June 20, 2025 • 59 mins
Nowadays, the "C-word" can be pretty tricky. The word "cult" is usually applied by outsiders toward some group of individuals existing in opposition to a larger society. Most times, these folks are harmless -- eccentric, perhaps, but not dangerous. In fact, we often don't hear about them until they cross a threshold into violent, criminal acts. In tonight's episode, Ben, Matt and Noel explore more cults you've never heard of.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fagan, and our cult leader.
By the way, most importantly, you argue you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
Fellow fans, friends, neighbors, conspiracy realist, enthusiast of all things
cult ish, Welcome back to our continuing fascination, which we
(00:53):
hope you share. Cults you have never heard of before
we begin just here at the top. I'd love to
ask you guys. I don't know if we discussed it previously,
but what's something that you all have personally experienced that
felt at some point, either in the present or in
retrospect cultish.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
I've certainly mentioned this before.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
I saw just briefly say that I was once friends
with a bunch of high faith people and that is
classified by some as a cult. But we're going to
get into what that actually means. And we've talked about
all this before. I thought they were lovely people. I
didn't participate in it in that way, and I found
it just to be a great way of getting together
with some nice folks. But I'll tell you what I
recently kind of associated that with is like big K
(01:37):
pop and jpop, like boy bands and like just like
the hand movements and all of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
It feels hellicultish to me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Swifties as well. Totally what about you, met.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I can't think of anything outside of the United Methodist Church.
I lived in a commune, but it wasn't there wasn't
really religious undertones, Yeah, not really. Yeah, we did have
this saying that was all things in moderation. That was
(02:10):
the cult of moderation. Just anything and everything as long
as you're safe and careful and everybody's happy.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Reminds me of dead Press, all things of moderation, even moderation,
which I thought was clever. And as some of us
know from this or other shows, I once upon a
time got deep with some Mennonites in Central America, primarily
for their bakery. That's how they got me in.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
There's a Mennonite community in my hometown in Augusta, Georgia,
and they had a lovely bakery with these little ham rolls.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Boy oh boy, delicious stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
So why are people calling all these outsider groups cults?
Will pause for a word from our sponsors and then
we'll get into it. Here are the facts, all right.
It's no secret that our show man, the United States
at large finds the concept of cults endlessly fascinating, and
(03:07):
we've done a lot of work in the past on this.
We've got videos How to Start a Cult is a banger.
You can find some cameos from our colleagues, Jonathan Strickland,
I want to say, also Tyler Klaying and the legendary
Chuck Bryant. Who else do you have in there?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I don't remember. I know we did a podcast version
of that episode that was in twenty fourteen about cults
you had never heard of way back then. We've been
talking about these organizations for a long time, and we.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Had a lot of fun with our series on companies
started by cults, using the word fun loosely there. But look,
we know this. The C word is usually not a
self describer. Critics are the ones outsiders, are the ones
who call a group a cult. The basic definition is
(04:01):
just that a group often but not always small, and
they're devoted to a person, an individual, or an idea
or a philosophy.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
You guys, there's this really cool clothing line that they make,
like kind of like B movie horror movie shirts and stuff,
and it's called cult of Cults, and that I think
describes where we're coming from.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
We're in the cult of cults.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Interesting, Yeah, because it is interesting, because that's an excellent
milestone for us to measure how the definition expanded. Right
when previously recorded, we noted that historically this was an
insult applied to what you could call non compliant religious groups,
(04:44):
organizations that had some existed with some degree of opposition to,
or divergence from the dominant spiritual, socio religious practices of
any society.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Splinter groups, if you refer to the ones descending from
I guess they often can become antithetical to what they
came from, or become like almost a protest against that
in and of themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We should do a we should do a special mini
series that would last for a decade if we published
once a week of all the people who woke up
and said, oh yeah, I read I read the Bible,
or I read you know, the Koran, and it turns
out I'm the prophet. This whole book is about me.
(05:28):
I've actually Jesus because I'm so humble. But yeah, also,
let me sleep with your wife.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Oh all the women can only sleep with me now, hahaa. Yeah,
that's it, God told me. That's That's a pretty common thing.
It's also very common for any new group, like any
new religion, if it's formed at any time, like basically,
(05:53):
what would you guys say from the twelve hundreds on,
any new religion is generally labeled as a cult.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, and the idea here of the real estate and
the context is super important. I think we lose that
often in modern evenings. A cult can partially be defined
by the society in which it functions. So just for
a cocktail napkin example, you know, let's say we start
a Buddhist monastery, and we start it in a part
(06:25):
of the world that is predominantly Buddhist, we're just another
monastery unless we get super weird with it. But if
we go to medieval Hungry and we start a monastery
there in Central Europe dedicated to Buddhism, then the non
Buddhist locals might look around and say, Okay, these guys
are a cult and maybe devil worshipers because I don't
(06:46):
see a cross.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Oh yeah, for sure. Just in that idea, you think
about the cult of Mithrusts that originated from you know,
ancient Roman times. But it's a group of people worshiping
somebody that isn't generally worshiped right, right, for some deity
that isn't the same as everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Else, right, And if they tip the demographic scales and
Mithris becomes a more popular deity, then they're no longer
a cult. Now they're the law of the land. In
that time, I mean, for thousands of years, saying something
was a cult had none of the negative connotations it
has in the modern era. Were talking about Mythris. It
(07:27):
used to be kind of a flex in ancient Mediterranean societies.
To join a mystery cult are the skull and bones
of their day. The elite and the initiated are are
super secret agents. They definitely got up to socio political
conspiracies and snannigan's, but they were not seen as inherently
(07:48):
evil or dangerous. Side note, they were not seen in general,
which is why we still don't know a ton of
details about them or whether they continue in the modern.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Day, right, And the way we usually find out is
we find some hidden underground temple that was a basement
that somebody who had a lot of money or you know,
with the money from the group, turned into a temple.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
You hear the word esoteric thrown around a lot when
it comes.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
To the right of esoteric beliefs, meaning beliefs that are
not the commons.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Got weird.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, But then again, like that's even that as a
term that is relative, isn't it right?
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Depends on which side of it you're on.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Esoteric can also be levied as a bit of a
thought terminating cliche.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yes, yeah, And when we're using that term esoteric, it
is real, Like sometimes sometimes the beliefs are just strange.
We talked we haven't yet talked about this guy, August engelhawked.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We've done that, this dude who.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Was born in eighteen seventy five that ended up with
a lot of inheritance and had some ideas about coconuts,
specifically some ideas that coconuts, because they're shaped like a
human head, are the ideal food for humans, so we
must eat only coconuts, all coconuts. Coconuts are basically the
answer to everything. And he created a religion and used
(09:14):
his inheritance to buy part of an island where he
started a cult about coconuts and nudity.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I have to add this island did was home to
indigenous coconuts.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It have to be to be a selling.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yes, yes, yes, out there by the Solomon Islands between
the Solomon Islands and New Guinea.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
And he northeast or northeast of Australia for any right
without a map, handing yes.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And he authored a book, you guys. The title is
a care Free Future, The New Gospel, Glimpse into the
depth and distance for the selection of mankind, for the
reflection of all, for consideration and stimulation.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Sorry, all other spherical produce you lost you were why
like ahead those hairy.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Orbs of mystery and wisdom.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Please do check out our upcoming episode of Ridiculous History,
which will be all about Angle Heart, starring a cameo
from our own Matt Frederick.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Can you be the star cameo?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Like a little Wayne feature there He's the star and
the cameo of so many, so many tracks, though I
do not love the Carter six.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Sorry, we're really dogging on that bad boy.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I mean, it's tough to make art. So the as
time goes on, we see that cults begin to be
defined more by their series of tactics, kind of like
how fascism knows no concrete ideology, it's it's a toolkit
of tactics. And colts now are defined by the presence
(10:50):
of a charismatic leader, even if they don't say they're
the leader. Isolation from society. This is all from our
video controlled or curated access to informations, Pacific language and
jargon that's going to be familiar with a lot of
people who have worked in the military. Harsh rules about
what actions you can and cannot take, how you can
(11:11):
consume or be allowed to consume resources, and again tons
of rules around sex, usually favoring the leader.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Indeed, And I mean I think I like that that
has largely become what cult means. I think that's fair, right,
I think when we see someone being an opportunist and
some of these clear tactics are being used, I think
that's fair.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
But I guess there's a gray area though.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Because there could be some splinter groups of religions that
outsiders might characterize in these ways. But maybe it's not
quite that, and it's used as a term of abuse,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
It's a pejorative. Yeah. Often in the modern day, especially
especially in the West and outside of academia. And there
are quite a few ven diagrams with let's say, what
authorities could describe as gangs might be described as cults,
depending again upon their tactics and their ideology. The world
has become the human world has become increasingly secular, and
(12:13):
in step with that, the definition of cult expanded to
include non religious groups that engage in cult like tactics. Again,
according to their critics, sometimes they don't even bother with
the spiritual window dressing. You see it in politics, right,
the political opponents always accuse the other side of being
cult like. Certain fandoms, as we mentioned, get called culty
(12:36):
or we're talking about that off air, especially in the
world of music. Shout out to the Swifties, as you
were saying earlier, Noel K pop jpop fans, the barbies
of Nicki Minaj, notoriety.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Yes, we certainly have talked about some of the inherent
cultiness of kpop and jpop as organizations, you know, And
that's true of course as well in boy bands and
Disney teen queens and stuff over here where we've got
some people that have taken serious falls from grace who
have been, you know, the decision makers of who kind
(13:09):
of gets elevated in those spheres. I'm trying to think
of the name. But there was the Nickelodeon guy, and
then there was a foot yep, that's right. And then
there was, of course definitely have been some very demented
and self serving managers. Not to mention the diddy stuff
that's going on right now, that's all cult like and
obviously very self serving.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That's a good point. That's a good point. There's also
this is something that might not be familiar to a
lot of us in the English speaking audience. There's a
really creepy I find a creepy school of dance in
Japan called Bhuto sense of links later, but it is
like super upsetting. It is TWI, it is Twilight Zone
(13:53):
as dance in theater, and followers of Bhutto teachers and
mentors have later said that they accidentally joined a cult.
There's also a great show that used to be on
our network. I can't remember if it is now, it's
called Was I In a Cult? In full disclosure, I
worked on that show with our pal Paul Decant. That
(14:14):
provides first hand accounts of people who grew up in
or were taken in by a cult, realized what was happening,
and most importantly, how they escaped. So we're going to
provide some resources at the end of tonight's episode if
you find yourself in that situation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Oh yeah, guys, I just wanted to make one more
point based on something Noel was saying earlier about splitting
off those splinter groups really quickly. We're for another project.
We're looking pretty deeply into the Branch Davidians, and we,
you know, are just looking at how the version of
(14:52):
Branch Davidians that was, you know, turned into the thing
that David Koresh was running during the Waco Siege was
so different and a splinter from the Branch Davidian Seventh
Day Adventists and the Branch Davidians were a split from
the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Seventh Day Adventists were
split from the Laodissians. I think is how you say it.
