Happy Halloween: How Selling Your Soul Works

In tonight's special Halloween episode, Ben, Matt, Noel and Super Producer Dylan lean on Ben's earlier experience with the paranormal. Tonight's question: Is it actually possible to sell your soul to infernal powers? Check this out: we learned how it works.

They don't want you to read our book.: https://static.macmillan.com/static/fib/stuff-you-should-read/

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeart Radio.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Gil.

Speaker 3 (00:29):
They call me Ben.

Speaker 4 (00:30):
We're joined as always with our super producer Dylan the
Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. You are here.
That makes this the stuff they don't want you to
know at the most wonderful time of the year, fellow
conspiracy realists. Now, we've been juggling some schedules, guys, as
we returned, as we played ketch Up, as we got

(00:52):
to hang with some very hell yeah, as we played
ketchup and mustard and hospital couple cases. We had such
a great time on our journey with several of our
fellow listeners over with Virgin Voyage on their true crime cruise.
And you know, one thing that I think we all

(01:12):
enjoyed about it was that a lot of our fellow
listeners who were hanging out with us were asking us
about episodes right, asking us about people, places, events, incidents,
And I don't know what your experience was but guys,
a lot of folks were asking me about doing more
paranormal episodes, supernatural spooky stuff.

Speaker 5 (01:34):
Well tis the season, indeed, and I think we're all
here for it.

Speaker 4 (01:38):
Oh yeah, agreed, agreed, So what can we do but
oblige this time of year more than any we thought
it would be appropriate to dive into an ancient supernatural
dare we say infernal concept, the idea that has haunted
humanity since before the written word, the concept there are
certain unseen powers behind the curtain of reality, and that

(02:02):
through specific rituals or actions, you can traffic with these
forces for profound worldly gain at a price.

Speaker 5 (02:12):
Well, and your results may vary, but consider this our
best crack atitutorial.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
High like that set up, we do have some tips
and tricks. According to the Mallius Malficarum.

Speaker 4 (02:22):
Yes, check out our episode on Grimoire's as well for
a deep dive into that. So we arrive at tonight's conspiracy.
You've met us here on the crossroads of the Internet
at midnight. Our question, can people really sell their souls?
Here are the facts. Every modern culture Christianity aside, but

(02:49):
every modern culture has some kind of version of selling
one soul, right.

Speaker 2 (02:55):
Well, yeah, and it's all based on someone who chooses
to live outside of the bounds that are set by
whatever society they're living in.

Speaker 6 (03:04):
Well, it's also all based on the idea that we
have a soul.

Speaker 5 (03:07):
And that that is like sort of one of those
religiously syncretistic things, this idea of the magic bit inside
of us that makes us alive and sentient.

Speaker 3 (03:17):
That twenty one grams that makes you special.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
As hip hop and weird science love to say, I
mean it's weird that well, weird, it's not the right word.
It's fascinating that, even in an increasingly secular climate, the
concept of selling one soul is still very common today.
It's often an idiom, and it means you are sacrificing integrity,

(03:40):
values and principles for some sort of perceived.

Speaker 6 (03:43):
Game, right, selling out like Bill Burr. Right.

Speaker 4 (03:46):
The most notable example recently in the Western world being
Saudi Arabia's Comedy Festival earlier this year.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah, and a lot exactly like that, and a lot
like taking on a giant loan to me, that's the
way I see selling a soul.

Speaker 5 (04:04):
Your soul is kind of the the what's the word
the collateral.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
Right in in some way, your soul is the thing
that let's say, if you're going to buy some crazy
mansion or something as especially an older person, and you
will probably never ever pay off that giant mansion that
you just put some collateral down on, but forever until
you die, you will be paying that. Well, I guess
in this case you'd be paying. You'd be paying after

(04:31):
you're dead too.

Speaker 6 (04:32):
It's never mind, because it's just this bargain.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yes, yeah, very sea org right, it's a it's a guarantee.
It's using some scientifically undefinable part of oneself, arguably the
most important part in religious schools of thought, as an
asset right that you can leverage. And when we go
to the secular meeting, to return to this for a second,
we're we've heard, ad nauseum all kinds of opprobrium and

(05:01):
criticism for those big, big name comics, people like Bill
Burr as He's I'm sorry, Dave Chappelle, all the hits,
the folks who don't need the money, by the way,
took the bag and performed at the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia,
and a lot of diehard fans, nonprofits, activists, stand up colleagues.

(05:22):
They gave these folks a lot of heat about this
because KSA has an atrocious human rights record. They have
a lot of money just to put it diplomatically and transparently.
Despite the kingdom's official denials, pretty much everybody outside of
the KSA is pretty sure that, like Russia, the KSA

(05:43):
tortures and murders people with no real consequence.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
I know, how could those comics do that and then
come home to this country where all we do is
murder people on boats randomly in the ocean all the time,
at least some time.

Speaker 4 (06:00):
Of course, there's no better way to interrupt an electoral
process than to start a war, and the CIA is
kind of pissed right now.

Speaker 5 (06:10):
Or divert attention from a certain Staco documents that individuals
would prefer remain buried.

Speaker 4 (06:16):
I know, I'm surprised that hasn't acquired that beautiful gate
suffix yet. For political scandals in the US, you know,
there's Watergate, there's Iran Gate. You just add gate to
the back Staine Gate, Epstein Gate. Why has that happened yet?

Speaker 5 (06:31):
It's a good question. I wonder if it's just no
longer in vogue. Maybe maybe that is a relic of
the past, but I would love to see more more Gates.

Speaker 2 (06:38):
So, speaking of Epstein, have we done a whole episode
on Jean Luke Brunell?

Speaker 3 (06:42):
We have not.

Speaker 2 (06:43):
I don't let's do an entire episode on that guy
who was Epstein's like partner and a very close associate
of Epstein.

Speaker 5 (06:53):
Well, the fact that I'm not even familiar with this
name and have obviously been following the story very closely
speaks volumes to me. At least I would love to
know more about this person. I'm sure, I'm certain we did.
It's just it, it does not seem like a name
that's floating around in the zeitgeists nearly as much as
it's clearly should.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Dude as a French modeling agent and he got caught
up on all this stuff, was like on the plane
all the time. Was one of the guys that brought
girls to Epstein and he was found hanged in his
cell in twenty twenty two. Right, we need to do
a whole episode.

Speaker 6 (07:27):
On ye, agreed.

Speaker 3 (07:28):
So back to selling one's soul.

Speaker 6 (07:30):
Here, you could argue, speaking of us, well, sure.

Speaker 4 (07:33):
Thing, Well, you can see the accusations of selling one's
soul now the way it's commonly used, they don't really
people don't really mean anything paranormal or supernatural about this.
They're saying, like you said, and all the concept of
selling out. And we see these accusations all the time
in modern history, startups to politicians, your favorite punk band

(07:55):
that makes it big, musicians, authors, even podcasters and streamers,
game developers. But the question then becomes, why does selling
one's soul have such rhetorical weight? Why is it still
such an insult in a world where people are increasingly irreligious.

Speaker 5 (08:13):
Well, and obviously we're going to get into the religious
aspects of it and the lore of it, but even
if you look at a lot of those religious texts
or some of these stories as more of a teachable
kind of parable, it really does one to one go
with this idea of selling out, of doing the bad
thing for the great gain, you know.

Speaker 3 (08:34):
Right, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
And I think especially if it hurts other people in
your rise to power or prominence or whatever it is,
if other people are injured, like either bodily or mentally
or whatever. I think that is when it really comes
into this selling your soul thing.

Speaker 4 (08:52):
It's also a real mechanism or an observation of deferred
gratification a lot of times the way. And we'll see
so really these stories as we continue, but one of
the common tropes or the common errors of a main character,
and a story about selling your soul is something that
we all do even today without the interference of Satanic powers.

(09:17):
You put a lot of stuff on the future, you right,
there's stuff you should do, but it's Saturday, and it's
nice night, so you put that on Sunday Bin or
tomorrow Matt or next day Nol. And this is a
common thing. This is something we'll see a lot in

(09:37):
the concept of selling one's soul as well, especially Fausti imbargains.
Maybe we can say the reason it still holds such weight,
the idea of selling one's soul or selling out, is
because multiple civilizations genuinely did and do believe in what
we're describing the concept of the soul, that infintesimal little
piece of the divine and every single human being just

(10:00):
by the virtue of being human, that bright light inside.

Speaker 5 (10:03):
You, as they say in yoga practice, you gotta honor it,
you know.

Speaker 4 (10:07):
Yeah, And we see this across religions, not just the
Abramaic ones, but Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism. Most spiritual belief systems
factor in the existence of something like a soul. Now,
like you said, your mileage may vary. They get their
own specific beliefs about how a soul works, what it
means in life, what it does or does not mean

(10:28):
after your physical death. And usually, to be quite honest,
these spiritual belief systems don't agree with each other because
a lot of organized religions hinge on the idea of exclusivity.

