Cults: Indoctrination and Escape

When most people hear the word "cult," they immediately think of people like Charles Manson, or any number of controversial organizations strewn across the planet -- but what exactly makes something a cult? How do cultic groups acquire new members, and what can we do to help a loved one steer clear of this manipulation? In today's interview the guys join Liz Iacuzzi and Tyler Measom, the creators and hosts of the new Was I In A Cult?, to learn more about how cults work, how people find themselves involved, and -- most importantly -- how they get out.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

They don't want you to read our book.: https://static.macmillan.com/static/fib/stuff-you-should-read/

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.

(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Paul Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you, You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. Today we are diving into the
world of cults, and we know that we have a
lot of fellow conspiracy realists who have their own personal

(00:49):
experience with culture cultic organizations. But as we are wont
to do in this show, we went to some primary sources.
We are not diving into this alone. We are fortunate
to be joined today with Liz Ayakuzi and Tyler Meesom,
the creators of was I in a Cult, a podcast
that we're all big fans of in our personal lives. Tyler, Liz,

(01:14):
thanks so much for coming on the show today with us.
Thank you for having us guys. Thanks guys, we love
your show too. Well, that's good to know you didn't
open up with we hate your shows A good opener. Now, Tyler,

(01:34):
you are an award winning filmmaker. You have so many
titles under your belt. We were talking about some of
these off air things like Murder among the Mormons, an
Honest Liar. The list goes on. Uh, Liz, you are
a actor, You're a writer, you're a comedian, you're a
fitness trainer. You're also, as we were discussing off air,

(01:55):
you have done voice work for some of my colleague's
favorite video games. Matt, did I blow up your spot? No,
you're good. I like Commanding Conquer. Just don't worry about it.
It's cool. It was. It was the later stuff like
the much later Commander game, specifically Commanding Cocker four, Tiberian's Twilight,
if I'm not mistaken, And so we we want to

(02:19):
establish the backgrounds here because was I In a Cult
is a unique show in the world of podcasting, and
I would advance also that it is remarkably distinct in
the discourse about cults or cultic organizations overall. Uh, we

(02:40):
we know what the what the show is. We've listened
to episodes, we quite enjoy them. But perhaps you all could,
in your own words, tell us in our audience a
little bit about what is was I in a cult? Well,
the show it looks at the cultic experience from the
individual person active, which we often don't get enough of,

(03:02):
I believe in media and entertainment. Um, we will cover
the salaceous cult leader, which everybody is always obsessed with,
it seems to be obsessed with. But the show really
takes you on a journey of one person's personal story
getting manipulated into a cult, what their life was like
before that, what their life was like inside the cult,

(03:24):
and then more most importantly, how they got out and
how they rebuilt their lives. And it's a documentary style
in nature, and we use levity as much as possible
because tragedy and comedy I feel there and siters. Yeah,
and it's like medicine, you know, it's easier to swallow

(03:46):
some of the darker stuff when you can bring some
lightness to it. Yeah. I can't imagine it just being
full on tragic, deep dive into the sadness and messed
up things that can occur at least when you get
into a cult like group or maybe a full on cult.
Who knows. That's a question for a little bit down here.

(04:07):
I mean we found we found that, you know, these
situations that these people find themselves in, and now that
they've left, they can actually look back with a bit
of levity and disbelief, and so we're able to kind
of mirror that in some ways, and never do we
poke fun or laugh at the individual, but oftentimes we
will look at the situation in which they were in,

(04:28):
or the situation which they found themselves in unfortunately, and
kind of just look at it with a bit of
a bit of levity and lightness, which I think is
better than forty five minutes of sadness and abuse and
brain manipulation. And I think the show is meant to
be inspirational and hopeful, and you don't really think about

(04:48):
that when you think of a cult show, you know,
because cults are like dooming gloom and like scary, and
you know, I think a lot of times people approach
the cultic world from this sort of heuristic point of
view where you're like, look at all those crazy people
in there, and they're watching it from the safety of
you know, behind their their TVs or whatever they're watching

(05:10):
or listening to, and thinking, oh wow, I would never
be involved in something like that. But I'm fascinated. Our
show debonks a lot of the myths around cults and
what constitutes a cult, and I think it really human.
The goal is really to humanize the cult experience and
to show you, no, this isn't some dumb, lemming, vulnerable loser.

(05:34):
You know, this is you, This is your uncle, this
is your mom, this is your sister, To show you
how it happens, because there are over what Tyler, I mean,
there's tens of thousands, ten cults active in America alone today,
and to expose not just the big cults that everybody
knows by name like Scientology or Nextium is a big

(05:58):
one right now because of everything it just went down,
but also to get into the smaller cults that people
don't realize are cults or um. There's one on one
cults even you know, there's family cults. There's small group
cults that don't get to to make it to mainstream media,
and our show dives into all all different types. Well

(06:19):
what's the thing to you? You say it? You know,
the show isn't doom and gloom um as you might
imagine a cult show would be. But there they wouldn't
work if they were all doom and gloom. There has
to be some attracting element that makes someone stoked about
joining in with this group of people, or they feel
some kinship, or they're looking for something, and it's not
always like broken, destitute or emotionally breast people. They get

(06:43):
taken in by these right. I think the common denominator
of people who joined cults, and some people are obviously
born into a cult. I think the common denominator of
people who joined cults it isn't that they're glassy eyed,
it isn't that they're broken. In fact, studies of shelling
that the people who joined cults aren't mentally unstable. Oddly enough,
it's quite the antithesis of that. People who joined cults

(07:04):
are by and large idealists. They want to make the
borld a better place. They want to make themselves a
better place. They want to get into heaven, they want
to fulfill their dreams. They want to for goodness, say,
they want to learn how to grow crops in a farm,
or they want to just be you know, have a
strong fitness level. And eventually they get taken in by