(15:13):
So then it's just like crazy to see how each
time it made splits, there was you know, allegations of
cult from the tree from which it branched out, right,
And then as you got down you finally get to
a David Koresh that is, by all intents and purposes,
the very definition of a cult leader and a cult right.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And did so by seducing the previous leader, oh, the
wife of the previous leader, leading to yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and then eventually saying everyone who is twelve or
older and a female is now my wife, and nobody
can have sex with anybody else.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Did you see that transcript where he's saying this Bible
verse means that women like big das, I'll send it
to you.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, we've got yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
But the whole point there is that, just as we're saying,
as things branch away from that collective consciousness thing that
everybody decides is okay, it gets culty. And then as
that power increases with an individual at the head of
one of these new organizations, any organization, be it a gang,
be at any of these things, you can get to
(16:19):
this point where it's a cult.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And at every step there will be someone else saying
I am not a heretic, I am the truth speaker.
I know what the nature of reality is. That's a
lot of what it's about, and except my reality while
is shoeing and discarding your own.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
But then of course you've got things like Zen, Buddhism
and various forms of meditation where it is, you know,
you could malignment in that way. But for a lot
of individuals that follow those, it's much more about self
actualization or you know, mindfulness and self improvement, et cetera.
But then you will of course have extreme cases of
(16:59):
those as well. People are following individuals and believing that
their reality, in this greater sense is the only true reality,
right as opposed to it being like a way of
helping oneself sort of achieve I don't know, positive habits
for example.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Sure, yeah, And the difference there would be that it's
not asking you to necessarily evangelize to harm yourself or others.
I just find it preposterous and offensive for a think
like me, when someone tries to force their reality upon me.
It's presumptuous, it's weird, and it gets old so quickly.
(17:36):
But there is one thing I wanted to add before
we continued, was that the modern use of cult is
not all bad still. We all love a cult classic
filled shout out to Big Trouble a Little China, you
know what I mean, And.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
That culture cult sprand that I was talking about, that's
a big part of what they put out. Like They've
got Evil Dead amazing design, Evil Dead shirts and you know,
Tetsuo the Iron Man Dead Alive and various.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Things like that. So check out cultive cults. We're not sponsored,
it's just cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And what I wanted to say about Big Trouble in
Little China is that it's an extraordinarily complex film. There's
more to it. The protagonist is not who is presented
as the protagonist, layers within layers. That's what cults are
about too. But we talked about this previously too, and
this is important for our setup tonight. The revolution of
(18:24):
the information age created entirely new vectors of communication and
control for cults. Loose groups like QAnon check a lot
of the boxes for cult like organizations and tactics, but
they exist almost entirely online, and they still have real
world consequences. That guy didn't wake up and decide to
(18:47):
attack that pizza place he thought he was moving for
a greater purpose, and his mentor or the thing he
was a disciple of, was to his mind and named
q SO.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
And you could even argue that certain military organizations are
cult like and that they require absolute adherence to a
set of guidelines and directives.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, which is hopefully the constitution in theory.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
But then we know that that that can go a
way out of whack, and in other countries it does
start to rob people of their own agency when you're
part of those groups, because you will act exclusively based
on the input from said leader.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, shout out, Colonel Kurtz. And in times of desperation,
people go to alternatives that they would not have ordinarily
rationally considered.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We all start sabotaging everything.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, we should have a meeting about that that we
can give to the committee that schedules meetings. Right. Oh,
check out our simple sabotage episode. It was so fun
and evil and sith Lordie. We do know. Weirdly enough,
even though we are increasingly in a surveillance state, it
(20:00):
is more difficult to monitor these groups today. It's easier
for them to slip under the radar until they become
dangerous and their members commit criminal acts like this is
why we see these factors sort of commingling to create
more cult like organizations than ever before. And it's tough
(20:22):
if you're an authority, if you're law enforcement, because you
have to justify the amount of surveillance. We all have
to pretend that cointelpro stopped, right, because if you surveil
people intensely without cause, you are making a strong case
that you're persecuting them for their religion or for their
(20:43):
personal beliefs. And that's a big no no and democracy
for now. Shout out to Palanteer and Foundry.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, shout out. Also shout out to Benino Massarro, who's
going on a god tour right now. Just got the
little email blast from that group, guys, it's really exciting stuff.
Bentino Masorrow started with a single YouTube video where he's
clearly snickering to himself about the video he's making to
(21:10):
a giant organization.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And check out our episode on Masarrow which all is
he gonna be at in the Tri State area, bro.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
He's doing a freedom talk in Berlin, a weekend immersive
in Amsterdam, hanging out in Croatia, then going somewhere for
a mystery immersion.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
When is the Berlin one? Just out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, I don't know, July twenty sixth.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Damn, I'll be there in September. I was gonna say,
I'm like.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
To a little eastern Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Well yeah, it makes me imagine what kind of surveillance
that dude's under. Like, right, people have to be watching him.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right, right, But he hasn't. They don't like him for
the specific violent crimes just yet, the ones that really
trip the radar. But you are surveilled if you go international.
And when's the Netherlands one Netherlands?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Looking at his website August ninth and tenth.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
No good, I'm going to dodge it, all right. So
what happens when these groups do go bad? What happens
when a cult that you've never heard of finally gains
the attention of law enforcement and the public. Let's pause
for a word from our sponsors, and then we'll find out.
(22:27):
Here's where it gets crazy. We've established this right there.
There are so many examples of cults the average person
hasn't heard of in the modern day, and I think
a lot of them do want to stay on the radar.
Could we agree with that, you know, it.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Was the grilled cheese sandwich one.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yellow something. Yeah, yeah, it was fun yellow sub yellow Deli.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yellow Deli, That's what it was. The yellow del have
to be what the hello Deli?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Very nice people, great sandwiches, seems so so people would say, uh,
we're being diplomatic here. Some people would say, well, a
lot of more conservative practitioners of Judaism will tell you
that the Hebrew Israelites are a cult and they run
sol vegetarian, which is likewise awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
For sure. I haven't been, but I've been meaning to
do that.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
And I may have mentioned this before as well. In
my hometown and I think elsewhere in the country, there
is a group.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
It's a church.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
It's called the International House of Prayer for All People, and.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
They have a leader who.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Sells his foot wash water and like as it's a thing,
like you want to wash the feet of the leader,
and they like that.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Sweeney Lady, It's very similar to me.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Right, that's a part of what is it much soap
ploy I forget this fella's name, but it is an individual.
And I went once in Augusta because they have a
really great soul food buffe that they do, it's like
cutting outreach and also generates income. So I mean it's
similar to the Yellow Deli situation, or perhaps we're so
soul vegetarian correctly.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
What I like about soul Vegetarian is they have never
tried to convert me, other than maybe up selling some
potato wedges, which are worth it. That was a good decision.
I want to thank the server.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
And they didn't either.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
At the International House of Prayer is very much just
like delicious homemade, you know, banana pudding and meeting three
kind of situations. No one spoke to me of joining
the church, but definitely some interesting ideology and you know
backstory for that organization.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
And we are not sponsored by these organizations, but will say,
if you think you don't like vegan food, try soul
Vegetarian next time you're in Atlanta. It's crazy because everything
we're saying here shows us that it is statistically certain
that the current world human world has hundreds, if not
thousands upon thousands of various organizations quietly going about with
(24:54):
cultish behavior. You may live in an area where everybody
knows there's a community a little on the outskirts of town.
They send some folks in right once a week, once
a month to get supplies or to sell some stuff,
and they are harmless. They have their own beliefs. They
may be odd. Why are all these people wearing turtlenecks
(25:15):
in summer or whatever?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
El Kintara guy?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Who is this Elkintari guy? In many ways, there are
folks who got together, they agreed on some principles, they
made a community around those beliefs, and if they're not
hurting anyone, why would we bother persecuting them? Matt, do
you want to talk a little bit about El Katari.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
El kantarare we remember this is from Happy Science? This
is oh gosh, what was his name? Rio who Ohkawa
the guy that started Happy Science? And El Kantari is God.
But it's a new version of all of the versions,
all of the versions of God that have been worshiped
(25:57):
over all the years. We remember this guy. We talked
about him one our episodes.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I think, yeah. The argument usually for these way of
the open hand, non confrontational cultic organizations, it's usually going
to be something like, hey, before us, everybody was doing
their best good hustle. They were a little inaccurate and
their hearts in the right place. Here's the real one.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And also I am him now like Rio who says
he is now the news, he usually ends.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Up that way. Yeah, he usually ends up that way.
And that's just the personality flaw of narcissism, right, But
that's not what we're here for now. We're not talking
about the nicey nice Oh. I forgot to mention this.
Why you guys are talking about esoterism. Consider eccentric checkers
esoteric the chess version, right, So eccentricity is acceptable in
(26:53):
most societies. Being esoteric can get you into some murky water.
So we're not exploring the nice and ice ones. We
want to explore examples of alleged cults that went to
a dark side. And let's start with the Zizians, because
we mentioned these bat on Strange News on our Strange
News program a while back, but we were I think
(27:16):
we were pushed for time, so we didn't get to
talk too much about it, but we did say we
wanted to return to a later, deeper examination. They're really
interesting because they are an ideological offshoot of something called rationalism,
not the old school rationalism. It's the twenty first century
(27:37):
school of thought. That was inspired by discussions on a
group of Internet blogs, and it became really really popular
in the Silicon Valley right in the Bay area of
San Francisco. It's very tech forward. Let's describe rationalism as
as this movement describes it something. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
The idea there is that you can use objective rational thoughts.
It's fine to avoid the cognitive biases all humans struggle with.
And folks that are into this particular movement are also
often interested in futurism, transhumanism, the nature and horizons and
potential reach of AI, and social movements like effective altruism.
(28:20):
All these things sound fine except when you get the
you know, the AI part that maybe I don't know,
I've always wondered what we're looking like in terms of
actual AI worship.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
I feel like it's not far off, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
It really does feel like some people who talk about
it as though it were some sort of new divine power, right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And these movements are concerned about just what you described there.
They're concerned about the role of AI and its effect
on organic minds. They're wondering, right, and we already, you know,
we have to say while this encompasses a myriad of
sometimes self contradicting concepts. There are real and valid concerns
(29:03):
about the amount of control that humans are giving these
large language models currently over their lives, and we may
talk about that in the future Strange News or listener
mail program. But I'm thinking of the people who have
believed that their chat gptsque service was sentient, was a god,
(29:24):
was their soulmate ordered or ordered them to go off
their meds or even commit acts of self harm. What
you got to remember is, right now, those things are
yes and machines very much. So they are not giving you.
They're not giving you the advice that a organic therapist
(29:48):
would approve of.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Have we seen a lot in the news lately about kids, Yeah,
like believing in these things as they're like, you know,
special friend or imaginary friend or whatever. And I mean
I believe there were some stories even of a dut
that we're very much going down that particular rabbit hole.