Speaker 5 (10:42):
Well, even the idea of having soul, or the cultural
implications of you got soul man soul music, you know,
a lot of that derives from gospel music and religious
music and then becomes a little more r and B
coded or funk coded, and there is now this kind
of concept of if someone's got soul, that means they
got they got vibes, right, they got like they got attitude,

(11:03):
but like in a good way.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah, But what good is the soul anyway? If that
soul is worshiping the wrong deity, what are you gonna
do with that?

Speaker 6 (11:13):
It's the ultimate religious quandary, isn't it.

Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, But if you got it wrong, that's the thing, right. Yeah,
that's the thing about religion. The credits don't transfer in
these things.

Speaker 6 (11:24):
You don't know till the end. You don't bet on
the right horse. You know, what if it's shakers.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
What if that's really what it is? Though, at the end,
you get like an equivalent credit for however awesome of
a worshiper you were, of whatever you worshiped. You get
like a little score you know what you did great?

Speaker 4 (11:41):
You get your ged You're God enough diploma.

Speaker 6 (11:44):
And there's the board up there somewhere, and you get
to see the look.

Speaker 5 (11:48):
Your place in the afterlife, whether you get like, you know,
a condo or a mansion or a palace.

Speaker 4 (11:54):
I don't like a hierarchical afterlife. That's just unnecessary here, Yeah,
I hear you.

Speaker 2 (12:01):
That's why I always liked the concept of karma because
it felt like you could, you could. It was quantitative
in a way, uh less qualitative, liked.

Speaker 6 (12:12):
D and how much right? And how would that be measured?

Speaker 4 (12:15):
If you haven't seen the excellent comedy philosophical comedy The
Good Place, please do check it out. If you like
this episode, then that series is right in your right
in your c zone.

Speaker 6 (12:29):
Mm hmm. Yeah, put it in my c zone. So
here's the thing.

Speaker 4 (12:33):
Okay, you can look at all sorts of established denominations
of larger religious belief systems, and you will always find
splinter groups or sects that claim they are the ones
with the true understanding of afterlife metaphysics and mechanisms, and
anyone who doesn't follow their particular brand is doomed to

(12:53):
hell or a less good after life. But we have
to ask, if a God does exist, then why does
this all powerful entity not just drop by for like
a ted talk every few months to set the record straight.
I mean, that guy God, according to so many religious texts,
used to show up all the time. You know what,

(13:14):
just pop it, burn a bush, had some advice, came
up with some rules.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
Yeah, but if you check out the Mallius Malficarum, there
is a deity that will stop by every time there's
a conclave of his slash her worshippers.

Speaker 4 (13:31):
It's right because the Malius gets the Malius is a
hit piece, as we'll see, but the witches Hammer does
get into some pretty juicy specifics. I mean, the idea though,
of selling one's soul comes from other older pre Christian
narratives the things that said, you know, unseen powerful forces exist.

(13:54):
They are sentions, right, they are sapients, so they are thinking,
and they are wise, and they can inc with you.
They're just not human.

Speaker 3 (14:01):
This could be a.

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Brownie be an ancestor spirit, a jin, a demon, a
loved ghost, and angel.

Speaker 5 (14:07):
Well, in the implication, there is that God or whichever
deity you worship owns your soul or is you know,
in some way has a stake in your soul, and
you are more or less taking that away from the
good side and lending it or you know, selling it
over to the bad sides you or you are switching
teams for all intents and purposes.

Speaker 4 (14:27):
Right right, It's a spiritual It's a profound spiritual betrayal.
I mean, we know the rise of modern monotheism arguing
for just the existence of one single God. We know
that really simplified a lot of spirituality because now we
can say there isn't sacro sayct good and an established

(14:48):
bad an oppositional force, and they're both working continually around
the clock to either save humanity or obliterated. And Christianity
and Islam, we could say, are particularly vulnerable to this
binary concept. You know, Christianity has the saints and the prophets,
and Islam has the prophets in the jin but you
can pray for the intercession of the saints. In some

(15:12):
types of Christianity, you can pray to that saint even
though you're saying there's only one God.

Speaker 5 (15:18):
And I'm sure this is the case in other religions too,
But in you know, Christian lore and text, there are
minor demons. There are lesser you know, infernal entities that
all have names and have their own mythology behind them
and all that stuff. And you could absolutely sell your
soul to one of them or worship one of them,
like a case in point of paym On.

Speaker 6 (15:38):
Yes, all hail from Hereditary.

Speaker 4 (15:41):
A zazel ball, you know of the other fallen angels
that kind of WU tanged up with Lucifer in the
beginning of the Fall.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, And they're all like generals that command a certain
number of army princes of Hell.

Speaker 6 (15:54):
Yeah, they really keys of Solomon. I believe is a
text that the outlines a lot of those. Was this
where payment came from? Anyway that I'm aware of?

Speaker 4 (16:02):
Yeah, also mentioned in our Grimoire episode. So I love
that callback we know that those devils or those demons
and their principalities also similar in an inversion of the
concept of patron saints. They have power over certain earthly things, right,
be that the weather, be that finance, be that romantic interest.

(16:25):
So you're right, it's a seller's market. You can find
somebody who are some thing that specializes in the stuff
you want and maybe crack a deal. You can also
in Islam, you can make deals with the jin because
they're one of God's creations. They're surprisingly similar to humans.
But there are more things out there, right and than

(16:47):
on all of our imaginings, deep in the sea, high
in the ink of space, right behind you. Sometimes, folks, tonight,
maybe we hone in on the Christian idea of selling
one's soul, because this could be a series if we
look at all different religions throughout history. Oh yeah, yeah,
So how about we share rituals and stories of people

(17:08):
who either genuinely attempted to summon the old gods, demons
or devils, or genuinely believe that they had sold their soul,
and then we can end on of course, the priceless question,
has anyone actually managed to sell their soul.

Speaker 3 (17:32):
Here's where it gets crazy, yes.

Speaker 6 (17:35):
At least according to the stories.

Speaker 4 (17:37):
All right, Now, as we pointed out earlier, to believe
in this magical process, you got to have some starting axioms.
You have to already assume that infernal and divine powers exist,
because they can't exist without each other. And then, just
for the sake of conversation, we'll take that as a given.
The concept of making a deal with the devil, treating

(17:57):
your immortal soul for worldly reward, it dates so far
back in Christianity. We all know the story in the
New Testament where Satan tempts Jesus in the desert, which
is basically a cell your soul pitch right well.

Speaker 5 (18:11):
And a lot of these, too, are monkeys paw type
situations where you get the thing that you think you want,
but they're like knock on consequences that you did not
consider that make the whole thing you wanted sort of
not worth it in the first place. And a lot
of this stuff you'll see in folklore and folk tales.
And one of my favorite depictions of this bargain is

(18:31):
Ariel selling her soul to the sea witch in The
Freaking Little Mermaid. I mean, it's more personified as her voice,
but it's this glowing orb that comes out of her.
And then she's blessed, I guess, with the ability to
walk on land. But then there's all of these horrific
knock on consequences and ultimately the sea Witch is the
devil and has her in the palm of her hand

(18:51):
to get exactly what she wants out of the situation,
which is what you see in a lot of these
black mass Christian kind of anti christ kind of ceremonies.

Speaker 6 (19:00):
That it's just and Ursula is just a real pill.
Oh I got terrifying too, and she gets all big
and stuff.

Speaker 3 (19:06):
At the end.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Man, yeah this I mean. Another example, of course, would
be that episode of The Simpsons where Homer trades his
soul for a donut, speaking of like instant versus deferred
gratitude of course.

Speaker 5 (19:21):
Just one of those classic sprinkle Simpsons donuts too. It
hasn't been with the layer of icing and then just
like the little yeah, not even stuffed, not even like
a cream field, just a standard.

Speaker 6 (19:32):
He wasn't thinking ahead.

Speaker 4 (19:33):
Treehouse of Horror is just the best part of the Simpsons,
I think, and.

Speaker 5 (19:39):
Has relatively maintained even in their lesser years. Usually you'll
see a treehouse and because of its inherent anthology type style,
usually continues to work.

Speaker 4 (19:48):
That's the only one I watched at this point. Yeah,
so okay. The specifics of the process, Let's say you
want to sell your soul, they vary based on the source,
but Western or Christian soul's usually follows a key a
few key beats. Right, it's Joseph Campbell stuff. It's story structure,
it's folklore, it's tropes. The person seeking a deal makes

(20:10):
contact with the devil or another demon through a ritual
like a black mass. Right, Maybe they get together and
have their dark tupperware party. Or they can sort consult
a grimlaw for instructions on going solo and doing their
own summoning ritual.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
Yeah, Or they can go into a church and just
renounce all of the stuff in the church and pledge
their loyalty to They call them the little Master in
the Malleus maleficar.

