July 7, 2021 • 54 mins
At the close of World War II, infamous Nazi war criminal Josef Mengele fled in secret to South America, successfully evading justice for the rest of his life. Modern experts still wonder what exactly he was up to during his time there, from 1949 to 1979. Some are convinced he continued experimenting on human beings, seeking a way to create twins -- and one settlement he visited, Cândido Godói, has an abnormally high frequency of twin births to this day. Could Mengele have been involved?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Paul Mission controlled decond Most importantly, you are you. You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. After taking a very long hiatus
from this realm of topics, we are returning to the
(00:50):
world of the Nazis. The Nazi Party of Germany and
World War Two has become a source of many, many
proposed conspiracies and proven conspiracies as as we learn more
and more about the inner workings of of that regime.
(01:11):
And nowadays you know, we can we can say with
certitude certain statements that would have once been considered controversial
or conspiratorial, like now we can say it is common
knowledge that many Nazi officials and Nazi collaborators escaped to
South America in the aftermath of World War Two. It's
a genuine, vast conspiracy. You hear them called ratlines right,
(01:35):
thousands of people fled from Europe to Brazil, Chile, especially Argentina,
and as the world was trying to recover from the
atrocities of war, there were these investigators from places like
West Germany and Israel, and individuals who were tracking down Nazis,
sifting through rumors, trying to hunt these men who would
(01:58):
be ghost as. You want to learn more about that,
check out Operation Adessa, I think is the episode we
did on that topic. Specifically, we have a lot of
we have a lot of Nazi episodes because they did
a lot of terrible things. But the weird, weirdest part
here is when we're talking about the Nazis escaping to
South America. We're talking about a true thing, a real
(02:23):
event that went on for years, but we're also talking
about all the rumors that built off that, like the
idea that Adolf Hitler himself may have escaped. That's a
story for another day, but today's episode is when people
might not have heard of. It. Concerns the infamous Nazi doctor,
the so called Angel of Death, Joseph Mangel, and the
(02:47):
conspiracy theory that he continued his horrific experiments long after
the end of World War two today's episode, fellow conspiracy realist,
What is Candido good Oi and what the hell is
happening there? Yes, here are the facts. It's a city
you probably haven't heard of unless you've heard of this
(03:09):
story or unless you have visited a specific part of Brazil.
Rio Grande do sul So. Candido Goody is a city
in Rio grand do soul Brazil. Um. It's a pretty
small place, populations somewhere between six thousand and only seven thousand, uh.
(03:29):
And you can find its close to the Argentine border. Um.
And there you'll find a small settlement in the city
called Lena sal Pedro. And that population is even smaller,
with just a few hundred people there. Um. It was
founded by an original population of only eight families back
in nineteen eighteen. In their defense, these are big families. Yes,
(03:53):
that's right, that's right. And uh, if you don't mind, Ben,
I'd like to pull in a quote here. There's a
video that the BBC put out in UH that I
won't tell you the name of right now, but there's
a quote from an historian we're going to meet later
more in depth in this episode. But you're just according
to him, he says, there are like a slightly higher
(04:17):
number there, I think fifteen to twenty families, but again
it's like the original eight families to you know, maybe
up to twenty. Essentially just putting that out there as
like we're pretty we're pretty sure it was a very
few number of actual families that founded this place, right,
and then later later immigrants would come. But something unusual
(04:39):
was happening because although Candido Goodoy was colonized by the
Spanish forces, the area now is primarily inhabited by descendants
a little bit from Poland, but primarily German immigrants. And
what's more, these immigrants mostly originate from a single region
(05:01):
of Germany, a place called Hunsruck, which is also known
for a weird tendency amongst amongst its population. So if
you go to Lenha sal Pedro, uh, you'll immediately notice
some odd things. First, people aren't speaking Portuguese as often
(05:23):
as you would think. They tend to speak a German dialect. Secondly,
you're gonna see a lot of people who look alike
because there are a ton of twins in lin haa
sal Pedro, a a lot quite a few. Uh. It
is noticeable when you walk through town, and for years
scientists have struggled and failed to discover why as many
(05:46):
as one in five pregnancies in this area results in twins,
most of them, according to the legends, being blonde haired
and blue eyed. Very curious, Um, so why how many
are we talking? Um? The birth rate stats for twins
(06:07):
in Candido is ten percent, which is significantly higher than
in the rest of the state, where it's only about
one point eight percent UM. So this is one of
the highest what you'd call twinning rates in the entire world.
And this is a noteworthy pattern, um, at least during
(06:27):
the early twentieth century, when the first immigrants started to
set a precedent arriving um with seventeen sets of twins, um,
you know amongst them. Uh. And if you visit the
area today, you might still notice that it is, like
you said, Ben, like instantly, something that's remarkable. How many,
just how many sets of twins you'll see just on
(06:49):
a given day looking around. Well, you think about that,
that's one in ten kids that are born are kids
instead of kid. Yeah, that's crazy. And the stats can
you know, you'll as suite listeners, of course you clocked
that that rate of twins was given as ten percent,
(07:10):
but then scientists also projected one in five pregnancies. We're
we're aware of this discrepancy. It's coming from a couple
of different sources. And of course birth rates do change
or they vary over time. But yeah, yeah, it's a
lot of twins. Yeah, that ten percent, I believe in
a particular study we looked at was between nine. Well
(07:34):
we're also talking about ten percent of a very small population,
which makes it extra noticeable when you walk in. It's like, wow,
they're everywhere, and you know, we know, um what a mystery.
Twins still continue to be as to what leads to them,
as to like their ability to communicate differently, you know,
I mean there are there's something that you know, if
(07:55):
you if you know anybody who has a twin sibling
they claim to and you know, I mean honestly, you
can't not believe them have this uh kind of almost
telekinetic ability or this ability to kind of like feel
things about each other from far distances for example, um,
or you know, to be able to almost like speak
without speaking to each other. It's very very interesting and
(08:18):
not a lot of note about that, uh, and that
totally applies to this case only this is an extra
weird kind of twist, like why so many twins in
this small area? And one of the theories is quite disturbing. Yeah,
and I have I I do just spoiler alert have
what I feel like is the explanation here. But let's
(08:38):
let's let's walk through the crazy stuff. I want to
step back because there was something I wanted to point out. So, yeah,
this is extraordinary because of the birth rates in the
number of twins relative to the population. But for comparison,
there are places that have, you know, in absolute numbers,
much higher tendencies towards the production of twins, and Nigeria
(09:02):
actually leads the world in this regard. Also, I always,
I always thought it would be cool to have a twin,
but I think for most of us the concept is
incredibly alien. And that's why singles, right, even if you
have siblings, you're a single, right in comparison to twins.
That's why singles, like the majority of us in the
(09:23):
audience today, are always fascinated by this and then the
rumors of this connection, this idea of clara voyance, this
idea of unspoken communication. We're not the only people fascinated
by this. Mangolia was also fascinated by the idea of twins,
and over the past few decades, various scientists, scholars, and
(09:46):
historians have attempted to figure out just what causes this place,
this tiny spot in in Brazil to produce so many twins.
Locals have guests about this too, because you know, they're
the ones directly affected, so they might say that they
have a couple of different theories. Uh. One of the
most interesting I think is is almost a horror movie trope.
(10:08):
Is something in the water, yeah, or or it's you know,
a blessing in a weird way, it's a curse or
a blessing, depending on how you look at it, if
it were true, right, and just the concept that there's
minerals or something about the pH or some specific thing
about the rock formations where the water you know, the
tributaries are and everything where specifically gets to that one area. Um,
(10:30):
there are a few, right, yes, exactly, you know, and
and that's like we said, lore that that was a
you know, a legend essentially, and that there are a
few others that you know, maybe specific groups of locals
had or rumors, but most of it had to do with. Honestly,
(10:51):
the most prominent one I saw there was water or
the one we're about to mention, right, there is another
theory and it's one that uh, it's one that's led
people around the world on a very strange exploration down
a very odd rabbit hole. One of the most disturbing
theories to explain the twins of Candido Godoy is the
(11:14):
idea that the infamous Nazi Joseph Mangles, the Angel of
Death never really stopped his experiments. He just moved shop
from Germany to Brazil. We're gonna pause for a word
from our sponsor and then we'll dive into this story ourselves.
(11:37):
Here's where it gets crazy, the connection when we say
we're talking about this Angel of Death. First off, we
have to learn a little bit more about who he
is and what his what his weird deal with human
experimentation and twins actually was. Yeah, I mean there's accounts
(11:58):
I've read. You know, he was the notorious um presence
at the offloading sites where you know, these undesirable races
like the Jewish race, Um, the Roman people and LGBTQ population,
for example, were a rounded up in these cattle cars
on the rail lines and then unloaded at these concentration camps,
(12:19):
and he would kind of lurk around these places, you know,
with his associates. And um, I read an account of
of of a family mother and to twin daughters, and
they heard, you know, one of the Naziss officers say
twins and and and she looks at the mother and
says twins, and she goes yes, is that good? And
(12:41):
he goes yes, and then takes them away and they
never see their mother again. Um. And that's common because
he was there like kind of trolling for twins, because
that was a big part of something he was fascinated with.
