September 20, 2022 • 50 mins
For centuries communities in France and Spain practiced a brutal, widely-accepted system of discrimination against a group of families and individuals known as Cagots -- but who were these people? Where did they come from, and where are they now? They don’t want you to read our book. They don’t want you to see us on tour.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This classic is a bit of an historical mystery. Today,
fellow conspiracy realist, we're looking at a strange group of
families and individuals, these communities that were in France and
Spain for many, many centuries, but they weren't like the
rest of their neighbors. For one reason or another, lost
(00:23):
the history. They were treated as less than they were,
like the untouchables. They were part of a brutal, widely
accepted system of discrimination. In this classic episode, we try
to figure out why. From ufos to psychic powers and
government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can
(00:46):
turn back now, or learn the stuff they don't want
you to know. H Hello, welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt. We are joined in spirit by
(01:06):
our super producer, Noel, the Madman Brown, who will be
returning his UH absence. Will if we make the heart
grow fonder? Right, certainly it will for me, and they
called me Ben. You are you, and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know again here, closer
(01:28):
and closer to the end, seen reminds me of that
yates poem. Matt, what rough beasts our come at last,
slouches towards Bethlehem. I do remember the second coming, I
believe it's called. Yeah, I am certainly ready for to
be over, though I do dread a bit of what
(01:49):
the next May bring. What will happen in yeah, that's
the that's the matter of perspective, right. The most frightening
thing that people can think about when you look at
the future and turns of events is, uh, what if
people look back on this is the good old days? Oh,
(02:13):
I was gonna say they will definitely. Well, the world
is big. It depends on where you live, right, and even,
perhaps more importantly, what your position and a given society
has been, and that's something we're exploring today. Much of
human history has been a study in unequal rights, either
(02:35):
by this constant conflict right, either by groups striving for
better representation or other groups fighting to maintain a system
of oppression that benefits them. You know, I'm not a
big believer in hierarchies. I think they're garbage. I think
there for the birds, not even the cool birds, like
the crappy birds, like seagulls. Right, I haven't seen many
(02:58):
crow hierarchy these maybe there are some, there are, there
are I'm sure there are Um, but you're absolutely right.
I I don't like these things, hierarchies in general, and
I understand why they're necessary for some some people, but, uh,
philosophically and historically, they're used to oppress the many for
(03:20):
the benefit of the few. That is what happens with hierarchies,
whether you're talking about the tribal system in the UK,
which continues to exist, of course, I guess people feel
better about it when we called an aristocracy, or whether
you're talking about continued cultural repression in other countries. Uh,
(03:42):
it all boils down to the same thing and it's
a source of, uh, massive conflict. In these conflicts have occurred,
the cycle of conflict rather, has occurred multiple times. In
the US, for example, we have these struggle for civil rights.
That was again a group of people who were benefiting
from a system of oppression versus a group of people
(04:05):
who were Uh, who are losing out because that same
system and the reasoning behind these uh, these oppressive systems
are based on so many different things. There's so many
different reasons. I know it sounds like I just picked
on the United Kingdom and I just picked on the
United States, but these are just two examples. Like there
(04:26):
are multiple kinds of oppression. Yeah, you can go to
gender discrimination, where you're looking at male and female and
one is treated differently. Over the course of history it's
largely fallen on the females who have been oppressed in
this way. But let's not forget women in the United
States could not vote, couldn't vote for president, couldn't vote
(04:47):
for anything, just a few decades ago. It hasn't been
that long. Yeah, right, and as we record this, uh,
this country and many other countries in the West are
in the grips of a new kind of gender discrimination
with people who are Trans Right. So the the idea
(05:08):
that Um, a person who identifies as female but was
biologically identify as a male at the time of their birth,
is that that's becoming a huge legal issue here in
the US. And then there are other things too. Right,
there's the untouchable cast of India, and these folks have
(05:33):
have endured horrific discrimination and the government, of course, has
taken steps to try to mitigate this situation. But the
cast system of India is not something that's going to
be swept away by a convenient law. You know what
(05:56):
I mean? It's it's too deep set. Then you have
various systems of slavery, everything from Chattel Slavery, like in
the United States, for example, back in the day, wage slavery,
Bondage Labor, Mandatory minimums and uh, and prison labor. I
(06:17):
mean it's a version of it. It's not outright slavery,
but wage slavery. Yeah, that might have to be its
own episode. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that. We
should definitely have Nolan for that one. Does anybody want
to write to us and and let us know your
opinion of wage slavery? Actually, this is a sidebar. This
(06:37):
is a sidebar. Could I ask what your first job was?
My first job was working pool side as a server
at the Piedmont Driving Club Nancy, and then I got
an internship here. So I've got I had to oh, man, okay, uh,
(06:57):
without going too deep into my past, usually say that
sort of stuff. My first legal job was at a
at at a grocery store, and I tried, eventually, I tried, Matt,
to get fired. I did numerous things. They just wouldn't
fire me because the other people at the grocery store
(07:20):
were that bad, and so eventually I just stopped going. Man,
you weren't worried about the stigma of being fired from
one job. No, I went ahead and told them that
I was just going to stop showing up because I'm
getting another job, and I got a different job and
then just stopped going. That was the only way because
(07:42):
I had said I'll quit before and they would call
with a with a follow up thing, but it was
just very strange. This is surreal situation. You know, I
feel like you're opening up more than I've heard you
open up in a while. So I want to keep going,
but I know we have to continue. I'm setting it
up because, okay, let's you were a servant, I was
(08:03):
a grocer. Those are types of occupations, right. I mean
I was still a servant, so aren't we all? Well,
most of us. There's also ethnic or so called racial discrimination.
Is when you hear about minorities being being persecuted or
when you hear about groups that maybe to an outsider,
(08:25):
seem pretty much identical, sure, right, when you hear about
these groups having bitter, bitter rivalries. One famous situation in Europe,
of course, is the Roma, who have met numerous types
(08:46):
of prejudice and discrimination and stereotyping and have in many
cases never fully assimilated into the local culture of wherever
they are. Yeah, I was gonna say it's a lot
of that has to do with culture, old differences and
clashing with whichever power is seen as the norm or
(09:06):
whichever group is seen as the norm in an area.
And then there's cultural discrimination. Right. One big example of
this would be World War Two era Japan's nationalistic superiority
complex over China and, uh, the puppet state of Banchuria
that they built. They did unspeakable things. UH, they did
(09:31):
it because they thought the other people weren't, like, really human. Yeah,
that's a common theme, that's a common thing. And then
there's religious discrimination to right. Yes, and for examples of
this you can look to Catholic persecution of Jewish people's Protestants,
native peoples and colonized countries, and you can also see
this in the various forms of discrimination practice between Islamic
(09:55):
and Jewish cultures. Yeah, yeah. There's another aspect to us, however,
and this is the strangest thing, ladies and gentlemen, in
some cases societies have no concrete reasoning behind a discriminatory practice, none. Yeah,
I wanted to say that I feel that a lot
of times there's not that much of a concrete basis
(10:17):
for a lot of these discriminatory practices, but these in
particular that were about to look at just feels like why? So? Yeah,
for instance, the Bruckmann of Japan were historically treated in
a manner very similar to the Dale or untouchables in India,
(10:37):
despite the fact that they are not just not just
visually identical but genetically identical to mainstream Japanese population, and
they are practicing Buddhists and they are not in almost
any other way distinguishable from the rest of Japan. We're
talking about discrimination based on name or neighborhood. But today,
(10:57):
Ladies and Gentlemen, yes, there is a point to our
prief exploration. Today we're looking at another, perhaps lesser known
example of a similarly mysterious case of persecution. It's a
group of people known as the CAGO, also capo ago
gahette or, which stands for Christian right. So who are
(11:22):
these people? What's going on? Why have most of the
world's population never ever heard of them? We will tell
you after a brief word from our sponsor. Welcome back.
(11:46):
So we're looking at this group called the could go now,
historical records have proven that for centuries, communities in western
France and northern Spain practiced brutal, systematic discrimination against this
group of people. There there was a system that was
well established and it was oddly uniform throughout much of France.
(12:09):
All right, because this is unusual because at this time
people weren't communicating as easily as people communicate today, which
means that there's a lot of drift or creep in
local customs. And this was also one of the reasons
why Haresy was such a big concern for the Catholic Church.