Speaker 3 (20:39):
Mm hmm, yeah like that.

Speaker 4 (20:40):
Well again, it's it's a book written by enemies of
these beliefs. I don't know, it's I can't Oh gosh,
I want to re listen to the grim wi episode again, I'm.

Speaker 2 (20:49):
Gonna keep bringing it, I'm sorry, because it's got actual,
like right instructions in there on how people confessed to
how they sold their souls to the de.

Speaker 4 (20:59):
Yeah, I think we'll talk about some of those folks
too in specific. Okay, So a black mass, how would
we explain a black mass?

Speaker 6 (21:09):
And what is deistic Satanism?

Speaker 5 (21:11):
It would be a bastardization or a blasphemization of a
Catholic mass, you know that is meant to honor God.
This is almost like a inverse of that.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly right, man, It's an intentional perversion,
blasphemous parody of a Catholic mass. And specific deistic Satanism
is the is what people mean when they're talking about
a Satanic panic. It's acknowledging that a God exists and
therefore an opposition party to that God exists. So that's

(21:46):
separate from other Satanism, which just uses the symbolism and
language of these belief systems but doesn't actually think there's
an evil bad guy or little Master or good man.

Speaker 5 (22:00):
They're just using iconography to their ends, right, Yeah, Like
as a way, and I'm a fan of that, Like,
I love co opting religious iconography. I think they're beautiful
and they can be really powerful and a fun way
of maybe doing a little bit of satire and maybe
you know, like I have a whole wall in my
house it's just crucifixes. I'm not Catholic, and there's something

(22:21):
almost slightly blasphemous about having a giant wall of nothing
but crucifixes, and that like does it for me a
little bit, you know. I don't mean sound like, oh,
I'm so clever, but it's just that's sort of something
that I'm interested in, is like inversion, subversion rather of
religious symbology.

Speaker 4 (22:35):
Yeah, and that can be I mean, that's a personal
journey too. It's not necessarily offensive at all. I think
it's an aesthetic. The crosses in black masses are a
course inverted, as you said, all manner of unclean and
per the stories of witch hunters. Really nasty things take
place the place of the Eucharist, like various bodily fluids,

(22:57):
maybe actual human flesh from a sacrifice, all kinds of
stuffings are certainly drinking of blood, yeah, blo seminon fluids.

Speaker 6 (23:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Unbaptized children is really popular.

Speaker 3 (23:08):
Right, especially in the film series.

Speaker 2 (23:10):
Warlock and in the Melia's Male Car.

Speaker 4 (23:14):
So most primary sources on this, let's talk about why
it's so skewed. Most of the primary sources on selling
one's soul or consorting with the infertile they come from
Latin and French, and they were not created by people
engaged in these practices, if they existed, they were created
by Christian authorities who wanted to crack down on belief

(23:37):
systems or practices that didn't match the uniform state religion.
So the majority of the actual literature you can find,
not just the Hammer of Witches, but all the other
gremoires we mentioned, The majority of that is written by critics,
not supporters, not fans, not people with necessarily first hand experience.

Speaker 6 (23:59):
They're trying to smear the.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Character of these folks who were outside of the norm.
There's a statement in Japan that translates to the nail
that stands out will get hammered down. That's why they
call it the hammer, which is yeah, because this is
a socio political control mechanism.

Speaker 6 (24:17):
The squeaky wheel gets the grease or the bodily fluids.

Speaker 2 (24:20):
Yes, most of the stuff that's in there was extracted
from people who were either you know, actively being tortured
or had been tortured for you know, weeks or months,
or we're trying to get out of being tortured.

Speaker 5 (24:33):
So, as we know that game of Telephone is already
a little wacky in terms of the way things mutate
over time, think about how that's contributed to by people
who are under duress and just trying to say something
that rings true or sounds just demonic enough to be believed,
you know, so that you'll go a quick death.

Speaker 6 (24:50):
Or feed names.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
Yeah, feed names you have other people, especially when you're
prompted to do so.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
What do you think about good wife Mary?

Speaker 4 (24:58):
Oh? Yeah, Oh she's totally a way. Can I keep
my other fingers's? That's what's happening, right?

Speaker 2 (25:04):
Why do you keep worshiping the evil one? Torture? Torture, torture?
Why are you worshiping the evil side? Torture, torture, torture?
Where are the good guys?

Speaker 6 (25:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (25:12):
Check check out how Dare You Have a Birthmark? Check
out our series, not just one episode, but our series
on whether or not torture works. Spoiler it does not
work the way it's advertised.

Speaker 6 (25:24):
Absolutely not. And like I said it definitely.

Speaker 5 (25:26):
It's a random numbers generator of weird that just kind
of gets absorbed by the culture, you know, and then
telephoned you know, throughout history. And I'm pretty sure that's
where some of these confessions quote unquote of rituals come from,
and then they get sort of tweaked and adjusted over time.

Speaker 4 (25:43):
Embellish, yeah, especially because they're a powerful political tool. There
are social control mechanism. There wasn't much in the way
of fact checking at the time. As a matter of fact,
act acting as a fact checker makes you look kind
of witchy yourself. So people were very frightened of witch
hunters and which finders and the inquisition, and we learned
a new word and the research for this. A guy

(26:05):
named Epiphanius of Salamis was a fourth century heresiologist, a
guy whose job is just a study heresy. Pretty neat
thing to say on a first date, no doubt. Yeah,
so he he is. He's a great example outside of
the usual grim laws of someone who uses accusations of

(26:29):
infernal trafficking and selling one soul to attack an outsider
group in his society. He says, there's this gnostic sect
called the borbarites, and they have a perverted version of Mass.
This may not be appropriate for all. First three to one,
they smear their hands with menstrual blood and seamen and

(26:51):
consume them in a parody of the body and blood
of Christ. And people believed it. They were like, look,
this guy took the time to write it down.

Speaker 3 (27:01):
Why would he be lying?

Speaker 5 (27:03):
Reasons right, we discussed. I love that you're mentioning the
Black Goat, Ben. I think we're all three or four
of us here big fans of David Egg Robert Egger's
rather the Witch, which I think personifies the Black mass
incredibly well, no spoilers for that, but this idea of
you know, being in Congress or having some sort of

(27:26):
dialogue with this black goat black Philip film in the film.

Speaker 4 (27:30):
I love that Twins song too, do you think do
you guys think the twins were witches?

Speaker 5 (27:37):
I think they had been bewitched, okay, And also there's
something inherently creepy about twins, and I think maybe the
film is leaning on that a little bit, but I
do think that's the case. I think whether they were
possessed or in some way a harbinger or like a
what's the word like a medium to carry whatever chifernal forces.

Speaker 6 (27:56):
I think they were part of it in some way,
like a vector for disease. There you go, Okay, yeah,
I like them.

Speaker 2 (28:03):
Got something from the Malley's bella of the car if
you want to hear it about the children and all
that stuff which is like applicable here is uh, this
is exactly what we just talked about. It's some kind
of confession, right, a coerced confession. This is a woman
saying we sent our snares, chiefly for unbaptized children, and

(28:24):
even for those that have been baptized, especially when they
have not been protected by the sign of the Cross
and prayers, and with our spells. We kill them in
their cradles, and even if they're sleeping by their parents' side,
in such a way that afterwards they're thought to have
been overlain or have died in some other natural death.
Then we secretly take them from their graves and we
cook them in a cauldron until the whole flesh comes

(28:44):
away from the bones. To make soup, for which may
easily be drunk of the solid matter, we make an
ungent which is of poultice.

Speaker 6 (28:51):
Like guy thing you rub all over yourself, which is
also in the wits.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Sorry, which is a virtue to help us in our
arts and pleasures, in our transport Haitians as in like
classically or spiritually transporting. And with the liquid we fill
a flask or skin, whoever drinks from which, with the
addition with a few other ceremonies, immediately acquires much knowledge.
It becomes a leader in our sect. So to me,
that's like that you're gaining something from doing these horrendous things,

(29:19):
in essentially selling your soul.

Speaker 6 (29:21):
I know, Ben, I know.

Speaker 5 (29:22):
Egger's really dug into a lot of like writing from
the period and tried to make things really accurate.

Speaker 6 (29:26):
He had to have been familiar with this book that
you guys are talking about.

Speaker 4 (29:30):
Yeah, he's definitely familiar with that Grimoi. He's also familiar
with the writings of people like Increase or Cotton Mather
Sinners in the hands of an Angry God and pretty
well read up on the ergod theories, and it also
read up on the idea of using hallucinogenic substances as

(29:50):
a masturbation aid, which is one of the possible theories
for the broomstick or the other flying implements.

