September 23, 2025 • 51 mins
On June 22nd, 1983, 15-year-old Vatican City resident Emanuela Orlandi disappeared after attending a music lesson. Over the decades, numerous people claimed to have seen Orlandi, or reached out with leads on her fate. Yet even now, the case remains unsolved. Join the guys as they explore that facts of the case, the wide-ranging possibilities, the allegations of conspiracy, crime and cover-ups, ultimately asking: What happened to Emanuela Orlandi?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow conspiracy realist. It's June twenty second, nineteen eighty three.
We're in Vatican City where a fifteen year old resident
named Emanuela or Landy disappears. Do you guys remember this
one very much too?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I remember hearing from some listeners who passed on
some very interesting inside information about this story as well.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Guys, I don't remember a ton about this specific thing.
I'm really excited to re listen.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Especially given that three years after we initially recorded this
episode in twenty twenty, the case was reopened.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Then, remembering back, there definitely was
one particular listener that sent us some very remarkable documents
and images related to this, and I believe we talk
about that in the episode. So why don't we take
a word from our sponsor really quickly, and then we'll
jump right into this classic episode on what happened to
Emmanuela or Landy.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
A production of IHEARTRADI, Hello, welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt my name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you
are here and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know, coming to you live and direct. Yet
again we're your favorite Quentin Quarantinos. We're still keeping the
lights on in our separate bunkers here. Just wanted to
(01:49):
check in with everybody real quick before we dive in.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm really good. Over the weekend, I spent some time
digging through our voicemail archive and everybody that's been calling
in and got to talk with several of you you
listening right now. Speaking to you, I've been instructed to
say the word divination to prove to one person that
(02:14):
I called that it was real. So there you have it.
I would just say everyone out there that I've spoken to,
and a lot of people that have been calling in,
you know, we're all still dealing with this thing. A
lot of you are doing great work to continue both
the economy and the health of others of us who
are listening and present today. So thank you to all
(02:36):
of you. Just keep doing what you're doing, especially you
truckers who are out there are still going every day.
You healthcare workers who are going every day, essential workers
in the grocery stores who are going every day and
putting yourselves at risk. Big props to you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well said, what about you, Nol, how's it going?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh it's good. I had a really nice weekend. I
made tied ie shirts with my daughter. You know, proof
positive that the madness is really starting to take hold,
because that's a thing I never would have done before.
But you know what, it turns out I really like
it and it's you get some really nice results. We
tried two different methods. There's the twist method where you
(03:19):
put rubber bands around it like a braid of a
giant ponytail, like a French braid. And there's not one
where you can just bunch it up and put the
rubber bands around the wad and.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
The results are really delightful.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think I'm a tie die guy. Now.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Good to you here, And of course you can find
some of those results on our very social media, which
we will shout out either during this show or at
the end.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, mine's at how now Noel Brown? If you want
to check it out, Ben, what have you been up to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
All sorts of things. You know, they're really deep into
a really really deep into a strange web. That is
the subject of today's show. This is something that I
think is familiar to a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists.
It's a mystery, it's a disappearance. And you know, of course,
(04:10):
if we are being realistic, which we must be, the
sad truth of the world is that thousands of people
disappear every day, even now in twenty twenty, as the
surveillance state grows stronger than it ever has been before. Yet,
of all those disappearances, this case has always stood out
for us, for me, for you, Matt, you know, and
(04:32):
particularly for Paul Michigan Control Decat himself. Recently, we received
several partially redacted records from a source that prefers to
remain anonymous, and this prompted us to finally dive in
to one of the most mystifying disappearances in modern history.
Today we are asking what exactly happened to EMMANUELA or
(04:56):
Landing a quick bit of house keeping here. First, our
source that decided to remain anonymous or preferred that way.
When this source sent us these documents, we circulated them
amid ourselves. We haven't shared them anywhere and we're don't.
(05:17):
I don't know if we should, honestly, but we'll get
into that. And Secondly, as we like to say, at
the top of every particularly darker violent episode, there is
content in today's show that may be triggering to some people.
We will be talking about the allegations of sexual abuse,
(05:39):
we will be talking about murder, and there will be
scenes of violence, so we want to put that up
there at the top. Now, we have to do some
background for everybody who thinks Emmanuela or Landy, who is that?
Did you say Orlando, No, we said or Landy. And
let's learn a little bit about our main character. Here
(06:04):
here are the facts.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, Emmanuela or Landi was born in nineteen sixty eight,
one of five children, and according to records, her father
worked either at the Vatican Bank or was actually a
member of the staff in the papal household. According to
Emmanuela's older brother Pietro, the family lived inside Vatican City
(06:29):
and would often they grew up feeling as though the
Vatican gardens, which are lush and gorgeous, was their own backyard.
That's according to him, and he's been a very outspoken
person in the press about this story. In nineteen eighty three,
Emanuela was a sophomore in high school. The school year
had ended for the summer, and she was taking flute
(06:50):
lessons nearby at a music school, at the Tomaso Ludovico
Victoria School, and she was into music. She sang in
the choir, played the flute, and seemed to have a
real gift for just picking up instruments.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, I was on the twenty second of June in
that year, nineteen eighty three when she disappeared, and we
don't know much, but this is what we do now.
She left a family apartment. She was wearing a white
T shirt. She had on denim overalls and running shoes.
She got onto a bus and she traveled a pretty
(07:28):
short distance, only about two kilometers. She got off near
the Piazza Navona, and this is right in front of
the Italian Senate. By the way, she was stopped by
a young man in a green BMW. There was a
traffic officer who witnessed this whole scene, just Emmanuela getting
off and speaking to this man in a green BMW.
(07:50):
The Senate security cameras were not working that day though,
so there was no video proof of this.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Matt, I just want to interject it and put this
in the note. But it's important to note that her brother,
Pietro Orlandi, who's going to play a big role in
this story, he is the reason that she ended up
using public transit. According to what we know, she asked
him for a ride to the flute lesson and he
(08:18):
refused for one reason or another, So that's why she
ended up on the bus.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah. He is stated several times over the course of
all these years that they got into a fight a
row and that's why they decided not to go that route.
Right for him taking her there, but she did end
up going to her flute class or music class as
she normally would have. She did call her sister after
(08:45):
that class had completed, and that phone call was the
last known contact that anyone ever had with Emmanuela, at
least the last known contact to the family and to investigators. Right.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, she had made plans with her sister to meet
at a piazza at seven point thirty pm, and that
is where her trail ends. She was reported a missing
person the next day. Also, want to bust a myth.
Here in most countries, you do not have to wait
twenty four hours to report someone missing. That's a story
(09:22):
the television has told us. If you have reasonable cause
to believe someone has gone missing, go ahead and report
them because every hour, every second counts, so the investigation begins.
The next day. Tips start rolling in. Some are much
more promising or seem much more solid than others, to
(09:43):
tips in particular capture the investigator's attention. There's one caller
who refers to himself as Pierre Luigi. He makes a
call on June twenty fifth, and he says, I've seen
this child, not in Vatican City. I've seen her earlier
in Rome on the day of her disappearance, and he
(10:05):
provided details that made it sound believable to the authorities.
He mentioned that she had a flute, a flutecase with her.
He described her clothing, which you described earlier, Matt and
his description match. However, he had some interesting things to say.
Pierre Luigi said the girl was not going by the
(10:25):
name Emmanuela. Instead, she was calling herself Barberella, and that
she had run away from home to sell, of all
things products for avon. That's an interesting detail. Too, because
it wasn't something that was out there in the public sphere.
You know, it's pretty common in high profile cases for
(10:46):
authorities to withhold some information because it helps you separate
the wheat from the chaff, believe it or not. In
a lot of missing cases, a lot of suspected homicides,
when authorities asked the public for tips, they get a
lot of really cold hearted pranks where they get some
unstable people making ridiculous claims. So the fact that he
(11:07):
knew about this Avon thing was especially fascinating because it
tracked with information provided by the family Orlandi had mentioned
wanting to sell Avon products earlier to her sister before
her disappearance, which is something a lot of people did
not know.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So a second call came just a couple of days later,
on June twenty eighth, another man claimed to have met
a young woman going by Barbara who had also run
away from home, and this caller said that he had
seen her in a bar nearby the music school and
you know, calling herself Barbara. There were several other tips.
(11:47):
Some caller speculated that there was a conspiracy afoot. A
Turkish terrorist group called the Gray Wolves, allegedly had planned
to kidnap or Landy allegedly then exchange her for one
of their members, sort of a political prisoner swap situation,
a memet ali Agka.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
It would be.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Assassin who'd been imprisoned for shooting the pope two years earlier.
So what where did it go from there?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Oh, devil coins, that's where it went. And we shall
also mentioned that second caller also said the young woman
who was calling herself Barbara had run away from home.
