April 23, 2024 • 61 mins
Jeffrey Epstein made a name for himself as a mysterious money manager with friends in very high places, from Bill Clinton to Donald Trump, British royalty and more. His firm refused to do business with anyone worth less than one billion dollars, and Epstein traveled the globe, often throwing exclusive parties on his own private island. Yet this jet-setting money whiz was also dogged by rumors -- rumors of ongoing sexual abuse with multiple victims. At least some of these rumors turned out to be true. Any other person would have spent years in jail ...so why is Jeffrey Epstein walking free today? Tune in to learn more.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to the show, fellow conspiracy realist. The following
classic episode may not be appropriate for all listeners, so
if you've got some kiddos in the crowd in the
road trip with you, maybe check out a future episode
or tune into our earlier interview with Aaron Manky. This
is the story of Jeffrey Epstein at its way back
(00:23):
in what January twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, this is right before the major news started hitting
or with Jeffrey Epstein getting arrested and all the stuff
that we're not going to spoil right now. Just to
listen to this episode because it takes you back to
a time when I think maybe we and much of
(00:46):
the world was really discovering what this guy was doing.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, and again, at this time that we recorded it,
one of our big questions was why is this guy
not arrested? So you can get a snapshot here and
tune in for our upcoming episode on the aftermath of
the Epstein scandal. From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies,
(01:12):
history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back
now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
My name is Noman. They call me Ben. We are
joined with our super producer Paul Mission controlled Decat most importantly,
you are here and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Before we get started, we have
a very important message regarding today's episode.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Today's episode discusses very frankly, some horrific sexual crimes against
underaged victims, and it's quite disturbing, but I think it's
an important discussion to have and we try as always
to be as respectful and thoughtful about it as possible.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. In
an earlier episode, we mentioned the ongoing legal battles of
one Jeffrey Epstein. Today we are diving into a sordid
tale that will take us from the posh tony area
of Palm Beach Island, Florida, to New York, to New Mexico,
to Paris, to a private island in the Virgin Islands
(02:35):
and a particularly strange series of private plane flights. But
first things first, who is Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, the man of the hour. Jeffrey Epstein was born
in nineteen fifty three on Coney Island. He went to
Lafayette High School. He also attended Cooper Union. He dropped
out of Cooper Union. By the way. He also went
to New York University's current Institute, which he also left
without a degree, surprisingly, especially as we continue to learn
(03:08):
a little more about this gentleman.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah. Yeah. For two years, from nineteen seventy three to
nineteen seventy five, Epstein taught at a very upscale Ivy
League prep school called Dalton School in Manhattan. You'll read
accounts that say he taught calculus and physics, and then
you'll read accounts that say he taught physics and math.
But it was definitely the quantitative, the quantitative disciplines. New
(03:34):
York Magazine initially likened his time at Dalton School to
the teacher that Robin Williams plays in Dead Poets Society.
Do you guys remember that film.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Oh Captain, My Captain, Yeah, man, the first really really
sad movie I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Right, Yeah, poetry was made for one reason, boys to.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Woo women and also carpe dm Right.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So, one parent of a student worked on Wall Street,
and this guy was so inspired by Epstein's methods and
the math rants that he was known for that he
approached Jeffrey Epstein and said, essentially, what the hell are
you doing here, buddy, Why are you a teacher? You
should be on Wall Street, which lets you know what
(04:20):
Wall Street thinks about teachers.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, why would you be inspiring the young people? Just
make more money.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And so this guy, this parent, doubled out on this
and said, no, really, I'm serious, jeff Let me introduce
you to my buddy, Ace Greenberg. You've got to call him.
Ace Greenberg is a senior partner at the time at
bear Stearns. Greenberg really dug Epstein because this guy Greenberg
(04:49):
definitely played favorites. And one thing that he was known
for was he had a certain type of young employee
he liked or knew hire. He didn't want people who
were just fattened off inherited money or third generation bankers.
He wanted brilliant poor people and poor as anything beneath
(05:09):
a millionaire to him, who were very, very hungry. And
at the time, Epstein ticked all these boxes. So nineteen
seventy six he says, all right, screw teaching, I'm going
to work at bear Stearns under as Greenberg. He started
from the bottom kind of the way Drake wants you
to believe his career began it's untrue, But in Epstein's case,
(05:32):
it is. He started as a junior assistant to a
floor trader at the American Stock Exchange, and it quickly
became apparent that Jeff had a gift for this sort
of work.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
So Epstein was, to be fair either a complete genius
or very very close to that. He had a specialty,
which was in options, and that was at the time
something that wasn't particularly well understood, and he amassed a
group of clients, really really quite wealthy clients who thought
(06:04):
that his ability to assess the tax implications on large
portfolios and then to recommend kind of tax loopholes I
guess advantages you could say for some of these transactions.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah. Absolutely, this At this level of finance, the way
in which you move money and the order of operations
can make a huge difference in how much of a
cut Uncle Sam gets or the state of New York
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And it's really crazy that it only took him four
years to go from assistant to a floor trader all
the way up to a full partner.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, he beat the game. He became a partner and
then what do you do after you beat a game?
You stop playing. So he left the firm in nineteen
eighty one and set up his own shop. This is
really this is really strange and sketchy. Okay. So the
premise behind his shop, Epstein and Co. Is that he
would manage the individual and family fortunes of clients with
(07:06):
a minimum of one billion dollars in their portfolio.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Wow. Minimum.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, And according to the scuttle butt about this guy
in nineteen eighty two, he immediately began collecting clients. And
he didn't go out and have some sort of Ted
talk or some sort of Steve Jobs big Apple reveal speech.
People just started coming to him because they knew he
was open for business and he was also very controlling.
(07:35):
He had these specific conditions. If you made one billion
or more, you could talk, but you also had to
accept this. He would not just offer investment advice. He
was going to become your financial architect, from soup to nuts,
stem to stern, from investments to philanthropy to tax planning
to security to a swatching. The guilt and burdens that
(07:58):
people felt because they had, you know, inherited wealth that
they clearly did not earn. He said to one of
his friends at the time, I want people to understand
the power, the responsibility, and the burden of their money.
He would take total control of the billion dollars. He
would charge a flat fee, and he would also get
power of attorney to do whatever he deemed necessary to
(08:21):
advance his client's financial goals. And he was really strict
about all these conditions.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And there's this whole thing where he really did stick
to this whole. If you're a billionaire, we're cool. If
you're not, get the hell out. I mean it's I mean,
as crazy as that sounds, like. People would come to
him with seven hundred million dollars, put it on the
table essentially, and say, Jeff, I need your help, buddy.
I've got seven hundred million dollars and I need you
(08:50):
to work this through or three and he's like, no,
get out, basically, not so kind, no thank you, basically because.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
They were just a little that billion. Yeah, it's like
I don't run a business for hobos. Yeah, And that's okay.
So there is a quick pause here because that's a
question I have. How many billionaires were there in nineteen
eighty one. We know there are more now, you know,
partially due to inflation, partially due to rise of business
(09:20):
in other countries. But were there that many billionaires in
nineteen eighty one, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I would think not.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I would imagine it was a very very rarefied field,
right were they couldn't have been that many.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I mean that inherited wealth. There are at least several
hundred families that have.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You know, that's true because I was thinking of individuals.
So it might be like a dynasty that collects all
of their ill gotten.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Gains or happy gotten gains. You know, some billionaires are
really sweet and do nice things for the earth and
for its inhabitants.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Right sure, maybe I don't personally know everybody on the planet,
so I want to be fair.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, there's also probably some that you know, do it
with great humility and just don't brag about it, right, right,
I would, I would, I would hope.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But then you give it to Jeffrey Epstein who says
I'll handle you all.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And that's, you know, that's the smart thing to do.
It just makes me think of that Balls Act quote.
Behind every great fortune, there is a crime, you know.
But yeah, you guys are absolutely right there are clearly
people who you know, if you're born into wealth and
you don't have control over your circumstances, then of course
(10:41):
there are people who want to do great acts to
make the world a better place. Bill Gates took himself
down several notches financially to help combat disease. That's that's
a stand up thing. I still hate Clippy, but fighting
disease is a noble thing.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Do you know what? When Josh Chuck interviewed Bill Gates,
I actually got to go with them and meet him
in a hotel room, and Josh brought up Clippy, and
apparently Bill Gates is still quite fond of Clippy.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, Bill Gates loves Clippy. He has like a relationship
with it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Uh, he's the only one.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So when I was a kid, I liked it, but
it just slowed down the word processor. So, speaking of billionaires,
who are Jeffrey's clients? Aside from one client, a billionaire
named Leslie Wexler. Epstein keeps his list a closely guarded secret,
and he's also sort of evasive about his process and
(11:38):
what he does. Yeah, you could call it wealth management,
but that's sort of like calling something a structure. A
shot can be a structure, so can a skyscraper or
a pyramid or a nuclear bunker. There are a lot
of things that could be considered that wealth management. So
he's firm employees as many or employed as many as
(12:01):
one hundred and fifty people, but their tasks were overwhelmingly
day to day bureaucracy and admin stuff like accountants to
make sure the internal finances of the company are running.
All the actual decisions, investment and management decisions were made
by Epstein himself, and he's sort of computer phobic, not
a big fan of emails and so on, so he's
(12:22):
always talking on the phone, which will be important later.
So how much money is he making. Some estimates will
say he is or was raking in around seventy five
million a year, but that's a guestimate, and that's why
in a lot of stories about the guy, and there
weren't many until fairly recently, you'll hear him described as
(12:44):
either a multi millionaire or a billionaire. People don't really know.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, you have to imagine if he's bringing in even
somewhere around seventy five million dollars a year with his acumen,
his understanding of investment, he's probably gotten well upward of
a billion, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Well, it's like the Putin question. How much money does
Vladimir Putin have?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Not? I mean, which palace are you going to search?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Right? How long do you want to live?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Oh jeez? Okay, Well here's the big question. With however
much money he's acquired. What does a guy like Jeffrey
Epstein do with all of those piles of cash?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Beanie babies?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
He sets them on fire? Oh man, see, buy a
bunch of beanie babies, buy them a bunch of magic cards,
then set the whole thing on fire.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Wear it a cape. What's his monoical top hat position?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I don't know. Well, I'll tell you for real what
he does is and what anyone should probably do.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I want a cape so bad, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Buy a cape first, then just start purchasing real estate,
purchasing land, purchasing stuff that goes on land, different structures.
