It is
(25:45):
stuff they don't want us to know about in so
many ways, it is time. It's time for reckoning for
this sugar industry. It really is.
Speaker 5 (25:53):
You get into this in the podcast too, but just
the idea of sugar as part of our diet and
just the way it's been pushed on like children's burials,
and you know, the marketing behind all of it, let
alone all of the dark goings on behind the scenes,
and how it actually you know, comes to be in
those products. I think it's fascinating. And you draw a
really interesting parallel between you know, the history of slavery
(26:17):
in our country, you know, and and those conditions that
didn't change a hell of a lot, like a lot
of things, like you know, we just sort of converted
prison labor to what we were getting out of slave labor.
You see a lot of these loopholes in American history.
Could you talk a little bit about that and that
parallel that you kind of see, you know, into that
transition between you know, doing it kind of through the
(26:37):
slave labor, the slave trade, and then kind of figuring
out a way around it, but basically keeping it the same.
Speaker 4 (26:44):
I mean, well, first of all, slavery always was about
control of labor. You know, Racism was invented in order
to justify control of labor, not the other way around.
And so there is a direct line between sugar and slavery,
and it is still wage slavery to today. You cannot
(27:06):
separate the sugar on our table from slavery, you can't.
And so today, even today, the ways in which we
have manipulated the public, and even if you look at
the ways, you know, you think about, you know, the
reckoning that came for tobacco, the reckoning that has come
(27:27):
for the pharmat pharmaceutical industry in a small way, in
the ways that they have manipulated even science, and that
has happened in a certain way with like eugenics, in
the way that they manipulated things to you know, to
try to make it look like racism was justified scientifically.
That was again to try to manipulate labor, to say
(27:51):
that certain races were designed to labor. Right, that's connected
to sugar. They were designed to stand in the field
and cut your hane all day. But also in terms
of the science of our food and the way we eat.
You can even just go back just a couple decades
and look at the way that they manipulated our sugar
(28:12):
science science to say that it was not sugar that
was making us fat, it was fat.
Speaker 5 (28:18):
Right.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
You can find you can find these ads that say,
if sugar it makes you obese, then why are there
so many skinny kids? Kids? Eat more sugar in anybody
that is called fat.
Speaker 5 (28:29):
It makes clearly it makes you fat. And now we
know that there's good fat in there. You know, we
have things like keto dyet and all of that.
Speaker 4 (28:35):
You know. I even had ads that at that pedaled
sugar as a way to control your appetite. They said
sugar might just be the willpower you need to curb
your appetite. They had sugar advertising sugar as the quick
energy you need to resist eating too much. They had
(28:56):
advertised sugar as a healthy way to eat less. They
had advertised sugar as not dangerous to your teeth. Right. So,
there are so many ways in which they have manipulated
the American public. They put sugar into literally everything you
mentioned before that I tried to get sugar out of
(29:17):
my diet. I a didn't have the time for it
because I had to end up making all of my
own stuff.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
It's a second job.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
Yeah, And I didn't have the money. It became so
expensive to try to buy all the specialty things that
I needed in order to get rid of sugar. It's
in everything. It's in everything.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor,
and then we'll return with Celeste Hedley and we're back Celeste.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Is there a they in the stuff they don't want
you to know of sugar? Is there like an alliance
of some sort or a group, like a lobbying group
or anything.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I mean, yeah, there's the trade industries. I mean there's that.
There's a very small number of sugar companies that make
up the sugar industry, and there's the lobbying group for sugar.
There was a response from the Sugar Trade Group to
our podcast saying that you know, this class action suit
(30:22):
happened a long time ago, and now they're very modernized
and they employ a lot of people. All those things
are true.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
But but.
Speaker 2 (30:32):
If it's if it's a group like that, they are
the one. So I guess there are individuals, like you said,
Alfie was able to get Bill Clinton on the phone
as an individual, powerful human being. But it does feel
like if you've got a group that is making a
lot of money subsidizing their product with you know, super
cheap labor at least for a long time, and with
(30:52):
government funding, right, you can probably spend a lot more
money lobbying, which I'm assuming that's what happens. I don't
know that see. That to me just feels it's the
kind of creepy thing that we talk about a lot
on the show, where a large group, a fairly small
group in this instance, can wield so much power with
(31:14):
lawmakers and even with the executive branch. You still got
that sense.