So they have those commonalities, and we have a great story.
It's not really ours to tell. It is a story
from our good friend, writer Die Paul mission controlled decad
(12:37):
about fascinating coins that were allegedly discovered during the as
the attempted assassination of the pope. That's a story for
another day. But there's the door to the Google rabbit hole.
If you want to get lost over the week, you're
you're asking a vital question, Noel, what did happen? There's
(12:59):
no shortage of intriguing, compelling, tantalizing that would be the
right word, tantalizing theories surrounding Orlandy's disappearance and at this
stage her presumed death. You know, the Turkish terrorist group
that's just scratching the surface. We have to remember the
(13:19):
Vatican and the surrounding region is a hub of religious power,
and it's a hub of mafia power. It's a hub
of organized crime, and these groups often come under suspicion
in the world of conspiracy. I meant the Vatican City
itself is a very very weird place. Let's see the
(13:41):
age of consent for a long time, I think was
twelve years old. It's also the only place where you
can find an atm in Latin. Just so these aren't
all horrible quick facts. And it also wields this outsize,
tremendous influence on human civilization, and it has for centuries
(14:03):
and centuries.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
You know, the.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Nexus of powerful religious organization, of incredibly powerful godlike financial institutions,
and criminal organizations. It all comes to a head here
in a very real way. You could say it's even
more powerful than the City of London, which longtime listeners
(14:29):
you'll recall is not actually London. It's just in London,
and it's called the City of London. It is a
very confusing time for names because Vatican City it's called
a city, and it is a city, but it's a state,
and it's an uber state, and it's beyond a lot
of laws that would apply to Jane and John does
(14:49):
like us and the people listening, unless you're listening and
you're the pope, in which case thanks for checking in.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Man.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It is very odd to imagine Vaticans City as a
religious monarchy. That is just a strange that's a strange thing.
There are so few places that exist in twenty twenty
that are full on monarchies, you know, without a parliament
(15:18):
connected in some way, or without a secondary governmental institution
attached in some way. I'm not saying they don't exist.
They are. Certainly, they're certainly, I guess a dozen or
so dozens, let's say, But just to have the amount
of wealth and power that they have, it's pretty strange
(15:40):
to see it both together.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And it's so weird to talk about this case because
you know, if you picture this episode and this exploration
as us walking through an art gallery in a hallway,
we're passing this gigantic mural that says Vatican Conspiracies, and
we're kind of pointing at it for you. But it's
not the part of this episode that we're going to
(16:04):
focus on. You can find our earlier videos on this.
You can find some earlier podcasts we've done. But it
goes very very deep and a disturbing amount of the
things that are treated as conspiracy theories about the Vatican
have later turned out to be at least partially true.
This is reality, and given this reality, it's no surprise
then that the Vatican is the subject of so many
(16:27):
conspiracy theories. And like the leads in the Orlandic case,
some of these theories are way more plausible than others.
I think it's this inherent strangeness of Vatican City and
this bizarre, tragic disappearance of this fifteen year old girl
that combined to make this such a mystifying mystery. And
(16:50):
you know, this is just context for the question we
asked earlier. Will pause for a word from our sponsors
and return to ask what happened? And to EMMANUELA or Lande,
here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, decades later, this mystery is still just that a mystery.
It is unsolved, though there are plenty of theories, as
tends to be the case when you have cold cases
like this. We had talked about the gray wolves, but
what about that other organization that seems to thrive so
(17:32):
readily in Vatican City, the mafia. Mafia theories largely revolve
around a Rome based syndicate, a crime syndicate known as
the Banda de la Magliana led by Enrico de Pedis.
The theory states that the syndicate had loaned large sums
(17:53):
of money to the Vatican Bank, but weren't getting their
payments as quickly as they would have liked at all,
they weren't being paid back what they were owed, so
they decided that taking a Vatican official's daughter for ransom
was the way to get their money back, and one
of de Pettus's former girlfriends claimed on the record that
(18:15):
her ex told her he had kidnapped or Landy, and
these claims were plausible enough that the authorities decided to
get involved.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, you know. Depettus himself, like many mafioso, had a
live by the sword, die by the sword situation. He
was fatally shot in a square in Rome back in
nineteen ninety, and years later after his death, an investigative
journalist found out that Depettus's body had been very very
(18:49):
quietly moved from a normal cemetery to the prestigious Basilica
sant Apaullinaire. This is interesting because this Basilican Britis is
not It's like a very exclusive club for corpses, if
you want to be crass about it. This is not
(19:09):
where ordinary people are buried. This is the eternal parking
spot for the bodies of cardinals and princes and other
illustrious members of society, Vatican and lay people alike. So
it's odd that a very successful criminal would end up
(19:30):
first off buried somewhere else and then for some reason
have his body moved posthumously to a different site. People
were freaking out, and so in twenty thirteen, like you're
saying no from some of the leads, they got the
authorities actually decided that they would open the tomb of
(19:51):
this mobster, and they wanted to see whether the rumors
were true, whether it was in fact the case that
Weella Orlandi was dead and that her remains were secretly
placed inside the tomb of Dippetus.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Which does seem on the surface like it would be
a little odd.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
He was killed in nineteen ninety, she's been missing since
nineteen eighty three. That would mean seven years of waiting
until you intererred her into a tomb, just if he
was if she was put into his original resting place, right,
and then after he got moved, there were a lot
of big, you know, what ifs, But there was rumor
(20:35):
and there was you know, possibility, So it was looked into.
And when they did open it up, they found more
than they bargained for. Right, his body was there. It
was a very nice sarcophagus in which he was placed.
He was well preserved. He had a dark blue suit
and a black tie. They took fingerprints from his body.
(20:58):
They confirmed his identity. But they also found this other
thing talked away inside this ancient crypt where he was buried.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's right. They found not just one person's remains, but
multiple remains. There were dozens of boxes that held unidentified
human bones, you know. So they went looking for one
secret corpse and they found multiple remains. And then this
(21:29):
is this here's where the plot gets even trickier. Around
the same time they said this was twenty thirteen, right,
so roughly around the same time, a returning guest of
sorts to our show, the infamous Vatican exorcist, Gabrielle Amorth,
claimed that EMMANUELA or Landy did not run away and
(21:50):
claimed instead that she was kidnapped by a member of
none other than the Vatican Police Force. He said that
she was kidnapped for the purpose of being abused at
sex parties for lack of a better term, and then
that she would be murdered. After that, he said she
had already died. He also alleged, and this is public too,
(22:11):
It's been reported in multiple sources, he also alleged that
officials of a foreign embassy they did not name were
also involved in this crime. That's important because if any
of that's true, what that means is that there was
an organized sexual abuse ring. Now, this is something that
(22:32):
you know, we hear thrown around a lot in conspiracy circles.
But one of the most troubling things about these sorts
of allegations is that every so often they end up
being at least partially true. And this is something that
people from across the spectrum have been saying was going
on in the Vatican for a long long time, you
(22:52):
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, at the very least, we have hard proof of
systematic cover ups of sectional abuse by priests and members
high level members of the clergy in the Vatican, you know,
to take it to the next level of organized sex
abuse ring doesn't feel like much of a jump to
(23:15):
me personally. You know, people may differ on that, but
it's certainly the cover up is essentially the same thing
as advocating or protecting that kind of behavior. So why
would it be such a you know, suspension disbelief to
think that there's a step further and actually orchestrating that,
(23:37):
especially for people that are very privileged and used to
being able to order people around and get everything they
want and be weighted on hand and foot.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
You know, yes, but we also have the words here
from an archivist at the Vatican, Monsignor Simeo and Duca,
who in twenty sixteen backed up the claims of our
friendly neighborhood exorcist Gabriel. He cited quote credible information that
(24:06):
quote certain factions inside the Vatican's diplomatic Corps were involved
in procuring young adolescent girls for sexual slavery. And this
this gentleman, mon Signor Duca. He also believed that Orlandi
was abducted for that purpose, and he believed that she
was killed when I guess she had. It's terrible to
(24:29):
think about it this in this way, but when she
was no longer innocent in the way that perhaps the
people that were doing this wanted.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a terrifying and very grim allegation.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
One thing that's interesting about both Duka and Amors statements
is that they're inherently drawing a line to geopolitics and
also to the halls of power to intelligence agencies. I mean,
that's ultimately where that rabbit hole leads. And it also
(25:10):
jibes with ongoing, ongoing allegations like decades and decades old
allegations that certain factions of intelligence agencies have coerced people
into these heinous acts of child abuse in order to
ensure their loyalty. You know, it reminds likes as out
(25:32):
there in Black Mirror esque or Dan brownish as it
might sound, these possibilities are less implausible than they might seem.
