January 31, 2025 • 72 mins
As the only land bridge between South and Central America, the notorious Darién Gap is a lawless, unforgiving region through which thousands of people, every year, traverse in search of survival and escape. In the second chapter of this special two-part series, Ben and Matt explore the harrowing reality of making this passage. Beset with bandits, crime, corruption, cartels and danger, innocent people are hoping against hope to survive the horrors of the jungle, and arrive at a better place in the north.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be
returning shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you
to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding
(00:52):
something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of
time on that. It was sort of chapter one of
the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents
leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its
role as a massive land route for migration and crime.
(01:13):
And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair.
This is particularly close to a lot of us and
our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves
regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people
(01:34):
and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is
not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US
as we record.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend,
there was a there was a large thing that occurred
within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't
know what you would call it, an argument between the
United States and the country of Colombia about two I
(02:03):
guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings
that were deported by the United States back to Colombia
and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President
of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and
then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs.
And then it appears today as we record on Monday,
(02:25):
January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you
want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has
accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just
mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap.
If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but
it is between Central America and South America. It's a
(02:48):
piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And
that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one
of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app
and it's just I think it's weird for us because
where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular
place a sector. I guess if they call it a
(03:10):
what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way,
if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just
pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just
pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures
of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone
wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either,
(03:34):
not once.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Not once. And I lived right in the heart of
that area. And there are major as we speak right now,
and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice
operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart
because one or two people within a household is just
being picked up by agents and shipped off.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the
larger context. If you want to get some of them
more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt,
you can folks check out the LA Times They just
came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over,
It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is
(04:18):
on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for
the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can
be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to
navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this
story is that these are human beings that at some
point took a journey to get to the United States,
right And whether or not they came through the dairy
end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but
we do know that desire to get to the US
somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this
(04:56):
area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And there may be an episode in future evening related
to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals
in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the
concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing.
(05:23):
So what about this man? What if we pause for
a word from our sponsors, and then we come back
with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
We'll keep it.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it.
So we'll come back and give you a brief recap
of the of the Darien Gap as you had set
up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the
conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So,
(05:58):
as you were saying, if you if you pull up
your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether
that be you know something online, you can zoom into
the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and
you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth.
Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little
(06:20):
It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking,
continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and
all points north. This is the only land route to
do that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if
you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it
is literally a gap. It is the only break in
the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans
the like the entire left side of North and South America,
which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons,
(07:03):
the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch
of road through this gap, which is a sixty something
mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some
will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something
that looks small. I love how you pointed this out
(07:24):
in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a
regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot,
it is huge.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben,
or that length that would be if you connected where
the last road is in Panama to the last road
in Columbia, or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern
road system here comes as part of a much larger
historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have
tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains,
(08:08):
but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife,
the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases,
nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who
are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial.
They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with
(08:31):
the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from
the outside who has attempted a large scale community has
either died or turned back.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos,
you will see that there are villages, there are small
pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that
is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the
more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern
peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say,
(09:03):
which includes humans across that border.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of
the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean,
fulfilling the same function that you might see for a
rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States,
right place to get off the road, to stop traveling,
(09:26):
to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases,
and then you know places safer places to sleep, all
of which come at a cost. And that's that's the
important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure
of size in this part of the world, and it
(09:46):
reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities,
right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers.
It eats all the work of man, you know. And
I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican
Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples,
(10:11):
you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively
short span of time, the jungle would take them. So
that's that's an active thing you're working against.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do
to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that
are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms
and it is nuts not because not only does the
jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean
like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings.
So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns,
right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are
several reasons no one's built a modern road through this
(11:06):
area and probably won't for the near future, and all
those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist,
with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people
are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years.
There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands
(11:30):
of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the
gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they
can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate
any of their assets from their home country just so
they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately
(11:51):
to the United States. And we didn't talk about it
too much. We'll get into this in a second, but
there are This is a business. It is a business
that is run by cartels with the aid and approval
of state security forces in some cases. And because it
(12:12):
is a business, they are doing the at least for me,
the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which
is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might
get a horse, right, or we could even take you
well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way,
or you know, you could hop on a boat and
(12:33):
try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I
get it, I get it. I know it's a little
Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go
to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell
one that is the best one. Why do you have
to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry?
Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it.
(12:57):
That's what it is. And look, the people who are
doing this, they're not wealthy.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like
I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela.
So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm
going to just go on a fun little trip. People
are doing this because they feel they must. They feel
that it is a matter of survival. That's an important
(13:26):
thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you
hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience
or political beliefs.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap,
at least as it is known in the Darien I
think it's the national forest that's right there or national park,
excuse me. And that is a border like that is
a border area. So when you're thinking about those state
(13:58):
security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say,
very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across
and then keep others on the you know, from from
traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine
the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way.
(14:20):
I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we
discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known
in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia.
They got to the point where they do touch the government.
They step on as you as you said, some things
(14:45):
they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of
security and heads of things like border control or of course,
you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies
can pop the tea on that one.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That's one of those things I never got as a kid,
when there would be jokes about a joke or an
aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in
imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I
never understood any of that that was in media, all
these movies that we watched as kids that adults would
like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed
it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff
that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man.
I even knew like friends' parents who were import export
legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far
(15:46):
as I could tell, you know, I think they were
probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on
art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah,
you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated
and I hope I'm not the only one who has
a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college,
(16:11):
I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they
sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real
business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I
none of these guys are carrying packages?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again,
there's a lot going on here. There are some matters
of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned
that the Darien gap plays a big role in why
Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of
(16:55):
left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode
for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin
with the logical question we ended on previously. With all
this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why
would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy,
(17:23):
all right. People have been trying to get in and
out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that
we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of
desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and
international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective
(17:43):
way to move their other products, and so they didn't
really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded.
I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to
diminish it. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because
there are not a bunch like there's not a military
base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side,
and there's no When you think about who controls those borders,
you do think about some form of official border protection
(18:18):
force that is militarized.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do
have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides,
going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the
last true what is sometimes called a black zone on
the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to
say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out
to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good.
(18:58):
And I say that too. It is a liminal space
where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and
the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going
to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions
on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing
(19:18):
to rule of law in his lawless place is a
network of drug cartels who are some of the world's
most successful for profit entities up there with banks.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I love your note in the event whatever I said it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to
come after us. You know, if it was Josh and
Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax
would would care.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And
I know we've both been reading a lot of these
amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who
have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part.
And you know one article that stood out, I think
(20:18):
to all of us is from the Atlantic in August
of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one
by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel
or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out
if you have the time, because they have photographs, they
(20:41):
have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the
cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap,
and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as
well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson
writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following,
(21:05):
just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here,
everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved
by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings.
They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps
with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube,
and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through.
(21:29):
The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD
equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat
up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars.
That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you
would find out about it. I don't know. And again,
everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that
someone might take if they're trying to get across a
border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah,
(22:08):
you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah,
you're just getting across a border. What what it makes
me think about just with the cost alone, if you're
if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the
crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too.
(22:29):
By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious
jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once
you get into Panama, what do you where do you
go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if
you are going as far north as the United States,
or if you are just trying to get to you know,
just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something.
(22:52):
There's a lot more steps and a lot more money
that you have to pay out.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending
on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not
include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor
medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know
what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe
helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named
(23:21):
is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist,
in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person,
this happens more than once She enter team are well
aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends
some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations,
(23:43):
and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people,
sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the
most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people
simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed
up in the green.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, that's unsettling.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that
if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower
the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at
least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling
from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage
people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you,
(24:30):
then you are far less likely to be attacked by
a gang of like five bandits.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you
did want to have personal protection as you went through there.
I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even
you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because
it feels like you would need at least, you know,
a machete or something as you're going through the jungle.
(24:58):
I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because
they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're
just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants
as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest.
And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations,
that's great. If you haven't, don't.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Why do sherpas carry ars?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind
of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's
a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with
firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another
liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this
(25:55):
thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right,
add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know,
be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's
not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees
with the policy missteps that we touched on a little
(26:18):
bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect,
but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept
that by making migration harder, you will limit the number
of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art.
It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know,
(26:39):
if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people
won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the
world of crime. They'll find a way to you know,
smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder,
that's where it gets confused.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
If you make if you make these migration policies higher,
if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting
the number of people who are still going to attempt
a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked.
But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this
Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing,
which is another form you know, I off getting across
a longer distance to get into the US via that
import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse,
(27:36):
to be honest.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror,
are they not.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're
on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out
right you have to have the food that you brought
with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's
ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one
of the things you most regret not bringing more of
(28:08):
is going to be water and it's easy to die there.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in
the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have
to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to
figure out what you're going to tell your six year
old right when they see some things that children should
not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very
(28:37):
it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot
of people doing this and they don't really have a
say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We
found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty
three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times
between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty
(28:57):
twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground,
and they found that the number of migrants in Latin
America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million
to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest
global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during
(29:21):
that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've
said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers,
and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right
now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that
you and I talked about that previously in Part one,
(29:43):
because that's I think, by far and away the largest
proportion of migrants.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was
studied in those numbers that came from the what was
it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked
at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the
Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah,
over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela
(30:11):
through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get
in through Panama.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents.
And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah,
and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there
they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want
(30:37):
to take an abortion, but the medical care for that
is not available.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I
heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over,
but it's not the same at all because they were
basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you
can get out right now and leave everything and just
get out. In this case, you know, a lot of
(31:05):
the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state
right of the country, where there are the things that
human beings need are no longer in very good supply,
if at all, and you just have to leave because
there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military
and a lot of the groups that would be considered
(31:26):
counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying
to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I
gotta get out of here.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may
be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may
demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones.
And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course,
who want to create their own regimes. Some of those
(31:57):
candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you
if you are a citizen of the country and just
trying to live and have a family and grow a
business or anything like that. It's just it's not about
you in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so
already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela.
Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you
need to be to traverse the gap. You run into
the business, the big business of the golf clan. They
hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything,
(32:40):
which roots can be used by migrants as well as
by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide
who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So
everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi
Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to
(33:02):
pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels.
Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me
think about state local taxes, sales taxes.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that.
I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is
it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff
outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes,
(33:41):
they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans,
they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a
court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will
get you off the case.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh,
who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the
character you'd have to put as the judge. You have
to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not
an eyepatch.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah yeah, maybe.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious
tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Runs of fast food Chicken.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke.
Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no
way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how
much money does the clan make from just this? This
is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it
depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you
one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will
(35:11):
tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that
the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five
dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two
to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly,
from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust
(35:33):
the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way.
I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get
in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we
have to go.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes
a little bit off the top two and that's probably
not calculated in.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right
where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes
down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah,
it is the name of the platform. It probably is
no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something
(36:17):
at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that.
That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or
more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly,
veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to
the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million
(36:42):
US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all
profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money
than that.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah,
this is just the migrant money. This is not counting
the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know,
this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and
that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt,
the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause
(37:21):
for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take
a hypothetical journey through the gap together.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven
million before taxes.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap
together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew
and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals,
(37:53):
of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more
than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there?
First things. First, to get through it, you have to
get to it.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again,
if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to
put all of your luggage into a car, then you
would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good
way to get there too. It is super dangerous to
take that boat ride along the coast on either side
of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again,
(38:31):
that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to
get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get
shot at or pirated exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people
who just have to get on a boat every day
as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells
fish at the at the local coastal market, they have
probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups,
right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get.
(39:02):
It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt,
is these first steps are in their own ways as
dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you
could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by
corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have
bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather
(39:26):
is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
And then you finally get there and you get corraled
kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just
exactly not the one you want to be at, but
the one you have to be at, or at least
you feel that you need to be there. You know.
That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations.
So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's
going to be your guide? Here is here are all
(39:51):
the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet,
you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make
sure you've got enough water for your.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point.
We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas.
And this is we're pulling a little bit of this
from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the
announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World.
(40:21):
It is like the crowd organization is very much like
that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know
this following group file in here, and the groups vary
in size, but they do want larger groups because it
lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at
least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet
(40:45):
some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's
a mix of things.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on
your journey there, it is, at least from the reports
we've seen of human beings who have gone and now
come back to report on it. There are basically a
series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees.
(41:10):
You may have seen this kind of thing before at
like a national park or something where there are areas
and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other
times it is like color coded, so you can just
be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more
complex and probably a little more dangerous.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods,
you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in
this part of the United States, path through the wilderness
may be marked with just like a strip of plastic
or spray paint, you know, and if you see this
spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works
(41:50):
really well for keeping people on the right track. From
what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going,
keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now
quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back
on that blue green path. This is all explained to
you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're
(42:13):
explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various
guides on the Colombian side of the border to come
up to you and ask you if you want to
buy something, if you want them to carry something for you.
And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters
(42:35):
are with you or they're around. So in addition to
the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric
or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going
to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll
they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path
or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete.
(42:56):
They're they're clearing the path out because it will get
over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth
in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go
a week as I was trying to clear a couple
paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a
creek back there, and I gave it a week off
and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine
(43:26):
growth is so intense.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any
cutsoo in your backyard?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Not anymore?
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
You're not bamboo fan.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's it looks great, but it is evil if you
don't control where it goes.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're
immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot
of care.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our
own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own
brand of products.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Based in state craft, like terminology okay.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some
handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo
is going, and you.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
See you cut it off and you think you've cut
it off at its source, but no, that's not the
nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for
this journey that people are taking, there is going to
be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people.
It's for a lot of folks, it may be the
most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So
(45:02):
there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb
up onto a fence so they can address the crowd,
and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know,
let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on
the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a
reason we are doing this, and God is on our side,
(45:25):
and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then
you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's
very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad.
You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe.
But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay,
(45:49):
we can do this, right, We've already come so far.
In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came
from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is
just another leg of a much longer journey.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And
if we can get through this, we're good and it's
not going to be that bad. Is what you're being
told by the people who just took a bunch of
your money.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used
car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're
talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah,
you know, this may not be a brand new Ford
Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos.
But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart.
(46:38):
You know, you don't need to change the oil that much.
It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires
are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle.
It's fine, which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
And then also the time how long does it take?
As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing
of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are
often told this is a two day journey. That is
not the case, and they just mean two day journey
sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side
(47:20):
and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because
of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more
heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more
things like the you know, the resting areas if you
can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt,
(47:43):
I think it's safe for us to say that most
people are not getting through there in two days.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of
stuff that you feel that you need to carry when
you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen
that it's often the case where you know, somebody will
end a journey if they make it all the way
through with half the things that they brought along with them,
(48:11):
if not less. It gets down to essentials as it
gets more grueling, uh out there.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you
don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration.
You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do
we put it in our previous recording. The kind of
in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general,
the kind of thing that you could cure with a
(48:39):
trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster
if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics,
you know. And then people barter stuff when they run
out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people
just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt,
(49:00):
what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending
on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter
out there, it might be just three days, it could
be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that,
could be like ten days.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, yeah, depend on mobility, the weather, like you said,
just the luck. And that's why in the age ofbiquitous
social media, remember, folks, we were disturbed to learn that
this is widely advertised on TikTok and YouTube and so on,
because they need those videos to look successful, to look
(49:43):
aspirational and just like a hike. Yeah yeah. In the
beginning of the route, these different cartel operatives, the porters
essentially are going to be filming migrants, even talking to them.
You know, look at this family boldly strolling toward the future,
(50:05):
strolling being the key word, right, not struggling. And they
do that a lot during the first day because it's
a business and every piece of video that you can
get showing people that, showing people who appear not to
be having a terrible time, that brings more people to
you later. And these guys are not out to kill everybody, obviously,
(50:30):
they need it to be successful for this massive revenue
stream to continue. I think what we should instead say,
to be more accurate, is they have they have some
kind of internal acceptable rate of attrition. Right, it's okay
for we don't know what that is, but it's okay
(50:51):
for a certain amount of people to die, to be robbed,
to be assaulted, to disappear.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Well. Yeah, it's tough to go on Yelp and find
first hand reviews of you know, the group that's gonna
take you through the Darien Gap, Right, it's tough to
see a review from somebody who didn't make it. Yeah,
just saying exactly that doesn't exist. So if you can
(51:17):
make it look as though everything's easy and safe and
fun and okay, and the appearance is more. It's going
to bring you more revenue. And ultimately, this is a.
Speaker 3 (51:27):
Business and while profit driven, the porters themselves are not
super villains. You can read read reports where they're trying
to pass information on like please check on you know,
they're going back the other way right and you're passing
them and they're saying, hey, please check on this one person.
We had to leave them at a rest stop or something.
(51:50):
And I think before we get to the Panamanian side,
we got to talk about that rest stop. Party stops
along the route. There are there are camps you can access.
The porters have brought hot dog stands seriously, refrigerators, even
pool tables and Wi Fi and you can play with
all of it for a fee if you are lucky.
(52:12):
When we stop at this rest up, we may find
someone from Doctors Without Borders. This is not a thing
that can happen all the time, but you may find
those absolute heroes out there and they may be able
to assist you with the medical condition. We know that
this is also an opportunity for people to get their
(52:35):
family and their loved ones in other countries to wire
them additional funds, so you pay like two dollars for
Wi Fi access, You get your family member maybe in
the US, to wire you some more money, and you
get to check in and let them know that you
are alive. And then that electronic transfer also has a
fee about twenty percent, but it's still it's better than nothing.
(53:00):
And then when you get when you get closer to Panama,
you make a final payment to the Colombian side, to
the cartel. And when you make the payment, at least
in recent years, they give you a wristband just like
a like a music festival or a dragon con. That
(53:22):
is your proof that you paid. So now we assume
we're the worst for wear, but we're alive. We have
made it. Not everybody has, but we have made it,
and we approach the Panamanian side of the gap.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, and it's tough because once you get to the
Panamanian side, this is where at least Human Rights Watch
has reported a lot of nefarious things, maybe increasing let's say,
or the chances of you know, things like being robbed,
sexually abused. Yeah, it's it can't again, at least from
(53:59):
the report, it sounds pretty heinous. It is just really
tough to maybe square in your mind, because this is
also where you've got a lot of the indigenous peoples
that are living right along in this area. So I
think not even on purpose, especially by reporters, you know,
who are going out there saying this kind of thing.
(54:20):
I think it can be maybe put together in your
head subconsciously, and that is not what is happening. Yeah,
but I don't know how to say that correctly.
Speaker 3 (54:29):
No, I hear you, because there's a because people want
to form connections right, observe structures, and there is a
feedback loop at play that we have seen in some cases.
We have to remember, for decades and decades before this
was you know what people call the Migration super Highway,
(54:49):
it was a drug trafficking super highway. There was a
lot of crime and weapons trafficking as well, and the
indigenous Panomanian communities just living their lives were constantly beset
by drug cartels, by paramilitary groups, by people with firearms,
and very little in the way of oversight. So over time,
(55:12):
logically these communities took up arms themselves, they began practicing
self defense, and eventually, this is I think the pattern
connection we're talking about here, Matt. Eventually some of these groups,
a minority also got involved in crime and trafficking, and
then they became very you know, they were attacking outsiders.
(55:34):
They became in some ways very similar to the villains
that they were originally defending themselves against. They became the monsters.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, for sure. And you can read about that in
some writing that the International Crisis Group has done. Yeah.
