April 19, 2019 • 58 mins
Earlier, the guys explored the fact, fiction and speculation surrounding MKULTRA programs, during which the Central Intelligence Agency financed and directed multiple illegal experiments on US citizens. The program was officially disbanded before it became public knowledge, but thousands of people aren't buying the official story -- instead, they say, insidious operations continued throughout the country. Where do these claims come from? Is there any proof?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Gradials How Stuff Works. Welcome back
(00:24):
to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol.
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul. Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. This is in some ways a
sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode
mk Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly
(00:47):
what mk Ultra is. Equally as important, we describe what
it is not and how the public learned about it today. However,
we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going
off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges
of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related
(01:08):
to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode
contains content that may be disturbing to some of us
in the audience, and that means you can turn back
now or walk with us just a bit further away
from the lights. I like that that's a twist on it,
and I really like that it's true. As you know, Matt,
(01:31):
this is very much true in this episode. Let's I mean,
let's let's start off with something easy, something simple. What
what is m KA ultra For anyone who said, I
see im KA ultra one oh one in my podcast feed,
but forget that, I want two oh one one o two. Okay, Well,
(01:51):
I think to one is the right way to go.
That's I think that's the way Georgia state. Uh would
it would do it? So then that's my favor. Alma. Yeah.
So the first thing you have to do is not
think about mk ultra as one thing. It is not
one thing. It is a series of things, of projects,
of experimentations, of different experiments, of different groups of people
(02:15):
who are who are not necessarily working together. A lot
of times the aims were very similar, but you know,
you have different study groups essentially, and uh, it was
all about, really at the heart of it, trying to
find ways to influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior,
or even get them to do some or take some
(02:35):
action that you want them to take. And um, from
all the official accounts of the program really didn't work
out that great. They found some interesting things that could
occur with drugs, with especially how drugs interact with each other.
Sometimes if you get a really psychedelic trip and then uh,
influence somebody's mind down the road, or if you can
(02:56):
keep someone within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting
things there. But uh, but here's here's the deal. Most
everything didn't work the way they wanted it to, right.
It turns out that the human brain was too complex
for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam
(03:17):
was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to
pursue this line of research due to fears that the
Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things
and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification. Uh.
Primarily when they saw a cardinal confessed to h cavalcade
(03:41):
of crimes that he clearly did not do back in
the fifties. I believe um, and what what they thought
was happening was not the case in that scenario. What
they thought was happening was that this guy had been
brainwashed completely and totally and believed these demonstrably false things.
But it turns out that the only thing that really
(04:03):
happened was Communist forces and security services just beat the
ever loving snot out of this guy repeatedly and then
you know, psychologically abused him. And he he later in
life said that he said there was no uh spooky
as spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we do know that,
(04:24):
as you said, met some of these programs had limited success.
They learned new things that would be useful later. From
all official accounts, there are no Manchurian candidates, despite what
sir Han. Sirhan has claimed, and he is alive and
he is in jail. He maintains that he was brainwashed. Yeah,
he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's over right.
(04:48):
I think I don't know if he can go for
parole over parole again, it might be he might be done.
Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like. I
remember hearing, let's put it in there anyway, and somebody
correct me. I love that. So now it seems like
if we if you that's the only information you have
about im Kultra, now you're in a state where it
(05:10):
seems as if this is an open and shut horrific
historical events but we're gonna shamal on it just a
little bit, because the problem with im Ka Ultra is this,
The c i A purged everything they could internally find
related to im Ka Ultra back in three under Director Helms.
(05:32):
When you say purged, we what are you talking about here?
We're talking about physically burning paperwork. The this was. This
only compounded the original problem, which was that they were
not keeping much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want
the trail. They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they
needed to have in order to keep their ducks in
(05:52):
a row, so they perished everything. In seventy three, the
public only found hard proof of the operation when a
rat Him of Information Act request turned up two thousand
documents that have been misfiled. Two thousand documents that we're
supposed to have also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this
means that and probably and probably in thirty nineteen, if
(06:17):
people still care about it, we will not know the
full extent of what the CIA was up to. We
don't know all the experiments they conducted. We have some hints,
but it's possible that we never will learn. As we
noted previously, we have officially entered the realm of deathbed confessions.
What do we mean by this? We mean that the
only way the public will learn more about this program
(06:40):
will be if someone who was working with it firsthand
has a change of heart and confesses or or or
provides new information. Because there, you know, that's how a
deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You wanna
meet the afterlife if such exists with a clean conscience.
And that is if that person even really truly understands
(07:03):
what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were
not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that
was the experiment, right, which is highly possible. That kind
of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments.
Not think about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's
what better moment is there to be able to drop
a truth bomb where you don't have to be around
to deal with the aftermath or to fall out the
(07:25):
consequences directed at you. You know, unless you have kids. Wow,
that's true and grandkids true. It's also but it's also
strangely common for people to make fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes
that can be due to a deteriorating mental state and
(07:46):
someone really believes that there Jack the Ripper and you're like,
oh man, uncle Bill, you were born in ninety three.
The math doesn't check out, and they're like, no, it
was me. It's my dying wish that you tell the
world that truth and you just have to hold their hands.