Speaker 4 (31:21):
Yeah, I mean, this is a small group of people.
And let me tell you how bad of a deal
this is for the United States taxpayer. It's so bad
that the Cato Institute referred to them as a cartel.
I mean, anyway, we give billions of dollars to the
(31:42):
US sugar industry to plant sugar. We pay them billions
to plant it, to grow it, as though it's not
a profitable industry, right, Like, as though people wouldn't we
have to prioritize it, right, It's not like it's kale.
People are going to buy sugar, you know, you don't
have to incentivize it. So we pay them billions to
(32:04):
plant it.
Speaker 3 (32:05):
We buy them yachts.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
No, then sugar.
Speaker 4 (32:10):
Is more expensive in the United States than pretty much
every other wealthy nation in the world, So we're paying
them billions. Then we're paying more for the product in
the grocery store, and they are then carrying out environmental
disasters like burning down their fields, and the environmental costs
(32:34):
on the other hand, for example, the Everglades are total recks,
are probably going to end up cost in the US
taxpayers another billions, if not trillions, plus the climate change costs,
so there's another cost as well. And then you come
to the healthcare costs, because when you cover towns in
ash you're talking about a massive cost. And then of
(32:56):
course there's the human cost. So we are.
Speaker 5 (33:01):
Of the consuming the product itself. Let's not forget I mean,
which again.
Speaker 4 (33:06):
Which again, So if you start counting this all up,
it's a it's a pretty bad deal.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
Why are we doing it?
Speaker 3 (33:16):
It's a good deal for the sugar barons since they're
still around. But that's like one of the questions, you know,
like how how does this deal come to be? You
know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (33:28):
Like how do we say enough?
Speaker 4 (33:29):
Is it?
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Contribution?
Speaker 4 (33:32):
Shout it out? In World War Two because we were
afraid that, you know, we were all bought in on
the fact that sugar wasn't necessary was needed for energy,
that especially for our soldiers, that they would need that
that cheap energy burst in order to keep their energy going.
For all the athletic you know things that they were doing. Okay,
(33:55):
so they put all this money into the sugar industry
to subsidize it to make sure that we wouldn't ever
have to rely on other countries in order to keep
sugar in the United States. So that's how it started
in World War Two, and it has just kept going
because the sugar barons have continued to grease to butter
both sides of these bread giving very liberally to both
(34:17):
the Republicans and the Democrats to such an extent that
it has just been seen as a sacred cow. And
also the American public just has look, as we say,
as we say in the podcast, the Farm Bill is
just not a sexy piece of legislation. People don't pay
any attention to this, and that's really one of the
major purposes of this podcast, and it's why we brought
(34:40):
it out this year because the Farm Bill only comes
up for reconsideration every five years, and it's up for
reconsideration right now, and it's time. It is time to
stop paying billions of dollars to people to grow this
product that they would grow anyway, and then pay for
it again in the growth store and pay for it
(35:01):
again to in an environment, and pay for it again
at the doctor's office, and pay for it again and
again and again and again and again and again.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
I wonder if we were paying so much more at
the grocery store. Let's say, I don't know exactly how
much you know, a certain amount of sugar costs right now,
but if that was doubled, let's say, or even tripled,
I wonder if that would in like really have a
ripple effect, a beneficial effect to people not using sugar
(35:32):
as much at home, and also would increase the price
of you know, highly sugared products that are giving us well,
they're giving us all heart disease, and I know, as
you said, diabetes and fatty liver disease and all these things.
I don't know, I think you I selest I can
I could see that working really well?
Speaker 4 (35:50):
Yeah? Maybe so. I mean, the US has guaranteed sugar
growers a price of sugar for a really, really long time.
They've guaranteed that they will get a certain price for sugar.
I mean, yeah, I mean, but look at this, Look
at the look at the uproar when when Bloomberg tried
(36:11):
to put a sugar tax on soda.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, remember that the vice tax didn't
uh didn't jibe with the public, And there were several
there were several PR firms more than willing to push
back against Bloomberg's move, and they somehow had a lot
of money to do it. Yeah, just pointing that part out.
Speaker 4 (36:32):
Yeah, these these these these ground swell of consumer anger about.
Speaker 6 (36:37):
Sure, yeah, well what are we gonna do besides, like,
if we're not putting sugar in everything, if we're taxing
all the sugar, what are we going to use aspartame?