They cite i think two hundred incidents of sexual violence
that were reported by various aid groups inside the Darien
Gap on the Panama side in the first half of
twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (56:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with those reports, like anything
on this road, is that we have to also logically
assume that the number of reported cases is much smaller
than the number of actual instants, because you know, there
(56:23):
we have to say it, a lot of times people
aren't going to report things because they're worried about being
the nail that sticks out, you know, being punished for reporting,
worst of all, being sent back right when you've already
got this far. So we know that even in the
state supported migration centers there are rampant accusations of abuse,
(56:47):
especially against vulnerable women and children. This is a heartbreaking
thing to note. By this point in the journey. It
is not infrequent that some travelers, particularly female travelers, may
be driven into sex work to continue paying for their
passage or to protect their children.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Yep, yeah, yeah, you know, we talked about the border
patrol as a thing that was we didn't say non existent,
let's say light, but it is. The border is protected
in some ways. I didn't know about this place, Ben,
There's apparently one place basically that migrants coming from the
(57:31):
Colombian side to the Panamanian side can get through or
maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (57:37):
ETRM Yeah, what is this? This is okay? So the
Panamanian government has strict laws against assisting migrants, no matter
where they're from, no matter where they're going, very strict
laws against it. And there's one spot where you can
assist these migrants coming from the Darien Gap. That is
(57:58):
the ETRM Ray Reception Center where you can go for
a minute. Right, that's a safe place you can go,
you can find assistance. You cannot stay there. You are
not a Panamanian citizen. This is not your new home.
You will meet travel agents for lack of a better word,
(58:21):
all around the CTRM and you pay something like forty
I think it's sixty dollars. Now these are all US
prices to ride across Panama on private buses. And the
private buses also have an agreement or a sanctioned so
they're far less likely to get attacked than your ordinary
tourist charter bus. Right, And this is a thing that
(58:44):
can happen in Central America country to country. If you've
been there, you know that once you get on that
private bus, you go across Panama. They take you close
to the border of Costa Rica. Then you get on
another set of private buses for a thirty dollars fee
and you cross Costa Rica to other humanitarian facilities that
(59:06):
are close to the border of Nicaragua, and then you
meet the Nicaragua officials. Guess what, They also want money,
so then you have to pay them. I think it's
approximately one hundred and fifty dollars to enter Nicaragua. And
then you continue your journey. And this doesn't this Dairian
(59:27):
gap stuff doesn't involve any of that. Once you're out
of Colombia, the golf clan considers your business concluded, and
now you're interacting with a series of other regimes, a
series of other traffickers and there are so many other
dangers posed by trying to move through Mexico before you
ultimately reach the US border, and a lot of people
(59:50):
get stuck on the way. They can't go to the US,
but they can't go back. This happens to a town
of Venezuelan nationals. I was not aware of this, but
people can be straight I did in Guatemala or other
countries because they can't legally re enter Panama even if
they want to go back home.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yeah, because that would be the only way. Wow, that's
that's terrible.
Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
It's yeah, it's not an ideal case. And I do think,
you know, we there's so much more to explore about this,
but we were talking off air, you and I ABOUTE
one note that we need to hit terrorism concerns. So
this pops up pretty often in recent years where someone
(01:00:39):
will claim, usually a politician will claim the US border
is porous and it's a national security threat because terrorists
are pouring into the country. And sometimes when you look
at policy papers, you'll see security analysts saying, you know,
what about the Darien gap. Right, It's much easier to
(01:01:02):
visit a country in South America than it is to
visit the US if you're a no good nick you know,
if you're coming from a different country that maybe is
not so friendly with the US, where you would get
high scrutiny, you know, like if you're and we're not
trying to pick on anybody. This happens all the time.
(01:01:24):
But let's say you're an Iranian national and you ultimately
want to get to the US, and you know that
it's going to be a real process right for you
to land in LaGuardia, So why don't you land in
Ecuador and then just travel up the gap. That's what
(01:01:45):
people are concerned about because they think people are doing
it for They think that people are utilizing this passage
for terrorist activities. And it's a shame that's politicized so hard.
But I think we should talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah, We've got an example via the Justice Department, a
former Al Qaeda fighter named Shahab Ahmed Shahab Shahab and
this is in This is from twenty twenty two, So
just a couple of years ago, this person was arrested
by the FBI and charged with trying to carry out
(01:02:23):
some form of terror based assassination against George W. Bush.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Yes, yeah, and he really thought he was doing this
is not someone scoring political points in an election. This
guy was living in Indiana and Ohio who was residing
in the US, and he wanted to He wanted to
bring terrorist forces through the Darien Gap to as you said,
Matt assassinate former President George W. Bush. This was there
(01:02:55):
was a lot of money on the line. You can
read the can read the full story in detail till
there's a lot to it. But essentially he got connected
with undercover FBI and he said, look, I've already smuggled
into Hasbela operatives over the gap and then and now
(01:03:17):
I think we can replicate that process. So we reached
out to some of his former colleagues in Iraq. They
had a unit that was once called Thunder in Arabic
and they they said, okay, maybe we can pay for
individuals give him forty thousand each to travel to Brazil
(01:03:42):
on fake visas, then go up through the gap and
then you know, enact our plan to kill George W.
Bush for revenge against what his administration did to our
country to Iraq and he got caught. He has been
cooperating with US forces. It seems that other criminal orgs
(01:04:05):
are aware of the problems posed by the Darien gap,
and the increase in overall migration of innocent people makes
it much easier for the wolves to blend in with
the sheep. You know, like the point you made, there's
no passport control. Nobody's even fully out a survey.
Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, the most important part of any transaction is the
Google survey that occurs afterwards.
Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
So many surveys, do you ever do them?
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I think I've done a couple to help out a
business that I really appreciated, like I don't know, helping
me out or they're really good or a deal, but
it's only happened, gosh, three times in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Maybe, yeah, I'll do I'll do surveys if I've had
to go on the phone with someone for something complicated,
you know what I mean, because we've we've spent time
together and like, no, Jacob, you have a great week.
Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, well yeah, and you got to shout out that
in that particular human being because maybe that will actually
help them on their performance review.
Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
We hope. So, yeah, because it's it's tough to be
on the phone all day for your job, and anyway,
the larger context there's this feedback loop. A government is unstable,
Like let's take Katie. A government is unstable, it prompts
residents to move. As they move, as they depart legally
or not, the labor force gets depleted. That makes it
(01:05:31):
much harder for the economy to recover because now if
we have jobs, we don't have people to fill the jobs,
which means the economy grows even worse, which means even
more people.
Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Leave, and now you need foreign aid from the United
States or China.
Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
Ding ding ding hmm. Yeah. It's it's a proven system.
Try not to make a judgment on it other than
saying that it has been proven. Well, okay, you know
what we're going long, maybe we.
Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Maybe John Perkins, is that the guy, the economic hit man?
Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Confessions of
an Economic hit Man. He got really into shamanism. Oh cool.
So a full ninety seven percent of migrants who are
willing to be interviewed by Human Rights Watch by other sources,
they all said that despite all of their travels and
(01:06:36):
whatever their country of origin may be, traversing the Darien
Gap was by far the most dangerous part of their passage.
They can't report crimes to the Panamanian North Columbian authorities.
And for now, the upward trend and migration, or the
overall trend in migration, is on an upward trajectory. The
numbers might fall some years rise from others, but the
(01:06:58):
overall trend is an or curve, and governments keep making
politically self serving statements. Innocent people are going to continue
to die out there in the jungle hoping for a
fair shot at the American treat But how do we
fix it? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
We decide that every human consciousness is the same, and
we don't allow billionaires anymore or not. I don't know.
I don't know how you fix it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
Yeah, no, I do think I will say it. Uh,
I do agree with you. I don't think we should
have billionaires.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I don't know whatever I feel like.
Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
You get how about this? You get have we talked
about this? You get a billion dollars, You reach a
billion dollars by hook or by crook, whatever, and then
you get like that, like that little gold play button
they used to give us on YouTube or platinum. You
get something like that, and instead of a play button,
(01:08:09):
it has a C for capitalism, Like you have won.
Here is your capitalism award, right, and and then you
get to start over.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Yeah, and you can use that as capital of some
sort just by having the button.
Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yeah, you get like discounts Dave and Busters. Yeah you
get you know, you get better, better seats on planes.
But yeah, now you have to fly commercial.
Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
And it's a status thing. So you hit that status.
Now you can get the really cool stuff that you
wanted as a billionaire. But the billions actually get to
go out to help, you know, make humanity and the
earth better.
Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
And you get to keep a couple of million.
Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Well for sure, and you can use it however you want.
Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Do whatever. And I think we've kind of pretty we've
solved it. We've solved it because that would help emphasize
the fact that a lot of people seem to forget here.
These are not souli statistics. These are people they want
and deserve all the same dignity we hope all people
can enjoy. But what's happening is that elephants are making
(01:09:18):
war for their own reasons. When elephants make war, it's
the grass that suffers.
Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
And with that we want to hear from you folks,
thank you for taking this journey with us. We hope
anyone who has traversed the gap or gone on a
similar journey, we hope that you survived. We hope you
and your loved ones are safe. If you have personal
experience with this, please please please reach out to us
(01:09:47):
in so much as you are comfortable. Let us know
what's going on. You can find us online. You can
find us for email, telephonic device. We're conspiracy stuff show
on Instagram, conspiracy stuff on Twitter and YouTube. And if
you don't sip the social needs, stay tuned for our
episode about social media. Oh you give us a phone.
Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
Call, Yeah, you can't call us, As Ben said, tell
us about your stories. Tell us if you know someone
who's being affected by the ice stuff and the immigration
stuff that's happening in the United States right now or
in the country where you live. Just what is that,
What is that feeling like to you? What do you
see in the future as a lot of countries around
(01:10:31):
the world seem to be set on a more isolationist path.
Just tell us your thoughts. Our number is one eight
three three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself
a cool nickname and let us know. In the message
if we can use your name and message on the air.
If you've got more to say then can fit in
a three minute voicemail. Why not instead send us a
(01:10:53):
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid sometimes the
void writes back for this in particular, folks, please be
safe out there. If you have any personal experience, share
it with us and most importantly, more importantly, your fellow listeners.