That's it. That went dark. So so at this point,
(08:09):
as as we record this, there has not been any
large scale revelation related to him k Ultra since those
investigations back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously
held up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress,
and you can see this clip online, folks. It's it's
somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we
(08:30):
talked about this in a previous Did we talk about
this in a previous episode? We did? I believe we've
brought I think we brought this up and we went
over the control group where we talked some of this stuff. Yeah,
and then before that too it with DARPA, yes, yeah,
and assassination attempts. So it's pretty neat idea. It's a
gun that fires frozen darts of poison and they're so
(08:56):
small that they can go through your clothing. Without leaving
a mark. And if it works, if they successfully get
the shot off, the corpse will look as if it
died from a heart attack. Clever stuff. Can't mall piercing. Yeah,
I can't buy it in Walmart. Yeah, and don't mean
if it was available, do not buy that. Don't For
(09:17):
anyone who is listening and not in the United States,
one thing that would probably baffle you, or maybe not,
is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know, that's
what thing we all accept as normal here. But if
you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket,
wouldn't you be surprised? Probably? You know, Dick's Sporting Goods
(09:39):
is actually phasing out the sale of guns. I think
largely because I mean, I'm sure there was some political
reasons for doing it, but I think from what I heard,
it was becoming less and less profitable. That makes sense. Yeah,
and in a big box store like that, you know
what I mean. Usually you would go to a specialty
store to buy guns or a gun show. And they're
also most of them long rifles of some sort. That's right,
(10:00):
like a shotgun or hunting right, not not quite as
effective unless you're sniping and they no one sells the
heart attack gun that we know of. So all this
secrecy has led to an interesting situation. The strange and
strangely incomplete story of mk Ultra has become enshrined in
(10:24):
conspiracy folklore. It has been associated with multitudes of other theories,
and typically the gist of those theories will go the
U S public learned about m k Ultra. That is
the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There's much much more
beneath the surface, and if you buy my book you
(10:45):
will learn it. Which sounds a little bit cynical, but
that is honestly the way it goes, and it's it's
all based on a very valid and troubling question, what
else went on from the nineteen fifties through the nineteen seventies,
for other more, what if anything happened afterward? And we're
going to delve into that right after a quick word
(11:06):
from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy, more or less.
Immediately after the reveal of m k Ultra, people in
the United States and abroad began raising allegations of continuing
(11:28):
related programs, and this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out
there in terms of the claims. The most infamous alleged
project related to m k Ultra is something called Project Monarch. Yes,
and this is this is one of the one of
the more out there things I would say that we're
(11:51):
going to discuss. There are some weird things we're going
to discuss today, but this is one of the feels
like it's out there because oh, here's a little spoiler alert.
It involves demons, it involves rituals, the cabala in mysticism,
some of our favorite things, multiple personalities, and or demonic possession.
(12:12):
So let's get into it. All of that though within
what's described as a systematic framework. So this is like
some serious like X files type stuff, and uh, it
involved some things, some rituals that could be described as
satanic in nature um, usually involving some form of cannibalism,
(12:34):
and performed with the intent of attaching a demon or
you know, a pantheon, like a group of demons um
and in order to kind of create alternate versions of individuals,
as in the same way that you might through therapy
create an alternate version of a self that didn't experience
(12:55):
the trauma that caused you to have you know, psychological
problems right, This, this idea of intentionally creating alters or
alternate personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it
in works of fiction. It's in hereditary Agroably, it feels
(13:18):
a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret military
thing or a secret um projects like this, and and
a lot of a lot of cults also practice this
kind of disassociation. It's just yeah, it's just in a
different form, right. You don't have to use you don't
(13:39):
need to get demons involved, you don't need to get
the cabal involved. You just start dissociating somebody through manipulation.
Crowley also practice some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy,
which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. No, your
your description might sound weird to some of us listening,
(14:00):
but that is that is the case. The idea is
that um, this this occult stuff was either a theatrical
trapping or they were practicing magic to summon some sort
of extra dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors,
(14:22):
into vessels for these creatures. That's a lot to take in,
you know. To to to phrase it simply, we'll get
back to some of the stuff. But to phrase it simply.
The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as
a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its
successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors
(14:48):
on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named
Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that
they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy
brian is one of the most prominent. She wrote a
book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an
audio show, I just want to make sure you get
(15:10):
the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance, and in
formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation
of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch.
She relates in the following way. She says she was
sexually abused as a child multiple occasions by various people,
(15:32):
starting with her father and then expanding to a network
of individuals who were connected with the underground world of
underage pornography. Y yeah, and then according to the story
she that's when she became a victim of Project Monarch.
She describes Monarch as a project that used trauma based
(15:57):
mind control that's in quotes there to create eight separate
distinct personalities within a single individual. This kind of makes
you think of almost the Manchurian candidate effect, where you've
got like a buried personality that can be summoned at will,
or not your will, but the will of your controller. Right.
Uh So, according to A. Brian, this is accomplished with
(16:19):
the help of some of these occult trappings and of
course a lot of theater of the mind. She claims,
for example, the George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation.
And this is a quote from Mary said. She said,
Bush apparently activated hologram of the lizard like alien, which
provided the illusion of Bush transforming, uh, like a chameleon
(16:39):
before my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had
been painstakingly careful and positioning our seats in order that
the holograms effectiveness be maximized. Mhm. So on the surface,
it sounds like somebody, um, who's making up a story
when you're listening to it with a skeptical mind. Uh,
(17:00):
It's it's difficult to not do that, I think, because
it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical. Um,
sit right there and watch me lizard real quick. Yeah, well,
I need to position your seat for watching. But but
you know, um, I think that's what with these kinds
(17:23):
of things. It's difficult even listening to it, to to
put your mind in a place where you can think, well,
is that in any way possible or is there like,
what are the what are the possible explanations for this?
To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is
using hologram technology to trick you or show you something,
(17:43):
uh of an extraterrestrial Yeah, and maybe Socratic method is
the one of the best ways to approach this, you know,
start with a question. Let's say, if that were true,
what set of circumstances would compel one of the most
powerful people in the world to do this. It sounds
(18:07):
like Dick Cheney didn't do anything. Oh, you know, I
imagine that he was involved. He seems like a guy
would be excited by holograms. Who wouldn't their neat Do
you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly are
doing a hologram tour? This is now a thing, like
it's really becoming a thing. Started with Tupac. Yeah, it
(18:29):
did start with Tupac, but now it's like whole package hologram.
I only bring it out because it used to be
something that was used to by the military. Uh, and
now it's you know, just for for funzies. Churches are
using that across the globe right now. The megachurches that
have a single person like Andy Stanley or somebody who's
giving a talk dollar yeah, and there he's being he
(18:52):
and they are being like turned into holograms essentially. And
churches I would have thought they would have made one
of Jesus price effect. It's touchy, that's a touch of one.
It's tough. I mean, imagine making a hologram of any
religious figure, a hologram of Buddha, hologram of muhammadmatic right,
(19:14):
you know that would be Project blue Beam yep, which
is which is a different show. The important part here
before we get to sidetracked with holograms, The important part
here is the timing of this, because the allegation then
is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting to
this technology to um to traumatize children. It's that this
(19:40):
technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else.
But the big question is why would someone do that?