Put them on land that you own. That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, so he owns that private island in the US
Virgin Islands. We didn't mention what the nickname for this
thing is. No, it's Little Saint Jeffrey.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Little Saint Jeffrey.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Well lit saints, Jeffrey of the US virtu pilots.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, but seriously, he owns an island.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
He owns an island. It's it's who was asking Oh,
Jonathan Strickland was asking me about this earlier. And it
is in fact not shaped like a skull, which I
know is a huge downer for everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Do you think he still has a layer though.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, he does have a layer. He also has a
Japanese bathhouse on this island.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, we're gonna learn more about that in just a
little bit. But here's the other thing, Noel, he owns
on the island of Manhattan, the what is considered the
largest private.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Residence nine stories tall.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, he owns that and an island. It's insane.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
He also funds extensive, legitimate scientific research through something humbly
named the Jeffrey Epstein the six the Foundation.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And it's cool. It is genuinely cool.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It's genuinely good. Since two thousand, the foundation is given
around two hundred million a year per year to people
like Stephen Hawking, Marvin Minsky, Eric Lander, George Church, Ben Goertzel,
other like numerous Nobel.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Laureates, Lawrence Krausman.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Lawrence Krauss as well, And over the years, the Foundation
has brought a lot of these scientists together and these
sort of brainstorming conference situations to get on the same
page about fundamental topics like gravity, global threats to Earth,
the evolution of language. So you can see some of
(15:42):
the implications here. Usually when billionaires or philanthropists are saying,
let's understand gravity, they're asking, how can we use it somehow?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, global threats to Earth. I mean, this all goes
back to making smart investment choices too. I think the
language thing is really interesting. I'm sure there's a lot
of group think theory because that would be valuable in
the stock market.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So this is, in my opinion, one of those things
that you do see every once in a while when
a certain individual or a group acquires enough wealth that
philanthropy is able to kick in at this point, at
least to this level where a big, a new creation
occurs that is helping that truly is helping humanity in
(16:26):
some way, in some small way. In this case, just
bringing scientists to a consensus could be massively important to
get everyone on the same page to actually get the
Earth to start making some big changes, right, Rather than
just a country or one small groups. It's tough for
me to know this and then also know what we're
(16:49):
going to talk about in just a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, Let's stick with the good stuff while we can.
You can see the official about age for the Epstein
Foundation when he talks about how his funded in two
thousand and how it in two thousand and three established
a program for evolutionary dynamics at Harvard University with thirty
thirty five million dollars seed money gift. The program studies
(17:14):
the evolution of microbiology through the lens of mathematics. Then,
since its establishment, it's made advances in the treatment of cancer, HIV,
infectious diseases. He's also get this well known for his
work funding early education for youth in the Virgin Islands
(17:34):
to other places other areas of the world.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So far, so good, right, Yeah, these are genuinely good things.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Jeffrey Epstein, a self made financial giant. Isn't just killing it.
In the world of finance, A lot of finance guys
defined success by violent terms. Crushing it, killing it, nailed it,
so smashing it, smashing it.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Destroyed that.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, he did all of that stuff. He's also putting
a significant amount of capital into globally important issues, though
his motivations are not clearly, not entirely true, altruistic, you
can make some money off that. Yet, while Epstein remained
for many years an international man of intrigue and mystery, tantalizing,
bits of information about his private life gradually emerged. And
(18:19):
that's when things got ugly.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And we'll learn about those things right after a quick
word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Rumors.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
We're true, yep, even more so than we thought.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Wait waits, there were rumors. Guys.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, she was well open secrets. Ah, people called nieces.
That's a gross that's a gross detail. First, let's get
let's get the one almost side note rumor out of
the way. He's a member of a lot of clubs.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah. The Trilateral Commission that you may remember from an
episode that we've done. We have done an audio episode
on Trilateral right, I don't remember. Oh man, it's in
a video. Go check out our YouTube channel and watch
the Trilateral Commission if you don't know much about it.
Also the Council on Foreign Relations also a video also
(19:21):
maybe not audio topic yet, honestly, don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A ton of people are in the Council of Foreign Relations, and.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, you know, the Trilateral Commission has movers and shakers
that kind of come and go over time. But you
can imagine how upsetting these two things are for certain
a certain number of us within the conspiracy minded world, like,
being a part of both of those organizations is pretty bad,
because just being part of one is potentially bad. It
(19:48):
isn't necessarily a bad thing overall, but for people who
believe this, yes it is.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Do you think they have capes capes not like in
public but when.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
They're in the meetings. Yeah, I think it's more of
like crowns and different masks that they wear.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Okay, yeah, yeah, Okay, I mean I feel like that's
a big compromise. Okay, maybe you have to be in
this straight up illuminati to earn a cape.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So that you know, that's one of those things that
makes you go ooh, interesting, I wanted to know more
about this guy if you're of a certain mind. But
there's another thing.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
And this is we're being relatively lighthearted about the inequality
of wealth and the globe and some of the ridiculous
things that could happen when you're a billionaire.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Because those are the lighthearted things.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
The multi millionaire. Yeah, but those are the lighthearted things.
This is where this is where the disclaimer, the warning
we had at the beginning, really comes into effect. From
here on out, things are going to be pretty pretty dark.
So Secondly, and apparently for decades, Jeffrey Epstein had been
(21:03):
routinely seducing, assaulting, and in some cases violently assaulting underage girls.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And it goes even further than that. The really upsetting
thing is that this whole deal that he had going
on seemed to be pretty much an open secret in
certain parts of both Wall Street as well as Washington.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, we have a quote from current president as we
record this, Donald Trump in two thousand and two, talking
about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He said, I've known jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.
He's a lot of fun to be with.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
It's even said that he likes beautiful women as much
as I do, and many of them are on the
younger side, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Jeffrey enjoys his social life. Well, that was hard to
get through that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I know. You know, that guy's the president. Yeah, that
guy's the president. In a two thousand and seven New
York Magazine article, Vanity Fair column list Michael Wolfe described
flying on Epstein's private plane in the nineties, saying Epstein
was followed onto the plane by how shall I say this,
by three teenage girls, not his daughters, who were eighteen
(22:22):
nineteen twenty. Who knows they were model like. He's never
been secretive about the girls, wolf said. At one point,
when his troubles began, he was talking to me and said, Hey,
what can I say? I like young girls? I said,
maybe you should say I like young women.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
A lot of smoke.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
A lot of smoke here, A lot of smoke, A
lot of smoke. The mainstream public learned of this semi
open secret in the early two thousands, thanks in large
part to some groundbreaking work by the Miami Herald. These
encounters with undraged under A victims the ones that were
the subject of the investigation in Florida. They took place
(23:05):
from nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and five in
mister Epstein's mansions, the one in Palm Beach Island, New York,
and the US Virgin Islands. Many of the girls were
runaways or foster children. People from broken homes, people of
vulnerable situations. And it's important to note Epstein did not
work alone, like we remember when Matt earlier said this
(23:30):
is just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
His his operation functioned like a pyramid scheme. A girl
would be approached by one of Epstein's assistants or often
a previous victim, and told, hey, you can make pretty
good money by giving this middle aged rich guy a massage.
Already creepy, right, So once the victim arrives at the mansion,
(23:58):
this in the Palm Beach operation, at least not far
from Mar al Lago, not very far, she would be
escorted to a particular room and then that person would leave,
and you can find descriptions of the room in the
Miami Herald's piece. Epstein would come in wearing only a
(24:18):
towel on the phone, this robe, lay down naked, belly down,
belly first, and he would tell the victim to massage
his legs. And then you would start escalating this stuff
and offering more money. Also, there were sex toys around.
(24:42):
And again I cannot emphasize this enough. When we say underage,
we're talking about kids who are fourteen and fifteen years old.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I can't even say words. I'm going to be making
guttural noises for the rest of this.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
And I know this doesn't make me like special sensitive,
but it does a little just having a daughter that's
entering into kind of the teenage pre teenage phase.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yes, I mean, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's insane things. A lot of these kids are coming
from terrible home lives anyway, you know, so.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
They're even like thinking they might get an opportunity or
something that might help them out, and right they're just
totally abused and used.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
The rage, the rage really just immediately sets in. We
haven't even gotten like all the way into this.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So he would attempt to entice entice some victims to
disrobe and do increasingly intimate physical things. He would intimidate others.
In at least one case that made it to the
public sphere, he did forcibly assault somewhat, and afterwards the
(25:54):
girls would be paid two hundred and three hundred dollars
so to pay on what they did. The person that
he forced himself on says she gave him a thousand
bucks and asked her to be quiet, yeah and apologize,
so they would get paid and they would be informed
that if they'd like to make more money, they could
recruit their friends to come visit Epstein, so long as
(26:17):
they were around the same age. And some of the handlers,
they're very careful about this. Some of the handlers told
the girls the victims when they first came to Epstein
to say that they were eighteen to him. Who the
idea being that this will providability, Yeah, some kind of
legal defense, but that doesn't fly in Florida. Florida specifically
(26:39):
has laws say ignorance of that age is not an excuse.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Geez, man, you can already see in my mind, I'm
picturing something like Nexium that we covered not long ago. Hm,
that kind of extremely wealthy person somehow just with the
enticement of money, and in Jeffrey's case, I guess in
some way not necessarily for the younger girls, but this
(27:08):
aura of a wealthy man that knows what he's doing
is going to make more money and like has this
special place in Palm Beach, but then also knowing that
perhaps he has an island it's and then getting your friends,
like everything just feels so disgusting and icky about this
and calculated.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, that's the thing. It's very calculated. This is not
an impulse decision, you know what I mean. And not
that not that an impulse decision is in any way better.
It's just that this calculated, organizational systematic approach is it
is insidious.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, it's the spider thing in the web.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And so let's look at some of the characters that
become involved in this ongoing story. First is Epstein's associates
and staff. So one of his assistants was a person
named Sarah Kellen, and Kellen was accused by lawyers and
legal filings of bringing girls to Epstein's mansion to be abused.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, according to the police files, there was this whole
series of alleged victims that told investigators that they were
led like this is the person, Sarah Kellen led these
girls to the massage room in the mansion where all
this other stuff with the disrobing occurred. And this was
in the Palm Beach mansion. I mean, this literally is
(28:36):
a conspiracy.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
There are other players involved that are being used as
pieces in this like elaborate ploy.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean, well, and it's so scary because who knows,
who knows how much of a victim somebody like Sarah
Kellen is of him right early on in some other way,
like she's in his pocket in some way or something. Well,
I mean, yeah, who knows the psychologically trapped. Yeah, that's
not just excusing her of what her actions and what
she did, but still like we don't know the circumstances.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
How deep this guy's kind of tendrils go, you know,
absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And speaking of that, there's another character, Nada Marstankova or Marchinkova.
She We'd first learned about her through statements of some
alleged victims, who one claimed the police that Epstein told
her that he had purchased Nada from her parents in
(29:33):
Eastern Europe when she was fifteen. They were described as
Yugoslavian or Slovakian. Another victim alleged that she was forced
to have sex with Nada marstan Kova and then watch
her have sexual interactions with Epstein. According to the Miami Herald,
(29:54):
sometimes Jeffrey would instruct a young woman he described as
his quote Yugoslavian sex slave, not Mrsenkova, who was over eighteen,
to join in, and he took photographs, and he displayed
these photographs around the house. The guys. There's a phrase
noll that you in your roommate used, I think applies here.
(30:15):
That the guy's proclivities were wide, rife, wide rife throughout
his house. This was not a secret. There was also
Ghislaine Maxwell, the socialite and heiress who was occasionally referred
to as Epstein's madam and was asked to turnover records.