He thought was what it would add to the efficacy
of the bizarre experiments that he was doing that included
everything from disfigurement, artificial insemination. Um, what out spin? I
(13:04):
mean it's you know, maiming, just literally like trying to
see how the human body would react to the most horrible,
despicable conditions. Yeah, I would just say likely. That comes
from the account of Ava Moses core who who told
her entire story in a series of writing and writings
and documentaries, and she says that specifically the the twins
(13:28):
were all taken and placed in a separate barracks away
from everybody else, and they were separated by what Manglai
considered their gender at the time, girls and boys. And
they had a very rigid schedule that they kept too.
According to Ava, on Monday's, Wednesdays and Fridays, they would
have to all walk over to a building that was
(13:50):
called Auschwitz one, and there Mingla and other doctors and
others just working for them would measure them essentially, run
run diagnostic tests on their bodies, and do comparisons between
the two twins. Then on Tuesday's, Thursdays and Saturdays, that's
(14:11):
when a lot of the experimentation would happen. Uh that
they called it the blood lab, or have at least
called it the blood lab. And there would be she said,
around thirty children in this one area. They would all
sit in chairs and if they would have their arms
strapped down and in one of their arms they would
have blood taken out for testing, and the other arm
(14:33):
they would have injections where who knows what's being put
into them, but they would get injections. A lot of
that has lost to history. Actually, the efficacy, I would
I think the important point we need to make here
is the distinction. This comes up when we talk about
uh Nazi war crimes as well as Unit thirty one
in Japan. There is a distinction here that needs to
(14:56):
be made between what would be considered human experimentation and
what would be considered torture. Uh. The methodology of a
lot of these so called scientists was unsound because their
aim was it had the patina of scientific rigor. But
(15:18):
these are war crimes, and a lot of the a
lot of the science that was derived from those activities
turns out not to be good, not not to be
super worthwhile. Uh. Yeah. For mainly the thing is that
people know about the twins. But while he, like many people,
was fascinated by twins, Uh, first off, he's a very
(15:41):
very bad person. He is in direct violation of things
like the hippocratic gowth do no harm right. He was
literally one of the people who would select folks to
go straight to the gas chambers or to be worked
to death or subjected to experiments. And all of his
under leans and all of his collaborators have been given
(16:02):
special instructions not just to find twins, but to find
to find people who were dwarves. Or little people, to
find people who are extraordinarily large or tall, anyone with
a unique what we would recognize as a hereditary trait
like hetero chromia, eyes of a slightly different color, or
(16:24):
a club foot, or even polydactyl people if those turned
up and extra fingers, we mean more than the usual
five per hand. Uh. And the reason when he had
these twins, the horrific things that he was doing to
them while right while the rest of their family is
also being tortured and put to death. Here Uh, these
(16:47):
these horrific things can the scope of them can be
found just in the following statistic. They pulled about three
thousand twins right over the course of May Galaize time
in Germany when he was in Auschwitz, and most of
those twins were children. Of those three thousand, only two
(17:09):
hundred survived, and and really in a very real way
against all lots. So this this guy, let me give
you his rationalization, I was doing this. So he was
doing this not just not just because he's a horrible person,
but also because Adolph Hitler had given him instructions to
(17:30):
figure out ways to increase the population of what he
considered to be the master race. A k a. The
Arians and Mangalais was researching twins because the logic here,
if logic existed, was the idea that if we can
figure out what creates twins, then we can go to
(17:51):
the people we want to reproduce and we can do
something to them. We can affect their biology such that
every birth they have will result in twins or heck,
you know triplets. Who knows though they were twin focused right,
and that if we can do that, we will essentially
be doubling our birth rate. That was their logic. It's
(18:13):
a two for one deal. I mean really, it is
just absolutely that Nazi efficiency that everything needs to kind
of serve a purpose and you don't have any waste
or whatever. And the thing that's most terrific to me
as well about these uh, you're absolutely right then, I
mean absolutely unsound science. And you really could just classify
his torturing is he would use one twin as like
(18:35):
the experiment subject and then use the other one as
a control. And if my understanding is correct, they would
often be made to watch each other be tortured. Yeah,
that's a that's horrifying. I I I want to bring
up something and this is a complete speculation on my part, guys,
but I just want to ask you what you think
about this. It is known that in the upper echelons
(18:58):
of the Nazi par there was a belief there's a
lot of magical thinking, and there there were some odd
beliefs there that I think may have also led to
a further fascination with twins, as in a possible connection
beyond the physical, if that makes sense. And I do.
(19:20):
I do wonder if anything, if any beliefs they're led
to this fascination as well, because you know, you'll notice
we're not talking about them experimenting on the mothers, the
people who birthed twins, right, We're not talking about a
focus on the fathers who who you know, created twins.
It's it's on the twins themselves. And I just I
(19:42):
just wonder, and again this is me just thinking aloud.
I wonder if there was something more to that fascination. Well,
there's a lot of folklore in in Germany surrounding twins,
like the Alsies, which were a pair of twin brother
odds that were warships by Germanic people's and and survives
(20:05):
and and we know at a time and again, this
is just a line of we're just freestyling the speculation here,
but we know that we know that there was a
movement in the party to generate a new kind of religion,
right or to you know, replace the concept of Christianity
that was popular. So there there could be some symbolism
(20:28):
motivating people in that way. But long story short, before
you spent too much time in Manley in Germany. UH.
Spoiler alert, and this is a good spoiler. UH. Nazi
Germany lost World War two for a number of reasons.
If you haven't caught up with that one. Yes, that
Nazi Germany lost World War two, and the people in
(20:51):
power found themselves desperate to escape justice uh, and to
escape the various forces that wanted to hold to account
for their crimes. So the war draws to a closed
Germany is falling. Mangelad travels to South America nineteen forty nine.
In July, he sails to Argentina, and he has the
(21:12):
help of the rat Line. Rat Line and network of
other former SS members and Nazi sympathizers, many of whom
were associated with the Church. They were getting these people
new identities, they were giving them supplies from you know,
all the all the stuff they stole during World War
two was providing funding for these folks, and so for
(21:34):
about a decade, the Angel of Death is living in
and around Buenos Aires, just under an assumed name, and
the heat hasn't caught up to him. But when he
starts to feel something shift in the wind, he flees
first to Paraguay and then to Brazil. And when he
reaches Brazil, it's nineteen sixty. If you're interested in a
(22:00):
remarkably historically inaccurate but relatively interesting show to watch around
this type of stuff, there's a show called Hunters starring
Al Pacino, where it's like this very fictionalized almost like
ragtag band of like sort of you know, uh an
a team kind of situation where it's these Nazi hunters
(22:21):
they're looking for, you know, war criminal Nazis, and there
are things in it that are based on reality, but
there it's absolutely overblown and embellished in Hollywood eyes. I
believe Ben coined that last episode. Um, but it's it's
worth a watch. It's it's not great, but it's it's interesting,
much like the is it the Arrogant Bastards, which it's
(22:42):
very quick, it's Quentin Tarantino style. I would say I
was surprised watching Hunters. I was surprised to learn that
he wasn't the one making it right. I was also
surprised with kind of how far they go down some
of the more uncomfortable territories of this type of thing.
UM almost made it a little unpleasant at times, it
being such a kind of schlocky, grandiose, uh, you know,
(23:05):
kind of revisionist history type show. But I leave it
to you to decide what you think of the show Hunters,
and let us know. And this is exactly what Mangola
was going through. Um. He was a wanted man. He
was on the lamb. He was being hunted by officials
from West Germany and Israel who were, you know, in
cooperation in this endeavor, and that included people like Simon Wisenthal.
(23:30):
All of these individuals wanted to bring him and those
like him to justice for his absolutely despicable war crimes.
Because let's make no mistake, that is what these were.
He was holding people against their will and performing you know,
inhumane experiments on them. Um and and as you said,
been resulting in thousands and thousands of deaths. UM. But
(23:53):
Mangola was a smart guy. Um. You know, he knew
what he was doing in terms of you know, you know,
plotting his escape. Um, he had he had the right
idea in the nineteen help That's what I'm saying. He
worked with the right people exactly. And then there's there
was this network that was established, these rat lines, like
you said, Um, and many did get caught, but many escaped.
(24:15):
And sort of that almost trope you see in a
lot of fiction about like the you know, the Nazi
war criminal, you know, pretending to be a mild mannered
old man living next door to you in the suburbs. Um.
I believe that happens as well. In The Marathon Man,
the character that does the played by Lawrence Olivier who
(24:35):
does the you know, dental torture that's a you know,
an escape Nazi war criminal were it's supposed to be. Um,
who I believe is also called the Angel of Death
if I'm not mistaken in the movie, it's not the
same Angel of Death, I don't believe, but that is
his nickname. UM. So he he assumes a false name,
Wolfgang Gerhard Uh and they don't find his true identity
(24:56):
until he dies by the way natural causes more or
less of a stroke. Uh in nineteen seventy nine, while
having a nice swim off the Brazilian coast and he drowns. Um.