And it doesn't stay in the U s. O'Brian paints
a global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico,
the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia are all actively involved in
(20:01):
Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the express
purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings.
Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago,
it would have. O'Brien claims to have phenomenal photographic recall
(20:23):
of these events, despite previously suppressing them or having them
suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book
come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic
regression is a as a process in which a hypnotist
(20:45):
sits with a person and takes them into a trance
state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big
problem with hypnotic regression is the G word. You just said.
They're being guided guided there we go, yeah, right, because
(21:06):
you the ideas can be slightly influenced with us tiny
keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in during
the guidance process that then leads the you know, how
do you know if the person your subject. If it's
their imagination that's taking you down that path, or if
they're actually recalling an event that's taking them down that
(21:26):
path of recollection, is it recollection or fiction? And there's
no real way to tell right right there is the
problem is that if you're putting an individual in a
state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding.
And this is not to say that the hypnotists in
(21:49):
question are purposely doing this. It's just very easy to
accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction.
And you know, we know that men betrays us and
most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as
we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and
monarch there right now a second, yes, and let's just
(22:11):
go ahead and put forth right here that you may
see online accusations of a lot of pop stars, and
generally younger female pop stars, there are a lot of
accusations that they have been individually involved in monarch in
some way. A lot of times you'll see allegations of
a music video like a Katy Perry music video or
(22:32):
um Britney Spears was a big one back in the
day of look at the symbology, Look at the symbols
happening in these videos. This this is Project Monarch like
them showing us without telling us in a way like
almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot. Um. You'll
see when when a young pop star has a breakdown,
like a public breakdown, that Project Marnarch Monarchy gets brought
(22:56):
up a lot, especially especially when I'm recalling when Britney
Spears like shaved her head. Yes, exactly, leave Britney, Well,
that was a part of it. But but genuinely, that's
when you will see a lot of that stuff cropping
up UM as part of the trauma that was supposedly
(23:16):
given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch.
Just putting that out there, and other people will say
that the world of um, the world of entertainment music
especially is already crooked and horrific and and just sad
and pathetic enough without needing to add in that other
(23:37):
the other problems. But it's true, and that's a very
good point. You can find numerous lists of people like
Amanda Bindes, Britney Spears, of who else tell us tell
us your favorites, right, Oh, Katy Perry as you said,
Margot Kidder. Margot Kidders, I don't know who that is.
She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies
(24:00):
and she was found like wandering make it, I believe
in other people's yards in Beverly Hills. Yeah, she had
like a like an episode. She she was not low
and she was not gang stalked, but other people have been.
This is this is something related to mk ultra that
you will hear a lot. Some of us listening now
(24:21):
have asked us in the past to cover gang stalking
and we can do an entire episode on it. So well,
we'll just give you the broad strokes here. Gang Stalking
is the idea that a person, for one reason or another,
will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in person by a
(24:44):
group of unidentified people. So imagine you wherever you're at. Now,
imagine that you get up, you walk outside, and there's
someone in the distance in the corner. They have a
green hat one and you see them, but you don't know.
(25:04):
You know, you might not be in a town where
people wave at strangers. So you just keep walking and
go to a store. And while you're in the store,
let's say, you're feeling healthy, so you buy some juice
and some almonds, and then the person who rings you
up is looking at you weird. You look behind you
(25:24):
and there's someone in a green hat at the end
of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just sort of
standing there, and you know they're pretending to shop, and
you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave walking back,
and as you're walking back, you see three other people,
possibly in green hats, possibly not uh, and they're all
(25:46):
just sort of standing around as if they're waiting for you.
One person is on the phone talking. You can't hear
what they're saying, but they are staring directly at you.
That's gang stalking. It's essentially the Truman Show. Right. If
you are Truman, it feels as though for the person
experiencing it, or who believing they're experiencing it, it it feels
like you are Truman, and it's a more malicious Truman show. Right.
(26:12):
So is this harassment is a paranoia? Is it good
old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in at
least a few cases, are correct. You know what I mean? Yeah,
I mean, for for someone experiencing um, perhaps a short
term high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this.
(26:37):
I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stalking
at the height of a time in my life when
I'm feeling unsure, or something where i just feel as
though everyone around me is out to get me, just
for a moment, you know what I mean. I think
we've all maybe experienced something like that where everything just
feels off um And there are a lot of people
out there who have experienced that before, and for perhaps
(26:59):
more deep sea to problems they've experienced that. But we
do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like
actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it and it's
not that uncommon. It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft
because typically you would want your observer to be unnoticed.
(27:22):
But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries
or dictatorships. It will probably will probably phase out a
little bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient. Yeah, at
this point, you could just get into somebody's cell phone
and then it could be on a table and you
(27:44):
got everything you need right right. And by the way,
we got a great email from our in essay. In
turn we did it was moving on. Congratulations and we'll
we'll go. Let's go to gang stocking in its own episode.
Let's make that an episode in the future. And in
the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories about gang stalking.
(28:05):
We'd like to uh know what you would like to
share with your fellow listeners. For now, it seems that
we have monarch as a as a thing that's universally
dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We have gang stalking,
which is problematic, but we do know that mk ultra
(28:27):
is moving forward, at least in the legal system and
not here in the US. That's right, we have to
go to Canada for for a look into a class
action lawsuit. We're gonna do that right after another word
from our sponsor, Oh Canada. So we had spoken in
(28:51):
m k Ultra one oh one about the two unsuccessful
lawsuits here in the States related to mk Ultra. In Canada,
there is a class action suit in in the works
now survivors and families the people who were affected by
M k Ultrum and the c I a mind control
(29:12):
program at a place called McGill University's Allen Memorial Institute
in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and the federal
governments both the USA and Canada because of what they
say had been done to them five decades ago. You
can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against Government
(29:34):
Abuse UH. The acronym would be SAGA with two ways
at the beginning, and this includes victims and family members
of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under
the supervision of a man named Dr Ewan Cameron. He
was director of the psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties
(29:56):
and sixties. He did something that would be familiar to
fans of the cont roll group. He conducted these experiments
that were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they
essentially did, it's through a number of a number of techniques.
They would try to erase the patient's memories, which is
(30:16):
not an impossible thing to do, and then go a
step further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts.