I don't know if everybody's heard w h o is
is coming out again saying hey, guys, maybe aspartain's not
a great idea, And then the FDA says, no, it's fine.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
We're the ones who approved it. It's good.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
But yeah, there we got a call, right you. FDA
didn't reply until they checked in with some folks.
Speaker 5 (37:05):
It's also not the same. I mean, the idea of
a diet soda exists because it is an alternative to sugar,
you know, So it's like, yeah, also just can't be
diet soda. Then what do you have to compare it to?
Then when what do you get to have for a treat,
you know. I mean it's just so foundationally, you know,
entrenched in our culture, like with the culinary cooking shows,
baking shows, all of this stuff. No one's going to
(37:26):
just stop using sugar and switch to I mean, it's
like I think that Genie is already out of the bottle.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
I don't know, but you know what.
Speaker 4 (37:32):
I will say this having gone through I mean I
went without sugar basically for six months, and I will
say that it was hard, but I will also say
that surprisingly, it didn't take me very long to sort
of lose my taste for sugar and realize that pretty
quickly you start realizing that you can suddenly taste the
(37:55):
real taste of things.
Speaker 3 (37:57):
Yeah, what was What was it like when you had
When did you have anything that you ate like a
month seven or something where you thought, WHOA, how much
sugar is in this?
Speaker 4 (38:06):
Yeah? Like, first of all, there's things that have sugar,
like beef, jerky like tea. Tea does not need sugar.
Things like bread, Why the does bread have sugar in it?
There's all kinds of things. Chicken nuggets, Why the sorry
(38:28):
nuggets have sugar in them? And people put sugar in
Italian dressing. You know, there are so many things that
have sugar in them, and then when you start taking
them out, you're like, oh, this tastes so much better
when it's not.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Sweet, like you use f bomb Celesti, it's delight, Like
what the holy.
Speaker 3 (39:01):
My friends who are from other parts of the world,
that's one of their main complaints. They say, I can't
buy any bread in the US that isn't somehow also cake, Yeah,
like what the.
Speaker 4 (39:11):
Like exactly and when you start eating bread that tastes
like I don't know, bread like it's and I will
say that that has lasted for me like a I
make all my own dressings. I do make my own
bread because like what the But what about.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
Like natural sugars. There's natural sugars in fruits and things.
You know, there are ways to get a similar effect
just by you know, the natural sugars that are contained
within you know, even like.
Speaker 4 (39:41):
Oh yeah, of course, but in order to use those
in your like your baking and things, you have to
buy and also in order to use in order to
get those to use in your baking, you have to
like track down these manufacturers who are not connected to this,
like wage slavery. Blah blah blah blah blah. There's like
a company called whole some that are like, as implied
(40:03):
by the name, not connected to this whole horrifying industry.
Speaker 5 (40:07):
But see the supply chain, you can a.
Speaker 4 (40:09):
Relatively expensive I'll put it you this way. The US
economy loses a billion dollars a year because of the
US sugar program, a billion dollars a year, and some
economists estimate that the US sugar program causes somewhere between
seventeen to twenty thousand people to become unemployed on an
annual basis.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
I guess, I guess that's where I don't understand, is like,
does it seem like we're in the business of losing
a billion dollars a year? You know, the government's pretty
stingy for the most part when it comes to things
like that, like where is this hostage situation taking place?
Like who is holding the gun to Uncle Sam's head
that is forcing us to continue with this horrible deal
(40:50):
that is across the board horrible that it seems to
be quantifiably bad.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
So as your the title of your show implies, this
is they don't want you to know. This is not
how they present it right. You know, politicians also don't
read the fine print, and that's not how they present it.
They instead say, this is how many people they employ.
We're just farmers, We're just American farmers. We are if
(41:18):
you read the Alfhi Funhoul and Peppi fun whole story,
they are immigrants who made their way up through their
own grit, and they're they they're the classic American dream story.
That's their story.
Speaker 3 (41:33):
That's a good pr you know, we should call Pixar
and get that one made. But that's also that's also
so intentionally, so insidiously and purposely misleading. You know, I'm
really glad you mentioned the idea of the politicians interacting
with quote unquote farm interest, because I don't think a
lot of Americans are aware just how monopolized that has become.
