In a world where everyone feels divided by identity politics, ideology and the fear of cancellation, how does an individual navigate a cultural minefield? How can we empower and encourage direct action? In the second part of this two-part interview segment, Ben, Matt and Noel welcome returning guest John Cameron Mitchell for a wide-ranging exploration of the occult, Discordianism, saving innocent people and more.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
They call b Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. This is part two of a continuing
conversation with friends of the show the legendary John Cameron Mitchell.
Please please please tune into part one before you travel
(00:46):
to part two.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah, God does where we landed? Where we're going to
start this one off? We covered so many amazing topics
with John.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (00:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And one of the things we're talking about specifically is
his show Cancelation Island that you can listen to you
right now if you want to. It's brought to us
by Topic Studios. You guys, I look them up. They
also produced a like a television documentary called Risk back
in twenty seventeen about Julian asonge and this it was
the Laura poetrous thing that was just so interesting to
(01:16):
see the inner workings of that dude. It's cool that
they are also producing this project.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
They also had a hand in a little movie that
I believe won a couple Oscars this year called A
Real Pain with Jesse Eisenberg and the Culkin, the Young,
the Medium, Culkin, the Middle Culkin. Karen, Yeah, he's hot
right now. But topic's great for sure.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And armed with that information, fellow conspiracy realist, please join
us for Part two of our conversation with John Cabern
Mitchell in.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Progress as we speak.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I love this point of interpretation right the story, right
of a story, a common lived experience. And earlier, earlier, John,
we talked briefly about, you know, the nature of reality?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Is reality a matter of consensus? In interpretation? We see
quite a few institutions over the course of human civilization
arguing this, and it's it's real bag of badgers. You know,
it's a pickle to think on. And as we know now,
many many people feel that they have figured out the truth,
(02:34):
at least for themselves, and many other people are are
still searching, still navigating the identity. Right, what is the universe?
What part do we play in this? Tremendous theater. And
this is this is where we have to ask you.
We had this list in our notes of questions to
ask you what's next for John Cameron Mitchell. You you
(03:00):
teased a little bit about your next project. Could you
share some insider info for our audience?
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Yes, you know, a cancelation I on the podcast sitcom
of whatever you want to call it. Satire is out
now and I'm very proud of it. And we haven't
actually designed animated characters because we'd love it to be
an animated series that would be ongoing. So that's something
(03:28):
that's we're in the process of. I'm doing a reading
of my new play, my first since head Big in June,
about Claude Cahun c a h u n if you
can look up.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
And incredible story and incredible art, credible work.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Probably recognize some of the photography they did in the twenties,
but she and her female partner in art and life
went on to create a two women too, middle aged
woman art resistance cell. Again, it's the Nazi occupation and
(04:03):
Claude was half Jewish and she knew what that meant,
you know, she knew what was going to happen and
she's like, we're going to fight, but we're her wife.
Marcel was like, well, we're older women. What are we
going to do. Well, We're going to use our art.
And they, for example, they were undermining morale of normal
German soldiers. Again, their queerness made them understand it wasn't
(04:26):
a black or white situation. All Germans were not Nazis,
just as all Americans are not Magat. You know. It's
like people take advantage of economic situations and even as
a minority can take over. And Germans were known for
following orders as Japanese were and Americans aren'ts That's why
I still have hope that our military will not turn
(04:47):
on its own people when commanded by their anti military
commander in brief, and I say this as a military brat,
like I know what the military is and it's not cops,
you know what I mean to me? Claude Cahun is
a hero for our age because she and her partner,
for example, broke into a German church at night to
(05:08):
put up a banner that said Jesus is great, but
Hitler is greater because Jesus died for you, and you're
going to die for Hitler.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Love love is the wrong word. Maybe that's what an
important realization.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
That is poetry, That is truth that allows the viewer
of the so called propaganda to think about it, to
think about their lives, to make a decision about it,
not be it's not rammed down their throats. Look at
this situation.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I mean, just back to your point at the very
beginning of the show, where you know the idea of
when off news is fake, all stories are true, and
how what that means for the power of stories. And
I think maybe in times of upheaval and division, it's
things like satire and story telling that can do much
more work and be more powerful even than revolution, or
(06:05):
even at the very least be the seeds of that.
I mean, I keep thinking back to things that I
read when I was younger, like nineteen eighty four and
Fair and nine four fifty one, that at the time
seemed like fiction. But then as you grow older and
you start to see all of these little touch points
that you first were made aware of by fiction and
realize how much connection there is and how that can
not only I mean, sure it can be a bummer
(06:26):
because of the realization, but it can also give you
the tools you need to either change minds or to
have your mind changed.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
Just I don't know. I think it's very powerful.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
You're right, and you know sadly and fortunately, as facts
degrade and as let's even say, nightly evening news, which
used to be kind of accepted as somewhat true by
everybody has gone, and now we've replaced it with the
news that we want to read and see. And it's
(06:58):
been replaced also by po so there, you know, podcasts
and YouTube. It's like, we do your research right. We
have a Robert Rfk Junior saying, Wow, if you just
do your research about measles, then you'll treat it with
you know, castor oil. And it's just like, dude, you're
in charge our health. Not to mention our military and
(07:26):
our economic system, but it's like we are in this
strange almost medieval time when the number of angels on
a pin is being debated on podcasts, and podcasts like
yours are looking at those stories from an outside point
of view in a bigger context of like where are
(07:49):
we You know this? All of these stories are entertaining
in many ways, but when they become gospel and when
they justify someone going into a pizza joint. Guns, He's like,
what is going on? It reminds me of medieval times,
you know. Witches are you know thrown in?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I mean like the fun theme restaurant or no, okay, n.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Go get a go, get a pint of ale?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, John, really quickly. You you talked at the top
about how you've had friends who were directly impacted by
cancelation or through some of the culture happening there. I
want to talk about your role as Hal Carter in
the Sandman universe and then watching, you know, on just
online everything that's happening with Neil Gamon and the Sandman
(08:46):
universe and all that, and just being a part of
that universe. What has it been like for you to
experience that and just what is happening.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
It's very sad, you know, and I'm I'm friends, you know,
in a kind of cursory but friendly way with Neil
and his separated partner Amanda Palmer from way back, you know,
and see them every couple of times a year or whatever.