And then there's Alan Dershowitz.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Alan Freakin Dershowitz, whose into.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
This like an enormously prestigious lawyer. He worked with Epstein
on the business side. Dershwitz told outfit called Axios that
Epstein lent his family the Palm Beach, Florida house and
that he received a therapeutic massage with an old Russian there,
but that he'd had no idea anything improper had even
(30:54):
taking place in that house. In twenty eighteen, he said
that Epstein, after this stuff became public, he said, Epstein's
called me a couple times about legal issues because I'm
still technically his lawyer, but I haven't had any social
or any other kind of contact with him. But you
never stopped being someone's lawyer. And then there's a guy
we got to mention just casually he'll come back. Trust
(31:16):
us guy named alex Acosta. He was formerly the US
attorney in South Florida. He's currently the US Secretary of Labor.
We'll get to him in a bit, but just remember
the name alex Acosta.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
We shall remember you. So let's talk about the victims here.
The authority has identified more than thirty victims of Epstein.
And then if you look at the Miami Harold in
their latest report, they identified eighty victims and they located
sixty and spoke to four of them officially on the record.
So again, trying to track down all of these people
(31:51):
who are alleged victims, and you know, you can only
get a certain percentage of those people to even talk
because this kind of thing is it's so in citia.
Even being able to speak about something like this, especially
on the record, is difficult. So let's go through a
few of these. The first one is Virginia gfree geuffree
(32:13):
g I U F f r E. She claimed in
court papers that she was recruited into this whatever you
want to call child's sex ring that this billionaire was
running when she was only fifteen years old. She was
working as a towel girl at mar A Lago, Oh boy,
and that's how she got wrapped up in it. And
(32:35):
she also claims that Dershwitz as well as Prince Andrew
participated in her sexual abuse. What is a towel girl
a towel girl, I'm assuming at mar A Lago because
there's a vast outdoor area at mar A Lago with
a pool and everything like that, as well as there
are or what do you call them, all of the
other things you find out a spa bathhouse kind of thing.
(32:57):
I can only imagine that a towel girl had the towel.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
They bring towels. It's like a like a caddy, but
with towels instead of clubs.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I see. And in this case, she's fifteen, which is fifteen,
and sixteen is a very common age for these private
clubs to hire. When I was fifteen, that's no. Yeah,
when I was fifteen I started working at one of
these places.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Not as a towel girl.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I was in I was a pool boy, right, so
I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
And it's a great and it's also that's a great
summer job for kids. Yeah, it is, you know what
I mean. You make a little scratch, can save up
for Nintendo Switch.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Or whatever, especially out in that area. Some of these
private clubs provide some of the best money for your work. Oh,
I bet.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And then there's Courtney Wilde, who was a victim beginning
at the age of fourteen. Wild says, by the time
I was sixteen, I had probably brought him seventy to
eighty girls who are all fourteen. I'm fifteen years old.
He was involved in my life for years.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Ugh. Ugh, And do you me just not skip over
the fact that this one person Virginia claimed that both
Dershowitz the lawyer and Prince Andrew Royalty were involved. How
intense is that and especially occurring at mar A Lago
where all of these highly important people are just kind
(34:14):
of coming through whenever whenever, and now we have somebody
who's claiming to have brought him seventy to eighty girls.
I'm sorry, we just had to pause for a moment,
and now let's continue with the disgustingness.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So there's Jenna Lisa Jones who said that she was
also she was also assaulted by Epstein when she was fourteen,
and she has a chilling and haunting quote here. I
was I was somewhat divided over whether we should read
it aloud, but here it is. You can't ever stop
(34:53):
your thoughts. A word can trigger something.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
For me.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
It is the word pure, because he called me pure
in that room, and then I remember what he did
to me in that room. Just I don't know gets
to me. And there's Haley Robinson. Virginia Robinson was working
at mar A Lago when she was recruited to be
a massuset to Palm Beach Hedge fund manager Jeffrey Epstein.
(35:16):
There are tons of Jane does. We don't know how
many there are. We know what the Harald found, right
The Harold says they found eighty. They located sixty. They
talked to eight, but only four would go on the
record with their names. And you can understand that too,
because a lot of these people have been quashed by
(35:36):
settlements and non disclosure agreements. A settlement with a NDA
or non disclosure agreement means that if someone if someone
alleges a crime and you want to keep it out
of court, regardless of what it is, you can have
a legal team drop a contract that says, without admitting guilt,
(35:57):
here's X amount of dollars, And in.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Turn, you can't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
You agree to never talk about this. The problem is
that a lot of those things, as we see, don't
really hold up in court if you're asking someone not
to confess a crime, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Those are victims, those are collaborators or as you said,
no old conspirators. But there are some people fighting the
good fight on this side as well.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
So there were several investigators involved in the case. We
have Joseph for Carey, who was the lead detective for
the case, and in his first interview, he said the
evidence the department collected to support the girl's stories was
overwhelming and included all kinds of stuff, all kinds of
damning evidence. Phone call records, copies of written phone messages
(36:46):
from the girls found in Epstein's trash, and Epstein's flight
logs that showed his private plane in Palm Beach on
the days that girls were scheduled to give massages.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Pretty damning stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
The police also showed how eerily consistent the girl's stories were,
just down to the tee, right down to their detailed
descriptions of Epstein's genitalia.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And then there's Michael Writer, who is the former chief
of police in Palm Beach. He was the chief during
this investigation, and he said detectives were astonished by the
sheer volume of victims coming and going from the house,
the frequency, sometimes several in the same day, and the
(37:33):
universally young ages of these girls. Michael Writer says, it
started out to give a man backrup but in many
cases turned us so far worse than that, elevated to
a serious crime in some cases sexual batteries. And then
there's another good I mean, this is almost true detective level,
you know what I mean. Yeah, as far as the
(37:54):
web that is unearthed here, there's the attorney for the victims,
Skinning Brad Edwards. He's representing several of the young women
who were abused as miners by Epstein. His law office
is packed with files from the case, and he's been
fighting the power at every turn, often outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned.
(38:18):
Because you see, that true detective thing is not just
a pop culture reference for us.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Here.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
There are multiple very powerful people that have been implicated
in one way or another with Epstein, and to be fair,
a lot of it is not proven, other than the
fact that we know they hung out, they maybe took
his playing place as the plane, which was also informally
known as the Lolita Express. That's true, was in formally
(38:47):
known as that. But who are some of these implicated
implicated celebrities.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Well, let's jump in first with Bill Clinton, because he
was known to have taken the Lolita Express to the
Virgin Islands, to that island that Epstein owns on numerous occasions,
as well as hanging out at the Palm Beach and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
He went to Africa, Yeah, using that plane. I think
Chris Tucker was on the plane too.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
There's this huge list of celebrities that have been on there,
you know, but Bill Clinton was definitely one of the
ones that popped out in my mind around the time.
This is awful to say, but it was around the
time that Pizzagate was kind of coming out. That's when
I started to really learn about Bill Clinton's involvement with Epstein,
and that connection was one of those things that freaked
(39:35):
me out a little bit and made me start to
think there was more to the whole Pizzagate thing, which
I don't necessarily believe, but it's definitely one of those
things that creeped me out.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And then Donald Trump has come up several times here
current President Donald Trump, he had this association.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
He made that really creepy quote.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
He made that quotation. He made that quote in two
thousand and two that certainly didn't age well. And there's
one thing we do have to say in Donald Trump's defense.
When Trump was when Trump learned that Epstein may have
been romantically entertaining or attempting to recruit underage girls at
(40:18):
mar A Lago or bringing these young women with him,
these young girls, these children with him and calling them
his nieces, which is so creepy, Donald Trump said, Okay, look,
this can't happen here. You gotta go. So Trump asked
him to leave. Trump kicked him out.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I guess I feel like that's the bare minimum of decent. No,
it's not. The bare minimum of decency is calling the police.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah. His his whole thing is just don't do it
where I can also be implicated.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's right, you think that was what it was.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I mean in my opinion, Oh yeah, Oh well, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
I mean, I don't want to throw around implications like that.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
It sure feels like it based on what we know about. Yeah,
the act of kicking someone out or not allowing someone
to do something illegal in your place of business, but
not alerting the authorities that someone is doing something illegal
in your place of business. Now, that's that's that's very damning.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that makes sense.
And then we mentioned Prince Andrew, the Prince Andrew, the
allegations that Epstein forced his teenage victims to become physically
involved with Prince Andrew on three separate occasions. And the
you know, the UK Press is having a field day
(41:35):
with like tabloids like the Sun or whatever.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, what's blowing up right now?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Well, a lot of I mean also a lot of
royalty are untouchable.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
When When's when is the next time? When's the last
time a royal family member went to jail?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Prince Charles spent a lot of time in the old Slamma. No,
I'm just kidding any slam.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Little slammery that's what they call it there, right, So okay,
as we said, the alleged abuse is pretty well documented
by numerous sources going back to at least the nineteen nineties.
And if you want to be less than optimistic, then
you can reasonably say that it's possible it went or
(42:24):
went back earlier than that. So how did this go
from rumors scuttle button secrecy to an actual legal matter.
How did the cops get involved? Well we'll get to
that right after a quick break.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
So let's start in March of two thousand and five,
when a woman called the police in Palm Beach, and
after first refusing to give her name, she said that
she believed her fourteen year old stepdaughter had in some
way been molested by a wealthy man, just a wealthy man. So,
at the time, the victim in this case lived at
(43:07):
this involuntary admitted juvenile education facility, which I'm assuming is
some kind of juvi what you would call a juvi
or I guess something to that effect, because she was
having behavioral problems, right, So apparently she shows up at
this school with three hundred dollars cash in her purse,
(43:28):
and it became basically the talk of the class. Everybody's saying,
oh my god, you see that she's got three hundred cash.
Now you get that, dude, that's crazy. And then the
friend called the girl a terrible name, yes we'll say it,
a whore. Another friend put a fist through the wall
in anger, apparently like punched the wall. And then the
(43:49):
girl left school, and then the stepmother gets this call
from another student's mother. So this just this act of
bringing three hundred dollars into this school was enough to
get basically the entire school talking. Then a policewoman was
talking to the girl with a therapist there, so they're
just having a conversation about what's going on. That's when
(44:10):
this victim she begins crying and breaking down, and she
dug her finger into her thigh and she just began
out telling this entire story about how she was. She
was taken to this big house on the Atlantic in
the Intracoastal Waterway, which is where Epstein's mansion was located.
(44:34):
She remembers climbing this spiral staircase to the master bedroom
where this woman, a blonde woman who you know, she's
probably in her twenties, twenty five or something.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is likely Sarah Kellen.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
It's probably, yes, exactly, probably Sarah Kellen. She wasn't very friendly.
She laid out sheets as she put lotions on a
massage table, and then she leaves. That's when Jeffrey Epstein
comes in. This is the story. Worry this similar story
that we've already talked about. He's naked except for a towel.
He sternly orders the girl to take off her clothes
(45:07):
and then the rest of the details are pretty much
what you've heard before and stuff that I honestly don't
want to say here. But the police at this point
were very much convinced that this was at least worth
looking into.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
And then this girl says that she had been brought
there by two other girls. Please spoke to those two girls.
Those two girls pointed to two more girls who had
also been there and also recruited them. By the time
detectives tracked down one victim, there were two or three
more to find, and very very soon there were dozens.
(45:43):
So also in two thousand and five, the Palm Beach
PD obtains a search warrant and they visit Epstein's mansion.