(07:26):
a a guru or a charismatic cult leader who takes
advantage of their idealism and their dreams. And that's the
sad part that people are being taken advantage of who
really just for the most part want to be good
and it comes from a noble place and immensely appreciate
that distinction. When we had spoken earlier, one of the

(07:51):
things that one of the things that was always a
question to me was what what is the inspiration for
are these two folks to create this show to bring
it into the world, because it always struck me as
just fundamentally different from, say, the more exploitative things you

(08:13):
might see candidly in in um like documentary or what
have you. There is, as you emphasized earlier, there is
this tremendous human moment, and your guests really travel with
you to some harrowing emotional spaces, to the point where
I'm sure many audience members who haven't heard this show

(08:35):
yet I have to ask themselves, do Liz and or
Tyler have experience with an organization that, if not a cult,
could be described as cultic? Sometime you ask everyone this question.
Is maybe it's time you ask yourself this question. Yes. Uh.

(08:57):
In fact, I was in a acting class when I
first moved to Los Angeles early twenties. Um was in
a toxic relationship living with this toxic man, and he I,
you know, I had done comedy in Chicago for years

(09:18):
and commercial work and voice over work for apparently what
did I do? Forgotten all about it? That's true. And
I had moved to l A and sort of was like, well,
what about you know, real acting outside of comedy. I

(09:41):
wonder if I should take an acting class with somebody
who's gonna like push me and you know, be real
with me and get me to my depth and all
of the things actors I think they want, right And
this my boyfriend at the time, was going to this
woman who, for I didn't really get it, but it

(10:03):
was like life coaching, and he was coming home every
night and being like, oh my god, this woman is amazing,
Like she's changing my life. It's so amazing. And she
also teaches this acting class. And he wasn't an actor.
He's like, I really think you should go. Like I
met a bunch of the people in the class. They're fantastic. Go.
So I ended up going to her acting class and

(10:27):
joining the acting class, meeting you know, people I didn't
know anybody in l A and met a bunch of
amazing people. Um, the talent in the room was fantastic,
the people were fantastic and stayed for a few years
and it turned into this self help cult. And then

(10:48):
when I realized there was a lot going on in
this group where it started off as classes and then
she would require you to take a life class to
be interacting class, and then retreats, and it just the
commitment continued in, the financial commitment continued in the emotional
and financial abuse just went crazy. And uh, and my

(11:11):
friend who was in it, we were just like, there's
something off with this environment. And you start to realize,
like all my friends were in this class. You start
to think like, oh, she's having us talk to strangers
at coffee shops about joining this class and the work
and there's now this vernacular used and the whole language

(11:32):
being explored, and you're starting to feel like you have
this secret that nobody else has. And anyway, she sent
me an article like towards the end, and it was
just like literally ten ways you know you're in a
cult from like some magazine and I just read it
and I was like check check check, check, check, check check,

(11:52):
and I was like, oh my god, this is a
fucking cult. And then shortly after I got out of there,
UM did a bunch of research, you know, did some therapy.
Was like, what was that? You know, because I'm from Chicago,
I trust people. I trusted people. Uh l A makes
you a little harder, hardened, And I still trust people,

(12:15):
but I have a much better radar now. And so
that experience really opened my eyes to manipulation tactics which
I wasn't aware of. H I didn't know anything, to
be fair with you, about cults. You know, I was
just as naive as the person that thinks, oh Coults,

(12:36):
Jim Jones, Charlie Manson, you know, like these big scary
environments where you drink kool aid and voluntarily kill yourself.
And uh. In my research and getting out of that
that acting class, realized that cults are way more ubiquitous
than that, and they can they can live in acting

(12:58):
classes that you know, she's since stopped teaching acting. She
went on to become some healer. I mean, she's still
going by the way, guys, this is what I want
to ask you, was she was she just an individual
actor or was she using the same tactics that other
large groups that we know about us er was it
associated in any way. So she her dad was a

(13:19):
famous actor, so she she used that for her cred
a lot. And she studied with a man named Lloyd
Roy London who was I don't know if you know
the acting world at all, but he was a pretty
renowned acting coach for like Gina Davis and that era
of actors um and she studied with him for like

(13:39):
eleven years, and I think she tried to be an
actor herself. A lot of these cult leaders are failed blanks, right,
They do try to make it in the real world.
They you know, look at Charlie Manson, he wanted to
be musicians. I can't tell you how many leaders are musicians.
So many mel Lineman, the Yahwe Group, Charles Manson, so

(14:02):
many of them, the one who's in there's so many,
I can't go. But they want to become from a wild,
wild country as well. That's right, that's right. Cults form
a lot of bands because you can build group mine.
It's great way to sell albums trying to exactly you know,

(14:25):
it's not about thirty if you're not that good at it.
But most importly, this is a legacy Hollywood person basically
when it comes from money that is established in the industry,
that has that cred that you're seeking, and it's an easy,
you know, kind of like way in for you, like, okay,
I can see this is legit. Um, my trust is
in you. And then it's almost like what do they say,

(14:46):
like a crab boiling. You know, you don't even notice
that you're boiling until it's almost too late, and thankfully
for you it wasn't too late. But that's sort of
how these things work, right. It's sort of a slow process.
You don't go in and day one realize oh wow.
It takes a little time and realization. But it sounds like,
you know, this was masquerading as an acting class. And
then eventually, you know, starting to kind of get a
little exactly right, Mr Brown. You know, we say it often,

(15:10):
no one joins a cult. No one is going to
sign up to join a cult. What they joined as
a movement or a church or fitness class, and over
slow indoctrination, planned indoctrination, they eventually find themselves some occult
and then it's really difficult to get out there into
deep and everyone they know and everything they know, and