So you know the scariest thing about this allegation is
that you can't immediately throw it out, you know what
I mean, It's close enough to things that we know
(25:55):
to be true that it bears it bears serious consideration.
Even if even if you know that headline might sound
all red Meatian alarmists. That story doesn't come from you know,
thin air. There's a vast, a vast trove of precedent
behind there, and you know this, the thread of this continues.
(26:22):
In twenty seventeen, an Italian journalist named Elmiano Fittipaldi and
apologies for my Italian pronunciation here, folks. This journalist was
given a leaked document that appeared to be from the
Vatican and it was listing expenses for the care of
Emmanuela or Landy abroad. It included things like room and board,
(26:46):
as well as guidancological examinations. Now, when I say appeared
to be a Vatican document, we're being careful with our
language there, because the Vatican one percent vehemently denied that
this document was legit. They called it a false, ridiculous reconstruction.
(27:08):
And you know, I'm still kind of stuck on the
allegations of an organized abuse ring. It makes me, it
makes me think back when we're talking with Dan, with
Dan Harmon and he actually changed my mind about whether
large scale conspiracies were popular were possible. Do you remember that?
(27:28):
And he's like, look, maybe they'll just tell you can
be in with us.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
But you have to eat this baby, right, Yeah, yeah,
I mean it's compromised, right. But when people are compromised, uh,
it's a lot easier to control them.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And this brings us to another potential lead, one that
we will address in full. After a brief word from
our sponsor, and we're back. It's time to introduce a
character known as Cardinal Ugo Paletti.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yes, and to discuss Cardinal Pilletti, we have to jump
to two thousand and five when there was a television
program called Who Has Seen? And on that program there
was an anonymous caller who alleged that Emmanuela had been
seized at the behest of someone Cardinal Ugo Pilletti, who
(28:25):
in nineteen eighty three was Vicar General of Rome. This
anonymous caller said, quote on the matter of Emanuela or Landy.
To find a solution to the case, go see who
is buried in the crypt at Saint Apollinaire, Basilica, and
about the favor that Renatino did for Cardinal Pilletti at
the time.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The caller also heavily implies that the motive behind the kidnapping,
which they thought it was and the later burial, was
its health, sexual in nature. Now, Cardinal Pilletti passed away,
so we can't get an official statement from him at
(29:09):
this point, but we do know a few more things
about him. We know that back in nineteen ninety he
is the person who greenlit the removal of Dipettus's body
and it's reinterment in the Basilica. This basilica, again is
usually reserved for the burial of senior clerics, not mafio
(29:34):
so crime bosses. And this is also like we learned
about Polletti because of these documents sent to us by
our source. We want to be completely fair here. A
lot of this is in English, a lot of it's
in Italian, and we have not been able to verify
(29:55):
the authenticity of what we were sent, but it's got
some damning stuff in it.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
If it's true, yeah, completely. A lot of it appears
to be some kind of transcript of a conversation where
the concept of Pialetti being I don't know that there's
some language that's really kind of vague. He's referred to
as having certain like proclivities kind of you know, I
(30:21):
think the implication being that he likes young girls. There's
also a discussion of hiring kind of high class call
girls as well thrown around in there. But it's not
clear to me, And I did ask the listener to
clarify and to maybe help with some translations, but haven't
heard back since the initial you know, kind of document dump.
(30:46):
I'm not quite sure who's meant to be speaking in these,
but like you said, Ben, it is it is quite damning.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So let's let's talk about the implications here. We'd already
gone over someone who was very in that basilica, right,
or mafio so fellow de Pettus and or de Petty,
however you say it. And this tip that came through
in two thousand and five is referencing a move that
(31:14):
occurred in nineteen ninety, which is the year that the
mafia fellow de Pettus was killed. Correct, And the burial
like who is buried? That's the thing here, Who is
buried there in the basilica at Santa Paulinair They did
find dozens of sets of bones when they did end
(31:37):
up incurring or looking at the tomb in twenty thirteen,
So it all it gets a little confusing here, but
essentially it's this person would allegedly be is allegedly saying
that this cardinal had this person killed Emmanuela and then
(31:58):
her bones perhaps moved around to different burial places. It's
pretty odd, but again, we did find a bunch of bones,
and we're going to keep going on here. We're going
to learn what officially from the Vatican at least, who
those bones were, or how old they were at least,
And this is just something to quickly clarify here. In
(32:20):
that quote that we read earlier about on the matter
of Emmanuela or Landy, it's referenced a name is referenced, Renatino.
That name is referring back to de Pettus, the mafia
boss that we mentioned earlier there, who is in fact
buried at the Saint Apaullinaire Basilica. So basically, what was
(32:42):
being alleged here in all of this discussion was that
perhaps Renatino or de Pettus the mobster, did a favor
for Cardinal Pilletti, and then Pilletti in turn did a
favor for Renatino, or for some other reason to obfuscate
(33:03):
other bones or the burial of other, you know, people
who were killed, had Renattino moved to that basilica from
where he was first interreed perhaps, I think, is that correct, Ben.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, that's about the size of it. The allegation is
that it was a quid pro quo situation. Oh. When
this source first reached out to me, and I believe
to you as well, Noul, one of the first things
I did was capture images of what this source sent
so I could share it and get us all in
the loop on email instead of me just like telling like,
(33:39):
that's the thing with this stuff, we can't really verify it.
That's an important point. You know, I may at the beginning,
but I want to underline that still, if any of
this stuff is.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
True, it is.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
That's fascinating. And we're following up with this source to
see what we can learn about the provinces of the
stuff we found here, to see what we can learn
about the what they see as the latest developments or
unfolding developments. But this paints a picture of Cardinal Ugo
(34:13):
Polletti as sort of a known predator and indeed a satist.
There's an interesting line where they say he was known
for these weaknesses of his as the euphemistically called them,
and that people also knew he was therefore easy to blackmail,
(34:35):
because like the intelligence agency hunting traps we mentioned earlier,
there was you know, there was a way to get
leverage on this person. He was apparently pretty ruthless. Definitely
in the political sphere. I mean, you think that politics
in your country get nasty, imagine what goes on in
(34:55):
the halls of the Vatican right where people are jockeying
for position in one of the most powerful institutions in
the world. So Pledti played the game well. He was
able to make the right connections apply pressure, but he
was also due to his alleged activities, he was also
(35:16):
easy to pressure himself because you want to keep these
these kind of despicable actions, you want to keep them secret.
So there's this allegation that in nineteen eighty nine the
Judiciary of Italy, a Vatican had names of companies that
own these phone numbers, and the administrators of these phone
(35:38):
numbers were linked to the mafia. They were under their control,
and the recordings that were gleaned from these phone numbers
paint the picture of an organization that is participating in
human trafficking, providing women and children to their quote high
ranking friends. Essentially that it's a vast network of of
(36:04):
forced sex work and it caters to the elite. That's
that's again, that's what these documents are saying.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
It's terrible that, you know, it's terrible that we can't
verify this stuff. It would be amazing if we could
just come out and say, hey, look, this has been confirmed.
There's action that could be taken now. But we have
to caution anyone who's listening to not think of that
as fact because we cannot verify any of that stuff
(36:37):
as of this moment.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
No, we can't, and and you know, just to clarify
to our our source has somewhat clarified that these transcripts
that we're discussing were interviews carried out by this individual
and a team. But this person is not willing to
share the identities of any of the any of the interviewees.
(37:03):
So even if there are accusations being made that are
very inflammatory and damning, like this stuff about potentially hiring
sex workers and this notion of Pilletti's kind of proclivities
and also uh ties to underworld organizations and mob ties,
we don't have the context of understanding who the speaker is. Understandably,
(37:23):
this individual wants to protect their sources because they're afraid
that they could actually be in harm's way because of
the power of of of the Vatican. And again we
we we are not personally as a show accusing anyone
individually about this, but it's hard to you know, you can't,
we can't just gloss over getting this information. It's it's
(37:46):
definitely seems like this is a serious amount of work
has gone into this project on this individual side, but
we were not able to confirm, you know, any of
this stuff, and because we don't have the information to
be able to do that, because we don't even know
who's talking. But I think it's worth mentioning. And in
the most recent exchange with with Ben and I, there's
(38:11):
a mention that Polletti, you know, had ties to to
the underworld and to underworld organizations one this person mentioned
called the Red Brigades UH and the NRA. These are
terrorists sects, is what this person mentions. And the n
our Nar was responsible for a massacre, the Bologna massacre
(38:33):
that killed eighty five people and injured more than two hundred.