They cart off massage tables, photos of naked girls, soaps
shaped like Genitalia. Epstein sent an urgent message to the
detectives through his attorney. It said, the shadiest thing.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Mister Epstein is this is laughable. I'm sorry, this is
just mister Epstein is very passionate about massages. The massages
are therapeutic and spiritually sound for him.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
That is why he has had many massages. I mean, really,
I'm sorry, I'm laughing. It's just come on.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
It's laughable. It's like it's such a bad attempt at
an excuse that it sounds like it was poorly translated
from a different language.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah. Well, the craziest thing here is that if you're
a wealthy individual and you really are passionate about massages,
it makes sense that you have massage therapy equipment in
your home. You can afford that, even rooms dedicated just
to getting therapeutic massages, and you can also hire a masseuse.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
A professional massuse, which she did have. He paid her
one hundred dollars an hour. There you go, so he
had a professional messuse.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yes, there are your massages that you're passionate about, enjoy them.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So we shall also note that computers and hardware were
missing in the mansion.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
In two thousand and five when the Palm Beach investigators
were to.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Be taken out pretty quickly, so that's two thousand and five.
They're fighting this in court. As as we said earlier,
the head detective on the cases like we have this,
this is five by five, this is buttoned up, this
is game over, you know what I mean. Yeah, But
then quickly what he sees is that there are there's
(47:43):
a network of things, institutions and people stymying the investigation.
And this is where our previous cast member, Acosta makes.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
A return, good old Alex Costa.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Remember we said he was a state attorney there for Florida.
He started meeting with Epstein's team, who had such legal
luminaries Zalan Derschwitz, Kenneth Starr from the Clinton investigation. Where
these guys are in terms of their legal reputation, these
(48:22):
are very, very influential and prominent lawyers and legal minds.
So Acosta and his team eventually, in two thousand and eight,
they strike a secret deal with Epstein to shield him
from federal investigation and prosecution. The victims were not made
aware of this agreement. It was called a quote non
(48:44):
prosecution deal. Acosta and his team at the time were
in possession of a fifty three page draft indictment charging
Epstein with serial child abuse child molestation. Instead, he took instead, Acosta,
acting on behalf of the US government, keep in mind,
(49:06):
gave Epstein. This this deal in instead of quurte essentially
immunity pretty much and worse than immunity. So Epstein pled
guilty to two state level prostitution charges, so not sex trafficking,
prostitution charges. They essentially made him a john. And what
(49:29):
did he get in exchange for that?
Speaker 3 (49:32):
And man, I mean talk about a sweetheart deal. This
is a lot immunity from all related federal criminal charges,
not only for himself, but also for any quote, any
potential co conspirators, royalty.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, yeah, oh my god, the President.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Anyone who might have been involved in these alleged federal crimes.
This provision would effectively completely shut down any FBI investigation,
any further investigation into the evidence, the overwhelming evidence, the
piles of evidence.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Of international sex trafficking.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yeah, and essentially make it retroactively legal for anyone to
have conspired with him to rape any of the alleged victims.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Good god.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
He did get jail time. He got a thirteen month sentence.
He served it in a private wing of the county jail,
and he was there except for the six days a
week when he was on work release. He would he
went to he commuted to his private office for twelve hours,
(50:47):
and his sentence was eighteen months, but he just served thirteen.
There was also we mentioned this earlier, but there was
also this important legal snag. There was a commitment verified
through email chain, that this agreement would be kept secret
from the people identifying as victims, so that they would
(51:09):
not have the opportunity to protest this extraordinary agreement in court.
And that's despite the fact that keeping a plea agreement
secret from victims is a violation of the law and
it should go without saying, this is not the typical
plea deal. For his part, Acosta and his team would
(51:31):
later say, all right, we caved on this agreement, but
we did it because we were being harassed by Epstein's
high powered legal team. They hired private investigators to defame witnesses,
to dive into personal lives. They said they felt physically threatened. However,
(51:52):
emails and documents show the lie here. The relationship between
federal prosecutors in Epstein's was more collaborative than adversarial. They
spent a lot of time figuring out how to settle
the case with the smallest amount of scandal. They even
decided not to charge them with the sex offense, they
(52:15):
considered witness tampering and obstruction charges and misdemeanors, and they
wanted to allow Epstein to secretly plead guilty in Miami
instead of Palm Beach County, where the victims lived, because
that would limit media exposure and it would make it
less likely for the victims to appear at sentencing. And
they also in these emails, again leaked by the Herald,
(52:36):
they also referenced discussions they wanted to have by phone
or in person, so there wasn't a paper trail. And
this agreement, this non prosecution agreement, sealed until after it
was approved by a judge, made it virtually impossible for
anyone to interfere, including Edwards, the attorney. This all came
(52:58):
to public attention with the Miami Herald released a comprehensive, damning,
groundbreaking investigation of Epstein's activities and the Pleat deal and
the corruption and the long term damage to the underage victims.
Yet at this point there's very little indication that that
deal will be thrown out or reneged upon, because he
(53:19):
already fulfilled his part of the agreement. And I guess
we just have to emphasize how extraordinary. It is that
there's a federal agreement that says, not only do you
have to do this, not only are suddenly now calling
abused children prostitutes, which itself is an offensive term, right,
(53:41):
because that's they're trying to be defamatory. Believe the correct
term is sex worker.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
So not only are they doing that, but they're also saying,
if any potential co conspirator worked with you, then they're
scott free. Yeah, scott free.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Just by association, like even if they weren't named, like
they were discovered later.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Those are the real This is my This is my take.
It's not about Jeffrey Epstein, and it's not about the
billions and billions of dollars that he manages. It's about
the high powered people. In my opinion, this is not proven.
The high powered people that took trips with him on
that Lolita Express, the high powered people they got massages
(54:26):
other than Jeffrey Epstein. That's why he got that deal. No,
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
I mean, because it's just it makes no sense. And
I believe the lawyer that got him that deal is
now a member of Trump's cabinet.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yeah, Alex Cossa's Secretary of Labor.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean once you start getting into those circles,
those those power circles, there is just so much insulation
that can happen. Favors owed, you know, from high up
politicians or law enforcement or whatever, and people.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Call that stuff in it it's real. This is not
tinfoil hat stuff, not imaginary. These people have immunity to
future international sex trafficking. They have immunity to anything that
they would catch them up in that And it's like,
it's ten years since two thousand and eight he spent
(55:18):
his time in prison. Do you guys really think all
of this, any of this has stopped. I mean, the
guy is probably under surveillance of some sort, even though
well would he be, because why would you spend your
money if you're even the FBI or even the CIA
looking at international stuff going on, which I guess I
don't know how that works with the Virgin Islands because
(55:39):
technically aren't they part of the United States?
Speaker 1 (55:42):
The US Virgin Islands.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, okay, yeah, it's just it's so infuriating to think
that this kind of terrible abuse is occurring and is
allowed to occur, and it's simply because have money and
tremendous power.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
So maybe an act of Congress could change it, could
trigger it, you know, maybe just legally speaking. Legally speaking,
it's tough to get this. I mean, the DOJ is
in this. You know. I hesitate so often to accuse
(56:27):
people of operating in large groups and lockstep because, as
we know, groups of people stink at cooperation after a
certain threshold has reached. But while we were working on this,
and while we're looking into it, I honestly started to wonder,
(56:49):
you know, will there be consequences for us for making
this episode interesting? Which I rarely think about. And you know,
I don't think anybody cares what we have to say
about this, but we do want to get this out
in the public sphere because regardless of what actually happened,
even if you want to take this entities side and
(57:14):
say that this was some sort of hit piece or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yeah, since two thousand and five and before that, sure, since.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
The eighties, something happened, Something happened. There wouldn't be a
deal like that. If there wasn't pernicious, horrific stuff there.
Powerful people needed to be Powerful people are conspiring right
and closing ranks. This is infuriating. This is infuriating. We
(57:47):
want to hear what you think. Thank you for listening.
We want to know what you believe would be the
next step for a legitimate investigation which did not occur
right at least on Uncle Sam's part. We want to
know how far you think this goes. We want to
(58:07):
know who else you think is involved, who are those
unnamed potential co conspirators, And most importantly want you to
know that, as we say in any episode that deals
with the horror of abuse, that if you are if
you have found yourself in that situation, or if you
(58:30):
know someone that is in a situation like that, you
are not alone. You are not powerless. There are people
who are there to help and support you. You can
call one eight hundred sixty five six four six seven three.
That's one eight hundred sixty five six hope and contact
people at the National Sexual Assault Telephone Hotline.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
I don't know what else to say here. That's thank you,
Ben for that. If you want to learn more, literally,
just do some Google searches. The Guardian is a good
place to start. Like we said in New York mag Miami, Harold,
there are a bunch of places where you if you
(59:14):
want to continue to follow this story.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
You can, and I will say that there's some hope
here because we're obviously in a time where powerful men
are getting taken to task more so than we've seen
in the past, certainly, but it still feels like once
you get when you're at a certain level, it's very hard,
you know what I mean, It's very hard to actually
make people answer for their crimes, even if it's all
laid out on the table like this, which is which
(59:37):
is the most gut wrenching part of this story. That
it's like there's no doubt in anyone's mind of this
stuff happened. And like you said, Matt, when you know
back in the circulation, aside from maybe keeping his nose
clean to appease his handlers for a little while, you know,
this is a man that has a mission. He's driven
to behave this way, and the fact that he's allowed
(59:58):
to be out in.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Makes me sick, all right? So what do you think?
Right to us? Find us on social media where conspiracy
stuff in most places, conspiracy stuff show on Instagram, Join
us on Facebook and our group. Here's where it gets crazy.
If you want to get into a discussion about this.
It'll be a difficult one for our mods. Sorry everyone,
(01:00:26):
but let's just you know, let's try and have a
conversation about this that isn't that it doesn't turn into
a flame war because nothing. We don't have to turn
discussions about something as word as this into just being
angry at each other. Let's try and figure out something.
So let's go have a discussion on here's where it
(01:00:47):
gets crazy on Facebook. If you don't want to do that,
and that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can
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One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.