(09:14):
And adapted Neil's story with Philippa Gosslet how to talk
to girls at parties, which is punks versus aliens check
it out. Yeah, and I've done recorded with Amanda. And
the thing is I don't know all the facts, and
the thing is I want to believe the best about
(09:36):
my friends. And I also refuse to adjudicate the situation
that I know nothing about. That, of course, is what
cancelation is is saying I am judge and jury. This
has been said, therefore that you know I will amplify
the destruction of their career without knowing anything from behind
(09:57):
my screen. And it comes from a lack of potency
in your own life. It comes from fear, It comes
from being afraid of being canceled yourself, right, because if
you accused, then you can't be accused, or at least
that's that's the reasoning. And I hate it. I've had
all kinds of friends under the knife, under the microscope,
(10:20):
under the cancelation boom, and whether the facts are there
or not, it didn't happen to me. If something happens
to you, you deal with it. If you have don't
have the facts and it happened to someone else, let
the system figure that out. I refuse to be one
of the mob in terms of justice.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's just.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It's not right. It's a waste of energy, it can
destroy lives, you know, and who voted you in as executioner.
You know, it's like, come on, it's like, we have
a rule of law. Granted, there are when a cancelation
came up because as the legal system didn't work. But again,
unless it's happened to me, I refuse to take on
(11:07):
the robes of Supreme Court justice. It's arrogant and it's
ultimately ends up creating camps and silos. And one of
the reasons Trump was elected is because we all separated
ourselves into so called identities and so called righteous affinity
(11:28):
groups to the point that we couldn't collaborate with another
one that we have goals in common with. You know,
when people say Kamala and Trump are the same thing, Really, guys,
tell that to the transferson who's just lost their healthcare.
Tell that to the professor who's just been thrown out,
the student has been arrested, Tell them that to their face.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Hey, let's take a quick pause here, you're a word
from our sponsor, and then jump right back into talking
with John Cameron Mitchell.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I want to point out for the audience drawn your
use of the term affinity groups, which may sound like
innocuous language, but please do uh, as RFK Juger would say,
please do your own research, dig up that, dig up
that phrase.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
There's und four chan if that still exists, We're all
everything's four chun now.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, we're living the dream underground. Well really quickly,
just the last thing for me, something we touched on before.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
It really is something that both sides on this very
divided time, in this very divided time, are guilty of
in terms of weaponizing, uh, this sort of thing. There
are folks on the left that are just as guilty
of perhaps believing the worst reading, not reading past the headline,
and then maybe from a place of good intention, jumping
(12:59):
on that social justice bandwagon and just kind of asking
questions later.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
And then on the other side, you have potential.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Miss let's say, uh, spreading of misinformation, whether or not
again that is believed to be true, that you're what you're.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Doing, what you're spreading.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
There is a certain lack of fact checking oneself on
that side as well, So there is kind of, I
don't know, to your point, the idea of trying to
find that balance in the middle of those things and
realize that we have more in common with the other
side than we may realize.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
I think it's a big dose. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
The court of public opinion has a thousand judges.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
Yeah, and the sincere people on all sides, of course,
are being taken advantage of by the chaos agents that
we call our leaders, you know there. You know, Putin
himself is very clear that he's trying to sow disunion
with his cyber you know work as well as China,
(13:57):
and now Trump joins them as one of their brethren.
You know, if I was conspiracy theory minded, I you know,
to me, I'm like a nine to eleven inside job
organized by.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
The government, right, I think it's going to be that
well organized. But it's like if I did believe in
those things. You know, Trump, she and Putin have set
up a system where they wanted to. If I wanted
to take over, I would invent conspiracy theories to confuse everyone.
(14:34):
I would destroy the possibility of fact being accepted. I
would do all of the things. I would create the
internet to distract us. When a young person can't get
to the end of something he's reading or watching, how
are they going to notice?
Speaker 6 (14:50):
You know? A fascist takeover, you know, attention span itself
because alien conspiracy theory, you know, to de Troy that,
but I don't, I don't do that. I see these
things happening because of capitalism. To be honest, A lot
of even racism and the queer phobia and sexism are
(15:12):
just rampant capitalism. Here's an example, like, of course you're
going to keep casting the same white, straight male actors
as stars of the movies because they already were stars,
and that means money. If all those people were people
of color, that were trans who are already huge stars,
they would have no compunction putting them in every film.
(15:34):
You know, it's about money more than let's say, animus.
You rich people of the world you know, might be homophobic,
sexist and stuff, but more importantly, their power power is
more important than any of that stuff. And money fuels power.