(12:29):
Let's say there's a church as Gunna, isolated, it's out
in the Alps or something. Nobody's seen these people for Fifteen,
twenty years there getting some weird ideas and changing stuff around,
doing some weird things. Right, so this happened. This happened
constantly and the that is one of the reasons why
(12:50):
the persecution of the persecution of Cago in France and
in that area of Spain is fascinating. Now, of course
it evolves over time, but it seemed to have a
very oddly specific system to, you know, to this persecution
(13:15):
and they could go were Catholic they were. They were
just as Catholic as their neighbors who were not. Could go,
but they were only reluctantly loud into the auspices of
the church. Let's talk about some of the community rules
applying to these people. Uh, they could not take communion
the same way as, I guess, the more legitimate people
(13:37):
of their community. They had to enter and sit in
separate parts of the church, and they were also buried
in separate graveyards. And when it came to the church,
there are several instances of churches that had entrances just
in the back, you know, smaller doors that appear to
be that's what they were for. Some of them have
(13:57):
signs that even have the word could go or one
of these other names referred to them as it. But
there were also a few that had strange entrances where
you had to climb up a ladder in order to
get into another ladder system inside the church. Fascinating the
lengths that some of these churches went to to separate
this group of people from the rest of their flock
(14:20):
because they were seen somehow as tainted dirty. Yeah, they
were also not allowed to walk barefoot, which gave rise
to rumors that their feet were webbed and in some
places they were required to wear a badge that was
occasionally in the shape of a goose's foot. Yeah, and
it was red. Yeah, just a red badge that you
had to wear. Red Footed it was going to say again.
(14:43):
Sounds familiar to historical references. It's hurt here. Um. Oh,
and also, they were only allowed to make purchases in
town on Mondays. This is according to an eighteen account. Yeah,
so this already sounds weird, but it goes on. They
(15:04):
were restricted to certain trades, particularly carpentry. Uh. This led
to situations in which, uh, Caldgo may end up building
the very same church that's going to persecute them and
their family later. Talk about a head trip. Huh, a
little bit, and we're by the way, one of the
(15:25):
great resources we got for this was from an author
named Daniel Hawkins, who wrote paper called cameras that degrade humanity,
like Cago and discrimination. So we uh, we found some
other things here. I want to read a small selection
from this paper. Restrictive legislation concerning could go appeared many
(15:50):
times after twelve eighty eight, which is when we see
more detailed municipal records. While details differed, prohibitions typically expressed
some other concerns. They required that could go were segregated
in their living quarters, occupations and day to day interactions.
They were forbidden from marrying. Non could go. They could
not enter Taverns, hold cabarets, use public fountains, sell food
(16:13):
or wine, touch food in the market, work with livestock
or enter a mill. They were not allowed to carry
arms other than professional tools, and this goes to the
example we talked about earlier. There was severe and brutal
punishment for transgressors. So if we go back with our
time traveling hypothetical French Matt Frederick, which, by the way,
(16:36):
I'm liking this character. I see him in a beret,
but I don't know if that's historically accurate. I don't
think so, but let's go with it. What about it?
What about it? CASSIC? Yes, cast all right. So if
we go back to that time, where where our Oh, Matt,
what's your French name? Pierre? Yeah, okay, Alright, Pierre Frederick.
(17:03):
When Pierre Frederick is walking by, he may and sees
that hand being nailed to the door. He may well
have not said a word if it was familiar with
the discrimination against could go, because we know what's happened
several times. One could go. Merchant was punished for touching
the main baptismal fought by having his hands severed from
(17:26):
his arm and nailed to a door. I don't think
it was the door of the church, but that would
be that seems like that would be a bad idea.
Nail a severed arm to the place where everybody can enter,
just the hand to hand. Sure. Uh. There was another
account of a man who allegedly h grew food on
(17:47):
his land and farmed it and he had metal spikes
pushed through his feet as punishment. That's that's very it's
very odd, you know, and it's it's disturbing get when
you consider that these people, although you might have heard
them described as swarthy at some point. Uh, I also
(18:09):
read something where they were described as being fair skinned. Yeah,
there are widely different accounts of how what a Cago
looks like. Right. Rumors about them were wide ranging, rampant stuff.
We can just go down the list, right. Oh sure. Yeah,
they were viewed as heretics, like we said, despite their
(18:29):
regular attendants to church, despite being Catholics, they were viewed
as not being Catholic. Yes, they were accused of being lepers,
which will get into. Uh, there was there were rumors
about them holding secret meetings for nefarious, unknown purposes. Yeah, again,
we see this throughout history. Like, what are they meeting
(18:49):
in secret about? Are they actually meeting in secret, Dude,
or are you? Are you just a little paranoid? Anyway,
they're probably saying, hey, does everybody have their hands? Yeah,
how what are strategies we can use to not be
as persecuted? Yeah, we're pro hand h yeah, they're also
accused of being descendants of Ghaazi. I don't know if
(19:11):
I'm saying that correctly, but this was the wicked servant
of the Prophet Elisha, and, you know, being the children
of this person, it was believed that they were all
cursed with the curse that was placed on Ghazzi. That's
that's similar to the old, latter day saint policy of
discrimination against against darker skinned people, right. Uh. Yeah, Ghazzi
(19:36):
is a figure found in the book of Kings. He
was in a position of power, but he was corrupt.
Uh rugard kipling wrote a poem about him, but I
can't remember exactly what it was. Uh Yeah, so this something.
This was something that was common in this era of Christianity,
(20:02):
which was to find a biblical basis, however tenuous, to
rationalize mistreatment of an individual. So it's a long book.
You read closely enough and think creatively enough, you're bound
to find something, and I want to note here. So
(20:26):
his big sin was avaraice, right, he was stealing stuff,
he was racking up change in his master's names, tricking people. Yeah, yeah,
and uh, he was guilty of duplicity and dishonesty. So Elisha,
the Prophet denounced him and passed upon him the terrible doom,
(20:46):
and this is a quote from kings, that leprosy of
namin would cleave to him and his descendants forever. Yep,
so that's where you pull some you know someone in
the church believing that to be true and hey, here's
someone I can apply that too. But but this curse
came with at least some allegations of dark powers, isn't
(21:08):
that right? Yeah, there are. There are allegations that they
were sorcerers. It was believed that they could be witch cattle,
which sounds a little more fun than it probably should
to me. It sounds like the you know, of course,
these are largely agricultural communities, but right now it sounds
like one of the most useless superpowers ever. Whether you're
(21:31):
whether you're a villain or a hero, you're pretty much restricted.
You have to live around livestock for it to even matter. Yeah,
the cattle witcher is not going to be a threat
in New York City. Gosh, that's a great character, though.
The cattle which the cattle witcher on the next episode
(21:51):
of the cattle witcher. Yes, it was also believed that
perhaps they had the power of the evil eye, where
if they stared at your child long enough, or anyone really,
they can cause terrible things to happen to them. They
get curse with a glance. Yeah, uh, and this this
ties into some of the more wide ranging accusations of
(22:15):
paranormal ability that occur with this sort of persecution. You'll
also hear stuff about being able to poison wells or
being able to you know, when they're talking about bewitching cattle,
they're talking about the cattle falling ill or perhaps miscarrying
during birth and stuff like that. Well, yeah, that's why
(22:35):
they weren't allowed to touch food. It was it was
believed that any food that they touched, no matter at
what stage. Is why you can't farm. It will rot immediately,
will be soiled immediately. You cannot eat or, you know,
do anything with edible objects that are touched by these
could go. That's the belief cattle witchers. I'm stuck on
(22:58):
it out cattle witchers. Uh Yeah, so you also find
that in the real estate, right? You find evidence of
this belief in the real estate. Oh yeah, with these powers.
That's why a lot of times you would see there
their residences, the areas where they lived had to be
separated by somebody of water, a stream of water, just
(23:18):
enough to where those mystical powers can't carry over because
their beliefs about how magic operates. Today you're not going
to hear much about the COULDGO fit. Families that discover
this heritage in the modern day often will hide it
in fear of continuing low level discrimination against their spouses
(23:40):
or their children. So very, very, very, very very few
come forward in the modern day. And the population itself
was always relatively small in comparison to, you know, the
rest of France and Spain. Uh, now it seems set
to fade into nothingness, but there's still so many unanswered questions, Matt.
(24:02):
Who are these people? Why did they become the repressed
class and maybe most importantly, where did they come from?
These are all questions we're going to look at right
after a word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy.
(24:30):
No one really knows. No one knows for certain where
they could go originate. Yeah, but there's some theories. There
are many, many, many, many, many theories, but they are
of a varying plausibility and they are all somewhat fascinating.