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(01:01:07):
us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:01:13):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome back to the show, fellow conspiracy realist. The following
classic episode may not be appropriate for all listeners, so
if you've got some kiddos in the crowd in the
road trip with you, maybe check out a future episode
or tune into our earlier interview with Aaron Manky. This
is the story of Jeffrey Epstein at its way back
(00:23):
in what January twenty nineteen.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Yes, this is right before the major news started hitting
or with Jeffrey Epstein getting arrested and all the stuff
that we're not going to spoil right now. Just to
listen to this episode because it takes you back to
a time when I think maybe we and much of
(00:46):
the world was really discovering what this guy was doing.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
Yeah, and again, at this time that we recorded it,
one of our big questions was why is this guy
not arrested? So you can get a snapshot here and
tune in for our upcoming episode on the aftermath of
the Epstein scandal. From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies,
(01:12):
history is riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back
now or learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
My name is Noman. They call me Ben. We are
joined with our super producer Paul Mission controlled Decat most importantly,
you are here and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Before we get started, we have
a very important message regarding today's episode.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
Today's episode discusses very frankly, some horrific sexual crimes against
underaged victims, and it's quite disturbing, but I think it's
an important discussion to have and we try as always
to be as respectful and thoughtful about it as possible.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Let's cut straight to the heart of the matter. In
an earlier episode, we mentioned the ongoing legal battles of
one Jeffrey Epstein. Today we are diving into a sordid
tale that will take us from the posh tony area
of Palm Beach Island, Florida, to New York, to New Mexico,
to Paris, to a private island in the Virgin Islands
(02:35):
and a particularly strange series of private plane flights. But
first things first, who is Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Oh, the man of the hour. Jeffrey Epstein was born
in nineteen fifty three on Coney Island. He went to
Lafayette High School. He also attended Cooper Union. He dropped
out of Cooper Union. By the way. He also went
to New York University's current Institute, which he also left
without a degree, surprisingly, especially as we continue to learn
(03:08):
a little more about this gentleman.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Yeah. Yeah. For two years, from nineteen seventy three to
nineteen seventy five, Epstein taught at a very upscale Ivy
League prep school called Dalton School in Manhattan. You'll read
accounts that say he taught calculus and physics, and then
you'll read accounts that say he taught physics and math.
But it was definitely the quantitative, the quantitative disciplines. New
(03:34):
York Magazine initially likened his time at Dalton School to
the teacher that Robin Williams plays in Dead Poets Society.
Do you guys remember that film.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Oh Captain, My Captain, Yeah, man, the first really really
sad movie I ever saw.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Right, Yeah, poetry was made for one reason, boys to.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Woo women and also carpe dm Right.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So, one parent of a student worked on Wall Street,
and this guy was so inspired by Epstein's methods and
the math rants that he was known for that he
approached Jeffrey Epstein and said, essentially, what the hell are
you doing here, buddy, Why are you a teacher? You
should be on Wall Street, which lets you know what
(04:20):
Wall Street thinks about teachers.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yeah, why would you be inspiring the young people? Just
make more money.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And so this guy, this parent, doubled out on this
and said, no, really, I'm serious, jeff Let me introduce
you to my buddy, Ace Greenberg. You've got to call him.
Ace Greenberg is a senior partner at the time at
bear Stearns. Greenberg really dug Epstein because this guy Greenberg
(04:49):
definitely played favorites. And one thing that he was known
for was he had a certain type of young employee
he liked or knew hire. He didn't want people who
were just fattened off inherited money or third generation bankers.
He wanted brilliant poor people and poor as anything beneath
(05:09):
a millionaire to him, who were very, very hungry. And
at the time, Epstein ticked all these boxes. So nineteen
seventy six he says, all right, screw teaching, I'm going
to work at bear Stearns under as Greenberg. He started
from the bottom kind of the way Drake wants you
to believe his career began it's untrue, But in Epstein's case,
(05:32):
it is. He started as a junior assistant to a
floor trader at the American Stock Exchange, and it quickly
became apparent that Jeff had a gift for this sort
of work.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
So Epstein was, to be fair either a complete genius
or very very close to that. He had a specialty,
which was in options, and that was at the time
something that wasn't particularly well understood, and he amassed a
group of clients, really really quite wealthy clients who thought
(06:04):
that his ability to assess the tax implications on large
portfolios and then to recommend kind of tax loopholes I
guess advantages you could say for some of these transactions.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Yeah. Absolutely, this At this level of finance, the way
in which you move money and the order of operations
can make a huge difference in how much of a
cut Uncle Sam gets or the state of New York
or whatever.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
And it's really crazy that it only took him four
years to go from assistant to a floor trader all
the way up to a full partner.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
Yeah, he beat the game. He became a partner and
then what do you do after you beat a game?
You stop playing. So he left the firm in nineteen
eighty one and set up his own shop. This is
really this is really strange and sketchy. Okay. So the
premise behind his shop, Epstein and Co. Is that he
would manage the individual and family fortunes of clients with
(07:06):
a minimum of one billion dollars in their portfolio.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Wow. Minimum.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Yeah, And according to the scuttle butt about this guy
in nineteen eighty two, he immediately began collecting clients. And
he didn't go out and have some sort of Ted
talk or some sort of Steve Jobs big Apple reveal speech.
People just started coming to him because they knew he
was open for business and he was also very controlling.
(07:35):
He had these specific conditions. If you made one billion
or more, you could talk, but you also had to
accept this. He would not just offer investment advice. He
was going to become your financial architect, from soup to nuts,
stem to stern, from investments to philanthropy to tax planning
to security to a swatching. The guilt and burdens that
(07:58):
people felt because they had, you know, inherited wealth that
they clearly did not earn. He said to one of
his friends at the time, I want people to understand
the power, the responsibility, and the burden of their money.
He would take total control of the billion dollars. He
would charge a flat fee, and he would also get
power of attorney to do whatever he deemed necessary to
(08:21):
advance his client's financial goals. And he was really strict
about all these conditions.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
And there's this whole thing where he really did stick
to this whole. If you're a billionaire, we're cool. If
you're not, get the hell out. I mean it's I mean,
as crazy as that sounds, like. People would come to
him with seven hundred million dollars, put it on the
table essentially, and say, Jeff, I need your help, buddy.
I've got seven hundred million dollars and I need you
(08:50):
to work this through or three and he's like, no,
get out, basically, not so kind, no thank you, basically because.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
They were just a little that billion. Yeah, it's like
I don't run a business for hobos. Yeah, And that's okay.
So there is a quick pause here because that's a
question I have. How many billionaires were there in nineteen
eighty one. We know there are more now, you know,
partially due to inflation, partially due to rise of business
(09:20):
in other countries. But were there that many billionaires in
nineteen eighty one, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
I would think not.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
I would imagine it was a very very rarefied field,
right were they couldn't have been that many.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
I mean that inherited wealth. There are at least several
hundred families that have.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You know, that's true because I was thinking of individuals.
So it might be like a dynasty that collects all
of their ill gotten.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Gains or happy gotten gains. You know, some billionaires are
really sweet and do nice things for the earth and
for its inhabitants.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Right sure, maybe I don't personally know everybody on the planet,
so I want to be fair.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Well, there's also probably some that you know, do it
with great humility and just don't brag about it, right, right,
I would, I would, I would hope.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
But then you give it to Jeffrey Epstein who says
I'll handle you all.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
And that's, you know, that's the smart thing to do.
It just makes me think of that Balls Act quote.
Behind every great fortune, there is a crime, you know.
But yeah, you guys are absolutely right there are clearly
people who you know, if you're born into wealth and
you don't have control over your circumstances, then of course
(10:41):
there are people who want to do great acts to
make the world a better place. Bill Gates took himself
down several notches financially to help combat disease. That's that's
a stand up thing. I still hate Clippy, but fighting
disease is a noble thing.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Do you know what? When Josh Chuck interviewed Bill Gates,
I actually got to go with them and meet him
in a hotel room, and Josh brought up Clippy, and
apparently Bill Gates is still quite fond of Clippy.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
Yeah, Bill Gates loves Clippy. He has like a relationship
with it.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Uh, he's the only one.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
So when I was a kid, I liked it, but
it just slowed down the word processor. So, speaking of billionaires,
who are Jeffrey's clients? Aside from one client, a billionaire
named Leslie Wexler. Epstein keeps his list a closely guarded secret,
and he's also sort of evasive about his process and
(11:38):
what he does. Yeah, you could call it wealth management,
but that's sort of like calling something a structure. A
shot can be a structure, so can a skyscraper or
a pyramid or a nuclear bunker. There are a lot
of things that could be considered that wealth management. So
he's firm employees as many or employed as many as
(12:01):
one hundred and fifty people, but their tasks were overwhelmingly
day to day bureaucracy and admin stuff like accountants to
make sure the internal finances of the company are running.
All the actual decisions, investment and management decisions were made
by Epstein himself, and he's sort of computer phobic, not
a big fan of emails and so on, so he's
(12:22):
always talking on the phone, which will be important later.
So how much money is he making. Some estimates will
say he is or was raking in around seventy five
million a year, but that's a guestimate, and that's why
in a lot of stories about the guy, and there
weren't many until fairly recently, you'll hear him described as
(12:44):
either a multi millionaire or a billionaire. People don't really know.
Speaker 2 (12:47):
Yeah, you have to imagine if he's bringing in even
somewhere around seventy five million dollars a year with his acumen,
his understanding of investment, he's probably gotten well upward of
a billion, I'm assuming.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Well, it's like the Putin question. How much money does
Vladimir Putin have?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Not? I mean, which palace are you going to search?
Speaker 1 (13:09):
Right? How long do you want to live?
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Oh jeez? Okay, Well here's the big question. With however
much money he's acquired. What does a guy like Jeffrey
Epstein do with all of those piles of cash?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Beanie babies?
Speaker 2 (13:26):
He sets them on fire? Oh man, see, buy a
bunch of beanie babies, buy them a bunch of magic cards,
then set the whole thing on fire.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Wear it a cape. What's his monoical top hat position?
Speaker 2 (13:39):
I don't know. Well, I'll tell you for real what
he does is and what anyone should probably do.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
I want a cape so bad, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Buy a cape first, then just start purchasing real estate,
purchasing land, purchasing stuff that goes on land, different structures.
Put them on land that you own. That's what you do.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah, so he owns that private island in the US
Virgin Islands. We didn't mention what the nickname for this
thing is. No, it's Little Saint Jeffrey.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Little Saint Jeffrey.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Well lit saints, Jeffrey of the US virtu pilots.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, but seriously, he owns an island.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
He owns an island. It's it's who was asking Oh,
Jonathan Strickland was asking me about this earlier. And it
is in fact not shaped like a skull, which I
know is a huge downer for everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Do you think he still has a layer though.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Yes, he does have a layer. He also has a
Japanese bathhouse on this island.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yeah, we're gonna learn more about that in just a
little bit. But here's the other thing, Noel, he owns
on the island of Manhattan, the what is considered the
largest private.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Residence nine stories tall.
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Yeah, he owns that and an island. It's insane.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
He also funds extensive, legitimate scientific research through something humbly
named the Jeffrey Epstein the six the Foundation.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
And it's cool. It is genuinely cool.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
It's genuinely good. Since two thousand, the foundation is given
around two hundred million a year per year to people
like Stephen Hawking, Marvin Minsky, Eric Lander, George Church, Ben Goertzel,
other like numerous Nobel.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Laureates, Lawrence Krausman.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Lawrence Krauss as well, And over the years, the Foundation
has brought a lot of these scientists together and these
sort of brainstorming conference situations to get on the same
page about fundamental topics like gravity, global threats to Earth,
the evolution of language. So you can see some of
(15:42):
the implications here. Usually when billionaires or philanthropists are saying,
let's understand gravity, they're asking, how can we use it somehow?
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, global threats to Earth. I mean, this all goes
back to making smart investment choices too. I think the
language thing is really interesting. I'm sure there's a lot
of group think theory because that would be valuable in
the stock market.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
So this is, in my opinion, one of those things
that you do see every once in a while when
a certain individual or a group acquires enough wealth that
philanthropy is able to kick in at this point, at
least to this level where a big, a new creation
occurs that is helping that truly is helping humanity in
(16:26):
some way, in some small way. In this case, just
bringing scientists to a consensus could be massively important to
get everyone on the same page to actually get the
Earth to start making some big changes, right, Rather than
just a country or one small groups. It's tough for
me to know this and then also know what we're
(16:49):
going to talk about in just a few minutes.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Right, Let's stick with the good stuff while we can.
