June 6, 2025 • 64 mins
To some, the Freight Train Riders of America is a vast, secretive criminal network -- deadly ghosts, haunting the country's rails. To others, the FTRA is a loose collection of outcasts doing their best to help each other survive. To still others, the FTRA is nothing more than an urban legend, and never existed at all. In tonight's episode, Ben and Matt dive deep into the hidden world of trainhopping culture, searching for answers to these conspiratorial tales. Be advised this episode may not be appropriate for all audiences.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will return shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Sh Can you hear
it in the distance? That train whistle? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I did hear I heard it?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I heard tell of it. Yes, tonight we are traveling
the rails fellow conspiracy real exploring a hidden history of
the United States, a culture that is often romanticized, vilified,
and above all, perhaps misunderstood. You know, when people hear
words like hobo or vacabond or traveler, dirty kid, hobo especially,
(01:18):
I think for most of the public in the West,
it conjures up this vision of itinerant men, you know,
maybe not with the best sharpest duds, but with dignity
in their faces, holding sticks and bindles amid the great depression,
which is again a terrible name.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, images of human beings looking for work. Right, that's
generally what it's associated.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
With, which is the great differentiator between a hobo, a tramp,
and a bum. Right, And please keep in mind that
for people who historically consider themselves hoboes, calling someone a
bum was an enormous insult. The difference being hobo's travel
looking for work, Tramps travel doing their best to avoid work.
(02:09):
Bums neither travel nor work. And that's that's the idea
of it feels like it's distant history, but we have
to remember the past is always closer than it appears
in the rear view mirror. And the reality is that
train hoppers still exist. According to law enforcement, there's been
a conspiracy of foot So tonight we're going to dive
(02:33):
into this thing that we've been loosely calling Invisible America,
and we're going to ask what is this ft R
A the Freight Trained Writers of America. Is it, as
law enforcement says, a brutal coven of people committed to
organized crime? Is it, as its supporters argue, a loose
(02:55):
collection of communities trying to provide mutual support, Or is
it as some railroad spokespeople say an urban myth that
never existed at all. Here are the facts, Matt. How
(03:16):
would we define train hopping or freight hopping to someone
who's never heard of the concept.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
We call it Hell's Angels, but without bikes. That's that's what.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
That's from police magazine.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's what Police magazine would say. Sorry, No, train hopping
is literally just somebody who is using the three the
thirty thousand miles of rail across the United States and
using it as a way to move around, but not
doing it as you know, a passenger on a train
(03:49):
would if let's say you get on a passenger car,
you pay for a ticket to that kind of thing.
It's hopping on and off of the actual freight cars
that are taking various things, you know, I think everything
from coal to large shipping containers.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, box cars, grainers, fa Lucky you might be able
to hop inside something nicer used by the employees of
the railroad. Yeah, it's called catching out. When you hitch
this ride, do it without permission from the train operators
or employees. This occurs all over the world. It is
illegal in every state in the United States currently, and
(04:30):
it's also dangerous legality aside for a ton of reasons.
There are accidents, drugs, crime, You can be at the
mercy of the weather depending on which car you end
up catching out on, and then there's the ever present
possibility of another rider becoming violent. Also, we got a
note first thank you for the seasoned train hoppers we
(04:53):
talk to in preparation for this episode. A lot of
the folks that we spoke with also that googles, folks
who are new to this lifestyle can be a danger
to themselves and others simply due to their lack of experience.
So no ill intent, it's just again very dangerous. You
have to know what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you learn how to do things by doing them right.
And if you're not with somebody who's essentially a guide
who can show you the ropes at any given moment,
you could be putting yourself and everybody else you're with
in pretty serious and in this case grave danger because
you're on a giant moving train or you're trying to
get onto one or off of one.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Right, and it's a thing that does not currently have
sensors that tell it, oh, someone's trying to jump on
this as it's moving and also, slowing down a train
is very difficult. It's doable. Stopping a train is an
engineering feat. With this in mind, we want to be clear, folks,
(05:56):
we are not expressly condoning this travel. And perhaps more importantly,
this is in no way to be taken as a
guide to learning the art of train hopping, and I
would argue it really is an art. There's a lot
of expertise going into this. You know, we talked about
this briefly on some other episodes, but there there's no
shortage of resources purporting to give you advice, warnings and
(06:21):
guides to train hopping, but they're often of dubious, unverifiable value.
And the one thing most travelers agree on is this,
you've got to learn person to person from someone else
who knows the ropes, or more appropriately, in this case,
the rails. So as you've become more familiar with hopping
and you become accepted into the culture and lifestyle surrounding it,
(06:44):
you might be gifted with one of the most legendary
books in all of US history, The Crew Change Guide.
Remember when we were talking about this.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
One, Yeah, I remember this one specifically. What do you
think that means? The Crew Change guide. Hmmm, well, I
mean we can get it a lot of it, and
definitely if you haven't, go back and listen to our
episode on what was known as and is still known
as Hobo Code. We did an entire episode on it.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I think Ben right, we mentioned it in an episode.
I think we did it on a live show, and
we mentioned it in an episode about Hidden America where
we also talked a little bit about hidden buildings and
urban centers GOSD buildings.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So in this book, you're gonna learn a lot about
like again, literally the crew change, which is when people
check the trains, get on and off the trains, when
the crew actually changes who are engineering the train. There's
all kinds of cool information in there, and it's such
an interesting legendary book because it does seem like something
(07:48):
that would literally change year to year, even season to season,
even month to month, because you might have stuff that
gets altered when it comes to you know, who is
actually operating the trains, when and where and all that stuff.
But I guess theoretically keeping the trains on the tracks
(08:09):
really is a thing where you need to have regular
shipments of particular goods moving across, you know, from state
to state across regions of the United States on a
daily basis.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah. Yeah. As a result the Crew Change Guide, originating
with the legendary train Doc as he's known, The Crew
Change Guide provides the specifics of when a particular rail
line stops to change out their crew. Working for railroads
is very difficult. There's a high bar. It's probably terrible
(08:44):
for personal relationships if we're being honest, sort of like
working as an air traffic controller. And thank you to
our ananymous correspondent who reached out about that the crew
Change Guide cannot be purchased, cannot be posted online. You know,
it is meant to be given from person to person,
(09:05):
and as you said, it often gets updated. For more
information about the Crew Change Guide, check out our earlier
episode on whether or not any book should be banned
because this one's interesting. It's been partially self banned by
the community that creates it for their own protection. It's
fascinating stuff. We know. It is inarguable that the number
(09:30):
of active hoppers, or people traveling rail illicitly it has
greatly decreased over the decades, but make no mistake, there
are still strong communities of people traveling this way all
across the world, including the US, Mexico, and Canada South
America as well. So to understand the accusations about the
(09:51):
conspiracy surrounding the ftra we got to understand the history
of this hidden subculture. The concept of itinerant traveler searching
for work is ancient. As soon as the idea of
work started, that demographic existed. But the origins of modern
(10:12):
train hopping are directly tied to the expansion of railroads
and economic disasters, notably the Civil War in the mid
eighteen hundreds. That some people will argue, like our pal
Dave Russ's writing for How Stuff Works, that hobo originally
stood for hoe boys or guys who o cake. After
(10:34):
the Civil War, these disillusioned veterans were cast off from
larger society and they hopped the rails, maybe for ride home,
maybe for a new horizon, right to start life over.
And we're going to see how history rhymes later on
with this idea of disillusioned veterans. It's crazy, man, think
(10:56):
about it. How how can we articulate just how monumental
the railroad was. It's like up there with domesticating horses, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Sure, yeah, absolutely, If you imagine if you had to
literally hoof it to wherever you wanted to go, you
know in the United States, which is giant. And then
you've got a horse, now who can hoof it for
you at least part of the way or most of
the way. You just got to take stops to make
sure the horse is good. Now you've got a thing
(11:31):
that can take you hundreds thousands of miles and without
you having to run anywhere, without you having to, you know,
take care of another animal as it takes you somewhere.
You literally jump on a thing and then it takes
you thousands of miles.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah. We know also that perhaps due to the sheer
significance of this innovation of the concept of rail trains
were not entirely or solely a good thing here in
the US. They came to represent a stark divide between
haves and have nots. You know, the railroad network expands
(12:13):
westward and becomes denser in the north and the east,
and there's a new class of workers who are created,
an entirely new class of workers employed in the transit industry.
And at the same time, a lot of people from
rural areas or people who have been delayed displaced by
things like you know, the dust bowl. They had a
(12:36):
way to migrate to cities in search of more opportunity.
Freight trains were an inexpensive way to travel, especially if
you could hop out or catch out and not get caught.
But on the other side, on the bad side of it,
railroads could ruin a town's economic future, right if the
(12:57):
railroad bypasses your town, then you received no new travelers.
They also, you know, use slavery to build the railroads,
and there was a ton of racism involving the exploitation
of migrant workers.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, and I think my mind gets a little hung
up on this concept of everybody in a country who
doesn't have a job that is set up, you know,
that they imagine is going to be the job for
the rest of their life now has an opportunity to
go and travel and work, like literally be an internal
(13:35):
migrant worker that can go for two months, six months
a year, you know, travel two states away and work
a job that they know people are hiring for, make
some good money, bring it home, and then they could
go do it again if they need to, or not
even take it home because they don't have a home. Anymore.
(13:56):
They just make that their temporary home and then they
can move on to the next thing. You it's almost
it's it's almost like the lottery thing to me in
a little tiny way, where if I put myself in
that position, I can imagine myself thinking, Okay, I can
go make quite a bit of money here at this job.
Then I can go and make quite a bit of
money in another job, and maybe I'm going to strike
(14:18):
it big in one of these. Does that mean? Because
it's a brand new opportunity every time.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And for me, I see the both the desperation and
the appeal. Right, let's say you get word through the grapevine,
just like in grapes of wrath, that someone is hiring
a tremendous amount of workers out west, right, and you
are an okie. The dust bowl has wrecked not just
(14:43):
your prospects as a farmer, but the prospects of your
entire region. And so you tell yourself or you know
with certainty, this is your best chance, even if the
odds are against you. A lottery, as we were saying earlier,
you you don't have the money for a ticket, but
if you can get a solid job, then you can
change the course of your family's future. We also see
(15:06):
similar things with travelers who might go work in canning
in Alaska seasonally or travel to do cannabis harvesting right
and stay on the road. And that's a very common
thing in the earth, still common thing in the modern day.
It's not as common as it was during the Great Depression,
to be honest. Estimates tell us that during that horrible
(15:31):
time between nineteen twenty nine all the way up to
World War Two, really hobo ranks well to some four
million adults two hundred and fifty thousand teenagers amid them.
And of course this is a very dangerous time for
teenagers right, who can be victimized, exploited in any number
of ways. It just inspired, It left a tattoo on
(15:54):
the American consciousness and inspired so much fiction non fiction literature.
I was going back through my library and I was surprised, Matt,
I have more books about hobo history than I thought.