I would say. For instance, were they the descendants of
(24:51):
Moorish soldiers who, for instance, during the Muslim conquest of
Spain or areas of Spain, uh simply migrated up at
out in de France? It's a possibility. Did they begin
as a guild of skilled medieval woodworkers, with their persecution
(25:13):
rising as a form of commercial rivalry that eventually got
solidified into tradition? So people didn't know why these dudes
were dirty, but they knew that their parents thought that.
What if they were Moorish Medieval woodworkers? And so this. Yeah,
this ties back into the question that I earlier asked You, Matt,
(25:34):
about your first occupation because the strange thing is that
if we lived in a different society or we lived
in a even a different time period, we would overwhelmingly
be likely to continue the work that our parents did,
(25:55):
as even a guild or caste or something. So because
we would be apprentices, hopefully, if we were lucky, talented.
So if your father is a cobbler, you're a cobbler.
If your father is uh yeah, then you're an accountant.
If your father is a military officer, you follow the
(26:16):
same thing. If your father is a cattle witcher, Um,
then you are also. I'm sorry, you're also a cattle witcher.
I was gonna let it go. I wouldna let it go.
I'm not in any way condoning the bewitchment of livestock,
of cattle. They've got it tough enough. However, I am
which all the cattle that you possibly can and then
(26:39):
tell me how you did it. Right to US conspiracy
and how stuff works, DOT com. Okay, all right, yes, yes, please,
let not know the source of your dark movine related powers.
So the thing that we see here that's strange is
that when people had less social mobility, when your parents
(27:04):
or your grandparents occupations would largely determine your own occupation.
We also see a society where certain occupations are considered
more valuable than others, or maybe a better way to
say it as certain occupations are seen as much less valuable.
For instance, executioners had some of the same laws against
(27:29):
their behavior as did could go in, and this was
in Germany. Perhaps. An executioner can't go to the bar,
can't touch food or drink around people, because the executioner,
like his father before him, makes a living by killing
people and that's seen, as you know, morally reprehensible but
(27:53):
necessary for society. And we see this in some other cultures,
for instance working with hides or disposing of human waste,
like the untouchables, right, that would be that would be
a lower cast job. So and a lot of it
seems to arise from almost it's a it's a combination
(28:16):
of lack of scientific understanding of how some of it works,
a lack of technology for cleaning, like and being able
to cleanse oneself after working a job such as killing
people or, you know, taking the hides off of animals.
You know this perception of unclean. I mean it's rife
(28:37):
with disease and for germ theory, and it's true that
it is like it actually is, so that not having
the technology also creates that system where somebody in the
historical record experienced, you know, drinking with the executioner who
happened to kill somebody who had a terrible disease, and boom,
next thing you know, yeah, I mean, well, no, but
(29:01):
I can. I mean, that's just how it happened. It's
just the only way that it happens, right, and it's
something that people accept. And also, of course, I'm just
saying Couru because I like the word. The only way
that somebody can get Kuru is by consuming uh, brains, brains, yeah,
which will give you those prions, Um, which are bad news. Uh.
(29:24):
Speaking of bad news, Matty, I just realized something. If
your Avatar in the Middle Ages, there in the Pierre
in the thirtreds, right, uh, if if he's wearing a Cassock,
it makes your situation even worse because you're probably the
(29:46):
priest or, a priest. Okay, people have a lot to
get ready for. There's a mass later. Yeah, yeah, you
don't want him to get your own. You maybe even
want to help the guy, but you're like, I'm not
getting that filthy CAGO blood on my Cassock to use
my shoe to open the door. Just shoot, opened the
(30:08):
door quick, everyone, check the cattle. Uh. So there's this
other idea that they were descendants of earlier, uh cultural
groups and that this somehow made them not worthy of
trust or made them tainted, made them somehow other, made
(30:32):
them threatening to a degree. And one would be that
that they were descendants of the goths. The could go
first appear in records as early as the tenth century,
but they became more prominent from the century on and
they were in both sides of the Western Pyrenees. Uh.
They lived in these small, poor, segregated communities on the
(30:55):
periphery of these villages and towns. So they've been around
for so long that it's easily, easily understandable that someone
would rationalize persecuting them by saying, well, you know, you
remember those other guys from centuries ago? Yeah, it's them,
(31:17):
don't trust them. And there are a couple other theories
about groups that came through France and Spain as conquerors
at one point or another, like the Saracens. Like there
again remnants who perhaps have um switched over to Catholicism
and now they continue to live in the area, their
families do, and you know they're bad news just because
(31:39):
of that. Again, these are all possibilities. And maybe then
it's a range of these, like it's a combination of
all of these things, of just people that look other. Yeah, yeah,
possibly like the we'll get to the the conspiratorial angle
of this. But they're more than you might think because
(32:01):
obviously we're looking at a mainstream community that conspired to
repress a very small minority, uh, which is odd because
I think in the sixteen hundreds the could go, or
maybe two percent of the population. So never, never, in
large numbers. Um, although I did really remember some some
(32:23):
other stuff I wanted to mention. I don't know if
you found this in your research. Some more specificity about
could go. So, like you and I said, they were
described as fair skinned by some, as Swarthy by others,
dark skinned, dark skinned, lights in the ear lobes. That's
the thing. That's why I wanted to mention they supposedly
(32:43):
lacked ear lobes and were Miss Magicians, sorcerers, had an infectious,
terrible odor. They're always accused of smelling bad and they
gave off great heat. Here's a quote. When the south
wind blew their lips, jugular glands and the duck foot
mark under their left armpit all swelled. What. Yeah, so, uh,
(33:08):
they okay. So they are considered to be smelly, to
have these strange physical ailments, and that goes to one
of their biggest rational one of the biggest rationalizations for
persecuting these people, which was that they are lepers and Cretans.
(33:33):
So I'm familiar with lepers. That would be, uh, several.
I know that encompasses several different diseases of the time,
but a lot of it has to do with infectious
disease that could be transmitted easily if interacting with this person. Right,
and that would make sense. UH, make sure these people
(33:54):
aren't interacting with the everyday public as to not kill
everyone in the village. Right. I mean that that makes sense. Yeah. So,
one of the prevailing beliefs among historians about the could
Goo is that leprosy was the essence of this phenomenon.
People used to think that leprosy was inherited right, was
(34:19):
a poison of the generations and the blood h however,
even after people knew that leprosy was not a purely
inherited trait, you know, that could communicate between unrelated people. Uh.
Some authors considered the could go to be a special
case of hereditary lepers, uh, that the disease was just
(34:44):
kind of concentrated in them. However, another writer said that
maybe what happens, maybe the birth of the could go,
when the records were appearing in the tenth centuries, started
when people who were already infected h something and considered lepers,
banded together on the periphery of a town solidarity and
(35:06):
to yeah, to make their own make their own village,
and that later, you know, their descendants were affected by
the stigma of the disease, even though they didn't carry it.
They just came from that crappy home situation. So the
(35:28):
weird thing is, though, that aside from, you know, these
vestigial traits and these vestigial rules of, you know, don't
touch stuff with your hands, don't go through the same door,
et Cetera. Uh, people seem to interact, they seemed to
exist in the community. You know, if they were doing woodworking,
(35:51):
you would still take a table from the person. Somehow, somehow,
the wood was fine, somehow the wood was fine, yeah, all.
So we know that groups of could go were proven
not to have leprosy in six after decades of dispute,
people complained of discrimination, could go complain this discrimination to
(36:14):
parliament and they gave them a thorough medical examination. They
examined twenty two people, all carpenters or joiners, and they
exams at this time. We're not we're not the turn
your head and cough inconveniences of the modern age. These
people had their bodies palpated, their arms were bled. Uh.
(36:38):
They applied heated cups to them to check their circulation
and the doctors came back with the results and they said, well,
these are just the ordinary people. Uh there, fine, they're
in the quotas, there in all health in their body,
exempt from all contagious maladies and without any disposition to
(36:59):
those maladies. Were quiring them to be separated from the
company of other healthy people. So they blew it out
of the the water. Yeah, they didn't find any, quote, peculiar diseases,
but leprosy at the time was not considered purely a
specific physical ailment. In earlier years it was more of
a umbrella or catch all description for possibly a spiritual
(37:22):
things your your body could be fine, but you might
be morally or spiritually lepross. That's why they could go.