Speaker 5 (29:58):
And Also, if you're you know, tripping your balls off,
you may very well believe that you're flying.

Speaker 6 (30:04):
You know, dude, I've had conversations with goats, you know what.
I mean, nothing wrong with it, But Matt, you mentioned
the word transportation.

Speaker 5 (30:13):
I believe in that little passage you distroyed and the
way it's depicted in some of the lord that I've
seen that was depicted in the Witch is rubbing that
goo all over them is what helps them fly, like
truly transportation, not just like you know, some sort of
spiritual movements, but like literal flying through the sky on
their you know, broomsticks.

Speaker 4 (30:32):
Yeah, because from the eyes of the enemy forces, the
authorities who are conducting this torture and social control from
through their eyes, all of the stuff they consider black
magic has to be a pay on demand kind of arrangement.

Speaker 3 (30:50):
So if you so, for.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Instance, I mean, and again, all these confessions, in my opinion,
are bs. Even though Malice Malathi Karam had did have
rules on paper about how confessions under torture had to
be confirmed. If you confess under torture, you have to
be moved to another place and then in.

Speaker 3 (31:11):
That other place with these other people.

Speaker 4 (31:14):
The victim has to confirm that they were truthfully confessing
and that it was not due to the fact that
someone was torturing the shit out of them. Thank you
for the detailan, but I mean, torture is gonna come
again if you don't give them the right results.

Speaker 6 (31:29):
It's an implied you better corroborate it.

Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, at this.

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Point, at this point in time, Geneva is just another town.

Speaker 3 (31:35):
It is not.

Speaker 4 (31:37):
It's not the inspiration for the Geneva Conventions.

Speaker 2 (31:40):
Yeah. I think there's something really interesting in this though.
In this time period you're talking fourteen eighties, fourteen eighty seven,
when when that book is written, when you know, and
well before that's when all the things that were basically ripped.
He ripped a bunch of people off when he wrote
that book. Was his name and Jacob Springer. So they

(32:03):
there's this thing though, I've been to a lot of churches, guys,
and I have never seen God or Jesus or any
deity appear before the congregation during any kind of ceremony,
no matter what it is. Been to a lot of
weddings where God is supposed to be. There've been to
a lot of religious ceremonies and there's never been a
deity involved, according to these stories that are written in

(32:26):
this book. And I think this is why it's so
powerful and maybe why so scary to establish religions, especially Christianity.
According to these writings, in these forced confessions, at the conclaves,
at the places where you know the devil is worshiped,
the devil shows up according to these things, like shows
up in person as a man, and they don't say

(32:49):
like sometimes, they say every time, right, And so they're
placing that in the mythology of it as And I
imagine how powerful that would be if you went and
you prayed, and you're the God that you're worshiping shows
up in physical form every time. That would be a
huge challenge to your religion if what your priests can't
make the God show up right.

Speaker 4 (33:10):
Yeah, So going back to our the concept we were
originally exploring here, the story beats or the process of
selling one's soul. There's the infamous signing of one's name
in the Devil's Book. This is the direct representation of
selling your soul in exchange for power on earth or
some kind of worldly response, be that true love, be

(33:35):
that finding gold, or in Homer Simpson's case, getting a
sick doughnut, the taste of butter, a pretty dress, all.

Speaker 6 (33:42):
The hits, just the taste, just the taste.

Speaker 5 (33:46):
And again in a Little Mermaid, Ariel very aggressively has
to scrawl her name in this growing tome that really
does have Devil's Book vibes. I know it's more of
a contract. Maybe it's not a book, it's a scroll
kind of thing, but it's the imagery is absolutely there.

Speaker 4 (34:01):
Yeah, and these are just a couple of examples, but
they are we could argue illustrative because you can see
how everything about this propaganda, which is what a lot
of it is, Everything about this propaganda provides a very
convenient rationale for church authorities and witch finders to seek
support as they quash spiritual rivals or even just financial

(34:26):
economic rivals in the wrong part of town. Because one
thing I remember taking college classes on this in particular,
but one thing that happened a lot with the inquisition
is these guys were working on commission, so it did
not they didn't make money if someone ended up being innocent,

(34:46):
but if they did bring somebody back to Christ, or
if they did find and stop a witch, then they
got their vig at the end from that person's assets.
So that's why older single women were often targeted. That's
why a lot of religious minorities were targeted. There was
a very real conspiracy at play. I mean, yeah, did

(35:08):
people do things that would look like a black mass
to outsiders on a routine basis? Maybe because it was
a non Christian religion, right, they could have been an
animist or nature worshiping kind of organization or institution, And yeah,
maybe they're dancing around with garlands.

Speaker 3 (35:26):
Maybe they do.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Have a black goat, and maybe they put some stuff
on the goat, right.

Speaker 6 (35:31):
Dude, you know, it just occurred to me, the whole
the taste of butter thing.

Speaker 5 (35:34):
I think we've talked about this on this show, but
also in ridiculous history, these butter boxes where people would
stick put money in these boxes to buy themselves indulgences
in order to be able to enjoy butter because it
was inherently considered too decadent or like too sinful. So
I think that whole the taste of butter thing is
a direct ref to that.

Speaker 6 (35:55):
That's really cool. It just occurred to that. Yeah, brilliant.

Speaker 2 (35:58):
I mean, oh, guys, I cook with a lot of butter.

Speaker 6 (36:03):
Oh no, you are damned, my friend.

Speaker 3 (36:06):
Ah, dang it, just right to the dam just right to.

Speaker 4 (36:10):
The in pope and tell him you'll buy him some furnet.
That's how those deals work. Oh yeah, that's the one, Malert.
Yeah yeah, I mean they're both equally. I'm choosing the
high root, all right. So look, some newly initiated devil
worshipers might sell their souls at a black mass, but

(36:30):
that also might not be the primary focus. Again, not
for nothing, we'll be saying an infernal tupperware party to
Catholic authorities. The black Mass is regularly conducted just to
sort of celebrate Satan in general, and then to get
together and say, here's some stuff I did to further
the cause of Satan in the world. You know, poison
to well, cow went back, cow went sick. I made

(36:52):
sure that the neighbors kids were still born, all kinds
of stuff like that. But you also don't have to
go to the party to sell your soul. There are
tons of other rituals, maybe animal or human sacrifice. You
make a summoning circle wrought with signs and sigils, You
prepare your magical ingredients, You recite a certain magical phrase

(37:12):
or incantation. Abercadabra, paymon, knock knock, who's there? Simsalabim?

Speaker 6 (37:19):
Is there a world been where you could sell your
soul by accident?

Speaker 7 (37:23):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (37:23):
Man?

Speaker 4 (37:24):
That's interesting, right, because I think the parables tell us
that you will. People sell their souls without realizing the consequences,
or as you said, a monkey's pause situation where they
don't know what they're wishing for. But I do like
the idea of accidentally selling one's soul. You'd have to
really stumble through some stuff there.

Speaker 5 (37:45):
That's exactly right, a real, a perfect storm of happenstance.
I actually just googled sell your soul by accident? Yeah,
and a Reddit thread came up in our Christianity, I'm
worried I might have accidentally sold my soul. And the
first response is if you are wondering if you sold
your soul, then no, you did not sell your soul.
People who sold their soul know that they sold their soul.

Speaker 4 (38:07):
We read a lot of Christian sources for this too,
and it's surprising even there how divided opinions can be
across denominations.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
Well, I think to a point we mentioned earlier, there
is a sense in certain religious denominations that your.

Speaker 6 (38:22):
Soul is not yours to sell. Yes, your soul is
the property of God.

Speaker 4 (38:26):
So it's not even like possible for you to do this, right,
or that you because you cannot sell your own soul.

Speaker 3 (38:34):
Some denominations would.

Speaker 4 (38:35):
Argue when you think that you're doing that, you're just
committing a great sin. But you can still pray for forgiveness,
so it's not the end of the game for you.
That's a nice version of the selling the soul story.

Speaker 6 (38:48):
I don't mind that.

Speaker 3 (38:49):
I don't mind it.

Speaker 2 (38:50):
Yeah, I think, yeah, I think there's a version where
you are tricked into believing you sold your soul to
do those horrifying things that are you know, outlined in
all of these sources or whatever, and then you're not
actually doing any kind of buying or selling, as you said, Ben,
you're just committing the awful acts. So there's no way
to get into the good place, the actual good place anymore.

Speaker 5 (39:11):
Still qualify for absolution if you play your cards right
down the line, right.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Right, maybe if you have enough money, but enough.

Speaker 4 (39:17):
Money in that butter box now, depending too upon your denomination, right,
So a lot of this, again is coming from enemies
of pretty much anybody non Catholic.