(01:11:15):
It would also be immensely helpful. Again, only if you
are comfortable in sharing things that more people contemplating these
journeys need to be aware of. From your experience, What
do you wish you had known before you cross the gap?
Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradi
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favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
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learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.
Our colleague Noel is on an adventure, but will be
returning shortly.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Andrew the try Force Howard. Most importantly, you
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. Previously, on Stuff they Don't want you
to know, we explored the historical and geopolitical context surrounding
(00:52):
something called the Darien Gap. We spent a lot of
time on that. It was sort of chapter one of
the two because we needed to lay out deep precedents
leading to the GAP's current reputation as well as its
role as a massive land route for migration and crime.
(01:13):
And Matt, I know we were talking the law fair.
This is particularly close to a lot of us and
our social groups here in Atlanta because of recent moves
regarding migration or regarding deportation attempts and apprehending undocumented people
(01:34):
and families and yet to be clear, folks, this is
not just an Atlanta thing. It's happening around the US
as we record.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Oh yes, just this past week and particularly this weekend,
there was a there was a large thing that occurred
within the news. You probably saw. It was, I don't
know what you would call it, an argument between the
United States and the country of Colombia about two I
(02:03):
guess they're the huge military planes filled with human beings
that were deported by the United States back to Colombia
and Colombia refused to take them. At first, the President
of Colombia, Gustavo Petro, made a statement about that, and
then there was a threat from the American side about tariffs.
And then it appears today as we record on Monday,
(02:25):
January twenty seventh, that that tariff war or whatever you
want to call it has not occurred and Colombia has
accepted these deported human beings. I guess we should just
mention just to give the geography here, the Darien Gap.
If you haven't listened to that first episode, do but
it is between Central America and South America. It's a
(02:48):
piece of land that connects Columbia to Panama, right, And
that's why We're bringing this up because Colombia is one
of the primary countries involved here in the Darien app
and it's just I think it's weird for us because
where we live in Atlanta, we talk about this particular
place a sector. I guess if they call it a
(03:10):
what do they call the Buford Highway Corridor, that's.
Speaker 3 (03:13):
What they ca Yeah, a magical corridor. By the way,
if you are ever fortunate enough to be there, just
pick a random restaurant. Don't go for a chain, just
pick a random restaurant, and then email us some pictures
of the amazing experience you'll have. I have never gone
wrong on Buford Highway, man, I don't think you have either,
(03:34):
not once.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
Not once. And I lived right in the heart of
that area. And there are major as we speak right now,
and over this past weekend, there are major ic ice
operations occurring there where just families are getting torn apart
because one or two people within a household is just
being picked up by agents and shipped off.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, and again this is a crucial part of the
larger context. If you want to get some of them
more up to the minute updates like you're describing there, Matt,
you can folks check out the LA Times They just
came out with us. It's like you said, it's all over,
It's all over the news. The tariff trade war is
(04:18):
on hold in sort of a quid pro quo for
the resumption of those deportation fights. We know this can
be a sensitive subject. As always, our goal is to
navigate these things with accuracy and empathy.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Well, yeah, and the whole reason it's important to this
story is that these are human beings that at some
point took a journey to get to the United States,
right And whether or not they came through the dairy
end gap we don't know on an individual basis, but
we do know that desire to get to the US
somehow is what generally not always pushes people through this
(04:56):
area we're talking about in the dairy end gap.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
And there may be an episode in future evening related
to migration overall, especially given the recent moves or signals
in the US domestic sphere of attempts to overturn the
concept of citizenship by birth, which is potentially an explosive thing.
(05:23):
So what about this man? What if we pause for
a word from our sponsors, and then we come back
with a brief recap or a regap regap, all right.
Speaker 4 (05:36):
We'll keep it.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
We'll keep it, Andrew. If there's a I eroned it.
So we'll come back and give you a brief recap
of the of the Darien Gap as you had set
up there, Matt, and then we'll dive further into the
conspiratorial side of this story. Here are the facts, all right. So,
(05:58):
as you were saying, if you if you pull up
your map of choice right, whether that be print, whether
that be you know something online, you can zoom into
the northwest of Columbia as you were describing, Matt, and
you'll see it's connected to Panama via This is myth.
Sounds like a silly word, but it's it's the little
(06:20):
It might as well be a piece of string continent speaking,
continentally speaking, and it connects South America to Panama and
all points north. This is the only land route to
do that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Oh yeah, everything else is going to be water if
you're if you're trying to get yourself or anything north.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Yeah. And it's called the Darien Gap nowadays because it
is literally a gap. It is the only break in
the in the Great Pan American Highway, which otherwise spans
the like the entire left side of North and South America,
which is a super impressive feat. But for multiple reasons,
(07:03):
the powers that be have simply not completed any stretch
of road through this gap, which is a sixty something
mile region. Some places we'll call it sixty miles, some
will say more like sixty six miles. But it's something
that looks small. I love how you pointed this out
(07:24):
in chapter one. It's something that looks small on a
regional or global map, but when you are walking on foot,
it is huge.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Yes, oh absolutely, that would be that stretch you're talking about, ben,
or that length that would be if you connected where
the last road is in Panama to the last road
in Columbia, or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this failure to create modern
road system here comes as part of a much larger
historic pattern. You know, for centuries and centuries, outsiders have
tried to establish footholds in this agglomeration of rainforests and mountains,
(08:08):
but because of the weather, you know, the punishing wildlife,
the snakes, the scorpions, the constant threat of very serious diseases,
nobody has cracked the case. The entire time. People who
are living in indigenous communities in the area since time immemorial.
They've watched these outsiders come and go. They live with
(08:31):
the land. They're not trying to change it. Everybody from
the outside who has attempted a large scale community has
either died or turned back.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Yeah, yep. But if you do look at aerial photos,
you will see that there are villages, there are small
pockets where humans live, and again, a lot of that
is indigenous peoples, but some of that is also the
more nefarious side of this area, which is more modern
peoples that have moneyed interest in getting goods, let's say,
(09:03):
which includes humans across that border.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah. Yeah, you'll see campsites. You'll see really sort of
the equivalent of rest stops, you know what I mean,
fulfilling the same function that you might see for a
rest stop on the interstate system here in the United States,
right place to get off the road, to stop traveling,
(09:26):
to eat if you're lucky, pursue medical care in some cases,
and then you know places safer places to sleep, all
of which come at a cost. And that's that's the
important part. It's incredibly difficult to build any permanent structure
of size in this part of the world, and it
(09:46):
reminds me of our previous conversations years ago on lost cities,
right when Lydar was really rolling out. The jungle hungers.
It eats all the work of man, you know. And
I mean, if we think about it, even in Mesoamerican
Central American empires of old, they would build gargantuan temples,
(10:11):
you know, these gigantic stone structures, and within a relatively
short span of time, the jungle would take them. So
that's that's an active thing you're working against.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Well, yeah, we see what sand and wind can do
to structures right now. Imagine if it's living plants that
are just enveloping everything and then the sediment that forms
and it is nuts not because not only does the
jungle eat the stuff, it buries it.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Yeah, yeah, it. When we say we do literally mean
like cover and digest hmm, all the works of human beings.
So there there are also of course intense environmental concerns,
right because this has such dense biodiversity. Anyway, those are
several reasons no one's built a modern road through this
(11:06):
area and probably won't for the near future, and all
those problems continue in the modern day, but with a twist,
with a horrible twist, because as we record, more people
are visiting the Darien Gap than ever like in recent years.
There is an alarming rise of people, thousands upon thousands
(11:30):
of people, men, women, and children attempting to traverse the
gap on foot most often, and they're taking whatever they
can carry, everything they own. They often have to liquidate
any of their assets from their home country just so
they have cash or funding to make this journey ultimately
(11:51):
to the United States. And we didn't talk about it
too much. We'll get into this in a second, but
there are This is a business. It is a business
that is run by cartels with the aid and approval
of state security forces in some cases. And because it
(12:12):
is a business, they are doing the at least for me,
the intensely aggravating thing that so many businesses do, which
is tiered pricing. Right, you have more money, you might
get a horse, right, or we could even take you
well on a motorcycle, on a motorbike part of the way,
or you know, you could hop on a boat and
(12:33):
try that. I don't know. I resent tiered pricing. I
get it, I get it. I know it's a little
Larry David. But you know, it's like when you go
to buy a computer, just why can't you just sell
one that is the best one. Why do you have
to sell these other ones that are less good? Sorry?
Unrelated related, Yeah, capital, yeah, yeah, no, you nailed it.
(12:57):
That's what it is. And look, the people who are
doing this, they're not wealthy.
Speaker 4 (13:02):
You know.
Speaker 3 (13:03):
Nobody is waking up and saying, well, I feel like
I've achieved total success in Caracas. I have beaten Venezuela.
So now I'm going to take my millions and I'm
going to just go on a fun little trip. People
are doing this because they feel they must. They feel
that it is a matter of survival. That's an important
(13:26):
thing to always keep in front of mind whenever you
hear conversations about migration or immigration, regardless of personal experience
or political beliefs.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
Yeah. Absolutely, let's not forget the edge of the Darien Gap,
at least as it is known in the Darien I
think it's the national forest that's right there or national park,
excuse me. And that is a border like that is
a border area. So when you're thinking about those state
(13:58):
security forces that you're mentioning the ones that are let's say,
very likely paid and incentivized to allow certain people across
and then keep others on the you know, from from
traversing through the Darien Gap. It is strange to imagine
the state craft involved. They're mixed in that weird way.
(14:20):
I was going to say, stepped on by the cartels.
Speaker 3 (14:24):
Yeah, I think that's appropriate. Yeah, because the as we
discussed the the Gulf Clan as they're they're typically known
in shorthand in English, they are a huge cartel in Columbia.
They got to the point where they do touch the government.