We're also occasionally called white lepers, which is just a
very UN appealing name that. Well, could it simply be
that they were discriminated against because they were poor? We
(37:43):
know that the state of the poor in France and
Spain at the time was the social position was very,
very different. It was considered an affront to have to
see the poor. Yeah, but then there are accounts, at
least from that reference that I gave, where the poor people,
(38:04):
the peasants, are the ones who are prosecuting. They're the
most opposed. So that's the chicken and egg thing. was
their poverty results of this discrimination, or was the discrimination
result of the poverty? I tend to think the former,
(38:24):
but you're right, and we see this in modern societies
today too. If you want people to be satisfied with
their position in an unfair hierarchy, all you have to
do is put at least one more wrong on the
ladder below them. Give them someone to look down on
and they will stop looking up to wonder what's happening
(38:48):
at the top. That is unfortunate and too true. Too True. Uh,
it seems that later the rise of racially based accusations
like Oh, these swore the moorish soldiers or whatever, that
they came about after the decline of leprosy, after the
(39:09):
climb physical threat from disease, meaning that the racism happened
afterwards to rationalize the pre existing prejudice. You know, that's
so crazy. Yeah, it's so disturbing. If it's not one thing,
it's another. Well, what I've found? What I found is
(39:31):
that the way a lot of these with these rumors
that we discussed earlier and all these things that that
could go or purportedly to be able to do and
smell like and all these things, a lot of it
was handed down through songs that were the they called
them party songs that would be spread in probably a
(39:51):
tavern where it's the again, the peasants all drinking together,
and this makes so much sense to me now, been
drinking too together, singing about the rung of the ladder
that's below them, uh, to make themselves feel better. I
can totally see that now, as Pierre in the tavern. UH, wow, this,
(40:12):
that is really disturbing. Yeah, AH, no, kidding. And here's
here's another thing. Next question. Right, we were probably never
going to have an answer about where, where this group
of people came from, where they actually came from and
why they were originally persecuted. We just have those best
(40:33):
guesses and sadly we are probably not going to find out,
because I know there's so many people in the audience
now who are probably yelling at the speaker. DNA, you guys,
just do the DNA tests. Fantastic point. If there were
someone to do a DNA test on. You can read.
(40:57):
Probably the most recent thing you can read about this
disappearing group of people is an article in the independent
from about two thousand and eight where one one woman
from the French Pyrenees, Marie Pierre Uh MINET Bezet, as
(41:17):
talking about her ancestry. At the time she was a
forty something mother of three and she was being billed
as the last living Cago, or at least the last
the last one who will admit to being CAGO. And
they say it's a bad thing. She said, it's still
a bad thing in the mountains in two eight uh
(41:39):
the French are ashamed of what they did. They could go.
Are Ashamed of what they were and no one will
confess that there could go descent. So this means that, ah,
this means that this entire concept, whatever was based on,
is disappearing, because now the conspiracy has shifted. It went
(42:03):
from mainstream French communities conspiring to essentially make life Hell
and keep these people at the bottom of the social
barrel to a conspiracy by those people's descendants, by the
could go descendants, to escape and erase their past, just
like that guy in Gadaga played by Ethan Hawk. Great movie.
(42:24):
Thank you, they thank you. Thank you. To go back
to to go back to Um revie Pierre really fast.
At the very end of that article, she they're asking
about her children, because she has several children, and the
big thing she says, and she's like, no, I can't
(42:45):
show you pictures of my children because of the stigma
it remains so much in this area today. You can't,
you can't even know my children. Look at just in case.
And she also says that could go. She's one of
the people who says that could go, or described as
swarthy are as, darker skin, postiferous. Yes, they called the
(43:06):
postiferous people, which has an unfortunate ring to it, and
with this we with this we end our narrative of
the could go this the shifting social conspiracy, first of
a group, of a mainstream group too, essentially enslave, socially
(43:29):
bind a group, and then that group's collective effort to
end itself, very successful effort to do so. But these
are not the only vanishing people in the world. We
know that there are several other examples right the Aromanians
and the Russians, who are both mentioned in the article
(43:53):
in the Independent. Uh. The aromanians the day back to
Roman colonization. They're spread across the southern Balkans, but they're
believed to be almost extinct. or their cultural identity and
evidence of their culture lives on with some Grecian festivals.
(44:16):
And then the Russians are they're around one point two
million expected to or estimated to live in Europe. Over
half of them or in the Ukraine. They're not recognized
by the Ukraine because of the Communist regime of the
fifties and that's the time their church was also eradicated.
But but they're responsible for a lot of those beautiful
(44:38):
wooden churches that you can see in the area. One
of the points here is that our species doesn't, you know,
just lose memories, doesn't just lose cities, which we've covered,
doesn't just lose civilizations, it also loses entire cultures, entire
(44:59):
groups of people who who are alike by blood, who
are also alike by language and by custom. You know,
then one of the other things we lose our entire
animal species. I know that's another podcast, but yeah, that's
another podcast to uh. And it's true, unfortunately, but it
(45:20):
is also true that now, in the modern age, we
have the ability to preserve some of this stuff and
we have the ability, thanks to the rise of easily
affordable recording technology, two preserve some piece of the past,
some knowledge, some essence of the days and the people
(45:45):
that came before. And that's why I would suggest, this
is just my opinion, but would suggest to all of
you out there listening to this, whether in Twenties Sixteen
or twenty one, Oh six, don't as a take too.
If you have older family members or if you have
someone older in your community and you think that that
(46:06):
community is not long for this world, because it happens
every civilization rises and falls, you can easily take a
second to just interview them and record their answers and
it's something that you will like and and your kids
will like and on and on, on and on, and
nobody has to be a cattle witcher. So, with that
(46:28):
being said, before we head out today, it's time for
ours shut at corners. We have a single shout out
to give today. It is from redacted. That's what I'm
gonna call that, uh, and here it goes. I'm a
(46:48):
military psychiatrist currently in residency training. So when you ask
for stories from people who use mind altering drugs in
the military, well, it's kind of my thing. Regarding drugs
in general, all active duty personnel get randomly drug tested
frequently and unless you have very good medical reason to
be on a drug, you're likely going to be dishonorably discharged. Yeah,
(47:08):
we're going to continue reading. Just some excerpts from redacted's email, uh,
which is fantastic, by the way. He says, or she says,
regarding uppers. Yes, some are still used, but to a
substantially lesser degree than you might suspect. Uh. Provigil, which
is the brand name for modafinil, is a non emphetamine
(47:32):
stimulant vastly preferred over amphetamine derivatives. We still don't know
exactly how it works, but it seems to simulate Alpha
brain wave activity while decreasing delta and data waves, effectively
simulating wakefulness. Regarding amphetamines, while a D H D is
still probably underdiagnosed, chances are if you've made it through
(47:54):
basic training you don't need a D H D meads. Personally,
I hate them. I've seen several sailors and marines get
kicked out of the service after getting caught using them
to try and boost their performance. I've also seen several
service members get tipped over into a frank psychosis that
appears to have been triggered by amphetamine overdoses. It's scary,
it's dangerous and I keep my sailors as far away
(48:16):
from the stuff as possible. And about battlefield medications. All
sorts of really crazy stuff goes down a firefight. Sometimes
you cannot afford to lose a riflemen, no matter what
the cause. We have combinations of common medicines that can
keep a trigger puller in the fight for longer than
nature would allow, but it's last ditch kind of move
and deeply frowned upon by almost all medical professionals. That
(48:40):
is fascinating that that one in particular. He talks about
new tropics, which may be something that you heard from
the Joe Rogan podcast or somewhere else. That's how I
heard about them, and the person writting this email says
I have personally cared for patients that have had substantially
catastrophic reactions from trying to get a quote, Bradley Cooper
in limit US unquote state, and these people have crashed
(49:03):
and burned on the way there. I strongly advise the
patients avoid this type of supplicant, Supplement or medication. So
finishes up talking about withdrawal. said, in the vast majority
of cases morphine withdrawal cannot kill you. They say it's awful,
it's painful, squatesque, but unlikely to be life threatening. Nowhere.
Nearest dangerous is opiate overdose, and so it says. Hope
(49:25):
that helps. If you have any other questions about medicine, psychiatry,
the military, particularly military medicine, I'd be happy to share
what I can. Thanks so much for writing in redacted.
We are and that's the end of this classic episode.
If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,
you can get into contact with us in a number
of different ways. One of the best is to give
(49:47):
us a call. Our number is one eight three three
STD W Y T K. If you don't want to
do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.
We are conspiracy at I heart radio DOT COM. Stuff
they don't want you to know is a production of
I heart radio. For more podcasts for my heart radio,
visit the I heart radio APP, apple podcasts or wherever
(50:08):
you listen to your favorite shows.