(15:33):
everyone in the outside is ei either evil or not
up to your standards, and you find yourself stuck there.
And it doesn't mean they're being locked in cages or anything.
It doesn't mean they're being held against their will. They
have essentially become addicted to the cult experience right in
the beginning is the most dangerous because I don't know
if you've ever been in an abusive relationship or if

(15:54):
any of your listeners can relate to that, but I
think we've all either we've been able to touch an
abusive relationship, whether it's our own or sister or somebody
we know. And the the sort of breakdown of how
that happens is very similar to the breakdown of how
you get into a cult. And the beginning is something

(16:16):
called love bombing, right, are you guys familiar with this?
So the love bombing is the most dangerous because that's
the fake part, that's the sweep you off your feet part. Right.
I met this amazing guy and he said he's never
imagined anybody but me, and oh my god, and you
feel this love bombing, but it's doubled down in cults

(16:39):
because it's not just the cult leader. That's love bombing you.
Usually it's maybe even not the cult leader, it's all
of the recruiters. It's all of the people in the environment, right,
aren't You probably could relate even if you go to
like a soul cycle class maybe right, or like on
a smaller level, or some sort of exercise class where
you walking in and then everybody's coming, Oh, you did

(17:01):
a great job. That was great, and you did seventeen
push ups and I only thought you could do thirteen
or whatever it is. It's you get attacked after and
you get praised for the work you've done, and that's
all the love bombing. That's all to like get you
feeling good and coming back tomorrow for the next class.
And I think, then that's that what you were talking about,

(17:23):
that indoctrination process, because that starts to fade, but slowly, right,
So you're getting love bombed, and then one day the
leader might say, yeah, but you were never going to
amount to anything, but you're so this, you're so great,
So then they neg you. So then they say something
that speaks to your innermost fears usually right, and the

(17:44):
way they get to those fears is in the beginning,
they make it. They create this very safe environment that
you feel safe to vulnerably share your fears because you're
watching the other people in the group do the same thing.
So you're like, oh, well, look at her. She shared
this vulnerable thing about her innermost fear, and now I'm

(18:05):
being asked to and I feel safe doing it. But
then they're using that against you later. The cult leader
is Beau's very very manipulative. And additionally, the next some
of the next steps would be things like the moving
goal post. You can do as much as you can,
but it's never quite enough. On this there's always another

(18:27):
rung of that ladder right right, right right. I love
to move the post to when it's doomsday. That's my
favorite goal post. Move. Oh, that's the best one. And
it's you, And it's your fault, followers, it's your fault.
The world did not end in eighteen forty three or

(18:48):
nineteen seventy six or two. Spoiler alert for any cult
members in the audience. It's gonna soldier along. But but
I love what you guys are pointing out about, how
uh you know you know? In our very early conversations
of full disclosure, folks, I am tremendously biased because I

(19:08):
did assist in some of the early days of this show. Um,
when one of our earlier conversations you both introduced me
to this term that we've we've used already on the
air today, cultic organization. Not necessarily a cult, right, because
like you were saying, Tyler, nobody would just wake up

(19:28):
one day and say, I'm gonna join a cult that's
my thing today. Uh, just like a lot of places
that are called cults by outsiders wouldn't describe them as
such ever, or wouldn't describe themselves as such. It's also
that interesting, like not every cultic organization you guys taught
me this is necessarily religious or even ostensibly spiritual in nature.

(19:51):
So we've defined some of the key to the key
aspects of what makes somebody vulnerable to this manipulation or
what kind of manipulation occurs in the course of indoctrination.
But what what would you all say are some of
the key defining traits of a cult or what we
would describe as a cultic organization, what makes them different

(20:12):
from an actual you know, movement. I mean that that
is the age old question. One man's called is another
man's church, right, um, and and and how does one
distinctly define a cult? And it is hard to actually
say this is a cult, and this isn't you know,
this is football, this is baseball. There's a separation between
the two. But cults can be a lot of things. Um,

(20:34):
you know. And some people think full on churches are culled.
Some people think CrossFit is a cult for gonnas. Some
people think, you know, an acting class, how does that
turn into a cult? So it's really difficult to define
what is a cult, But there are some uh tried
and true. Just just so you know, Liz and I,
there are some really great cult experts out there. We

(20:55):
know a bit about cults. We aren't you know, we
aren't the experts on this. We do host to show
about cults. But some of the things that are defining
mensures of a cult, I think is one, they try
to limit the access to the outside world. They don't
want you to listen to anything that's outside. They don't
want you to talk to people who are in the
outside world. And I think one of the most telling

(21:18):
things is when you leave said cult, they kind of
cut you off. They no longer want to be a
part of you, and I think that's one of the
defining features of a cult. Another defining feature is a
charismatic leader by in large one and one person who
is uh for the most party, charismatic individual who uh

(21:40):
you know, controls his or her flock and they pledge
allegiance to this particular individual. Now we have seen a
bit of a variance and cults of late, and it's
been very strange seeing the the the transfer of cults
and the rebirth of cults. Fact that there's new cults nowadays.