One of the examples of this would include forcing someone
to listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and
over again, four hours and hours on end, while also
(30:37):
drugging them to keep them in a comatose or semi
comatose unconscious state. So this could last for as long
as three days. Just you're you're put under, You're you're
administered like the food and water you need to survive,
and the entire time, there's some tape saying you know, um,
(31:01):
probably in the doctor's voice or maybe in your own voice. Yeah,
when when it's like I can only trust Dr Frederick.
Dr Frederick wants me, well, certainly most effective in your voice,
I think, as the patient, error as the subject, because
then it becomes your own inner dialogue and you're and
(31:23):
you're in a state of sensory deprivation when you're put under.
So yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff.
And if you want to an example of a fictionalized
version of it again, check out Control Group. It's available
right now, all episodes and season two is going to
be happening at some point. It's true. Yeah, it's a
creepy story. It's creepy story. The Canadian government gave Dr
(31:48):
Cameron roughly half a million dollars between nineteen fifty and
nineteen sixty five if we wanted to adjust for inflation
that's four million bucks US. They gave him four million
bucks and then the CIA also gave him money through
one of those front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt,
(32:10):
the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. That's great.
So are we for it or again it? Yea, we
are refer are refer mk ultra in general, the various projects,
various projects. But let's hear some arguments for and against. Okay, um,
(32:35):
let's let's start with Monarch. That sounds good, yes, yes,
So the first thing we should be very very clear
about when you say four four or against, we're saying
four or against them actually existing, the veracity of these claims.
We're not. We're not arguing that we support projects. I mean,
that's your position. Okay, Yeah, that's true, that's true. Absolutely,
(32:56):
it is a democracy. But no, it's exactly I mean,
this is it's a cliche, but this is utterly shrouded
in mystery. There's a lot of conjecture that goes into
picking this stuff apart. So what are the arguments for
its existence versus against its existence? Okay? Well, okay, let's
again let's start with project Monarch. Right, Okay, we're talking
(33:17):
about how we got these f o I A documents
for mk Ultra in general. Right overall, there is nothing
in any of those documents that talk about ways to
implant demons and or use um ancient mysticism or anything
to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch.
(33:38):
It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're
gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally,
or speaking in a book or something saying I was
a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject.
I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint. The majority of
(33:59):
mk Ultra documents were destroyed. It's true. It's true when
we say a counterpoint, it's a great counterpoint. Most of
them were destroyed. And you would probably want to destroy
something if you had anything written down about using demons
to manipulate people and create sex slaves. Yeah, I agreed.
(34:20):
You just toss off sex slaves just like nothing just now,
Well I did, because that's essentially what that is. Essentially
what the monarch is supposed to be about. Whether it's
a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave, like
an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears or someone
that then projects out to millions of people across the planet.
(34:41):
What it what what it should be to be essentially,
or it's a single human being like who was being
you know, abused and like in in the shadows by
someone powerful. So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we
know that the entertainment industry, from film to music and
(35:04):
so on, is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse.
We know that we know a lot of the people
who have done that are never going to see a
day in court. They're never gonna go to jail. But
some of them actually are now. But some yeah, a few, sure,
But I guess that's better than nothing. We also know
(35:24):
that intelligence agencies across the world use honeypot traps. Right,
That's where you get you get compromat, as the Russians
would call it, on someone by filming them in a
sexually compromising situation, usually with a paid professional sex worker,
(35:47):
but occasionally with someone who has been coerced into playing
that role, like the PP tape right, like the that
may or may not exist right from the Steel dossier
right for the current president. That's that's one of the
hot allegations. There is one funny story because we're we're
exploring some dark and disturbing things. I can at least
give us one um less terrible story. You can read
(36:12):
this in the War Is Boring The War is Boring
section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh. The CIA
and the KGB both tried to blackmail Indonesia's first president,
a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia
played an important role in the Cold War between the
(36:34):
US and the USSR, which is all it all comes
back to that usually in this time in history, uh,
they decided to do a honey pot scheme. The KGB
operatives dressed as flight attendants and had group sexual relations
(36:55):
with the dictator. And then the CIA produced a you
essentially a pornographic film, and they thought that they would
be able to use this on the dictator. You know
what I mean, get in line with our ideas or
we will expose you, you dirty, dirty dog. And the
(37:18):
problem is the problem is it he was very happy
with it. He asked for copies. He liked to show
it to people. It was like, look like look where
the It's like look look, look, look look these are
flight attendants. Yeah. Yeah, He's like, you know, let me
(37:39):
play that part again. Somebody rewind this because this is like,
I'm really proud of this one. So this I hear.
That's the thing. A bunch of flight attendants get together
and film I'm important people. So uh so it did backfire, right,
and uh I think that's I think that's a hilarious story.
It's a hilarious story about evil people. But the reason
(38:01):
it's important is because each shows us that these sorts
of operations do exist. However, again to your point, Matt,
there is no mention of monarch and any mk ultrare documents.
There's no mention of monarch and anything official. Religious and
political scholars criticized Cathy O'Brien's claims because they say there
(38:22):
is absolutely no supporting evidence, and at this point there
is absolutely no supporting evidence. Uh. David G. Robinson characterized
them as symptomatic of something called moral panic and noted
that no one has ever been prosecuted of such crimes,
nor as any corroborate material evidence ever been produced. It
(38:43):
just stinks that you can't you can't just take that
for what it is, because you have to go back
to the point of if any of this was actually
happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that maybe
just we would never know about it. Right. And also, um, also,
even if someone who is a survivor of abuse doesn't
(39:06):
have all of the facts or the dates at their command,
that doesn't mean that they're lying. And I've I've brought
with me today, uh an old friend of ours, this
book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior, which is
about moral panics and how they spread. I highly recommend
(39:26):
this book for anyone who is um interested in seeing
just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's always the
idea of something either so morally reprehensible and against social
morays that are universally acknowledged to be good things. So
(39:47):
that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etcetera, all
all the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming
and possibly life threatening people are right. And because a
new report says that you will get eye cancer in
(40:09):
two weeks if you don't drink coffee, so the stores
all sell out a coffee. People are fighting over coffee.