And don't know why.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I don't know. I do not have those books, but
we do, as you said, we do have lots of
people in our circles who have done train hopping, who
have lived that lifestyle for a while, and it's interesting
to think about it way back then, right in these times,
and then think about it maybe in the past twenty years,
(16:35):
past thirty years, just how much it has changed, and
really thinking about motivations for wanting to live that lifestyle.
And I don't know about you, but just anecdotally from
people I've spoken with, a lot of it has to
do with this feeling of not the feeling of not
(16:56):
having a solid foundation where you are in your life,
where where you grow up, where you stand, especially for
young people, then finding a family through this. So it
reminds me of our discussions of gangs and cartels and that
kind of thing, which it's not the same, right, We're
not we're not equating these two things, but this sense
of finding a group of people that becomes your family,
(17:20):
that you would in this case then just travel to
rails with and explore the explore the United States.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
And I'm gonna I think it's important for us to
have a positive note on this as we as we
enter the train tunnel here, this is a way, without
condoning it, we have to acknowledge this is a way
to see parts of the United States, in Canada and
Mexico that people never get to see. There is great
(17:47):
untamed beauty out there, you know, in that purple mountain
range and so on. So there is there is a
real appeal and community is a huge part of it.
And today, you know, you'll see widely different demographics. Right
are crust punk friends so called our dirty kid pals,
(18:08):
our anarchists who decided of their own volition that they
didn't want to participate in some of the frankly ridiculous
stuff that society demands of people in the current milieu.
But for all of those folks, whatever their motivation, it
is inescapable that train hopping is more difficult now than
(18:29):
it was in the past. There are security innovations at
train yards. You know, it's not now it's not always
just one day drunk train yard bull running around going
oh you can't have blah blah blah to the hooscal
you know. Now there are serious security innovations, and it
(18:49):
happens in step with growing federal concern national security concerns.
That these factors all put tighter eyes on the practice
of train hopping. Now, uh, his the demographic that we
we say this with great respect, that would historically be
considered hobos they're also sharing the rails with immigrant workers.
(19:11):
It's another it's another great off the grid transport option. Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And they're and families, by the way, not not just
you know, imagic an immigrant worker. Imagine an entire family
of people.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Trying to keep their kids safe right in a place
where the law doesn't really exist. And then there are
the real seekers, you know, shout out to the college kids,
the eagles, and almost a terrorist, the tourists. To be clear,
my my slip there is because the federal government has
raised serious or what they call terrorism concerns.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Part I mean there there's validity to it, but there's
also you know, the T word is a magic way
to get more funding. Uh yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, but well and then there's there are real dangerous individuals.
Hear me when I say that, dangerous individuals who choose
the rails as a way to get around and then
may also commit heinous crimes while they're doing that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
And like anybody else, they have a community. To what
degree is their community united? That becomes a question worth asking.
There are criminals who have gone off the grid to
escape the law, and due to the circumstances up until recently,
those folks could ghost very effectively, and we're going to
talk about that as well. These folks, all these groups
(20:36):
we're mentioning, have different motivations, but they rely upon the
same tactics. You need a community to survive, and that's
why there are loads of groups or crews or gangs,
trained gangs on the rail and they are usually providing support, resources,
guidance to their members. People are looking out for each
(20:57):
other because they know they're bad things out there in
the dark. So if you ask law enforcement, and we're
going to have a dichotomy here between people in that
community and people in the l EO community, if you
ask law enforcement, they'll tell you some of these groups
are dangerous. One name that came up over and over
and over again is the FTR or Freight Train Riders
(21:20):
of America. Innocuous name, a little bit ambitious, but it
sounds clean. It sounds like a union. Actually when you
think about.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
It, it really does. And have you seen some of
the patches that exist online.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
The start the party.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well y SDP, But there's also circular things that look
so much like a union that say Freight Train Riders
of America around the outside and that you know, and
it just you go, hmm, it feels like I'm on
a movie set, or right, you know, there's another union
hanging out over.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Here, or I'm at the VFA right checking out people's patches.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So defenders will tell us this is just another group
of reil writers. You can find people who identify or
associate with the FTR and they say, we have been mischaracterized.
We're a group that looks out for each other, and
a lot of people are making false claims about us.
A lot of people are associating us with crime. But critics,
(22:18):
including law enforcement, we'll talk about several of the law
enforcement investigators here. Critics will argue that FTR is an
extraordinarily dangerous organized criminal enterprise. So what's the truth. We're
going to pause for word from our sponsors, and then
we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy, all right, Matt, Yes,
(22:51):
the ft is a real thing. Yeah, there's a considerate
a real thing.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, there's a Facebook page and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, right, a gold standard starring step aside social security numbers.
And that's the real idea these days. I said real
id my cat yelled at me.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, Oh well, you can scan it now you.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Can scan everything. I don't know if it's the right
world to live in, but anyway, the FTRA has been
most active, not solely active, but most active in the
northwest United States and in southwestern Canada. So that's why
you may sometimes confusingly hear a similar Venn diagram term
(23:35):
FTRC that means Freight train Riders of Canada. And it
is so tough to find an origin story for FTRA
that everyone agrees on, partially because it's tough to find
a description of the FTRA that everyone agrees on, and
even now or even in its heyday. Right as far
(23:58):
as reporting investigation goes, railroad spokesfolks were saying, this is
an urban legend. Police are trying to do something that
makes their job easier. But I suggest we go to
Police magazine with an excellent article by Richard Valdemar that
shares one of the most popular origin tales, and maybe
(24:19):
while weld go through it, we can provide a little
bit further context.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh yeah, would you mind if I read a short
little excerpt from that same article. I think it's the
same one November two thousand and seven, okay man, And
this if you read the entire thing, which we highly
recommend you should. It's called The Freight Train Writers of America.
You can find it online. It feels like a hard
boiled detective novel at times, and some of the stuff
(24:45):
in here it has been You said, it's tough to
know what's real and what are just stories being told
around various police departments and sheriff's offices. So this is
what he says, and this is corroborated by some other people,
but they do. I don't know if you found this too, Ben,
They mentioned this specific article often when it's like mentioned
(25:08):
in Wikipedia or something, they'll cite this article, which is
interesting because for all intensive purposes, this is one person
who has experienced writing about it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Right, I've also seen it. This is why I'm excited
about doing some clarification and contextualization because I've also seen
this article mentioned by people who do not agree with it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. So that's that's why it's
kind of h all right, Well, he says, the FTR
is rooted right after the Vietnam War. There's a group
of disaffected veterans who come home. They don't want to
live life the way everybody else wants them to. They
are in a specific bar in Montana. It's the nineteen eighties.
(25:55):
They are, I believe at the time, they're already unhoused,
and they decide they are gonna basically just be a group.
They are gonna work for each other, with each other,
and they're gonna it's a specific railway, right, or a line, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
The Burlington Northern Santa Fe Pacific Railroad line, the high line,
that's right. And this let's pause here because Okay, it's
the nineteen eighties when these guys meet. So they've all
served and survived through the Vietnam War, like so many
other veterans, they're having a tough time reintegrating into a
(26:33):
society that you could argue threw them away through a
great many veterans away. And these are demographically most mostly
white males. We know that for sure. And like you
were saying, Matt, they according to the origin story, they
throw their fates together and they say, let's work together
to essentially improve quality of life for each other, to
(26:58):
support each other, and we're going to share everything, and
we're going to keep it a family show. But they
do mean everything.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, it gets pretty yeah, kind of gross. Talk about
sharing women specifically and stated in that.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Article violating human rights similar to a one percenter motorcycle gang.
I do want to shout out some internet scuttle butt
and some accounts that again we're going to keep anonymous
from different conversations, and we both have had. The idea is,
if you want to get specific about the origin of
(27:34):
the FTRA, you'll hear people say it started at this
bar in Whitefish, Montana. But you'll hear other people say no,
it's started in Libby, Montana. And you'll also hear that
the original guys were were not criminals. In fact, their
argument is that they were banding together to protect themselves
(27:57):
against violence that environment.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So let's let's remember our previous discussions of returning Vietnam
War veterans and the varying degrees to which they were
hailed as heroes and or shunned by other Americans who
were on you know, us soil when they returned home,
as well as you know, some of the good things
(28:21):
that were in place by like the Veterans Affairs associations,
as well as the really bad things that promises basically
that were not kept, and just that experience, you can
imagine at least I imagine making an individual pretty angry,
or could has the potential to make someone pretty angry
(28:42):
and fear that they may not have any kind of future. Yeah,
and the.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
We have to also remember the context of Montana at
the time. For years and years, decades and decades we
can say century plus, Montana had been a kind of
haven for what law enforcement would call transient individuals, right,
and again that's law enforcements word, not our own. You'll
(29:10):
often hear people in that community prefer the term traveler.
So the issue was that a few people, a few
bad apples, ruined the bushel for everybody. As a result,
legislation in Montana is passing laws that vastly exacerbate criminal
(29:30):
penalties for stuff such that you don't have to be
if you are an unhoused person, you don't have to
be caught red handed, you know, watching the wheels and
figuring out when to jump on the train. You can
just be sleeping nearby, and then they can put you
in jail for months and months and months, and they
(29:51):
know that you'll probably get acquitted because you didn't really
do anything wrong, but they will keep you in lock
up for that time. Because what are you going to do.
You're gonna get a lawyer. No, you're not not a gomplin.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh yeah. Well and just also quickly, the dangers of
let's say, sleeping in oh man. I think in this
article they were maybe it's in a different article they
refer to them as jungle camps. Yeah, the gibles, but
really just camps that are nearby to a real access point, right.
And but just the dangers of sleeping there that we've
(30:26):
we've seen over time. The police talk about it, the
people who have actually you know, traveled to talk about
how dangerous it can be because literally anybody could be
on that train right coming through, whether they're law enforcement
or not, whatever they are, and they and if their
intentions are bad, you are in an extremely vulnerable position.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
One hundred percent. Yeah. The authorities, uh if you, if
you decide to go to them, may simply arrest you.
It may not help you. Right. And this is this
is an issue that occurred back then and occurs to day.
And I remember something that came up a lot when
I was doing some volunteer work in similar areas there.
(31:07):
The distrust of authorities comes from a very valid and
extremely smart place to be honest with you, it is
a rational and intelligent decision the FDRA, again according to
the scuttle, But here you'll hear that the original crew
(31:29):
did not They were not these super criminals. They weren't
teaming up to be like the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.