(15:55):
So you know, I'm not just a simplistic Marxist, but
I also know that that money corrupts, and when you know,
we're in a situation in some ways, I almost trust
a capitalist more than a self deluded messiah. They're more predictable,
(16:15):
that's true, Like Trump is not predictable. Yeah, I think
he's drunk his own kool aid. He's high in his
own supply, and that assassination attempt has made him into
some weird self Martsiah. Yeah, save the world. You can't
break a law when you're saving the world, he says,
right right, uves that now.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
The Greater Good back off from a third term though.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Things, and then he comes back to them, doesn't He.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Also true, it's always you know, it's always like a
I'll say it. This is an apolitical point just in
terms of mechanics of conversation and rhetoric. It's always a
speech like four thirty pm on a Friday energy, you know, like, hey,
what do you guys think about I don't know, man
like Greenland, you know, spitballin. Uh, this, this conversation is
(17:04):
going in so many directions, John, and we could not
be more grateful for your time. Uh, the guys now
we're talking off air in preparation for this, and one
thing that that we want to make space for with
you today is the following. It's no secret that this
is a frightening time in the so called American experiment,
(17:28):
and right now we have a great many non binary
transace l G T B Q audience members with us today,
and so we wanted to ask you on their behalf,
what message do we wish to convey to everybody listening?
What what is the you know, uh oto love it
(17:50):
or not is about empowerment, right, So what is uh what?
What would be your message beyond cancelation island, beyond all
of your amazing work, What would be your message to
the audience.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
It's the same message I've been giving. I've been on
a college speaking tour talking about film theater, but of
course we're now talking about the situation we're in, and
young people don't have the tools anymore. You know, you
can't cancel a dictator, So to me, I want to
remind them that the good people are still here and
(18:25):
those who are not will be. It's going to become
very clear this situation, this fascist you know.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Takeover.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
You know, it's happening in slow motion and fast motion
at the same time. Will tell us what we're made
of and not everyone is a giant rebel and a
leader of resistance. But we also will find out who
the opportunists are very quickly, and they will shift quickly
from social justice warriors to maga warriors. You'll smell, you smell,
(19:00):
you'll see it happening. But I'm reminding them that the
good people are still here. And as I said earlier,
the outsiders are the ones who get us out of
hot water. The outsiders are the ones who grew up
knowing there was something different about themselves, and therefore there
was complexity to the world. There was surface, and then
(19:22):
there was truth underneath. And again, like I said, the
people who are in charge are literal. It's the outsiders.
It's the misfits who save us. And earlier I talked
about the people who come saved from the ruling class,
people who are handed life on a platter. Those people
are very literal, and it doesn't mean they're bad people.
(19:45):
It just means they haven't come up against complexity, and
so things are what they look like. When you grow
up different and you are judged by how you look
or you have a secret, you understand there's a surface
and that there's layers of reality underneath it. You understand
nuance from five years on. You know, you understand complexity.
(20:08):
You understand that things aren't what they are, and things
are not black and white. It's easier to say they are,
but we know in our heart if we're evolved minded
people are different from the mainstream that complexity rules. Some
would say chaos reigns. I prefer complexity rules because when
(20:28):
this hits the fan, you know, when your parents get Alzheimer's,
when you when the economic system shifts, who steps up?
Who's got the still skills to deal with conflict and complexity?
It tends to be the outsiders. They have the skills
and if their outsiderness has not destroyed them, because they
are misfits, and misfits kill themselves. Misfits do more drugs.
(20:54):
You know, Misfits have a lot of hurdles they have
to get over. But when they do it over them
they are evolved. They have powers. As Frank Zappa said,
there is no progress without deviation. M and the one
the deviates, which I would include much of your audience
here are the ones who are going to get us
(21:16):
out of it because we know there are other ways
of being. We're scientists of life. We experiment, we have hypotheses.
That's what this whole you know, interesting podcast is about
is hypotheses, and whether they have proof or not, they
tell us something about ourselves. And to me, we have
(21:39):
to go back to punk. Identity politics and cancelation culture
has failed us. They had good intentions, it brought up
good ideas, but it failed us because it separated us
and it helped, you know, get Trump in there. People
got tired of it, and people on the edge, you know,
(22:01):
said well, I'll give him a chance again. It was dumb,
but I understand it. We've the holier than thou kind
of thing that comes out of identity politics, stay in
your lane stuff has alienated a lot of natural buddies,
and I hate that.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
You know.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
I grew up in the military, which was highly diverse.
It was a socialist state for rednecks. Everybody was from
somewhere else. You could be an immigrant, you do service,
you become a citizen. It was America at its best
in many ways, even though it was very macho and
that was not good for women or queer people at
that time. But now it is. And Trump's about to
(22:39):
knock remove trans people from their units. What are their
unit mates going to think when you're under fire, that
trans colleague is way more important than what I called it.
Commander in brief with making fun of casualties of war,
(22:59):
calling them a users who the hell does he think
he is? Chicken hawk making fun of our military at
its best really did help us out and helps continues
to help people out through a kind of social program
of the military, you know, of getting people on their feet.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Right, providing, providing, you know, even at its most imperfect,
providing a socioeconomic avenue. Yes, right in a very yeah
meritocracy in the face of oligarchy and capitalism wherein all
things are commodial and.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
Other cultures have co opted their military by giving them,
say the oil business in Iran or you know. But
so the military will never not support the people who
feed them, right. But I was just in Korea during
that constitutional crisis when the military, when the president tried
(24:04):
to stage a coup and when push came to shove.
A coup only really takes place when the military is
willing to turn its guns on his own people, and
in that case they did not, and when democracy was saved.
And I really believe that this chicken hawk who's demanding
(24:24):
a military birthday procession will fail when a push comes
to shove and he tries, which I think he will,
to turn the military against his own citizens. He will
start with illeal immigrants in his view, and it will shift.