Speaker 6 (39:27):
Those are the folks who are writing about this.

Speaker 4 (39:29):
And as we're going to see, at no point in
all of history has anybody conclusively been proven to have
sold their soul, mainly because no one has conclusively scientifically
proven the existence of demons or Lucifer the light Bringer,
or souls or souls. But as we're about to see,
tons of people have been murdered on the basis of

(39:51):
these accusations. And there are tons of people throughout history who,
for one reason or another, claim to have sold their
soul and appear to really believe they did it, which.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Is and lots of right.

Speaker 4 (40:05):
Mostly yeah, mostly rumors, attempts at political or physiological assassination.
What see, We pause for word from our sponsors and
get into some examples because I say, yeah.

Speaker 6 (40:24):
All right, we're back.

Speaker 4 (40:26):
One of the first examples is a guy named Saint
Theophilus of a Donna.

Speaker 6 (40:33):
Yes, Saint Theophilius Theophyllis.

Speaker 5 (40:36):
Of a Donna is one of Christianity's older examples of
someone successfully selling their soul.

Speaker 6 (40:43):
So THEO as you have nicknamed him in the doc here.

Speaker 5 (40:47):
Ben, Yeah, it's a familiar it's a familiar, Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
We like THEO.

Speaker 5 (40:52):
He's got a good story here. He was indeed likely
a real person who lived and died so long ago. However,
that a lot of what we had tribute to him
has become at this point that game of telephone that
results in law and legend.

Speaker 4 (41:07):
Yeah, yeah, but definitely real dude, right, but I love
how you're saying this. He was born so long ago
that he's definitely become a kind of larger life figure.
But he is an actual facts Catholic saint. According to
the story, our buddy, THEO is working in a Donna
what we call modern day Turkey today. He gets offered

(41:28):
the position of bishop, and he's humble as all get out.
He's the opposite of a corporate shark. So at first
THEO says, ah, thank you, but you know, I'm not
some big time guy. I'm just doing my best. And
then he runs into an issue, real insult upon injury.
The church goes. They find this other guy to be
the bishop, and this guy has it out for THEO.

Speaker 6 (41:50):
For some reason.

Speaker 4 (41:51):
He's mad at him, so he either unfairly removes THEO
from his post or he doesn't give him what he
feels is an appropriate high ranking position in the local clergy.

Speaker 3 (42:05):
So Theo's not having it. He's not having it.

Speaker 4 (42:08):
He reaches out to wizard in the area, as you do,
I guess local wizard. Yeah, wizard goes through his rolodex
and puts THEO in touch with the actual devil, Satan Lucifer,
and Satan comes in and he says, you know, Bud, look,
I could make you to bishop if you renounce Christ
to the verge of Mary and sign this contract in

(42:30):
your own blood. How usually it goes normal negotiation, that's
all reseunds our contract. Wait, did you to sign yours
in pen or do you have to use blood too?

Speaker 5 (42:40):
I mean I tick a box that where I give
permission for it to be from my digital signature to
be transubstantiated into blood.

Speaker 3 (42:49):
Love it.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
Hey, And this is your reminder everybody out there who
works a corporate job, it's time for open enrollment wherever
you work, So make sure you sign your name and
blood on all those documents for you and all the
people you take care of.

Speaker 4 (43:03):
And open enrollment is just a terrible bit of language.

Speaker 6 (43:07):
It's just a dumb phrase. Open roll whatever it is dumb,
it is all right.

Speaker 2 (43:13):
Hey, you know I found out guys in our state
where you live, you you can't you can't have a
dependent who is a domestic partner if they're of the opposite.

Speaker 3 (43:24):
Sex, right, yes, that is as well?

Speaker 2 (43:28):
Wait what yes?

Speaker 3 (43:29):
Why you can't have a because.

Speaker 6 (43:31):
Because I want you to marry.

Speaker 5 (43:33):
Yeah, it's sort of like, yeah, I guess it's leaning
in favor of like, well, you got to get married
because I.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Know, yeah, thanks for making those conversations awkward. Uh, appreciate
state extra Uh none needed pressure big government, which is
such a non such a big government thing to do.

Speaker 3 (43:57):
It's quite the opposite anyway.

Speaker 4 (43:59):
No, no, I'm like Jesus walking away from the cliff,
not doing the soapbox.

Speaker 6 (44:04):
Now.

Speaker 4 (44:04):
I think we're all aligned on that because we're pretty
reasonable entities. But all right, So THEO negotiates with Satan
and he comes to regret his decision. This story has
kind of an happy ending, so it's either soon after
or several years into the game. He says, you know what, guys,

(44:25):
that's a boof on my part. I botched it. I
watched the whole thing. I'm publicly confessing I'm going to
make amends with the guy who's that other bishop, and
I'm gonna pray, I'm going to make a big to
do about it in front of the congregation, and I'm
going to fast like I am going on a hard
super starvation level fast, and eventually that other bishop burns

(44:48):
what THEO says is his contract with Satan and saves
his soul.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
So there's no torture in this one, Okay.

Speaker 5 (44:57):
It does imply, though, that that was a binding in
some way contract and then required some form of intervention
to nullify. So this does not necessarily follow that whole like,
the soul is not yours to sell.

Speaker 3 (45:09):
Right exactly?

Speaker 4 (45:11):
Yeah, denominational difference. I mean, you may have never heard
of THEO, folks, but this story may sound ierly familiar,
and that's because it's the basis for the most famous
example of soul selling ever Faust Man Love the Faust Story.

Speaker 5 (45:28):
Also an excellent German experimental band from the seventies Faust
Love Them. Yeah, And it's also the you know, the
basis of many of the Doctor Faustus. Of course, the
play there is the opera Faust. I mean, this is
an incredibly repeated and kind of styled on version of

(45:50):
this exact trope.

Speaker 4 (45:51):
Yeah, and like THEO, Faust is a real dude. The
inspiration for the Faustian tale of Interaction with the Devil
does feature a guy named Johann George Faust living in
the late fourteen hundreds to mid fifteen hundreds, prime time
to sell your soul in Western Europe. And this guy, Okay,

(46:13):
it's interesting because historians are divided. He's either a wandering alchemist,
astrologer and magician or a hedge wizard, or he's just
a con man and a heretic.

Speaker 5 (46:24):
Hey, look, one man's wizard is another man's con man,
flash heretic.

Speaker 6 (46:29):
Oh, things can be true.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
You could be all of.

Speaker 3 (46:31):
It exactly right.

Speaker 4 (46:33):
Sometimes the magic works and sometimes you've just rigged the deck.

Speaker 5 (46:37):
So I mean, Merlin was a bit of a huckster,
you know, in his own way, but he also did
have some powers. But he loved a power move, and
he was a manipulator.

Speaker 4 (46:45):
I love the We've referenced it before, but I love
the description Twain has in a Connecticut yankee in King
Arthur's court, because the yankee is really interested in figuring
out if Merlin can do actual magic and he has
this moment this is not a spoiler for the story,
which is great. He has this moment where he thinks,

(47:06):
holy crap, this merly guy one can't do real magic.
And two he drank his own flavor eight, like he
thinks he can do magic and he's surprised that it
doesn't work every time.

Speaker 6 (47:19):
That's funny.

Speaker 4 (47:20):
Maybe Faust is like that. Maybe he fell for his
own story. He's an educated fellow, right, yeah, yes, yeah,
he is in the story for sure. After his death,
the real Faust, he becomes the main character this folk legend.
And as he said, Noel Faust is real smarty pants.
He's an autodidact. He's what will later be called or

(47:41):
renaissance man. He is unhappy with life, even though he
because he knows most things, but he wants to know everything.

Speaker 3 (47:51):
And he's party.

Speaker 4 (47:52):
Yeah, he's party pretty hard, but he wants to have
all the hardest of parties.

Speaker 6 (47:56):
Isn't that funny?

Speaker 1 (47:57):
Though?

Speaker 6 (47:57):
I mean, even the creation Smith or whatever.

Speaker 5 (48:00):
I don't mean to be dismissive, but Adam and Eve,
the idea that the snake convinced Eve to eat from
the tree of knowledge knowledge is almost cast as like
you shouldn't have all the knowledge. That can be damning
or it can be corrupting, right, sure.

Speaker 4 (48:17):
I mean intelligence after a certain threshold is not evolutionarily advantageous, unfortunately.
But that's the But this is okay, this is our guy.
So there's something like Icarus esque about him. He wants more.
He wants to get closer and closer to the sun
here figuratively speaking. So he knows a lot already, he

(48:37):
just doesn't know everything. He leverages his knowledge of the
dark arts. He goes to a crossroads, makes the right sigils,
signs and incantations, and he attempts to summon Satan. The
actual Satan doesn't appear, but to our earlier point, he
sends one of his boys. He sends his representative Mephistopheles,
really cool name, and Mephistopheles makes it deal with him.