But perhaps as a knock on consequence of the loose
nature of the organization or the covenant there, the FTRA
had a new wave of people coming in and these
(31:50):
were more hard cases, These are ex convicts. They start
calling themselves the new FTRA. And that's where we get
to the three divisions. Right by the skanks or the bandanas,
which would be the black bandanas, that's what we're talking about,
the high Line, the blue bandanas aka the wrecking Crew,
and then the red bandanas that are more Southern like
(32:15):
Louisiana to Long Beach.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it's really it's really interesting to separate them out
by the southern corridor the Midwest, you know, like it's
interesting to split them up that way. We have heard
stories of people who have ridden the rails, not associated
at all with the FTRA, who state wearing the black
bandana is still a very popular thing in the areas
(32:40):
where the black bandanas are supposedly worn by the FTRA,
which is really interesting and it's a way to associate
yourself with other people who ride the rails, but it
is not specifically gang related.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah yeah, because again, confirmed members of the FTRA defined
as people who say their members and then get that
confirmed by other people who say their members. That's really
the best you can do on an order chart here,
because it's people connected by a similar lifestyle, and they're
(33:14):
so loosely organized that people do not always agree who
is actually in the FTRA. To that earlier point, it
is a known fact out there that some people will
falsely claim membership for protection purposes, or for intimidation, or
just for bragging rights, just to like sound cool at
(33:34):
the fire, which is not a smart move at all.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Or intimidating to someone that they are worried. Is attempting
to intimidate them, right, That kind of like little thing
that you would say, like watch out, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Dude, we live in Atlanta. You know, if you're not
if you're not a crip, if you're not a blood,
then don't say you are. It is a really dumb idea.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, this is an know. The really interesting thing that
I was having a discussion with somebody about earlier, this
official association with like those two well known gangs, right,
there are smaller gangs that have associations and sets, right,
But then there are other ones that are like claim
association or might say their associated, or wear the same
(34:19):
colors or do that kind of thing, and it's just
it feels like a very dangerous game.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
First of all, my favorite light about that just tagitially
related was from an old eminem song where he says
something like I'm walking through the hood wearing blue and red, Like,
I don't see what the big deal is. It happens,
you know, it's cool. I've been in a lot of situations,
(34:46):
as you know, and probably one of the funniest, weirdest
ones when our office was in a different part of town.
I went into that local Target and I was accidentally
wearing a red shirt and khakis yep, And then a
customer yelled at me.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Happens to me and best buy with blue all the time?
Really still, yep?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Do you do it on purpose?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Now?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Is it just like discordianism?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Blue? I'm just wearing blue all the time.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You're wrapping it? So whatever, the true origin of the
FDR may be. We know that they expanded or things
calling themselves the FTR expanded not just in purported membership,
but in areas of operation to those you know that
rough three categories of regions, and their reputation expanded and
(35:36):
stepped more and more often. People were saying, these are
dangerous men. These are the kind of men you should
never cross and in fact avoid them if you can.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yep, yep, that's what I've seen. I have also heard
stories that that FTR members when it was a thing,
and we're not talking very long ago, you just avoid.
It's like, I don't know, it's kind of weird to me,
and it's weird to make this association the way the
(36:06):
police describes them. We joked about it at the top,
like a biker gang basically without bikes. But if you
just imagine seeing a group of people that look not
that friendly, you just do whatever you can. Just I'm
gonna stay away from them as much as I can.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, never pick the fight, you know what
I mean, Just realize that sometimes the fight might pick you.
And FTRA is full of pithy sayings or attributed to
the group with things like what is it all on one,
one on all, meaning that if you have a problem
with one guy and everybody is fighting and this is
(36:46):
going to be this gets sticky because there have been
revenge homicides between FTR members right for different slights, and
let's go to the crimes. Okay, So again this is
coming to us from the lens of law enforcement, So
there's definite narrative and perspective at play. One of the
(37:07):
most prominent investigators you'll read about and concerning the FTR
is a retired Spokane police officer named Bob Grandanetti. He
had a long career in the law, and after his
experience with rail related crimes and incidents, he specializes as
(37:29):
a retiree in exploring the nature of this group and
the alleged crimes. So in his work, he links a
large collection of criminal acts through the eighties, nineties, and
up to the two thousands, links them to FTR or
folks he believes are associated with FTR. And you know,
(37:49):
some of these crimes honestly are a bit pedestrian. When
we're talking about living off the grid, things like food
stamp and benefit fraud, it's not that uncommon. But then oh,
in theft of course, who doesn't love a good heist.
But then we're talking drug trade assaults, a little bit
of human trafficking, and of course homicide and the most
(38:12):
concerning cases, the most extreme cases concern proven serial murderers.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, there are actual human beings that were serial killers
that rode the rails as part of their crimes, as
part of their mo Does that mean they are FTR? Well,
let's find out, because there is one specific person that
kind of matches up with Grandinetti's findings in his police
(38:41):
work as well as kind of the mythos of FTR.
Is this guy named Robert Joseph Silveria Junior. And he's
known by a bunch of other names as well, including
the boxcar Killer. And we'll tell you about him right
after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
We have returned. Also known as sidecar Sidetrack, boxcar Bob,
boxcar Killer as the media dubbed him, this man is
currently serving double life sentences in Wyoming for crimes that
he does confirm he committed. He was convicted of these
(39:26):
two murders in different states pretty far away. Before he
was convicted of these and incarcerated, he spent more than
a decade and a half, riding the rails and apparently
for his own reports, killing at will. By the time
investigators wrapped stuff up, Silveria had confessed to twenty eight
(39:48):
total homicides scattered across the United States. Right, and he
also well from his argument he was killing the vulnerable
younger people who was also killing older people who already
had government benefits. So the idea is that he was
(40:09):
killing for profit. But he the story still is murky.
What he's saying does not one to one match up
with the results of investigations or even with his own
earlier claims. He himself denied being a member of the
ftr A, so he said he didn't do it, or
(40:29):
he said I'm not in I'm not in this. I
was just riding the rails. But then other people who
said that again we have to caveat it, who said
the ftr A members were like, oh yeah, boxcar Bob,
that guy's a monster. We know him. We pull we
want to pull his patch because of his terrible behavior.
Pulling the patch means expelling someone from that loose.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Organization again, to that to that motorcycle club thing, right right,
that's just the connections are there.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Do you think he was FTR.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I I don't know, I haven't found enough on him.
Just there's a lot written about him and specifically about
you know, his crimes and specifics of you know, Roger
Lee Bowman and the human beings that the lives that
he took. But there's not a lot of details about him,
and you got to either trust him or trust the
people that are you know, picked up and talking about him.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Right Like one book we read for this as Murder
on the Rails, The True Story of the Detective Unlock
the Shocking Secrets of the Box Car serial Killer. That's
by William Palmini, who has first hand experience in the investigation.
So if you want to read more, that is a
fantastic place to start.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yep. Absolutely, and there are a couple of different ways
that you could become a really well known criminal in
the US. Nowadays, a true crime podcast might get made
about you. Hey, now, you're we all coughed as we
continue making true crime. Back in the day, there was
(42:05):
this little show, while there still is this show and
you can find Payne Lindsay r peal uh the show
right now. Yeah, America's Most Wanted And if you went
on that show, well, you became well known.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Right, and even if you didn't want to be on
the show, which is weird because a couple of people
who are on that show as suspects they did want
to be on it. They got off on that thing
because you know, they're messed up. But the FTRA is
an organization probably did not care for the shout out,
but they gained national intention because they got that profile
(42:41):
on AMW and Silveria's brutal nature drove that. So his
heinous acts are how the larger public outside of Invisible
America learned about, uh learned about this organization. And then
we have to introduce a couple of other cases. Matt.
There's one that you and I both found. This is
(43:06):
disturbing and it's also heartbreaking because this guy was forced
to ride rails when he was fourteen years old.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah yeah, we're talking about Michael Elijah Adams, right, yeah,
aka Dirty Mike. And this guy claims to have killed
more than sixteen people.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yeah yeah. And the interviews that he gives when he's
in lock up are chilling because he says he killed
more than sixteen other people less than thirty, and he
does not have any regrets at all, he is different
from Saveria because he proudly claims association with FTRA, and
(43:53):
he further said he had been taught how to become
a serial murderer by a guy named John dogg Man.
Tony Boris Bors himself was convicted of some crimes. Police
believe he was an FTRA enforcer.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah, yeah, which is I mean, again, it's possible, and
how would we know? But I think maybe that's my
big question, how would we know any of this is
happening if there wasn't some kind of deep surveillance going
on within some of these groups because they can move
so quickly from crime scene to anywhere else, Right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
There's one hundred percent infiltration. Yeah, it's that's another hidden industry, right.
Maybe the stories about fictional characters going deep cover sound ludicrous,
but it is a real industry with outlaw biker groups
as well, with any any number of suspected games. You
(44:55):
could imagine when the FBI was going too hard on
calling Juggalows criminal enterprise, they had juggalo infiltrators. Can you
imagine how much fun it would be to be the
juggalo infiltrator at the gathering? You don't have to pay
for the ticket. They put you in the helicopter.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I bet yeah, but they're putting really nice people away.
Probably you probably.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
You shouldn't do it. Yeah, just let them go, you know,
like the cool bulls at the train yard who just say, guys,
just go back on sleep in the jungle, don't do
this on my shift, Which are real conversations that happen,
you know, and a lot of the uh tell us
if you work in the railroad industry, but at least
(45:43):
without getting too specific, in a lot of urban areas,
the rail employees who are not security kind of have
a uh don't ask, don't tell policy. If you're not
making trouble, then I'm not making trouble, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah, Well, but they the FTRA allegedly was making trouble,
at least according to reports back in the day, including
pretty major thefts and why don't even know what you
call that, like taking serious amounts of freight off of
trains sometimes other times, like there were a couple instances
where a train was derailed and then an alleged FTRA
(46:27):
member was like found dead in the wreckage and it
caused the derailment like purposefully, but accidentally died in the crash.
A couple other you know versions of that where a
train is stopped purposefully, you know, at a specific place,
breaking bad style. Well yeah, I mean it reminds you
of the trains being robbed on horseback back in the West, right,
(46:49):
and those old tales, but just doing it in a
new way.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
And then the question becomes, are these unified organized acts
by a single group or a group of related communities
or is law enforcement pinning these things together because it's
more advantageous for investigation, you know, that's my big question.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Might get some dollars pumped into the department.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Yeah, and maybe some promotions a lot. Wait, let me
get here real quick, so I brush my shoulders satirically,
not seriously, folks. So that you're right, though, Matt. The
headlines of this time period they get pretty shocking themselves.
Ap The Seattle Times could again centered here in the Northwest.
(47:43):
They feature stories with titles like racist Hobos, slave rail riders,
police tracks, gang of Elusive drifters, chase. Yeah, that's from
the nineties, so that's more than heyday. The authorities say, look,
FTR is real. We suspect this group has killed at
least three hundred other folks riding the rails in the
(48:05):
past decade, and we think the group has two thousand members.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, Well it's striking fear, right. But then
there are also real other serial killers out there that
were fairly recent within history. We're talking nineteen nineties, sometimes
in the two thousands. Back in the nineties, there's this guy,
I think his I think he would say his name,
(48:32):
Angel Maturino Rescindies. I don't know exactly how you would say.
You can look him up. He's linked to at least
fifteen murders, not of just people riding the rails, but
of people who live near railroad tracks, people who were
out near the tracks one night when he happened to
be there, like a pastor and his wife while they're
(48:55):
sleeping at home. Right. So there are real individuals that
are terrifying, that make you feel and should make you
feel the way that that title makes you feel. Right,
But the groups of people that that title is trying
to make you afraid of maybe are non existent in
that way, or at least operate in that way at
(49:15):
one time, but don't exist now. But it's this, it's
to me, it feels like an attempt to make us,
anyone who would read that fearful of the rails themselves
and of any of any possible trip we might want
to take. I don't know. What do you think, then?