But once it gets to that point, he cannot remake
(24:47):
the military fast enough for them to reject him. He
can change the generals but and put a muppet in
charge of the Defense Department, but he cannot change the
fact that your unit mate, in your military unit is
way more important than this walking baby. So that's a
(25:11):
long way of saying, there is hope in the world.
There is goodness in the world. We have to think
about punk, which is about making things outside the system,
outside capitalism, outside all the approved systems, to make things work,
whether it's a demonstration or a film, or a food
bank or a neighborhood garden. New Orleans is a perfect
example of that. Hurricanes always coming. You better know your neighbors.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I really, I really thought that was an incredible point
that you made at the talk you did at Emory
that I was lucky enough to go to. I knew
about your military background, but that whole comment and that
that that train of thought about how this is not
something that folks within the military are a fan of
the idea of othering folks within the military, and that
the general sort of slow rolled a lot of those
(26:00):
policies It's not something I'd considered, and maybe it's come
up and on the on the show before, but when
you said it really put it starkly, because I guess
in my mind, having not grown up around those type
of folks, and I know, Ben you did, I often
maybe unfairly characterize folks from that world as being bigoted,
perhaps or having the potential for that. But that is
(26:20):
very much not the case. And it slapped me kind
of into reality. And I appreciate it that true much.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
The military at its best is some of the best
of America. Yes, there's a macho thing that suffuses it.
They can get very much in the way of you know,
the complexity we know exists, but that is fated, you know,
it into you know, the military integrated in the late forties,
you know, not without tension. Gays in the military came in,
(26:49):
you know, in the two thousands, was not a big issue.
Trans people came in what eight or ten years ago,
not a problem, not a problem. And of course now
this person in charges trying to make it a problem
and make queer people into the secret lizard people among us.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
And there we have it. We've brought it back, John,
We have gone again, at the risk of sounded redundant, right,
we have gone in so many deep directions. This feels
like the beginning of a much more in depth discourse.
We want to for today's purposes. We want to thank
(27:33):
you again so much, not just for joining us today,
but more importantly for bringing Cancelation Island into the world
and for exploring you know, incredibly terrifying, disturbing, and at
the same time inspiring concepts with us today.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
This was delightful. It was so much fun. I feel
like we've saved the world and had.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Done check that box off.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
All right, that's well, you know that being said, maybe
you'll come back sometimes, John, I think just this is
a breath of fresh air. Anyways, And on the show,
we often struggle to make sure that we're representing you know,
everybody and and there it does sometimes feel like we
have to tiptoe a little bit sometimes as not to offend.
And I just felt like this was such a measured
conversation about some very real things that maybe are not
(28:23):
always easy. And I think, you know, I really appreciate
you contributing to that and discourse on stuff they don't
want you to know.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
Of course, I'm sorry I'm so late.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Finally, John, John, thank you so much for casting Josh
Pisce as Carl because he was he was the voice
of Raphael for me, he was.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
I recognized him from somewhere I went to an event,
yes and yeah, yeah, mutant Ninja, you know the one.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yes, So I when I recognized his voice, I know
this person? Who is this person? And then I looked
it up and realized and he was a secret turtle, right,
not really secret, he was just a turtle.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Talk about full circle. But they're the good ones.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
They are hidden, but they're here to protect the city
from the Foot Clan.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
And Cancelation Island is available now on your favorite podcast
platform of choice. We're going to join John in the
near future and with this go forth do everything John said, honestly,
I think you nailed it.
Speaker 6 (29:36):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
And there you have it, folks, We've had technically a
week long deep dive conversation with none other than John
Cameron Mitchell, the creator of Cancelation Island. Out today wherever
you find your favorite shows, and speaking of your favorite shows,
we hope you will also join us. You can find
us online, you can call us on phone. You can
(30:00):
always reach us at our good old fashioned email address.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yes, find us online at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group here is
where it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter and on
YouTube with video content for your bruising enjoyment. On Instagram
and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff Show, and there's more.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, tell us about
your favorite therapies that might be included in this show,
like Harass the Harasser, Bad Touch football and anti racism
spin Class. Sorry, I just really get a kick out
of the.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Fun show. What a great show. Do listen to Cancelation Island.
That was very grateful to be able to be an
EP on that project.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And Man John and his co creator are just such
talented folks.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on the air. If you've got more to say
they could fit in a three minute voicemail, why not
instead send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the Void
writes back, joined us here in the dark conspiracy at
iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
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Speaker 2 (00:22):
Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt,
my name is Noah.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
They call b Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you
are here. That makes this the stuff they don't want
you to know. This is part two of a continuing
conversation with friends of the show the legendary John Cameron Mitchell.
Please please please tune into part one before you travel
(00:46):
to part two.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
Yeah, God does where we landed? Where we're going to
start this one off? We covered so many amazing topics
with John.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Oh.
Speaker 5 (00:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
And one of the things we're talking about specifically is
his show Cancelation Island that you can listen to you
right now if you want to. It's brought to us
by Topic Studios. You guys, I look them up. They
also produced a like a television documentary called Risk back
in twenty seventeen about Julian asonge and this it was
the Laura poetrous thing that was just so interesting to
(01:16):
see the inner workings of that dude. It's cool that
they are also producing this project.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
They also had a hand in a little movie that
I believe won a couple Oscars this year called A
Real Pain with Jesse Eisenberg and the Culkin, the Young,
the Medium, Culkin, the Middle Culkin. Karen, Yeah, he's hot
right now. But topic's great for sure.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
And armed with that information, fellow conspiracy realist, please join
us for Part two of our conversation with John Cabern
Mitchell in.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
Progress as we speak.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
I love this point of interpretation right the story, right
of a story, a common lived experience. And earlier, earlier, John,
we talked briefly about, you know, the nature of reality?