But again it's it's it's very difficult to I'm not
quite sure what this person is, what their angle. Is
Is it that the terrorist you know angle is more accurate,
that the crime boss angle is more accurate the sex
ring angle. It's very difficult to say, and I'm trying
(38:55):
to We're trying to find out, but it's it's it's
hard to to kind of pin it down to one
particular source. But it certainly does seem like there was
some foul play going on. There's also implications that Paletti
himself was murdered because of, you know, knowing too much
and being able to kind of spill the beans after
he retired.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Right, Paletti officially died of a heart attack in nineteen
ninety seven. However, you know, there's plenty of precedent for
a homicide by what appears to be a heart attack.
And then also, if we're going to be if we're
going to completely apply critical thinking here, we have to
remember that cause of death is ultimately the decision of
(39:37):
a medical examiner. God knows, there are conspiracy theories of
plenty about willfully fallacious medical examinations on bodies, right tail
as old as time. This isn't over right, There was
another tomb search, an entirely different tomb, back in twenty nineteen,
(39:58):
the Orlandi family received an anonymous tip, a brief letter
that was sent to the Orlandi's lawyer from inside the Vatican,
and it's pretty cryptic. It shows a stone angel at
an unmarked tomb in the Teutonic Cemetery. This is a
cemetary that is within the walls of the Vatican. The
(40:19):
cemetery isn't even accessible to the general public. But on
this unmarked tomb, someone has kept a red votive candle
lit only at this tomb, only this specific one, and
they've been replacing the flowers on a regular basis. There's
one thing engraved on a marble scroll that the angel
(40:42):
the statuary holds and it just says the English version
would be rest in peace. This letter and this cryptic picture,
of course, came at a time when there were bombshell
confirmations of long running allegations about sexual abuse within the
(41:02):
Church and this so part of this is the the timing,
I think. And then this leads to another another decision
by the Vatican to investigate grave sites. I believe this
was in July of last year.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Yeah, July last year, Vatican City decided that they were
going to open up two separate tombs, and they're going
to allow these tombs to be analyzed by forensic anthropologist
Giovanni Arcudi or Arcutie. It's it's really interesting. So the
two tombs, one of them was the tomb of the Angel,
(41:44):
that's the one that was mentioned in that letter. And
then actually part of that letter, doesn't it say something
about where the angel points something to that effect within
that letter referencing the angel's hand. And this one tomb,
the tomb of the Angel, was meant to contain the
remains of two princesses, German princesses, Princess Sophie of Oh
(42:05):
I'm not gonna be able to pronounce this hullinol Woldenburg, Berenstein.
And the adjacent one, the one that was right next
to it, was meant to contain the remains of Duchess
Charlotte Frederica of Mecklenburg Oh Schwerin Schweren. And so check
this out. There were two princesses, German princesses. That's who's
(42:26):
supposed to be in these two tombs that are right
next to each other where this exhumation is going to
take place. They did the exhumations on the eleventh of
July twenty nineteen. Here's the deal. Not only did they
not find the body of IMMANUELA hidden in there, or
you know, they didn't. They don't think they found that body,
(42:47):
they also didn't find the bodies of the two princesses
that were supposed to be buried.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
There seems to be almost a systemic issue with putting
bodies where they belong in at least those two burial sites,
the Basilica and the Teutonic Cemetery.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, just a few days later, they did find some bodies,
not whole bodies, parts of bodies of dozens of individuals.
We're talking thousands of human bones that were found underground
at the Teutonic College where this burial site, where the
tombs are located. So how crazy is that? Okay, we
(43:29):
open these two tombs, those bodies are not there. We
don't find any evidence of the body that was allegedly here,
but we did find dozens of other individuals that we
have no idea of the identities what we did. What
they did find though, is that those bodies were likely
prior to the nineteen hundreds. I believe that's what they
(43:51):
found in this location. This is something that's happened multiple
times over the course of some of these exhumations, where
the person that's meant to be found there is not there,
or is there but with the addition of a bunch
of other bones, some of them very old.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah. Yeah, And to be clear, we're pointing this out,
but we're not saying that those are necessarily related to
the mystery of EMMANUELA or Landy. We have to remember
that the Vatican and the Catholic Church is an ancient institution.
There are a lot of people who have passed away
(44:29):
over the millennia, and this means, you know, if you
think about it from the other side of the equation,
it would be unusual not to find strange, unidentified remains
in a cemetery this old. And at this point the
mystery remains unsolved. However, Noel, I believe you have been
(44:52):
in contact with your source and there's an update.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, just you know, just in going through this together,
just a few questions that I had and I hadn't
heard from this individual since they sent the initial scans,
and just as we're recording this, hearing back and again
because of the fact that I'm not sure if this
person is an investigative journalist or is part of some
(45:17):
kind of organization that's generally trying to like be whistleblowers.
It's really not clear, and they were not comfortable telling
any of that stuff. So's you got to take all
these documents and this perspective for what it's worth. Like
we said earlier, but we had mentioned earlier in the episode,
this crime family or street gang is what this person
(45:39):
is saying. They were the Magliani gang. And I asked
if this person's angle on the story was that there
was organized crime involvement and that that was part of
a sex trafficking operation that Polletti was essentially leading. And
I just wanted to clarify if that was what this
(46:00):
person believes, and they said, yes, I believe it's abundantly
clear that they had relationships with many people of high importance.
They supplied these individuals with girls, drugs, arms, cash, and more.
They knew full well that they would never be prosecuted
for their crimes as they held in their hands the
reputations of those who did the judging. And then I
(46:22):
asked to clarify about the sex trafficking angle, this notion
of a sex trafficking ring and I believe referring to
the Magliani gang, this individual says they rose to power
in the seventies mostly through drug pushing, lotto machine sales, robberies,
and occasional assassination. As for the sex trafficking, most definitely,
Pilletti was allegedly using the convent as a cover for trafficking.
(46:46):
A representatives would bring random girls to the convent. After
a few weeks, other high officials would come to collect them.
From there, they would assumedly be brought to the Vatican
or the neighborhood which surrounded it. And this person believes
that sometimes after the kidnapping or landy may have been
brought to that convent, which was called the Handmade Sisters
(47:06):
of the Immaculate.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Wow, well that's a lot to take in, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I know, and I off Mike. We talked about whether
it was even worth mentioning this because it is a
lot and it's just impossible to verify. But at the
very least, I think we can take away from this
that there's something unusual about this case, and it's hard
to put It's hard for us to put our fingers
directly on it, but organizations like the Vatican that have
(47:34):
been around for so long and literally have a whole
city of which they control, you know, and not to
mention an entire you know, religious mass. You know, this
is huge. I mean, everyone just feels that they are
essentially can do no wrong, even though we know they
can do wrong and have and there's been verified cases
(47:56):
of this with the sex abuse obviously, so I just
thought it was worth mentioning this person's perspective. And there
are documents that do seem to have an air of
legitimacy to them, but that's about as far as we
can take that.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Well, what we do know that there is a light
at the end of this tunnel, though dim it may
be because we do know that Emmanuela's brother that we
mentioned at the top of the show about the person
who had a bit of an argument with his sister
before deciding not to give her a ride, right, so
(48:31):
she took the bus, he is not convinced of any
of the I guess official stories that are out there.
He thinks there's something else that's going on. He has
organized an online petition. It's attracted over one hundred thousand supporters,
and the attempt here is to get the Catholic Church
to appeal to the world headquarters of that institution to
(48:54):
get them to reveal everything that the institution knows on
an official level about this disappears. Just whether or not
they comply right is going to be the issue.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Right as of now, at least as far as I know,
the Vatican maintains that it is doing literally everything in
its power to solve this mystery. Of course, Pietro is
not convinced, neither are the more than one hundred thousand
people who signed that petition. And at this point we
(49:29):
hand it to you, fellow conspiracy realists, what do you
think which of these conspiracy theories? Which of these theories really,
if any, seem most plausible. Is this a case of
someone who ran away? Is this a case of someone
who is kidnapped and murdered? And if so, what makes
(49:49):
you ascribe to a particular perspective. Let us know. You
can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram,
you can find us on Twitter. We especially love to
shout out our Facebook community page. Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Yes, join us there to talk about each of these episodes,
this one in particular. I guarantee you there will be
a lot of us talking about theories behind all of
this and posting things, so join us there. If you
don't want to do that, give us a phone call.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. Again,
I've been talking to a lot of you. I've been
(50:24):
listening to a lot of messages. I've still got about
fifty to go through and I'll be doing that tonight,
but then we'll be caught up, so we're gonna need
more calls, So please call in with your thoughts on
this and any other topic you'd like us to cover
in the future.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
And if done of that quite bags are badgers. You
can always contact us directly via our good old fashioned email.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow conspiracy realist. It's June twenty second, nineteen eighty three.
We're in Vatican City where a fifteen year old resident
named Emanuela or Landy disappears. Do you guys remember this
one very much too?
Speaker 2 (00:14):
And I remember hearing from some listeners who passed on
some very interesting inside information about this story as well.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
Guys, I don't remember a ton about this specific thing.