And then later the same paper that published that publishes
a retraction on page ten and no one reads it,
and coffee prices go through the roof smart evil. Let's
do it right now, we can't, we just do it
(40:30):
on it. So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't
mean that people are stupid. It means that we're easily
led to We have this idea of what the right
thing to do is, and we want to be on
the right side of history, right, so we will do
what we can. And sometimes we should research, research this
(40:53):
stuff before we react to it. And then there's another
burning question. This is a big counterpoint no for four sense.
If this is true, if any of this is true,
then how are these Project Monarch survivors alive? How are
they publishing books? How are they writing about this and
not you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a
(41:15):
duffel bag or having and shot themselves twice in the
back of the head. Because it's not entirely true, I'm
asking like it seems like if there were an organization
this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right.
It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging
that went down. You know, yeah, great point. So where
(41:38):
is this name coming from? I mean, there there was
no the name wasn't in any kind of any kind
of documentation. Where where did this begin to circulate? Do
we even have an origin for that? The way this
information got out into the public records primarily from people
who say that they survived the program, So anecdotes and
are they corroborated, like are they people who knew each
other or I'm just I mean, I'm just wondering if
(42:01):
there is any connection between these people or this is interesting.
It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question.
There may well be people who say they knew each
other now, but their story changed as their sessions continued.
There were also stories of people so in the universe
(42:24):
of this, people are not meeting one another under their
real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten
year old who was called different names. These horrific things
occur to you. You never see that ten year old again,
but you learned that they have died. So it has
baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things.
(42:50):
And it's part of the Satanic panic. Honestly, the moral
panic that swept through the US and really peaked in
the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties.
Then you you know about this, right, D and D
was the was a herald of dark Satanic times to come.
(43:11):
Everybody with any sort of authority that was not religious,
any secular power, was part of the illuminati. They were
dressing in robes, they were circling around, they were killing goats, children,
eating people, human flesh. Um. They were doing bohemian groves stuff,
but not with an effigy with people. Those are those
(43:32):
are the ideas. UH. This made some big careers in
journalism and in the publishing world, and at this point
still despite all the public attention, there's been no evidence
of a widespread event of this nature. And that's an
important point because it's not like it's just, um, the
(43:55):
five of us, you know, you listening to the three
of us and then mission control. It's not like it's
just five people looking into this. This was a nation.
These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this
search and they came up with bubkus. There have, however,
been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the
(44:18):
halls of power UH in Belgium, in the US, in
the UK. These abuse networks are real, They're just not
necessarily satanic. And they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies,
at least the ones we found. And the the Satanic
angle is almost like and this is this is one
(44:40):
way to think about it. If you place Satanism and
the devil and that kind of evil on top of
something like this that may even be provable with in
some way or another, or um spoken about by enough
people if you put if you place those labels on it,
it be it becomes so crazy and out there that
(45:00):
it almost becomes impossible that that these kinds of abuse
networks could function at that level. Right, It makes you
believe that it's impossible when you bring the devil and
evil into it like that, rather than it just being
a group of powerful people that have really messed up
things that they like to do. Uh, Does that make
(45:22):
any sense? Does not to mention that the whole idea
of like secret Satanic organizations has been time and time
again disproven, Like the idea of like the whole Satanic
panic thing, it's a panic because no one's really doing
and in the way that you might think, you know
what I'm saying, like even like the the the child
murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever, like the the
idea that there are groups of quote unquote Satan worshippers
(45:46):
that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I mean, it
was it's always to me, what's been proven out is
that it's much more of a form of protest and
kind of like a middle finger to the man and
like you know, organized religion than it is some kind
of shadowy cabal doing rituals and like a dungeon somewhere right.
And then the thing is that these two things are
(46:07):
these two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like
Jeffrey Epstein who repeatedly abused children, and they can have
cover up s occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly
abused children and as of now totally got away with it.
And then there are groups who are pursuing um a
(46:29):
religious or ceremonial thing, you know what I mean. Like
they get to like Anton LaVey is not a deistic Satanist.
It's not someone who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo
Christian Islamic God. And then some adversary and sided with
a bad guy, and they're very much against any kind
(46:50):
of abuse. You know, they get a bad rap, but absolutely,
but we do know that there are there are times
when this sort of child abuse draped in Satanic ritual
has occurred. True Detective Season one, which is fantastic, uh,
seems at least partially inspired by a genuine child abuse
(47:13):
network that operated out of a church in Ponchatoula, Louisiana.
For the record, the creator of the show, Nick Pizolatto,
initially said I had no idea this was a thing.
I don't know what you're talking about, but also said
that about a couple other aspects sort of lifted for
that first season two right right, right, exactly some of
the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted. I don't
(47:36):
remember who it was, but it was sort of a
modern day philosophy guy who he kind of lifted some
of those lines from. Absolutely, and maybe he should have
just come clean and been transparent about it. But we
also know there's an elephant in the room. Several of
us listening are are saying, how are you guys going
to talk about this kind of stuff? And not mentioned
(47:56):
the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church actively covered
up numerous cases of child abuse for at the very,
very least decades and if current behavior or recent behavior
was any indication that we're looking at UM a phenomenon
that goes back centuries and it's so widespread that it's
(48:16):
at the very top of the organizational structure. Right, So
the more cynical among us will often regard monarch claims
as either a delusion, an indication of being mentally unwell,
or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying child abuses real.
There's no indication that the US government actively poured money
into a program designed to brainwash people through the abuse
(48:37):
of minors. And this brings up the phenomenon that we're
We've explored before, but it's key to this, and we've
been we've been getting closer and closer to that in
this episode the problem of individual actors Versus institutional actors
UH make up a name for a politician, Um Kringle okay,
(48:58):
so Kringle Rickenbach, representative in UH It's uh Idaho is
found to be committing UH flagrant repeated acts of abuse
of some kind of abuse, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out
has been getting really weird with it too. He wears
some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and
(49:21):
a a a little dance he does before he eats
people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even
though he's proven to have committed these he goes to jail.
He's insane. Uh. And this doesn't mean that the government
or the constituency he represented co signed this in any way.
They were voting for him because of his uh stance
(49:44):
on taxes and they did not know he was accountable.