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Right?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Is reality a matter of consensus? In interpretation? We see
quite a few institutions over the course of human civilization
arguing this, and it's it's real bag of badgers. You know,
it's a pickle to think on. And as we know now,
many many people feel that they have figured out the truth,
(02:34):
at least for themselves, and many other people are are
still searching, still navigating the identity. Right, what is the universe?
What part do we play in this? Tremendous theater. And
this is this is where we have to ask you.
We had this list in our notes of questions to
ask you what's next for John Cameron Mitchell. You you
(03:00):
teased a little bit about your next project. Could you
share some insider info for our audience?
Speaker 6 (03:07):
Yes, you know, a cancelation I on the podcast sitcom
of whatever you want to call it. Satire is out
now and I'm very proud of it. And we haven't
actually designed animated characters because we'd love it to be
an animated series that would be ongoing. So that's something
(03:28):
that's we're in the process of. I'm doing a reading
of my new play, my first since head Big in June,
about Claude Cahun c a h u n if you
can look up.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
And incredible story and incredible art, credible work.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Probably recognize some of the photography they did in the twenties,
but she and her female partner in art and life
went on to create a two women too, middle aged
woman art resistance cell. Again, it's the Nazi occupation and
(04:03):
Claude was half Jewish and she knew what that meant,
you know, she knew what was going to happen and
she's like, we're going to fight, but we're her wife.
Marcel was like, well, we're older women. What are we
going to do. Well, We're going to use our art.
And they, for example, they were undermining morale of normal
German soldiers. Again, their queerness made them understand it wasn't
(04:26):
a black or white situation. All Germans were not Nazis,
just as all Americans are not Magat. You know. It's
like people take advantage of economic situations and even as
a minority can take over. And Germans were known for
following orders as Japanese were and Americans aren'ts That's why
I still have hope that our military will not turn
(04:47):
on its own people when commanded by their anti military
commander in brief, and I say this as a military brat,
like I know what the military is and it's not cops,
you know what I mean to me? Claude Cahun is
a hero for our age because she and her partner,
for example, broke into a German church at night to
(05:08):
put up a banner that said Jesus is great, but
Hitler is greater because Jesus died for you, and you're
going to die for Hitler.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Love love is the wrong word. Maybe that's what an
important realization.
Speaker 5 (05:27):
Yeah, I can.
Speaker 6 (05:28):
That is poetry, That is truth that allows the viewer
of the so called propaganda to think about it, to
think about their lives, to make a decision about it,
not be it's not rammed down their throats. Look at
this situation.
Speaker 4 (05:44):
I mean, just back to your point at the very
beginning of the show, where you know the idea of
when off news is fake, all stories are true, and
how what that means for the power of stories. And
I think maybe in times of upheaval and division, it's
things like satire and story telling that can do much
more work and be more powerful even than revolution, or
(06:05):
even at the very least be the seeds of that.
I mean, I keep thinking back to things that I
read when I was younger, like nineteen eighty four and
Fair and nine four fifty one, that at the time
seemed like fiction. But then as you grow older and
you start to see all of these little touch points
that you first were made aware of by fiction and
realize how much connection there is and how that can
not only I mean, sure it can be a bummer
(06:26):
because of the realization, but it can also give you
the tools you need to either change minds or to
have your mind changed.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
Just I don't know. I think it's very powerful.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
You're right, and you know sadly and fortunately, as facts
degrade and as let's even say, nightly evening news, which
used to be kind of accepted as somewhat true by
everybody has gone, and now we've replaced it with the
news that we want to read and see. And it's
(06:58):
been replaced also by po so there, you know, podcasts
and YouTube. It's like, we do your research right. We
have a Robert Rfk Junior saying, Wow, if you just
do your research about measles, then you'll treat it with
you know, castor oil. And it's just like, dude, you're
in charge our health. Not to mention our military and
(07:26):
our economic system, but it's like we are in this
strange almost medieval time when the number of angels on
a pin is being debated on podcasts, and podcasts like
yours are looking at those stories from an outside point
of view in a bigger context of like where are
(07:49):
we You know this? All of these stories are entertaining
in many ways, but when they become gospel and when
they justify someone going into a pizza joint. Guns, He's like,
what is going on? It reminds me of medieval times,
you know. Witches are you know thrown in?
Speaker 4 (08:08):
I mean like the fun theme restaurant or no, okay, n.
Speaker 5 (08:20):
Go get a go, get a pint of ale?
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, John, really quickly. You you talked at the top
about how you've had friends who were directly impacted by
cancelation or through some of the culture happening there. I
want to talk about your role as Hal Carter in
the Sandman universe and then watching, you know, on just
online everything that's happening with Neil Gamon and the Sandman
(08:46):
universe and all that, and just being a part of
that universe. What has it been like for you to
experience that and just what is happening.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
It's very sad, you know, and I'm I'm friends, you know,
in a kind of cursory but friendly way with Neil
and his separated partner Amanda Palmer from way back, you know,
and see them every couple of times a year or whatever.