This classic is a bit of an historical mystery. Today,
fellow conspiracy realist, we're looking at a strange group of
families and individuals, these communities that were in France and
Spain for many, many centuries, but they weren't like the
rest of their neighbors. For one reason or another, lost
(00:23):
the history. They were treated as less than they were,
like the untouchables. They were part of a brutal, widely
accepted system of discrimination. In this classic episode, we try
to figure out why. From ufos to psychic powers and
government conspiracies, history is riddled with unexplained events. You can
(00:46):
turn back now, or learn the stuff they don't want
you to know. H Hello, welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt. We are joined in spirit by
(01:06):
our super producer, Noel, the Madman Brown, who will be
returning his UH absence. Will if we make the heart
grow fonder? Right, certainly it will for me, and they
called me Ben. You are you, and that makes this
stuff they don't want you to know again here, closer
(01:28):
and closer to the end, seen reminds me of that
yates poem. Matt, what rough beasts our come at last,
slouches towards Bethlehem. I do remember the second coming, I
believe it's called. Yeah, I am certainly ready for to
be over, though I do dread a bit of what
(01:49):
the next May bring. What will happen in yeah, that's
the that's the matter of perspective, right. The most frightening
thing that people can think about when you look at
the future and turns of events is, uh, what if
people look back on this is the good old days? Oh,
(02:13):
I was gonna say they will definitely. Well, the world
is big. It depends on where you live, right, and even,
perhaps more importantly, what your position and a given society
has been, and that's something we're exploring today. Much of
human history has been a study in unequal rights, either
(02:35):
by this constant conflict right, either by groups striving for
better representation or other groups fighting to maintain a system
of oppression that benefits them. You know, I'm not a
big believer in hierarchies. I think they're garbage. I think
there for the birds, not even the cool birds, like
the crappy birds, like seagulls. Right, I haven't seen many
(02:58):
crow hierarchy these maybe there are some, there are, there
are I'm sure there are Um, but you're absolutely right.
I I don't like these things, hierarchies in general, and
I understand why they're necessary for some some people, but, uh,
philosophically and historically, they're used to oppress the many for
(03:20):
the benefit of the few. That is what happens with hierarchies,
whether you're talking about the tribal system in the UK,
which continues to exist, of course, I guess people feel
better about it when we called an aristocracy, or whether
you're talking about continued cultural repression in other countries. Uh,
(03:42):
it all boils down to the same thing and it's
a source of, uh, massive conflict. In these conflicts have occurred,
the cycle of conflict rather, has occurred multiple times. In
the US, for example, we have these struggle for civil rights.
That was again a group of people who were benefiting
from a system of oppression versus a group of people
(04:05):
who were Uh, who are losing out because that same
system and the reasoning behind these uh, these oppressive systems
are based on so many different things. There's so many
different reasons. I know it sounds like I just picked
on the United Kingdom and I just picked on the
United States, but these are just two examples. Like there
(04:26):
are multiple kinds of oppression. Yeah, you can go to
gender discrimination, where you're looking at male and female and
one is treated differently. Over the course of history it's
largely fallen on the females who have been oppressed in
this way. But let's not forget women in the United
States could not vote, couldn't vote for president, couldn't vote
(04:47):
for anything, just a few decades ago. It hasn't been
that long. Yeah, right, and as we record this, uh,
this country and many other countries in the West are
in the grips of a new kind of gender discrimination
with people who are Trans Right. So the the idea
(05:08):
that Um, a person who identifies as female but was
biologically identify as a male at the time of their birth,
is that that's becoming a huge legal issue here in
the US. And then there are other things too. Right,
there's the untouchable cast of India, and these folks have
(05:33):
have endured horrific discrimination and the government, of course, has
taken steps to try to mitigate this situation. But the
cast system of India is not something that's going to
be swept away by a convenient law. You know what
(05:56):
I mean? It's it's too deep set. Then you have
various systems of slavery, everything from Chattel Slavery, like in
the United States, for example, back in the day, wage slavery,
Bondage Labor, Mandatory minimums and uh, and prison labor. I
(06:17):
mean it's a version of it. It's not outright slavery,
but wage slavery. Yeah, that might have to be its
own episode. Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that. We
should definitely have Nolan for that one. Does anybody want
to write to us and and let us know your
opinion of wage slavery? Actually, this is a sidebar. This
(06:37):
is a sidebar. Could I ask what your first job was?
My first job was working pool side as a server
at the Piedmont Driving Club Nancy, and then I got
an internship here. So I've got I had to oh, man, okay, uh,
(06:57):
without going too deep into my past, usually say that
sort of stuff. My first legal job was at a
at at a grocery store, and I tried, eventually, I tried, Matt,
to get fired. I did numerous things. They just wouldn't
fire me because the other people at the grocery store
(07:20):
were that bad, and so eventually I just stopped going. Man,
you weren't worried about the stigma of being fired from
one job. No, I went ahead and told them that
I was just going to stop showing up because I'm
getting another job, and I got a different job and
then just stopped going. That was the only way because
(07:42):
I had said I'll quit before and they would call
with a with a follow up thing, but it was
just very strange. This is surreal situation. You know, I
feel like you're opening up more than I've heard you
open up in a while. So I want to keep going,
but I know we have to continue. I'm setting it
up because, okay, let's you were a servant, I was
(08:03):
a grocer. Those are types of occupations, right. I mean
I was still a servant, so aren't we all? Well,
most of us. There's also ethnic or so called racial discrimination.
Is when you hear about minorities being being persecuted or
when you hear about groups that maybe to an outsider,
(08:25):
seem pretty much identical, sure, right, when you hear about
these groups having bitter, bitter rivalries. One famous situation in Europe,
of course, is the Roma, who have met numerous types
(08:46):
of prejudice and discrimination and stereotyping and have in many
cases never fully assimilated into the local culture of wherever
they are. Yeah, I was gonna say it's a lot
of that has to do with culture, old differences and
clashing with whichever power is seen as the norm or
(09:06):
whichever group is seen as the norm in an area.
And then there's cultural discrimination. Right. One big example of
this would be World War Two era Japan's nationalistic superiority
complex over China and, uh, the puppet state of Banchuria
that they built. They did unspeakable things. UH, they did
(09:31):
it because they thought the other people weren't, like, really human. Yeah,
that's a common theme, that's a common thing. And then
there's religious discrimination to right. Yes, and for examples of
this you can look to Catholic persecution of Jewish people's Protestants,
native peoples and colonized countries, and you can also see
this in the various forms of discrimination practice between Islamic
(09:55):
and Jewish cultures. Yeah, yeah. There's another aspect to us, however,
and this is the strangest thing, ladies and gentlemen, in
some cases societies have no concrete reasoning behind a discriminatory practice, none. Yeah,
I wanted to say that I feel that a lot
of times there's not that much of a concrete basis
(10:17):
for a lot of these discriminatory practices, but these in
particular that were about to look at just feels like why? So? Yeah,
for instance, the Bruckmann of Japan were historically treated in
a manner very similar to the Dale or untouchables in India,
(10:37):
despite the fact that they are not just not just
visually identical but genetically identical to mainstream Japanese population, and
they are practicing Buddhists and they are not in almost
any other way distinguishable from the rest of Japan. We're
talking about discrimination based on name or neighborhood. But today,
(10:57):
Ladies and Gentlemen, yes, there is a point to our
prief exploration. Today we're looking at another, perhaps lesser known
example of a similarly mysterious case of persecution. It's a
group of people known as the CAGO, also capo ago
gahette or, which stands for Christian right. So who are
(11:22):
these people? What's going on? Why have most of the
world's population never ever heard of them? We will tell
you after a brief word from our sponsor. Welcome back.
(11:46):
So we're looking at this group called the could go now,
historical records have proven that for centuries, communities in western
France and northern Spain practiced brutal, systematic discrimination against this
group of people. There there was a system that was
well established and it was oddly uniform throughout much of France.
(12:09):
All right, because this is unusual because at this time
people weren't communicating as easily as people communicate today, which
means that there's a lot of drift or creep in
local customs. And this was also one of the reasons
why Haresy was such a big concern for the Catholic Church.