Is it a way to just keep people from trying
(49:35):
to do this, from just riding the rails some of it?
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, it has to be. But I'd say I appreciate
the point that this is simply a convenient circulatory system
for people who want to do evil things. It was
at the time, right, So for obviously law enforcement. I
don't think it's being purposely misleading. They're putting a little
(50:00):
bit of English on the on the billiard ball, but
they're doing that. They're doing that because they genuinely believe
what they are saying, you know, and they're careful to say,
we estimate this many deaths, we estimate this many members.
But it's also it's challenged by an easy analogy exercise.
(50:26):
All right, there are three hundred and twenty three They're
more than three hundred and twenty three US residents, now, right,
that's a lot of people. So if one of those
people travels somewhere else and does a bunch of evilshit,
then does that mean that the President of the United
(50:47):
States co signed it? Does that mean you know, if
there's if there's a guy from Atlanta who becomes a
famous like non consensual foot tickler, like he just busts
into hotel rooms and tickles people's feet because he's weird
and disturbing.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Hey, where we talked about a guy who did that
very thing.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yes, I'm trying to find a non murder example that's
still really creepy. But yeah, if you heard that guy
is like from Atlanta, you would say you would typically
say he's from Atlanta. But if you said he's associated
with Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
He's an Atlantean. He's an at Alien.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
That makes all of us look really bad, you know
what I mean? So there is I think a logical
gap there, and maybe that gap comes from desperation, dude,
because the reason they say they're racist is at the
time or reporting, they were saying, we believe some of
these homicides are for criminal gain, some are for revenge,
(51:46):
and some are just racially motivated, because we think these
guys are white supremacist. FDR self identifying members have later
denied this. Of course, no one's going out and saying yeah,
you got me, cop. But we know and this is
something you and I specifically have dealt with in a
lot of investigations on other shows and in personal life.
(52:09):
Police are facing tremendous issues when they're trying to figure
out what happened in these deaths, right, and maybe that
is what drives some of these breathless headlines and some
of these increasingly I'm not going to say exaggerated, but
I am going to say ambitious claims right about size
(52:29):
and level of sophistication or organization. I mean, trade hopping
is dangerous, even if you have deep experience in it.
Folks can be injured. They die every year in the process.
This happens all around the US. And then when you
find the body, depending on what happened, it can be
very difficult to prove whether it was an accident or
(52:50):
foul play. Did that person fall asleep on the tracks?
Did they pass out due to inebriation, did they get pushed?
Speaker 2 (52:58):
You know, so really quick, two scenarios. Right, you're an investigator.
You find a body. It's on the side of the
tracks with on an embankment. Right, this body has bruises
all over it and it's deceased and doesn't have anything
of note on it, like no identifying information, there's no
(53:19):
evidence around. It's just a body there, right. In the
two scenarios one, it's you, right, and you just accidentally
fell off the train when there's an embankment there and
you fell down. All those bruises are due to you
falling and all the debris and the stuff you hit.
Scenario two, you get brutally beaten to death on that
train and then you get thrown off that train by
(53:40):
a group of people. The investigator is going to have
a really hard time proving which of those two scenarios
is true unless there's specific you know, DNA evidence left
behind by a killer.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right, did they beat the brakes off of you? Or
did you die do your own negligence or just do
to just an accident of active God if God exists,
I mean, yeah, And that's another point I want to
go to. The second thing that I think is really
important that you're hitting on there is travelers in these
demographics often won't have idea or permanent address. You're hearing
(54:15):
us pass out nicknames or street names for some of
the people we've mentioned. That's not just that's not meant
to be a cutesy, cool or edgy thing that helps
avoid investigators figuring stuff out.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
That's why that's why names like this proliferate. And well,
and some.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Of the people out there might be a child who
is trying to get away from a really bad situation
at home, so they use a different name, so nobody
that they talk to or meet can end up contacting
a parent or you know, an uncle or something that
would be bad news for that person.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Right, That's something that is tremendously important for us to
hit on because I know we have a lot of
fellow travelers in the audience tonight. Many don't fall for
broadbrush stereotypes saying, oh, here's a rich trust fund kid
who just wants to cause play a very difficult life.
(55:12):
A lot of people are coming from places where they
have no other recourse. They are driven to this existence,
and it is tremendously important exercise, at least in my opinion,
to exercise empathy for that. And you may have met
these people, and you may not have known because it's
their story, it's not ours. But we know back to
this idea about lacking a permanent address, lacking id, whether
(55:37):
through choice or through necessity. Some people can simply be
to borrow the phrase the name of a band I
love Railyard Ghost. They don't really exist on the grid,
so it can take weeks for maybe someone to happen
across a body, per your earlier two scenarios, and therefore
identification could be very difficult. When foul play is suspected
(56:00):
were obvious, let's say, like a bunch of stab wounds
or a gunshot, this means the assailant because it took
so long to find the body, the assailant can already
be in the wind States and states away, you know,
and very difficult to find.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. It really is important to
exercise empathy for every potential angle you could be coming
the story from, right, because those investigators really are like
that person that we talked about at the very beginning
in Police mag Richard Valdemar, when he's writing that story
(56:38):
and talking about all that stuff, he and everybody he's
working with are looking for someone who is serial killing
homeless people in camps, and we're talking dozens of people,
not just a couple, and they are doing everything they
can to find out who that is and to stop
that person, right, and then you imagine just that pursuit
(56:59):
could bring on all kinds of different things that we've
been discussing throughout this episode, right.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
All well intentioned too. And this is the thing. Imagine
how damnably frustrating it must be if you're good police
and you're trying to solve a murder, right, or you're
not even you don't know if it's murder. You're trying
to figure out what happened to this poor kid whose
body was found in the train yard, And then over
(57:26):
and over again, you get stonewalled by your own people
because no one cares. It's a homeless person. Don't have idea,
you know what I mean, This is not a high
value case. And that's also further, I would say, similar
to serial murderers who predate on vulnerable or fringe communities.
(57:49):
That's why those monsters get away for so long, right,
because they're they're killing black people in the time of segregation, right,
They're killing people in the Gate community, in the time
of rampant homophobia. This is a systemic problem. This, I mean,
that's another conspiracy. But right now, for FTRA, law enforcement
(58:11):
will predominantly from the DOJ on down. They will tell
you the FTR is this hidden network of organized crime
operating in and out of states, to quote Dennis Reynolds,
like a demon's whisper. Some rail companies will still tell
you it's an urban legend trying to link on related
crimes for you know, not super ethical motivations or as
(58:36):
members of the FTR a claim it's a decades plus
attempt at character assassination where mutual support group. We're not
wealthy people, Please stop tying us to these evil things.
But where's the group now, Matt? What about the rest
of the folks out there in the box scars, the
grainers and so on.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Well, okay, so what I've heard scuttle butt that I've
gotten a hold of is that the original FTR members
are you know, older now, like quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (59:06):
Older than seventies. Easy.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, But there are other groups of people that are
I don't know how you would stylize them just a
you know, small group of people. They'd be they would
be considered a gang, probably by a police organization, but
there are several out there that operate that. Again, people
tell me you just stay away from those people as
(59:31):
much as you can.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
MM hmm. There are also rules to your point, Matt,
that can apply to many situations, even similarly seemingly dissimilar situations.
One of those is always, in a new environment, realize
that you do not know who you are speaking to.
That person you're speaking to may seem very very cool,
(59:52):
ma seem charismatic, may ask you to do stuff, but
you always need to keep your head on a swivel.
I don't want to encourage the slippery slope of paranoia.
But a new environment is not a familiar environment, and
people people's personas can change on a dime. You know,
it's something, It's something to be very cognizant about. You'll
(01:00:15):
see a lot of advice too, from people with experience
who would say, specifically in the jungle, don't try to
flirt with a lady you don't know because you don't
know who she's affiliated with.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Things that might seem disrespectful can have immediate and brutal consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
It reminds me of Ki Lawrence aka Kai the hitch
Hiker aka Caleb mcgilvalryo, that dude back in the day
we talked about. There's a Netflix special on him. Guy
that nearly killed Jetsimmons McBride with a what a hatchet
(01:00:55):
I think, or acts or something that he had. It
was a very interesting thing, just how the complexity of
an individual.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Right right, And this is where we have to ask
about the future too. Right now the future looks grim
for the historic practice of ak hobo traveling train hopping
rates have massively dwindled. In twenty eleven, a Highline spokesperson
Gus Malonis said, Look, the FTR and overall traine hopping
(01:01:30):
culture have quote largely gone extinct end quote. But there
are people out there right now who disagree because some
of us may be listening to tonight's show on a train,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
That would be so cool if you're doing that. Kudos,
But also we do not condone that behavior.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yes, do you hear us? Hr We did the bit
at the beginning and at the end, so can't get
us anyway. We want to end by thanking everybody who
made this possible, tireless efforts of investigators, rail employees, travelers
who provided Matt and I with first hand accounts of
a world most of the public will simply never see.
(01:02:12):
And I think we also want to take a special
moment to thank travelers past and present that've reached out
to us in our little show over the years, as
well as providing your own insights on tonight's episode. Please
be safe out there. If you have related stories, we
want to hear them. We know anonymity can be mission
critical given the nature of this travel and given people's backgrounds,
(01:02:34):
so if you do decide to reach out to us,
we will do our best to keep your private infos safe. Anyway,
With that, come on over tell us the stuff they
don't want you to know. You can find us online,
You can call us on the phone. You can hit
us up on our good old fashioned email address. Over
on the rails of social media, we are conspiracy stuff,
conspiracy stuff show or some derivation thereof, and over on
(01:02:59):
your telephone keypad we have an address as well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yes, Style one eight three three stt WYTK. It's a
voicemail system. When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname,
one that nobody can identify you with, and then let
us know within the message if we can use that
name and your message on the air. If you'd rather
use your words in written form, why not instead send
us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we received. Be well aware, yet out afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back. Always like to slip a little Easter
egg in here for our friends who listen to the end.
If you are interested in this episode you want to
learn more about subcultures that exist off the grid, please
(01:03:46):
please please check out our pal, Jake Hanrahan's newest endeavor,
Away Days. It's available now on YouTube. We're friends with Jake.
He's not paying us to say it. He's just great
at what he does as a journal so check that out.
Stay tuned for more announcements of that nature in the future.
In the meantime, join us here in the Dark Conspiracy
(01:04:08):
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will return shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer, Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are you. You are here. That makes this the stuff
they don't want you to know. Sh Can you hear
it in the distance? That train whistle? Oh?
Speaker 2 (00:52):
I did hear I heard it?