(09:14):
And adapted Neil's story with Philippa Gosslet how to talk
to girls at parties, which is punks versus aliens check
it out. Yeah, and I've done recorded with Amanda. And
the thing is I don't know all the facts, and
the thing is I want to believe the best about
(09:36):
my friends. And I also refuse to adjudicate the situation
that I know nothing about. That, of course, is what
cancelation is is saying I am judge and jury. This
has been said, therefore that you know I will amplify
the destruction of their career without knowing anything from behind
(09:57):
my screen. And it comes from a lack of potency
in your own life. It comes from fear, It comes
from being afraid of being canceled yourself, right, because if
you accused, then you can't be accused, or at least
that's that's the reasoning. And I hate it. I've had
all kinds of friends under the knife, under the microscope,
(10:20):
under the cancelation boom, and whether the facts are there
or not, it didn't happen to me. If something happens
to you, you deal with it. If you have don't
have the facts and it happened to someone else, let
the system figure that out. I refuse to be one
of the mob in terms of justice.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's just.
Speaker 6 (10:43):
It's not right. It's a waste of energy, it can
destroy lives, you know, and who voted you in as executioner.
You know, it's like, come on, it's like, we have
a rule of law. Granted, there are when a cancelation
came up because as the legal system didn't work. But again,
unless it's happened to me, I refuse to take on
(11:07):
the robes of Supreme Court justice. It's arrogant and it's
ultimately ends up creating camps and silos. And one of
the reasons Trump was elected is because we all separated
ourselves into so called identities and so called righteous affinity
(11:28):
groups to the point that we couldn't collaborate with another
one that we have goals in common with. You know,
when people say Kamala and Trump are the same thing, Really, guys,
tell that to the transferson who's just lost their healthcare.
Tell that to the professor who's just been thrown out,
the student has been arrested, Tell them that to their face.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
Hey, let's take a quick pause here, you're a word
from our sponsor, and then jump right back into talking
with John Cameron Mitchell.
Speaker 5 (12:02):
Okay, we're back.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
I want to point out for the audience drawn your
use of the term affinity groups, which may sound like
innocuous language, but please do uh, as RFK Juger would say,
please do your own research, dig up that, dig up
that phrase.
Speaker 6 (12:21):
There's und four chan if that still exists, We're all
everything's four chun now.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Oh yeah, yeah, we're living the dream underground. Well really quickly,
just the last thing for me, something we touched on before.
Speaker 4 (12:37):
It really is something that both sides on this very
divided time, in this very divided time, are guilty of
in terms of weaponizing, uh, this sort of thing. There
are folks on the left that are just as guilty
of perhaps believing the worst reading, not reading past the headline,
and then maybe from a place of good intention, jumping
(12:59):
on that social justice bandwagon and just kind of asking
questions later.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (13:04):
And then on the other side, you have potential.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Miss let's say, uh, spreading of misinformation, whether or not
again that is believed to be true, that you're what you're.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
Doing, what you're spreading.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
There is a certain lack of fact checking oneself on
that side as well, So there is kind of, I
don't know, to your point, the idea of trying to
find that balance in the middle of those things and
realize that we have more in common with the other
side than we may realize.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
I think it's a big dose. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
The court of public opinion has a thousand judges.
Speaker 6 (13:37):
Yeah, and the sincere people on all sides, of course,
are being taken advantage of by the chaos agents that
we call our leaders, you know there. You know, Putin
himself is very clear that he's trying to sow disunion
with his cyber you know work as well as China,
(13:57):
and now Trump joins them as one of their brethren.
You know, if I was conspiracy theory minded, I you know,
to me, I'm like a nine to eleven inside job
organized by.
Speaker 7 (14:12):
The government, right, I think it's going to be that
well organized. But it's like if I did believe in
those things. You know, Trump, she and Putin have set
up a system where they wanted to. If I wanted
to take over, I would invent conspiracy theories to confuse everyone.
(14:34):
I would destroy the possibility of fact being accepted. I
would do all of the things. I would create the
internet to distract us. When a young person can't get
to the end of something he's reading or watching, how
are they going to notice?
Speaker 6 (14:50):
You know? A fascist takeover, you know, attention span itself
because alien conspiracy theory, you know, to de Troy that,
but I don't, I don't do that. I see these
things happening because of capitalism. To be honest, A lot
of even racism and the queer phobia and sexism are
(15:12):
just rampant capitalism. Here's an example, like, of course you're
going to keep casting the same white, straight male actors
as stars of the movies because they already were stars,
and that means money. If all those people were people
of color, that were trans who are already huge stars,
they would have no compunction putting them in every film.
(15:34):
You know, it's about money more than let's say, animus.
You rich people of the world you know, might be homophobic,
sexist and stuff, but more importantly, their power power is
more important than any of that stuff. And money fuels power.
(15:55):
So you know, I'm not just a simplistic Marxist, but
I also know that that money corrupts, and when you know,
we're in a situation in some ways, I almost trust
a capitalist more than a self deluded messiah. They're more predictable,
(16:15):
that's true, Like Trump is not predictable. Yeah, I think
he's drunk his own kool aid. He's high in his
own supply, and that assassination attempt has made him into
some weird self Martsiah. Yeah, save the world. You can't
break a law when you're saving the world, he says,
right right, uves that now.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
The Greater Good back off from a third term though.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Things, and then he comes back to them, doesn't He.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Also true, it's always you know, it's always like a
I'll say it. This is an apolitical point just in
terms of mechanics of conversation and rhetoric. It's always a
speech like four thirty pm on a Friday energy, you know, like, hey,
what do you guys think about I don't know, man
like Greenland, you know, spitballin. Uh, this, this conversation is
(17:04):
going in so many directions, John, and we could not
be more grateful for your time. Uh, the guys now
we're talking off air in preparation for this, and one
thing that that we want to make space for with
you today is the following. It's no secret that this
is a frightening time in the so called American experiment,
(17:28):
and right now we have a great many non binary
transace l G T B Q audience members with us today,
and so we wanted to ask you on their behalf,
what message do we wish to convey to everybody listening?