(49:00):
He says, look, Faust, you could tell magic is real.
I got a lot of these demon superpowers, and if
you agree to give me your soul in the future,
then I will be at your beck and call. You
can ask me Mephistopheles do this magic thing and boom,
it's gonna be done.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
Buddy, don't worry about it.

Speaker 4 (49:21):
I got you for a number of years, and Faust
is like, what happens after you know, seven years?

Speaker 3 (49:27):
That's a common one.

Speaker 2 (49:28):
What happened to he was like six or seven years?
Like six six, seven years, because.

Speaker 4 (49:33):
It varies depending on the story, but it's a specific
window of time. And after that time period expires, Faust
will be damned, be erased from earth, and he will
his soul will labor an eternal slavery.

Speaker 6 (49:49):
And he's cool with this. Wasn't a bait and switch?
Does he really spell it all out for him?

Speaker 3 (49:53):
Yes?

Speaker 4 (49:53):
Yeah, that's how the D and D alignment of h
was it legalistic evil?

Speaker 6 (49:59):
Dylan?

Speaker 3 (49:59):
What's that? Lawful evil?

Speaker 6 (50:01):
Lawful evil Indians?

Speaker 5 (50:02):
Okay, Yeah, So at this point it's really hard to
feel bad for old FAUSTI he knows exactly what he's doing.
He's not really being tricked. There's no monkey's paw hidden
consequences here. It's all spelled out for him. He just
wants it that bad.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
Hmm.

Speaker 3 (50:18):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 4 (50:19):
He's fine with it at first, because future Faust might
as well be a different person, a stranger, just the
way like Sunday Bin or next Day nol or Matt
Tomorrow might all be different people if you want to
have a lazy Saturday. So he and Mephistopheles get into
all sorts of shenanigans. I don't know why I had

(50:39):
spurts of shenanigans there. I think I was doing a joke.

Speaker 3 (50:44):
But all right.

Speaker 4 (50:45):
So in the Tragical History of the Life and Death
of Doctor Faustus, that's one by Marlow, things do not
end well. Faust does try to get out of his
contract unsuccessfully. He wrongs a bunch of people on the way,
and he does not hit redemption.

Speaker 3 (51:01):
He goes to hell.

Speaker 5 (51:03):
Well, it's also one of those things where past you
making a deal that future you might not really be
as excited about. It's another example, or at least the
parable here, I guess where it's about kind of not writing,
having your mouth write a check that you're whatever can't cash,
you know, down the line, it's like, oh my god,
why did I do that. It's really important to think

(51:24):
ahead and think about future you a little bit, because
I guess I was a little foggy on the fact
that he knew the consequences. He just thought it was
worth it. And if I'm not mistaken, at least in
some of the dramatizations. He sort of finds love in
that period and is like very much like finds the
happiness that he always wanted outs and realizes maybe that
all of those worldly things aren't that important and sort

(51:46):
of grows.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
A little bit.

Speaker 6 (51:46):
Only that'd be rug pulled.

Speaker 5 (51:48):
When the time comes and the devil come shows up
and calls in his bargain.

Speaker 6 (51:52):
Right he does.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
In a later story, the one by Gerta, Faust does
turn things around at the end, and it's like you
were saying, no, it's thanks to the love of a
woman that he did wrong and in a very serious way.
But she sticks by him, and then he has serious
acts of penitence toward God, and because this woman intercedes

(52:16):
for him, are on his behalf to pray for his forgiveness.
He starts to turn around a little earlier than in
the original story. He reaches the end of the contract,
he says.

Speaker 3 (52:28):
Ah, you know, maybe now that I am.

Speaker 4 (52:30):
Future false Faust, maybe this was a bad idea. Oh
past Faust, you jackass. So he does. In the second version,
he does reach redemption. This is the basis for countless
other works of film and fiction. You don't have to
read this story or the plays to know it already, just.

Speaker 5 (52:49):
The term faust, the embarging it all the time for
just that exact thing where you, in the moment make
a deal that when the time comes you utterly regrets
and is not ultimately in your best interest.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
The story is a nice inversion of the late fourteen hundreds, well,
let's say the fourteen hundreds, fifteen hundreds, any a lot
of time before that where only women could become servants
of the devil. And that's at least in the Malleus maleficarum.
That's one of the things. You had to be a
woman to be a servant of the devil in one
of these things, or you had to be tempted essentially

(53:22):
by one of these witches to take yourself in. At
least in this case, it's a male figure that is
doing the wrong stuff and being tempted and is the
bad guy.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
Oh and in another case, even popes have been accused
of selling their souls. Pope Sylvester the Second he was
a real smart guy. He is credited with inventing things
like a kind of pendulum clock and the hydraulic organ is. Also,
he's often cited as one of the reasons Western Europe

(53:56):
started using the Arabic numeral system, which was controversial. He
never publicly said he sold his soul, but when he died,
because so many popes have enemies in the church and
they all kind of hate each other. After he died,
these rumors started spreading, and all his critics said, you
know what, nobody is actually that smart on their own.

Speaker 6 (54:20):
Now did he do it? Well?

Speaker 4 (54:21):
Was he reading books like a nerd?

Speaker 2 (54:24):
Nah?

Speaker 6 (54:25):
Nah had to have been the devil. Yeah, that's true.

Speaker 5 (54:28):
All those inventions, this idea of that profound knowledge kind
of you know, going back to the idea of knowledge
being corrupting or in some way from the forces.

Speaker 6 (54:40):
Of the infernal.

Speaker 5 (54:41):
This was more than anything, like you said, Ben, a
product of politicking. You know, the people who were against
Sylvester may have genuinely believed that he was up to something,
but it's more likely that they didn't like that dialogue
you mentioned man with some of the great thinkers of
the Arab world.

Speaker 6 (54:59):
They considered that perhaps to be a bit of heresy.

Speaker 4 (55:03):
Absolutely right, because you think Islamophobia is bad, now.

Speaker 3 (55:09):
Go back a few centuries.

Speaker 5 (55:10):
Wasn't he also one that was trying to kind of
root out some of the corrupt forces of corruption within
the organization the church.

Speaker 4 (55:18):
One hundred percent right, and I love that you're bringing
that up. It was specifically he was specifically fighting against
the widespread practice of something called semone spelled like simon
with a y, indulgences, buy in or selling of offices,
just financial corruption in the church, which continues today.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
That's right, Yeah, tithing and stuff, I mean whatever like
tithe you give your money to whatever cause you think
is worthy of it. But there has historically been example,
many examples of monetary corruption, whether it be you know,
buy your way to a clean slate, or the ability
to eat butter when you want the.

Speaker 4 (56:00):
Right exactly, or to break the diet and fasting rules
that kind of thing, right, we also know. Look, those
are some of the fancy historical versions of selling one
soul to the devil. But there's an entirely different genre
of story, which is I think a lot more fun full.
Keyros who managed the witten chance to outsmart infernal powers.

(56:21):
They get one over on the forces of hell being
here in the fair metropolis of Atlanta, folks. Our most
familiar reference to this is the song that Devil Went
down to Georgia.

Speaker 6 (56:32):
Remember that, looking for a soul to steal?

Speaker 3 (56:34):
Yeah, yeah, oh man.

Speaker 6 (56:37):
Fire on the Mountain run by.

Speaker 5 (56:40):
It's really good, Charlie Daniels excellent, excellent, excellent tune and
such a cool story. And again this faustianbarroom, but it's
flipped because our boy Johnny is going toe to toe
with the devil and he comes out on top.

Speaker 6 (56:54):
He's not really making a deal.

Speaker 2 (56:56):
He's just that.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
Good and he's ballsy.

Speaker 5 (56:58):
Yeah, this is a shred in that fiddle, by the way, Yes,
that's what we're talking about.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
The original version of this would be he goes down
to Georgia and makes deal with the devil so he
can play the fiddle the way he can, right. I
don't know though, but that's the way a bargain would be.
The original troupe, Yeah I can. What I'm saying is
this is an inversion of exactly. It's a beautiful it's
really neat.

Speaker 4 (57:22):
And this is an echo of all sorts of similar
folkloric stories of the the kind of unconventional Maverick character
who may not be book smart, but they have a
lot of street smarts, like old Bittenbinder from Milany's childhood.
Another example of this is Samander the Learned, who's an

(57:44):
Icelandic folk hero or I guess Samander the Learned he
was an Icelandic priest and scholar from like the ten
hundreds to the eleven hundreds.

Speaker 3 (57:54):
Also is a real dude.

Speaker 4 (57:56):
Also, when he died, he became a larger than life
folklore character. And this guy routinely tricks the Devil into
helping him out with stuff so many stories that honestly,
the Devil looks kind of like a klutz in agon.