(41:57):
Like every time I hear a politician of any ideological
stripe talk about, what, you know, working for small farmers,
I have to try not to laugh, because what we
need to realize is so many of those quote unquote
small farms were long ago bought out by larger, larger
interests that have a lot of weight. To your point,
(42:19):
they have a lot of weight to pull. Do you
think part of the problem not just comes from like
legacy and tradition and dependency from World War Two? But
could part of it be the relatively constrained goal horizon
of politicians, Like how you know it's politically it's very
difficult for a congress person, someone on a local level,
(42:42):
or even even the president honestly to really support a
decision that is not going to bear fruit for you know,
within two to four years, right, So is that part
of it the time horizon? Does that make it tougher
for them to break the cycle?
Speaker 4 (43:00):
Maybe? I mean, perhaps I think it's more about the
fact that politics voters Homo sapiens always has and ever
will be more motivated by fear than positive feelings, always
has been and ever will be. That's our species, and
(43:21):
that's our neurology, and that's how the amygdala works. And
therefore politicians know that they can drum up voters by
talking about Americans and farmers and the threat to the
American way, and and that's how they can get voters
(43:46):
to the polls, and they can simplify everything down into
very very simple terms, and they don't have to talk
about the phosphorus runoff from the sugarcane fields, and how
that is causing sawgrass to completely overwhelm the everglades and
ruin the environment, and how that's leading to climate change,
and how that's going to cost trillions of dollars to combat,
(44:09):
and how that's going to fall on the most vulnerable
in US to pay for and how they don't have
the money to pay for it and have that's a
result of inequality and blah blah blah. I mean, you know,
who has the time to explain all of that and
who cares?
Speaker 5 (44:21):
Isn't there also another way of creating sugar by processing
sugar beets that doesn't involve harvesting sugar cane and this
brutal labor system.
Speaker 4 (44:32):
Our sugar beats more environmentally friendly, not necessarily, so that's
not I will say this sugar production from Dutch beat sugar,
which I assume is what you mean, does produce quite
a bit less CO two and those little fine particles
(44:54):
that get into the air than cane sugar. It also
uses a lot less water, So yes, beat sugar is
much more sustainable than cane sugar. Is it does it
take less land? I'm not sure. I don't know the
answer to that.
Speaker 5 (45:12):
Yeah, I'm not I'm not trying. I only bring it
up because you'll probably remember the story that was very
big in Georgia and the early aughts, the Imperial Sugar
Refinery explosion that was a product of poor conditions here
at home, you know, where the stuff is being refined
and created and put into the packages that we then
find on the shelves. I believe you know, upwards of
(45:35):
a dozen people were killed, and they were you know,
hugely injured. If they weren't killed. There was a whole
big story because where I was covering at the time,
there was a big burn unit at the at the
Medical College of Georgia, which was I'm sorry it was
at the time called like Augusta State University. There was
a medical facility associated with it. So a lot of
those folks were you know, scent there. But I don't
(45:57):
know that was an isolated event or are there other
of refineries having unsafe conditions as well that you've There are.
Speaker 4 (46:04):
Many of them, you know, there are many of them.
I mean, we're you know, anytime that you have that
amount of particles going off into the air, anytime that
you have something that is a refinery, which always means heat,
which always means grinding. There's going to be unsafe conditions.
And anytime that you have poorly paid workers and a
(46:27):
lot of them, you know there's going to be danger.
You know, I mean I think that. And not only that,
but anytime that you have industries that are pushing for
less regulation and you have a government bodies where they
are severely understaffed, and that includes the government body that
(46:47):
oversees agricultural production, there's a lot of danger.
Speaker 5 (46:53):
Okay, let's take a quick break here, a word from
our sponsor, and then jump right back in with Celeste.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
And we've returned before we move on, because there is
a there, There is a twist here. There's also another
show that we definitely want to talk a little bit about,
uh that has that is also held by you, Celeste.
One of the big questions that I think is on
everybody's mind is when you listen to Big Sugar, which
(47:28):
in my experiences is the best investigation of its kind
in this industry, when you when we when we listen
to this, what do we hope people can take away
from the show? What is there? We're all about empowerment, right, So,
knowing the problems of the sugar industry, are there things
or steps that you know, Jane and John Q public
(47:51):
or whatever can take to help mitigate or address these injustices.
Speaker 4 (47:58):
I mean, I hope the first thing that people do
is call their representative and their senator about the Farm Bill.
Speaker 3 (48:03):
Okay, first thing first.