(22:02):
Where you know, ten fifteen years ago, if you want
to join a cult, you went to a commune, you
went to a church, you went to a meeting, you
went somewhere, and you got with a group of individuals socially,
and look, we're social animals. We like to be around
like minded individuals like us. But nowadays we've seen this
surge of if you will, internet cults, people who and

(22:24):
it was I think exacerbated by the pandemic, people who
find their similar you know, similar mentalities online. So there
are for example, like Q or Proud Boys or Patriot
Boys or whatever may be, these individuals who um join
this cult and don't necessarily have a leader. The leader

(22:45):
is in fact the ideology itself, which can take many
forms and can can alter all over the place. So
cults are they're tough to define. List. I don't know
if you have your defining Well, just to add to
the I think the leader is important, right, Like, what
distinguishes a woman's group versus a cult that is a

(23:05):
woman's group is I would say the narcissistic, sociopathic, or
leader right, Um, But I think for the individual's experience,
you can't always detect that. So I thinks somebody experiencing
a cult going is there's weird when you start to
feel like your opinions are not valid, um, when you

(23:30):
start to feel like you can't speak out. Um, when
you see something weird and you speak to it and
you get reprimanded, when you find yourself falling in line
right with the yes man. Everybody's like like in my
cul to, there was stuff like she would call somebody out,

(23:50):
like do you see this person stuck in their head?
Right because they're trying to be an actor and be vulnerable,
And then she'd sort of humiliate an individual and then
everybody in the group would have to agree, Oh, I
see that right. So if you start to see this
everybody agreeing and falling in line. Also, when you start
to feel like you're losing your own critical thought, Now

(24:14):
that one's really hard because that's a really slow and
that's really a slow process of the indoctrination process. Uh.
But when you just feel like, Okay, I don't trust
myself anymore, and I'm my intuition isn't being heard. When
you start to feel like your intuition is being stuffed
down or being told as something else, you're probably in

(24:36):
some sort of manipulative, abusive, cultic type environment. Will pause
for a word from our sponsors and then return with
Liz I, Cuzi and Tyler Missum of was I in
a cult? And we're back with the host of was

(24:58):
I in a cult? For me? A picture in my
head from everything you've been talking about right there. Do
you guys think it's possible for a corporate structure and
a corporate culture like of a huge let's say a
massive company like I'm just gonna say like a Facebook
or an Apple where you've got these charismatic leaders that exist. No,

(25:23):
I mean it's not a one to one cult leader
for like a Steve jobs or you know, any of
these other guys necessarily, but there's some similarities that I'm
at least forming an image of in my head when
I think about being yes persons essentially to whatever these
charismatic leaders have to say and what orders they give.

(25:45):
So it is kind of just their role as a CEO,
right or whatever. Anyway, Okay, yeah, what do you think
I think the business world actually there are elements that
can be cultic. I think, you know, it's very similar.
There can be a leader or CEO. They're gonna be
a we want you to join this company. Then you're
kind of stuck in that job and you can't leave.
So I think we as humans, especially in America, are

(26:06):
kind of trained in some aspects for cultic behavior. It's
as simple as going to a store and being told that,
you know, that shirt looks really good on you, you
should buy it. Um, We're trained to obey, we listen.
We're supposed to follow rules, and we're supposed to listen
to our boss, and we're supposed to listen to our
elders and our parents and our superiors, and so in

(26:27):
many ways we're kind of set up for being in
a cultic situation, And yeah, I think businesses can take
advantage of an individual in some ways. I mean, again
a business a person who can join a company and
want to rise the ranks and be good and make money,
and a charismatic leader or a narcissist as be him,

(26:48):
a CEO or guru can take advantage of that and
manipulate that and actually use that person's intentions and idealism
against them to the point where it's just to feed
them and feed their ego. Well, I mean so much
of leadership and like the mentality behind leading a big
organization like that as too. It doesn't matter if what
you say is the truth. In fact, it's better if

(27:10):
you control the narrative by just repeating the same lie
over and over and over again to the point where
people believe it and actually believe it internally, not not
just as like a coping mechanism or a way of
just like getting by day to day. Um. I think
that's true on many layers of business, but specifically with
leadership within a specific organization, especially if you know there's

(27:32):
really bad behavior going on in terms of like you know,
maybe some um illegal business practices or you know, things
like with bear Stearns, and we see with you know,
the collapse of certain Wall Street companies Wall Street organizations.
But I think we see that even just within you know,
a day to day like within it working for a company,
you oftentimes have people using flattery to tell you what

(27:55):
you're doing is great all the time, even if you
know personally that might not have been your best war.
And someone's telling you over and over again that it is,
you start to kind of believe in yourself in this
almost toxic way. I just think it's interesting flattery and fear,
which is another strong tactic of occult leader. You know,
the cold leader is going to show up, and you
don't know if they're gonna love you or hate you,

(28:16):
if they're gonna scorn you or kiss you, and so
you're always kind of on edge. And I think bosses
can do that as well. I do think, you know,
and we've heard a lot about this, the great resignation,
people leaving jobs and not taking normal corporate jobs anymore.
And I think it's kind of nice. And I think
there are a lot of people who are leaving religions
and recognizing I don't need to be told what to do,

(28:39):
and so there might be a kind of awakening against
those individuals who want to control us and use fear
and flattery to keep us in our place. And I
think it's mad. I think it just is how much
that leader knows how damaged they are, honestly, because I would.
I think it's fair to say ninety nine percent of

(29:02):
cult leaders are are very damaged, and a lot of
them have a lot of ironically weird sexual traumas as children.
So there's they're they're they're already coming from a mentally
ill point standpoint. They're not they want to be cult
leaders if they if they were healthy, right, So if
you have that charismatic uh CEO who is also quite

(29:26):
damaged and looking to fulfill blank, then that can go
into dangerous territory. I mean, I would call Jeffrey Epstein
a cult leader. That's a full cult I'd call r.
Kelly a full cult leader. So I just think it varies.
And I bet we could break down a lot and
that of corporations and figure out the cult within them.