So you know, there are a lot of lonely people
out there, and these technologies can be predatory.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Imagine having a partner that never tells you you're wrong,
never checks you on anything right, and.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Just yes, good but not good, not very.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Much non ideal. It's also you know, years back, I
remember had said that we're increasingly as a society, we're
using technology as a vector to create supernatural things, all
the old folk tales, right. The story of the Gin
now is very much like a large language model. It's
(30:40):
a limited gin to check out our episodes on that, oh,
or get weird. All right, So, speaking of weird, the
Zizians take this idea that Noel just described here, this
series of interest and thoughts, and they run with it.
They advocate additionally for things like anarchism, veganism more increasingly
actually radical interpretations of that rationalist philosophy. And they describe
(31:04):
themselves as vegan, anarcho, transhumanist, and arcotranshumanist being one word.
It sounds fancy, right, and if you like fancy words,
it sounds legit. One of the best articles written about
this is back in February twenty twenty five for Wired
is by Evan Ratleth. It's called the Delirious, violent, impossible
(31:27):
True Story of the Zizians. So let's play with this
a little, I guess to be fair, this is an
active organization. The folks that would be identified by outsiders
and by law enforcement now on a federal level. As Zizians,
they find it offensive to be described as members of
(31:48):
a group. They find it offensive for someone to say
they have a leader. They say, we have discussions about concepts. Right,
we don't have anyone in charge. We aren't even really
a group, but we're going to use the term Zizian
for convenience and clarity with respect. And they kind of
(32:09):
do have a leader.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, this is a very weird crew. And as you said,
we discussed them a little bit. There's a fantastic article
you can check out from PBS News called a timeline
of cult like Zizian group tied to killing of a
border patrol agent in Vermont. It just goes through like
the dates of when this stuff happened. But it is
weird how it all unfolded, because it seems like authorities
(32:33):
weren't even aware of them until there were several deaths.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Right, Yeah, that's correct. It's similar to train hopping murders.
Oh and I met a train hopper cult too. The
closest thing they have the Zizians to a leader would
be the founder of the movement, a person known as
Jack ziz Lesoda goes by ziz Lesoda now and they only,
as Man was saying, they only came to the attention
(33:00):
of authorities after ziz Lsoda, who identifies as female, and
the group were linked to no less than six killings
across the United States, including the murder of that US
Border Patrol agent. This includes a double homicide in Pennsylvania,
stabbing in California. The shooting of the border guard occurred
(33:23):
in January of twenty twenty five. So these guys are
relatively fresh baked as far as colts go. And we
could do an episode or series all its own about
the escalation of the Zizians they started. Okay, So ziz
Lsoda was very active in organizations in the Bay Area
(33:45):
that champion rationalism, the Center for Applied Rationality. It's an
innocuous name, but they're not a bad group. You know,
outsiders the worst criticism you could level if you take
religion out of it. You could say these are nerdy
people who are very into philosophy, which is fine. Who
(34:05):
doesn't know a nerdy person into philosophy?
Speaker 5 (34:08):
And I mean, we've talked about this before. There is
an argument for AI being the ultimate form of rationalism,
you know, like if it is looking at all possibilities
and then making assessments based on data points and based
on you know, whatever the optimal conditions might be.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
I'm not saying that's how it.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Always works, because of course it's programmed by humans who
are inherently fallible. But I can see where this line
of thinking from rationalism into AI, you know, kind of flows.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yeah, but you can.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
You can have someone like Ziz who has that framework
right and then injects their own interesting weird concept. This
this concept that the two hemispheres of the human brain
are separate enough that they can have separate values, and
you can literally almost have two individuals living within your
(35:02):
you know that the complex of organs that we call
the brain.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
By cameral mind stuff, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, But even to where you could have like literally
different human beings, different genders, different everything living inside you,
which yeah, you know makes up maybe some people interested
other people kind of like, I don't really get it.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
And then when you circivity to it though that I
don't mind, Like there's a certain like fluidness to that,
you know, yeah, gender at the very least, right, Like
that makes sense and seems cool.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
To me, But then it splits enough to where you've
got individuals who were maybe interested in the other stuff,
who are now deciding whether or not they believe that
thing as a core tenant. Right, and then splinter splinters
begin to occur.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, I am vast. I contain multitudes. I kind of
wonder what is Lesota thinks of that recent film adaptation
of the Stephen King short story, The Life of Chuck.
I saw that earlier. Is it good?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
I didn't know that was Stephen King.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
It's based on a short story of streaming in theaters.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
It's in theaters.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Have to put it on my list. I do love
Stephen King. And they're not all created equal, though, are they?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
No? Not everything can be as good as Maximum Overdrive.
But also go on. Everybody watched the trailer for Maximum Overdrive.
I'm Stephen King and I'm geta scare. I like yeah,
executive produced by Cocaine and Steve would say that too.
So this was.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
A time in his life where it was bad news.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yes, that movie made me terrified of the soda machines
A lot of time.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I saw one of the I saw his semi. I
was on some off the grid stuff and I saw
a semi with that green goblin or hop goblin front
to spiece. Just for a second, I was thinking I
should get back in the car, probably just in case.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
That could exist.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's It's definitely was. It's like, you know, like a
fun trucker kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Yeah, they modit it.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
I remember the part where John Carlo Esposito in one
of his early roles, gets zapped by an arcade machine.
I want to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, bad like painted
on electricity, you know, coming on God.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I love the way Stevie King writes anyway. Yeah, Life
at Shock. We're not sponsored by it, but we do.
I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. I'd love to
see what you guys think of it. And the reason
I'm bringing that up why would be interesting for Lesta
and her non followers to watch it is because there
is a great emphasis upon the idea of the inner
(37:37):
mind as its own at times paradoxical universe. Barry Stephen King,
heady stuff. Anyway. Yeah, Lesta is originally involved and as
Matt said, originally involved with things like the c Far
Center for Applied Rationality, but then further injecting their own
(37:57):
beliefs creating communes with increasingly like minded people and then
asking or pushing the CFR and other organizations to fall
in line with those new beliefs. So this leads to
disagreements and tention, and that builds to protest, and that
(38:18):
builds to the intervention of law enforcement, and that builds
to legal action such that ziz Lesoda ends up committing
pseudo side. She fakes her own death in a boting
accident or what appears to be a boting accident at
the time, and she's on the lamb off the grid
from August of twenty twenty two to January of twenty
(38:40):
twenty three. She is found in a Philly hotel room.
Police are not specifically necessarily looking for her. Instead, they're
searching for a weapon that they believe was used in
some of those murders we described earlier. I believe the
double homicide. So Lesoda gets arrested because she has an
(39:01):
outstanding warrant for Shenanigans in California, also gets arrested on
charges of disorderly conduct, interfering with a police investigation, gets
released on a reduced unsecured bell of about bail of
about my tennessee came out. We can give it of
about thanks man about ten thousand dollars, shows up to
(39:25):
court that August, but then skips town and misses a
December court date, and then gets caught in a campsite
in Frostburg, Maryland, attempting the camp reported by the camp owner.
And right now as we record, Lesota and several non
followers associated with the Zizian movement are in custody without
(39:50):
bail this time because if you skip bail once, they're
they're not going to let you get a second go
at it, unfortunately. So if you do have to skip bail,
which we don't recommend, do it right the first time.
Oh yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Though we can't recommend that you look at the full
story of this enough because it is weird. There's a
sword fight at one point in this thing where a
landlord is trying to evict this group of people who
are living on his property in Vallejo, California, and they
he's attacked by a sword and he ends up getting
(40:28):
partially blinded or blinded in some way with the sword
and impaled by a sword and ends up yes and
ends up shooting and killing one of the people who
is a part.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Of the group, and lend is eighty at this time.
By the way, he is a bruiser for an elderly human.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Well yeah, and he had a gun, so whoop's.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Gone to a sword fight. Uh yeah, this is something
we may return to in more depth. There's been a
lot of work in journalism about this, so do check
out those swords for more. Uh. These actions bear all
the hallmarks of cultic tactics we described earlier. Unfortunately, due
(41:10):
to some of their philosophy that that very gender fluidity
that Noel described there, this became red meat for more
conservative factions of the US media right, and it was used,
unfortunately to vilify or villainize a lot of innocent people.
(41:30):
But I think it's fair to say, while we are
not the lawyers, and we are not the judges nor
the jury, they had to have done some of this.
The cysiasts did some of this stuff, they're guilty at
something for sure. Well.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, I mean the attack that we just described is
pretty well documented, and you know, the injuries to carl
In were well documented in the statements and all that stuff.
I mean, there's a lot of evidence that we're not discussing, right,
now on the on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
We will be sure to update as the legal proceedings
involving Lesta and the group called the Zizians continue. But
for now, since we're in California, how about we stay
there for a moment and travel back to the early
nineteen seventies. This is where we see things that might
be called gangs by some and cults by others.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Also in the Bay Area, the Zebra murders of nineteen
seventy three, much like the you know Zodiac killings, had
that area paralyzed with fear. The name came from a
crime wave of what would seem on the face like
random killings, with the only commonality being the victims were
(42:44):
Caucasian and the suspects targeting them were reported to be black.
So this is race war kind of vibes in terms
of like some of that fear that's sort of spreading
across the area. And these were particularly brutal murders and
involved things like sexualists and even forms of dismemberment decapitation.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, yeah, it was really grody.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, it's a It's an interesting thing to imagine it
because I think a lot of people know about Charles
Manson We've done episodes on Charles Manson. You can listen
to this right now. And this concept of helter skelter
and this concept of starting a race war on the
Caucasian side of a person who believes they are ultra
(43:28):
powerful and they want to begin the thing that will
start the end times or whatever that is. It's interesting
to see it flipped here in that way.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
One hundred percent yeah, because again I love that point.
It shows us that the tactics end up being the
one of the defining factors cult like activity. Ultimately, these
killers are linked to a militant Black Muslim group known
as the Death Angels, and they do self identify by
(43:58):
that name. The one of their victims who survived would
go on to be the future mayor of San Francisco.
But before he becomes the mayor, the guy we later
call Mayor Agnos talks to CBS News at the time
he's attacked after he goes to a meeting and they
(44:19):
do a terrible number on him, a lot of oregon spleen, injury,
you name it. But he does survive and he discloses
information that he has learned about the group, and he
says in order to be initiated into this murderous group.
The prospective or potential member has to kill a white person. Now,
that can be similar to other gang initiations. What makes
(44:42):
them occult is the tie to their interpretation of religious ideology.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
And some of those types of initiations often end up
being determined to be kind of urban lore, right, yeah,
like the whole like turn the link the brites or
whatever and then kill, you know, kill the first person
that does whatever the thing is, right, We hear those
in like scary stories to tell around the campfire type
things as well. This just has the vibe of that.
(45:07):
But this did I believe turn out to be true?
And then of course the heavy handed approach that law
enforcement took didn't really do much for the cause.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Let's just say, right, yeah, you know, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
Stopping frisk proto kind of stopping frisk type stock.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
One hundred percent. Yeah, and there was a lot of
hypocrisy to it too. It as well, We're incredibly fortunate
to have many members of Muslim faith in the stuff.