Speaker 4 (48:05):
The Farm Bill is up for reconsideration right now, and
it's time to take action. It only comes up for reconsideration,
as I said, every five years, So I'm looking at
my watch here.
Speaker 5 (48:16):
Time is now, and you're saying, as it's written currently,
it's just it's way too many dispensations for these big companies.
It makes it way too easy for them to get around,
you know, safe conditions. And you were pushing for rewriting
it in a way that would take them to task
or that would in some way improve things.
Speaker 4 (48:35):
So when we talk about how much money, how much
is in the Farm Bill for US sugar, and when
we talk about the fact that there's billions for US
sugar in the Farm Bill, then what we're talking about
is billions in your money for the US sugar program.
(48:59):
That's your money. So when you also hear politicians say
we don't have money to house the homeless. When you
say that we don't have money for schools to pay
teachers more, to pay firefighters more. We don't have money
to build new to resurface highways or build new bridges,
(49:22):
but we have money to give billions to us sugar
and to Alfi von hul who owns a yacht that's
worth I think over thirty or forty million dollars. It's
time to call you representative and your senator.
Speaker 2 (49:34):
Yeah, and it's really important. It's really important you do
it as an individual whoever you are listening right now,
because there's so many advocacy groups that are going to
be a part of that farm bill, fighting against the
things that are probably in all of our best interest.
Speaker 4 (49:50):
Yeah, exactly. And you know your money, it's your money,
it's your money.
Speaker 3 (49:58):
You like the yacht, you should like the yacht. Folks
paid for it.
Speaker 5 (50:01):
We recently did a panel with some folks about criminal
justice reform, and there are several lawyers on the panel
whose job it is to seek this kind of stuff,
and they pointed out that these calls matter, that if
enough people call in and it makes some noise, it's
going to change the conversation. To some degree, you are
not powerless. So I just think that's it's easy to
(50:21):
feel overwhelmed and completely, you know, like your hands are tied.
But these things do matter.
Speaker 3 (50:27):
And they really do that agency that we all have listening.
If you're located in the United States, that is arguably
another thing they don't want you to know is that
it does. Your voice does matter. And there's a really
beautiful moment where you hear people in these advocacy groups
inevitably say that something like what you're saying, Celeste. You know,
(50:49):
it might feel it might feel like you're just emptying
an ocean with a bucket or spitting in the wind
when you are that one person making that one call.
But if we move in mo that we are not
one person, right. And I even heard no friend of
mine who used to be in the bellay would say
like you would you get one call, right, and then
(51:10):
you get twelve calls and now something has to happen,
especially if they all come in a close amount of time.
So it is it is at least inspiring to know
that we the public are not powerless in this situation,
even though we have been brainwashed across generations I would argue.
Speaker 2 (51:32):
Uh, we've been mouthwashed, We've been there.
Speaker 3 (51:36):
Worth it also listening Halatosi's story for another day. But
we should we should absolutely talk. We would be remiss,
remiss if we did not mention another project do you
have you have helmed and created that is of immense
interest to every longtime listener. Of stuff they don't want
(51:56):
you to know is less. Could you tell us a
bit about the Freeway Phantom.
Speaker 4 (52:01):
Yeah, speaking of things that you actually can do something about.
I mean, that's another thing that is a message of
Freeway Phantom. The Freeway Phantom is about the first serial
killer in Washington, d C. That we know of, even
though most people don't know about the Freeway Phantom. And
the reason we don't know about the Freeway Phantom is
because he murdered black girls in a poor and low
(52:26):
income neighborhoods. That's why people have never heard of him.
He murdered as many people as a son of Sam
and yet these were young, I mean as young as
like ten and twelve years old black girls in low
and low income neighborhoods and middle income neighborhoods in Washington,
(52:48):
D C. In the early nineteen seventies. He was never caught.
And the reason I say that people could have changed
that is because if these murders had been given the
attention that they deserved even at the time, if word
had gotten out, they maybe could have kept some of
(53:13):
these girls safe. These girls were snatched off the street
in broad daylight as they walked a block maybe two
blocks away from their homes in some cases, as they
were walking to the grocery store. If parents had known,
these were not neglectful parents, These were not bad kids.
These were good kids in their school gym uniforms, in
(53:34):
their own neighborhoods. And these were lives that needed to
matter and didn't, and they were forgotten. So this is
one of the reasons why not just for me, but
for the entire team at Tenderfoot TV and at iHeart.