So he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real
world case in the case of Jimmy Saville or several
Catholic priests, there's an institution that actively aids and a
bets the criminals involved. The Catholic Church covered up for
sexual abusers, and high society in England, including law enforcement
(50:08):
and including uh the government, right, Parliament, corporation, media corporations
of BBC. They covered up this, these crimes. And that
means it's a matter of institutional actors. So the big
question is people in the US government we're doing horrific,
dirty things. Were they doing it as individuals or were
(50:32):
they doing it as representatives of an institution. That's the
big question, and it's tough to answer. But we do
have some good news, at least for people seeking justice
in Canada. Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top
of this section. Well, let's let's get into that a
little bit. So, Um, the court, uh, the court still
has to certify certain things about this, right, but but
(50:55):
here's here's some quotations, some things we know about it
thus far. So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and
the lawsuit states that his tactics were nothing more than
an electronic lobotomy. And it also claims that he damaged
a lot of his other patients brains and shattered their
(51:16):
psyches and left them unable to function in a society
and within their families. So this one, doctor Cameron, really
did some seemingly horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit.
Right yeah, yeah, yeah, And uh, he died is since
passed away of a heart attack. The government of Canada
(51:39):
paid seventy seven of his victims a settlement of one
thousand dollars and rejected the claims of more than two
hundred and fifty others. So maybe just the most egregious
offending moments, I guess, and probably the way that large
governments where people who could provide a paper trail proving
where they were and when the case may go may
(52:03):
go to court. Hopefully it will, but according to the
National Post, the Government of Canada is going to be
in an antagonistic position for the course of this legal proceeding.
The Government of Canada asked a third party, a guy
named George T. H. Cooper, to conduct an inquiry into
Dr Cameron's d patterning work between nineteen fifty and sixty five,
(52:24):
and this Cooper report, which was concluded in said that
Canada did not hold any legal liability or moral responsibility
in respect to these treatments. So Canada said, uh, yeah,
hands up. We're both throwing our hands up like that.
Canada says not not us, not us, and uh McGill
(52:45):
University Health Center also said Cameron carried out these experiments,
but they were not responsible for his actions. So they're
also saying not us, not an institution and individual. And
this leads to some conclusions, or as close as we
can get at this point. Missing information about MK ultra,
(53:06):
it will continue to feed uh conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes
and so on, and we probably won't be we we
can disprove some stuff, but we will never be able
to fully understand what m k Ultra actually did exactly.
And there you know, it's so funny. The lack of
(53:30):
transparency here is the big issue, at least from the
government side. If the if these documents were available at
some point for everybody to see them, it would be
more of a oh wow, look look at what we
did back then. That's pretty brutal. Oh man, I hope
we at least gained some knowledge from that, from putting
(53:51):
all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully we can
get some justice for those people. But now it's just, um,
it's just a breeding ground for much worse ideas because
because of that lack of transparency. Yeah, exactly. We can
keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit. Legally speaking, that's
(54:12):
the only thing continuing right now. And maybe maybe we'll
learn some more information about a specific project of mk ultra,
right and maybe that's how we get things. Maybe we
collect breadcrumbs. But that means it takes a long time
to build the whole loaf. You know, it sounds like
a whole podcast, just just a podcast and figuring out
(54:35):
figuring out culture is. While we talked about having Russell
targ back on that's true. It could be just the thing.
Let's just get him to host a show where he
remote views and to track down scientists who are involved
in MK ultra programs and then UH does hypnotic regression
on them and or remote viewing with them. It teaches
(54:57):
them to go back and remember and the pitch. Let's
do it. So also, I mean, also, we we are
reaching the point where, just due to the limitations of
human lifespan, a lot of people who could make a
deathbed confession have already died. You know what I mean.
We do want to include on a on a last note,
(55:20):
one of the most important things in any episode dealing
with this sort of subject matter is this, If you
are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone
who has survived abuse, UH, please be aware that you
are not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded
(55:41):
and private, that are there for you to provide free counseling,
to provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that
you reach out to these sources. They are there for you.
There is someone waiting to help you. Absolutely, and if
you want to just share your thoughts or your story
with us. You can reach out to us where we
(56:03):
are at Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook and on Twitter. You
can find us on Instagram where we are at Conspiracy
Stuff show. And you guys also have Instagram accounts, that's true.
You can find me at Ben Bolan on Instagram. You
can find me at Embryonic Insider. There you go, and
(56:24):
you can also if you do like Facebook, you can
join our our group. Here's where it gets crazy, where
you can just talk to everybody on there. There's so
many of us that just want to learn more, and
it's a great place to have those open conversations with
everyone else. And if you don't want to do any
of that stuff, you can leave a message a voicemail
(56:46):
at one eight three three st d w y t K.
When do we start doing this unison thing? I don't
know what just happened organically, and now it's just part
of the fabric of the show. It's a chant at
this point, is it's an incantation. That's exactly what it is.
We're all about ritual here on stuff that don't want
you to know. Correct And just in that same vein,
(57:06):
you get three minutes to uh to engrave your voice
and your thoughts into the into our voicemailbox, and we
will we will hear it, and then possibly it will
get on the show at some point. You get three
minutes to do it. You can do multiples if you want,
but if you keep put short you get bonus points. Um,
(57:26):
just because it's a little easier to digest. Um. But yeah,
if you don't want to do any of that stuff,
you can write us a good old fashioned email. We
are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com. Stuff they
(57:56):
Don't Want you to Know is a production of I
Heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my
heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Gradials How Stuff Works. Welcome back
(00:24):
to the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol.
They call me Ben. We are joined with our super
producer Paul. Mission controlled decands. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. This is in some ways a
sequel episode. It's a follow up to our previous episode
mk Ultra one oh one, in which we described exactly
(00:47):
what mk Ultra is. Equally as important, we describe what
it is not and how the public learned about it today. However,
we are looking beyond that twisted origin story. We're going
off the charted proven paths. We're going across the edges
of the map. We're exploring the conspiracies and allegations related
(01:08):
to mk Ultra in the modern day. Listeners, this episode
contains content that may be disturbing to some of us
in the audience, and that means you can turn back
now or walk with us just a bit further away
from the lights. I like that that's a twist on it,
and I really like that it's true. As you know, Matt,
(01:31):
this is very much true in this episode. Let's I mean,
let's let's start off with something easy, something simple. What
what is m KA ultra For anyone who said, I
see im KA ultra one oh one in my podcast feed,
but forget that, I want two oh one one o two. Okay, Well,
(01:51):
I think to one is the right way to go.