They don't want you to know, audience, So we want
to take pains to point out obviously, no one in
the actual Islamic community approves of heinous acts like this,
(45:47):
No one, you know what I mean, the police, definitely,
to your point, NOL could have handled it much better.
The mayor at the time is a guy named Joe Aliotto,
and he orders a city wide dragnet stuff frisk, question
all black mails between the ages of twenty and thirty,
five feet nine to six feet tall and medium build
(46:10):
So everybody gets hassled, right, and there's a big part
of the population. If you pass whatever arbitrary inspection law
enforcement has, then you are to be given I can't
believe this is true. What they called a zebra check card.
So then when you inevitably get stopped again, you can
show them the card that another officer is signed off
(46:32):
on and say, hey, I'm not the you know, I'm
not the person you're looking for. I'm not the killer
you're looking for. This did not work, and it was
super controversial because other political and religious activists were saying, Hey,
the Zodiac killer wasn't that long ago. Why weren't we
stopping and frisking every white dude, you know what I mean?
(46:53):
Why the hypocrisy and the panic here? Islamophobia? Is it racism?
Is it all of the above. It did end up
getting solved only because one member of the Death Angels,
a guy named Anthony Harris, was watching the news and
recognized himself from a composite sketch, a law enforcement sketch
(47:16):
based on eyewitnesses, and it looked enough like him that
he panicked. He called the cops, probably partially incentivized by
the monetary reward, and he's sang. He told them names, places, details, associations.
Four suspects get convicted of sixteen murders. They're given life sentences.
(47:37):
Harris goes into wit SEC witness production witness security, And
this is confusing. This is how prevalent a lot of
these obscure cults are because we didn't know this when
we're starting on the research. But later there was another
cult leader, guy named Yahwa bin Yawa, who recreated the
(47:59):
Death Angels in Florida, result in more than a dozen murders.
They were targeting what they saw is racial opponents as well,
but they were also targeting any dissidents within the organization
so that they could avoid having an Anthony Harris.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, yeah, don't don't want that for sure, snitch in
the group, right, No.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
Jumps in the squadch sch Witsac.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
That's not Yeah, well, it's interesting when this happen. You're
talking about the timeline there with the Zodiac because it
was sixty eight to seventy that's when the confirmed Zodiac
killings were, so there was you can imagine parts of
the city, especially a little north of San Francisco, were
pretty freaked out because those were all Caucasian victims during
the Zodiac killings, and then you imagine there are a
(48:44):
bunch of other Caucasian people getting killed. It's no wonder
that there were connections made or you know, possible connections
made to the Zebra murders there or the what do
we call death angels. Yeah, it's it's interesting to see
how this kind of thing can come in waves where
there's either an individual who has decided or possibly a
(49:07):
group as in the Zodiac killing, like maybe it was
a group and then another group like this of like
minded people. You can have so many people killed.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
It's just it's nuts, Yeah, especially when bad faith actors
realize the tactics that will work right when you're trying
to get away with stuff. So they saw the way
law enforcement in the area operated and they realize the
exploits that could be deployed there. We're going to deploy
(49:38):
a second ad break. We're gonna take some time to
get a breather here because that got really dark, and
we'll be back with some more examples of cults you
have never heard of, or cults you maybe don't know
too much about. Weave returned monocuous name brides of Christ.
(50:02):
I could swear I've heard that as the moniker of
multiple religious organizations.
Speaker 5 (50:08):
I mean, I think it's actually used to refer to nuns, right.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Right, right, right, yeah, So we're not talking about those
completely innocent organizations or groups of people.
Speaker 4 (50:23):
Innocent depending I mean, you know, case.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
By case by base, case by case, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you go to the Oregon Encyclopedia, which has a
great rite up on this, we're going to learn about
another German, not like the Coconut guy in nineteen oh three,
a guy named Edmund Crefield is. He's thirty three years old.
He's an immigrant from Germany. He used to be a
(50:46):
captain in the Salvation Army, and.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
They had ranks in the Salvation Army to me.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
He so he goes to his former and current fellows
and he convinces about twenty Salvation Army soldiers and their
families in a town called Corvallis to join his new church.
Townspeople think it's ridiculous at first. They're like, oh, this
Poluca there you.
Speaker 5 (51:13):
Go, shout out, check out the Poluka episode of ridiculous history.
Speaker 4 (51:17):
What's going on with this guy?
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Though?
Speaker 4 (51:18):
He seems to be convincing.
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Right, yeah, yeah, he's definitely got the gift a gap.
He's talking twenty twenty families into joining up with his
new prophetic revelations. Turns out he he is the main
prophet of Christ, and then later he realizes he is Christ. Spoiler,
Colts don't really have a shamal on twist.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
To the logical masks.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Next step, right right right, it's very uh what's that
great Bible on how to write screenplays? Save the cat?
Oh yeah, yeah, colts have a save the category for sure.
The townspeople here they pooh pooh and pishaw. These folks.
They call them holy rollers, so already a phrase at
the time, but then the news begins reporting strange things
(52:05):
they say. Crefield looked around at his followers, pointed to
the women and said, one of you will be the
mother of the returning Jesus Christ to do that to
figure this out, because we're all good Christians. I need
to lay hands upon you so I can purify you.
Speaker 5 (52:22):
Yeah, he got real handsy, indeed, and I don't know,
maybe there's a there's some really nasty stuff involving forcible
well enforceable is you know, they were obviously doing it
to some degree of free will, but you know, coerced
at the very least women in his flock to perform
sex acts on him with him in front of young members.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Of the flock.
Speaker 4 (52:48):
Let's just say, it's really like you'd say, been unclean.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Unclean agreed, and he denied all the allegations, but irrefutable
evidence of activities came to light and a lot of
several of those accusations proved solid. He eventually goes to
prison for adultery, which is a crime in that part
of the world at the time. He doesn't, you know,
(53:15):
get a life sentence for adultery. He's released in nineteen
oh six, and when he's released, he comes back to
his followers. He still has followers, and he says, I
realize that I am the return of Christ. Mainly it's
mainly me. I figured this out in the Hoo's gal
and me going to prison was sort of like when
(53:36):
Jesus Christ died and came back. Also, I have supernatural
divine powers. His followers are like, oh, yeah, you did
the San fran earthquake right, and He's like.
Speaker 4 (53:48):
Absolute, that was definitely me.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
Yeah, and he continued his activities. Eventually as followers and
their family members relatives who are trying to get their
loved ones out of this cult, they turn on because
you know what gifts. So Craffield is an interesting case
because he becomes a victim of his own cult. The
brother of one of the female members is really worried
(54:12):
that Craffield's going to try to get his hands on
this eighteen year old kid and quote unquote purifier. So
this guy tracks Crawfield down and murders him in front
of multiple witnesses. Ultimately, the judge is kind of on
the side of the murderer. That's another that's another weird,
(54:35):
I would say, anomalist part of this case. So that's
a Brides of Christ. The cult you probably haven't heard
of unless you grew up in that part of Oregon
in the early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Do you guys see the mugshot of Craffield.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, he did it.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I mean that's a.
Speaker 4 (54:54):
Ug right there, ug right.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Oh gosh, don't let that guy get his hands on you.
It's so gross. They would roll around naked too. That's
just the Holy Rollers thing.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Just that face telling you you need to be purified with.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
The stripe pajamas. Oh that's the Yeah, this is an
old timey prison shot. He's in the classic striped pajamas.
Speaker 4 (55:17):
What a stare dead eyes yep.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
So with that, folks, we've just given you a few
examples of Colts past and present that you probably haven't
heard of unless you follow Colt News closely Cult news closely.
But there there's so many more to get to. We
haven't even talked about profundity yours. The ant Hill Kids
amshon wrinko.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
The ant Hill Kids has like a fun after school gang,
like the Apple Dumpling Gang or something, you know, not
that those ant.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Hill kids good stealing as apple pie off the ledge. Yeah,
and also this was there's so many of these organizations
with alleged or proven criminal acts that I actually I
got confused when I was looking into the ant Hill
Kids because I was thinking of that Central European cult
(56:13):
the ants, remember where that girl faked being a teenage
boy but that grown woman faked being a teenage boy
friend don't yours?
Speaker 4 (56:22):
Yeah I don't, but that sounds fascinating. I'm sure we
talked about it.
Speaker 3 (56:25):
I just and then.
Speaker 4 (56:27):
You get into a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
Well then she escaped getting in trouble and was found
again impersonating somebody new.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah, and then got away again and maybe out there
still do check out our episode on the family. We
have a lot of stuff diving into cults. Each of
the things we mentioned here could of course be their
own episode or indeed a series went in by saying,
if you are loved when or struggling to escape a
(56:55):
cultic environment, please remember you're not alone. There are tons
of resources out there to help. Although guys, I would say,
we recommend trying to steer clear of controversial deprogramming practices. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
not good. Yeah, So you could check out, for example,
any number of online resources like cultescape dot com. We
(57:20):
also we recommended the excellent podcast Was I In a Cult?
Check that out. For now, we want to hear from you.
Please reach out tell us about the local suspected cults
or cultic organizations in your neck of the global woods.
Be safe out there. You can find us online. You
can drop us a telephone message. I like how I'm talking,
(57:43):
as though that's a new fangled invention. You could also
send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (57:48):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist all over the internet, especially on XFKA, Twitter,
on YouTube we have video content if we are perusing Enjoyment,
and on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where it
gets crazy. On Instagram and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself a
cool nickname and let us know if we can use
your name and message on the air. If you want
to send us an email, we have that too.
Speaker 3 (58:18):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the cult
writes back, So step a little further out into the dark.
Join us conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
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From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
They call me Bed. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan, the Tennessee pal Fagan, and our cult leader.
By the way, most importantly, you argue you are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to know.
Fellow fans, friends, neighbors, conspiracy realist, enthusiast of all things
cult ish, Welcome back to our continuing fascination, which we
(00:53):
hope you share. Cults you have never heard of before
we begin just here at the top. I'd love to
ask you guys. I don't know if we discussed it previously,
but what's something that you all have personally experienced that
felt at some point, either in the present or in
retrospect cultish.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
I've certainly mentioned this before.
Speaker 5 (01:14):
I saw just briefly say that I was once friends
with a bunch of high faith people and that is
classified by some as a cult. But we're going to
get into what that actually means. And we've talked about
all this before. I thought they were lovely people. I
didn't participate in it in that way, and I found
it just to be a great way of getting together
with some nice folks. But I'll tell you what I
recently kind of associated that with is like big K
(01:37):
pop and jpop, like boy bands and like just like
the hand movements and all of that stuff.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
It feels hellicultish to me.
Speaker 3 (01:45):
Swifties as well. Totally what about you, met.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
I can't think of anything outside of the United Methodist Church.