I'm really excited to re listen.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
Especially given that three years after we initially recorded this
episode in twenty twenty, the case was reopened.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
Yeah, one hundred percent. Then, remembering back, there definitely was
one particular listener that sent us some very remarkable documents
and images related to this, and I believe we talk
about that in the episode. So why don't we take
a word from our sponsor really quickly, and then we'll
jump right into this classic episode on what happened to
Emmanuela or Landy.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
A production of IHEARTRADI, Hello, welcome back to the show.
My name is Matt my name is Noah.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
They call me Ben. We are joined as always with
our super producer Paul, Mission Control decand most importantly, you
are here and that makes this stuff they don't want
you to know, coming to you live and direct. Yet
again we're your favorite Quentin Quarantinos. We're still keeping the
lights on in our separate bunkers here. Just wanted to
(01:49):
check in with everybody real quick before we dive in.
How are you today?
Speaker 3 (01:53):
I'm really good. Over the weekend, I spent some time
digging through our voicemail archive and everybody that's been calling
in and got to talk with several of you you
listening right now. Speaking to you, I've been instructed to
say the word divination to prove to one person that
(02:14):
I called that it was real. So there you have it.
I would just say everyone out there that I've spoken to,
and a lot of people that have been calling in,
you know, we're all still dealing with this thing. A
lot of you are doing great work to continue both
the economy and the health of others of us who
are listening and present today. So thank you to all
(02:36):
of you. Just keep doing what you're doing, especially you
truckers who are out there are still going every day.
You healthcare workers who are going every day, essential workers
in the grocery stores who are going every day and
putting yourselves at risk. Big props to you guys.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
Well said, what about you, Nol, how's it going?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Oh it's good. I had a really nice weekend. I
made tied ie shirts with my daughter. You know, proof
positive that the madness is really starting to take hold,
because that's a thing I never would have done before.
But you know what, it turns out I really like
it and it's you get some really nice results. We
tried two different methods. There's the twist method where you
(03:19):
put rubber bands around it like a braid of a
giant ponytail, like a French braid. And there's not one
where you can just bunch it up and put the
rubber bands around the wad and.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
The results are really delightful.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
I think I'm a tie die guy. Now.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Good to you here, And of course you can find
some of those results on our very social media, which
we will shout out either during this show or at
the end.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Yeah, mine's at how now Noel Brown? If you want
to check it out, Ben, what have you been up to.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
All sorts of things. You know, they're really deep into
a really really deep into a strange web. That is
the subject of today's show. This is something that I
think is familiar to a lot of our fellow conspiracy realists.
It's a mystery, it's a disappearance. And you know, of course,
(04:10):
if we are being realistic, which we must be, the
sad truth of the world is that thousands of people
disappear every day, even now in twenty twenty, as the
surveillance state grows stronger than it ever has been before. Yet,
of all those disappearances, this case has always stood out
for us, for me, for you, Matt, you know, and
(04:32):
particularly for Paul Michigan Control Decat himself. Recently, we received
several partially redacted records from a source that prefers to
remain anonymous, and this prompted us to finally dive in
to one of the most mystifying disappearances in modern history.
Today we are asking what exactly happened to EMMANUELA or
(04:56):
Landing a quick bit of house keeping here. First, our
source that decided to remain anonymous or preferred that way.
When this source sent us these documents, we circulated them
amid ourselves. We haven't shared them anywhere and we're don't.
(05:17):
I don't know if we should, honestly, but we'll get
into that. And Secondly, as we like to say, at
the top of every particularly darker violent episode, there is
content in today's show that may be triggering to some people.
We will be talking about the allegations of sexual abuse,
(05:39):
we will be talking about murder, and there will be
scenes of violence, so we want to put that up
there at the top. Now, we have to do some
background for everybody who thinks Emmanuela or Landy, who is that?
Did you say Orlando, No, we said or Landy. And
let's learn a little bit about our main character. Here
(06:04):
here are the facts.
Speaker 2 (06:05):
Yes, Emmanuela or Landi was born in nineteen sixty eight,
one of five children, and according to records, her father
worked either at the Vatican Bank or was actually a
member of the staff in the papal household. According to
Emmanuela's older brother Pietro, the family lived inside Vatican City
(06:29):
and would often they grew up feeling as though the
Vatican gardens, which are lush and gorgeous, was their own backyard.
That's according to him, and he's been a very outspoken
person in the press about this story. In nineteen eighty three,
Emanuela was a sophomore in high school. The school year
had ended for the summer, and she was taking flute
(06:50):
lessons nearby at a music school, at the Tomaso Ludovico
Victoria School, and she was into music. She sang in
the choir, played the flute, and seemed to have a
real gift for just picking up instruments.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Yeah, I was on the twenty second of June in
that year, nineteen eighty three when she disappeared, and we
don't know much, but this is what we do now.
She left a family apartment. She was wearing a white
T shirt. She had on denim overalls and running shoes.
She got onto a bus and she traveled a pretty
(07:28):
short distance, only about two kilometers. She got off near
the Piazza Navona, and this is right in front of
the Italian Senate. By the way, she was stopped by
a young man in a green BMW. There was a
traffic officer who witnessed this whole scene, just Emmanuela getting
off and speaking to this man in a green BMW.
(07:50):
The Senate security cameras were not working that day though,
so there was no video proof of this.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
Matt, I just want to interject it and put this
in the note. But it's important to note that her brother,
Pietro Orlandi, who's going to play a big role in
this story, he is the reason that she ended up
using public transit. According to what we know, she asked
him for a ride to the flute lesson and he
(08:18):
refused for one reason or another, So that's why she
ended up on the bus.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
Yeah. He is stated several times over the course of
all these years that they got into a fight a
row and that's why they decided not to go that route.
Right for him taking her there, but she did end
up going to her flute class or music class as
she normally would have. She did call her sister after
(08:45):
that class had completed, and that phone call was the
last known contact that anyone ever had with Emmanuela, at
least the last known contact to the family and to investigators. Right.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
Yes, she had made plans with her sister to meet
at a piazza at seven point thirty pm, and that
is where her trail ends. She was reported a missing
person the next day. Also, want to bust a myth.
Here in most countries, you do not have to wait
twenty four hours to report someone missing. That's a story
(09:22):
the television has told us. If you have reasonable cause
to believe someone has gone missing, go ahead and report
them because every hour, every second counts, so the investigation begins.
The next day. Tips start rolling in. Some are much
more promising or seem much more solid than others, to
(09:43):
tips in particular capture the investigator's attention. There's one caller
who refers to himself as Pierre Luigi. He makes a
call on June twenty fifth, and he says, I've seen
this child, not in Vatican City. I've seen her earlier
in Rome on the day of her disappearance, and he
(10:05):
provided details that made it sound believable to the authorities.
He mentioned that she had a flute, a flutecase with her.
He described her clothing, which you described earlier, Matt and
his description match. However, he had some interesting things to say.
Pierre Luigi said the girl was not going by the
(10:25):
name Emmanuela. Instead, she was calling herself Barberella, and that
she had run away from home to sell, of all
things products for avon. That's an interesting detail. Too, because
it wasn't something that was out there in the public sphere.
You know, it's pretty common in high profile cases for
(10:46):
authorities to withhold some information because it helps you separate
the wheat from the chaff, believe it or not. In
a lot of missing cases, a lot of suspected homicides,
when authorities asked the public for tips, they get a
lot of really cold hearted pranks where they get some
unstable people making ridiculous claims. So the fact that he
(11:07):
knew about this Avon thing was especially fascinating because it
tracked with information provided by the family Orlandi had mentioned
wanting to sell Avon products earlier to her sister before
her disappearance, which is something a lot of people did
not know.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
So a second call came just a couple of days later,
on June twenty eighth, another man claimed to have met
a young woman going by Barbara who had also run
away from home, and this caller said that he had
seen her in a bar nearby the music school and
you know, calling herself Barbara. There were several other tips.
(11:47):
Some caller speculated that there was a conspiracy afoot. A
Turkish terrorist group called the Gray Wolves, allegedly had planned
to kidnap or Landy allegedly then exchange her for one
of their members, sort of a political prisoner swap situation,
a memet ali Agka.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
It would be.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Assassin who'd been imprisoned for shooting the pope two years earlier.
So what where did it go from there?
Speaker 1 (12:17):
Oh, devil coins, that's where it went. And we shall
also mentioned that second caller also said the young woman
who was calling herself Barbara had run away from home.
So they have those commonalities, and we have a great story.
It's not really ours to tell. It is a story
from our good friend, writer Die Paul mission controlled decad
(12:37):
about fascinating coins that were allegedly discovered during the as
the attempted assassination of the pope. That's a story for
another day. But there's the door to the Google rabbit hole.