Speaker 5 (58:10):
Can I also just really quickly double back to Johnny
and devil went down.

Speaker 6 (58:13):
He does make a bargain.

Speaker 5 (58:15):
The bargain is, if I can't outplay you, you.

Speaker 6 (58:19):
Get my soul.

Speaker 5 (58:20):
And if I do, then I get a gold fiddle,
a magical gold fiddle. But it's not like he's making
the bargain in order to achieve his abilities. He's already
got those, and he's basically saying, yeah, I'll go toe
to toe with you, the devil.

Speaker 6 (58:35):
And if you lose, the devil will get your soul.

Speaker 4 (58:40):
The devil said, I'll start this show in fire flew
from his fingers as he rossed his boat.

Speaker 6 (58:45):
Oh okay, nope, getting too far into it.

Speaker 5 (58:47):
Y'all listen to it if you have, I'm sure it's
a good hang from front to back. Just give it
a listen. It's a really good Halloween song.

Speaker 4 (58:55):
It's somehow not uh not awkward country hip hop.

Speaker 2 (58:59):
Yes, and it's not the greatest song in the world,
but it is.

Speaker 3 (59:03):
It's a tribute.

Speaker 4 (59:04):
Yeah. So back to Iceland. In several different stories, we
see things like one example would be Simon Deer goes
to the devil and says, I need I need a
trip back home to Iceland from Europe, and I'll make
a deal with you. You change into a seal and

(59:26):
carry me across the waters, and then at the end,
I'll give you my soul. And at the end, instead
of giving up his soul, maybe this is funnier in
icelandic or sounds more clever. He bonks Satan on the
head with a Bible while Satan is still a seal,
and then he runs away.

Speaker 5 (59:47):
That's pretty funny, like, oh no, if if I weren't
a seal, I would I would get you.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
How did he know about the bonk and run clause
also makes me think of like, you know what the
devil I will sell you my soul for double the
Delta sky miles. You know, like it's a little bit
of an underwhelming deal.

Speaker 6 (01:00:10):
He's getting a ride.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:00:12):
Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, in those days
it was you know, a lot need to navigate that
kind of journey. But still you think he would have
asked for a few little add ons.

Speaker 4 (01:00:21):
He does swindle Satan into teaching him the Dark Arts
and Iceland's version of the Scholomance or the Black School,
and he escapes every single time in the story. If
you like stories about school amounts and dark arts institutions,
please check out Crabat. I think in English it's The

(01:00:43):
Satanic Mill. It's a young adult story that I recently
reread and it is just a banger for Halloween.

Speaker 2 (01:00:51):
Nice.

Speaker 4 (01:00:51):
Yeah, the Satanic Mill. I think if you were for
anybody who wants to give a kid a spooky story,
I would say this is a pro.

Speaker 3 (01:01:00):
If you're like ten or eleven.

Speaker 4 (01:01:02):
I think would be the entry level for that story.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
Heck, yeah, that's awesome. I was gonna ask you to
spell it because how k R A B A T
got it?

Speaker 6 (01:01:14):
Awesome?

Speaker 2 (01:01:16):
Guys, can you imagine writing a seal through the waters
that between Iceland and wherever you're heading to in Europe.

Speaker 6 (01:01:23):
Doesn't seem like you make It seems feels like it depends.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
I had a seal too, you know, yeah, but it
feels like one wouldn't do the job, and there are
other there are literally other creatures in the sea that
would be better at transport.

Speaker 5 (01:01:38):
And doesn't this also sort of reminds you of like
Greek mythology, like Zeus turning into a swan and having
intercourse with the woman and all of that kind of
you know what I mean, Like it just it has
that certain fantastical quality to it, Like, I don't know,
this is meant to be taken at face value.

Speaker 4 (01:01:54):
Maybe he got caught getting sexy with a seal in
real life and had to come up with a story
to rationalize it.

Speaker 5 (01:02:01):
Gay, stranger things have happened, Christianity was born.

Speaker 4 (01:02:05):
Yes, right, there's another guy, John Fian. This is a
not a fol hero story. This is one of the
darker ones. This is what we mean when we talk
about political assassination. Here's the tale, Dylan. If we could
get some old timey like court music, something with a fife.

(01:02:28):
I don't know, you're the expert at this. So it's
fifteen eighty nine.

Speaker 3 (01:02:33):
There's a guy.

Speaker 4 (01:02:33):
Named King James the sixth of Scotland. He's going to
marry a lady named Princess Anne of Denmark. The princess
sails to Scotland and the weather turns on them, so
her crew has to call the journey short and find
shelter in Norway. They blame the storms on malevolent witches,
and the King is saying, these witches.

Speaker 6 (01:02:57):
Are trying to ruin our marriage.

Speaker 4 (01:02:58):
And because this wasn't just you know, some random dude
or cheesemonger or fishmonger, because it was the King saying this,
Denmark and Scotland instituted large scale inquisitions and for two
years they hunted sorcerers all because the weather was bad
when they were trying to make this marriage happen. King

(01:03:19):
James personally supervised some of the tortures and examinations, and
one guy got accused was doctor John fiah Fiam.

Speaker 5 (01:03:28):
He was named by another suspected practitioner of the dark
arts named Gillis Duncan. Again, under extreme torture, Gillis confessed
or stated or began rather to name names all sorts
of people that they counted as witchy colleagues or lucky
colleagues as well. And the inquisitors were super into this information.

Speaker 6 (01:03:52):
As you'd imagine they might be.

Speaker 4 (01:03:54):
M Yeah, they like every aspect of it. Man, and
they tortured the heck out of John. Initially he said
I had nothing to confess, and then beat the crap
out of him, beat the tar out of him, beat
the Christ out of him. They burned him, they broke
his bones, you name it. We don't have to get
into all the ways they tortured him, but if you

(01:04:15):
can picture most forms of torture, they probably did it.
And so finally he confesses and he says, Okay, my
soul belongs to the devil. I made a deal with
the devil a long time ago. And then he starts,
similar to like killers who were locked up for life,
who make false confessions to get favors in prison. He

(01:04:36):
starts regaling the court with all these stories. He says,
you know, I've bewitched women and men alike. It doesn't
matter to me. Also, one time I had a spell
that went wrong, so I slept with a cow my bag.

Speaker 5 (01:04:49):
Have you thought about just the simple answer that the
longer he's telling compelling stories in real time.

Speaker 6 (01:04:56):
That's time that they won't be torturing him. Just literally,
that simple.

Speaker 5 (01:05:01):
If you keep gabbing, keep yapping about devil stuff, they're
gonna be listening intently rather than shoving hot metal rods
up your pee hole.

Speaker 4 (01:05:09):
Yeah, similar to one thousand and one Arabian Nights right
where if you keep telling the stories, you can put
off your death.

Speaker 6 (01:05:16):
It's like a filibuster, you know it is. He philibustered.
He philibustered.

Speaker 4 (01:05:20):
The court noel, and he does promise to renounce Satan.
He said, the devil came to visit me in the night,
the white wand in his hand. He persuaded, tried to
persuade me to keep his vow and serve him. But
I castigated the arch fiend, telling him I utterly forsake
thee utterly utterly cow jokes and so so the devil

(01:05:43):
supposedly breaks the white wand and says that once air
thou die, thou shalt be mine. So he's like, look, whatever,
you can't break the deal. When you die, John, I'm
coming for you. The court believed most of his story,
by the way, and he eventually escapes custody, he steals
the gelhouse key, he goes on the lamb. The authorities

(01:06:06):
catch up to him, and this time they just torture.

Speaker 3 (01:06:09):
Him to kill him. They're not really asking questions.

Speaker 6 (01:06:12):
Yeah, just for funzies at this point.

Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Just for funzies.

Speaker 4 (01:06:15):
And I guess we should end on some more positive things. Musicians, right,
Musicians are big part of selling one Soul?

Speaker 3 (01:06:24):
Are they all stories?

Speaker 5 (01:06:25):
And that's Charlie Daniels tune is very much inspired by
this Robert Johnson story for example, that you also beautifully quoted.
I don't think we read it at the beginning of
the episode in the dock here me and the Devil
was walking by my side, Me and the devil who
was walking by my side from Me and the Devil
Blues by Robert Johnson.

Speaker 6 (01:06:45):
Yeah, this is interesting.

Speaker 4 (01:06:47):
Well fast forward for one Paganini. We should mention we
got a ridiculous history episode about this. It's a violinist
kind of like you know Nicolo Paganini is he's a
rock star musician and he was.

Speaker 6 (01:07:01):
Beloved by the ladies and he could shred that fetal
for sure.

Speaker 7 (01:07:04):
Yeah, it was real weird with it, like a like
a nineteen eighties heavy metal lead guitarist the way he
played violin, and people started joking he sold his soul
to the devil so he could be a good violinist.