I lived in a commune, but it wasn't there wasn't
really religious undertones, Yeah, not really. Yeah, we did have
this saying that was all things in moderation. That was
(02:10):
the cult of moderation. Just anything and everything as long
as you're safe and careful and everybody's happy.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Reminds me of dead Press, all things of moderation, even moderation,
which I thought was clever. And as some of us
know from this or other shows, I once upon a
time got deep with some Mennonites in Central America, primarily
for their bakery. That's how they got me in.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
There's a Mennonite community in my hometown in Augusta, Georgia,
and they had a lovely bakery with these little ham rolls.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
Boy oh boy, delicious stuff.
Speaker 3 (02:45):
So why are people calling all these outsider groups cults?
Will pause for a word from our sponsors and then
we'll get into it. Here are the facts, all right.
It's no secret that our show man, the United States
at large finds the concept of cults endlessly fascinating, and
(03:07):
we've done a lot of work in the past on this.
We've got videos How to Start a Cult is a banger.
You can find some cameos from our colleagues, Jonathan Strickland,
I want to say, also Tyler Klaying and the legendary
Chuck Bryant. Who else do you have in there?
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I don't remember. I know we did a podcast version
of that episode that was in twenty fourteen about cults
you had never heard of way back then. We've been
talking about these organizations for a long time, and we.
Speaker 3 (03:40):
Had a lot of fun with our series on companies
started by cults, using the word fun loosely there. But look,
we know this. The C word is usually not a
self describer. Critics are the ones outsiders, are the ones
who call a group a cult. The basic definition is
(04:01):
just that a group often but not always small, and
they're devoted to a person, an individual, or an idea
or a philosophy.
Speaker 5 (04:10):
You guys, there's this really cool clothing line that they make,
like kind of like B movie horror movie shirts and stuff,
and it's called cult of Cults, and that I think
describes where we're coming from.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
We're in the cult of cults.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Interesting, Yeah, because it is interesting, because that's an excellent
milestone for us to measure how the definition expanded. Right
when previously recorded, we noted that historically this was an
insult applied to what you could call non compliant religious groups,
(04:44):
organizations that had some existed with some degree of opposition to,
or divergence from the dominant spiritual, socio religious practices of
any society.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
Splinter groups, if you refer to the ones descending from
I guess they often can become antithetical to what they
came from, or become like almost a protest against that
in and of themselves.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We should do a we should do a special mini
series that would last for a decade if we published
once a week of all the people who woke up
and said, oh yeah, I read I read the Bible,
or I read you know, the Koran, and it turns
out I'm the prophet. This whole book is about me.
(05:28):
I've actually Jesus because I'm so humble. But yeah, also,
let me sleep with your wife.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Oh all the women can only sleep with me now, hahaa. Yeah,
that's it, God told me. That's That's a pretty common thing.
It's also very common for any new group, like any
new religion, if it's formed at any time, like basically,
(05:53):
what would you guys say from the twelve hundreds on,
any new religion is generally labeled as a cult.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
Yeah, and the idea here of the real estate and
the context is super important. I think we lose that
often in modern evenings. A cult can partially be defined
by the society in which it functions. So just for
a cocktail napkin example, you know, let's say we start
a Buddhist monastery, and we start it in a part
(06:25):
of the world that is predominantly Buddhist, we're just another
monastery unless we get super weird with it. But if
we go to medieval Hungry and we start a monastery
there in Central Europe dedicated to Buddhism, then the non
Buddhist locals might look around and say, Okay, these guys
are a cult and maybe devil worshipers because I don't
(06:46):
see a cross.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
Oh yeah, for sure. Just in that idea, you think
about the cult of Mithrusts that originated from you know,
ancient Roman times. But it's a group of people worshiping
somebody that isn't generally worshiped right, right, for some deity
that isn't the same as everybody.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Else, right, And if they tip the demographic scales and
Mithris becomes a more popular deity, then they're no longer
a cult. Now they're the law of the land. In
that time, I mean, for thousands of years, saying something
was a cult had none of the negative connotations it
has in the modern era. Were talking about Mythris. It
(07:27):
used to be kind of a flex in ancient Mediterranean societies.
To join a mystery cult are the skull and bones
of their day. The elite and the initiated are are
super secret agents. They definitely got up to socio political
conspiracies and snannigan's, but they were not seen as inherently
(07:48):
evil or dangerous. Side note, they were not seen in general,
which is why we still don't know a ton of
details about them or whether they continue in the modern.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Day, right, And the way we usually find out is
we find some hidden underground temple that was a basement
that somebody who had a lot of money or you know,
with the money from the group, turned into a temple.
Speaker 4 (08:11):
You hear the word esoteric thrown around a lot when
it comes.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
To the right of esoteric beliefs, meaning beliefs that are
not the commons.
Speaker 4 (08:20):
Got weird.
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, But then again, like that's even that as a
term that is relative, isn't it right?
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Depends on which side of it you're on.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
Esoteric can also be levied as a bit of a
thought terminating cliche.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Yes, yeah, And when we're using that term esoteric, it
is real, Like sometimes sometimes the beliefs are just strange.
We talked we haven't yet talked about this guy, August engelhawked.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We've done that, this dude who.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Was born in eighteen seventy five that ended up with
a lot of inheritance and had some ideas about coconuts,
specifically some ideas that coconuts, because they're shaped like a
human head, are the ideal food for humans, so we
must eat only coconuts, all coconuts. Coconuts are basically the
answer to everything. And he created a religion and used
(09:14):
his inheritance to buy part of an island where he
started a cult about coconuts and nudity.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
I have to add this island did was home to
indigenous coconuts.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It have to be to be a selling.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yes, yes, yes, out there by the Solomon Islands between
the Solomon Islands and New Guinea.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
And he northeast or northeast of Australia for any right
without a map, handing yes.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
And he authored a book, you guys. The title is
a care Free Future, The New Gospel, Glimpse into the
depth and distance for the selection of mankind, for the
reflection of all, for consideration and stimulation.
Speaker 3 (09:54):
Sorry, all other spherical produce you lost you were why
like ahead those hairy.
Speaker 4 (10:02):
Orbs of mystery and wisdom.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Please do check out our upcoming episode of Ridiculous History,
which will be all about Angle Heart, starring a cameo
from our own Matt Frederick.
Speaker 4 (10:14):
Can you be the star cameo?
Speaker 1 (10:17):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:17):
I think.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Like a little Wayne feature there He's the star and
the cameo of so many, so many tracks, though I
do not love the Carter six.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Sorry, we're really dogging on that bad boy.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
I mean, it's tough to make art. So the as
time goes on, we see that cults begin to be
defined more by their series of tactics, kind of like
how fascism knows no concrete ideology, it's it's a toolkit
of tactics. And colts now are defined by the presence
(10:50):
of a charismatic leader, even if they don't say they're
the leader. Isolation from society. This is all from our
video controlled or curated access to informations, Pacific language and
jargon that's going to be familiar with a lot of
people who have worked in the military. Harsh rules about
what actions you can and cannot take, how you can
(11:11):
consume or be allowed to consume resources, and again tons
of rules around sex, usually favoring the leader.
Speaker 5 (11:19):
Indeed, And I mean I think I like that that
has largely become what cult means. I think that's fair, right,
I think when we see someone being an opportunist and
some of these clear tactics are being used, I think
that's fair.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
But I guess there's a gray area though.
Speaker 5 (11:36):
Because there could be some splinter groups of religions that
outsiders might characterize in these ways. But maybe it's not
quite that, and it's used as a term of abuse,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
It's a pejorative. Yeah. Often in the modern day, especially
especially in the West and outside of academia. And there
are quite a few ven diagrams with let's say, what
authorities could describe as gangs might be described as cults,
depending again upon their tactics and their ideology. The world
has become the human world has become increasingly secular, and
(12:13):
in step with that, the definition of cult expanded to
include non religious groups that engage in cult like tactics. Again,
according to their critics, sometimes they don't even bother with
the spiritual window dressing. You see it in politics, right,
the political opponents always accuse the other side of being
cult like. Certain fandoms, as we mentioned, get called culty
(12:36):
or we're talking about that off air, especially in the
world of music. Shout out to the Swifties, as you
were saying earlier, Noel K pop jpop fans, the barbies
of Nicki Minaj, notoriety.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
Yes, we certainly have talked about some of the inherent
cultiness of kpop and jpop as organizations, you know, And
that's true of course as well in boy bands and
Disney teen queens and stuff over here where we've got
some people that have taken serious falls from grace who
have been, you know, the decision makers of who kind
(13:09):
of gets elevated in those spheres. I'm trying to think
of the name. But there was the Nickelodeon guy, and
then there was a foot yep, that's right. And then
there was, of course definitely have been some very demented
and self serving managers. Not to mention the diddy stuff
that's going on right now, that's all cult like and
obviously very self serving.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That's a good point. That's a good point. There's also
this is something that might not be familiar to a
lot of us in the English speaking audience. There's a
really creepy I find a creepy school of dance in
Japan called Bhuto sense of links later, but it is
like super upsetting. It is TWI, it is Twilight Zone
(13:53):
as dance in theater, and followers of Bhutto teachers and
mentors have later said that they accidentally joined a cult.
There's also a great show that used to be on
our network. I can't remember if it is now, it's
called Was I In a Cult? In full disclosure, I
worked on that show with our pal Paul Decant. That
(14:14):
provides first hand accounts of people who grew up in
or were taken in by a cult, realized what was happening,
and most importantly, how they escaped. So we're going to
provide some resources at the end of tonight's episode if
you find yourself in that situation.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
Oh yeah, guys, I just wanted to make one more
point based on something Noel was saying earlier about splitting
off those splinter groups really quickly. We're for another project.
We're looking pretty deeply into the Branch Davidians, and we,
you know, are just looking at how the version of
(14:52):
Branch Davidians that was, you know, turned into the thing
that David Koresh was running during the Waco Siege was
so different and a splinter from the Branch Davidian Seventh
Day Adventists and the Branch Davidians were a split from
the Seventh Day Adventists, and the Seventh Day Adventists were
split from the Laodissians. I think is how you say it.
(15:13):
So then it's just like crazy to see how each
time it made splits, there was you know, allegations of
cult from the tree from which it branched out, right,
And then as you got down you finally get to
a David Koresh that is, by all intents and purposes,
the very definition of a cult leader and a cult right.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
And did so by seducing the previous leader, oh, the
wife of the previous leader, leading to yeah, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
Yeah, and then eventually saying everyone who is twelve or
older and a female is now my wife, and nobody
can have sex with anybody else.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
Did you see that transcript where he's saying this Bible
verse means that women like big das, I'll send it
to you.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Yeah, we've got yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:57):
But the whole point there is that, just as we're saying,
as things branch away from that collective consciousness thing that
everybody decides is okay, it gets culty. And then as
that power increases with an individual at the head of
one of these new organizations, any organization, be it a gang,
be at any of these things, you can get to
(16:19):
this point where it's a cult.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
And at every step there will be someone else saying
I am not a heretic, I am the truth speaker.
I know what the nature of reality is. That's a
lot of what it's about, and except my reality while
is shoeing and discarding your own.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
But then of course you've got things like Zen, Buddhism
and various forms of meditation where it is, you know,
you could malignment in that way. But for a lot
of individuals that follow those, it's much more about self
actualization or you know, mindfulness and self improvement, et cetera.