If you want to get lost over the week, you're
you're asking a vital question, Noel, what did happen? There's
(12:59):
no shortage of intriguing, compelling, tantalizing that would be the
right word, tantalizing theories surrounding Orlandy's disappearance and at this
stage her presumed death. You know, the Turkish terrorist group
that's just scratching the surface. We have to remember the
(13:19):
Vatican and the surrounding region is a hub of religious power,
and it's a hub of mafia power. It's a hub
of organized crime, and these groups often come under suspicion
in the world of conspiracy. I meant the Vatican City
itself is a very very weird place. Let's see the
(13:41):
age of consent for a long time, I think was
twelve years old. It's also the only place where you
can find an atm in Latin. Just so these aren't
all horrible quick facts. And it also wields this outsize,
tremendous influence on human civilization, and it has for centuries
(14:03):
and centuries.
Speaker 4 (14:04):
You know, the.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Nexus of powerful religious organization, of incredibly powerful godlike financial institutions,
and criminal organizations. It all comes to a head here
in a very real way. You could say it's even
more powerful than the City of London, which longtime listeners
(14:29):
you'll recall is not actually London. It's just in London,
and it's called the City of London. It is a
very confusing time for names because Vatican City it's called
a city, and it is a city, but it's a state,
and it's an uber state, and it's beyond a lot
of laws that would apply to Jane and John does
(14:49):
like us and the people listening, unless you're listening and
you're the pope, in which case thanks for checking in.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Man.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
It is very odd to imagine Vaticans City as a
religious monarchy. That is just a strange that's a strange thing.
There are so few places that exist in twenty twenty
that are full on monarchies, you know, without a parliament
(15:18):
connected in some way, or without a secondary governmental institution
attached in some way. I'm not saying they don't exist.
They are. Certainly, they're certainly, I guess a dozen or
so dozens, let's say, But just to have the amount
of wealth and power that they have, it's pretty strange
(15:40):
to see it both together.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
And it's so weird to talk about this case because
you know, if you picture this episode and this exploration
as us walking through an art gallery in a hallway,
we're passing this gigantic mural that says Vatican Conspiracies, and
we're kind of pointing at it for you. But it's
not the part of this episode that we're going to
(16:04):
focus on. You can find our earlier videos on this.
You can find some earlier podcasts we've done. But it
goes very very deep and a disturbing amount of the
things that are treated as conspiracy theories about the Vatican
have later turned out to be at least partially true.
This is reality, and given this reality, it's no surprise
then that the Vatican is the subject of so many
(16:27):
conspiracy theories. And like the leads in the Orlandic case,
some of these theories are way more plausible than others.
I think it's this inherent strangeness of Vatican City and
this bizarre, tragic disappearance of this fifteen year old girl
that combined to make this such a mystifying mystery. And
(16:50):
you know, this is just context for the question we
asked earlier. Will pause for a word from our sponsors
and return to ask what happened? And to EMMANUELA or Lande,
here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, decades later, this mystery is still just that a mystery.
It is unsolved, though there are plenty of theories, as
tends to be the case when you have cold cases
like this. We had talked about the gray wolves, but
what about that other organization that seems to thrive so
(17:32):
readily in Vatican City, the mafia. Mafia theories largely revolve
around a Rome based syndicate, a crime syndicate known as
the Banda de la Magliana led by Enrico de Pedis.
The theory states that the syndicate had loaned large sums
(17:53):
of money to the Vatican Bank, but weren't getting their
payments as quickly as they would have liked at all,
they weren't being paid back what they were owed, so
they decided that taking a Vatican official's daughter for ransom
was the way to get their money back, and one
of de Pettus's former girlfriends claimed on the record that
(18:15):
her ex told her he had kidnapped or Landy, and
these claims were plausible enough that the authorities decided to
get involved.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, you know. Depettus himself, like many mafioso, had a
live by the sword, die by the sword situation. He
was fatally shot in a square in Rome back in
nineteen ninety, and years later after his death, an investigative
journalist found out that Depettus's body had been very very
(18:49):
quietly moved from a normal cemetery to the prestigious Basilica
sant Apaullinaire. This is interesting because this Basilican Britis is
not It's like a very exclusive club for corpses, if
you want to be crass about it. This is not
(19:09):
where ordinary people are buried. This is the eternal parking
spot for the bodies of cardinals and princes and other
illustrious members of society, Vatican and lay people alike. So
it's odd that a very successful criminal would end up
(19:30):
first off buried somewhere else and then for some reason
have his body moved posthumously to a different site. People
were freaking out, and so in twenty thirteen, like you're
saying no from some of the leads, they got the
authorities actually decided that they would open the tomb of
(19:51):
this mobster, and they wanted to see whether the rumors
were true, whether it was in fact the case that
Weella Orlandi was dead and that her remains were secretly
placed inside the tomb of Dippetus.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
Which does seem on the surface like it would be
a little odd.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
Right.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
He was killed in nineteen ninety, she's been missing since
nineteen eighty three. That would mean seven years of waiting
until you intererred her into a tomb, just if he
was if she was put into his original resting place, right,
and then after he got moved, there were a lot
of big, you know, what ifs, But there was rumor
(20:35):
and there was you know, possibility, So it was looked into.
And when they did open it up, they found more
than they bargained for. Right, his body was there. It
was a very nice sarcophagus in which he was placed.
He was well preserved. He had a dark blue suit
and a black tie. They took fingerprints from his body.
(20:58):
They confirmed his identity. But they also found this other
thing talked away inside this ancient crypt where he was buried.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
That's right. They found not just one person's remains, but
multiple remains. There were dozens of boxes that held unidentified
human bones, you know. So they went looking for one
secret corpse and they found multiple remains. And then this
(21:29):
is this here's where the plot gets even trickier. Around
the same time they said this was twenty thirteen, right,
so roughly around the same time, a returning guest of
sorts to our show, the infamous Vatican exorcist, Gabrielle Amorth,
claimed that EMMANUELA or Landy did not run away and
(21:50):
claimed instead that she was kidnapped by a member of
none other than the Vatican Police Force. He said that
she was kidnapped for the purpose of being abused at
sex parties for lack of a better term, and then
that she would be murdered. After that, he said she
had already died. He also alleged, and this is public too,
(22:11):
It's been reported in multiple sources, he also alleged that
officials of a foreign embassy they did not name were
also involved in this crime. That's important because if any
of that's true, what that means is that there was
an organized sexual abuse ring. Now, this is something that
(22:32):
you know, we hear thrown around a lot in conspiracy circles.
But one of the most troubling things about these sorts
of allegations is that every so often they end up
being at least partially true. And this is something that
people from across the spectrum have been saying was going
on in the Vatican for a long long time, you
(22:52):
know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, at the very least, we have hard proof of
systematic cover ups of sectional abuse by priests and members
high level members of the clergy in the Vatican, you know,
to take it to the next level of organized sex
abuse ring doesn't feel like much of a jump to
(23:15):
me personally. You know, people may differ on that, but
it's certainly the cover up is essentially the same thing
as advocating or protecting that kind of behavior. So why
would it be such a you know, suspension disbelief to
think that there's a step further and actually orchestrating that,
(23:37):
especially for people that are very privileged and used to
being able to order people around and get everything they
want and be weighted on hand and foot.
Speaker 3 (23:44):
You know, yes, but we also have the words here
from an archivist at the Vatican, Monsignor Simeo and Duca,
who in twenty sixteen backed up the claims of our
friendly neighborhood exorcist Gabriel. He cited quote credible information that
(24:06):
quote certain factions inside the Vatican's diplomatic Corps were involved
in procuring young adolescent girls for sexual slavery. And this
this gentleman, mon Signor Duca. He also believed that Orlandi
was abducted for that purpose, and he believed that she
was killed when I guess she had. It's terrible to
(24:29):
think about it this in this way, but when she
was no longer innocent in the way that perhaps the
people that were doing this wanted.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a it's a terrifying and very grim allegation.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
One thing that's interesting about both Duka and Amors statements
is that they're inherently drawing a line to geopolitics and
also to the halls of power to intelligence agencies. I mean,
that's ultimately where that rabbit hole leads. And it also
(25:10):
jibes with ongoing, ongoing allegations like decades and decades old
allegations that certain factions of intelligence agencies have coerced people
into these heinous acts of child abuse in order to
ensure their loyalty. You know, it reminds likes as out
(25:32):
there in Black Mirror esque or Dan brownish as it
might sound, these possibilities are less implausible than they might seem.
So you know the scariest thing about this allegation is
that you can't immediately throw it out, you know what
I mean, It's close enough to things that we know
(25:55):
to be true that it bears it bears serious consideration.