They step on as you as you said, some things
(14:45):
they're known associates include, you know, kernels, include heads of
security and heads of things like border control or of course,
you know, anybody associated with import export laws and policies
can pop the tea on that one.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
That's one of those things I never got as a kid,
when there would be jokes about a joke or an
aside someone makes about being into like oh I'm in
imports and exports or something like that. Oh yeah, I
never understood any of that that was in media, all
these movies that we watched as kids that adults would
like mention it and all the adults around and be like, oh.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
I see, yeah, I don't know why. I always assumed
it was, you know, furniture find Yeah, rare spices, stuff
that we associate with other countries. I'm with you there, man.
I even knew like friends' parents who were import export
legitimate business. Well, I think in their defense, as far
(15:46):
as I could tell, you know, I think they were
probably just our dealers. Sure check out our episode on
art and also freeports. I don't know, man, but yeah,
you know what else it reminds me of totally unrelated
and I hope I'm not the only one who has
a knucklehead about this. For years and years, up until college,
(16:11):
I thought that package stores sold packages. I thought they
sold packaging, And I was like, what is the real
business here? Why are these places always so sketchy? I
none of these guys are carrying packages?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Yeah, why does dad need so many packages?
Speaker 3 (16:33):
Oh that's a joke for fellow dads. Yeah. So again,
there's a lot going on here. There are some matters
of not just historical context, but historical consequence. We learned
that the Darien gap plays a big role in why
Scotland is not independent today. Which was way out of
(16:55):
left field. Do check out our episode our previous episode
for more on that. In the meantime, maybe we begin
with the logical question we ended on previously. With all
this horrible stuff being true, all these dangerous things, why
would you choose Darien at all? Year's where it gets crazy,
(17:23):
all right. People have been trying to get in and
out for centuries very little success. The growing trends that
we're describing fellow conspiracy realists comes from a mix of
desperation and also proven prior success of terrorist groups and
international drug traffickers. They found that this is an effective
(17:43):
way to move their other products, and so they didn't
really do anything new, right, They just sort of expanded.
I don't know, is that accurate? I don't want to
diminish it. Oh yeah, I.
Speaker 2 (17:57):
Would agree with you. It's a strain place there because
there are not a bunch like there's not a military
base on the Colombian side or one on the Panama side,
and there's no When you think about who controls those borders,
you do think about some form of official border protection
(18:18):
force that is militarized.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Right, uniforms, a gate, a checkpoint, you.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Know, yes, that does not exist there, and you do
have almost a gradient that exists there from both sides,
going into almost darkness when it comes to security forces.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
Yeah, yeah, well put the gap is one of the
last true what is sometimes called a black zone on
the planet. It's a shorthand phrase for we love to
say it a liminal space Aaron Manky. Yeah, shout out
to our pal manking Man. The shows are just so good.
(18:58):
And I say that too. It is a liminal space
where the ordinary rule of law does not apply, and
the Columbian authorities and the Panamanian authorities are both going
to admit their problems, and they'll have very different opinions
on who is responsible for those problems. The closest thing
(19:18):
to rule of law in his lawless place is a
network of drug cartels who are some of the world's
most successful for profit entities up there with banks.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
I love your note in the event whatever I said it.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Yeah, I don't think we're big enough for them to
come after us. You know, if it was Josh and
Chuck saying that, then maybe maybe someone at Goldman's Ax
would would care.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, they know what they're doing, HSBC Markovia at all.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
This is but this is a huge revenue stream. And
I know we've both been reading a lot of these
amazing first hand accounts journalists and in go operatives who
have traversed the gap or visited it at least in part.
And you know one article that stood out, I think
(20:18):
to all of us is from the Atlantic in August
of last year by Caitlin Dickerson. There's another great one
by Marion Blasberg and Gerald Bermudez writing for Der Spiegel
or Spiegel. I should say, and do check these out
if you have the time, because they have photographs, they
(20:41):
have firsthand conversations with people who are working for the
cartels to facilitate the border or the crossing of the gap,
and then families themselves who are attempting to survive as
well as in Geo's And I've got to say, Dickerson
writes beautifully and has this note where she says the following,
(21:05):
just to give you a sense of the cottage industry here,
everyone who works in the Dairien Gap must be approved
by the cartel and hand over a portion of their earnings.
They built stairs into hillside, outfitted cliffs with ladders, camps
with Wi Fi. They advertise it all on TikTok and YouTube,
and anyone can book a journey online. There many pass through.
(21:29):
The most grueling is the cheapest three hundred bucks USD
equivalent to cross the jungle on foot. Taking a boat
up the coast can cost more than one thousand dollars.
That's social media part man. Ugh, that's rough.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
Well, that's weird. It's weird to think that's how you
would find out about it. I don't know. And again,
everything there written there sounds like a similar journey that
someone might take if they're trying to get across a
border in an unofficial means or buy an unofficial means. Right, Yeah,
(22:08):
you're not going through any kind of immigration you know organization. Yeah,
you're just getting across a border. What what it makes
me think about just with the cost alone, if you're
if you're dishing out three hundred dollars to make the
crazy on foot journey that is perilous because of wildlife too.
(22:29):
By the way, remember this is jungle, this is serious
jungle area. You're going to do that. But then once
you get into Panama, what do you where do you
go from there? Because you know the journey itself, if
you are going as far north as the United States,
or if you are just trying to get to you know,
just across a couple of states to Costa Rica or something.
(22:52):
There's a lot more steps and a lot more money
that you have to pay out.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
Absolutely, even that bargain basement price, which does differ depending
on the sources, even that bargain basement price does not
include lodging. It does not include food, nor water, nor
medical care. There's nothing like travel insurance here, you know
what I mean. And it does not include someone maybe
helping you carry stuff. Right that, everything we just named
(23:21):
is an additional series of fees. And when this journalist,
in particular Dickerson, decides to visit the gap in person,
this happens more than once She enter team are well
aware of the immense danger in this pursuit. She spends
some time talking with colleagues who have done similar investigations,
(23:43):
and they're telling her stories of typhoid fever, bandits, robbing people,
sexual assault, death, and even perhaps in some ways the
most ominous and terrifying the fact that hundreds of people
simply disappear in the jungle as if they were swallowed
up in the green.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Yeah, that's unsettling.
Speaker 3 (24:08):
I know, right. That's because usually you would expect that
if someone is traveling in a group, and to lower
the likelihood of being attacked by bandits the cartel, at
least on the Colombian side, because most people are traveling
from the Colombian side to the Panamanian side, they encourage
people to group up. Right, if there are fifty of you,
(24:30):
then you are far less likely to be attacked by
a gang of like five bandits.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
Yeah, well, yeah, I also think about let's say you
did want to have personal protection as you went through there.
I wonder what getting a firearm or you know, even
you know, a hand held weapon of some sort, because
it feels like you would need at least, you know,
a machete or something as you're going through the jungle.
(24:58):
I guess that's why you pay your guy, just because
they're the people who have that stuff. And then you're
just a passenger essentially, like you're going on a flight.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Yeah, you functionally could describe these cartel operatives, the assistants
as spas, you know, like you would encounter summiting everest.
And if you're listening to this and you have summited everest. Congratulations,
that's great. If you haven't, don't.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
Why do sherpas carry ars?
Speaker 3 (25:35):
I guess it depends on the sherpa and what kind
of day they're having, all right, I mean, that's that's
a good question. We also know. The tricky thing with
firearms in that kind of situation is it becomes another
liability as easily as nasseat because now you've got this
(25:55):
thing that has to be constantly cleaned and maintained. Right,
add that somebody else might also want, so now, you know,
be careful how you sleep and win. It's yeah, it's
not an ideal situation by any means. And Dickerson agrees
with the policy missteps that we touched on a little
(26:18):
bit in chapter one. There is this idea that is incorrect,
but it is a very popular idea. It's the concept
that by making migration harder, you will limit the number
of people who attempt it. It's it's like the art.
It's it's a prohibition argument, is it not. You know,
(26:39):
if we make if we make cannabis illegal, then people
won't smoke it. Now, they'll just they'll go to the
world of crime. They'll find a way to you know,
smoke weed or whatever. And if you make legal migration harder,
that's where it gets confused.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
If you make if you make these migration policies higher,
if you up the barrier for entry, you're not limiting
the number of people who are still going to attempt
a passage. You are pushing them to shift toward other means.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Yeah, Oh, for sure, I don't want to get sidetracked.
But I do wonder what is more dangerous passing this
Darien gap or hopping in a shipping container kind of thing,
which is another form you know, I off getting across
a longer distance to get into the US via that
import export thing, right, I don't know which is worse,
(27:36):
to be honest.
Speaker 3 (27:38):
Yeah, it's They're two different flavors of equally terrifying horror,
are they not.
Speaker 2 (27:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
The claustrophobia of the shipping container. You're especially if you're
on a cargo vessel, knowing that you cannot get out
right you have to have the food that you brought
with you from home and more importantly, the water. Anybody's
ever hopped the trade off the books knows that one
of the things you most regret not bringing more of
(28:08):
is going to be water and it's easy to die there.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
It's also equally terrifying to be with your family in
the middle of the unforgiving jungle. Yeah, and then have
to figure out beat me here. Ed, you have to
figure out what you're going to tell your six year
old right when they see some things that children should
not see. Yeah, I don't know. I just it's very
(28:37):
it's harrowing, you know, to realize there are a lot
of people doing this and they don't really have a
say because it goes to cartel crimes and crisis. We
found a report by Human Rights Watch in twenty twenty
three that they compiled after visiting the gap four times
between April of twenty twenty two and June of twenty
(28:57):
twenty three. They interviewed three hundred something people on the ground,
and they found that the number of migrants in Latin
America and the Caribbean more than doubled from seven million
to fifteen million. This is more context, that's the largest
global growth for international migrants anywhere in the world during
(29:21):
that time, and the vast majority of these people, We've
said it before, they're not criminals, they're refugees, asylum seekers,
and the largest demographic of people traversing the gap right
now are people whose origin country was Venezuela, and that
you and I talked about that previously in Part one,
(29:43):
because that's I think, by far and away the largest
proportion of migrants.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
Right yeah, yeah, at least within that group that was
studied in those numbers that came from the what was
it the International or the International Organization for Migration looked
at those numbers as well and confirmed them, but the
Human Rights Watch those are the findings from them. Yeah,
over four hundred and forty thousand people went from Venezuela
(30:11):
through Colombia to get to the Gap to then get
in through Panama.