(29:47):
And you know, one thing that also stands out here
in this conversation is that it's very easy for somebody
with the benefit of being outside of a personal experience
to think I'd never I'd never fall for that, or
I'd never find myself in that situation. Um. But there
was something I was thinking about in preparation for our

(30:09):
conversation today, which is that is there not kind of
a cult out there for everyone? It depends on where
you are in life. It depends on what what the
nature of your idealism may be and how it could
be leveraged, perhaps against you. I think that when you're

(30:29):
naming specific examples of cult like organizations, it's not just
corporate America, It's it's any community endeavor could be twisted
by somebody who wants to impose cultic behaviors on well,
let's say people, people who are innocent, you know, if
if any sin, any sin they committed, if sin there

(30:52):
was was simply the quote unquote sin of trusting someone,
especially at the beginning there, Um, how do you parse this?
Do you see commonalities when you're when you're speaking with
the folks that you all are interviewing, Do they do
they seem to have stories with almost the same beats

(31:13):
or is each one in its own unique case? Yeah? Again,
for in our show, we you know, we we talked
to one individual, and we interview them for hours and
we you know, we can press that down and added
it down to a nice sizeable listenable you know, our show.
And they go through the entire story of their their childhood,

(31:34):
they're joining the church or religion or cult and um,
and then you know their life within the cult. And
I do think there is there are a number of
similar similarities, and they are idealists. A lot of times
when people join cults, there's a transition phase. They just
went through a difficult breakup, they just moved, they're poor,

(31:55):
they you know, they need something. Oddly enough, it's not
just poor people. In fact, cults don't want everyone thinks
cult wants sheep and followers and workers, and they do,
but by and large, cults want cult leaders want uh
type A personalities. They want smart, hard working go getters.

(32:16):
Because for the most part, cult leaders are fucking lazy.
They just don't want to do anything, so they have
other people do it for them. And and rich people
are actually very prone to joining cults, especially those who
were inherited money, because they don't feel like they deserve
this kind of money, so they have to give it
to a good entity. And you know, a nice endeavor.

(32:39):
So really it's it's kind of hard. The people we've interviewed,
by and large are creative, they're they're smart, they're go getters,
they're they're interesting, unique individuals who really just wanted to
make the world a bit of a better place and
got taken advantage of. But what's also interesting is outside
of all that, the way they get in is very subtle,

(33:04):
and it's usually a friend, a friend saying, Hey, there's
this really cool book club I'm in, or this presentation
or this class I've been taking. You should come. I
think you'd really like it. It's that little like and
and think about your own group of friends, right you
You all sort of gravitate towards the same things you have,

(33:26):
things you're interested in. It's why you're friends in the
first place. Um, because you have commonalities and that's comforting
and that feels good. And that's what's been most interesting
to me, is like it's a family member or a
friend doing the recruiting. And that's why cults are so dangerous,

(33:46):
I think, because you trust your friends and you trust
your family members, and you you would never think this
person would set me off in this dangerous environment and
most of the times the recruiter doesn't know that they're
doing at at the time. Well, I want to talk
about Well, there's so many topics you've covered. I'm looking

(34:06):
through this things that we've talked about recently on this show,
like Jehovah's Witnesses. Um, we talked about Nextium at length.
I'd see here that you you interviewed someone named Jessica
Joan about Nexium. I'd love to go into that, just
maybe get some of the perspective that she brought to
that same conversation, like how she got in, uh, maybe

(34:29):
how she got out, Just some some things you learned
from her about Nexium. She she was a remarkable story
and a remarkable storyteller, and she's a remarkable human quite bad. Yeah,
she's a badass. And she had a very interesting and
unique childhood. And I think there is in some aspects
of commonality among people who join. They may have mother

(34:51):
issues or father issues, or didn't get attention or love.
I I'm generalizing or I'm not, but there is there
There can be that she had a unique childhood and
that her you know her her mother was arrested and
her father ran a major drug smuggling organization, making and
selling and transporting drugs across the country. So she had

(35:14):
a very unique childhood and she just wanted to search
for something. She was looking for something. She got into
the party world, uh in l A. And she realized
that didn't feel good, and I need to work on myself.
So coincidentally, someone said, hey, you should come to this
little workshop. It's a self help group. And she goes
to a nice little self help group and they make

(35:35):
her feel good and they tell her they can they
have the keys to the kingdom and they can make
her world better. And then recruiters jump on her and say,
you have to sign up today, sign up for this class.
Sign up today, and if you sign up today, you
get a discount. And we have to look for that
in this world, folks, sign up today, get it now.
If you get it now, you get off, you get off.

(35:56):
You know. In hindsight, she even said, go home, think
about it. If you're going to make a major decision
of financial or personal, do some research. And for going
to say, research is not difficult to do in in
today's world. It's on your phone and your hand. But
she signed up. She basically signed up and the class

(36:16):
and signed up for the class. And then what was
interesting about her story too, is that she got a
lot out of these classes. In the beginning, I mean,
her life was getting better. She was she felt like
she was progressing and thriving, and it was giving her
things that she had never been able to get, especially
in regular therapy. This was like a deeper experience of

(36:42):
that for her, and she felt good um for a
long time. And then she was silent, slowly being indoctrinated
by Alison Mack, who, as we know, because you guys
know Nexium, was the right hand of Keith and who
was running the vow. And that's how she got into

(37:07):
the vow. But you'll have to hear the episode to
hear what happened. We don't want to go too deep,
but she did get into the club and the inner
sanctum of this. And I mean, Keith Raniery is a
piece of work. I don't think he I think he's
the most dangerous cult leader in existence. Possibly I think
he's one of the most. I don't know a more

(37:28):
dangerous cult leader than him, to be honest. But she
did work with the FBI to help take down that pastor,
so it's a good episode. It's a great story, and
she's she's able to tell it with a lot of levity,
and she's um. You just feel how strong and empowered

(37:49):
she is from the experience, and that that's what I
think is really important too, to show that these people
aren't just broken. You know, they're actually thriving and better
off a lot of the time from from doing the
healing and learning. And you know, just like any traumatic
experience anybody experiences or goes through. And we'll take a