Even if even if you know that headline might sound
all red Meatian alarmists. That story doesn't come from you know,
thin air. There's a vast, a vast trove of precedent
behind there, and you know this, the thread of this continues.
(26:22):
In twenty seventeen, an Italian journalist named Elmiano Fittipaldi and
apologies for my Italian pronunciation here, folks. This journalist was
given a leaked document that appeared to be from the
Vatican and it was listing expenses for the care of
Emmanuela or Landy abroad. It included things like room and board,
(26:46):
as well as guidancological examinations. Now, when I say appeared
to be a Vatican document, we're being careful with our
language there, because the Vatican one percent vehemently denied that
this document was legit. They called it a false, ridiculous reconstruction.
(27:08):
And you know, I'm still kind of stuck on the
allegations of an organized abuse ring. It makes me, it
makes me think back when we're talking with Dan, with
Dan Harmon and he actually changed my mind about whether
large scale conspiracies were popular were possible. Do you remember that?
(27:28):
And he's like, look, maybe they'll just tell you can
be in with us.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
But you have to eat this baby, right, Yeah, yeah,
I mean it's compromised, right. But when people are compromised, uh,
it's a lot easier to control them.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
And this brings us to another potential lead, one that
we will address in full. After a brief word from
our sponsor, and we're back. It's time to introduce a
character known as Cardinal Ugo Paletti.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yes, and to discuss Cardinal Pilletti, we have to jump
to two thousand and five when there was a television
program called Who Has Seen? And on that program there
was an anonymous caller who alleged that Emmanuela had been
seized at the behest of someone Cardinal Ugo Pilletti, who
(28:25):
in nineteen eighty three was Vicar General of Rome. This
anonymous caller said, quote on the matter of Emanuela or Landy.
To find a solution to the case, go see who
is buried in the crypt at Saint Apollinaire, Basilica, and
about the favor that Renatino did for Cardinal Pilletti at
the time.
Speaker 4 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
The caller also heavily implies that the motive behind the kidnapping,
which they thought it was and the later burial, was
its health, sexual in nature. Now, Cardinal Pilletti passed away,
so we can't get an official statement from him at
(29:09):
this point, but we do know a few more things
about him. We know that back in nineteen ninety he
is the person who greenlit the removal of Dipettus's body
and it's reinterment in the Basilica. This basilica, again is
usually reserved for the burial of senior clerics, not mafio
(29:34):
so crime bosses. And this is also like we learned
about Polletti because of these documents sent to us by
our source. We want to be completely fair here. A
lot of this is in English, a lot of it's
in Italian, and we have not been able to verify
(29:55):
the authenticity of what we were sent, but it's got
some damning stuff in it.
Speaker 2 (30:00):
If it's true, yeah, completely. A lot of it appears
to be some kind of transcript of a conversation where
the concept of Pialetti being I don't know that there's
some language that's really kind of vague. He's referred to
as having certain like proclivities kind of you know, I
(30:21):
think the implication being that he likes young girls. There's
also a discussion of hiring kind of high class call
girls as well thrown around in there. But it's not
clear to me, And I did ask the listener to
clarify and to maybe help with some translations, but haven't
heard back since the initial you know, kind of document dump.
(30:46):
I'm not quite sure who's meant to be speaking in these,
but like you said, Ben, it is it is quite damning.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
So let's let's talk about the implications here. We'd already
gone over someone who was very in that basilica, right,
or mafio so fellow de Pettus and or de Petty,
however you say it. And this tip that came through
in two thousand and five is referencing a move that
(31:14):
occurred in nineteen ninety, which is the year that the
mafia fellow de Pettus was killed. Correct, And the burial
like who is buried? That's the thing here, Who is
buried there in the basilica at Santa Paulinair They did
find dozens of sets of bones when they did end
(31:37):
up incurring or looking at the tomb in twenty thirteen,
So it all it gets a little confusing here, but
essentially it's this person would allegedly be is allegedly saying
that this cardinal had this person killed Emmanuela and then
(31:58):
her bones perhaps moved around to different burial places. It's
pretty odd, but again, we did find a bunch of bones,
and we're going to keep going on here. We're going
to learn what officially from the Vatican at least, who
those bones were, or how old they were at least,
And this is just something to quickly clarify here. In
(32:20):
that quote that we read earlier about on the matter
of Emmanuela or Landy, it's referenced a name is referenced, Renatino.
That name is referring back to de Pettus, the mafia
boss that we mentioned earlier there, who is in fact
buried at the Saint Apaullinaire Basilica. So basically, what was
(32:42):
being alleged here in all of this discussion was that
perhaps Renatino or de Pettus the mobster, did a favor
for Cardinal Pilletti, and then Pilletti in turn did a
favor for Renatino, or for some other reason to obfuscate
(33:03):
other bones or the burial of other, you know, people
who were killed, had Renattino moved to that basilica from
where he was first interreed perhaps, I think, is that correct, Ben.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Yeah, that's about the size of it. The allegation is
that it was a quid pro quo situation. Oh. When
this source first reached out to me, and I believe
to you as well, Noul, one of the first things
I did was capture images of what this source sent
so I could share it and get us all in
the loop on email instead of me just like telling like,
(33:39):
that's the thing with this stuff, we can't really verify it.
That's an important point. You know, I may at the beginning,
but I want to underline that still, if any of
this stuff is.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
True, it is.
Speaker 1 (33:52):
That's fascinating. And we're following up with this source to
see what we can learn about the provinces of the
stuff we found here, to see what we can learn
about the what they see as the latest developments or
unfolding developments. But this paints a picture of Cardinal Ugo
(34:13):
Polletti as sort of a known predator and indeed a satist.
There's an interesting line where they say he was known
for these weaknesses of his as the euphemistically called them,
and that people also knew he was therefore easy to blackmail,
(34:35):
because like the intelligence agency hunting traps we mentioned earlier,
there was you know, there was a way to get
leverage on this person. He was apparently pretty ruthless. Definitely
in the political sphere. I mean, you think that politics
in your country get nasty, imagine what goes on in
(34:55):
the halls of the Vatican right where people are jockeying
for position in one of the most powerful institutions in
the world. So Pledti played the game well. He was
able to make the right connections apply pressure, but he
was also due to his alleged activities, he was also
(35:16):
easy to pressure himself because you want to keep these
these kind of despicable actions, you want to keep them secret.
So there's this allegation that in nineteen eighty nine the
Judiciary of Italy, a Vatican had names of companies that
own these phone numbers, and the administrators of these phone
(35:38):
numbers were linked to the mafia. They were under their control,
and the recordings that were gleaned from these phone numbers
paint the picture of an organization that is participating in
human trafficking, providing women and children to their quote high
ranking friends. Essentially that it's a vast network of of
(36:04):
forced sex work and it caters to the elite. That's
that's again, that's what these documents are saying.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
It's terrible that, you know, it's terrible that we can't
verify this stuff. It would be amazing if we could
just come out and say, hey, look, this has been confirmed.
There's action that could be taken now. But we have
to caution anyone who's listening to not think of that
as fact because we cannot verify any of that stuff
(36:37):
as of this moment.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
No, we can't, and and you know, just to clarify
to our our source has somewhat clarified that these transcripts
that we're discussing were interviews carried out by this individual
and a team. But this person is not willing to
share the identities of any of the any of the interviewees.
(37:03):
So even if there are accusations being made that are
very inflammatory and damning, like this stuff about potentially hiring
sex workers and this notion of Pilletti's kind of proclivities
and also uh ties to underworld organizations and mob ties,
we don't have the context of understanding who the speaker is. Understandably,
(37:23):
this individual wants to protect their sources because they're afraid
that they could actually be in harm's way because of
the power of of of the Vatican. And again we
we we are not personally as a show accusing anyone
individually about this, but it's hard to you know, you can't,
we can't just gloss over getting this information. It's it's
(37:46):
definitely seems like this is a serious amount of work
has gone into this project on this individual side, but
we were not able to confirm, you know, any of
this stuff, and because we don't have the information to
be able to do that, because we don't even know
who's talking. But I think it's worth mentioning. And in
the most recent exchange with with Ben and I, there's
(38:11):
a mention that Polletti, you know, had ties to to
the underworld and to underworld organizations one this person mentioned
called the Red Brigades UH and the NRA. These are
terrorists sects, is what this person mentions. And the n
our Nar was responsible for a massacre, the Bologna massacre
(38:33):
that killed eighty five people and injured more than two hundred.
But again it's it's it's very difficult to I'm not
quite sure what this person is, what their angle. Is
Is it that the terrorist you know angle is more accurate,
that the crime boss angle is more accurate the sex
ring angle. It's very difficult to say, and I'm trying
(38:55):
to We're trying to find out, but it's it's it's
hard to to kind of pin it down to one
particular source. But it certainly does seem like there was
some foul play going on. There's also implications that Paletti
himself was murdered because of, you know, knowing too much
and being able to kind of spill the beans after
he retired.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Right, Paletti officially died of a heart attack in nineteen
ninety seven. However, you know, there's plenty of precedent for
a homicide by what appears to be a heart attack.