Speaker 3 (30:16):
And again a fifth of these are children and adolescents.
And some of these children are born on the journey. Yeah,
and sometimes they're born because maybe an individual discovers there
they're with child, they're carrying a child, and they want
(30:37):
to take an abortion, but the medical care for that
is not available.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. It reminds me of stories that I
heard from a lot of the Cuban immigrants that came over,
but it's not the same at all because they were
basically given the choice. Hey, you stick around, or you
can get out right now and leave everything and just
get out. In this case, you know, a lot of
(31:05):
the folks in Venezuela see the shortcomings of the state
right of the country, where there are the things that
human beings need are no longer in very good supply,
if at all, and you just have to leave because
there's also you know, tensions between the government slash military
and a lot of the groups that would be considered
(31:26):
counter to those folks, even farmers who are just trying
to live and they realize, oh crap, I go, I
gotta get out of here.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Yeah, rampant corruption. You know, the police forces that may
be meant to protect you, may demand increasing bribes, may
demand sexual favors, may threaten you and your loved ones.
And then you know the secessionist armed groups of course,
who want to create their own regimes. Some of those
(31:57):
candidly were probably paid by Uncle Sam at some point.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Yeah, or they at least they don't care about you
if you are a citizen of the country and just
trying to live and have a family and grow a
business or anything like that. It's just it's not about
you in their eyes.
Speaker 3 (32:16):
Yeah, you are a resource and the golf. Okay, so
already imagine making it from a terrible situation in Venezuela.
Now you have reached the area of Colombia where you
need to be to traverse the gap. You run into
the business, the big business of the golf clan. They
hold a monopoly here. They can decide pretty much everything,
(32:40):
which roots can be used by migrants as well as
by locals, because remember, indigenous communities live there. They decide
who can or cannot assist migrants on their journey. So
everybody who is there selling water, selling gatorades, selling Wi
Fi access work for the cartel, and they have to
(33:02):
pay the cartel a pretty significant percentage of their fees.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Yep, yep, you're you're talking about extortion at all the levels.
Sorry to make this connection, but it does make me
think about state local taxes, sales taxes.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
Yes, yeah, it's a taxation regime. I totally agree with that.
I didn't think about that. But it's structurally similar, is
it not. Yeah, And the the punishments for selling stuff
outside of school without you know, paying your local taxes,
(33:41):
they are harsh because cartels don't have personal improvement plans,
they don't have hr. They don't have, you know, a
court with a hot shot Clarence Darrow lawyer who will
get you off the case.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
Horrifying idea I just had, but Cartel Court and it's like, like, uh,
who would not watch that? Yeah? I mean just the
character you'd have to put as the judge. You have
to figure out the character. But it could be pretty compelling.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
The judges older. Yeah, the judge has glasses, but not
an eyepatch.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah yeah, maybe.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Bifocal glasses or what they call them readers. Yeah, mysterious
tattoo kind of peeking out from the neck of the robe.
Speaker 2 (34:38):
Runs of fast food Chicken.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
Juliets nailed it, Yeah, okay, yeah, no, it's Gus Freke.
Gus Freak is the is the judge of Cartel Court?
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I think so.
Speaker 3 (34:50):
Yeah, I think you nailed it there. Yeah, there's no
way to plea a case. The Colombian military, Now, how
much money does the clan make from just this? This
is only one of their many revenue streams. Well, it
depends upon whom you ask. Panama I will tell you
one thing, Oas will tell you another, The US will
(35:11):
tell you another. The Colombian military will tell you that
the Klan on average gets one hundred and twenty five
dollars per person crossing the gap from twenty twenty two
to twenty twenty three, but that varies widely. And again, honestly,
from everything we've encountered about this, you can't fully trust
(35:33):
the Colombian military on the numbers they're reporting right way.
I mean they seem pretty I don't want to get
in trouble with the Columbian military. Man, what if we
have to go.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
We're just saying that somebody along the line probably takes
a little bit off the top two and that's probably
not calculated in.
Speaker 3 (35:56):
Yes, yeah, at every levels, like that weird film right
where everybody lives in the tower and the food comes
down this platform. Oh I know that one. Yeah, yeah,
it is the name of the platform. It probably is
no would know, but the Yeah, everybody is taking something
(36:17):
at every single step. It's incredibly important to remember that.
That's why other estimates will say three hundred dollars or
more per person, and no, there are no discounts for elderly,
veterans or children. That means a documented income, according to
the not fully trustworthy Columbian Military, is fifty seven million
(36:42):
US dollars from January to October twenty twenty three, all
profit for the cartel. Almost certainly they're making more money
than that.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Well, because that is just the human trafficking part, right.
Speaker 3 (36:58):
Yeah, and this is human trafficking. That's an important note. Yeah,
this is just the migrant money. This is not counting
the cocaine. This is not counting weapons trade, you know,
this isn't counting any of the other stuff. Wow, and
that's all before we get to Banniball. Like you said, Matt,
the Panamedian side is even worse. What say we pause
(37:21):
for a word from our sponsors than maybe we take
a hypothetical journey through the gap together.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Oh for sure. By the way, is that fifty seven
million before taxes.
Speaker 3 (37:30):
Or we've returned? All right, we're journeying through the gap
together with you, fellow conspiracy realists. You are with Andrew
and Matt and myself. We're drawing on the experiences of locals,
(37:53):
of survivors, journalists, doctors, government agents and goos and more
than a few criminals. All right, how do we get there?
First things. First, to get through it, you have to
get to it.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, a lot of people go traversing on foot. You can. Again,
if you're coming from Venezuela and you can afford to
put all of your luggage into a car, then you
would probably do that. Again, a boat is a good
way to get there too. It is super dangerous to
take that boat ride along the coast on either side
of the gap going from Columbia to Panama. But again,
(38:31):
that's why you pay one thousand dollars per person to
get on a sanctioned boat that's not going to get
shot at or pirated exactly.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Yeah, gosh, it makes you feel terrible for the people
who just have to get on a boat every day
as part of their livelihood. You know, someone who sells
fish at the at the local coastal market, they have
probably have to pay multiple organizations or gangs or groups,
right even counting whatever fishing license they have to get.
(39:02):
It's tough out there. Yeah, And what you're pointing out there, Matt,
is these first steps are in their own ways as
dangerous as traversing the gap itself. At any point, you
could be stopped by bandits, you could be stopped by
corrupt local or state level authorities. You could just have
bad luck, you know, and car breaks down, the weather
(39:26):
is bad. There are no refunds in this kind of thing, yep.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
And then you finally get there and you get corraled
kind of like you're shown up at Disney World, just
exactly not the one you want to be at, but
the one you have to be at, or at least
you feel that you need to be there. You know.
That's the thing where it's almost like the tour guide situations.
So they tell you who you're gonna go with, who's
going to be your guide? Here is here are all
(39:51):
the supplies that you need. If you don't have them yet,
you're gonna need to pay a little extra to make
sure you've got enough water for your.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Team, exactly at an exaggerated cost. You're at this point.
We're at a place that would be called Hussienda las Tikas.
And this is we're pulling a little bit of this
from from the Spiegel article mentioned earlier. You're hearing the
announcements through a megaphone. This is like going to Disney World.
(40:21):
It is like the crowd organization is very much like
that or Universal Studios, where they say, okay, you know
this following group file in here, and the groups vary
in size, but they do want larger groups because it
lowers the chances of banditry during the journey, or at
least I should say unsanctioned banditry. Yeah, because I bet
(40:45):
some of those bandits are approved too. I bet there's
a mix of things.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, I'm sure. And then when you're actually going on
your journey there, it is, at least from the reports
we've seen of human beings who have gone and now
come back to report on it. There are basically a
series of guide colors, yes, that are taped around trees.
(41:10):
You may have seen this kind of thing before at
like a national park or something where there are areas
and paths that are you know, sometimes there's signage, other
times it is like color coded, so you can just
be aware. It's like that, but it's a little more
complex and probably a little more dangerous.
Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you've ever been out in the woods,
you've probably seen some stuff like this. Often here in
this part of the United States, path through the wilderness
may be marked with just like a strip of plastic
or spray paint, you know, and if you see this
spray paint, keep going. This is a system that works
(41:50):
really well for keeping people on the right track. From
what we understand, generally, blue or green means keep it going,
keep on truck. Red means wrong way, turn around now
quick fast, in a hurry, keep going to your back
on that blue green path. This is all explained to
you and your group over a megaphone. And while they're
(42:13):
explaining this, they're also allowing the porters or the various
guides on the Colombian side of the border to come
up to you and ask you if you want to
buy something, if you want them to carry something for you.
And until you get to the Panamanian side, those porters
(42:35):
are with you or they're around. So in addition to
the in addition to the fabric round the trees, fabric
or plastic telling you the right path, you're also going
to see these porters going back and forth, and they'll
they'll additionally do things like kind of clean the path
or try to you know, they're the ones with the machete.
(42:56):
They're they're clearing the path out because it will get
over grown so very quickly if it is not constantly maintained.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Yeah, you're talking like a week. Yeah, I remember overgrowth
in my backyard here in Georgia. I let it go
a week as I was trying to clear a couple
paths back to where the water is. Basically there's a
creek back there, and I gave it a week off
and I came back and the vines, specifically the vine
(43:26):
growth is so intense.
Speaker 3 (43:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:30):
And we're home to Kudsu here. Do you have any
cutsoo in your backyard?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Not anymore?
Speaker 3 (43:34):
Baby, a nice nice good. No mercy on that stuff, right.
Speaker 2 (43:39):
No bamboo either, Screw that stuff.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
You're not bamboo fan.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
It's it looks great, but it is evil if you
don't control where it goes.