But again, he's been masquerading as this wolf Wolfgang Gerhard
character and his true identity isn't determined when his remains
are exhumed and forced to be subject to forensic analysis. Yeah. Yeah,
(25:23):
so in a very real sense, he got away, and
they all they know is that there was a real
Wolfgang Gerhard. At some point that guy left the picture
and mangele it became him so well, and we know
that he had it. I think at least three names
(25:45):
or yeah, but but I know of three off the
top of my head. So he was definitely changing chameleon
ing movie. He was doing that out of necessity because
you don't, I mean, you do want to you do
want to have more than one. It's kind of like
doing a shell company, right, because each one will make
you more difficult to trace, but it also requires more
(26:08):
work on your part or for whomever's handling you. So
in in this situation, what probably happened is, uh, he
had to burn some of these personas because he was
on the run the entire time. It's that classic twist
in the movie when the nosy neighbor is snooping around
in the suspicious German Man's house when he's off, you know,
(26:30):
going to the grocery store and finds a drawer with
like six different passports and you know, all with different names,
and that's sort of like the aha moment um. But
that was real, and I'm sure he had, you know,
things like um uh valuables that he had smuggled out
as well that he was living on. You know, you
picture like like loose diamonds or something like that. Right. Yeah,
a lot of those guys were supported by things that
(26:53):
they had stolen from their victims during the course of
the war, or things they made off with from the
state as as the regime was collapsing. But here we are,
so let's foot aside fiction for a second. Real life
nineteen forty nine to nineteen seventy nine, under under various personas,
(27:14):
Joseph Mangla was in South America and multiple countries for
three decades. What the hell was he getting up to
down there? According to controversial claims by some historians, one
of whom will examine in depth, Manglais never stopped his
experiments with twins. Specifically. At this point, we introduced an
(27:36):
Argentine historian named Jorge Camerassa. Joge Camerasa is a specialist
in the post war Nazi flight to South America, and
he spent a lot of time tracy these individuals activities,
putting the pieces of the puzzle together right, hunting down
(27:58):
a person who didn't want to be fat, right, proving
the ghost was real. This war criminals life across this
continent is detailed by Camarasa in his book Manglais the
Angel of Death in South America. And in this book,
this guy made a tremendous splash when he said Manglais
did continue his experiments, specifically in Candido Goodoy and specifically
(28:22):
with twins. He is convinced that by the nineteen sixties
Manglais somehow cracked the code to creating twins, and he
used his knowledge to alter, permanently alter something about the
population of Candido. In his specific quote, he says, I
think Candido Goodoy may have been manglais laboratory where he
(28:45):
finally managed to fulfill his dreams of creating a master race.
A blonde haired, blue eyed arians. So the big question,
first question we have to have here is what is
this guy basing his claim on? And then secondly is
I hate I hate that we have to mention this.
What we do is he just trying to sell a book.
(29:05):
That's a question that comes up a lot with these
kinds of stories, and we're not casting and we're not
casting aspersion on him right now. It's just it's an
understandable question, and it's one that his critics, uh will
also mention, and we'll meet them in a few minutes.
But right now, the most interesting part about his claim
(29:27):
is that residents of Candido Goody appear to verify it.
They appear to they at least say that Mangala was there. Yeah,
they say that he visited numerous times in the nineteen
sixties and when he showed up, he was essentially a doctor,
but a veterinarian. So he would show up and he
(29:49):
would offer medical treatment, you know, for animals and for
women in the town. As this uh, you know, veterinarian
a bit strange, and you can you can see the
pieces kind of fitting together if you're hearing these as
anecdotes from people who live there. Right, Let's just imagine
(30:09):
you're the author and you're trying to research as much
as this as you can. And there are local legends
that this guy was definitely in town, and he, you know,
was this character when he was here. Um, you can imagine,
just as you said, Ben, that you believe at least
that your beliefs then are correct, or at least it
would assist in that. And there's one resident there. A
(30:33):
person's name is Olosi Oloisi perhaps Finkler. Uh. This person
is a farmer and and this is a quote about mangle.
He asked about illnesses we had among our animals and
told us not to worry. He could cure them. He
appeared a cultured and dignified man. Isn't that interesting that
(30:56):
that that I can cure I can cure this thing.
It reminds me of the cult discussion. You know, a
cow is not so different biologically from a woman, Right,
that's what that's the kind of reasoning, just to show
how creepy it is. Um. But didn't he have some
practical knowledge of livestock and he was doing some functional
(31:16):
good like they had t B And he gave them
some kind of vaccine like he just kind of like
helped them or was it all just wild you know,
medical quackery. Well, let's go to another quote from Leonardo Bouffler.
There's also a farmer in the area and says, yeah, Mentel,
it was visiting them under a guy under the guys
of being a veterinarian. Boofler says, quote, he went from
(31:38):
farm to farm, checking the animals. He checked them for
TV and injected those that were infected. He also said
he could carry out artificial insemination of cows and humans,
which we thought impossible, as in those days it was
unheard of. So even if we put aside the larger
theory that he was actively creating twins in this small environment, uh,
(32:03):
it's already very disturbing the way that this this dude
is infiltrating this community by posing as a useful, helpful
force a veterinarian, and then you leveraging that somehow to
gain access to the humans, to their bodies and and
too participate somehow in observing or influencing their reproductive process
(32:30):
the same way he would with livestock. That is messed up. Man.
If these accounts are true, Like if if these uh,
these folks actually identified you know, this person, this guy,
whoever his name was at the time as Manglais, and
Camerassa traces Manglais path and he claims that this guy, first,
(32:51):
like we said, went to Paraguay, to another German enclave
called Colonius Anitas, and then from there in nine he
started making regular trips, the historian says, to the German
community just over the border in Brazil Candido. Goodoy. But
(33:12):
if you look at if you look at research, because
a lot of people have been involved in trying to
figure this out, not just the twin thing, but also
this Nazis association. So you'll see local historians, local doctors,
local mayors or former mayors all have all have their
different takes on this, down to the local historian who
(33:32):
runs the museum, which you'll you'll meet him in a second.
But let's let's meet town doctor, former town doctor, a
Nincia Flores da Silva. He set off to solve the
mystery of the Candido twins, and he interviewed hundreds of people,
and does Silva one moment notices something odd in a
(33:55):
lot of these conversations. There's a name that keeps coming
up a mysteri es medic slash veterinarian who called himself
Rudolph Weiss. That's right, and Na Silva had this to
say about it. He talks about the testimonies that he collected, um,
where they were looking through the names of women who
were treated by this Rudolph Weis. Um. It seemed that
(34:19):
he was some sort of rural medic who would go
from house to house and he would, you know, help
women with various conditions, including things like vera coast veins,
which he claimed to have some sort of cure, all
that he carried around in a bottle, or these tablets
that he would bring with him. Um. He would also
occasionally do dental work UM. And of the most important
(34:41):
detail everyone remembers he would always take a blood sample,
which is odd if you're just doing work on somebody,
that's not really part of the equation, right. Yeah. And
it's weird because this same doctor was interviewed by the
BBC and gave a very different quote. But it's but
(35:03):
specifically he is saying, definitely mangle Ais was here, like
for sure he was here, but I don't think he
experimented on anybody. So it's it's just very strange because
you know, we're not describing experimentation. We're describing perhaps a
doctor helping out in some way. We're also describing observation
(35:25):
exactly observation at the very least, right, So this this
leads us to the next twist in our journey. Could
this be true? Could this theory, this conspiracy theory be true.
We are going to tell you the definitive answer after
a word from our sponsors, and we've returned side notes.
(35:54):
Long time listeners, you know that it's it's somewhat rare
for us to go. Yes, we have the answer and
we'll get to it. So we're we're not fooling with you,
no smoke. We do know the answer right now. Most
experts will not agree with the claims of the historian Camerassa.
We want to introduce to you a dcor Ursula Matte
(36:18):
of the medical genetics unit at Porto Allegra Hospital in Brazil.
She and her colleagues reject any notion whatsoever that Mangola
was responsible for this phenomenon, and they they put the
work in. Her team went there during they wanted to
(36:39):
investigate the reports of higher than average number of twin births,
and they found it was legit. They found a ton
of twins. They did blood test on seventeen and the
twenty two pairs of twins, about half of those pairs
were identical twins. And Mate says the paraphrasing for here.
(37:00):
But Mate says, look, you don't need a mad scientist
to explain this and this time period. Remember that's the
one in ten births. Just to give some context there,
and she goes on to say, quote, even though we
could not find a definitive explanation for this higher incidence,
the existence of other twin towns around the world, most
(37:22):
of them in remote, isolated areas with high levels of inbreeding,
just as in sal Pedro, shows that external influence is
not needed for this to happen. Yeah, So for her,
the primary issues are two fold, and there's not a
Nazi involved. It's isolation and inbreeding, and this allows ordinarily
(37:43):
recessive trait or quality to flourish. And she's careful to
note that experts still, as we said, do not fully
understand the entirety of the mechanisms that are involved in
the creation of twins. But she says it's extremely difficult
to think that Angela would have known about this kind
of stuff in the late nineties sixties. This would have
(38:05):
been sci fi level technology for him to understand this,
or for him to be able to not only fully
understand that mechanism, but to somehow alter it or set
it into motion. Because what she says, our real culprit
here is not the Angel of Death in her opinion,
it is something that is today understood as the Founder effect,
(38:28):
which is a cool name for a dangerous thing, and
just as a callback here. Remember we stated that only
somewhere between eight and twenty families founded this, this village,
the city, the place, you know, this place, right. Yeah.