Speaker 3 (00:54):
I heard tell of it. Yes, tonight we are traveling
the rails fellow conspiracy real exploring a hidden history of
the United States, a culture that is often romanticized, vilified,
and above all, perhaps misunderstood. You know, when people hear
words like hobo or vacabond or traveler, dirty kid, hobo especially,
(01:18):
I think for most of the public in the West,
it conjures up this vision of itinerant men, you know,
maybe not with the best sharpest duds, but with dignity
in their faces, holding sticks and bindles amid the great depression,
which is again a terrible name.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Yeah, images of human beings looking for work. Right, that's
generally what it's associated.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
With, which is the great differentiator between a hobo, a tramp,
and a bum. Right, And please keep in mind that
for people who historically consider themselves hoboes, calling someone a
bum was an enormous insult. The difference being hobo's travel
looking for work, Tramps travel doing their best to avoid work.
(02:09):
Bums neither travel nor work. And that's that's the idea
of it feels like it's distant history, but we have
to remember the past is always closer than it appears
in the rear view mirror. And the reality is that
train hoppers still exist. According to law enforcement, there's been
a conspiracy of foot So tonight we're going to dive
(02:33):
into this thing that we've been loosely calling Invisible America,
and we're going to ask what is this ft R
A the Freight Trained Writers of America. Is it, as
law enforcement says, a brutal coven of people committed to
organized crime? Is it, as its supporters argue, a loose
(02:55):
collection of communities trying to provide mutual support, Or is
it as some railroad spokespeople say an urban myth that
never existed at all. Here are the facts, Matt. How
(03:16):
would we define train hopping or freight hopping to someone
who's never heard of the concept.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
We call it Hell's Angels, but without bikes. That's that's what.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
That's from police magazine.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
That's what Police magazine would say. Sorry, No, train hopping
is literally just somebody who is using the three the
thirty thousand miles of rail across the United States and
using it as a way to move around, but not
doing it as you know, a passenger on a train
(03:49):
would if let's say you get on a passenger car,
you pay for a ticket to that kind of thing.
It's hopping on and off of the actual freight cars
that are taking various things, you know, I think everything
from coal to large shipping containers.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
Yeah, box cars, grainers, fa Lucky you might be able
to hop inside something nicer used by the employees of
the railroad. Yeah, it's called catching out. When you hitch
this ride, do it without permission from the train operators
or employees. This occurs all over the world. It is
illegal in every state in the United States currently, and
(04:30):
it's also dangerous legality aside for a ton of reasons.
There are accidents, drugs, crime, You can be at the
mercy of the weather depending on which car you end
up catching out on, and then there's the ever present
possibility of another rider becoming violent. Also, we got a
note first thank you for the seasoned train hoppers we
(04:53):
talk to in preparation for this episode. A lot of
the folks that we spoke with also that googles, folks
who are new to this lifestyle can be a danger
to themselves and others simply due to their lack of experience.
So no ill intent, it's just again very dangerous. You
have to know what you're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Yeah, you learn how to do things by doing them right.
And if you're not with somebody who's essentially a guide
who can show you the ropes at any given moment,
you could be putting yourself and everybody else you're with
in pretty serious and in this case grave danger because
you're on a giant moving train or you're trying to
get onto one or off of one.
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Right, and it's a thing that does not currently have
sensors that tell it, oh, someone's trying to jump on
this as it's moving and also, slowing down a train
is very difficult. It's doable. Stopping a train is an
engineering feat. With this in mind, we want to be clear, folks,
(05:56):
we are not expressly condoning this travel. And perhaps more importantly,
this is in no way to be taken as a
guide to learning the art of train hopping, and I
would argue it really is an art. There's a lot
of expertise going into this. You know, we talked about
this briefly on some other episodes, but there there's no
shortage of resources purporting to give you advice, warnings and
(06:21):
guides to train hopping, but they're often of dubious, unverifiable value.
And the one thing most travelers agree on is this,
you've got to learn person to person from someone else
who knows the ropes, or more appropriately, in this case,
the rails. So as you've become more familiar with hopping
and you become accepted into the culture and lifestyle surrounding it,
(06:44):
you might be gifted with one of the most legendary
books in all of US history, The Crew Change Guide.
Remember when we were talking about this.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
One, Yeah, I remember this one specifically. What do you
think that means? The Crew Change guide. Hmmm, well, I
mean we can get it a lot of it, and
definitely if you haven't, go back and listen to our
episode on what was known as and is still known
as Hobo Code. We did an entire episode on it.
Speaker 3 (07:10):
I think Ben right, we mentioned it in an episode.
I think we did it on a live show, and
we mentioned it in an episode about Hidden America where
we also talked a little bit about hidden buildings and
urban centers GOSD buildings.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
So in this book, you're gonna learn a lot about
like again, literally the crew change, which is when people
check the trains, get on and off the trains, when
the crew actually changes who are engineering the train. There's
all kinds of cool information in there, and it's such
an interesting legendary book because it does seem like something
(07:48):
that would literally change year to year, even season to season,
even month to month, because you might have stuff that
gets altered when it comes to you know, who is
actually operating the trains, when and where and all that stuff.
But I guess theoretically keeping the trains on the tracks
(08:09):
really is a thing where you need to have regular
shipments of particular goods moving across, you know, from state
to state across regions of the United States on a
daily basis.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah. Yeah. As a result the Crew Change Guide, originating
with the legendary train Doc as he's known, The Crew
Change Guide provides the specifics of when a particular rail
line stops to change out their crew. Working for railroads
is very difficult. There's a high bar. It's probably terrible
(08:44):
for personal relationships if we're being honest, sort of like
working as an air traffic controller. And thank you to
our ananymous correspondent who reached out about that the crew
Change Guide cannot be purchased, cannot be posted online. You know,
it is meant to be given from person to person,
(09:05):
and as you said, it often gets updated. For more
information about the Crew Change Guide, check out our earlier
episode on whether or not any book should be banned
because this one's interesting. It's been partially self banned by
the community that creates it for their own protection. It's
fascinating stuff. We know. It is inarguable that the number
(09:30):
of active hoppers, or people traveling rail illicitly it has
greatly decreased over the decades, but make no mistake, there
are still strong communities of people traveling this way all
across the world, including the US, Mexico, and Canada South
America as well. So to understand the accusations about the
(09:51):
conspiracy surrounding the ftra we got to understand the history
of this hidden subculture. The concept of itinerant traveler searching
for work is ancient. As soon as the idea of
work started, that demographic existed. But the origins of modern
(10:12):
train hopping are directly tied to the expansion of railroads
and economic disasters, notably the Civil War in the mid
eighteen hundreds. That some people will argue, like our pal
Dave Russ's writing for How Stuff Works, that hobo originally
stood for hoe boys or guys who o cake. After
(10:34):
the Civil War, these disillusioned veterans were cast off from
larger society and they hopped the rails, maybe for ride home,
maybe for a new horizon, right to start life over.
And we're going to see how history rhymes later on
with this idea of disillusioned veterans. It's crazy, man, think
(10:56):
about it. How how can we articulate just how monumental
the railroad was. It's like up there with domesticating horses, right.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Sure, yeah, absolutely, If you imagine if you had to
literally hoof it to wherever you wanted to go, you
know in the United States, which is giant. And then
you've got a horse, now who can hoof it for
you at least part of the way or most of
the way. You just got to take stops to make
sure the horse is good. Now you've got a thing
(11:31):
that can take you hundreds thousands of miles and without
you having to run anywhere, without you having to, you know,
take care of another animal as it takes you somewhere.
You literally jump on a thing and then it takes
you thousands of miles.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Yeah. We know also that perhaps due to the sheer
significance of this innovation of the concept of rail trains
were not entirely or solely a good thing here in
the US. They came to represent a stark divide between
haves and have nots. You know, the railroad network expands
(12:13):
westward and becomes denser in the north and the east,
and there's a new class of workers who are created,
an entirely new class of workers employed in the transit industry.
And at the same time, a lot of people from
rural areas or people who have been delayed displaced by
things like you know, the dust bowl. They had a
(12:36):
way to migrate to cities in search of more opportunity.
Freight trains were an inexpensive way to travel, especially if
you could hop out or catch out and not get caught.
But on the other side, on the bad side of it,
railroads could ruin a town's economic future, right if the
(12:57):
railroad bypasses your town, then you received no new travelers.
They also, you know, use slavery to build the railroads,
and there was a ton of racism involving the exploitation
of migrant workers.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
Yeah, and I think my mind gets a little hung
up on this concept of everybody in a country who
doesn't have a job that is set up, you know,
that they imagine is going to be the job for
the rest of their life now has an opportunity to
go and travel and work, like literally be an internal
(13:35):
migrant worker that can go for two months, six months
a year, you know, travel two states away and work
a job that they know people are hiring for, make
some good money, bring it home, and then they could
go do it again if they need to, or not
even take it home because they don't have a home. Anymore.
(13:56):
They just make that their temporary home and then they
can move on to the next thing. You it's almost
it's it's almost like the lottery thing to me in
a little tiny way, where if I put myself in
that position, I can imagine myself thinking, Okay, I can
go make quite a bit of money here at this job.
Then I can go and make quite a bit of
money in another job, and maybe I'm going to strike
(14:18):
it big in one of these. Does that mean? Because
it's a brand new opportunity every time.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
And for me, I see the both the desperation and
the appeal. Right, let's say you get word through the grapevine,
just like in grapes of wrath, that someone is hiring
a tremendous amount of workers out west, right, and you
are an okie. The dust bowl has wrecked not just
(14:43):
your prospects as a farmer, but the prospects of your
entire region. And so you tell yourself or you know
with certainty, this is your best chance, even if the
odds are against you. A lottery, as we were saying earlier,
you you don't have the money for a ticket, but
if you can get a solid job, then you can
change the course of your family's future. We also see
(15:06):
similar things with travelers who might go work in canning
in Alaska seasonally or travel to do cannabis harvesting right
and stay on the road. And that's a very common
thing in the earth, still common thing in the modern day.
It's not as common as it was during the Great Depression,
to be honest. Estimates tell us that during that horrible
(15:31):
time between nineteen twenty nine all the way up to
World War Two, really hobo ranks well to some four
million adults two hundred and fifty thousand teenagers amid them.
And of course this is a very dangerous time for
teenagers right, who can be victimized, exploited in any number
of ways. It just inspired, It left a tattoo on
(15:54):
the American consciousness and inspired so much fiction non fiction literature.
I was going back through my library and I was surprised, Matt,
I have more books about hobo history than I thought.
And don't know why.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
I don't know. I do not have those books, but
we do, as you said, we do have lots of
people in our circles who have done train hopping, who
have lived that lifestyle for a while, and it's interesting
to think about it way back then, right in these times,
and then think about it maybe in the past twenty years,
(16:35):
past thirty years, just how much it has changed, and
really thinking about motivations for wanting to live that lifestyle.
And I don't know about you, but just anecdotally from
people I've spoken with, a lot of it has to
do with this feeling of not the feeling of not
(16:56):
having a solid foundation where you are in your life,
where where you grow up, where you stand, especially for
young people, then finding a family through this. So it
reminds me of our discussions of gangs and cartels and that
kind of thing, which it's not the same, right, We're
not we're not equating these two things, but this sense
of finding a group of people that becomes your family,
(17:20):
that you would in this case then just travel to
rails with and explore the explore the United States.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
And I'm gonna I think it's important for us to
have a positive note on this as we as we
enter the train tunnel here, this is a way, without
condoning it, we have to acknowledge this is a way
to see parts of the United States, in Canada and
Mexico that people never get to see. There is great
(17:47):
untamed beauty out there, you know, in that purple mountain
range and so on. So there is there is a
real appeal and community is a huge part of it.