But then you will of course have extreme cases of
(16:59):
those as well. People are following individuals and believing that
their reality, in this greater sense is the only true reality,
right as opposed to it being like a way of
helping oneself sort of achieve I don't know, positive habits
for example.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
Sure, yeah, And the difference there would be that it's
not asking you to necessarily evangelize to harm yourself or others.
I just find it preposterous and offensive for a think
like me, when someone tries to force their reality upon me.
It's presumptuous, it's weird, and it gets old so quickly.
(17:36):
But there is one thing I wanted to add before
we continued, was that the modern use of cult is
not all bad still. We all love a cult classic
filled shout out to Big Trouble a Little China, you
know what I mean, And.
Speaker 5 (17:50):
That culture cult sprand that I was talking about, that's
a big part of what they put out. Like They've
got Evil Dead amazing design, Evil Dead shirts and you know,
Tetsuo the Iron Man Dead Alive and various.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
Things like that. So check out cultive cults. We're not sponsored,
it's just cool stuff.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
And what I wanted to say about Big Trouble in
Little China is that it's an extraordinarily complex film. There's
more to it. The protagonist is not who is presented
as the protagonist, layers within layers. That's what cults are
about too. But we talked about this previously too, and
this is important for our setup tonight. The revolution of
(18:24):
the information age created entirely new vectors of communication and
control for cults. Loose groups like QAnon check a lot
of the boxes for cult like organizations and tactics, but
they exist almost entirely online, and they still have real
world consequences. That guy didn't wake up and decide to
(18:47):
attack that pizza place he thought he was moving for
a greater purpose, and his mentor or the thing he
was a disciple of, was to his mind and named
q SO.
Speaker 5 (19:02):
And you could even argue that certain military organizations are
cult like and that they require absolute adherence to a
set of guidelines and directives.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Yeah, which is hopefully the constitution in theory.
Speaker 5 (19:16):
But then we know that that that can go a
way out of whack, and in other countries it does
start to rob people of their own agency when you're
part of those groups, because you will act exclusively based
on the input from said leader.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, shout out, Colonel Kurtz. And in times of desperation,
people go to alternatives that they would not have ordinarily
rationally considered.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We all start sabotaging everything.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
Yeah, we should have a meeting about that that we
can give to the committee that schedules meetings. Right. Oh,
check out our simple sabotage episode. It was so fun
and evil and sith Lordie. We do know. Weirdly enough,
even though we are increasingly in a surveillance state, it
(20:00):
is more difficult to monitor these groups today. It's easier
for them to slip under the radar until they become
dangerous and their members commit criminal acts like this is
why we see these factors sort of commingling to create
more cult like organizations than ever before. And it's tough
(20:22):
if you're an authority, if you're law enforcement, because you
have to justify the amount of surveillance. We all have
to pretend that cointelpro stopped, right, because if you surveil
people intensely without cause, you are making a strong case
that you're persecuting them for their religion or for their
(20:43):
personal beliefs. And that's a big no no and democracy
for now. Shout out to Palanteer and Foundry.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Yeah, shout out. Also shout out to Benino Massarro, who's
going on a god tour right now. Just got the
little email blast from that group, guys, it's really exciting stuff.
Bentino Masorrow started with a single YouTube video where he's
clearly snickering to himself about the video he's making to
(21:10):
a giant organization.
Speaker 5 (21:13):
And check out our episode on Masarrow which all is
he gonna be at in the Tri State area, bro.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
He's doing a freedom talk in Berlin, a weekend immersive
in Amsterdam, hanging out in Croatia, then going somewhere for
a mystery immersion.
Speaker 4 (21:29):
When is the Berlin one? Just out of curiosity?
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Oh, I don't know, July twenty sixth.
Speaker 4 (21:34):
Damn, I'll be there in September. I was gonna say,
I'm like.
Speaker 3 (21:37):
To a little eastern Yeah.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Well yeah, it makes me imagine what kind of surveillance
that dude's under. Like, right, people have to be watching him.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right, right, But he hasn't. They don't like him for
the specific violent crimes just yet, the ones that really
trip the radar. But you are surveilled if you go international.
And when's the Netherlands one Netherlands?
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Looking at his website August ninth and tenth.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
No good, I'm going to dodge it, all right. So
what happens when these groups do go bad? What happens
when a cult that you've never heard of finally gains
the attention of law enforcement and the public. Let's pause
for a word from our sponsors, and then we'll find out.
(22:27):
Here's where it gets crazy. We've established this right there.
There are so many examples of cults the average person
hasn't heard of in the modern day, and I think
a lot of them do want to stay on the radar.
Could we agree with that, you know, it.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
Was the grilled cheese sandwich one.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Yellow something. Yeah, yeah, it was fun yellow sub yellow Deli.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Yellow Deli, That's what it was. The yellow del have
to be what the hello Deli?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Very nice people, great sandwiches, seems so so people would say, uh,
we're being diplomatic here. Some people would say, well, a
lot of more conservative practitioners of Judaism will tell you
that the Hebrew Israelites are a cult and they run
sol vegetarian, which is likewise awesome.
Speaker 4 (23:14):
For sure. I haven't been, but I've been meaning to
do that.
Speaker 5 (23:16):
And I may have mentioned this before as well. In
my hometown and I think elsewhere in the country, there
is a group.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
It's a church.
Speaker 5 (23:23):
It's called the International House of Prayer for All People, and.
Speaker 4 (23:27):
They have a leader who.
Speaker 5 (23:31):
Sells his foot wash water and like as it's a thing,
like you want to wash the feet of the leader,
and they like that.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
Sweeney Lady, It's very similar to me.
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Right, that's a part of what is it much soap
ploy I forget this fella's name, but it is an individual.
And I went once in Augusta because they have a
really great soul food buffe that they do, it's like
cutting outreach and also generates income. So I mean it's
similar to the Yellow Deli situation, or perhaps we're so
soul vegetarian correctly.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
What I like about soul Vegetarian is they have never
tried to convert me, other than maybe up selling some
potato wedges, which are worth it. That was a good decision.
I want to thank the server.
Speaker 4 (24:14):
And they didn't either.
Speaker 5 (24:15):
At the International House of Prayer is very much just
like delicious homemade, you know, banana pudding and meeting three
kind of situations. No one spoke to me of joining
the church, but definitely some interesting ideology and you know
backstory for that organization.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
And we are not sponsored by these organizations, but will say,
if you think you don't like vegan food, try soul
Vegetarian next time you're in Atlanta. It's crazy because everything
we're saying here shows us that it is statistically certain
that the current world human world has hundreds, if not
thousands upon thousands of various organizations quietly going about with
(24:54):
cultish behavior. You may live in an area where everybody
knows there's a community a little on the outskirts of town.
They send some folks in right once a week, once
a month to get supplies or to sell some stuff,
and they are harmless. They have their own beliefs. They
may be odd. Why are all these people wearing turtlenecks
(25:15):
in summer or whatever?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
El Kintara guy?
Speaker 3 (25:19):
Who is this Elkintari guy? In many ways, there are
folks who got together, they agreed on some principles, they
made a community around those beliefs, and if they're not
hurting anyone, why would we bother persecuting them? Matt, do
you want to talk a little bit about El Katari.
Speaker 2 (25:36):
El kantarare we remember this is from Happy Science? This
is oh gosh, what was his name? Rio who Ohkawa
the guy that started Happy Science? And El Kantari is God.
But it's a new version of all of the versions,
all of the versions of God that have been worshiped
(25:57):
over all the years. We remember this guy. We talked
about him one our episodes.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
I think, yeah. The argument usually for these way of
the open hand, non confrontational cultic organizations, it's usually going
to be something like, hey, before us, everybody was doing
their best good hustle. They were a little inaccurate and
their hearts in the right place. Here's the real one.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
And also I am him now like Rio who says
he is now the news, he usually ends.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
Up that way. Yeah, he usually ends up that way.
And that's just the personality flaw of narcissism, right, But
that's not what we're here for now. We're not talking
about the nicey nice Oh. I forgot to mention this.
Why you guys are talking about esoterism. Consider eccentric checkers
esoteric the chess version, right, So eccentricity is acceptable in
(26:53):
most societies. Being esoteric can get you into some murky water.
So we're not exploring the nice and ice ones. We
want to explore examples of alleged cults that went to
a dark side. And let's start with the Zizians, because
we mentioned these bat on Strange News on our Strange
News program a while back, but we were I think
(27:16):
we were pushed for time, so we didn't get to
talk too much about it, but we did say we
wanted to return to a later, deeper examination. They're really
interesting because they are an ideological offshoot of something called rationalism,
not the old school rationalism. It's the twenty first century
(27:37):
school of thought. That was inspired by discussions on a
group of Internet blogs, and it became really really popular
in the Silicon Valley right in the Bay area of
San Francisco. It's very tech forward. Let's describe rationalism as
as this movement describes it something. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (27:57):
The idea there is that you can use objective rational thoughts.
It's fine to avoid the cognitive biases all humans struggle with.
And folks that are into this particular movement are also
often interested in futurism, transhumanism, the nature and horizons and
potential reach of AI, and social movements like effective altruism.
(28:20):
All these things sound fine except when you get the
you know, the AI part that maybe I don't know,
I've always wondered what we're looking like in terms of
actual AI worship.
Speaker 4 (28:31):
I feel like it's not far off, you know what
I mean.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
It really does feel like some people who talk about
it as though it were some sort of new divine power, right.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And these movements are concerned about just what you described there.
They're concerned about the role of AI and its effect
on organic minds. They're wondering, right, and we already, you know,
we have to say while this encompasses a myriad of
sometimes self contradicting concepts. There are real and valid concerns
(29:03):
about the amount of control that humans are giving these
large language models currently over their lives, and we may
talk about that in the future Strange News or listener
mail program. But I'm thinking of the people who have
believed that their chat gptsque service was sentient, was a god,
(29:24):
was their soulmate ordered or ordered them to go off
their meds or even commit acts of self harm. What
you got to remember is, right now, those things are
yes and machines very much. So they are not giving you.
They're not giving you the advice that a organic therapist
(29:48):
would approve of.
Speaker 5 (29:49):
Have we seen a lot in the news lately about kids, Yeah,
like believing in these things as they're like, you know,
special friend or imaginary friend or whatever. And I mean
I believe there were some stories even of a dut
that we're very much going down that particular rabbit hole.
So you know, there are a lot of lonely people
out there, and these technologies can be predatory.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
Imagine having a partner that never tells you you're wrong,
never checks you on anything right, and.
Speaker 4 (30:14):
Just yes, good but not good, not very.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
Much non ideal. It's also you know, years back, I
remember had said that we're increasingly as a society, we're
using technology as a vector to create supernatural things, all
the old folk tales, right. The story of the Gin
now is very much like a large language model. It's
(30:40):
a limited gin to check out our episodes on that, oh,
or get weird. All right, So, speaking of weird, the
Zizians take this idea that Noel just described here, this
series of interest and thoughts, and they run with it.