After that initial eight families, there were more that came,
but they were again from the same area of Germany
(38:49):
that is also known for its higher than average number
of twins, So people sharing the same genetic history. First, uh,
several large families, like eight large families come and then
more families come from the same area and this becomes
the kernel of this settlement. So we're saying, is relatively
(39:12):
homogeneous population. In the world of genetics, that's a bad
thing often, Uh. Founder effect describes a loss in genetic
variation that happens when you take a sample of organisms
from a larger population, very small sample, and then you
put them somewhere else and don't let them interact with
other organisms, and you just sort of see what happens
(39:35):
as they their genes bounce around each other in this
sort of biological version of a bottle episode a television Right,
we all know what a bottle episode is and always
reminds me of that scene in The Lion King where
Scar accuses some character of coming from the shallow end
of the gene pool. Yeah, and stop ad at all. Yeah,
(39:58):
in a in a bottle episode is the thing where
your characters are stuck somewhere and they can't really go anywhere.
They just sort of bounce off each other genetically. That's
what's happening. The Founder effect, And what this means is
this is actually fascinating and I believe it will play
a big role in the coming era of space travel.
(40:19):
When you have a new population that is experiencing Founders effect,
their lack of genetic diversity can create over time something
distinct and different from that original larger population. And this
is happening. This has happened around the world. You can
(40:41):
find examples of this in the most extreme cases, which
um that would have to happen over a long period
of time and probably with a lot of catastrophes along
the way. In the most extreme cases, founders effect could
lead to speciation at and later evolution of a new species.
(41:02):
Why is this interesting for space travel because it's a
long way to Mars. We're talking about long distances, right,
And if you build an arc ship and people are
living and reproducing on it instead of you know, in
some sort of stat of suspended animation, then that could
also lead to speciation. You could you know, it's quite
(41:24):
possible that you could arrive on a planet that have
been founded or you know, infiltrated by humans long ago,
and you wouldn't quite recognize the humans that you found
when you landed. That's amazing, Yes, ben Mars travel, it's
the new Galapagos. There we are. Oh that's good, but
(41:46):
a T shirt. Yes, but this is I mean that
that still feels like the realm of science fiction. But
we know that founders effect could very easily apply to
future space colonists. And you can see the early stages
of founders effects in Brazil's Twin Town. So far, neither
(42:09):
the historian Camerassa, nor any other adherent of the Mangalais
theory has been able to prove that Mangalais actually conducted experiments.
People have only been able to prove he came to
the place, he visited on a regular basis. He pretended
to be a veterinarian. He did treat animals, and he
probably did it as a way to gain access to
(42:31):
the human population, a way to gain trust. So back
to Dr Mante, Right, that's one of the big questions
a lot of us have listening today. What about the DNA, Right,
we can do that now. So she conducted a series
of DNA tests on about thirty families with a team.
She had a team of twenty researchers and they've been
(42:53):
working on that since two thousand and nine. And they
found a specific gene in the population that appears they're carefully,
they phrase it carefully. They say it appears more frequently
in mothers of twins than in those without than the
mothers without twins. So you can't so they do now
(43:14):
they can have a at least a partial predictor. But
she notes a couple other things that bust the Manglais
theory because she says the prevalence of twin births, like
they went back through church records and stuff, and she
says the prevalence of twin births dates back to the
(43:34):
nineteen thirties, dates back probably even earlier. It's years and
years before Mangalais would have ever been on the scene.
And then they also, to your point, Matt, because I
think I think this is one that was a really
popular theory for a while, they also analyzed the water. Yeah,
and they found absolutely no abnormalities within the water. No
(43:58):
no specific mineral all know, anything, no chemicals that were
being leached for some reason or another, or elements. It
was just it was pretty good water. Uh. So that
was two thousand nine, so they've they've started studying into
then they're studying again two thousand nine. I believe the
(44:21):
paper that I looked into, at least the abstract of it,
was released or published in two thousand eleven. And you
can read it if you're if you're so inclined, Yeah, yeah,
and it it is. It is fascinating because there is something,
you know, no disrespect to the population in this area,
there is some there's something extraordinary and and an odd
(44:43):
unusual occurring there. Uh. The residents of the residence of
Candido Goody today continue to create an abnormally high number
of twins. The twin birth rate is real, it continues,
and every now and again an expert, a journalist, tourists,
just the one curious will visit to experience this mystery
(45:05):
firsthand and for the record. In general, the residents are
happy to you know, allow you to take a picture
with him and so on. Just be very careful, remember,
please remember, always be respectful and if you are walking
up to some people you don't know in a country
you are not familiar with, ask permission before you take
(45:25):
a photo. It is it can very easily become a
violation of uh several taboos or more's. In fact, you
can be attacked sometimes, especially if you're taking photos of children, right,
So ask in a respectful manner and if they're cool
with it, then yes, you can get the photo. Due
to its macab associations, that theory about Joseph Mangle, the
(45:50):
idea that he somehow had hidden science and affected the
local population, that theory is probably going to continue, even
though it's incredibly unlie that he was responsible for this phenomenon.
It's just it helps people sell books, it helps with tourism. There,
there are reasons people would want to propagate this legend,
(46:12):
and he very likely did roll through there and definitely visited, yeah,
more than once. He was there and and his he
was probably very interested in the town and wanted to
stick around, but it was probably fearful of being caught.
And it goes back to that um that doctor's quote
about I don't think he experimented on people, because in
(46:34):
order to do that, he would be giving himself away,
and in many aspects, not necessarily, he wouldn't have to
say I'm Dr Mangles, but he would by by doing
some kind of invasive experimentation there, you're he would almost
like be letting his guard down, I would say, or
letting a veil up. You have to wonder what you
(46:54):
do with the blood though, which out of context is
a really weird sentence to say. But you're right, right,
that's that's a big question, like would he have risked
exposing himself because he was careful He died under a
different name in peaceful circumstances and didn't have and never
saw a day in court. So it's likely given what
(47:17):
we know about him, that he would have known just
how extraordinarily rare this population was, It would have been
fascinated by it. He probably would have returned. You know,
he was observing, he was paying attention. We don't know
what conclusions he was drawing, or if he did have
any aims for experimentation, because, like you said, Matt I
(47:40):
noticed this too. It is not as if he could
have published a paper on his research, right because because
any German in South America at this time publishing a
paper on research and twins uh, right there. But you
also have to you also have to imagine, like I mean,
(48:01):
his fascination with this from the onset you know, bordered
on obsession, and he did so many experiments they were
just not rooted in anything but his own morbid curiosity.
It would say, I mean, he had a goal, But
there is part of me that thinks you don't really
lose that drive, you know, when you get older. If anything,
(48:22):
like he's probably bored and like you know, just kind
of crawling out of his skin. God, horrible expression there
for him. Um, but maybe he just you know, wanted
to keep things interesting and then did you know, do
a couple on the low down, because I mean, let's
listen to lie. This guy is a mass murderer. He's
a psychopath, you know, I mean in my in my opinion. Yeah,
(48:45):
hey Ben, I want to leave the door open just
a little bit, if that's okay with this one. All
I want to mention is that there there was a
BBC small piece put out in where UH photo journalist
video jurnalists traveled there, interviewed several people, including the mayor,
including that doctor we mentioned UH and the historian. And
(49:10):
there's still genetic testing occurring. It's not as though the
study just you know, absolutely stamped it, you know, conclusive,
We're done. It definitely shows that, like there's a very
high likelihood that that the founder effect is you know,
explains what is occurring there and what has occurred there.
But they're still the community itself is still very much
(49:33):
interested in finding more about what's happening and their you know,
their own genes and their ancestry and why so their geneticist.
They're likely right now at least as like Augusto Santos,
who is you know, they're taking the DNA kits that
you may have seen before with like the twenty three
and me using saliva to further test the twin populations
(49:55):
and the mothers just to find out I guess, just
more about what heck is happening and why. Yeah, and
this is important too because the founders effect, Whi's probably
what this is. The found the founder's effect can have
series compose serious dangers to a population as time continues.
(50:16):
There are you know, higher rates of certain diseases or
medical conditions in isolated populations across the planet. So when
you are researching these conditions, in researching this phenomena in
these communities, you have a very real possibility of being
able to help address genetic issues down the line. And
(50:40):
this this is not just important, I would argue for
these communities, of course, it is a huge priority there,
but it's also important for the human species overall. So
these geneticists are doing incredibly important work. And I know,
you know, I know a lot of us probably weren't
expecting to talk about space travel in this episode of
all phases, but it will. Like the larger point is
(51:03):
that this research is going to arm the human species
with with some profound knowledge that will come in handy
in the coming millennia. And you know, that's that's way
out there. I know that's that's very much a tangent.
But what's happening now, Just like you said, Matt is
important to the present, the past, and the future. And
(51:26):
we're also fortunate that we have research capable of dispelling
this mystery because one of the one of the things
that always bugs me is like the the glamorization of
you know, various Nazi ideas through conspiracy, you know. And
what's what's great about this story is that we found good,
(51:50):
diligent scientists one out over mad scientists. Unless that is,
you have proof, you have proof that Mangles did something
that's somehow further accelerated the production of twins. If you do,
we'd love to hear it. Let us know. We try
to be easy to find online. That's right. You can
find us in the usual Internet locations. Of note, we
(52:13):
are on Facebook, we are on Twitter, both of those
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Conspiracy Stuff Show and Matt correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe we are also conspiracy stuff on YouTube. Yes,
that is correct. Check it out, pull up your oculus
and watch us in three D a slash in a
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(52:35):
It's fun. I just tried it. It's weird as heck,
but you can watch Ben and he's like forty ft
tall looming over to you, and uh, I don't know
it's worth it. Try it out, see how it plays
for you. I loved it so m yeah. YouTube definitely
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(52:57):
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(53:20):
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(54:36):
Know is a production of I heart Radio. For more
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Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called
me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer
Paul Mission controlled decond Most importantly, you are you. You
are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't
want you to know. After taking a very long hiatus
from this realm of topics, we are returning to the
(00:50):
world of the Nazis. The Nazi Party of Germany and
World War Two has become a source of many, many
proposed conspiracies and proven conspiracies as as we learn more
and more about the inner workings of of that regime.