Speaker 3 (43:49):
It is an expansionist force. Yes, I love that we're
immediately going to stay craft in military terms with lot
of care.
Speaker 2 (43:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:59):
Yeah. I feel like that's a very un brand thing.
Speaker 2 (44:03):
Tunnels underground. You can't you don't know where it.
Speaker 3 (44:07):
Is, right, yeah, yeah, you need we should start our
own lawn care maybe not company, but just our own
brand of products.
Speaker 2 (44:21):
Based in state craft, like terminology okay.
Speaker 4 (44:23):
Cool, yes, and added the actual mechanics like get some
handheld light ard to figure out where that sneaky baboo
is going, and you.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
See you cut it off and you think you've cut
it off at its source, but no, that's not the
nature of those root systems that you will proliferate.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
It goes deeper. Yeah. And also one important part for
this journey that people are taking, there is going to
be I mean, this is a very scary moment for people.
It's for a lot of folks, it may be the
most dangerous, like immediately danger thing they've ever done. So
(45:02):
there's going to be a prayer. A pastor will climb
up onto a fence so they can address the crowd,
and then they will pray together and they'll say, you know,
let's not think of the dangers. Let's not dwell on
the dangers. Let's think of the future ahead. There's a
reason we are doing this, and God is on our side,
(45:25):
and the sun rises and the journey begins, and then
you set off at first the journey. I mean, it's
very scary, but for some people it doesn't feel that bad.
You know, I'm not going to say it's a jaunty vibe.
But for some people, you know, I'm saying, hey, okay,
(45:49):
we can do this, right, We've already come so far.
In many cases that's true, you know, imagine you came
from China or Pakistan or Cameroon or Angola. This is
just another leg of a much longer journey.
Speaker 2 (46:03):
And this is like the hardest part theoretically, right, And
if we can get through this, we're good and it's
not going to be that bad. Is what you're being
told by the people who just took a bunch of
your money.
Speaker 3 (46:15):
Yeah, yeah, they are very much going with a used
car salesman. Vibe no offense to use car salesman. We're
talking about the trope, right, the idea of like, hey, yeah,
you know, this may not be a brand new Ford
Pinto and yeah, maybe you've heard some things about Ford Pintos.
But this little guy, you know, he's got he's got heart.
(46:38):
You know, you don't need to change the oil that much.
It doesn't leak that much, you know, and the tires
are different ages individually. But that's you know, that's an advantage.
Speaker 2 (46:52):
We've got gatorade. It's only six dollars US per bottle.
It's fine, which is crazy.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
And then also the time how long does it take?
As part of this downplaye of the risk and embellishing
of the rewards or the odds of success. Migrants are
often told this is a two day journey. That is
not the case, and they just mean two day journey
sort of through the gap up to the Panamanian side
(47:20):
and the Colombian The Colombian side of the border because
of the regime instituted by the cartel is far more
heavily regulated. That's that's where you're going to see more
things like the you know, the resting areas if you
can pay for them, the guides and stuff. But Matt,
(47:43):
I think it's safe for us to say that most
people are not getting through there in two days.
Speaker 2 (47:50):
No, no, and especially if you consider the amount of
stuff that you feel that you need to carry when
you're moving your entire life somewhere, right, And we've seen
that it's often the case where you know, somebody will
end a journey if they make it all the way
through with half the things that they brought along with them,
(48:11):
if not less. It gets down to essentials as it
gets more grueling, uh out there.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Yeah, and the weight weighs upon you, right, and you
don't have the same constant sources of nutrition or hydration.
You may be dealing with a medical issue. How do
we put it in our previous recording. The kind of
in wildlife in general, or in the wilderness in general,
the kind of thing that you could cure with a
(48:39):
trip to Dwayne Read or CVS can can spell disaster
if you don't have access to something as simple as antibiotics,
you know. And then people barter stuff when they run
out of money, and then sometimes to your point, people
just the shed the stuff because they have to keep going. Yeah, So, Matt,
(49:00):
what's the what's the more realistic non salesmany amount of days?
Speaker 2 (49:07):
Well, yeah, they'll sell you on too, and then depending
on the weather, depending on you know, whatever you encounter
out there, it might be just three days, it could
be a whole week, seven days, could be more than that,
could be like ten days.
Speaker 3 (49:21):
Yeah, yeah, depend on mobility, the weather, like you said,
just the luck. And that's why in the age ofbiquitous
social media, remember, folks, we were disturbed to learn that
this is widely advertised on TikTok and YouTube and so on,
because they need those videos to look successful, to look
(49:43):
aspirational and just like a hike. Yeah yeah. In the
beginning of the route, these different cartel operatives, the porters
essentially are going to be filming migrants, even talking to them.
You know, look at this family boldly strolling toward the future,
(50:05):
strolling being the key word, right, not struggling. And they
do that a lot during the first day because it's
a business and every piece of video that you can
get showing people that, showing people who appear not to
be having a terrible time, that brings more people to
you later. And these guys are not out to kill everybody, obviously,
(50:30):
they need it to be successful for this massive revenue
stream to continue. I think what we should instead say,
to be more accurate, is they have they have some
kind of internal acceptable rate of attrition. Right, it's okay
for we don't know what that is, but it's okay
(50:51):
for a certain amount of people to die, to be robbed,
to be assaulted, to disappear.
Speaker 2 (50:57):
Well. Yeah, it's tough to go on Yelp and find
first hand reviews of you know, the group that's gonna
take you through the Darien Gap, Right, it's tough to
see a review from somebody who didn't make it. Yeah,
just saying exactly that doesn't exist. So if you can
(51:17):
make it look as though everything's easy and safe and
fun and okay, and the appearance is more. It's going
to bring you more revenue. And ultimately, this is a.
Speaker 3 (51:27):
Business and while profit driven, the porters themselves are not
super villains. You can read read reports where they're trying
to pass information on like please check on you know,
they're going back the other way right and you're passing
them and they're saying, hey, please check on this one person.
We had to leave them at a rest stop or something.
(51:50):
And I think before we get to the Panamanian side,
we got to talk about that rest stop. Party stops
along the route. There are there are camps you can access.
The porters have brought hot dog stands seriously, refrigerators, even
pool tables and Wi Fi and you can play with
all of it for a fee if you are lucky.
(52:12):
When we stop at this rest up, we may find
someone from Doctors Without Borders. This is not a thing
that can happen all the time, but you may find
those absolute heroes out there and they may be able
to assist you with the medical condition. We know that
this is also an opportunity for people to get their
(52:35):
family and their loved ones in other countries to wire
them additional funds, so you pay like two dollars for
Wi Fi access, You get your family member maybe in
the US, to wire you some more money, and you
get to check in and let them know that you
are alive. And then that electronic transfer also has a
fee about twenty percent, but it's still it's better than nothing.
(53:00):
And then when you get when you get closer to Panama,
you make a final payment to the Colombian side, to
the cartel. And when you make the payment, at least
in recent years, they give you a wristband just like
a like a music festival or a dragon con. That
(53:22):
is your proof that you paid. So now we assume
we're the worst for wear, but we're alive. We have
made it. Not everybody has, but we have made it,
and we approach the Panamanian side of the gap.
Speaker 2 (53:36):
Yeah, and it's tough because once you get to the
Panamanian side, this is where at least Human Rights Watch
has reported a lot of nefarious things, maybe increasing let's say,
or the chances of you know, things like being robbed,
sexually abused. Yeah, it's it can't again, at least from
(53:59):
the report, it sounds pretty heinous. It is just really
tough to maybe square in your mind, because this is
also where you've got a lot of the indigenous peoples
that are living right along in this area. So I
think not even on purpose, especially by reporters, you know,
who are going out there saying this kind of thing.
(54:20):
I think it can be maybe put together in your
head subconsciously, and that is not what is happening. Yeah,
but I don't know how to say that correctly.
Speaker 3 (54:29):
No, I hear you, because there's a because people want
to form connections right, observe structures, and there is a
feedback loop at play that we have seen in some cases.
We have to remember, for decades and decades before this
was you know what people call the Migration super Highway,
(54:49):
it was a drug trafficking super highway. There was a
lot of crime and weapons trafficking as well, and the
indigenous Panomanian communities just living their lives were constantly beset
by drug cartels, by paramilitary groups, by people with firearms,
and very little in the way of oversight. So over time,
(55:12):
logically these communities took up arms themselves, they began practicing
self defense, and eventually, this is I think the pattern
connection we're talking about here, Matt. Eventually some of these groups,
a minority also got involved in crime and trafficking, and
then they became very you know, they were attacking outsiders.
(55:34):
They became in some ways very similar to the villains
that they were originally defending themselves against. They became the monsters.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, for sure. And you can read about that in
some writing that the International Crisis Group has done. Yeah.
They cite i think two hundred incidents of sexual violence
that were reported by various aid groups inside the Darien
Gap on the Panama side in the first half of
twenty twenty three.
Speaker 3 (56:03):
Yeah. Yeah. And the problem with those reports, like anything
on this road, is that we have to also logically
assume that the number of reported cases is much smaller
than the number of actual instants, because you know, there
(56:23):
we have to say it, a lot of times people
aren't going to report things because they're worried about being
the nail that sticks out, you know, being punished for reporting,
worst of all, being sent back right when you've already
got this far. So we know that even in the
state supported migration centers there are rampant accusations of abuse,
(56:47):
especially against vulnerable women and children. This is a heartbreaking
thing to note. By this point in the journey. It
is not infrequent that some travelers, particularly female travelers, may
be driven into sex work to continue paying for their
passage or to protect their children.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
Yep, yeah, yeah, you know, we talked about the border
patrol as a thing that was we didn't say non existent,
let's say light, but it is. The border is protected
in some ways. I didn't know about this place, Ben,
There's apparently one place basically that migrants coming from the
(57:31):
Colombian side to the Panamanian side can get through or
maybe I don't know.