Speaker 4 (01:07:18):
But here's the thing. It started as a joke, and
then some people, maybe more credulous people, would go see
him perform in concert, and then more than one of
those folks would walk away thinking, holy crap, maybe he
did sell his soul.

Speaker 6 (01:07:32):
He was just that good. He was just that good.

Speaker 3 (01:07:36):
But that's dud, dude.

Speaker 6 (01:07:37):
Check out that episode.

Speaker 5 (01:07:38):
There's some other interesting details that I remember being surprised
by from that story.

Speaker 3 (01:07:43):
Yeah, and the name's just fun to say.

Speaker 4 (01:07:45):
Paganini pagan I don't I don't know what it reminds
me of, but it's something delicious.

Speaker 5 (01:07:50):
Reminds me of the guy that created I don't know
why Peyo was his name.

Speaker 6 (01:07:54):
Now it's unrelated.

Speaker 4 (01:07:57):
I think maybe they're all related. Press sandwiches, the Smurfs,
and devil worshiping violinist.

Speaker 6 (01:08:03):
I would sell my soul for a good pressed sandwich. Yeah,
I would sell.

Speaker 4 (01:08:07):
I want to get into the idea of fractional soul
selling or can you lease your soul?

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
Can you like?

Speaker 6 (01:08:13):
Can you sell a portion of it, subleist.

Speaker 4 (01:08:18):
Exactly what other financial mechanism should we apply to the
soul selling market. I feel like there are futures here.
There's plenty speculation options, commodity.

Speaker 6 (01:08:28):
And sell a put or a call. You can still
fully understand you can short someone's soul, all right.

Speaker 4 (01:08:36):
The last one, the one that you set up so
beautifully there, Robert or Bobby Johnson versus Tommy Johnson. Robert
Johnson's the guy you're going to hear about the most.
He's featured in O Brother, where Art thou Stude who
sold his soul at the crossroads to the devil. The
devil showed up in midnight, tuned his guitar, he made

(01:08:56):
a deal. But that story is based on an earlier
guy named Tommy Johnson and from the Mississippi Delta, United States,
very active in the movement that was sometimes called the
Delta Blues, sometimes called the Devil's Blues.

Speaker 5 (01:09:11):
Well, and I don't believe it's certainly meant to be
a one to one of this character.

Speaker 6 (01:09:15):
But in.

Speaker 5 (01:09:17):
Sinners, oh yeah, there's a great character who's sort of
the prospective character who the movie starts off with him
wandering into the church with his smash guitar and looking
all at them, and you wonder what happened to this guy,
and your mind immediately jumps to dude made a deal
with the devil so that he could, you know, rock
that sweet sweet delta blues.

Speaker 4 (01:09:35):
Yeah, and it's weird to hear historical accounts of Tommy Johnson,
who is again a real person, so is Robert Johnson.

Speaker 6 (01:09:43):
But there's recordings.

Speaker 5 (01:09:44):
There are absolutely you know, you can find really cool
sounding archival recordings of Robert Johnson just haunting.

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):
I love it, and so guy's absolute legend. The thing
with Tommy Johnson is, according to people who were around
at the time, who are on record, Tommy Johnson originally
was not that good at guitar. They said he was
just making noise, and he got run out of juke
joints when the audience didn't dig his stuff. So he disappears,

(01:10:11):
and when he comes back.

Speaker 6 (01:10:13):
He's really really good.

Speaker 4 (01:10:16):
And people couldn't explain the sudden jump in talent and
acumen and ability, and so he said, I got a tip.
You visit the crossroads at midnight, this mysterious stranger meets you.
Tune trick guitar, make a deal with him, you become
the world's best musician. And aside from the supernatural stuff,
the timeline, the chain of events seems legit. Tommy Johnson

(01:10:40):
leaned into this too because it was great marketing.

Speaker 6 (01:10:43):
Clearly we're talking about it today.

Speaker 4 (01:10:45):
Robert Johnson leaned into it kind of the way like
Alice Cooper might lean into satanic rumors, even though, as
Wayne's World proved, he's like the nicest guy.

Speaker 6 (01:10:57):
Does this guy know how to party or what?

Speaker 5 (01:11:00):
I saw Alice Cooper at a local music festival a
handful of years ago, and it was one of the
coolest live shows I've ever seen. Had a giant spooky
castle backdrop and like a guillatine comes out at one
point he cuts his head.

Speaker 6 (01:11:12):
Off, and it's so theatrical. It was a lot of fun.
Highly recommend checking out Alice Cooper if he comes.

Speaker 4 (01:11:18):
Around and then he like goes backstage and puts on
his comfy socks and has some earl gray.

Speaker 5 (01:11:23):
He loves playing golf too, and he also apparently volunteers
at his local soup kitchen like a regular, really good guy.

Speaker 4 (01:11:29):
Cool guy. We also, okay, there was one twist. There
are so many other examples.

Speaker 5 (01:11:34):
Tommy and Robert not are they just kind of interchanged
because they're similar, and the story sort of gets attributed
to both because I guess I didn't know about Tommy,
but I certainly know about rob Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:11:44):
The story gets kind of muddied. And even though they
have the same last name, they're not related. But they're
real phenomenal musicians, And we'd love to hear your favorite
folk tales about the devil. Please send him our way.
We are sponges for this. It's always a good read.
If here's the twist or the weird thing I wanted
to ask you guys about. As we approach the end

(01:12:06):
of tonight's episode, returning to the concept of how certain
denominations of Christianity feel, it is impossible to sell one's
soul or it is possible, is it logically not also
kind of selling your soul when you accept Christianity, when

(01:12:29):
you sign up for that version of guy, you're just
selling it to the good guys.

Speaker 5 (01:12:32):
No, that's cool, man, that's the one that that's the
one we accept. That one's fine. Yes, of course it
is right. They even described it that way. And the
rhetoric or if youth group kind of talk giving your
soul to Jesus, giving your soul.

Speaker 6 (01:12:44):
To God, you know, give yourself.

Speaker 5 (01:12:48):
But I think that's interesting because the implication is if
God truly was the creator and created you, then doesn't
he already own your soul?

Speaker 6 (01:12:54):
Do you really have to give it willingly?

Speaker 5 (01:12:56):
The whole idea of giving it willingly always strikes me
as a little interesting, convenient in terms of that look,
that aspect of control.

Speaker 6 (01:13:03):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 4 (01:13:04):
Yeah, It's just something I've been I've been pondering, just
on an academic philosophical level.

Speaker 3 (01:13:10):
I'd love to hear.

Speaker 6 (01:13:11):
I love to hear everybody's thoughts on this.

Speaker 4 (01:13:13):
I mean, I don't know, do you guys believe it's
possible for someone to actually sell their soul? In bonus question,
if you could name one person right now that might
have pulled it off, who would that person be?

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
I'd love to hear from you.

Speaker 5 (01:13:27):
Folks don't understand the logistics of it. How does one
transfer a soul? Do you get to does it stay
inside of you?

Speaker 3 (01:13:33):
Do you get like a stamp?

Speaker 6 (01:13:34):
Is it going a jar?

Speaker 4 (01:13:35):
Is it like bitcoin? Do you have like a Ledger
and a little secret number or code?

Speaker 5 (01:13:40):
But it also been I mean, we didn't really talk
much about this, but the soul, as it's described in
a lot of these religions is the life force.

Speaker 6 (01:13:47):
Y is the thing that makes you alive.

Speaker 5 (01:13:50):
And if I'm not mistaken, there was another Simpsons thing
where Bart sells his soul and he all of a
sudden like he doesn't he can't like do normal people
things are he so of like he's not a ghost,
but he sort of got ghost like qualities. It sort
of speaks to that idea of you are no longer
human when you don't have your soul or present on

(01:14:10):
the earth exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:14:12):
Perhaps you've become some sort of demi god, and then
you could begin in blazing your name and gold letters
across buildings and properties things throughout the earth.

Speaker 6 (01:14:24):
Ball rams.

Speaker 8 (01:14:25):
I'm a humanist, Kevin, maybe the last humanist schlocky delightful film.

Speaker 3 (01:14:36):
Who are you carrying?

Speaker 6 (01:14:36):
All? No?

Speaker 4 (01:14:37):
No, not you guys have to put up with that
too much for me, Folks. We can't wait to hear
your thoughts. Happy Halloween. This will be coming. This will
be coming to you after the actual holiday, but hey,
it's always Halloween in America, So tell us your thoughts.
You can find us online. You can call us on
the phone. You can reach us on email.

Speaker 6 (01:14:56):
That's a right.

Speaker 5 (01:14:57):
Find us in the handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist
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Speaker 6 (01:15:06):
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Speaker 4 (01:15:20):
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