(01:11):
And nowadays you know, we can we can say with
certitude certain statements that would have once been considered controversial
or conspiratorial, like now we can say it is common
knowledge that many Nazi officials and Nazi collaborators escaped to
South America in the aftermath of World War Two. It's
a genuine, vast conspiracy. You hear them called ratlines right,
(01:35):
thousands of people fled from Europe to Brazil, Chile, especially Argentina,
and as the world was trying to recover from the
atrocities of war, there were these investigators from places like
West Germany and Israel, and individuals who were tracking down Nazis,
sifting through rumors, trying to hunt these men who would
(01:58):
be ghost as. You want to learn more about that,
check out Operation Adessa, I think is the episode we
did on that topic. Specifically, we have a lot of
we have a lot of Nazi episodes because they did
a lot of terrible things. But the weird, weirdest part
here is when we're talking about the Nazis escaping to
South America. We're talking about a true thing, a real
(02:23):
event that went on for years, but we're also talking
about all the rumors that built off that, like the
idea that Adolf Hitler himself may have escaped. That's a
story for another day, but today's episode is when people
might not have heard of. It. Concerns the infamous Nazi doctor,
the so called Angel of Death, Joseph Mangel, and the
(02:47):
conspiracy theory that he continued his horrific experiments long after
the end of World War two today's episode, fellow conspiracy realist,
What is Candido good Oi and what the hell is
happening there? Yes, here are the facts. It's a city
you probably haven't heard of unless you've heard of this
(03:09):
story or unless you have visited a specific part of Brazil.
Rio Grande do sul So. Candido Goody is a city
in Rio grand do soul Brazil. Um. It's a pretty
small place, populations somewhere between six thousand and only seven thousand, uh.
(03:29):
And you can find its close to the Argentine border. Um.
And there you'll find a small settlement in the city
called Lena sal Pedro. And that population is even smaller,
with just a few hundred people there. Um. It was
founded by an original population of only eight families back
in nineteen eighteen. In their defense, these are big families. Yes,
(03:53):
that's right, that's right. And uh, if you don't mind, Ben,
I'd like to pull in a quote here. There's a
video that the BBC put out in UH that I
won't tell you the name of right now, but there's
a quote from an historian we're going to meet later
more in depth in this episode. But you're just according
to him, he says, there are like a slightly higher
(04:17):
number there, I think fifteen to twenty families, but again
it's like the original eight families to you know, maybe
up to twenty. Essentially just putting that out there as
like we're pretty we're pretty sure it was a very
few number of actual families that founded this place, right,
and then later later immigrants would come. But something unusual
(04:39):
was happening because although Candido Goodoy was colonized by the
Spanish forces, the area now is primarily inhabited by descendants
a little bit from Poland, but primarily German immigrants. And
what's more, these immigrants mostly originate from a single region
(05:01):
of Germany, a place called Hunsruck, which is also known
for a weird tendency amongst amongst its population. So if
you go to Lenha sal Pedro, uh, you'll immediately notice
some odd things. First, people aren't speaking Portuguese as often
(05:23):
as you would think. They tend to speak a German dialect. Secondly,
you're gonna see a lot of people who look alike
because there are a ton of twins in lin haa
sal Pedro, a a lot quite a few. Uh. It
is noticeable when you walk through town, and for years
scientists have struggled and failed to discover why as many
(05:46):
as one in five pregnancies in this area results in twins,
most of them, according to the legends, being blonde haired
and blue eyed. Very curious, Um, so why how many
are we talking? Um? The birth rate stats for twins
(06:07):
in Candido is ten percent, which is significantly higher than
in the rest of the state, where it's only about
one point eight percent UM. So this is one of
the highest what you'd call twinning rates in the entire world.
And this is a noteworthy pattern, um, at least during
(06:27):
the early twentieth century, when the first immigrants started to
set a precedent arriving um with seventeen sets of twins, um,
you know amongst them. Uh. And if you visit the
area today, you might still notice that it is, like
you said, Ben, like instantly, something that's remarkable. How many,
just how many sets of twins you'll see just on
(06:49):
a given day looking around. Well, you think about that,
that's one in ten kids that are born are kids
instead of kid. Yeah, that's crazy. And the stats can
you know, you'll as suite listeners, of course you clocked
that that rate of twins was given as ten percent,
(07:10):
but then scientists also projected one in five pregnancies. We're
we're aware of this discrepancy. It's coming from a couple
of different sources. And of course birth rates do change
or they vary over time. But yeah, yeah, it's a
lot of twins. Yeah, that ten percent, I believe in
a particular study we looked at was between nine. Well
(07:34):
we're also talking about ten percent of a very small population,
which makes it extra noticeable when you walk in. It's like, wow,
they're everywhere, and you know, we know, um what a mystery.
Twins still continue to be as to what leads to them,
as to like their ability to communicate differently, you know,
I mean there are there's something that you know, if
(07:55):
you if you know anybody who has a twin sibling
they claim to and you know, I mean honestly, you
can't not believe them have this uh kind of almost
telekinetic ability or this ability to kind of like feel
things about each other from far distances for example, um,
or you know, to be able to almost like speak
without speaking to each other. It's very very interesting and
(08:18):
not a lot of note about that, uh, and that
totally applies to this case only this is an extra
weird kind of twist, like why so many twins in
this small area? And one of the theories is quite disturbing. Yeah,
and I have I I do just spoiler alert have
what I feel like is the explanation here. But let's
(08:38):
let's let's walk through the crazy stuff. I want to
step back because there was something I wanted to point out. So, yeah,
this is extraordinary because of the birth rates in the
number of twins relative to the population. But for comparison,
there are places that have, you know, in absolute numbers,
much higher tendencies towards the production of twins, and Nigeria
(09:02):
actually leads the world in this regard. Also, I always,
I always thought it would be cool to have a twin,
but I think for most of us the concept is
incredibly alien. And that's why singles, right, even if you
have siblings, you're a single, right in comparison to twins.
That's why singles, like the majority of us in the
(09:23):
audience today, are always fascinated by this and then the
rumors of this connection, this idea of clara voyance, this
idea of unspoken communication. We're not the only people fascinated
by this. Mangolia was also fascinated by the idea of twins,
and over the past few decades, various scientists, scholars, and
(09:46):
historians have attempted to figure out just what causes this place,
this tiny spot in in Brazil to produce so many twins.
Locals have guests about this too, because you know, they're
the ones directly affected, so they might say that they
have a couple of different theories. Uh. One of the
most interesting I think is is almost a horror movie trope.
(10:08):
Is something in the water, yeah, or or it's you know,
a blessing in a weird way, it's a curse or
a blessing, depending on how you look at it, if
it were true, right, and just the concept that there's
minerals or something about the pH or some specific thing
about the rock formations where the water you know, the
tributaries are and everything where specifically gets to that one area. Um,
(10:30):
there are a few, right, yes, exactly, you know, and
and that's like we said, lore that that was a
you know, a legend essentially, and that there are a
few others that you know, maybe specific groups of locals
had or rumors, but most of it had to do with. Honestly,
(10:51):
the most prominent one I saw there was water or
the one we're about to mention, right, there is another
theory and it's one that uh, it's one that's led
people around the world on a very strange exploration down
a very odd rabbit hole. One of the most disturbing
theories to explain the twins of Candido Godoy is the
(11:14):
idea that the infamous Nazi Joseph Mangles, the Angel of
Death never really stopped his experiments. He just moved shop
from Germany to Brazil. We're gonna pause for a word
from our sponsor and then we'll dive into this story ourselves.
(11:37):
Here's where it gets crazy, the connection when we say
we're talking about this Angel of Death. First off, we
have to learn a little bit more about who he
is and what his what his weird deal with human
experimentation and twins actually was. Yeah, I mean there's accounts
(11:58):
I've read. You know, he was the notorious um presence
at the offloading sites where you know, these undesirable races
like the Jewish race, Um, the Roman people and LGBTQ population,
for example, were a rounded up in these cattle cars
on the rail lines and then unloaded at these concentration camps,
(12:19):
and he would kind of lurk around these places, you know,
with his associates. And um, I read an account of
of of a family mother and to twin daughters, and
they heard, you know, one of the Naziss officers say
twins and and and she looks at the mother and
says twins, and she goes yes, is that good? And
(12:41):
he goes yes, and then takes them away and they
never see their mother again. Um. And that's common because
he was there like kind of trolling for twins, because
that was a big part of something he was fascinated with.
He thought was what it would add to the efficacy
of the bizarre experiments that he was doing that included
everything from disfigurement, artificial insemination. Um, what out spin? I
(13:04):
mean it's you know, maiming, just literally like trying to
see how the human body would react to the most horrible,
despicable conditions. Yeah, I would just say likely. That comes
from the account of Ava Moses core who who told
her entire story in a series of writing and writings
and documentaries, and she says that specifically the the twins
(13:28):
were all taken and placed in a separate barracks away
from everybody else, and they were separated by what Manglai
considered their gender at the time, girls and boys. And
they had a very rigid schedule that they kept too.