That's I think that's the way Georgia state. Uh would
it would do it? So then that's my favor. Alma. Yeah.
So the first thing you have to do is not
think about mk ultra as one thing. It is not
one thing. It is a series of things, of projects,
of experimentations, of different experiments, of different groups of people
(02:15):
who are who are not necessarily working together. A lot
of times the aims were very similar, but you know,
you have different study groups essentially, and uh, it was
all about, really at the heart of it, trying to
find ways to influence human beings, influence their perception, their behavior,
or even get them to do some or take some
(02:35):
action that you want them to take. And um, from
all the official accounts of the program really didn't work
out that great. They found some interesting things that could
occur with drugs, with especially how drugs interact with each other.
Sometimes if you get a really psychedelic trip and then uh,
influence somebody's mind down the road, or if you can
(02:56):
keep someone within a psychedelic trip for long enough. Interesting
things there. But uh, but here's here's the deal. Most
everything didn't work the way they wanted it to, right.
It turns out that the human brain was too complex
for the sort of technology and tactics that Uncle Sam
(03:17):
was applying in this case. They were famously inspired to
pursue this line of research due to fears that the
Soviet Union and the government of China were pursuing things
and already had a jump in this sort of behavioral modification. Uh.
Primarily when they saw a cardinal confessed to h cavalcade
(03:41):
of crimes that he clearly did not do back in
the fifties. I believe um, and what what they thought
was happening was not the case in that scenario. What
they thought was happening was that this guy had been
brainwashed completely and totally and believed these demonstrably false things.
But it turns out that the only thing that really
(04:03):
happened was Communist forces and security services just beat the
ever loving snot out of this guy repeatedly and then
you know, psychologically abused him. And he he later in
life said that he said there was no uh spooky
as spooky psychotronic stuff going on. But we do know that,
(04:24):
as you said, met some of these programs had limited success.
They learned new things that would be useful later. From
all official accounts, there are no Manchurian candidates, despite what
sir Han. Sirhan has claimed, and he is alive and
he is in jail. He maintains that he was brainwashed. Yeah,
he keeps trying. He kept trying. I think it's over right.
(04:48):
I think I don't know if he can go for
parole over parole again, it might be he might be done.
Maybe that's not true. That's what I feel like. I
remember hearing, let's put it in there anyway, and somebody
correct me. I love that. So now it seems like
if we if you that's the only information you have
about im Kultra, now you're in a state where it
(05:10):
seems as if this is an open and shut horrific
historical events but we're gonna shamal on it just a
little bit, because the problem with im Ka Ultra is this,
The c i A purged everything they could internally find
related to im Ka Ultra back in three under Director Helms.
(05:32):
When you say purged, we what are you talking about here?
We're talking about physically burning paperwork. The this was. This
only compounded the original problem, which was that they were
not keeping much paperwork to begin with. They didn't want
the trail. They wanted the minimum amount of stuff they
needed to have in order to keep their ducks in
(05:52):
a row, so they perished everything. In seventy three, the
public only found hard proof of the operation when a
rat Him of Information Act request turned up two thousand
documents that have been misfiled. Two thousand documents that we're
supposed to have also been absolutely utterly destroyed. So this
means that and probably and probably in thirty nineteen, if
(06:17):
people still care about it, we will not know the
full extent of what the CIA was up to. We
don't know all the experiments they conducted. We have some hints,
but it's possible that we never will learn. As we
noted previously, we have officially entered the realm of deathbed confessions.
What do we mean by this? We mean that the
only way the public will learn more about this program
(06:40):
will be if someone who was working with it firsthand
has a change of heart and confesses or or or
provides new information. Because there, you know, that's how a
deathbed confession works. You're about to go out. You wanna
meet the afterlife if such exists with a clean conscience.
And that is if that person even really truly understands
(07:03):
what they were doing or experimenting on, if they were
not just a tiny piece of a larger puzzle that
was the experiment, right, which is highly possible. That kind
of plausible deniability is built into a lot of these experiments.
Not think about a deathbed confession too, is like, it's
what better moment is there to be able to drop
a truth bomb where you don't have to be around
to deal with the aftermath or to fall out the
(07:25):
consequences directed at you. You know, unless you have kids. Wow,
that's true and grandkids true. It's also but it's also
strangely common for people to make fake deathbed confessions. Sometimes
that can be due to a deteriorating mental state and
(07:46):
someone really believes that there Jack the Ripper and you're like,
oh man, uncle Bill, you were born in ninety three.
The math doesn't check out, and they're like, no, it
was me. It's my dying wish that you tell the
world that truth and you just have to hold their hands.
That's it. That went dark. So so at this point,
(08:09):
as as we record this, there has not been any
large scale revelation related to him k Ultra since those
investigations back in the nineteen seventies when the senators famously
held up a heart attack gun in the halls of Congress,
and you can see this clip online, folks. It's it's
somewhat distressing the gun itself. I don't know if we
(08:30):
talked about this in a previous Did we talk about
this in a previous episode? We did? I believe we've
brought I think we brought this up and we went
over the control group where we talked some of this stuff. Yeah,
and then before that too it with DARPA, yes, yeah,
and assassination attempts. So it's pretty neat idea. It's a
gun that fires frozen darts of poison and they're so
(08:56):
small that they can go through your clothing. Without leaving
a mark. And if it works, if they successfully get
the shot off, the corpse will look as if it
died from a heart attack. Clever stuff. Can't mall piercing. Yeah,
I can't buy it in Walmart. Yeah, and don't mean
if it was available, do not buy that. Don't For
(09:17):
anyone who is listening and not in the United States,
one thing that would probably baffle you, or maybe not,
is that Walmart sells guns, which is, you know, that's
what thing we all accept as normal here. But if
you're from Sweden or something and you walk into a supermarket,
wouldn't you be surprised? Probably? You know, Dick's Sporting Goods
(09:39):
is actually phasing out the sale of guns. I think
largely because I mean, I'm sure there was some political
reasons for doing it, but I think from what I heard,
it was becoming less and less profitable. That makes sense. Yeah,
and in a big box store like that, you know
what I mean. Usually you would go to a specialty
store to buy guns or a gun show. And they're
also most of them long rifles of some sort. That's right,
(10:00):
like a shotgun or hunting right, not not quite as
effective unless you're sniping and they no one sells the
heart attack gun that we know of. So all this
secrecy has led to an interesting situation. The strange and
strangely incomplete story of mk Ultra has become enshrined in
(10:24):
conspiracy folklore. It has been associated with multitudes of other theories,
and typically the gist of those theories will go the
U S public learned about m k Ultra. That is
the tip of the proverbial iceberg. There's much much more
beneath the surface, and if you buy my book you
(10:45):
will learn it. Which sounds a little bit cynical, but
that is honestly the way it goes, and it's it's
all based on a very valid and troubling question, what
else went on from the nineteen fifties through the nineteen seventies,
for other more, what if anything happened afterward? And we're
going to delve into that right after a quick word
(11:06):
from our sponsor. Here's where it gets crazy, more or less.