This is why this is so personal for us and
(53:56):
so important for us, is because these you need to
even fifty years later, their names deserve to be said
and remembered. It is important that these girls' lives matter
today as much as they did then, and that it
means something that we understand why law enforcement and every
(54:22):
community and every media outlet needs to take these things seriously,
when a child disappears, when somebody disappears, that's important and
it needs attention, and it needs immediate attention within those
first twenty four hours. And that's something every neighborhood can
take part in. You know. One of the things that
that people talk about is that one of the ways
(54:45):
that you keep everybody safe, especially children, is by getting
to know your neighbors, learned their names, learn who lives
in those homes. That's a tiny, small thing that you
can do to keep people safe, just on your own street.
So when we're talking about these little things that you
can do, that's one thing that you can do today.
Stop listen. When you stop listening here, walk down your
(55:08):
street and learn who lives in your neighborhood. Easy, pasy done.
Speaker 2 (55:12):
And like think about how that increases, Like I don't know,
the community value of just where you live. Like being
able to help your neighbor if they need some help,
maybe they will help you if you need some help.
That's amazing. I love that message.
Speaker 3 (55:27):
Also makes things cooler too, because then you get into
like block parties and you know you can hang out,
which I love. I love hanging out anywhere where I
don't have to pay money to be there.
Speaker 2 (55:39):
So that's that's cool.
Speaker 3 (55:41):
That's a huge cool part of block parties for me
and barbecues. But I would say also on a little
bit more serious note about that, it does help us
clock anomalous occurrences much more quickly. Right, you know your neighbors,
you know when someone's a stranger. And that's not to
(56:04):
you know, inculcate paranoia in everyone, but it is. It's
a form of being aware of your surroundings and sless.
That also what a bookend because that also goes back
to some of your long standing work about human connection
and communication with people you know.
Speaker 2 (56:22):
And I.
Speaker 3 (56:24):
Have to say, listening to listening to Freeway Phantom, the
infuriating thing is just as you describe, you know what
I mean. They I don't know if you could say
law enforcement dropped the ball, because that would be like
saying they picked it up in the first place.
Speaker 4 (56:43):
You know, to one extent, they worked hard. I mean,
I went through the boxes of evidence, They interviewed hundreds
of people, They followed they did, they followed leads, that
is absolutely the case. But they also immediately made it
assumptions that these parents were neglectful. They immediately they made
assumptions that these twelve year old girls might have run
(57:05):
away with their boyfriends. They made comments about these girls
being wearing provocative clothing when they were in their school
gym uniforms. So yeah, did they drop the ball. Yeah.
They also took these girls' lives lightly because they were black,
because they were living in poor neighborhoods. They made assumptions
(57:27):
about them, and then they immediately got distracted by the
Vietnam protests, which were a bunch of I don't again,
I'm not trying to stereotype, but for the most part,
they were a whole lot of middle class, college white
kids protesting the war, which was important, it was absolutely important,
but it also took incredibly needed attention away from these girls'
(57:51):
lives who had been murdered and again he kept killing.
And if they had gotten the attention and resources that
they needed, they might have saved the girls who got
killed later and later and later and later. They could
have caught this guy and prevented him from killing yet
more girls. And this is it. Wouldn't this story wouldn't
(58:12):
be important. We wouldn't be doing this podcast today. If
this worn't be still, if this weren't still happening.
Speaker 2 (58:19):
Yes, Now, well let's talk because I think it goes
back to community and it's a parallel full disclosure. I'm
an ep on Freeway phantom, but it's a problem I
saw with Atlanta Monster and the cases with the Atlanta
missing and murdered, where there's a distrust of those who
are supposed to be taking protecting your community right, a
(58:41):
complete distrust so that when even if somebody knows something
and it was an eyewitness to a child being abducted,
it's highly unlikely that that person is going to come
forward and actually speak with a police officer and give
that story because there's distrust between that individual and that institution.
(59:02):
It feels to me like that is still a major issue.
What have you found the list?
Speaker 4 (59:07):
Yeah, and I think that's also the case. And I
forgive me, Matt May I've forgotten now how much the
reward is up to now.
Speaker 2 (59:15):
It is now at three hundred thousand dollars because it
was matched.