(12:29):
Let's say there's a church as Gunna, isolated, it's out
in the Alps or something. Nobody's seen these people for Fifteen,
twenty years there getting some weird ideas and changing stuff around,
doing some weird things. Right, so this happened. This happened
constantly and the that is one of the reasons why
(12:50):
the persecution of the persecution of Cago in France and
in that area of Spain is fascinating. Now, of course
it evolves over time, but it seemed to have a
very oddly specific system to, you know, to this persecution
(13:15):
and they could go were Catholic they were. They were
just as Catholic as their neighbors who were not. Could go,
but they were only reluctantly loud into the auspices of
the church. Let's talk about some of the community rules
applying to these people. Uh, they could not take communion
the same way as, I guess, the more legitimate people
(13:37):
of their community. They had to enter and sit in
separate parts of the church, and they were also buried
in separate graveyards. And when it came to the church,
there are several instances of churches that had entrances just
in the back, you know, smaller doors that appear to
be that's what they were for. Some of them have
(13:57):
signs that even have the word could go or one
of these other names referred to them as it. But
there were also a few that had strange entrances where
you had to climb up a ladder in order to
get into another ladder system inside the church. Fascinating the
lengths that some of these churches went to to separate
this group of people from the rest of their flock
(14:20):
because they were seen somehow as tainted dirty. Yeah, they
were also not allowed to walk barefoot, which gave rise
to rumors that their feet were webbed and in some
places they were required to wear a badge that was
occasionally in the shape of a goose's foot. Yeah, and
it was red. Yeah, just a red badge that you
had to wear. Red Footed it was going to say again.
(14:43):
Sounds familiar to historical references. It's hurt here. Um. Oh,
and also, they were only allowed to make purchases in
town on Mondays. This is according to an eighteen account. Yeah,
so this already sounds weird, but it goes on. They
(15:04):
were restricted to certain trades, particularly carpentry. Uh. This led
to situations in which, uh, Caldgo may end up building
the very same church that's going to persecute them and
their family later. Talk about a head trip. Huh, a
little bit, and we're by the way, one of the
(15:25):
great resources we got for this was from an author
named Daniel Hawkins, who wrote paper called cameras that degrade humanity,
like Cago and discrimination. So we uh, we found some
other things here. I want to read a small selection
from this paper. Restrictive legislation concerning could go appeared many
(15:50):
times after twelve eighty eight, which is when we see
more detailed municipal records. While details differed, prohibitions typically expressed
some other concerns. They required that could go were segregated
in their living quarters, occupations and day to day interactions.
They were forbidden from marrying. Non could go. They could
not enter Taverns, hold cabarets, use public fountains, sell food
(16:13):
or wine, touch food in the market, work with livestock
or enter a mill. They were not allowed to carry
arms other than professional tools, and this goes to the
example we talked about earlier. There was severe and brutal
punishment for transgressors. So if we go back with our
time traveling hypothetical French Matt Frederick, which, by the way,
(16:36):
I'm liking this character. I see him in a beret,
but I don't know if that's historically accurate. I don't
think so, but let's go with it. What about it?
What about it? CASSIC? Yes, cast all right. So if
we go back to that time, where where our Oh, Matt,
what's your French name? Pierre? Yeah, okay, Alright, Pierre Frederick.
(17:03):
When Pierre Frederick is walking by, he may and sees
that hand being nailed to the door. He may well
have not said a word if it was familiar with
the discrimination against could go, because we know what's happened
several times. One could go. Merchant was punished for touching
the main baptismal fought by having his hands severed from
(17:26):
his arm and nailed to a door. I don't think
it was the door of the church, but that would
be that seems like that would be a bad idea.
Nail a severed arm to the place where everybody can enter,
just the hand to hand. Sure. Uh. There was another
account of a man who allegedly h grew food on
(17:47):
his land and farmed it and he had metal spikes
pushed through his feet as punishment. That's that's very it's
very odd, you know, and it's it's disturbing get when
you consider that these people, although you might have heard
them described as swarthy at some point. Uh, I also
(18:09):
read something where they were described as being fair skinned. Yeah,
there are widely different accounts of how what a Cago
looks like. Right. Rumors about them were wide ranging, rampant stuff.
We can just go down the list, right. Oh sure. Yeah,
they were viewed as heretics, like we said, despite their
(18:29):
regular attendants to church, despite being Catholics, they were viewed
as not being Catholic. Yes, they were accused of being lepers,
which will get into. Uh, there was there were rumors
about them holding secret meetings for nefarious, unknown purposes. Yeah, again,
we see this throughout history. Like, what are they meeting
(18:49):
in secret about? Are they actually meeting in secret, Dude,
or are you? Are you just a little paranoid? Anyway,
they're probably saying, hey, does everybody have their hands? Yeah,
how what are strategies we can use to not be
as persecuted? Yeah, we're pro hand h yeah, they're also
accused of being descendants of Ghaazi. I don't know if
(19:11):
I'm saying that correctly, but this was the wicked servant
of the Prophet Elisha, and, you know, being the children
of this person, it was believed that they were all
cursed with the curse that was placed on Ghazzi. That's
that's similar to the old, latter day saint policy of
discrimination against against darker skinned people, right. Uh. Yeah, Ghazzi
(19:36):
is a figure found in the book of Kings. He
was in a position of power, but he was corrupt.
Uh rugard kipling wrote a poem about him, but I
can't remember exactly what it was. Uh Yeah, so this something.
This was something that was common in this era of Christianity,
(20:02):
which was to find a biblical basis, however tenuous, to
rationalize mistreatment of an individual. So it's a long book.
You read closely enough and think creatively enough, you're bound
to find something, and I want to note here. So
(20:26):
his big sin was avaraice, right, he was stealing stuff,
he was racking up change in his master's names, tricking people. Yeah, yeah,
and uh, he was guilty of duplicity and dishonesty. So Elisha,
the Prophet denounced him and passed upon him the terrible doom,
(20:46):
and this is a quote from kings, that leprosy of
namin would cleave to him and his descendants forever. Yep,
so that's where you pull some you know someone in
the church believing that to be true and hey, here's
someone I can apply that too. But but this curse
came with at least some allegations of dark powers, isn't
(21:08):
that right? Yeah, there are. There are allegations that they
were sorcerers. It was believed that they could be witch cattle,
which sounds a little more fun than it probably should
to me. It sounds like the you know, of course,
these are largely agricultural communities, but right now it sounds
like one of the most useless superpowers ever. Whether you're
(21:31):
whether you're a villain or a hero, you're pretty much restricted.
You have to live around livestock for it to even matter. Yeah,
the cattle witcher is not going to be a threat
in New York City. Gosh, that's a great character, though.
The cattle which the cattle witcher on the next episode
(21:51):
of the cattle witcher. Yes, it was also believed that
perhaps they had the power of the evil eye, where
if they stared at your child long enough, or anyone really,
they can cause terrible things to happen to them. They
get curse with a glance. Yeah, uh, and this this
ties into some of the more wide ranging accusations of
(22:15):
paranormal ability that occur with this sort of persecution. You'll
also hear stuff about being able to poison wells or
being able to you know, when they're talking about bewitching cattle,
they're talking about the cattle falling ill or perhaps miscarrying
during birth and stuff like that. Well, yeah, that's why
(22:35):
they weren't allowed to touch food. It was it was
believed that any food that they touched, no matter at
what stage. Is why you can't farm. It will rot immediately,
will be soiled immediately. You cannot eat or, you know,
do anything with edible objects that are touched by these
could go. That's the belief cattle witchers. I'm stuck on
(22:58):
it out cattle witchers. Uh Yeah, so you also find
that in the real estate, right? You find evidence of
this belief in the real estate. Oh yeah, with these powers.
That's why a lot of times you would see there
their residences, the areas where they lived had to be
separated by somebody of water, a stream of water, just
(23:18):
enough to where those mystical powers can't carry over because
their beliefs about how magic operates. Today you're not going
to hear much about the COULDGO fit. Families that discover
this heritage in the modern day often will hide it
in fear of continuing low level discrimination against their spouses
(23:40):
or their children. So very, very, very, very very few
come forward in the modern day. And the population itself
was always relatively small in comparison to, you know, the
rest of France and Spain. Uh, now it seems set
to fade into nothingness, but there's still so many unanswered questions, Matt.
(24:02):
Who are these people? Why did they become the repressed
class and maybe most importantly, where did they come from?
These are all questions we're going to look at right
after a word from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy.
(24:30):
No one really knows. No one knows for certain where
they could go originate. Yeah, but there's some theories. There
are many, many, many, many, many theories, but they are
of a varying plausibility and they are all somewhat fascinating.