What what is the you know, uh oto love it
(17:50):
or not is about empowerment, right, So what is uh what?
What would be your message beyond cancelation island, beyond all
of your amazing work, What would be your message to
the audience.
Speaker 6 (18:03):
It's the same message I've been giving. I've been on
a college speaking tour talking about film theater, but of
course we're now talking about the situation we're in, and
young people don't have the tools anymore. You know, you
can't cancel a dictator, So to me, I want to
remind them that the good people are still here and
(18:25):
those who are not will be. It's going to become
very clear this situation, this fascist you know.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Takeover.
Speaker 6 (18:36):
You know, it's happening in slow motion and fast motion
at the same time. Will tell us what we're made
of and not everyone is a giant rebel and a
leader of resistance. But we also will find out who
the opportunists are very quickly, and they will shift quickly
from social justice warriors to maga warriors. You'll smell, you smell,
(19:00):
you'll see it happening. But I'm reminding them that the
good people are still here. And as I said earlier,
the outsiders are the ones who get us out of
hot water. The outsiders are the ones who grew up
knowing there was something different about themselves, and therefore there
was complexity to the world. There was surface, and then
(19:22):
there was truth underneath. And again, like I said, the
people who are in charge are literal. It's the outsiders.
It's the misfits who save us. And earlier I talked
about the people who come saved from the ruling class,
people who are handed life on a platter. Those people
are very literal, and it doesn't mean they're bad people.
(19:45):
It just means they haven't come up against complexity, and
so things are what they look like. When you grow
up different and you are judged by how you look
or you have a secret, you understand there's a surface
and that there's layers of reality underneath it. You understand
nuance from five years on. You know, you understand complexity.
(20:08):
You understand that things aren't what they are, and things
are not black and white. It's easier to say they are,
but we know in our heart if we're evolved minded
people are different from the mainstream that complexity rules. Some
would say chaos reigns. I prefer complexity rules because when
(20:28):
this hits the fan, you know, when your parents get Alzheimer's,
when you when the economic system shifts, who steps up?
Who's got the still skills to deal with conflict and complexity?
It tends to be the outsiders. They have the skills
and if their outsiderness has not destroyed them, because they
are misfits, and misfits kill themselves. Misfits do more drugs.
(20:54):
You know, Misfits have a lot of hurdles they have
to get over. But when they do it over them
they are evolved. They have powers. As Frank Zappa said,
there is no progress without deviation. M and the one
the deviates, which I would include much of your audience
here are the ones who are going to get us
(21:16):
out of it because we know there are other ways
of being. We're scientists of life. We experiment, we have hypotheses.
That's what this whole you know, interesting podcast is about
is hypotheses, and whether they have proof or not, they
tell us something about ourselves. And to me, we have
(21:39):
to go back to punk. Identity politics and cancelation culture
has failed us. They had good intentions, it brought up
good ideas, but it failed us because it separated us
and it helped, you know, get Trump in there. People
got tired of it, and people on the edge, you know,
(22:01):
said well, I'll give him a chance again. It was dumb,
but I understand it. We've the holier than thou kind
of thing that comes out of identity politics, stay in
your lane stuff has alienated a lot of natural buddies,
and I hate that.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
You know.
Speaker 6 (22:18):
I grew up in the military, which was highly diverse.
It was a socialist state for rednecks. Everybody was from
somewhere else. You could be an immigrant, you do service,
you become a citizen. It was America at its best
in many ways, even though it was very macho and
that was not good for women or queer people at
that time. But now it is. And Trump's about to
(22:39):
knock remove trans people from their units. What are their
unit mates going to think when you're under fire, that
trans colleague is way more important than what I called it.
Commander in brief with making fun of casualties of war,
(22:59):
calling them a users who the hell does he think
he is? Chicken hawk making fun of our military at
its best really did help us out and helps continues
to help people out through a kind of social program
of the military, you know, of getting people on their feet.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Right, providing, providing, you know, even at its most imperfect,
providing a socioeconomic avenue. Yes, right in a very yeah
meritocracy in the face of oligarchy and capitalism wherein all
things are commodial and.
Speaker 6 (23:40):
Other cultures have co opted their military by giving them,
say the oil business in Iran or you know. But
so the military will never not support the people who
feed them, right. But I was just in Korea during
that constitutional crisis when the military, when the president tried
(24:04):
to stage a coup and when push came to shove.
A coup only really takes place when the military is
willing to turn its guns on his own people, and
in that case they did not, and when democracy was saved.
And I really believe that this chicken hawk who's demanding
(24:24):
a military birthday procession will fail when a push comes
to shove and he tries, which I think he will,
to turn the military against his own citizens. He will
start with illeal immigrants in his view, and it will shift.
But once it gets to that point, he cannot remake
(24:47):
the military fast enough for them to reject him. He
can change the generals but and put a muppet in
charge of the Defense Department, but he cannot change the
fact that your unit mate, in your military unit is
way more important than this walking baby. So that's a
(25:11):
long way of saying, there is hope in the world.