According to Ava, on Monday's, Wednesdays and Fridays, they would
have to all walk over to a building that was
(13:50):
called Auschwitz one, and there Mingla and other doctors and
others just working for them would measure them essentially, run
run diagnostic tests on their bodies, and do comparisons between
the two twins. Then on Tuesday's, Thursdays and Saturdays, that's
(14:11):
when a lot of the experimentation would happen. Uh that
they called it the blood lab, or have at least
called it the blood lab. And there would be she said,
around thirty children in this one area. They would all
sit in chairs and if they would have their arms
strapped down and in one of their arms they would
have blood taken out for testing, and the other arm
(14:33):
they would have injections where who knows what's being put
into them, but they would get injections. A lot of
that has lost to history. Actually, the efficacy, I would
I think the important point we need to make here
is the distinction. This comes up when we talk about
uh Nazi war crimes as well as Unit thirty one
in Japan. There is a distinction here that needs to
(14:56):
be made between what would be considered human experimentation and
what would be considered torture. Uh. The methodology of a
lot of these so called scientists was unsound because their
aim was it had the patina of scientific rigor. But
(15:18):
these are war crimes, and a lot of the a
lot of the science that was derived from those activities
turns out not to be good, not not to be
super worthwhile. Uh. Yeah. For mainly the thing is that
people know about the twins. But while he, like many people,
was fascinated by twins, Uh, first off, he's a very
(15:41):
very bad person. He is in direct violation of things
like the hippocratic gowth do no harm right. He was
literally one of the people who would select folks to
go straight to the gas chambers or to be worked
to death or subjected to experiments. And all of his
under leans and all of his collaborators have been given
(16:02):
special instructions not just to find twins, but to find
to find people who were dwarves. Or little people, to
find people who are extraordinarily large or tall, anyone with
a unique what we would recognize as a hereditary trait
like hetero chromia, eyes of a slightly different color, or
(16:24):
a club foot, or even polydactyl people if those turned
up and extra fingers, we mean more than the usual
five per hand. Uh. And the reason when he had
these twins, the horrific things that he was doing to
them while right while the rest of their family is
also being tortured and put to death. Here Uh, these
(16:47):
these horrific things can the scope of them can be
found just in the following statistic. They pulled about three
thousand twins right over the course of May Galaize time
in Germany when he was in Auschwitz, and most of
those twins were children. Of those three thousand, only two
(17:09):
hundred survived, and and really in a very real way
against all lots. So this this guy, let me give
you his rationalization, I was doing this. So he was
doing this not just not just because he's a horrible person,
but also because Adolph Hitler had given him instructions to
(17:30):
figure out ways to increase the population of what he
considered to be the master race. A k a. The
Arians and Mangalais was researching twins because the logic here,
if logic existed, was the idea that if we can
figure out what creates twins, then we can go to
(17:51):
the people we want to reproduce and we can do
something to them. We can affect their biology such that
every birth they have will result in twins or heck,
you know triplets. Who knows though they were twin focused right,
and that if we can do that, we will essentially
be doubling our birth rate. That was their logic. It's
(18:13):
a two for one deal. I mean really, it is
just absolutely that Nazi efficiency that everything needs to kind
of serve a purpose and you don't have any waste
or whatever. And the thing that's most terrific to me
as well about these uh, you're absolutely right then, I
mean absolutely unsound science. And you really could just classify
his torturing is he would use one twin as like
(18:35):
the experiment subject and then use the other one as
a control. And if my understanding is correct, they would
often be made to watch each other be tortured. Yeah,
that's a that's horrifying. I I I want to bring
up something and this is a complete speculation on my part, guys,
but I just want to ask you what you think
about this. It is known that in the upper echelons
(18:58):
of the Nazi par there was a belief there's a
lot of magical thinking, and there there were some odd
beliefs there that I think may have also led to
a further fascination with twins, as in a possible connection
beyond the physical, if that makes sense. And I do.
(19:20):
I do wonder if anything, if any beliefs they're led
to this fascination as well, because you know, you'll notice
we're not talking about them experimenting on the mothers, the
people who birthed twins, right, We're not talking about a
focus on the fathers who who you know, created twins.
It's it's on the twins themselves. And I just I
(19:42):
just wonder, and again this is me just thinking aloud.
I wonder if there was something more to that fascination. Well,
there's a lot of folklore in in Germany surrounding twins,
like the Alsies, which were a pair of twin brother
odds that were warships by Germanic people's and and survives
(20:05):
and and we know at a time and again, this
is just a line of we're just freestyling the speculation here,
but we know that we know that there was a
movement in the party to generate a new kind of religion,
right or to you know, replace the concept of Christianity
that was popular. So there there could be some symbolism
(20:28):
motivating people in that way. But long story short, before
you spent too much time in Manley in Germany. UH.
Spoiler alert, and this is a good spoiler. UH. Nazi
Germany lost World War two for a number of reasons.
If you haven't caught up with that one. Yes, that
Nazi Germany lost World War two, and the people in
(20:51):
power found themselves desperate to escape justice uh, and to
escape the various forces that wanted to hold to account
for their crimes. So the war draws to a closed
Germany is falling. Mangelad travels to South America nineteen forty nine.
In July, he sails to Argentina, and he has the
(21:12):
help of the rat Line. Rat Line and network of
other former SS members and Nazi sympathizers, many of whom
were associated with the Church. They were getting these people
new identities, they were giving them supplies from you know,
all the all the stuff they stole during World War
two was providing funding for these folks, and so for
(21:34):
about a decade, the Angel of Death is living in
and around Buenos Aires, just under an assumed name, and
the heat hasn't caught up to him. But when he
starts to feel something shift in the wind, he flees
first to Paraguay and then to Brazil. And when he
reaches Brazil, it's nineteen sixty. If you're interested in a
(22:00):
remarkably historically inaccurate but relatively interesting show to watch around
this type of stuff, there's a show called Hunters starring
Al Pacino, where it's like this very fictionalized almost like
ragtag band of like sort of you know, uh an
a team kind of situation where it's these Nazi hunters
(22:21):
they're looking for, you know, war criminal Nazis, and there
are things in it that are based on reality, but
there it's absolutely overblown and embellished in Hollywood eyes. I
believe Ben coined that last episode. Um, but it's it's
worth a watch. It's it's not great, but it's it's interesting,
much like the is it the Arrogant Bastards, which it's
(22:42):
very quick, it's Quentin Tarantino style. I would say I
was surprised watching Hunters. I was surprised to learn that
he wasn't the one making it right. I was also
surprised with kind of how far they go down some
of the more uncomfortable territories of this type of thing.
UM almost made it a little unpleasant at times, it
being such a kind of schlocky, grandiose, uh, you know,
(23:05):
kind of revisionist history type show. But I leave it
to you to decide what you think of the show Hunters,
and let us know. And this is exactly what Mangola
was going through. Um. He was a wanted man. He
was on the lamb. He was being hunted by officials
from West Germany and Israel who were, you know, in
cooperation in this endeavor, and that included people like Simon Wisenthal.
(23:30):
All of these individuals wanted to bring him and those
like him to justice for his absolutely despicable war crimes.
Because let's make no mistake, that is what these were.
He was holding people against their will and performing you know,
inhumane experiments on them. Um and and as you said,
been resulting in thousands and thousands of deaths. UM. But
(23:53):
Mangola was a smart guy. Um. You know, he knew
what he was doing in terms of you know, you know,
plotting his escape. Um, he had he had the right
idea in the nineteen help That's what I'm saying. He
worked with the right people exactly. And then there's there
was this network that was established, these rat lines, like
you said, Um, and many did get caught, but many escaped.
(24:15):
And sort of that almost trope you see in a
lot of fiction about like the you know, the Nazi
war criminal, you know, pretending to be a mild mannered
old man living next door to you in the suburbs. Um.
I believe that happens as well. In The Marathon Man,
the character that does the played by Lawrence Olivier who
(24:35):
does the you know, dental torture that's a you know,
an escape Nazi war criminal were it's supposed to be. Um,
who I believe is also called the Angel of Death
if I'm not mistaken in the movie, it's not the
same Angel of Death, I don't believe, but that is
his nickname. UM. So he he assumes a false name,
Wolfgang Gerhard Uh and they don't find his true identity
(24:56):
until he dies by the way natural causes more or
less of a stroke. Uh in nineteen seventy nine, while
having a nice swim off the Brazilian coast and he drowns. Um.