(38:09):
quick break, here, will be right back and we've returned.
We hear so much about these you know, kind of
pyramid scheme situations or where it's all about building people
out of money and that's the end game. Have you
run across anything you might describe as like a benevolent

(38:29):
cult that really just thrives on people's attention. Isn't always
trying to get money out of them? Or maybe there
isn't necessarily an entirely toxic end game, Like maybe there
is a cult that works for people. Like what differentiates
like a movement or like a self help regiment from
a cult. Is it always that in the end there's

(38:50):
some toxic knife twist or rug pole or you know
something else. I think that that is your definition, right.
There are a lot of good groups that are thriving
doing exactly what they set out to do, and their
intentions are pure. I think the reason it's called a
cult is because of all those other factors. So sadly,

(39:12):
I don't think you're ever going to find a well
intentioned cult. You might fellow find a well in contention
self help group, or a well intentioned church, or a
well intentioned blank but when it gets into the cult word,
that's I think, much like individuals, no one joins a cult.
I think I can't say that. No leader says I'm

(39:34):
going to start a cult. But I think in many
ways people say they want to start a church, or
I do want to start a self help group because
I do think I have knowledge that I can impart
to individuals. Um I mean the Jim Jones Church, which
eventually ended not so well. That was in the sixties
in San Francisco, a great church that was a SegReg

(39:56):
non segregated religion that actually did do really great things
for the community and for individuals, and then it just
went a little too far. So I think narcissistic cult leaders,
you know, starting to believe themselves, and they start to
get a little bit to uh to engrossed in what
they're doing, and then they they too locked themselves off

(40:18):
from the community, and they too locked themselves off for
many outside sources or outside voices. Then they begin to
believe their own magic. Certainly where the phrase drinking the
kool aid came from, right, technically, but I think it's
it's a very valuable turn of phrase. I think everyone

(40:39):
understands what it means. I mean, I'm I'm a strong
believer in therapy. I think it's important to try and
better yourself. I think it's important to try and learn
something new, or to chase your dreams, to join an
acting class, to join a fitness group, to join something
that makes you better. Just a make sure that it's licensed.
There are those that think therapy is a cult, though,

(41:01):
there are those that think, you know, organized psychotherapy. I mean,
obviously that was a big part of scientology, was backlash
against therapy. But I mean, you will this is a
silly example, but if you watch the show Ted Lasso,
he is very anti therapy for a while, and there
are people like that, then you can say, oh, No,
these are people that are just in it for the money. Um,

(41:21):
they're overcharging, it's absurd, and they're really not doing anything
for me, but like big upping their own egos and
I'm not I'm being Devil's advocated to say. It is
a tricky area where one person's cult is another person's
self help or self actualization. And there are cultic therapists also,
so that stitch is tricky. I think, you know, like

(41:44):
Nexian for example, they actually prided themselves and Keith Rnery
prided himself on not being therapists. We don't do what
therapists do. But the fact of the matter is is
therapists are license, they're good at what they do, and
they train for that. So, I mean, look, one thing
we wanted to do with the show is to make

(42:06):
people aware that cults are prevalent. In fact, I think
they're more prevalent today than ever. Um, and they can
get you. And everyone says I wouldn't join a cult.
I wouldn't join a cult. I but it can happen.
Society has enabled it and and cults are very good
at getting you in. They're very good at making sure
that you joined and that you don't leave, Yeah, right,

(42:31):
Hotel California, and so on. I believe is a reference
that there's there's something I wanted to I wanted to
bring us to at some point our conversation that has
particularly impressed me. And it's something you've hit on a
couple of times already, which is I I was profoundly

(42:51):
impressed by not just the amount of levity that you
will all bring to these challenging and at times honestly
heartbreaking conversations, but there's something that always tickled me, which
is that that Liz, you and Tyler have this pretty
delightful habit of ribbing each other at times, even when
you're even when you're doing you know, just like intersted

(43:14):
interstitial voiceover. And it leads to a conversation that some
of us were having a number of months ago, which
is simply put this, how do you navigate humor in
a show like yours? How do you use humor and
laughter in a helpful rather than derogatory or mocking manner?

(43:35):
And and and to what degree did you calculate that versus? Uh?
Did it come out organically? Um? I think Tyler and
I have a similar sense of humor, which uh, came
about organically when we started working on this project. I
as a writer. I'm a comedy writer, and I I
like to take dark subjects and bring humor to them.

(43:58):
It's sort of where I go instinct. Really, I've always
believed that, you know, it's a it's a way to
digest the harder information. It's why late night TV, you know, exists.
That's why they do the monologues and they're talking about
the news and maybe like we were there was Kuwait

(44:18):
was bombed. But he's adding a joke to it so
that you can swallow it and don't want to kill yourself, right. Um.
John Oliver does it really well in his show, you know,
he's it's he takes really really dark, intense subject matters
and it's comedy. Um. I've always been drawn to that
kind of way to digest information personally, especially really intense information. Um.

(44:43):
And I think it. I think the feedback, especially from
the guests themselves, have been the most satisfying. They are
so grateful to to be part of a show that
isn't so like got you poor people, and you know,
we're just we're it's just us in a room talking

(45:06):
about yeah, some hard stuff. Happens, But that doesn't mean
it has to define you. It doesn't mean that you
have to live in that trauma anymore. You know, the
people were talking to are are healthy, They've come out
the other side, and they're healed. And hopefully that is
showing that people don't People can heal from trauma and
laugh about it and have fun and still enjoy life.