You can see the official about age for the Epstein
Foundation when he talks about how his funded in two
thousand and how it in two thousand and three established
a program for evolutionary dynamics at Harvard University with thirty
thirty five million dollars seed money gift. The program studies
(17:14):
the evolution of microbiology through the lens of mathematics. Then,
since its establishment, it's made advances in the treatment of cancer, HIV,
infectious diseases. He's also get this well known for his
work funding early education for youth in the Virgin Islands
(17:34):
to other places other areas of the world.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
So far, so good, right, Yeah, these are genuinely good things.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
Jeffrey Epstein, a self made financial giant. Isn't just killing it.
In the world of finance, A lot of finance guys
defined success by violent terms. Crushing it, killing it, nailed it,
so smashing it, smashing it.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
Destroyed that.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, he did all of that stuff. He's also putting
a significant amount of capital into globally important issues, though
his motivations are not clearly, not entirely true, altruistic, you
can make some money off that. Yet, while Epstein remained
for many years an international man of intrigue and mystery, tantalizing,
bits of information about his private life gradually emerged. And
(18:19):
that's when things got ugly.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And we'll learn about those things right after a quick
word from our sponsor.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Rumors.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
We're true, yep, even more so than we thought.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Wait waits, there were rumors. Guys.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yes, she was well open secrets. Ah, people called nieces.
That's a gross that's a gross detail. First, let's get
let's get the one almost side note rumor out of
the way. He's a member of a lot of clubs.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah. The Trilateral Commission that you may remember from an
episode that we've done. We have done an audio episode
on Trilateral right, I don't remember. Oh man, it's in
a video. Go check out our YouTube channel and watch
the Trilateral Commission if you don't know much about it.
Also the Council on Foreign Relations also a video also
(19:21):
maybe not audio topic yet, honestly, don't know.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
A ton of people are in the Council of Foreign Relations, and.
Speaker 2 (19:27):
Yeah, you know, the Trilateral Commission has movers and shakers
that kind of come and go over time. But you
can imagine how upsetting these two things are for certain
a certain number of us within the conspiracy minded world, like,
being a part of both of those organizations is pretty bad,
because just being part of one is potentially bad. It
(19:48):
isn't necessarily a bad thing overall, but for people who
believe this, yes it is.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Do you think they have capes capes not like in
public but when.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
They're in the meetings. Yeah, I think it's more of
like crowns and different masks that they wear.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Okay, yeah, yeah, Okay, I mean I feel like that's
a big compromise. Okay, maybe you have to be in
this straight up illuminati to earn a cape.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
So that you know, that's one of those things that
makes you go ooh, interesting, I wanted to know more
about this guy if you're of a certain mind. But
there's another thing.
Speaker 1 (20:28):
And this is we're being relatively lighthearted about the inequality
of wealth and the globe and some of the ridiculous
things that could happen when you're a billionaire.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Because those are the lighthearted things.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
The multi millionaire. Yeah, but those are the lighthearted things.
This is where this is where the disclaimer, the warning
we had at the beginning, really comes into effect. From
here on out, things are going to be pretty pretty dark.
So Secondly, and apparently for decades, Jeffrey Epstein had been
(21:03):
routinely seducing, assaulting, and in some cases violently assaulting underage girls.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And it goes even further than that. The really upsetting
thing is that this whole deal that he had going
on seemed to be pretty much an open secret in
certain parts of both Wall Street as well as Washington.
Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah, we have a quote from current president as we
record this, Donald Trump in two thousand and two, talking
about his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
He said, I've known jeff for fifteen years. Terrific guy.
He's a lot of fun to be with.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
It's even said that he likes beautiful women as much
as I do, and many of them are on the
younger side, no doubt about it.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
Jeffrey enjoys his social life. Well, that was hard to
get through that.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
I know. You know, that guy's the president. Yeah, that
guy's the president. In a two thousand and seven New
York Magazine article, Vanity Fair column list Michael Wolfe described
flying on Epstein's private plane in the nineties, saying Epstein
was followed onto the plane by how shall I say this,
by three teenage girls, not his daughters, who were eighteen
(22:22):
nineteen twenty. Who knows they were model like. He's never
been secretive about the girls, wolf said. At one point,
when his troubles began, he was talking to me and said, Hey,
what can I say? I like young girls? I said,
maybe you should say I like young women.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
A lot of smoke.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
A lot of smoke here, A lot of smoke, A
lot of smoke. The mainstream public learned of this semi
open secret in the early two thousands, thanks in large
part to some groundbreaking work by the Miami Herald. These
encounters with undraged under A victims the ones that were
the subject of the investigation in Florida. They took place
(23:05):
from nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and five in
mister Epstein's mansions, the one in Palm Beach Island, New York,
and the US Virgin Islands. Many of the girls were
runaways or foster children. People from broken homes, people of
vulnerable situations. And it's important to note Epstein did not
work alone, like we remember when Matt earlier said this
(23:30):
is just the beginning.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
His his operation functioned like a pyramid scheme. A girl
would be approached by one of Epstein's assistants or often
a previous victim, and told, hey, you can make pretty
good money by giving this middle aged rich guy a massage.
Already creepy, right, So once the victim arrives at the mansion,
(23:58):
this in the Palm Beach operation, at least not far
from Mar al Lago, not very far, she would be
escorted to a particular room and then that person would leave,
and you can find descriptions of the room in the
Miami Herald's piece. Epstein would come in wearing only a
(24:18):
towel on the phone, this robe, lay down naked, belly down,
belly first, and he would tell the victim to massage
his legs. And then you would start escalating this stuff
and offering more money. Also, there were sex toys around.
(24:42):
And again I cannot emphasize this enough. When we say underage,
we're talking about kids who are fourteen and fifteen years old.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I can't even say words. I'm going to be making
guttural noises for the rest of this.
Speaker 3 (24:58):
And I know this doesn't make me like special sensitive,
but it does a little just having a daughter that's
entering into kind of the teenage pre teenage phase.
Speaker 2 (25:06):
Yes, I mean, I can't even imagine.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
It's insane things. A lot of these kids are coming
from terrible home lives anyway, you know, so.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
They're even like thinking they might get an opportunity or
something that might help them out, and right they're just
totally abused and used.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
The rage, the rage really just immediately sets in. We
haven't even gotten like all the way into this.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
So he would attempt to entice entice some victims to
disrobe and do increasingly intimate physical things. He would intimidate others.
In at least one case that made it to the
public sphere, he did forcibly assault somewhat, and afterwards the
(25:54):
girls would be paid two hundred and three hundred dollars
so to pay on what they did. The person that
he forced himself on says she gave him a thousand
bucks and asked her to be quiet, yeah and apologize,
so they would get paid and they would be informed
that if they'd like to make more money, they could
recruit their friends to come visit Epstein, so long as
(26:17):
they were around the same age. And some of the handlers,
they're very careful about this. Some of the handlers told
the girls the victims when they first came to Epstein
to say that they were eighteen to him. Who the
idea being that this will providability, Yeah, some kind of
legal defense, but that doesn't fly in Florida. Florida specifically
(26:39):
has laws say ignorance of that age is not an excuse.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Geez, man, you can already see in my mind, I'm
picturing something like Nexium that we covered not long ago. Hm,
that kind of extremely wealthy person somehow just with the
enticement of money, and in Jeffrey's case, I guess in
some way not necessarily for the younger girls, but this
(27:08):
aura of a wealthy man that knows what he's doing
is going to make more money and like has this
special place in Palm Beach, but then also knowing that
perhaps he has an island it's and then getting your friends,
like everything just feels so disgusting and icky about this
and calculated.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, that's the thing. It's very calculated. This is not
an impulse decision, you know what I mean. And not
that not that an impulse decision is in any way better.
It's just that this calculated, organizational systematic approach is it
is insidious.
Speaker 2 (27:47):
Yeah, it's the spider thing in the web.
Speaker 1 (27:49):
And so let's look at some of the characters that
become involved in this ongoing story. First is Epstein's associates
and staff. So one of his assistants was a person
named Sarah Kellen, and Kellen was accused by lawyers and
legal filings of bringing girls to Epstein's mansion to be abused.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Yeah, according to the police files, there was this whole
series of alleged victims that told investigators that they were
led like this is the person, Sarah Kellen led these
girls to the massage room in the mansion where all
this other stuff with the disrobing occurred. And this was
in the Palm Beach mansion. I mean, this literally is
(28:36):
a conspiracy.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
There are other players involved that are being used as
pieces in this like elaborate ploy.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
I mean, well, and it's so scary because who knows,
who knows how much of a victim somebody like Sarah
Kellen is of him right early on in some other way,
like she's in his pocket in some way or something. Well,
I mean, yeah, who knows the psychologically trapped. Yeah, that's
not just excusing her of what her actions and what
she did, but still like we don't know the circumstances.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
How deep this guy's kind of tendrils go, you know,
absolutely terrifying.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
And speaking of that, there's another character, Nada Marstankova or Marchinkova.
She We'd first learned about her through statements of some
alleged victims, who one claimed the police that Epstein told
her that he had purchased Nada from her parents in
(29:33):
Eastern Europe when she was fifteen. They were described as
Yugoslavian or Slovakian. Another victim alleged that she was forced
to have sex with Nada marstan Kova and then watch
her have sexual interactions with Epstein. According to the Miami Herald,
(29:54):
sometimes Jeffrey would instruct a young woman he described as
his quote Yugoslavian sex slave, not Mrsenkova, who was over eighteen,
to join in, and he took photographs, and he displayed
these photographs around the house. The guys. There's a phrase
noll that you in your roommate used, I think applies here.
(30:15):
That the guy's proclivities were wide, rife, wide rife throughout
his house. This was not a secret. There was also
Ghislaine Maxwell, the socialite and heiress who was occasionally referred
to as Epstein's madam and was asked to turnover records.
And then there's Alan Dershowitz.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Alan Freakin Dershowitz, whose into.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
This like an enormously prestigious lawyer. He worked with Epstein
on the business side. Dershwitz told outfit called Axios that
Epstein lent his family the Palm Beach, Florida house and
that he received a therapeutic massage with an old Russian there,
but that he'd had no idea anything improper had even
(30:54):
taking place in that house. In twenty eighteen, he said
that Epstein, after this stuff became public, he said, Epstein's
called me a couple times about legal issues because I'm
still technically his lawyer, but I haven't had any social
or any other kind of contact with him. But you
never stopped being someone's lawyer. And then there's a guy
we got to mention just casually he'll come back. Trust
(31:16):
us guy named alex Acosta. He was formerly the US
attorney in South Florida. He's currently the US Secretary of Labor.
We'll get to him in a bit, but just remember
the name alex Acosta.
Speaker 2 (31:28):
We shall remember you. So let's talk about the victims here.
The authority has identified more than thirty victims of Epstein.