But again, he's been masquerading as this wolf Wolfgang Gerhard
character and his true identity isn't determined when his remains
are exhumed and forced to be subject to forensic analysis. Yeah. Yeah,
(25:23):
so in a very real sense, he got away, and
they all they know is that there was a real
Wolfgang Gerhard. At some point that guy left the picture
and mangele it became him so well, and we know
that he had it. I think at least three names
(25:45):
or yeah, but but I know of three off the
top of my head. So he was definitely changing chameleon
ing movie. He was doing that out of necessity because
you don't, I mean, you do want to you do
want to have more than one. It's kind of like
doing a shell company, right, because each one will make
you more difficult to trace, but it also requires more
(26:08):
work on your part or for whomever's handling you. So
in in this situation, what probably happened is, uh, he
had to burn some of these personas because he was
on the run the entire time. It's that classic twist
in the movie when the nosy neighbor is snooping around
in the suspicious German Man's house when he's off, you know,
(26:30):
going to the grocery store and finds a drawer with
like six different passports and you know, all with different names,
and that's sort of like the aha moment um. But
that was real, and I'm sure he had, you know,
things like um uh valuables that he had smuggled out
as well that he was living on. You know, you
picture like like loose diamonds or something like that. Right. Yeah,
a lot of those guys were supported by things that
(26:53):
they had stolen from their victims during the course of
the war, or things they made off with from the
state as as the regime was collapsing. But here we are,
so let's foot aside fiction for a second. Real life
nineteen forty nine to nineteen seventy nine, under under various personas,
(27:14):
Joseph Mangla was in South America and multiple countries for
three decades. What the hell was he getting up to
down there? According to controversial claims by some historians, one
of whom will examine in depth, Manglais never stopped his
experiments with twins. Specifically. At this point, we introduced an
(27:36):
Argentine historian named Jorge Camerassa. Joge Camerasa is a specialist
in the post war Nazi flight to South America, and
he spent a lot of time tracy these individuals activities,
putting the pieces of the puzzle together right, hunting down
(27:58):
a person who didn't want to be fat, right, proving
the ghost was real. This war criminals life across this
continent is detailed by Camarasa in his book Manglais the
Angel of Death in South America. And in this book,
this guy made a tremendous splash when he said Manglais
did continue his experiments, specifically in Candido Goodoy and specifically
(28:22):
with twins. He is convinced that by the nineteen sixties
Manglais somehow cracked the code to creating twins, and he
used his knowledge to alter, permanently alter something about the
population of Candido. In his specific quote, he says, I
think Candido Goodoy may have been manglais laboratory where he
(28:45):
finally managed to fulfill his dreams of creating a master race.
A blonde haired, blue eyed arians. So the big question,
first question we have to have here is what is
this guy basing his claim on? And then secondly is
I hate I hate that we have to mention this.
What we do is he just trying to sell a book.
(29:05):
That's a question that comes up a lot with these
kinds of stories, and we're not casting and we're not
casting aspersion on him right now. It's just it's an
understandable question, and it's one that his critics, uh will
also mention, and we'll meet them in a few minutes.
But right now, the most interesting part about his claim
(29:27):
is that residents of Candido Goody appear to verify it.
They appear to they at least say that Mangala was there. Yeah,
they say that he visited numerous times in the nineteen
sixties and when he showed up, he was essentially a doctor,
but a veterinarian. So he would show up and he
(29:49):
would offer medical treatment, you know, for animals and for
women in the town. As this uh, you know, veterinarian
a bit strange, and you can you can see the
pieces kind of fitting together if you're hearing these as
anecdotes from people who live there. Right, Let's just imagine
(30:09):
you're the author and you're trying to research as much
as this as you can. And there are local legends
that this guy was definitely in town, and he, you know,
was this character when he was here. Um, you can imagine,
just as you said, Ben, that you believe at least
that your beliefs then are correct, or at least it
would assist in that. And there's one resident there. A
(30:33):
person's name is Olosi Oloisi perhaps Finkler. Uh. This person
is a farmer and and this is a quote about mangle.
He asked about illnesses we had among our animals and
told us not to worry. He could cure them. He
appeared a cultured and dignified man. Isn't that interesting that
(30:56):
that that I can cure I can cure this thing.
It reminds me of the cult discussion. You know, a
cow is not so different biologically from a woman, Right,
that's what that's the kind of reasoning, just to show
how creepy it is. Um. But didn't he have some
practical knowledge of livestock and he was doing some functional
(31:16):
good like they had t B And he gave them
some kind of vaccine like he just kind of like
helped them or was it all just wild you know,
medical quackery. Well, let's go to another quote from Leonardo Bouffler.
There's also a farmer in the area and says, yeah, Mentel,
it was visiting them under a guy under the guys
of being a veterinarian. Boofler says, quote, he went from
(31:38):
farm to farm, checking the animals. He checked them for
TV and injected those that were infected. He also said
he could carry out artificial insemination of cows and humans,
which we thought impossible, as in those days it was
unheard of. So even if we put aside the larger
theory that he was actively creating twins in this small environment, uh,
(32:03):
it's already very disturbing the way that this this dude
is infiltrating this community by posing as a useful, helpful
force a veterinarian, and then you leveraging that somehow to
gain access to the humans, to their bodies and and
too participate somehow in observing or influencing their reproductive process
(32:30):
the same way he would with livestock. That is messed up. Man.
If these accounts are true, Like if if these uh,
these folks actually identified you know, this person, this guy,
whoever his name was at the time as Manglais, and
Camerassa traces Manglais path and he claims that this guy, first,
(32:51):
like we said, went to Paraguay, to another German enclave
called Colonius Anitas, and then from there in nine he
started making regular trips, the historian says, to the German
community just over the border in Brazil Candido. Goodoy. But
(33:12):
if you look at if you look at research, because
a lot of people have been involved in trying to
figure this out, not just the twin thing, but also
this Nazis association. So you'll see local historians, local doctors,
local mayors or former mayors all have all have their
different takes on this, down to the local historian who
(33:32):
runs the museum, which you'll you'll meet him in a second.
But let's let's meet town doctor, former town doctor, a
Nincia Flores da Silva. He set off to solve the
mystery of the Candido twins, and he interviewed hundreds of people,
and does Silva one moment notices something odd in a
(33:55):
lot of these conversations. There's a name that keeps coming
up a mysteri es medic slash veterinarian who called himself
Rudolph Weiss. That's right, and Na Silva had this to
say about it. He talks about the testimonies that he collected, um,
where they were looking through the names of women who
were treated by this Rudolph Weis. Um. It seemed that
(34:19):
he was some sort of rural medic who would go
from house to house and he would, you know, help
women with various conditions, including things like vera coast veins,
which he claimed to have some sort of cure, all
that he carried around in a bottle, or these tablets
that he would bring with him. Um. He would also
occasionally do dental work UM. And of the most important
(34:41):
detail everyone remembers he would always take a blood sample,
which is odd if you're just doing work on somebody,
that's not really part of the equation, right. Yeah. And
it's weird because this same doctor was interviewed by the
BBC and gave a very different quote. But it's but
(35:03):
specifically he is saying, definitely mangle Ais was here, like
for sure he was here, but I don't think he
experimented on anybody. So it's it's just very strange because
you know, we're not describing experimentation. We're describing perhaps a
doctor helping out in some way. We're also describing observation
(35:25):
exactly observation at the very least, right, So this this
leads us to the next twist in our journey. Could
this be true? Could this theory, this conspiracy theory be true.
We are going to tell you the definitive answer after
a word from our sponsors, and we've returned side notes.
(35:54):
Long time listeners, you know that it's it's somewhat rare
for us to go. Yes, we have the answer and
we'll get to it. So we're we're not fooling with you,
no smoke. We do know the answer right now. Most
experts will not agree with the claims of the historian Camerassa.
We want to introduce to you a dcor Ursula Matte
(36:18):
of the medical genetics unit at Porto Allegra Hospital in Brazil.
She and her colleagues reject any notion whatsoever that Mangola
was responsible for this phenomenon, and they they put the
work in. Her team went there during they wanted to
(36:39):
investigate the reports of higher than average number of twin births,
and they found it was legit. They found a ton
of twins. They did blood test on seventeen and the
twenty two pairs of twins, about half of those pairs
were identical twins. And Mate says the paraphrasing for here.
(37:00):
But Mate says, look, you don't need a mad scientist
to explain this and this time period. Remember that's the
one in ten births. Just to give some context there,
and she goes on to say, quote, even though we
could not find a definitive explanation for this higher incidence,
the existence of other twin towns around the world, most
(37:22):
of them in remote, isolated areas with high levels of inbreeding,
just as in sal Pedro, shows that external influence is
not needed for this to happen. Yeah, So for her,
the primary issues are two fold, and there's not a
Nazi involved. It's isolation and inbreeding, and this allows ordinarily
(37:43):
recessive trait or quality to flourish. And she's careful to
note that experts still, as we said, do not fully
understand the entirety of the mechanisms that are involved in
the creation of twins. But she says it's extremely difficult
to think that Angela would have known about this kind
of stuff in the late nineties sixties. This would have
(38:05):
been sci fi level technology for him to understand this,
or for him to be able to not only fully
understand that mechanism, but to somehow alter it or set
it into motion. Because what she says, our real culprit
here is not the Angel of Death in her opinion,
it is something that is today understood as the Founder effect,
(38:28):
which is a cool name for a dangerous thing, and
just as a callback here. Remember we stated that only
somewhere between eight and twenty families founded this, this village,
the city, the place, you know, this place, right. Yeah.
After that initial eight families, there were more that came,
but they were again from the same area of Germany
(38:49):
that is also known for its higher than average number
of twins, So people sharing the same genetic history. First, uh,
several large families, like eight large families come and then
more families come from the same area and this becomes
the kernel of this settlement. So we're saying, is relatively
(39:12):
homogeneous population. In the world of genetics, that's a bad
thing often, Uh. Founder effect describes a loss in genetic
variation that happens when you take a sample of organisms
from a larger population, very small sample, and then you
put them somewhere else and don't let them interact with
other organisms, and you just sort of see what happens
(39:35):
as they their genes bounce around each other in this
sort of biological version of a bottle episode a television Right,
we all know what a bottle episode is and always
reminds me of that scene in The Lion King where
Scar accuses some character of coming from the shallow end
of the gene pool. Yeah, and stop ad at all. Yeah,
(39:58):
in a in a bottle episode is the thing where
your characters are stuck somewhere and they can't really go anywhere.