(45:28):
I think to actually just to continue to live in
the sadness of what has ever happened to you is
not the show that Tyler and I wanted to make.
So how do we do it? I don't know. How
do we do it? I don't know. We're still figuring
it out. But um, I think just from also just
a storytelling sense. Um. In my films, I learned very

(45:49):
early my first film with Sons of Perdition, and it
was about kids who are kicked out of a polygamist cult.
Sixteen year old fifteen year old boys who were you know,
in a in a in a Mormon polygamoust cold and
then one day they're just to into the curb and
they don't have mommies, and they don't have daddies, and
they don't know anything about the outside world, and We
showed an early cut of it to these filmmakers, and

(46:09):
the best piece of advice I've been given at that
time that's really moved my career is um have a
funny scene, show a bit of happiness, because it's so
sad that it's hard to swallow. But also the sad
makes the happy happier, and the happy makes the sad sadder.
And in many of my films Murder among the Morments,
for example, we have a scene that is a laugh

(46:31):
out loud, silly scene of if you haven't seen that
guy shooting guns and you know, driving around in the
desert and just being you know, dipshits. But and that's fun,
and it may feel a little bit out of place.
But later when there's actual violence with the I don't
want to give it away, but when there's actual violence,
um with those kind of weapons, it shows the heaviness

(46:54):
of it, the weight of it, because you've seen the
other side of it, you can now see the despair
of it on one end. So I think it's important
to storytelling to kind of show the balance between happy
and sad. Yeah, I think with our guests too, were
very cognizant that this is trauma. And the one thing

(47:15):
Tyler and I have said from the beginning is we
are not here to re traumatize anybody. That's not what
this show is about. And if if they're too raw,
too freshly out of the cult, unfortunately they can't be
on our show because we just don't want to re
traumatize people. But we we we take our cues from
our guests, and I mean most of our guests are

(47:37):
laughing a lot through it. I mean, then there are
the moments of we we hit on that core experience
and then we give it the breath you know that
deserves when it's serious and it's sad. Uh. Then we
let that that live in its space and give it
its give it its space. But then we might make

(47:59):
a joke to bring you back to you know, it's
like a palate cleanser, and you can take a breath
after hearing about some deeply sad sexual experience. It's hard
to you know, frankly hard to hear. It kind of
reminds me of like the time that I've probably been
the most star struck on this show in the history

(48:19):
of being on this show is when we talked to
Mike Render from the Church of Scientology, and that guy
is hilarious, Like he is just absolutely self aware. He
knows what he was, he knows what he is. Um
he is open as you could possibly imagine about, like
I mean to the point where we had to like
vet it with legal to make sure we don't need

(48:41):
to get in trouble because he would just you know,
tell all. But he had that same levity just around
you know, he's talking about some really traumatic things and
obviously would get serious, but he had that uh, that
hindsight and that ability to kind of like that you're
describing what's someone that's truly disconnected, you know, from from
that cult. And it was just such a remarkable conversation.

(49:01):
And it really does to me describe what you're describing
in someone that can truly take a step back, um
and laugh at themselves a little bit. We have an episode.
It's a two parter. It's about a woman named Joe
Anne and she joined this really strange, weird polygamous cult
down in the central Utah and the things that she
talks about and the funny things they did, it is

(49:23):
hilarious her life and what she did. And she looks
back at it like I can't believe the incredulousness of
me doing a seance, you know, in me burning my
underwear and marrying you know, having to making roast beef
for Jesus, is coming coming back that night and having
to you know, be in a barn and Okay, the
marriage of her husband to another woman like it just

(49:45):
it's ripe for for comedy. So and with her she
wrote a book called It's Not about the Sex, My Ass.
So she already wrote a very funny book, uh and
told her story with a lot of levity. So we
had a just as much fun with that episode because
she allowed she allowed it. And that's I love what

(50:05):
you're pointing out about the sharp relief that we see.
We see these situations put in, you know, the humor
and the heavy uh coexist and complement one another, and
I think it makes the experiences of these people more real.
Two for for folks who are outsiders who are hearing this,
because now it's not some victim on some true crime show.

(50:26):
It's someone who is just as human as anybody else
you would meet at the grocery store. And when when
we're talking about this, we're talking about human moments. Um,
we can only unfortunately, assume that some of the people
in the audience today have a loved one who is
in a cultic organization, especially since, as you pointed out, Tyler,

(50:49):
the pandemic has done a lot for Q and on.
That's just one example. Um. We also may have some
folks who are starting to have second feelings about an
organization they joined that they were quite excited about. So
with that, I think one of the most important questions
we have to ask is for everyone listening today, do

(51:11):
you all have any any just quick and dirty tips
the dues and don't for people who are concerned that
someone close to them maybe falling prey to these predatory organizations.
And you know what, how do you engage with these folks?
How do you how do you talk to them or
voice your concerns without alienating them? You know. One of

(51:33):
our our next episode that we will launch is with
a cult expert, Yanya Um and she goes over you know,
she's it's not She also was an occult in the sixties,
very radicalized democratic cult um. But she also has become
an expert and she talks about and the seventies. She
talks about how people join and also why they stay

(51:57):
and how why we shouldn't scorn p well who who
were in occult? But she says, in order to if
your family members in it, like if if they're falling prey,
then I think that's one thing. But if they're in it, unfortunately,
there's not much you can say. You just got to
keep loving them and and talking to them about other things,

(52:21):
reminding them of the life they had before this environment.
And I will say, I don't know from my personal experience,
and just people have spoken to you can plan a seed. Right.
You might say something to your uncle who is in
one of these groups, and he may never talk to
you for five years, but when he finally gets out,
he might say to you, you know what, you said

(52:45):
this thing to me five years ago, and at this
point you don't even remember what he's talking about because
it was five years ago. But you planted that right exactly.
But you planted that seed and it sticks with them.
So I'd say, plan a seed if you can. Um,
it might take years for this family member to actually

(53:07):
see the light. And unfortunately there's not much you can
do but say your piece and um and hope for
the best. Yeah, maybe I think it's the same thing
with you know, if you had a sudden daughter, child, mother, whatever,
sister who was you know, a drug addict. You can't