And then also, if we're going to be if we're
going to completely apply critical thinking here, we have to
remember that cause of death is ultimately the decision of
(39:37):
a medical examiner. God knows, there are conspiracy theories of
plenty about willfully fallacious medical examinations on bodies, right tail
as old as time. This isn't over right, There was
another tomb search, an entirely different tomb, back in twenty nineteen,
(39:58):
the Orlandi family received an anonymous tip, a brief letter
that was sent to the Orlandi's lawyer from inside the Vatican,
and it's pretty cryptic. It shows a stone angel at
an unmarked tomb in the Teutonic Cemetery. This is a
cemetary that is within the walls of the Vatican. The
(40:19):
cemetery isn't even accessible to the general public. But on
this unmarked tomb, someone has kept a red votive candle
lit only at this tomb, only this specific one, and
they've been replacing the flowers on a regular basis. There's
one thing engraved on a marble scroll that the angel
(40:42):
the statuary holds and it just says the English version
would be rest in peace. This letter and this cryptic picture,
of course, came at a time when there were bombshell
confirmations of long running allegations about sexual abuse within the
(41:02):
Church and this so part of this is the the timing,
I think. And then this leads to another another decision
by the Vatican to investigate grave sites. I believe this
was in July of last year.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Yeah, July last year, Vatican City decided that they were
going to open up two separate tombs, and they're going
to allow these tombs to be analyzed by forensic anthropologist
Giovanni Arcudi or Arcutie. It's it's really interesting. So the
two tombs, one of them was the tomb of the Angel,
(41:44):
that's the one that was mentioned in that letter. And
then actually part of that letter, doesn't it say something
about where the angel points something to that effect within
that letter referencing the angel's hand. And this one tomb,
the tomb of the Angel, was meant to contain the
remains of two princesses, German princesses, Princess Sophie of Oh
(42:05):
I'm not gonna be able to pronounce this hullinol Woldenburg, Berenstein.
And the adjacent one, the one that was right next
to it, was meant to contain the remains of Duchess
Charlotte Frederica of Mecklenburg Oh Schwerin Schweren. And so check
this out. There were two princesses, German princesses. That's who's
(42:26):
supposed to be in these two tombs that are right
next to each other where this exhumation is going to
take place. They did the exhumations on the eleventh of
July twenty nineteen. Here's the deal. Not only did they
not find the body of IMMANUELA hidden in there, or
you know, they didn't. They don't think they found that body,
(42:47):
they also didn't find the bodies of the two princesses
that were supposed to be buried.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
There seems to be almost a systemic issue with putting
bodies where they belong in at least those two burial sites,
the Basilica and the Teutonic Cemetery.
Speaker 3 (43:06):
Yeah, just a few days later, they did find some bodies,
not whole bodies, parts of bodies of dozens of individuals.
We're talking thousands of human bones that were found underground
at the Teutonic College where this burial site, where the
tombs are located. So how crazy is that? Okay, we
(43:29):
open these two tombs, those bodies are not there. We
don't find any evidence of the body that was allegedly here,
but we did find dozens of other individuals that we
have no idea of the identities what we did. What
they did find though, is that those bodies were likely
prior to the nineteen hundreds. I believe that's what they
(43:51):
found in this location. This is something that's happened multiple
times over the course of some of these exhumations, where
the person that's meant to be found there is not there,
or is there but with the addition of a bunch
of other bones, some of them very old.
Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah. Yeah, And to be clear, we're pointing this out,
but we're not saying that those are necessarily related to
the mystery of EMMANUELA or Landy. We have to remember
that the Vatican and the Catholic Church is an ancient institution.
There are a lot of people who have passed away
(44:29):
over the millennia, and this means, you know, if you
think about it from the other side of the equation,
it would be unusual not to find strange, unidentified remains
in a cemetery this old. And at this point the
mystery remains unsolved. However, Noel, I believe you have been
(44:52):
in contact with your source and there's an update.
Speaker 2 (44:55):
Yeah, just you know, just in going through this together,
just a few questions that I had and I hadn't
heard from this individual since they sent the initial scans,
and just as we're recording this, hearing back and again
because of the fact that I'm not sure if this
person is an investigative journalist or is part of some
(45:17):
kind of organization that's generally trying to like be whistleblowers.
It's really not clear, and they were not comfortable telling
any of that stuff. So's you got to take all
these documents and this perspective for what it's worth. Like
we said earlier, but we had mentioned earlier in the episode,
this crime family or street gang is what this person
(45:39):
is saying. They were the Magliani gang. And I asked
if this person's angle on the story was that there
was organized crime involvement and that that was part of
a sex trafficking operation that Polletti was essentially leading. And
I just wanted to clarify if that was what this
(46:00):
person believes, and they said, yes, I believe it's abundantly
clear that they had relationships with many people of high importance.
They supplied these individuals with girls, drugs, arms, cash, and more.
They knew full well that they would never be prosecuted
for their crimes as they held in their hands the
reputations of those who did the judging. And then I
(46:22):
asked to clarify about the sex trafficking angle, this notion
of a sex trafficking ring and I believe referring to
the Magliani gang, this individual says they rose to power
in the seventies mostly through drug pushing, lotto machine sales, robberies,
and occasional assassination. As for the sex trafficking, most definitely,
Pilletti was allegedly using the convent as a cover for trafficking.
(46:46):
A representatives would bring random girls to the convent. After
a few weeks, other high officials would come to collect them.
From there, they would assumedly be brought to the Vatican
or the neighborhood which surrounded it. And this person believes
that sometimes after the kidnapping or landy may have been
brought to that convent, which was called the Handmade Sisters
(47:06):
of the Immaculate.
Speaker 3 (47:08):
Wow, well that's a lot to take in, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
I know, and I off Mike. We talked about whether
it was even worth mentioning this because it is a
lot and it's just impossible to verify. But at the
very least, I think we can take away from this
that there's something unusual about this case, and it's hard
to put It's hard for us to put our fingers
directly on it, but organizations like the Vatican that have
(47:34):
been around for so long and literally have a whole
city of which they control, you know, and not to
mention an entire you know, religious mass. You know, this
is huge. I mean, everyone just feels that they are
essentially can do no wrong, even though we know they
can do wrong and have and there's been verified cases
(47:56):
of this with the sex abuse obviously, so I just
thought it was worth mentioning this person's perspective. And there
are documents that do seem to have an air of
legitimacy to them, but that's about as far as we
can take that.
Speaker 3 (48:11):
Well, what we do know that there is a light
at the end of this tunnel, though dim it may
be because we do know that Emmanuela's brother that we
mentioned at the top of the show about the person
who had a bit of an argument with his sister
before deciding not to give her a ride, right, so
(48:31):
she took the bus, he is not convinced of any
of the I guess official stories that are out there.
He thinks there's something else that's going on. He has
organized an online petition. It's attracted over one hundred thousand supporters,
and the attempt here is to get the Catholic Church
to appeal to the world headquarters of that institution to
(48:54):
get them to reveal everything that the institution knows on
an official level about this disappears. Just whether or not
they comply right is going to be the issue.
Speaker 1 (49:08):
Right as of now, at least as far as I know,
the Vatican maintains that it is doing literally everything in
its power to solve this mystery. Of course, Pietro is
not convinced, neither are the more than one hundred thousand
people who signed that petition. And at this point we
(49:29):
hand it to you, fellow conspiracy realists, what do you
think which of these conspiracy theories? Which of these theories really,
if any, seem most plausible. Is this a case of
someone who ran away? Is this a case of someone
who is kidnapped and murdered? And if so, what makes
(49:49):
you ascribe to a particular perspective. Let us know. You
can find us on Facebook, you can find us on Instagram,
you can find us on Twitter. We especially love to
shout out our Facebook community page. Here's where it gets crazy.
Speaker 3 (50:03):
Yes, join us there to talk about each of these episodes,
this one in particular. I guarantee you there will be
a lot of us talking about theories behind all of
this and posting things, so join us there. If you
don't want to do that, give us a phone call.
Our number is one eight three three st d WYTK. Again,
I've been talking to a lot of you. I've been
(50:24):
listening to a lot of messages. I've still got about
fifty to go through and I'll be doing that tonight,
but then we'll be caught up, so we're gonna need
more calls, So please call in with your thoughts on
this and any other topic you'd like us to cover
in the future.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
And if done of that quite bags are badgers. You
can always contact us directly via our good old fashioned email.
Speaker 2 (50:44):
We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 3 (51:06):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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