Speaker 3 (57:37):
ETRM Yeah, what is this? This is okay? So the
Panamanian government has strict laws against assisting migrants, no matter
where they're from, no matter where they're going, very strict
laws against it. And there's one spot where you can
assist these migrants coming from the Darien Gap. That is
(57:58):
the ETRM Ray Reception Center where you can go for
a minute. Right, that's a safe place you can go,
you can find assistance. You cannot stay there. You are
not a Panamanian citizen. This is not your new home.
You will meet travel agents for lack of a better word,
(58:21):
all around the CTRM and you pay something like forty
I think it's sixty dollars. Now these are all US
prices to ride across Panama on private buses. And the
private buses also have an agreement or a sanctioned so
they're far less likely to get attacked than your ordinary
tourist charter bus. Right, And this is a thing that
(58:44):
can happen in Central America country to country. If you've
been there, you know that once you get on that
private bus, you go across Panama. They take you close
to the border of Costa Rica. Then you get on
another set of private buses for a thirty dollars fee
and you cross Costa Rica to other humanitarian facilities that
(59:06):
are close to the border of Nicaragua, and then you
meet the Nicaragua officials. Guess what, They also want money,
so then you have to pay them. I think it's
approximately one hundred and fifty dollars to enter Nicaragua. And
then you continue your journey. And this doesn't this Dairian
(59:27):
gap stuff doesn't involve any of that. Once you're out
of Colombia, the golf clan considers your business concluded, and
now you're interacting with a series of other regimes, a
series of other traffickers and there are so many other
dangers posed by trying to move through Mexico before you
ultimately reach the US border, and a lot of people
(59:50):
get stuck on the way. They can't go to the US,
but they can't go back. This happens to a town
of Venezuelan nationals. I was not aware of this, but
people can be straight I did in Guatemala or other
countries because they can't legally re enter Panama even if
they want to go back home.
Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Yeah, because that would be the only way. Wow, that's
that's terrible.
Speaker 3 (01:00:17):
It's yeah, it's not an ideal case. And I do think,
you know, we there's so much more to explore about this,
but we were talking off air, you and I ABOUTE
one note that we need to hit terrorism concerns. So
this pops up pretty often in recent years where someone
(01:00:39):
will claim, usually a politician will claim the US border
is porous and it's a national security threat because terrorists
are pouring into the country. And sometimes when you look
at policy papers, you'll see security analysts saying, you know,
what about the Darien gap. Right, It's much easier to
(01:01:02):
visit a country in South America than it is to
visit the US if you're a no good nick you know,
if you're coming from a different country that maybe is
not so friendly with the US, where you would get
high scrutiny, you know, like if you're and we're not
trying to pick on anybody. This happens all the time.
(01:01:24):
But let's say you're an Iranian national and you ultimately
want to get to the US, and you know that
it's going to be a real process right for you
to land in LaGuardia, So why don't you land in
Ecuador and then just travel up the gap. That's what
(01:01:45):
people are concerned about because they think people are doing
it for They think that people are utilizing this passage
for terrorist activities. And it's a shame that's politicized so hard.
But I think we should talk about it a little bit.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah, We've got an example via the Justice Department, a
former Al Qaeda fighter named Shahab Ahmed Shahab Shahab and
this is in This is from twenty twenty two, So
just a couple of years ago, this person was arrested
by the FBI and charged with trying to carry out
(01:02:23):
some form of terror based assassination against George W. Bush.
Speaker 3 (01:02:29):
Yes, yeah, and he really thought he was doing this
is not someone scoring political points in an election. This
guy was living in Indiana and Ohio who was residing
in the US, and he wanted to He wanted to
bring terrorist forces through the Darien Gap to as you said,
Matt assassinate former President George W. Bush. This was there
(01:02:55):
was a lot of money on the line. You can
read the can read the full story in detail till
there's a lot to it. But essentially he got connected
with undercover FBI and he said, look, I've already smuggled
into Hasbela operatives over the gap and then and now
(01:03:17):
I think we can replicate that process. So we reached
out to some of his former colleagues in Iraq. They
had a unit that was once called Thunder in Arabic
and they they said, okay, maybe we can pay for
individuals give him forty thousand each to travel to Brazil
(01:03:42):
on fake visas, then go up through the gap and
then you know, enact our plan to kill George W.
Bush for revenge against what his administration did to our
country to Iraq and he got caught. He has been
cooperating with US forces. It seems that other criminal orgs
(01:04:05):
are aware of the problems posed by the Darien gap,
and the increase in overall migration of innocent people makes
it much easier for the wolves to blend in with
the sheep. You know, like the point you made, there's
no passport control. Nobody's even fully out a survey.
Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Yeah, the most important part of any transaction is the
Google survey that occurs afterwards.
Speaker 3 (01:04:31):
So many surveys, do you ever do them?
Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
I think I've done a couple to help out a
business that I really appreciated, like I don't know, helping
me out or they're really good or a deal, but
it's only happened, gosh, three times in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (01:04:46):
Maybe, yeah, I'll do I'll do surveys if I've had
to go on the phone with someone for something complicated,
you know what I mean, because we've we've spent time
together and like, no, Jacob, you have a great week.
Speaker 2 (01:05:01):
Yeah, well yeah, and you got to shout out that
in that particular human being because maybe that will actually
help them on their performance review.
Speaker 3 (01:05:09):
We hope. So, yeah, because it's it's tough to be
on the phone all day for your job, and anyway,
the larger context there's this feedback loop. A government is unstable,
Like let's take Katie. A government is unstable, it prompts
residents to move. As they move, as they depart legally
or not, the labor force gets depleted. That makes it
(01:05:31):
much harder for the economy to recover because now if
we have jobs, we don't have people to fill the jobs,
which means the economy grows even worse, which means even
more people.
Speaker 2 (01:05:42):
Leave, and now you need foreign aid from the United
States or China.
Speaker 3 (01:05:48):
Ding ding ding hmm. Yeah. It's it's a proven system.
Try not to make a judgment on it other than
saying that it has been proven. Well, okay, you know
what we're going long, maybe we.
Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Maybe John Perkins, is that the guy, the economic hit man?
Speaker 3 (01:06:14):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Confessions of
an Economic hit Man. He got really into shamanism. Oh cool.
So a full ninety seven percent of migrants who are
willing to be interviewed by Human Rights Watch by other sources,
they all said that despite all of their travels and
(01:06:36):
whatever their country of origin may be, traversing the Darien
Gap was by far the most dangerous part of their passage.
They can't report crimes to the Panamanian North Columbian authorities.
And for now, the upward trend and migration, or the
overall trend in migration, is on an upward trajectory. The
numbers might fall some years rise from others, but the
(01:06:58):
overall trend is an or curve, and governments keep making
politically self serving statements. Innocent people are going to continue
to die out there in the jungle hoping for a
fair shot at the American treat But how do we
fix it? You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (01:07:20):
We decide that every human consciousness is the same, and
we don't allow billionaires anymore or not. I don't know.
I don't know how you fix it.
Speaker 3 (01:07:33):
Yeah, no, I do think I will say it. Uh,
I do agree with you. I don't think we should
have billionaires.
Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
I don't know whatever I feel like.
Speaker 3 (01:07:47):
You get how about this? You get have we talked
about this? You get a billion dollars, You reach a
billion dollars by hook or by crook, whatever, and then
you get like that, like that little gold play button
they used to give us on YouTube or platinum. You
get something like that, and instead of a play button,
(01:08:09):
it has a C for capitalism, Like you have won.
Here is your capitalism award, right, and and then you
get to start over.
Speaker 2 (01:08:20):
Yeah, and you can use that as capital of some
sort just by having the button.
Speaker 3 (01:08:27):
Yeah, you get like discounts Dave and Busters. Yeah you
get you know, you get better, better seats on planes.
But yeah, now you have to fly commercial.
Speaker 2 (01:08:39):
And it's a status thing. So you hit that status.
Now you can get the really cool stuff that you
wanted as a billionaire. But the billions actually get to
go out to help, you know, make humanity and the
earth better.
Speaker 3 (01:08:50):
And you get to keep a couple of million.
Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
Well for sure, and you can use it however you want.
Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Do whatever. And I think we've kind of pretty we've
solved it. We've solved it because that would help emphasize
the fact that a lot of people seem to forget here.
These are not souli statistics. These are people they want
and deserve all the same dignity we hope all people
can enjoy. But what's happening is that elephants are making
(01:09:18):
war for their own reasons. When elephants make war, it's
the grass that suffers.
Speaker 2 (01:09:24):
Yep.
Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
And with that we want to hear from you folks,
thank you for taking this journey with us. We hope
anyone who has traversed the gap or gone on a
similar journey, we hope that you survived. We hope you
and your loved ones are safe. If you have personal
experience with this, please please please reach out to us
(01:09:47):
in so much as you are comfortable. Let us know
what's going on. You can find us online. You can
find us for email, telephonic device. We're conspiracy stuff show
on Instagram, conspiracy stuff on Twitter and YouTube. And if
you don't sip the social needs, stay tuned for our
episode about social media. Oh you give us a phone.
Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
Call, Yeah, you can't call us, As Ben said, tell
us about your stories. Tell us if you know someone
who's being affected by the ice stuff and the immigration
stuff that's happening in the United States right now or
in the country where you live. Just what is that,
What is that feeling like to you? What do you
see in the future as a lot of countries around
(01:10:31):
the world seem to be set on a more isolationist path.
Just tell us your thoughts. Our number is one eight
three three std WYTK. When you call in, give yourself
a cool nickname and let us know. In the message
if we can use your name and message on the air.
If you've got more to say then can fit in
a three minute voicemail. Why not instead send us a
(01:10:53):
good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (01:10:54):
We are the entities that read each piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet I'm afraid sometimes the
void writes back for this in particular, folks, please be
safe out there. If you have any personal experience, share
it with us and most importantly, more importantly, your fellow listeners.
(01:11:15):
It would also be immensely helpful. Again, only if you
are comfortable in sharing things that more people contemplating these
journeys need to be aware of. From your experience, What
do you wish you had known before you cross the gap?
Conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (01:11:53):
Stuff they don't want you to know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradi
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Ben Bowlin
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