There is goodness in the world. We have to think
about punk, which is about making things outside the system,
outside capitalism, outside all the approved systems, to make things work,
whether it's a demonstration or a film, or a food
bank or a neighborhood garden. New Orleans is a perfect
example of that. Hurricanes always coming. You better know your neighbors.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
I really, I really thought that was an incredible point
that you made at the talk you did at Emory
that I was lucky enough to go to. I knew
about your military background, but that whole comment and that
that that train of thought about how this is not
something that folks within the military are a fan of
the idea of othering folks within the military, and that
the general sort of slow rolled a lot of those
(26:00):
policies It's not something I'd considered, and maybe it's come
up and on the on the show before, but when
you said it really put it starkly, because I guess
in my mind, having not grown up around those type
of folks, and I know, Ben you did, I often
maybe unfairly characterize folks from that world as being bigoted,
perhaps or having the potential for that. But that is
(26:20):
very much not the case. And it slapped me kind
of into reality. And I appreciate it that true much.
Speaker 6 (26:24):
The military at its best is some of the best
of America. Yes, there's a macho thing that suffuses it.
They can get very much in the way of you know,
the complexity we know exists, but that is fated, you know,
it into you know, the military integrated in the late forties,
you know, not without tension. Gays in the military came in,
(26:49):
you know, in the two thousands, was not a big issue.
Trans people came in what eight or ten years ago,
not a problem, not a problem. And of course now
this person in charges trying to make it a problem
and make queer people into the secret lizard people among us.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
And there we have it. We've brought it back, John,
We have gone again, at the risk of sounded redundant, right,
we have gone in so many deep directions. This feels
like the beginning of a much more in depth discourse.
We want to for today's purposes. We want to thank
(27:33):
you again so much, not just for joining us today,
but more importantly for bringing Cancelation Island into the world
and for exploring you know, incredibly terrifying, disturbing, and at
the same time inspiring concepts with us today.
Speaker 6 (27:54):
This was delightful. It was so much fun. I feel
like we've saved the world and had.
Speaker 5 (28:00):
Done check that box off.
Speaker 4 (28:03):
All right, that's well, you know that being said, maybe
you'll come back sometimes, John, I think just this is
a breath of fresh air. Anyways, And on the show,
we often struggle to make sure that we're representing you know,
everybody and and there it does sometimes feel like we
have to tiptoe a little bit sometimes as not to offend.
And I just felt like this was such a measured
conversation about some very real things that maybe are not
(28:23):
always easy. And I think, you know, I really appreciate
you contributing to that and discourse on stuff they don't
want you to know.
Speaker 6 (28:29):
Of course, I'm sorry I'm so late.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Finally, John, John, thank you so much for casting Josh
Pisce as Carl because he was he was the voice
of Raphael for me, he was.
Speaker 4 (28:47):
I recognized him from somewhere I went to an event,
yes and yeah, yeah, mutant Ninja, you know the one.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yes, So I when I recognized his voice, I know
this person? Who is this person? And then I looked
it up and realized and he was a secret turtle, right,
not really secret, he was just a turtle.
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Talk about full circle. But they're the good ones.
Speaker 4 (29:15):
They are hidden, but they're here to protect the city
from the Foot Clan.
Speaker 3 (29:19):
And Cancelation Island is available now on your favorite podcast
platform of choice. We're going to join John in the
near future and with this go forth do everything John said, honestly,
I think you nailed it.
Speaker 6 (29:36):
Oh, I love it.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
And there you have it, folks, We've had technically a
week long deep dive conversation with none other than John
Cameron Mitchell, the creator of Cancelation Island. Out today wherever
you find your favorite shows, and speaking of your favorite shows,
we hope you will also join us. You can find
us online, you can call us on phone. You can
(30:00):
always reach us at our good old fashioned email address.
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yes, find us online at the handle Conspiracy Stuff where
we exist on Facebook with our Facebook group here is
where it gets crazy, on x FKA, Twitter and on
YouTube with video content for your bruising enjoyment. On Instagram
and TikTok. However, we're Conspiracy Stuff Show, and there's more.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
We have a phone number. It is one eight three
three std WYTK. When you call in, tell us about
your favorite therapies that might be included in this show,
like Harass the Harasser, Bad Touch football and anti racism
spin Class. Sorry, I just really get a kick out
of the.
Speaker 5 (30:38):
Fun show. What a great show. Do listen to Cancelation Island.
That was very grateful to be able to be an
EP on that project.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
And Man John and his co creator are just such
talented folks.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
When you call in, give yourself a cool nickname and
let us know if we can use your name and
message on the air. If you've got more to say
they could fit in a three minute voicemail, why not
instead send us a good old fashioned email.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence
we receive. Be well aware, yet unafraid. Sometimes the Void
writes back, joined us here in the dark conspiracy at
iHeartRadio dot com.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
Stuff they Don't want you to Know is a production
of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
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Ben Bowlin
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Amy Robach & T.J. Holmes present: Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial
Introducing… Aubrey O’Day Diddy’s former protege, television personality, platinum selling music artist, Danity Kane alum Aubrey O’Day joins veteran journalists Amy Robach and TJ Holmes to provide a unique perspective on the trial that has captivated the attention of the nation. Join them throughout the trial as they discuss, debate, and dissect every detail, every aspect of the proceedings. Aubrey will offer her opinions and expertise, as only she is qualified to do given her first-hand knowledge. From her days on Making the Band, as she emerged as the breakout star, the truth of the situation would be the opposite of the glitz and glamour. Listen throughout every minute of the trial, for this exclusive coverage. Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Aubrey O’Day, Covering the Diddy Trial, an iHeartRadio podcast.
Good Hang with Amy Poehler
Come hang with Amy Poehler. Each week on her podcast, she'll welcome celebrities and fun people to her studio. They'll share stories about their careers, mutual friends, shared enthusiasms, and most importantly, what's been making them laugh. This podcast is not about trying to make you better or giving advice. Amy just wants to have a good time.