They advocate additionally for things like anarchism, veganism more increasingly
actually radical interpretations of that rationalist philosophy. And they describe
(31:04):
themselves as vegan, anarcho, transhumanist, and arcotranshumanist being one word.
It sounds fancy, right, and if you like fancy words,
it sounds legit. One of the best articles written about
this is back in February twenty twenty five for Wired
is by Evan Ratleth. It's called the Delirious, violent, impossible
(31:27):
True Story of the Zizians. So let's play with this
a little, I guess to be fair, this is an
active organization. The folks that would be identified by outsiders
and by law enforcement now on a federal level. As Zizians,
they find it offensive to be described as members of
(31:48):
a group. They find it offensive for someone to say
they have a leader. They say, we have discussions about concepts. Right,
we don't have anyone in charge. We aren't even really
a group, but we're going to use the term Zizian
for convenience and clarity with respect. And they kind of
(32:09):
do have a leader.
Speaker 2 (32:12):
Yeah, this is a very weird crew. And as you said,
we discussed them a little bit. There's a fantastic article
you can check out from PBS News called a timeline
of cult like Zizian group tied to killing of a
border patrol agent in Vermont. It just goes through like
the dates of when this stuff happened. But it is
weird how it all unfolded, because it seems like authorities
(32:33):
weren't even aware of them until there were several deaths.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
Right, Yeah, that's correct. It's similar to train hopping murders.
Oh and I met a train hopper cult too. The
closest thing they have the Zizians to a leader would
be the founder of the movement, a person known as
Jack ziz Lesoda goes by ziz Lesoda now and they only,
as Man was saying, they only came to the attention
(33:00):
of authorities after ziz Lsoda, who identifies as female, and
the group were linked to no less than six killings
across the United States, including the murder of that US
Border Patrol agent. This includes a double homicide in Pennsylvania,
stabbing in California. The shooting of the border guard occurred
(33:23):
in January of twenty twenty five. So these guys are
relatively fresh baked as far as colts go. And we
could do an episode or series all its own about
the escalation of the Zizians they started. Okay, So ziz
Lsoda was very active in organizations in the Bay Area
(33:45):
that champion rationalism, the Center for Applied Rationality. It's an
innocuous name, but they're not a bad group. You know,
outsiders the worst criticism you could level if you take
religion out of it. You could say these are nerdy
people who are very into philosophy, which is fine. Who
(34:05):
doesn't know a nerdy person into philosophy?
Speaker 5 (34:08):
And I mean, we've talked about this before. There is
an argument for AI being the ultimate form of rationalism,
you know, like if it is looking at all possibilities
and then making assessments based on data points and based
on you know, whatever the optimal conditions might be.
Speaker 4 (34:26):
I'm not saying that's how it.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Always works, because of course it's programmed by humans who
are inherently fallible. But I can see where this line
of thinking from rationalism into AI, you know, kind of flows.
Speaker 4 (34:37):
Yeah, but you can.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
You can have someone like Ziz who has that framework
right and then injects their own interesting weird concept. This
this concept that the two hemispheres of the human brain
are separate enough that they can have separate values, and
you can literally almost have two individuals living within your
(35:02):
you know that the complex of organs that we call
the brain.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
By cameral mind stuff, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (35:07):
Yes, But even to where you could have like literally
different human beings, different genders, different everything living inside you,
which yeah, you know makes up maybe some people interested
other people kind of like, I don't really get it.
Speaker 5 (35:21):
And then when you circivity to it though that I
don't mind, Like there's a certain like fluidness to that,
you know, yeah, gender at the very least, right, Like
that makes sense and seems cool.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
To me, But then it splits enough to where you've
got individuals who were maybe interested in the other stuff,
who are now deciding whether or not they believe that
thing as a core tenant. Right, and then splinter splinters
begin to occur.
Speaker 3 (35:46):
Yeah, I am vast. I contain multitudes. I kind of
wonder what is Lesota thinks of that recent film adaptation
of the Stephen King short story, The Life of Chuck.
I saw that earlier. Is it good?
Speaker 4 (35:59):
I didn't know that was Stephen King.
Speaker 3 (36:01):
I enjoyed it.
Speaker 4 (36:01):
It's based on a short story of streaming in theaters.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
It's in theaters.
Speaker 4 (36:05):
Have to put it on my list. I do love
Stephen King. And they're not all created equal, though, are they?
Speaker 3 (36:09):
No? Not everything can be as good as Maximum Overdrive.
But also go on. Everybody watched the trailer for Maximum Overdrive.
I'm Stephen King and I'm geta scare. I like yeah,
executive produced by Cocaine and Steve would say that too.
So this was.
Speaker 4 (36:29):
A time in his life where it was bad news.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yes, that movie made me terrified of the soda machines
A lot of time.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
I saw one of the I saw his semi. I
was on some off the grid stuff and I saw
a semi with that green goblin or hop goblin front
to spiece. Just for a second, I was thinking I
should get back in the car, probably just in case.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
That could exist.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
That's It's definitely was. It's like, you know, like a
fun trucker kind of thing.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
Yeah, they modit it.
Speaker 5 (37:03):
I remember the part where John Carlo Esposito in one
of his early roles, gets zapped by an arcade machine.
I want to say, yeah, yeah, yeah, bad like painted
on electricity, you know, coming on God.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
I love the way Stevie King writes anyway. Yeah, Life
at Shock. We're not sponsored by it, but we do.
I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts. I'd love to
see what you guys think of it. And the reason
I'm bringing that up why would be interesting for Lesta
and her non followers to watch it is because there
is a great emphasis upon the idea of the inner
(37:37):
mind as its own at times paradoxical universe. Barry Stephen King,
heady stuff. Anyway. Yeah, Lesta is originally involved and as
Matt said, originally involved with things like the c Far
Center for Applied Rationality, but then further injecting their own
(37:57):
beliefs creating communes with increasingly like minded people and then
asking or pushing the CFR and other organizations to fall
in line with those new beliefs. So this leads to
disagreements and tention, and that builds to protest, and that
(38:18):
builds to the intervention of law enforcement, and that builds
to legal action such that ziz Lesoda ends up committing
pseudo side. She fakes her own death in a boting
accident or what appears to be a boting accident at
the time, and she's on the lamb off the grid
from August of twenty twenty two to January of twenty
(38:40):
twenty three. She is found in a Philly hotel room.
Police are not specifically necessarily looking for her. Instead, they're
searching for a weapon that they believe was used in
some of those murders we described earlier. I believe the
double homicide. So Lesoda gets arrested because she has an
(39:01):
outstanding warrant for Shenanigans in California, also gets arrested on
charges of disorderly conduct, interfering with a police investigation, gets
released on a reduced unsecured bell of about bail of
about my tennessee came out. We can give it of
about thanks man about ten thousand dollars, shows up to
(39:25):
court that August, but then skips town and misses a
December court date, and then gets caught in a campsite
in Frostburg, Maryland, attempting the camp reported by the camp owner.
And right now as we record, Lesota and several non
followers associated with the Zizian movement are in custody without
(39:50):
bail this time because if you skip bail once, they're
they're not going to let you get a second go
at it, unfortunately. So if you do have to skip bail,
which we don't recommend, do it right the first time.
Oh yeah, it's true.
Speaker 2 (40:05):
Though we can't recommend that you look at the full
story of this enough because it is weird. There's a
sword fight at one point in this thing where a
landlord is trying to evict this group of people who
are living on his property in Vallejo, California, and they
he's attacked by a sword and he ends up getting
(40:28):
partially blinded or blinded in some way with the sword
and impaled by a sword and ends up yes and
ends up shooting and killing one of the people who
is a part.
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Of the group, and lend is eighty at this time.
By the way, he is a bruiser for an elderly human.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Well yeah, and he had a gun, so whoop's.
Speaker 3 (40:50):
Gone to a sword fight. Uh yeah, this is something
we may return to in more depth. There's been a
lot of work in journalism about this, so do check
out those swords for more. Uh. These actions bear all
the hallmarks of cultic tactics we described earlier. Unfortunately, due
(41:10):
to some of their philosophy that that very gender fluidity
that Noel described there, this became red meat for more
conservative factions of the US media right, and it was used,
unfortunately to vilify or villainize a lot of innocent people.
(41:30):
But I think it's fair to say, while we are
not the lawyers, and we are not the judges nor
the jury, they had to have done some of this.
The cysiasts did some of this stuff, they're guilty at
something for sure. Well.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, I mean the attack that we just described is
pretty well documented, and you know, the injuries to carl
In were well documented in the statements and all that stuff.
I mean, there's a lot of evidence that we're not discussing, right,
now on the on the show.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
We will be sure to update as the legal proceedings
involving Lesta and the group called the Zizians continue. But
for now, since we're in California, how about we stay
there for a moment and travel back to the early
nineteen seventies. This is where we see things that might
be called gangs by some and cults by others.
Speaker 5 (42:22):
Also in the Bay Area, the Zebra murders of nineteen
seventy three, much like the you know Zodiac killings, had
that area paralyzed with fear. The name came from a
crime wave of what would seem on the face like
random killings, with the only commonality being the victims were
(42:44):
Caucasian and the suspects targeting them were reported to be black.
So this is race war kind of vibes in terms
of like some of that fear that's sort of spreading
across the area. And these were particularly brutal murders and
involved things like sexualists and even forms of dismemberment decapitation.
Speaker 3 (43:04):
Yeah, yeah, it was really grody.
Speaker 2 (43:07):
Yeah, it's a It's an interesting thing to imagine it
because I think a lot of people know about Charles
Manson We've done episodes on Charles Manson. You can listen
to this right now. And this concept of helter skelter
and this concept of starting a race war on the
Caucasian side of a person who believes they are ultra
(43:28):
powerful and they want to begin the thing that will
start the end times or whatever that is. It's interesting
to see it flipped here in that way.
Speaker 3 (43:38):
One hundred percent yeah, because again I love that point.
It shows us that the tactics end up being the
one of the defining factors cult like activity. Ultimately, these
killers are linked to a militant Black Muslim group known
as the Death Angels, and they do self identify by
(43:58):
that name. The one of their victims who survived would
go on to be the future mayor of San Francisco.
But before he becomes the mayor, the guy we later
call Mayor Agnos talks to CBS News at the time
he's attacked after he goes to a meeting and they
(44:19):
do a terrible number on him, a lot of oregon spleen, injury,
you name it. But he does survive and he discloses
information that he has learned about the group, and he
says in order to be initiated into this murderous group.
The prospective or potential member has to kill a white person. Now,
that can be similar to other gang initiations. What makes
(44:42):
them occult is the tie to their interpretation of religious ideology.
Speaker 5 (44:47):
And some of those types of initiations often end up
being determined to be kind of urban lore, right, yeah,
like the whole like turn the link the brites or
whatever and then kill, you know, kill the first person
that does whatever the thing is, right, We hear those
in like scary stories to tell around the campfire type
things as well. This just has the vibe of that.
(45:07):
But this did I believe turn out to be true?