(53:28):
force them out of anything. You can't tell them what
they're doing is wrong, because that may actually push them
further away. I would say, consult a book, consult a therapist, consultant,
expert of the best way I can get my loved
one out of said environment. And there's also just there's
also just groups where you can go to just talk

(53:49):
about it, and there's support groups for people that have
family members and cults. I mean, it's just feel like
there's a divisive like political climate right now. Even someone
who isn't full queuing on might still feel very aggressively
um combative or feel like they need to or deserve
to be heard in that way, uh and just won't

(54:11):
back down. So the idea of changing the subject doesn't
really work. You know, at family dinners, if you have
that uncle that is just just just coming at you
knowing you know what your buttons are, you know, or
what your boundaries are, and then completely trampling all over them.
So it almost feels like with some people, you gotta
cut people off if they won't respect you. Know your
boundaries are, like where you're willing to go in conversation,

(54:34):
because there's some people you just can't. You know, there's
a line on the sand, and if you're going to
cross that line, you're just gonna be in a fight. So,
I mean, do you have any thoughts around that, like
with the holidays coming up, and it's a tough one.
I don't know. I'm obviously speaking from a little bit
of personal experience. It's tough. It's tough, right, you know.

(54:55):
I think we have we have a divisiveness in this country,
and like we have seen and Yeah, talks about that,
she's never seen this kind of divisiveness before, and in
some ways it just becomes easier. Like my shitty advice is,
I just don't go to Thanksgiving family. If you to
Thanksgiving Giving with your family, And that's terrible advice because
I think if someone does join a cult, they need

(55:16):
to be alerted of that. Look, I was raised as
a Mormon, and I've left the church and my family
is all Mormon, and I don't believe what they're doing
is right, and they don't believe what I'm doing is right,
and it's very difficult for me to even bring up
how I feel or difficult to bring up actual facts
about the faith of Mormonism and the history of Mormonism

(55:36):
without them pooh pooing it and immediately saying that's not true.
So I don't know what it is how to do it.
I have no idea. I think the worst thing we
can do is what we're doing, which is just staying
in our own little bubble and not communicating with our
friends or family that do have different beliefs than us.
I mean, I think, I think, yes, if they're crossing

(55:59):
boundaries and they're now attacking you, then correct, you should
stand up for yourself and do what it takes to
take care of yourself. And if that means cutting them
out of your life for the time being because they're
too radicalized, that makes sense. Um. But I think, as
the person with the knowledge and the person on the
outside of the cult experience, if you can try not

(56:24):
to judge them and realize they're brainwashed there, this isn't them,
this isn't their opinions. They have been manipulated into something
and the brainwashing has ignited. And if you can just
hold a space of empathy for the person that you

(56:46):
know they really are, and just hope they find themselves again.
And when they do, you can be like I never
left you, man, like I'm I'm here, but I had
to leave you for this amount of time because of this,
and I'm sorry. But I think if you can just
sort of reframe your experience of them, it can help

(57:07):
just to like not engage when they attack. That's fine,
you know, do your thing, your brainwashed right now. And
I can't. I can't help you. And that's the hardest thing.
I think as a friend or family, when you when
there's nothing you can actually do, or you can just
throw a turkey leg at him during Thanksgiving, be less

(57:28):
compassionate than that, right, And I think that's a powerful message.
And perhaps that's where we end today's conversation. Liz Tyler,
thank you so much for spending time with us today.
Thank you for your insight and perspective. As we said,
was I an occult is A powerful show is out

(57:51):
now wherever you find your favorite podcast, we'd love for
you to listen to it. Uh. If you are in
the audience with us today and you have an experience
that you would like to share, you can always contact us.
We'll tell you how to do that at the end
of the show, But for now, Tyler Liz, where can

(58:11):
people learn more about your work as a show and
as individuals? I mean, I'm I'm relatively amish when it
comes to social medias. I really need to get better
at it. But I'm in. My instagram is at Tyler
me some. But also, you know our show obviously you
can get it anywhere. We're also you know, if you
if any listener has had a cult experience or has

(58:33):
been in and left occult, we'd love to hear your story.
We're always from great storytellers. You can email us at
cults at I heart media dot com. You can also
call our hotline cult ish uh and you can also
direct d M s Baby. Our instagram is at was

(58:53):
I an occult? But yeah, get in touch with us.
We we want to tell your story. And my personal
instagram is the Ayakuzy. That sounds like a cult to me.
I don't know what, don't I only have followers on
my page, that's everybody on Instagram, and we as always

(59:17):
want to hear from you folks. What do you think
about the state of cults in modern America? Have you
or someone you know been taken in by a cultic organization.
If so, when did you realize what was happening? How
did your loved one or you get out? We can't
wait to hear your story. We try to make it
easy to find us online. Oh indeed, you can find

(59:38):
us all over the internet. We are on Facebook, YouTube,
and also Twitter under the handle conspiracy Stuff. We're also
on Instagram Conspiracy Stuff show. And Hey, whilst on the internet,
why not navigate your browser or I device over to
Apple Podcasts and leave us a favorable review because you
know that you feel favorably about us. It helps people

(01:00:00):
find the show, um, and it makes us all feel
really good in our heart of hearts. Yes, uh, buddy.
If you don't want to do that, you can use
your mouth to go through your phone into our ears.
You can call one eight three three s T D
W y t K and leave us a voice message.
Please do that. It's a lot of fun. You have
three minutes you can say whatever you want to. Please

(01:00:22):
give yourself a cool nickname just for anonymity sake. And
if you've got too much to say that won't fit
in that three minutes, why not instead send us a
good old fashioned email our addresses conspiracy at i heart
radio dot com. Stuff they Don't want you to Know

(01:00:55):
is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts
from my heart radio, visit the i heart radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.