I would say. For instance, were they the descendants of
(24:51):
Moorish soldiers who, for instance, during the Muslim conquest of
Spain or areas of Spain, uh simply migrated up at
out in de France? It's a possibility. Did they begin
as a guild of skilled medieval woodworkers, with their persecution
(25:13):
rising as a form of commercial rivalry that eventually got
solidified into tradition? So people didn't know why these dudes
were dirty, but they knew that their parents thought that.
What if they were Moorish Medieval woodworkers? And so this. Yeah,
this ties back into the question that I earlier asked You, Matt,
(25:34):
about your first occupation because the strange thing is that
if we lived in a different society or we lived
in a even a different time period, we would overwhelmingly
be likely to continue the work that our parents did,
(25:55):
as even a guild or caste or something. So because
we would be apprentices, hopefully, if we were lucky, talented.
So if your father is a cobbler, you're a cobbler.
If your father is uh yeah, then you're an accountant.
If your father is a military officer, you follow the
(26:16):
same thing. If your father is a cattle witcher, Um,
then you are also. I'm sorry, you're also a cattle witcher.
I was gonna let it go. I wouldna let it go.
I'm not in any way condoning the bewitchment of livestock,
of cattle. They've got it tough enough. However, I am
which all the cattle that you possibly can and then
(26:39):
tell me how you did it. Right to US conspiracy
and how stuff works, DOT com. Okay, all right, yes, yes, please,
let not know the source of your dark movine related powers.
So the thing that we see here that's strange is
that when people had less social mobility, when your parents
(27:04):
or your grandparents occupations would largely determine your own occupation.
We also see a society where certain occupations are considered
more valuable than others, or maybe a better way to
say it as certain occupations are seen as much less valuable.
For instance, executioners had some of the same laws against
(27:29):
their behavior as did could go in, and this was
in Germany. Perhaps. An executioner can't go to the bar,
can't touch food or drink around people, because the executioner,
like his father before him, makes a living by killing
people and that's seen, as you know, morally reprehensible but
(27:53):
necessary for society. And we see this in some other cultures,
for instance working with hides or disposing of human waste,
like the untouchables, right, that would be that would be
a lower cast job. So and a lot of it
seems to arise from almost it's a it's a combination
(28:16):
of lack of scientific understanding of how some of it works,
a lack of technology for cleaning, like and being able
to cleanse oneself after working a job such as killing
people or, you know, taking the hides off of animals.
You know this perception of unclean. I mean it's rife
(28:37):
with disease and for germ theory, and it's true that
it is like it actually is, so that not having
the technology also creates that system where somebody in the
historical record experienced, you know, drinking with the executioner who
happened to kill somebody who had a terrible disease, and boom,
next thing you know, yeah, I mean, well, no, but
(29:01):
I can. I mean, that's just how it happened. It's
just the only way that it happens, right, and it's
something that people accept. And also, of course, I'm just
saying Couru because I like the word. The only way
that somebody can get Kuru is by consuming uh, brains, brains, yeah,
which will give you those prions, Um, which are bad news. Uh.
(29:24):
Speaking of bad news, Matty, I just realized something. If
your Avatar in the Middle Ages, there in the Pierre
in the thirtreds, right, uh, if if he's wearing a Cassock,
it makes your situation even worse because you're probably the
(29:46):
priest or, a priest. Okay, people have a lot to
get ready for. There's a mass later. Yeah, yeah, you
don't want him to get your own. You maybe even
want to help the guy, but you're like, I'm not
getting that filthy CAGO blood on my Cassock to use
my shoe to open the door. Just shoot, opened the
(30:08):
door quick, everyone, check the cattle. Uh. So there's this
other idea that they were descendants of earlier, uh cultural
groups and that this somehow made them not worthy of
trust or made them tainted, made them somehow other, made
(30:32):
them threatening to a degree. And one would be that
that they were descendants of the goths. The could go
first appear in records as early as the tenth century,
but they became more prominent from the century on and
they were in both sides of the Western Pyrenees. Uh.
They lived in these small, poor, segregated communities on the
(30:55):
periphery of these villages and towns. So they've been around
for so long that it's easily, easily understandable that someone
would rationalize persecuting them by saying, well, you know, you
remember those other guys from centuries ago? Yeah, it's them,
(31:17):
don't trust them. And there are a couple other theories
about groups that came through France and Spain as conquerors
at one point or another, like the Saracens. Like there
again remnants who perhaps have um switched over to Catholicism
and now they continue to live in the area, their
families do, and you know they're bad news just because
(31:39):
of that. Again, these are all possibilities. And maybe then
it's a range of these, like it's a combination of
all of these things, of just people that look other. Yeah, yeah,
possibly like the we'll get to the the conspiratorial angle
of this. But they're more than you might think because
(32:01):
obviously we're looking at a mainstream community that conspired to
repress a very small minority, uh, which is odd because
I think in the sixteen hundreds the could go, or
maybe two percent of the population. So never, never, in
large numbers. Um, although I did really remember some some
(32:23):
other stuff I wanted to mention. I don't know if
you found this in your research. Some more specificity about
could go. So, like you and I said, they were
described as fair skinned by some, as Swarthy by others,
dark skinned, dark skinned, lights in the ear lobes. That's
the thing. That's why I wanted to mention they supposedly
(32:43):
lacked ear lobes and were Miss Magicians, sorcerers, had an infectious,
terrible odor. They're always accused of smelling bad and they
gave off great heat. Here's a quote. When the south
wind blew their lips, jugular glands and the duck foot
mark under their left armpit all swelled. What. Yeah, so, uh,
(33:08):
they okay. So they are considered to be smelly, to
have these strange physical ailments, and that goes to one
of their biggest rational one of the biggest rationalizations for
persecuting these people, which was that they are lepers and Cretans.
(33:33):
So I'm familiar with lepers. That would be, uh, several.
I know that encompasses several different diseases of the time,
but a lot of it has to do with infectious
disease that could be transmitted easily if interacting with this person. Right,
and that would make sense. UH, make sure these people
(33:54):
aren't interacting with the everyday public as to not kill
everyone in the village. Right. I mean that that makes sense. Yeah. So,
one of the prevailing beliefs among historians about the could
Goo is that leprosy was the essence of this phenomenon.
People used to think that leprosy was inherited right, was
(34:19):
a poison of the generations and the blood h however,
even after people knew that leprosy was not a purely
inherited trait, you know, that could communicate between unrelated people. Uh.
Some authors considered the could go to be a special
case of hereditary lepers, uh, that the disease was just
(34:44):
kind of concentrated in them. However, another writer said that
maybe what happens, maybe the birth of the could go,
when the records were appearing in the tenth centuries, started
when people who were already infected h something and considered lepers,
banded together on the periphery of a town solidarity and
(35:06):
to yeah, to make their own make their own village,
and that later, you know, their descendants were affected by
the stigma of the disease, even though they didn't carry it.
They just came from that crappy home situation. So the
(35:28):
weird thing is, though, that aside from, you know, these
vestigial traits and these vestigial rules of, you know, don't
touch stuff with your hands, don't go through the same door,
et Cetera. Uh, people seem to interact, they seemed to
exist in the community. You know, if they were doing woodworking,
(35:51):
you would still take a table from the person. Somehow, somehow,
the wood was fine, somehow the wood was fine, yeah, all.
So we know that groups of could go were proven
not to have leprosy in six after decades of dispute,
people complained of discrimination, could go complain this discrimination to
(36:14):
parliament and they gave them a thorough medical examination. They
examined twenty two people, all carpenters or joiners, and they
exams at this time. We're not we're not the turn
your head and cough inconveniences of the modern age. These
people had their bodies palpated, their arms were bled. Uh.
(36:38):
They applied heated cups to them to check their circulation
and the doctors came back with the results and they said, well,
these are just the ordinary people. Uh there, fine, they're
in the quotas, there in all health in their body,
exempt from all contagious maladies and without any disposition to
(36:59):
those maladies. Were quiring them to be separated from the
company of other healthy people. So they blew it out
of the the water. Yeah, they didn't find any, quote, peculiar diseases,
but leprosy at the time was not considered purely a
specific physical ailment. In earlier years it was more of
a umbrella or catch all description for possibly a spiritual
(37:22):
things your your body could be fine, but you might
be morally or spiritually lepross. That's why they could go.