And today, you know, you'll see widely different demographics. Right
are crust punk friends so called our dirty kid pals,
(18:08):
our anarchists who decided of their own volition that they
didn't want to participate in some of the frankly ridiculous
stuff that society demands of people in the current milieu.
But for all of those folks, whatever their motivation, it
is inescapable that train hopping is more difficult now than
(18:29):
it was in the past. There are security innovations at
train yards. You know, it's not now it's not always
just one day drunk train yard bull running around going
oh you can't have blah blah blah to the hooscal
you know. Now there are serious security innovations, and it
(18:49):
happens in step with growing federal concern national security concerns.
That these factors all put tighter eyes on the practice
of train hopping. Now, uh, his the demographic that we
we say this with great respect, that would historically be
considered hobos they're also sharing the rails with immigrant workers.
(19:11):
It's another it's another great off the grid transport option. Uh.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
And they're and families, by the way, not not just
you know, imagic an immigrant worker. Imagine an entire family
of people.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Trying to keep their kids safe right in a place
where the law doesn't really exist. And then there are
the real seekers, you know, shout out to the college kids,
the eagles, and almost a terrorist, the tourists. To be clear,
my my slip there is because the federal government has
raised serious or what they call terrorism concerns.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Part I mean there there's validity to it, but there's
also you know, the T word is a magic way
to get more funding. Uh yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Yeah, but well and then there's there are real dangerous individuals.
Hear me when I say that, dangerous individuals who choose
the rails as a way to get around and then
may also commit heinous crimes while they're doing that.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
And like anybody else, they have a community. To what
degree is their community united? That becomes a question worth asking.
There are criminals who have gone off the grid to
escape the law, and due to the circumstances up until recently,
those folks could ghost very effectively, and we're going to
talk about that as well. These folks, all these groups
(20:36):
we're mentioning, have different motivations, but they rely upon the
same tactics. You need a community to survive, and that's
why there are loads of groups or crews or gangs,
trained gangs on the rail and they are usually providing support, resources,
guidance to their members. People are looking out for each
(20:57):
other because they know they're bad things out there in
the dark. So if you ask law enforcement, and we're
going to have a dichotomy here between people in that
community and people in the l EO community, if you
ask law enforcement, they'll tell you some of these groups
are dangerous. One name that came up over and over
and over again is the FTR or Freight Train Riders
(21:20):
of America. Innocuous name, a little bit ambitious, but it
sounds clean. It sounds like a union. Actually when you
think about.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
It, it really does. And have you seen some of
the patches that exist online.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
The start the party.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Well y SDP, But there's also circular things that look
so much like a union that say Freight Train Riders
of America around the outside and that you know, and
it just you go, hmm, it feels like I'm on
a movie set, or right, you know, there's another union
hanging out over.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
Here, or I'm at the VFA right checking out people's patches.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
There you go.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
So defenders will tell us this is just another group
of reil writers. You can find people who identify or
associate with the FTR and they say, we have been mischaracterized.
We're a group that looks out for each other, and
a lot of people are making false claims about us.
A lot of people are associating us with crime. But critics,
(22:18):
including law enforcement, we'll talk about several of the law
enforcement investigators here. Critics will argue that FTR is an
extraordinarily dangerous organized criminal enterprise. So what's the truth. We're
going to pause for word from our sponsors, and then
we'll dive in. Here's where it gets crazy, all right, Matt, Yes,
(22:51):
the ft is a real thing. Yeah, there's a considerate
a real thing.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah, there's a Facebook page and everything.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
Yeah, right, a gold standard starring step aside social security numbers.
And that's the real idea these days. I said real
id my cat yelled at me.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
Yeah, Oh well, you can scan it now you.
Speaker 3 (23:14):
Can scan everything. I don't know if it's the right
world to live in, but anyway, the FTRA has been
most active, not solely active, but most active in the
northwest United States and in southwestern Canada. So that's why
you may sometimes confusingly hear a similar Venn diagram term
(23:35):
FTRC that means Freight train Riders of Canada. And it
is so tough to find an origin story for FTRA
that everyone agrees on, partially because it's tough to find
a description of the FTRA that everyone agrees on, and
even now or even in its heyday. Right as far
(23:58):
as reporting investigation goes, railroad spokesfolks were saying, this is
an urban legend. Police are trying to do something that
makes their job easier. But I suggest we go to
Police magazine with an excellent article by Richard Valdemar that
shares one of the most popular origin tales, and maybe
(24:19):
while weld go through it, we can provide a little
bit further context.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh yeah, would you mind if I read a short
little excerpt from that same article. I think it's the
same one November two thousand and seven, okay man, And
this if you read the entire thing, which we highly
recommend you should. It's called The Freight Train Writers of America.
You can find it online. It feels like a hard
boiled detective novel at times, and some of the stuff
(24:45):
in here it has been You said, it's tough to
know what's real and what are just stories being told
around various police departments and sheriff's offices. So this is
what he says, and this is corroborated by some other people,
but they do. I don't know if you found this too, Ben,
They mentioned this specific article often when it's like mentioned
(25:08):
in Wikipedia or something, they'll cite this article, which is
interesting because for all intensive purposes, this is one person
who has experienced writing about it.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Right, I've also seen it. This is why I'm excited
about doing some clarification and contextualization because I've also seen
this article mentioned by people who do not agree with it.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Oh yeah, one hundred percent. So that's that's why it's
kind of h all right, Well, he says, the FTR
is rooted right after the Vietnam War. There's a group
of disaffected veterans who come home. They don't want to
live life the way everybody else wants them to. They
are in a specific bar in Montana. It's the nineteen eighties.
(25:55):
They are, I believe at the time, they're already unhoused,
and they decide they are gonna basically just be a group.
They are gonna work for each other, with each other,
and they're gonna it's a specific railway, right, or a line, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
The Burlington Northern Santa Fe Pacific Railroad line, the high line,
that's right. And this let's pause here because Okay, it's
the nineteen eighties when these guys meet. So they've all
served and survived through the Vietnam War, like so many
other veterans, they're having a tough time reintegrating into a
(26:33):
society that you could argue threw them away through a
great many veterans away. And these are demographically most mostly
white males. We know that for sure. And like you
were saying, Matt, they according to the origin story, they
throw their fates together and they say, let's work together
to essentially improve quality of life for each other, to
(26:58):
support each other, and we're going to share everything, and
we're going to keep it a family show. But they
do mean everything.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, it gets pretty yeah, kind of gross. Talk about
sharing women specifically and stated in that.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
Article violating human rights similar to a one percenter motorcycle gang.
I do want to shout out some internet scuttle butt
and some accounts that again we're going to keep anonymous
from different conversations, and we both have had. The idea is,
if you want to get specific about the origin of
(27:34):
the FTRA, you'll hear people say it started at this
bar in Whitefish, Montana. But you'll hear other people say no,
it's started in Libby, Montana. And you'll also hear that
the original guys were were not criminals. In fact, their
argument is that they were banding together to protect themselves
(27:57):
against violence that environment.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
So let's let's remember our previous discussions of returning Vietnam
War veterans and the varying degrees to which they were
hailed as heroes and or shunned by other Americans who
were on you know, us soil when they returned home,
as well as you know, some of the good things
(28:21):
that were in place by like the Veterans Affairs associations,
as well as the really bad things that promises basically
that were not kept, and just that experience, you can
imagine at least I imagine making an individual pretty angry,
or could has the potential to make someone pretty angry
(28:42):
and fear that they may not have any kind of future. Yeah,
and the.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
We have to also remember the context of Montana at
the time. For years and years, decades and decades we
can say century plus, Montana had been a kind of
haven for what law enforcement would call transient individuals, right,
and again that's law enforcements word, not our own. You'll
(29:10):
often hear people in that community prefer the term traveler.
So the issue was that a few people, a few
bad apples, ruined the bushel for everybody. As a result,
legislation in Montana is passing laws that vastly exacerbate criminal
(29:30):
penalties for stuff such that you don't have to be
if you are an unhoused person, you don't have to
be caught red handed, you know, watching the wheels and
figuring out when to jump on the train. You can
just be sleeping nearby, and then they can put you
in jail for months and months and months, and they
(29:51):
know that you'll probably get acquitted because you didn't really
do anything wrong, but they will keep you in lock
up for that time. Because what are you going to do.
You're gonna get a lawyer. No, you're not not a gomplin.
Speaker 2 (30:04):
Oh yeah. Well and just also quickly, the dangers of
let's say, sleeping in oh man. I think in this
article they were maybe it's in a different article they
refer to them as jungle camps. Yeah, the gibles, but
really just camps that are nearby to a real access point, right.
And but just the dangers of sleeping there that we've
(30:26):
we've seen over time. The police talk about it, the
people who have actually you know, traveled to talk about
how dangerous it can be because literally anybody could be
on that train right coming through, whether they're law enforcement
or not, whatever they are, and they and if their
intentions are bad, you are in an extremely vulnerable position.
Speaker 3 (30:47):
One hundred percent. Yeah. The authorities, uh if you, if
you decide to go to them, may simply arrest you.
It may not help you. Right. And this is this
is an issue that occurred back then and occurs to day.
And I remember something that came up a lot when
I was doing some volunteer work in similar areas there.
(31:07):
The distrust of authorities comes from a very valid and
extremely smart place to be honest with you, it is
a rational and intelligent decision the FDRA, again according to
the scuttle, But here you'll hear that the original crew
(31:29):
did not They were not these super criminals. They weren't
teaming up to be like the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.
But perhaps as a knock on consequence of the loose
nature of the organization or the covenant there, the FTRA
had a new wave of people coming in and these
(31:50):
were more hard cases, These are ex convicts. They start
calling themselves the new FTRA. And that's where we get
to the three divisions. Right by the skanks or the bandanas,
which would be the black bandanas, that's what we're talking about,
the high Line, the blue bandanas aka the wrecking Crew,
and then the red bandanas that are more Southern like
(32:15):
Louisiana to Long Beach.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Yeah, it's really it's really interesting to separate them out
by the southern corridor the Midwest, you know, like it's
interesting to split them up that way. We have heard
stories of people who have ridden the rails, not associated
at all with the FTRA, who state wearing the black
bandana is still a very popular thing in the areas
(32:40):
where the black bandanas are supposedly worn by the FTRA,
which is really interesting and it's a way to associate
yourself with other people who ride the rails, but it
is not specifically gang related.
Speaker 3 (32:52):
Yeah yeah, because again, confirmed members of the FTRA defined
as people who say their members and then get that
confirmed by other people who say their members. That's really
the best you can do on an order chart here,
because it's people connected by a similar lifestyle, and they're
(33:14):
so loosely organized that people do not always agree who
is actually in the FTRA. To that earlier point, it
is a known fact out there that some people will
falsely claim membership for protection purposes, or for intimidation, or
just for bragging rights, just to like sound cool at
(33:34):
the fire, which is not a smart move at all.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Or intimidating to someone that they are worried. Is attempting
to intimidate them, right, That kind of like little thing
that you would say, like watch out, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:48):
Dude, we live in Atlanta. You know, if you're not
if you're not a crip, if you're not a blood,
then don't say you are. It is a really dumb idea.