And then if you look at the Miami Harold in
their latest report, they identified eighty victims and they located
sixty and spoke to four of them officially on the record.
So again, trying to track down all of these people
(31:51):
who are alleged victims, and you know, you can only
get a certain percentage of those people to even talk
because this kind of thing is it's so in citia.
Even being able to speak about something like this, especially
on the record, is difficult. So let's go through a
few of these. The first one is Virginia gfree geuffree
(32:13):
g I U F f r E. She claimed in
court papers that she was recruited into this whatever you
want to call child's sex ring that this billionaire was
running when she was only fifteen years old. She was
working as a towel girl at mar A Lago, Oh boy,
and that's how she got wrapped up in it. And
(32:35):
she also claims that Dershwitz as well as Prince Andrew
participated in her sexual abuse. What is a towel girl
a towel girl, I'm assuming at mar A Lago because
there's a vast outdoor area at mar A Lago with
a pool and everything like that, as well as there
are or what do you call them, all of the
other things you find out a spa bathhouse kind of thing.
(32:57):
I can only imagine that a towel girl had the towel.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
They bring towels. It's like a like a caddy, but
with towels instead of clubs.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I see. And in this case, she's fifteen, which is fifteen,
and sixteen is a very common age for these private
clubs to hire. When I was fifteen, that's no. Yeah,
when I was fifteen I started working at one of
these places.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Not as a towel girl.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
I was in I was a pool boy, right, so
I mean.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
And it's a great and it's also that's a great
summer job for kids. Yeah, it is, you know what
I mean. You make a little scratch, can save up
for Nintendo Switch.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Or whatever, especially out in that area. Some of these
private clubs provide some of the best money for your work. Oh,
I bet.
Speaker 1 (33:38):
And then there's Courtney Wilde, who was a victim beginning
at the age of fourteen. Wild says, by the time
I was sixteen, I had probably brought him seventy to
eighty girls who are all fourteen. I'm fifteen years old.
He was involved in my life for years.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Ugh. Ugh, And do you me just not skip over
the fact that this one person Virginia claimed that both
Dershowitz the lawyer and Prince Andrew Royalty were involved. How
intense is that and especially occurring at mar A Lago
where all of these highly important people are just kind
(34:14):
of coming through whenever whenever, and now we have somebody
who's claiming to have brought him seventy to eighty girls.
I'm sorry, we just had to pause for a moment,
and now let's continue with the disgustingness.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
So there's Jenna Lisa Jones who said that she was
also she was also assaulted by Epstein when she was fourteen,
and she has a chilling and haunting quote here. I
was I was somewhat divided over whether we should read
it aloud, but here it is. You can't ever stop
(34:53):
your thoughts. A word can trigger something.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
For me.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
It is the word pure, because he called me pure
in that room, and then I remember what he did
to me in that room. Just I don't know gets
to me. And there's Haley Robinson. Virginia Robinson was working
at mar A Lago when she was recruited to be
a massuset to Palm Beach Hedge fund manager Jeffrey Epstein.
(35:16):
There are tons of Jane does. We don't know how
many there are. We know what the Harald found, right
The Harold says they found eighty. They located sixty. They
talked to eight, but only four would go on the
record with their names. And you can understand that too,
because a lot of these people have been quashed by
(35:36):
settlements and non disclosure agreements. A settlement with a NDA
or non disclosure agreement means that if someone if someone
alleges a crime and you want to keep it out
of court, regardless of what it is, you can have
a legal team drop a contract that says, without admitting guilt,
(35:57):
here's X amount of dollars, And in.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
Turn, you can't talk about it.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
You agree to never talk about this. The problem is
that a lot of those things, as we see, don't
really hold up in court if you're asking someone not
to confess a crime, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
Those are victims, those are collaborators or as you said,
no old conspirators. But there are some people fighting the
good fight on this side as well.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
So there were several investigators involved in the case. We
have Joseph for Carey, who was the lead detective for
the case, and in his first interview, he said the
evidence the department collected to support the girl's stories was
overwhelming and included all kinds of stuff, all kinds of
damning evidence. Phone call records, copies of written phone messages
(36:46):
from the girls found in Epstein's trash, and Epstein's flight
logs that showed his private plane in Palm Beach on
the days that girls were scheduled to give massages.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Pretty damning stuff.
Speaker 2 (36:58):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
The police also showed how eerily consistent the girl's stories were,
just down to the tee, right down to their detailed
descriptions of Epstein's genitalia.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
And then there's Michael Writer, who is the former chief
of police in Palm Beach. He was the chief during
this investigation, and he said detectives were astonished by the
sheer volume of victims coming and going from the house,
the frequency, sometimes several in the same day, and the
(37:33):
universally young ages of these girls. Michael Writer says, it
started out to give a man backrup but in many
cases turned us so far worse than that, elevated to
a serious crime in some cases sexual batteries. And then
there's another good I mean, this is almost true detective level,
you know what I mean. Yeah, as far as the
(37:54):
web that is unearthed here, there's the attorney for the victims,
Skinning Brad Edwards. He's representing several of the young women
who were abused as miners by Epstein. His law office
is packed with files from the case, and he's been
fighting the power at every turn, often outnumbered, outgunned, outmanned.
(38:18):
Because you see, that true detective thing is not just
a pop culture reference for us.
Speaker 2 (38:22):
Here.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
There are multiple very powerful people that have been implicated
in one way or another with Epstein, and to be fair,
a lot of it is not proven, other than the
fact that we know they hung out, they maybe took
his playing place as the plane, which was also informally
known as the Lolita Express. That's true, was in formally
(38:47):
known as that. But who are some of these implicated
implicated celebrities.
Speaker 2 (38:51):
Well, let's jump in first with Bill Clinton, because he
was known to have taken the Lolita Express to the
Virgin Islands, to that island that Epstein owns on numerous occasions,
as well as hanging out at the Palm Beach and.
Speaker 1 (39:07):
He went to Africa, Yeah, using that plane. I think
Chris Tucker was on the plane too.
Speaker 2 (39:13):
There's this huge list of celebrities that have been on there,
you know, but Bill Clinton was definitely one of the
ones that popped out in my mind around the time.
This is awful to say, but it was around the
time that Pizzagate was kind of coming out. That's when
I started to really learn about Bill Clinton's involvement with Epstein,
and that connection was one of those things that freaked
(39:35):
me out a little bit and made me start to
think there was more to the whole Pizzagate thing, which
I don't necessarily believe, but it's definitely one of those
things that creeped me out.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
And then Donald Trump has come up several times here
current President Donald Trump, he had this association.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
He made that really creepy quote.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
He made that quotation. He made that quote in two
thousand and two that certainly didn't age well. And there's
one thing we do have to say in Donald Trump's defense.
When Trump was when Trump learned that Epstein may have
been romantically entertaining or attempting to recruit underage girls at
(40:18):
mar A Lago or bringing these young women with him,
these young girls, these children with him and calling them
his nieces, which is so creepy, Donald Trump said, Okay, look,
this can't happen here. You gotta go. So Trump asked
him to leave. Trump kicked him out.
Speaker 2 (40:38):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (40:38):
I guess I feel like that's the bare minimum of decent. No,
it's not. The bare minimum of decency is calling the police.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
Yeah. His his whole thing is just don't do it
where I can also be implicated.
Speaker 1 (40:48):
It's right, you think that was what it was.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
I mean in my opinion, Oh yeah, Oh well, I
don't know.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
I mean, I don't want to throw around implications like that.
Speaker 2 (40:56):
It sure feels like it based on what we know about. Yeah,
the act of kicking someone out or not allowing someone
to do something illegal in your place of business, but
not alerting the authorities that someone is doing something illegal
in your place of business. Now, that's that's that's very damning.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
Yeah, I see what you're saying. Yeah, that makes sense.
And then we mentioned Prince Andrew, the Prince Andrew, the
allegations that Epstein forced his teenage victims to become physically
involved with Prince Andrew on three separate occasions. And the
you know, the UK Press is having a field day
(41:35):
with like tabloids like the Sun or whatever.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, what's blowing up right now?
Speaker 1 (41:39):
Well, a lot of I mean also a lot of
royalty are untouchable.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (41:45):
When When's when is the next time? When's the last
time a royal family member went to jail?
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Prince Charles spent a lot of time in the old Slamma. No,
I'm just kidding any slam.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Little slammery that's what they call it there, right, So okay,
as we said, the alleged abuse is pretty well documented
by numerous sources going back to at least the nineteen nineties.
And if you want to be less than optimistic, then
you can reasonably say that it's possible it went or
(42:24):
went back earlier than that. So how did this go
from rumors scuttle button secrecy to an actual legal matter.
How did the cops get involved? Well we'll get to
that right after a quick break.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
So let's start in March of two thousand and five,
when a woman called the police in Palm Beach, and
after first refusing to give her name, she said that
she believed her fourteen year old stepdaughter had in some
way been molested by a wealthy man, just a wealthy man. So,
at the time, the victim in this case lived at
(43:07):
this involuntary admitted juvenile education facility, which I'm assuming is
some kind of juvi what you would call a juvi
or I guess something to that effect, because she was
having behavioral problems, right, So apparently she shows up at
this school with three hundred dollars cash in her purse,
(43:28):
and it became basically the talk of the class. Everybody's saying,
oh my god, you see that she's got three hundred cash.
Now you get that, dude, that's crazy. And then the
friend called the girl a terrible name, yes we'll say it,
a whore. Another friend put a fist through the wall
in anger, apparently like punched the wall. And then the
(43:49):
girl left school, and then the stepmother gets this call
from another student's mother. So this just this act of
bringing three hundred dollars into this school was enough to
get basically the entire school talking. Then a policewoman was
talking to the girl with a therapist there, so they're
just having a conversation about what's going on. That's when
(44:10):
this victim she begins crying and breaking down, and she
dug her finger into her thigh and she just began
out telling this entire story about how she was. She
was taken to this big house on the Atlantic in
the Intracoastal Waterway, which is where Epstein's mansion was located.
(44:34):
She remembers climbing this spiral staircase to the master bedroom
where this woman, a blonde woman who you know, she's
probably in her twenties, twenty five or something.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Is likely Sarah Kellen.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
It's probably, yes, exactly, probably Sarah Kellen. She wasn't very friendly.
She laid out sheets as she put lotions on a
massage table, and then she leaves. That's when Jeffrey Epstein
comes in. This is the story. Worry this similar story
that we've already talked about. He's naked except for a towel.
He sternly orders the girl to take off her clothes
(45:07):
and then the rest of the details are pretty much
what you've heard before and stuff that I honestly don't
want to say here. But the police at this point
were very much convinced that this was at least worth
looking into.
Speaker 1 (45:22):
And then this girl says that she had been brought
there by two other girls. Please spoke to those two girls.
Those two girls pointed to two more girls who had
also been there and also recruited them. By the time
detectives tracked down one victim, there were two or three
more to find, and very very soon there were dozens.
(45:43):
So also in two thousand and five, the Palm Beach
PD obtains a search warrant and they visit Epstein's mansion.
They cart off massage tables, photos of naked girls, soaps
shaped like Genitalia. Epstein sent an urgent message to the
detectives through his attorney. It said, the shadiest thing.