We're also occasionally called white lepers, which is just a
very UN appealing name that. Well, could it simply be
that they were discriminated against because they were poor? We
(37:43):
know that the state of the poor in France and
Spain at the time was the social position was very,
very different. It was considered an affront to have to
see the poor. Yeah, but then there are accounts, at
least from that reference that I gave, where the poor people,
(38:04):
the peasants, are the ones who are prosecuting. They're the
most opposed. So that's the chicken and egg thing. was
their poverty results of this discrimination, or was the discrimination
result of the poverty? I tend to think the former,
(38:24):
but you're right, and we see this in modern societies
today too. If you want people to be satisfied with
their position in an unfair hierarchy, all you have to
do is put at least one more wrong on the
ladder below them. Give them someone to look down on
and they will stop looking up to wonder what's happening
(38:48):
at the top. That is unfortunate and too true. Too True. Uh,
it seems that later the rise of racially based accusations
like Oh, these swore the moorish soldiers or whatever, that
they came about after the decline of leprosy, after the
(39:09):
climb physical threat from disease, meaning that the racism happened
afterwards to rationalize the pre existing prejudice. You know, that's
so crazy. Yeah, it's so disturbing. If it's not one thing,
it's another. Well, what I've found? What I found is
(39:31):
that the way a lot of these with these rumors
that we discussed earlier and all these things that that
could go or purportedly to be able to do and
smell like and all these things, a lot of it
was handed down through songs that were the they called
them party songs that would be spread in probably a
(39:51):
tavern where it's the again, the peasants all drinking together,
and this makes so much sense to me now, been
drinking too together, singing about the rung of the ladder
that's below them, uh, to make themselves feel better. I
can totally see that now, as Pierre in the tavern. UH, wow, this,
(40:12):
that is really disturbing. Yeah, AH, no, kidding. And here's
here's another thing. Next question. Right, we were probably never
going to have an answer about where, where this group
of people came from, where they actually came from and
why they were originally persecuted. We just have those best
(40:33):
guesses and sadly we are probably not going to find out,
because I know there's so many people in the audience
now who are probably yelling at the speaker. DNA, you guys,
just do the DNA tests. Fantastic point. If there were
someone to do a DNA test on. You can read.
(40:57):
Probably the most recent thing you can read about this
disappearing group of people is an article in the independent
from about two thousand and eight where one one woman
from the French Pyrenees, Marie Pierre Uh MINET Bezet, as
(41:17):
talking about her ancestry. At the time she was a
forty something mother of three and she was being billed
as the last living Cago, or at least the last
the last one who will admit to being CAGO. And
they say it's a bad thing. She said, it's still
a bad thing in the mountains in two eight uh
(41:39):
the French are ashamed of what they did. They could go.
Are Ashamed of what they were and no one will
confess that there could go descent. So this means that, ah,
this means that this entire concept, whatever was based on,
is disappearing, because now the conspiracy has shifted. It went
(42:03):
from mainstream French communities conspiring to essentially make life Hell
and keep these people at the bottom of the social
barrel to a conspiracy by those people's descendants, by the
could go descendants, to escape and erase their past, just
like that guy in Gadaga played by Ethan Hawk. Great movie.
(42:24):
Thank you, they thank you. Thank you. To go back
to to go back to Um revie Pierre really fast.
At the very end of that article, she they're asking
about her children, because she has several children, and the
big thing she says, and she's like, no, I can't
(42:45):
show you pictures of my children because of the stigma
it remains so much in this area today. You can't,
you can't even know my children. Look at just in case.
And she also says that could go. She's one of
the people who says that could go, or described as
swarthy are as, darker skin, postiferous. Yes, they called the
(43:06):
postiferous people, which has an unfortunate ring to it, and
with this we with this we end our narrative of
the could go this the shifting social conspiracy, first of
a group, of a mainstream group too, essentially enslave, socially
(43:29):
bind a group, and then that group's collective effort to
end itself, very successful effort to do so. But these
are not the only vanishing people in the world. We
know that there are several other examples right the Aromanians
and the Russians, who are both mentioned in the article
(43:53):
in the Independent. Uh. The aromanians the day back to
Roman colonization. They're spread across the southern Balkans, but they're
believed to be almost extinct. or their cultural identity and
evidence of their culture lives on with some Grecian festivals.
(44:16):
And then the Russians are they're around one point two
million expected to or estimated to live in Europe. Over
half of them or in the Ukraine. They're not recognized
by the Ukraine because of the Communist regime of the
fifties and that's the time their church was also eradicated.
But but they're responsible for a lot of those beautiful
(44:38):
wooden churches that you can see in the area. One
of the points here is that our species doesn't, you know,
just lose memories, doesn't just lose cities, which we've covered,
doesn't just lose civilizations, it also loses entire cultures, entire
(44:59):
groups of people who who are alike by blood, who
are also alike by language and by custom. You know,
then one of the other things we lose our entire
animal species. I know that's another podcast, but yeah, that's
another podcast to uh. And it's true, unfortunately, but it
(45:20):
is also true that now, in the modern age, we
have the ability to preserve some of this stuff and
we have the ability, thanks to the rise of easily
affordable recording technology, two preserve some piece of the past,
some knowledge, some essence of the days and the people
(45:45):
that came before. And that's why I would suggest, this
is just my opinion, but would suggest to all of
you out there listening to this, whether in Twenties Sixteen
or twenty one, Oh six, don't as a take too.
If you have older family members or if you have
someone older in your community and you think that that
(46:06):
community is not long for this world, because it happens
every civilization rises and falls, you can easily take a
second to just interview them and record their answers and
it's something that you will like and and your kids
will like and on and on, on and on, and
nobody has to be a cattle witcher. So, with that
(46:28):
being said, before we head out today, it's time for
ours shut at corners. We have a single shout out
to give today. It is from redacted. That's what I'm
gonna call that, uh, and here it goes. I'm a
(46:48):
military psychiatrist currently in residency training. So when you ask
for stories from people who use mind altering drugs in
the military, well, it's kind of my thing. Regarding drugs
in general, all active duty personnel get randomly drug tested
frequently and unless you have very good medical reason to
be on a drug, you're likely going to be dishonorably discharged. Yeah,
(47:08):
we're going to continue reading. Just some excerpts from redacted's email, uh,
which is fantastic, by the way. He says, or she says,
regarding uppers. Yes, some are still used, but to a
substantially lesser degree than you might suspect. Uh. Provigil, which
is the brand name for modafinil, is a non emphetamine
(47:32):
stimulant vastly preferred over amphetamine derivatives. We still don't know
exactly how it works, but it seems to simulate Alpha
brain wave activity while decreasing delta and data waves, effectively
simulating wakefulness. Regarding amphetamines, while a D H D is
still probably underdiagnosed, chances are if you've made it through
(47:54):
basic training you don't need a D H D meads. Personally,
I hate them. I've seen several sailors and marines get
kicked out of the service after getting caught using them
to try and boost their performance. I've also seen several
service members get tipped over into a frank psychosis that
appears to have been triggered by amphetamine overdoses. It's scary,
it's dangerous and I keep my sailors as far away
(48:16):
from the stuff as possible. And about battlefield medications. All
sorts of really crazy stuff goes down a firefight. Sometimes
you cannot afford to lose a riflemen, no matter what
the cause. We have combinations of common medicines that can
keep a trigger puller in the fight for longer than
nature would allow, but it's last ditch kind of move
and deeply frowned upon by almost all medical professionals. That
(48:40):
is fascinating that that one in particular. He talks about
new tropics, which may be something that you heard from
the Joe Rogan podcast or somewhere else. That's how I
heard about them, and the person writting this email says
I have personally cared for patients that have had substantially
catastrophic reactions from trying to get a quote, Bradley Cooper
in limit US unquote state, and these people have crashed
(49:03):
and burned on the way there. I strongly advise the
patients avoid this type of supplicant, Supplement or medication. So
finishes up talking about withdrawal. said, in the vast majority
of cases morphine withdrawal cannot kill you. They say it's awful,
it's painful, squatesque, but unlikely to be life threatening. Nowhere.
Nearest dangerous is opiate overdose, and so it says. Hope
(49:25):
that helps. If you have any other questions about medicine, psychiatry,
the military, particularly military medicine, I'd be happy to share
what I can. Thanks so much for writing in redacted.
We are and that's the end of this classic episode.
If you have any thoughts or questions about this episode,
you can get into contact with us in a number
of different ways. One of the best is to give
(49:47):
us a call. Our number is one eight three three
STD W Y T K. If you don't want to
do that, you can send us a good old fashioned email.
We are conspiracy at I heart radio DOT COM. Stuff
they don't want you to know is a production of
I heart radio. For more podcasts for my heart radio,
visit the I heart radio APP, apple podcasts or wherever
(50:08):
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