Speaker 2 (33:59):
Yeah, this is an know. The really interesting thing that
I was having a discussion with somebody about earlier, this
official association with like those two well known gangs, right,
there are smaller gangs that have associations and sets, right,
But then there are other ones that are like claim
association or might say their associated, or wear the same
(34:19):
colors or do that kind of thing, and it's just
it feels like a very dangerous game.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
First of all, my favorite light about that just tagitially
related was from an old eminem song where he says
something like I'm walking through the hood wearing blue and red, Like,
I don't see what the big deal is. It happens,
you know, it's cool. I've been in a lot of situations,
(34:46):
as you know, and probably one of the funniest, weirdest
ones when our office was in a different part of town.
I went into that local Target and I was accidentally
wearing a red shirt and khakis yep, And then a
customer yelled at me.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
Happens to me and best buy with blue all the time?
Really still, yep?
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Do you do it on purpose?
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Now?
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Is it just like discordianism?
Speaker 2 (35:10):
Blue? I'm just wearing blue all the time.
Speaker 3 (35:13):
You're wrapping it? So whatever, the true origin of the
FDR may be. We know that they expanded or things
calling themselves the FTR expanded not just in purported membership,
but in areas of operation to those you know that
rough three categories of regions, and their reputation expanded and
(35:36):
stepped more and more often. People were saying, these are
dangerous men. These are the kind of men you should
never cross and in fact avoid them if you can.
Speaker 2 (35:45):
Yep, yep, that's what I've seen. I have also heard
stories that that FTR members when it was a thing,
and we're not talking very long ago, you just avoid.
It's like, I don't know, it's kind of weird to me,
and it's weird to make this association the way the
(36:06):
police describes them. We joked about it at the top,
like a biker gang basically without bikes. But if you
just imagine seeing a group of people that look not
that friendly, you just do whatever you can. Just I'm
gonna stay away from them as much as I can.
Speaker 3 (36:25):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, never pick the fight, you know what
I mean, Just realize that sometimes the fight might pick you.
And FTRA is full of pithy sayings or attributed to
the group with things like what is it all on one,
one on all, meaning that if you have a problem
with one guy and everybody is fighting and this is
(36:46):
going to be this gets sticky because there have been
revenge homicides between FTR members right for different slights, and
let's go to the crimes. Okay, So again this is
coming to us from the lens of law enforcement, So
there's definite narrative and perspective at play. One of the
(37:07):
most prominent investigators you'll read about and concerning the FTR
is a retired Spokane police officer named Bob Grandanetti. He
had a long career in the law, and after his
experience with rail related crimes and incidents, he specializes as
(37:29):
a retiree in exploring the nature of this group and
the alleged crimes. So in his work, he links a
large collection of criminal acts through the eighties, nineties, and
up to the two thousands, links them to FTR or
folks he believes are associated with FTR. And you know,
(37:49):
some of these crimes honestly are a bit pedestrian. When
we're talking about living off the grid, things like food
stamp and benefit fraud, it's not that uncommon. But then oh,
in theft of course, who doesn't love a good heist.
But then we're talking drug trade assaults, a little bit
of human trafficking, and of course homicide and the most
(38:12):
concerning cases, the most extreme cases concern proven serial murderers.
Speaker 2 (38:18):
Yeah, there are actual human beings that were serial killers
that rode the rails as part of their crimes, as
part of their mo Does that mean they are FTR? Well,
let's find out, because there is one specific person that
kind of matches up with Grandinetti's findings in his police
(38:41):
work as well as kind of the mythos of FTR.
Is this guy named Robert Joseph Silveria Junior. And he's
known by a bunch of other names as well, including
the boxcar Killer. And we'll tell you about him right
after a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
We have returned. Also known as sidecar Sidetrack, boxcar Bob,
boxcar Killer as the media dubbed him, this man is
currently serving double life sentences in Wyoming for crimes that
he does confirm he committed. He was convicted of these
(39:26):
two murders in different states pretty far away. Before he
was convicted of these and incarcerated, he spent more than
a decade and a half, riding the rails and apparently
for his own reports, killing at will. By the time
investigators wrapped stuff up, Silveria had confessed to twenty eight
(39:48):
total homicides scattered across the United States. Right, and he
also well from his argument he was killing the vulnerable
younger people who was also killing older people who already
had government benefits. So the idea is that he was
(40:09):
killing for profit. But he the story still is murky.
What he's saying does not one to one match up
with the results of investigations or even with his own
earlier claims. He himself denied being a member of the
ftr A, so he said he didn't do it, or
(40:29):
he said I'm not in I'm not in this. I
was just riding the rails. But then other people who
said that again we have to caveat it, who said
the ftr A members were like, oh yeah, boxcar Bob,
that guy's a monster. We know him. We pull we
want to pull his patch because of his terrible behavior.
Pulling the patch means expelling someone from that loose.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Organization again, to that to that motorcycle club thing, right right,
that's just the connections are there.
Speaker 3 (40:59):
Do you think he was FTR.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
I I don't know, I haven't found enough on him.
Just there's a lot written about him and specifically about
you know, his crimes and specifics of you know, Roger
Lee Bowman and the human beings that the lives that
he took. But there's not a lot of details about him,
and you got to either trust him or trust the
people that are you know, picked up and talking about him.
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Right Like one book we read for this as Murder
on the Rails, The True Story of the Detective Unlock
the Shocking Secrets of the Box Car serial Killer. That's
by William Palmini, who has first hand experience in the investigation.
So if you want to read more, that is a
fantastic place to start.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Yep. Absolutely, and there are a couple of different ways
that you could become a really well known criminal in
the US. Nowadays, a true crime podcast might get made
about you. Hey, now, you're we all coughed as we
continue making true crime. Back in the day, there was
(42:05):
this little show, while there still is this show and
you can find Payne Lindsay r peal uh the show
right now. Yeah, America's Most Wanted And if you went
on that show, well, you became well known.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
Right, and even if you didn't want to be on
the show, which is weird because a couple of people
who are on that show as suspects they did want
to be on it. They got off on that thing
because you know, they're messed up. But the FTRA is
an organization probably did not care for the shout out,
but they gained national intention because they got that profile
(42:41):
on AMW and Silveria's brutal nature drove that. So his
heinous acts are how the larger public outside of Invisible
America learned about, uh learned about this organization. And then
we have to introduce a couple of other cases. Matt.
There's one that you and I both found. This is
(43:06):
disturbing and it's also heartbreaking because this guy was forced
to ride rails when he was fourteen years old.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah yeah, we're talking about Michael Elijah Adams, right, yeah,
aka Dirty Mike. And this guy claims to have killed
more than sixteen people.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
Yeah yeah. And the interviews that he gives when he's
in lock up are chilling because he says he killed
more than sixteen other people less than thirty, and he
does not have any regrets at all, he is different
from Saveria because he proudly claims association with FTRA, and
(43:53):
he further said he had been taught how to become
a serial murderer by a guy named John dogg Man.
Tony Boris Bors himself was convicted of some crimes. Police
believe he was an FTRA enforcer.
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yeah, yeah, which is I mean, again, it's possible, and
how would we know? But I think maybe that's my
big question, how would we know any of this is
happening if there wasn't some kind of deep surveillance going
on within some of these groups because they can move
so quickly from crime scene to anywhere else, Right.
Speaker 3 (44:34):
There's one hundred percent infiltration. Yeah, it's that's another hidden industry, right.
Maybe the stories about fictional characters going deep cover sound ludicrous,
but it is a real industry with outlaw biker groups
as well, with any any number of suspected games. You
(44:55):
could imagine when the FBI was going too hard on
calling Juggalows criminal enterprise, they had juggalo infiltrators. Can you
imagine how much fun it would be to be the
juggalo infiltrator at the gathering? You don't have to pay
for the ticket. They put you in the helicopter.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
I bet yeah, but they're putting really nice people away.
Probably you probably.
Speaker 3 (45:22):
You shouldn't do it. Yeah, just let them go, you know,
like the cool bulls at the train yard who just say, guys,
just go back on sleep in the jungle, don't do
this on my shift, Which are real conversations that happen,
you know, and a lot of the uh tell us
if you work in the railroad industry, but at least
(45:43):
without getting too specific, in a lot of urban areas,
the rail employees who are not security kind of have
a uh don't ask, don't tell policy. If you're not
making trouble, then I'm not making trouble, you know what
I mean?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah, Well, but they the FTRA allegedly was making trouble,
at least according to reports back in the day, including
pretty major thefts and why don't even know what you
call that, like taking serious amounts of freight off of
trains sometimes other times, like there were a couple instances
where a train was derailed and then an alleged FTRA
(46:27):
member was like found dead in the wreckage and it
caused the derailment like purposefully, but accidentally died in the crash.
A couple other you know versions of that where a
train is stopped purposefully, you know, at a specific place,
breaking bad style. Well yeah, I mean it reminds you
of the trains being robbed on horseback back in the West, right,
(46:49):
and those old tales, but just doing it in a
new way.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
And then the question becomes, are these unified organized acts
by a single group or a group of related communities
or is law enforcement pinning these things together because it's
more advantageous for investigation, you know, that's my big question.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
Might get some dollars pumped into the department.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
Yeah, and maybe some promotions a lot. Wait, let me
get here real quick, so I brush my shoulders satirically,
not seriously, folks. So that you're right, though, Matt. The
headlines of this time period they get pretty shocking themselves.
Ap The Seattle Times could again centered here in the Northwest.
(47:43):
They feature stories with titles like racist Hobos, slave rail riders,
police tracks, gang of Elusive drifters, chase. Yeah, that's from
the nineties, so that's more than heyday. The authorities say, look,
FTR is real. We suspect this group has killed at
least three hundred other folks riding the rails in the
(48:05):
past decade, and we think the group has two thousand members.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Yeah, oh yeah, Well it's striking fear, right. But then
there are also real other serial killers out there that
were fairly recent within history. We're talking nineteen nineties, sometimes
in the two thousands. Back in the nineties, there's this guy,
I think his I think he would say his name,
(48:32):
Angel Maturino Rescindies. I don't know exactly how you would say.
You can look him up. He's linked to at least
fifteen murders, not of just people riding the rails, but
of people who live near railroad tracks, people who were
out near the tracks one night when he happened to
be there, like a pastor and his wife while they're
(48:55):
sleeping at home. Right. So there are real individuals that
are terrifying, that make you feel and should make you
feel the way that that title makes you feel. Right,
But the groups of people that that title is trying
to make you afraid of maybe are non existent in
that way, or at least operate in that way at
(49:15):
one time, but don't exist now. But it's this, it's
to me, it feels like an attempt to make us,
anyone who would read that fearful of the rails themselves
and of any of any possible trip we might want
to take. I don't know. What do you think, then?