They just sort of bounce off each other genetically. That's
what's happening. The Founder effect, And what this means is
this is actually fascinating and I believe it will play
a big role in the coming era of space travel.
(40:19):
When you have a new population that is experiencing Founders effect,
their lack of genetic diversity can create over time something
distinct and different from that original larger population. And this
is happening. This has happened around the world. You can
(40:41):
find examples of this in the most extreme cases, which
um that would have to happen over a long period
of time and probably with a lot of catastrophes along
the way. In the most extreme cases, founders effect could
lead to speciation at and later evolution of a new species.
(41:02):
Why is this interesting for space travel because it's a
long way to Mars. We're talking about long distances, right,
And if you build an arc ship and people are
living and reproducing on it instead of you know, in
some sort of stat of suspended animation, then that could
also lead to speciation. You could you know, it's quite
(41:24):
possible that you could arrive on a planet that have
been founded or you know, infiltrated by humans long ago,
and you wouldn't quite recognize the humans that you found
when you landed. That's amazing, Yes, ben Mars travel, it's
the new Galapagos. There we are. Oh that's good, but
(41:46):
a T shirt. Yes, but this is I mean that
that still feels like the realm of science fiction. But
we know that founders effect could very easily apply to
future space colonists. And you can see the early stages
of founders effects in Brazil's Twin Town. So far, neither
(42:09):
the historian Camerassa, nor any other adherent of the Mangalais
theory has been able to prove that Mangalais actually conducted experiments.
People have only been able to prove he came to
the place, he visited on a regular basis. He pretended
to be a veterinarian. He did treat animals, and he
probably did it as a way to gain access to
(42:31):
the human population, a way to gain trust. So back
to Dr Mante, Right, that's one of the big questions
a lot of us have listening today. What about the DNA, Right,
we can do that now. So she conducted a series
of DNA tests on about thirty families with a team.
She had a team of twenty researchers and they've been
(42:53):
working on that since two thousand and nine. And they
found a specific gene in the population that appears they're carefully,
they phrase it carefully. They say it appears more frequently
in mothers of twins than in those without than the
mothers without twins. So you can't so they do now
(43:14):
they can have a at least a partial predictor. But
she notes a couple other things that bust the Manglais
theory because she says the prevalence of twin births, like
they went back through church records and stuff, and she
says the prevalence of twin births dates back to the
(43:34):
nineteen thirties, dates back probably even earlier. It's years and
years before Mangalais would have ever been on the scene.
And then they also, to your point, Matt, because I
think I think this is one that was a really
popular theory for a while, they also analyzed the water. Yeah,
and they found absolutely no abnormalities within the water. No
(43:58):
no specific mineral all know, anything, no chemicals that were
being leached for some reason or another, or elements. It
was just it was pretty good water. Uh. So that
was two thousand nine, so they've they've started studying into
then they're studying again two thousand nine. I believe the
(44:21):
paper that I looked into, at least the abstract of it,
was released or published in two thousand eleven. And you
can read it if you're if you're so inclined, Yeah, yeah,
and it it is. It is fascinating because there is something,
you know, no disrespect to the population in this area,
there is some there's something extraordinary and and an odd
(44:43):
unusual occurring there. Uh. The residents of the residence of
Candido Goody today continue to create an abnormally high number
of twins. The twin birth rate is real, it continues,
and every now and again an expert, a journalist, tourists,
just the one curious will visit to experience this mystery
(45:05):
firsthand and for the record. In general, the residents are
happy to you know, allow you to take a picture
with him and so on. Just be very careful, remember,
please remember, always be respectful and if you are walking
up to some people you don't know in a country
you are not familiar with, ask permission before you take
(45:25):
a photo. It is it can very easily become a
violation of uh several taboos or more's. In fact, you
can be attacked sometimes, especially if you're taking photos of children, right,
So ask in a respectful manner and if they're cool
with it, then yes, you can get the photo. Due
to its macab associations, that theory about Joseph Mangle, the
(45:50):
idea that he somehow had hidden science and affected the
local population, that theory is probably going to continue, even
though it's incredibly unlie that he was responsible for this phenomenon.
It's just it helps people sell books, it helps with tourism. There,
there are reasons people would want to propagate this legend,
(46:12):
and he very likely did roll through there and definitely visited, yeah,
more than once. He was there and and his he
was probably very interested in the town and wanted to
stick around, but it was probably fearful of being caught.
And it goes back to that um that doctor's quote
about I don't think he experimented on people, because in
(46:34):
order to do that, he would be giving himself away,
and in many aspects, not necessarily, he wouldn't have to
say I'm Dr Mangles, but he would by by doing
some kind of invasive experimentation there, you're he would almost
like be letting his guard down, I would say, or
letting a veil up. You have to wonder what you
(46:54):
do with the blood though, which out of context is
a really weird sentence to say. But you're right, right,
that's that's a big question, like would he have risked
exposing himself because he was careful He died under a
different name in peaceful circumstances and didn't have and never
saw a day in court. So it's likely given what
(47:17):
we know about him, that he would have known just
how extraordinarily rare this population was, It would have been
fascinated by it. He probably would have returned. You know,
he was observing, he was paying attention. We don't know
what conclusions he was drawing, or if he did have
any aims for experimentation, because, like you said, Matt I
(47:40):
noticed this too. It is not as if he could
have published a paper on his research, right because because
any German in South America at this time publishing a
paper on research and twins uh, right there. But you
also have to you also have to imagine, like I mean,
(48:01):
his fascination with this from the onset you know, bordered
on obsession, and he did so many experiments they were
just not rooted in anything but his own morbid curiosity.
It would say, I mean, he had a goal, But
there is part of me that thinks you don't really
lose that drive, you know, when you get older. If anything,
(48:22):
like he's probably bored and like you know, just kind
of crawling out of his skin. God, horrible expression there
for him. Um, but maybe he just you know, wanted
to keep things interesting and then did you know, do
a couple on the low down, because I mean, let's
listen to lie. This guy is a mass murderer. He's
a psychopath, you know, I mean in my in my opinion. Yeah,
(48:45):
hey Ben, I want to leave the door open just
a little bit, if that's okay with this one. All
I want to mention is that there there was a
BBC small piece put out in where UH photo journalist
video jurnalists traveled there, interviewed several people, including the mayor,
including that doctor we mentioned UH and the historian. And
(49:10):
there's still genetic testing occurring. It's not as though the
study just you know, absolutely stamped it, you know, conclusive,
We're done. It definitely shows that, like there's a very
high likelihood that that the founder effect is you know,
explains what is occurring there and what has occurred there.
But they're still the community itself is still very much
(49:33):
interested in finding more about what's happening and their you know,
their own genes and their ancestry and why so their geneticist.
They're likely right now at least as like Augusto Santos,
who is you know, they're taking the DNA kits that
you may have seen before with like the twenty three
and me using saliva to further test the twin populations
(49:55):
and the mothers just to find out I guess, just
more about what heck is happening and why. Yeah, and
this is important too because the founders effect, Whi's probably
what this is. The found the founder's effect can have
series compose serious dangers to a population as time continues.
(50:16):
There are you know, higher rates of certain diseases or
medical conditions in isolated populations across the planet. So when
you are researching these conditions, in researching this phenomena in
these communities, you have a very real possibility of being
able to help address genetic issues down the line. And
(50:40):
this this is not just important, I would argue for
these communities, of course, it is a huge priority there,
but it's also important for the human species overall. So
these geneticists are doing incredibly important work. And I know,
you know, I know a lot of us probably weren't
expecting to talk about space travel in this episode of
all phases, but it will. Like the larger point is
(51:03):
that this research is going to arm the human species
with with some profound knowledge that will come in handy
in the coming millennia. And you know, that's that's way
out there. I know that's that's very much a tangent.
But what's happening now, Just like you said, Matt is
important to the present, the past, and the future. And
(51:26):
we're also fortunate that we have research capable of dispelling
this mystery because one of the one of the things
that always bugs me is like the the glamorization of
you know, various Nazi ideas through conspiracy, you know. And
what's what's great about this story is that we found good,
(51:50):
diligent scientists one out over mad scientists. Unless that is,
you have proof, you have proof that Mangles did something
that's somehow further accelerated the production of twins. If you do,
we'd love to hear it. Let us know. We try
to be easy to find online. That's right. You can
find us in the usual Internet locations. Of note, we
(52:13):
are on Facebook, we are on Twitter, both of those
are conspiracy stuff. You can find us on Instagram at
Conspiracy Stuff Show and Matt correct me if I'm wrong,
but I believe we are also conspiracy stuff on YouTube. Yes,
that is correct. Check it out, pull up your oculus
and watch us in three D a slash in a
virtual environment slash. It's not really three dashes of virtual environment.
(52:35):
It's fun. I just tried it. It's weird as heck,
but you can watch Ben and he's like forty ft
tall looming over to you, and uh, I don't know
it's worth it. Try it out, see how it plays
for you. I loved it so m yeah. YouTube definitely
for sure. And hey, if you're listening to this via
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(52:57):
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(53:20):
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(53:40):
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(54:03):
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(54:36):
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