Speaker 3 (46:04):
Mister Epstein is this is laughable. I'm sorry, this is
just mister Epstein is very passionate about massages. The massages
are therapeutic and spiritually sound for him.
Speaker 2 (46:16):
That is why he has had many massages. I mean, really,
I'm sorry, I'm laughing. It's just come on.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
It's laughable. It's like it's such a bad attempt at
an excuse that it sounds like it was poorly translated
from a different language.
Speaker 2 (46:37):
Yeah. Well, the craziest thing here is that if you're
a wealthy individual and you really are passionate about massages,
it makes sense that you have massage therapy equipment in
your home. You can afford that, even rooms dedicated just
to getting therapeutic massages, and you can also hire a masseuse.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
A professional massuse, which she did have. He paid her
one hundred dollars an hour. There you go, so he
had a professional messuse.
Speaker 2 (47:08):
Yes, there are your massages that you're passionate about, enjoy them.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
So we shall also note that computers and hardware were
missing in the mansion.
Speaker 2 (47:19):
In two thousand and five when the Palm Beach investigators
were to.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Be taken out pretty quickly, so that's two thousand and five.
They're fighting this in court. As as we said earlier,
the head detective on the cases like we have this,
this is five by five, this is buttoned up, this
is game over, you know what I mean. Yeah, But
then quickly what he sees is that there are there's
(47:43):
a network of things, institutions and people stymying the investigation.
And this is where our previous cast member, Acosta makes.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
A return, good old Alex Costa.
Speaker 1 (48:01):
Remember we said he was a state attorney there for Florida.
He started meeting with Epstein's team, who had such legal
luminaries Zalan Derschwitz, Kenneth Starr from the Clinton investigation. Where
these guys are in terms of their legal reputation, these
(48:22):
are very, very influential and prominent lawyers and legal minds.
So Acosta and his team eventually, in two thousand and eight,
they strike a secret deal with Epstein to shield him
from federal investigation and prosecution. The victims were not made
aware of this agreement. It was called a quote non
(48:44):
prosecution deal. Acosta and his team at the time were
in possession of a fifty three page draft indictment charging
Epstein with serial child abuse child molestation. Instead, he took instead, Acosta,
acting on behalf of the US government, keep in mind,
(49:06):
gave Epstein. This this deal in instead of quurte essentially
immunity pretty much and worse than immunity. So Epstein pled
guilty to two state level prostitution charges, so not sex trafficking,
prostitution charges. They essentially made him a john. And what
(49:29):
did he get in exchange for that?
Speaker 3 (49:32):
And man, I mean talk about a sweetheart deal. This
is a lot immunity from all related federal criminal charges,
not only for himself, but also for any quote, any
potential co conspirators, royalty.
Speaker 2 (49:48):
Yeah, yeah, oh my god, the President.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
Anyone who might have been involved in these alleged federal crimes.
This provision would effectively completely shut down any FBI investigation,
any further investigation into the evidence, the overwhelming evidence, the
piles of evidence.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Of international sex trafficking.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Yeah, and essentially make it retroactively legal for anyone to
have conspired with him to rape any of the alleged victims.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
Good god.
Speaker 1 (50:25):
He did get jail time. He got a thirteen month sentence.
He served it in a private wing of the county jail,
and he was there except for the six days a
week when he was on work release. He would he
went to he commuted to his private office for twelve hours,
(50:47):
and his sentence was eighteen months, but he just served thirteen.
There was also we mentioned this earlier, but there was
also this important legal snag. There was a commitment verified
through email chain, that this agreement would be kept secret
from the people identifying as victims, so that they would
(51:09):
not have the opportunity to protest this extraordinary agreement in court.
And that's despite the fact that keeping a plea agreement
secret from victims is a violation of the law and
it should go without saying, this is not the typical
plea deal. For his part, Acosta and his team would
(51:31):
later say, all right, we caved on this agreement, but
we did it because we were being harassed by Epstein's
high powered legal team. They hired private investigators to defame witnesses,
to dive into personal lives. They said they felt physically threatened. However,
(51:52):
emails and documents show the lie here. The relationship between
federal prosecutors in Epstein's was more collaborative than adversarial. They
spent a lot of time figuring out how to settle
the case with the smallest amount of scandal. They even
decided not to charge them with the sex offense, they
(52:15):
considered witness tampering and obstruction charges and misdemeanors, and they
wanted to allow Epstein to secretly plead guilty in Miami
instead of Palm Beach County, where the victims lived, because
that would limit media exposure and it would make it
less likely for the victims to appear at sentencing. And
they also in these emails, again leaked by the Herald,
(52:36):
they also referenced discussions they wanted to have by phone
or in person, so there wasn't a paper trail. And
this agreement, this non prosecution agreement, sealed until after it
was approved by a judge, made it virtually impossible for
anyone to interfere, including Edwards, the attorney. This all came
(52:58):
to public attention with the Miami Herald released a comprehensive, damning,
groundbreaking investigation of Epstein's activities and the Pleat deal and
the corruption and the long term damage to the underage victims.
Yet at this point there's very little indication that that
deal will be thrown out or reneged upon, because he
(53:19):
already fulfilled his part of the agreement. And I guess
we just have to emphasize how extraordinary. It is that
there's a federal agreement that says, not only do you
have to do this, not only are suddenly now calling
abused children prostitutes, which itself is an offensive term, right,
(53:41):
because that's they're trying to be defamatory. Believe the correct
term is sex worker.
Speaker 2 (53:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
So not only are they doing that, but they're also saying,
if any potential co conspirator worked with you, then they're
scott free. Yeah, scott free.
Speaker 3 (53:58):
Just by association, like even if they weren't named, like
they were discovered later.
Speaker 2 (54:03):
Those are the real This is my This is my take.
It's not about Jeffrey Epstein, and it's not about the
billions and billions of dollars that he manages. It's about
the high powered people. In my opinion, this is not proven.
The high powered people that took trips with him on
that Lolita Express, the high powered people they got massages
(54:26):
other than Jeffrey Epstein. That's why he got that deal. No,
I think you're right.
Speaker 3 (54:31):
I mean, because it's just it makes no sense. And
I believe the lawyer that got him that deal is
now a member of Trump's cabinet.
Speaker 1 (54:38):
Yeah, Alex Cossa's Secretary of Labor.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean once you start getting into those circles,
those those power circles, there is just so much insulation
that can happen. Favors owed, you know, from high up
politicians or law enforcement or whatever, and people.
Speaker 2 (54:56):
Call that stuff in it it's real. This is not
tinfoil hat stuff, not imaginary. These people have immunity to
future international sex trafficking. They have immunity to anything that
they would catch them up in that And it's like,
it's ten years since two thousand and eight he spent
(55:18):
his time in prison. Do you guys really think all
of this, any of this has stopped. I mean, the
guy is probably under surveillance of some sort, even though
well would he be, because why would you spend your
money if you're even the FBI or even the CIA
looking at international stuff going on, which I guess I
don't know how that works with the Virgin Islands because
(55:39):
technically aren't they part of the United States?
Speaker 1 (55:42):
The US Virgin Islands.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, okay, yeah, it's just it's so infuriating to think
that this kind of terrible abuse is occurring and is
allowed to occur, and it's simply because have money and
tremendous power.
Speaker 1 (56:02):
So maybe an act of Congress could change it, could
trigger it, you know, maybe just legally speaking. Legally speaking,
it's tough to get this. I mean, the DOJ is
in this. You know. I hesitate so often to accuse
(56:27):
people of operating in large groups and lockstep because, as
we know, groups of people stink at cooperation after a
certain threshold has reached. But while we were working on this,
and while we're looking into it, I honestly started to wonder,
(56:49):
you know, will there be consequences for us for making
this episode interesting? Which I rarely think about. And you know,
I don't think anybody cares what we have to say
about this, but we do want to get this out
in the public sphere because regardless of what actually happened,
even if you want to take this entities side and
(57:14):
say that this was some sort of hit piece or
something like that.
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Yeah, since two thousand and five and before that, sure, since.
Speaker 1 (57:22):
The eighties, something happened, Something happened. There wouldn't be a
deal like that. If there wasn't pernicious, horrific stuff there.
Powerful people needed to be Powerful people are conspiring right
and closing ranks. This is infuriating. This is infuriating. We
(57:47):
want to hear what you think. Thank you for listening.
We want to know what you believe would be the
next step for a legitimate investigation which did not occur
right at least on Uncle Sam's part. We want to
know how far you think this goes. We want to
(58:07):
know who else you think is involved, who are those
unnamed potential co conspirators, And most importantly want you to
know that, as we say in any episode that deals
with the horror of abuse, that if you are if
you have found yourself in that situation, or if you
(58:30):
know someone that is in a situation like that, you
are not alone. You are not powerless. There are people
who are there to help and support you. You can
call one eight hundred sixty five six four six seven three.
That's one eight hundred sixty five six hope and contact
people at the National Sexual Assault Telephone Hotline.
Speaker 2 (58:53):
I don't know what else to say here. That's thank you,
Ben for that. If you want to learn more, literally,
just do some Google searches. The Guardian is a good
place to start. Like we said in New York mag Miami, Harold,
there are a bunch of places where you if you
(59:14):
want to continue to follow this story.
Speaker 3 (59:16):
You can, and I will say that there's some hope
here because we're obviously in a time where powerful men
are getting taken to task more so than we've seen
in the past, certainly, but it still feels like once
you get when you're at a certain level, it's very hard,
you know what I mean, It's very hard to actually
make people answer for their crimes, even if it's all
laid out on the table like this, which is which
(59:37):
is the most gut wrenching part of this story. That
it's like there's no doubt in anyone's mind of this
stuff happened. And like you said, Matt, when you know
back in the circulation, aside from maybe keeping his nose
clean to appease his handlers for a little while, you know,
this is a man that has a mission. He's driven
to behave this way, and the fact that he's allowed
(59:58):
to be out in.
Speaker 2 (01:00:01):
Makes me sick, all right? So what do you think?
Right to us? Find us on social media where conspiracy
stuff in most places, conspiracy stuff show on Instagram, Join
us on Facebook and our group. Here's where it gets crazy.
If you want to get into a discussion about this.
It'll be a difficult one for our mods. Sorry everyone,
(01:00:26):
but let's just you know, let's try and have a
conversation about this that isn't that it doesn't turn into
a flame war because nothing. We don't have to turn
discussions about something as word as this into just being
angry at each other. Let's try and figure out something.
So let's go have a discussion on here's where it
(01:00:47):
gets crazy on Facebook. If you don't want to do that,
and that's the end of this classic episode. If you
have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can
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One of the best is to give us a call.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK.
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(01:01:07):
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Boysober
Have you ever wondered what life might be like if you stopped worrying about being wanted, and focused on understanding what you actually want? That was the question Hope Woodard asked herself after a string of situationships inspired her to take a break from sex and dating. She went "boysober," a personal concept that sparked a global movement among women looking to prioritize themselves over men. Now, Hope is looking to expand the ways we explore our relationship to relationships. Taking a bold, unfiltered look into modern love, romance, and self-discovery, Boysober will dive into messy stories about dating, sex, love, friendship, and breaking generational patterns—all with humor, vulnerability, and a fresh perspective.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com