Is it a way to just keep people from trying
(49:35):
to do this, from just riding the rails some of it?
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah, it has to be. But I'd say I appreciate
the point that this is simply a convenient circulatory system
for people who want to do evil things. It was
at the time, right, So for obviously law enforcement. I
don't think it's being purposely misleading. They're putting a little
(50:00):
bit of English on the on the billiard ball, but
they're doing that. They're doing that because they genuinely believe
what they are saying, you know, and they're careful to say,
we estimate this many deaths, we estimate this many members.
But it's also it's challenged by an easy analogy exercise.
(50:26):
All right, there are three hundred and twenty three They're
more than three hundred and twenty three US residents, now, right,
that's a lot of people. So if one of those
people travels somewhere else and does a bunch of evilshit,
then does that mean that the President of the United
(50:47):
States co signed it? Does that mean you know, if
there's if there's a guy from Atlanta who becomes a
famous like non consensual foot tickler, like he just busts
into hotel rooms and tickles people's feet because he's weird
and disturbing.
Speaker 2 (51:05):
Hey, where we talked about a guy who did that
very thing.
Speaker 3 (51:09):
Yes, I'm trying to find a non murder example that's
still really creepy. But yeah, if you heard that guy
is like from Atlanta, you would say you would typically
say he's from Atlanta. But if you said he's associated
with Atlanta.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
He's an Atlantean. He's an at Alien.
Speaker 3 (51:26):
That makes all of us look really bad, you know
what I mean? So there is I think a logical
gap there, and maybe that gap comes from desperation, dude,
because the reason they say they're racist is at the
time or reporting, they were saying, we believe some of
these homicides are for criminal gain, some are for revenge,
(51:46):
and some are just racially motivated, because we think these
guys are white supremacist. FDR self identifying members have later
denied this. Of course, no one's going out and saying yeah,
you got me, cop. But we know and this is
something you and I specifically have dealt with in a
lot of investigations on other shows and in personal life.
(52:09):
Police are facing tremendous issues when they're trying to figure
out what happened in these deaths, right, and maybe that
is what drives some of these breathless headlines and some
of these increasingly I'm not going to say exaggerated, but
I am going to say ambitious claims right about size
(52:29):
and level of sophistication or organization. I mean, trade hopping
is dangerous, even if you have deep experience in it.
Folks can be injured. They die every year in the process.
This happens all around the US. And then when you
find the body, depending on what happened, it can be
very difficult to prove whether it was an accident or
(52:50):
foul play. Did that person fall asleep on the tracks?
Did they pass out due to inebriation, did they get pushed?
Speaker 2 (52:58):
You know, so really quick, two scenarios. Right, you're an investigator.
You find a body. It's on the side of the
tracks with on an embankment. Right, this body has bruises
all over it and it's deceased and doesn't have anything
of note on it, like no identifying information, there's no
(53:19):
evidence around. It's just a body there, right. In the
two scenarios one, it's you, right, and you just accidentally
fell off the train when there's an embankment there and
you fell down. All those bruises are due to you
falling and all the debris and the stuff you hit.
Scenario two, you get brutally beaten to death on that
train and then you get thrown off that train by
(53:40):
a group of people. The investigator is going to have
a really hard time proving which of those two scenarios
is true unless there's specific you know, DNA evidence left
behind by a killer.
Speaker 3 (53:51):
Right, did they beat the brakes off of you? Or
did you die do your own negligence or just do
to just an accident of active God if God exists,
I mean, yeah, And that's another point I want to
go to. The second thing that I think is really
important that you're hitting on there is travelers in these
demographics often won't have idea or permanent address. You're hearing
(54:15):
us pass out nicknames or street names for some of
the people we've mentioned. That's not just that's not meant
to be a cutesy, cool or edgy thing that helps
avoid investigators figuring stuff out.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (54:30):
That's why that's why names like this proliferate. And well,
and some.
Speaker 2 (54:35):
Of the people out there might be a child who
is trying to get away from a really bad situation
at home, so they use a different name, so nobody
that they talk to or meet can end up contacting
a parent or you know, an uncle or something that
would be bad news for that person.
Speaker 3 (54:51):
Right, That's something that is tremendously important for us to
hit on because I know we have a lot of
fellow travelers in the audience tonight. Many don't fall for
broadbrush stereotypes saying, oh, here's a rich trust fund kid
who just wants to cause play a very difficult life.
(55:12):
A lot of people are coming from places where they
have no other recourse. They are driven to this existence,
and it is tremendously important exercise, at least in my opinion,
to exercise empathy for that. And you may have met
these people, and you may not have known because it's
their story, it's not ours. But we know back to
this idea about lacking a permanent address, lacking id, whether
(55:37):
through choice or through necessity. Some people can simply be
to borrow the phrase the name of a band I
love Railyard Ghost. They don't really exist on the grid,
so it can take weeks for maybe someone to happen
across a body, per your earlier two scenarios, and therefore
identification could be very difficult. When foul play is suspected
(56:00):
were obvious, let's say, like a bunch of stab wounds
or a gunshot, this means the assailant because it took
so long to find the body, the assailant can already
be in the wind States and states away, you know,
and very difficult to find.
Speaker 2 (56:16):
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah. It really is important to
exercise empathy for every potential angle you could be coming
the story from, right, because those investigators really are like
that person that we talked about at the very beginning
in Police mag Richard Valdemar, when he's writing that story
(56:38):
and talking about all that stuff, he and everybody he's
working with are looking for someone who is serial killing
homeless people in camps, and we're talking dozens of people,
not just a couple, and they are doing everything they
can to find out who that is and to stop
that person, right, and then you imagine just that pursuit
(56:59):
could bring on all kinds of different things that we've
been discussing throughout this episode, right.
Speaker 3 (57:05):
All well intentioned too. And this is the thing. Imagine
how damnably frustrating it must be if you're good police
and you're trying to solve a murder, right, or you're
not even you don't know if it's murder. You're trying
to figure out what happened to this poor kid whose
body was found in the train yard, And then over
(57:26):
and over again, you get stonewalled by your own people
because no one cares. It's a homeless person. Don't have idea,
you know what I mean, This is not a high
value case. And that's also further, I would say, similar
to serial murderers who predate on vulnerable or fringe communities.
(57:49):
That's why those monsters get away for so long, right,
because they're they're killing black people in the time of segregation, right,
They're killing people in the Gate community, in the time
of rampant homophobia. This is a systemic problem. This, I mean,
that's another conspiracy. But right now, for FTRA, law enforcement
(58:11):
will predominantly from the DOJ on down. They will tell
you the FTR is this hidden network of organized crime
operating in and out of states, to quote Dennis Reynolds,
like a demon's whisper. Some rail companies will still tell
you it's an urban legend trying to link on related
crimes for you know, not super ethical motivations or as
(58:36):
members of the FTR a claim it's a decades plus
attempt at character assassination where mutual support group. We're not
wealthy people, Please stop tying us to these evil things.
But where's the group now, Matt? What about the rest
of the folks out there in the box scars, the
grainers and so on.
Speaker 2 (58:55):
Well, okay, so what I've heard scuttle butt that I've
gotten a hold of is that the original FTR members
are you know, older now, like quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (59:06):
Older than seventies. Easy.
Speaker 2 (59:09):
Yeah, But there are other groups of people that are
I don't know how you would stylize them just a
you know, small group of people. They'd be they would
be considered a gang, probably by a police organization, but
there are several out there that operate that. Again, people
tell me you just stay away from those people as
(59:31):
much as you can.
Speaker 3 (59:32):
MM hmm. There are also rules to your point, Matt,
that can apply to many situations, even similarly seemingly dissimilar situations.
One of those is always, in a new environment, realize
that you do not know who you are speaking to.
That person you're speaking to may seem very very cool,
(59:52):
ma seem charismatic, may ask you to do stuff, but
you always need to keep your head on a swivel.
I don't want to encourage the slippery slope of paranoia.
But a new environment is not a familiar environment, and
people people's personas can change on a dime. You know,
it's something, It's something to be very cognizant about. You'll
(01:00:15):
see a lot of advice too, from people with experience
who would say, specifically in the jungle, don't try to
flirt with a lady you don't know because you don't
know who she's affiliated with.
Speaker 2 (01:00:28):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (01:00:30):
Things that might seem disrespectful can have immediate and brutal consequences.
Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
It reminds me of Ki Lawrence aka Kai the hitch
Hiker aka Caleb mcgilvalryo, that dude back in the day
we talked about. There's a Netflix special on him. Guy
that nearly killed Jetsimmons McBride with a what a hatchet
(01:00:55):
I think, or acts or something that he had. It
was a very interesting thing, just how the complexity of
an individual.
Speaker 3 (01:01:07):
Right right, And this is where we have to ask
about the future too. Right now the future looks grim
for the historic practice of ak hobo traveling train hopping
rates have massively dwindled. In twenty eleven, a Highline spokesperson
Gus Malonis said, Look, the FTR and overall traine hopping
(01:01:30):
culture have quote largely gone extinct end quote. But there
are people out there right now who disagree because some
of us may be listening to tonight's show on a train,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (01:01:42):
That would be so cool if you're doing that. Kudos,
But also we do not condone that behavior.
Speaker 3 (01:01:50):
Yes, do you hear us? Hr We did the bit
at the beginning and at the end, so can't get
us anyway. We want to end by thanking everybody who
made this possible, tireless efforts of investigators, rail employees, travelers
who provided Matt and I with first hand accounts of
a world most of the public will simply never see.
(01:02:12):
And I think we also want to take a special
moment to thank travelers past and present that've reached out
to us in our little show over the years, as
well as providing your own insights on tonight's episode. Please
be safe out there. If you have related stories, we
want to hear them. We know anonymity can be mission
critical given the nature of this travel and given people's backgrounds,
(01:02:34):
so if you do decide to reach out to us,
we will do our best to keep your private infos safe. Anyway,
With that, come on over tell us the stuff they
don't want you to know. You can find us online,
You can call us on the phone. You can hit
us up on our good old fashioned email address. Over
on the rails of social media, we are conspiracy stuff,
conspiracy stuff show or some derivation thereof, and over on
(01:02:59):
your telephone keypad we have an address as well.
Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Yes, Style one eight three three stt WYTK. It's a
voicemail system. When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname,
one that nobody can identify you with, and then let
us know within the message if we can use that
name and your message on the air. If you'd rather
use your words in written form, why not instead send
us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:03:24):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we received. Be well aware, yet out afraid. Sometimes the
void writes back. Always like to slip a little Easter
egg in here for our friends who listen to the end.
If you are interested in this episode you want to
learn more about subcultures that exist off the grid, please
(01:03:46):
please please check out our pal, Jake Hanrahan's newest endeavor,
Away Days. It's available now on YouTube. We're friends with Jake.
He's not paying us to say it. He's just great
at what he does as a journal so check that out.
Stay tuned for more announcements of that nature in the future.
In the meantime, join us here in the Dark Conspiracy
(01:04:08):
at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:04:28):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
Hosts And Creators
Matt Frederick
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
Show Links
RSSStoreAboutLive ShowsPopular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.