Speaker 4 (59:19):
Yeah, by iHeart and Tenderfoot Right. So the reason for
that is because we know for sure, because we did
these interviews with members of the community, we know that
they did not tell the police things We know they
didn't talk to the police. In some cases, we know
they weren't forthcoming with the police, And so we know
(59:41):
somebody knows something, and that person may still, fifty years on,
be alive. We also know that they may not still
be in Washington, DC, which is why it's so important
that this podcast be heard by as many people as
possible over the country. Maybe this person's living in Oregon. Now,
they may be living somewhere else entirely, and we want
them to hear this podcast and call and get in
(01:00:05):
touch because somebody knows something and they may not realize
that that piece of information may be exactly the piece
of information that could bring closure to these families. And
so that's why the reward has been doubled, because these
families deserve to know what happened to their daughters. They
(01:00:26):
deserve to know, you know, I mean, how horrible to
not only lose your daughters this way and have their
bodies discarded like garbage on the side of a road,
but then to not actually have answers about who, why,
what happened to them, you know, and have so little
(01:00:47):
invested into getting those answers that fifty years on, they
still have no resolution, and so that's why the production
companies doubled that reward is because we know somebody knows
something and it's worth trying. It's worth it's worth.
Speaker 3 (01:01:05):
Trying, agreed, And that's maybe that's the message that we
take with us at the close of our conversation today.
It is possible to make a difference as an individual,
and it's not only possible, but it is one of
the best and most noble things a person can attempt
(01:01:27):
to do. So we want to thank you again, celest
for all your work bringing this justice to light. You know,
these shows are coming out back to back to back,
so I can only imagine what crazy pandemonium your calendar
looks like. And you've made time for us and all
our fellow conspiracy realists. Where can people go to learn more?
(01:01:51):
Not just about Big Sugar, not just about Freeway Phantom,
but about all your many other projects.
Speaker 4 (01:01:59):
I mean, for the meantime, Twitter, maybe I have a
I have a website, but because it's only me updating it,
it is very irregularly updated. But yeah, the the social
(01:02:21):
media I most likely update is Instagram, which is mostly
pictures of my dog, and in the interim Twitter, but
we'll see how long it takes till.
Speaker 2 (01:02:30):
That implodes for sure, and listen to Big Sugar and
Freeway Phantom. You can find them wherever you get your
podcasts or your favorite shows. Thank you, and really like
listen to them now Freeway Phantom. I think in this moment,
when you're hearing this episode, you can listen to every
episode of Freeway Phantom, as well as some of the
(01:02:51):
bonus episodes that are.
Speaker 3 (01:02:52):
Coming out, one of which just dropped this week. I
believe that would be I don't even want to give
the title because we're not going to spoil it, but yes,
thank you so much less. We can't wait to learn
more about Big Sugar and here's hoping we can make
a difference.
Speaker 4 (01:03:11):
Here my pleasures. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (01:03:17):
This was such a fantastic conversation. You guys know, we
went a lot of places and for everybody listening, even
though we talked in depth about Big Sugar in the
sugar industry, there is so much more in the show.
You really should check it.
Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
Out definitely, and also check out Freeway Phantom because there's
I mean, it's a winding story that takes you a
lot of different places, and there's a new profile of
the killer inside that show, and it's worth your time.
Speaker 3 (01:03:45):
And we're also I guess since in full disclosure, you know,
as you said, Matt, you ep Tenderfoot shows including Freeway Phantom.
We also you might hear some familiar voices cameo in a.
Speaker 2 (01:03:59):
Couple of things.
Speaker 5 (01:04:00):
All of us are in.
Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
All of us are in Freeway fans. I think that's right.
Speaker 5 (01:04:04):
Yeah, it's a pleasure to work on and a real
pleasure to talk to. Celast be a big fan of hers,
as we all have for quite some time. A really
uniquely talented journalist and storyteller, and really generous with her
time today, so we thank her specifically, and we thank
you for tuning in. If you want to get at
us online, you can do so. We exist at the
(01:04:25):
handle Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter and YouTube and Facebook, Conspiracy
Stuff Show on Instagram and TikTok.
Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
If you'd like to call us with some thoughts, you can.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.
You've got three minutes. It's voicemail. Give yourself a cool
name and let us know if we can use your
message and voice on the air. If you don't want
to do that, why not send us a good old
fashioned email. We read everything we get.
Speaker 7 (01:04:52):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:05:14):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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