And then of course the heavy handed approach that law
enforcement took didn't really do much for the cause.
Speaker 3 (45:18):
Let's just say, right, yeah, you know, one hundred percent.
Speaker 4 (45:21):
Stopping frisk proto kind of stopping frisk type stock.
Speaker 3 (45:24):
One hundred percent. Yeah, and there was a lot of
hypocrisy to it too. It as well, We're incredibly fortunate
to have many members of Muslim faith in the stuff.
They don't want you to know, audience, So we want
to take pains to point out obviously, no one in
the actual Islamic community approves of heinous acts like this,
(45:47):
No one, you know what I mean, the police, definitely,
to your point, NOL could have handled it much better.
The mayor at the time is a guy named Joe Aliotto,
and he orders a city wide dragnet stuff frisk, question
all black mails between the ages of twenty and thirty,
five feet nine to six feet tall and medium build
(46:10):
So everybody gets hassled, right, and there's a big part
of the population. If you pass whatever arbitrary inspection law
enforcement has, then you are to be given I can't
believe this is true. What they called a zebra check card.
So then when you inevitably get stopped again, you can
show them the card that another officer is signed off
(46:32):
on and say, hey, I'm not the you know, I'm
not the person you're looking for. I'm not the killer
you're looking for. This did not work, and it was
super controversial because other political and religious activists were saying, Hey,
the Zodiac killer wasn't that long ago. Why weren't we
stopping and frisking every white dude, you know what I mean?
(46:53):
Why the hypocrisy and the panic here? Islamophobia? Is it racism?
Is it all of the above. It did end up
getting solved only because one member of the Death Angels,
a guy named Anthony Harris, was watching the news and
recognized himself from a composite sketch, a law enforcement sketch
(47:16):
based on eyewitnesses, and it looked enough like him that
he panicked. He called the cops, probably partially incentivized by
the monetary reward, and he's sang. He told them names, places, details, associations.
Four suspects get convicted of sixteen murders. They're given life sentences.
(47:37):
Harris goes into wit SEC witness production witness security, And
this is confusing. This is how prevalent a lot of
these obscure cults are because we didn't know this when
we're starting on the research. But later there was another
cult leader, guy named Yahwa bin Yawa, who recreated the
(47:59):
Death Angels in Florida, result in more than a dozen murders.
They were targeting what they saw is racial opponents as well,
but they were also targeting any dissidents within the organization
so that they could avoid having an Anthony Harris.
Speaker 2 (48:13):
Yeah, yeah, don't don't want that for sure, snitch in
the group, right, No.
Speaker 4 (48:20):
Jumps in the squadch sch Witsac.
Speaker 2 (48:23):
That's not Yeah, well, it's interesting when this happen. You're
talking about the timeline there with the Zodiac because it
was sixty eight to seventy that's when the confirmed Zodiac
killings were, so there was you can imagine parts of
the city, especially a little north of San Francisco, were
pretty freaked out because those were all Caucasian victims during
the Zodiac killings, and then you imagine there are a
(48:44):
bunch of other Caucasian people getting killed. It's no wonder
that there were connections made or you know, possible connections
made to the Zebra murders there or the what do
we call death angels. Yeah, it's it's interesting to see
how this kind of thing can come in waves where
there's either an individual who has decided or possibly a
(49:07):
group as in the Zodiac killing, like maybe it was
a group and then another group like this of like
minded people. You can have so many people killed.
Speaker 3 (49:15):
It's just it's nuts, Yeah, especially when bad faith actors
realize the tactics that will work right when you're trying
to get away with stuff. So they saw the way
law enforcement in the area operated and they realize the
exploits that could be deployed there. We're going to deploy
(49:38):
a second ad break. We're gonna take some time to
get a breather here because that got really dark, and
we'll be back with some more examples of cults you
have never heard of, or cults you maybe don't know
too much about. Weave returned monocuous name brides of Christ.
(50:02):
I could swear I've heard that as the moniker of
multiple religious organizations.
Speaker 5 (50:08):
I mean, I think it's actually used to refer to nuns, right.
Speaker 3 (50:12):
Right, right, right, yeah, So we're not talking about those
completely innocent organizations or groups of people.
Speaker 4 (50:23):
Innocent depending I mean, you know, case.
Speaker 3 (50:25):
By case by base, case by case, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.
If you go to the Oregon Encyclopedia, which has a
great rite up on this, we're going to learn about
another German, not like the Coconut guy in nineteen oh three,
a guy named Edmund Crefield is. He's thirty three years old.
He's an immigrant from Germany. He used to be a
(50:46):
captain in the Salvation Army, and.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
They had ranks in the Salvation Army to me.
Speaker 3 (50:54):
He so he goes to his former and current fellows
and he convinces about twenty Salvation Army soldiers and their
families in a town called Corvallis to join his new church.
Townspeople think it's ridiculous at first. They're like, oh, this
Poluca there you.
Speaker 5 (51:13):
Go, shout out, check out the Poluka episode of ridiculous history.
Speaker 4 (51:17):
What's going on with this guy?
Speaker 3 (51:18):
Though?
Speaker 4 (51:18):
He seems to be convincing.
Speaker 3 (51:20):
Right, yeah, yeah, he's definitely got the gift a gap.
He's talking twenty twenty families into joining up with his
new prophetic revelations. Turns out he he is the main
prophet of Christ, and then later he realizes he is Christ. Spoiler,
Colts don't really have a shamal on twist.
Speaker 4 (51:41):
To the logical masks.
Speaker 3 (51:43):
Next step, right right right, it's very uh what's that
great Bible on how to write screenplays? Save the cat?
Oh yeah, yeah, colts have a save the category for sure.
The townspeople here they pooh pooh and pishaw. These folks.
They call them holy rollers, so already a phrase at
the time, but then the news begins reporting strange things
(52:05):
they say. Crefield looked around at his followers, pointed to
the women and said, one of you will be the
mother of the returning Jesus Christ to do that to
figure this out, because we're all good Christians. I need
to lay hands upon you so I can purify you.
Speaker 5 (52:22):
Yeah, he got real handsy, indeed, and I don't know,
maybe there's a there's some really nasty stuff involving forcible
well enforceable is you know, they were obviously doing it
to some degree of free will, but you know, coerced
at the very least women in his flock to perform
sex acts on him with him in front of young members.
Speaker 3 (52:47):
Of the flock.
Speaker 4 (52:48):
Let's just say, it's really like you'd say, been unclean.
Speaker 3 (52:52):
Unclean agreed, and he denied all the allegations, but irrefutable
evidence of activities came to light and a lot of
several of those accusations proved solid. He eventually goes to
prison for adultery, which is a crime in that part
of the world at the time. He doesn't, you know,
(53:15):
get a life sentence for adultery. He's released in nineteen
oh six, and when he's released, he comes back to
his followers. He still has followers, and he says, I
realize that I am the return of Christ. Mainly it's
mainly me. I figured this out in the Hoo's gal
and me going to prison was sort of like when
(53:36):
Jesus Christ died and came back. Also, I have supernatural
divine powers. His followers are like, oh, yeah, you did
the San fran earthquake right, and He's like.
Speaker 4 (53:48):
Absolute, that was definitely me.
Speaker 3 (53:50):
Yeah, and he continued his activities. Eventually as followers and
their family members relatives who are trying to get their
loved ones out of this cult, they turn on because
you know what gifts. So Craffield is an interesting case
because he becomes a victim of his own cult. The
brother of one of the female members is really worried
(54:12):
that Craffield's going to try to get his hands on
this eighteen year old kid and quote unquote purifier. So
this guy tracks Crawfield down and murders him in front
of multiple witnesses. Ultimately, the judge is kind of on
the side of the murderer. That's another that's another weird,
(54:35):
I would say, anomalist part of this case. So that's
a Brides of Christ. The cult you probably haven't heard
of unless you grew up in that part of Oregon
in the early nineteen hundreds.
Speaker 2 (54:46):
Do you guys see the mugshot of Craffield.
Speaker 3 (54:49):
Yeah, he did it.
Speaker 2 (54:52):
I mean that's a.
Speaker 4 (54:54):
Ug right there, ug right.
Speaker 3 (54:58):
Oh gosh, don't let that guy get his hands on you.
It's so gross. They would roll around naked too. That's
just the Holy Rollers thing.
Speaker 2 (55:05):
Just that face telling you you need to be purified with.
Speaker 5 (55:09):
The stripe pajamas. Oh that's the Yeah, this is an
old timey prison shot. He's in the classic striped pajamas.
Speaker 4 (55:17):
What a stare dead eyes yep.
Speaker 3 (55:21):
So with that, folks, we've just given you a few
examples of Colts past and present that you probably haven't
heard of unless you follow Colt News closely Cult news closely.
But there there's so many more to get to. We
haven't even talked about profundity yours. The ant Hill Kids
amshon wrinko.
Speaker 5 (55:42):
The ant Hill Kids has like a fun after school gang,
like the Apple Dumpling Gang or something, you know, not
that those ant.
Speaker 3 (55:50):
Hill kids good stealing as apple pie off the ledge. Yeah,
and also this was there's so many of these organizations
with alleged or proven criminal acts that I actually I
got confused when I was looking into the ant Hill
Kids because I was thinking of that Central European cult
(56:13):
the ants, remember where that girl faked being a teenage
boy but that grown woman faked being a teenage boy
friend don't yours?
Speaker 4 (56:22):
Yeah I don't, but that sounds fascinating. I'm sure we
talked about it.
Speaker 3 (56:25):
I just and then.
Speaker 4 (56:27):
You get into a lot of this stuff.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
Well then she escaped getting in trouble and was found
again impersonating somebody new.
Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah, and then got away again and maybe out there
still do check out our episode on the family. We
have a lot of stuff diving into cults. Each of
the things we mentioned here could of course be their
own episode or indeed a series went in by saying,
if you are loved when or struggling to escape a
(56:55):
cultic environment, please remember you're not alone. There are tons
of resources out there to help. Although guys, I would say,
we recommend trying to steer clear of controversial deprogramming practices. Yeah, absolutely, yeah,
not good. Yeah, So you could check out, for example,
any number of online resources like cultescape dot com. We
(57:20):
also we recommended the excellent podcast Was I In a Cult?
Check that out. For now, we want to hear from you.
Please reach out tell us about the local suspected cults
or cultic organizations in your neck of the global woods.
Be safe out there. You can find us online. You
can drop us a telephone message. I like how I'm talking,
(57:43):
as though that's a new fangled invention. You could also
send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 4 (57:47):
That's right.
Speaker 5 (57:48):
You can find us at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist all over the internet, especially on XFKA, Twitter,
on YouTube we have video content if we are perusing Enjoyment,
and on Facebook with our Facebook group. Here's where it
gets crazy. On Instagram and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff Show.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself a
cool nickname and let us know if we can use
your name and message on the air. If you want
to send us an email, we have that too.
Speaker 3 (58:18):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the cult
writes back, So step a little further out into the dark.
Join us conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (58:51):
Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Stuff They Don't Want You To Know News
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.