Immediately after the reveal of m k Ultra, people in
the United States and abroad began raising allegations of continuing
(11:28):
related programs, and this quickly, quickly, quickly got very out
there in terms of the claims. The most infamous alleged
project related to m k Ultra is something called Project Monarch. Yes,
and this is this is one of the one of
the more out there things I would say that we're
(11:51):
going to discuss. There are some weird things we're going
to discuss today, but this is one of the feels
like it's out there because oh, here's a little spoiler alert.
It involves demons, it involves rituals, the cabala in mysticism,
some of our favorite things, multiple personalities, and or demonic possession.
(12:12):
So let's get into it. All of that though within
what's described as a systematic framework. So this is like
some serious like X files type stuff, and uh, it
involved some things, some rituals that could be described as
satanic in nature um, usually involving some form of cannibalism,
(12:34):
and performed with the intent of attaching a demon or
you know, a pantheon, like a group of demons um
and in order to kind of create alternate versions of individuals,
as in the same way that you might through therapy
create an alternate version of a self that didn't experience
(12:55):
the trauma that caused you to have you know, psychological
problems right, This, this idea of intentionally creating alters or
alternate personalities isn't unique to Project Monarch. You've seen it
in works of fiction. It's in hereditary Agroably, it feels
(13:18):
a lot like a fictionalized version of a secret military
thing or a secret um projects like this, and and
a lot of a lot of cults also practice this
kind of disassociation. It's just yeah, it's just in a
different form, right. You don't have to use you don't
(13:39):
need to get demons involved, you don't need to get
the cabal involved. You just start dissociating somebody through manipulation.
Crowley also practice some stuff like this, and the Illuminatus trilogy,
which is a fantastic work, also depicts this. No, your
your description might sound weird to some of us listening,
(14:00):
but that is that is the case. The idea is
that um, this this occult stuff was either a theatrical
trapping or they were practicing magic to summon some sort
of extra dimensional entity and make people, typically children, minors,
(14:22):
into vessels for these creatures. That's a lot to take in,
you know. To to to phrase it simply, we'll get
back to some of the stuff. But to phrase it simply.
The people who believe in Project Monarch see it as
a subset of the earlier program Project Artichoke and its
successor mk Ultra. One of the most well known authors
(14:48):
on the subject of Project Monarch is a person named
Kathy O'Brien. You can find multiple people who claim that
they were somehow involved in this Monarch program, but Kathy
brian is one of the most prominent. She wrote a
book called The Transformation of America. Since this is an
audio show, I just want to make sure you get
(15:10):
the pun there. Trance as in hypnotic trance, and in
formation as in an organization or group. So in Transformation
of America, she claims she was a victim of Monarch.
She relates in the following way. She says she was
sexually abused as a child multiple occasions by various people,
(15:32):
starting with her father and then expanding to a network
of individuals who were connected with the underground world of
underage pornography. Y yeah, and then according to the story
she that's when she became a victim of Project Monarch.
She describes Monarch as a project that used trauma based
(15:57):
mind control that's in quotes there to create eight separate
distinct personalities within a single individual. This kind of makes
you think of almost the Manchurian candidate effect, where you've
got like a buried personality that can be summoned at will,
or not your will, but the will of your controller. Right.
Uh So, according to A. Brian, this is accomplished with
(16:19):
the help of some of these occult trappings and of
course a lot of theater of the mind. She claims,
for example, the George W. Bush used holograms for intimidation.
And this is a quote from Mary said. She said,
Bush apparently activated hologram of the lizard like alien, which
provided the illusion of Bush transforming, uh, like a chameleon
(16:39):
before my eyes. In retrospect, I understand that Bush had
been painstakingly careful and positioning our seats in order that
the holograms effectiveness be maximized. Mhm. So on the surface,
it sounds like somebody, um, who's making up a story
when you're listening to it with a skeptical mind. Uh,
(17:00):
It's it's difficult to not do that, I think, because
it sounds so out there, it sounds so fantastical. Um,
sit right there and watch me lizard real quick. Yeah, well,
I need to position your seat for watching. But but
you know, um, I think that's what with these kinds
(17:23):
of things. It's difficult even listening to it, to to
put your mind in a place where you can think, well,
is that in any way possible or is there like,
what are the what are the possible explanations for this?
To have that belief that George W. Bush somehow is
using hologram technology to trick you or show you something,
(17:43):
uh of an extraterrestrial Yeah, and maybe Socratic method is
the one of the best ways to approach this, you know,
start with a question. Let's say, if that were true,
what set of circumstances would compel one of the most
powerful people in the world to do this. It sounds
(18:07):
like Dick Cheney didn't do anything. Oh, you know, I
imagine that he was involved. He seems like a guy
would be excited by holograms. Who wouldn't their neat Do
you guys hear that Roy Orbison and Buddy Holly are
doing a hologram tour? This is now a thing, like
it's really becoming a thing. Started with Tupac. Yeah, it
(18:29):
did start with Tupac, but now it's like whole package hologram.
I only bring it out because it used to be
something that was used to by the military. Uh, and
now it's you know, just for for funzies. Churches are
using that across the globe right now. The megachurches that
have a single person like Andy Stanley or somebody who's
giving a talk dollar yeah, and there he's being he
(18:52):
and they are being like turned into holograms essentially. And
churches I would have thought they would have made one
of Jesus price effect. It's touchy, that's a touch of one.
It's tough. I mean, imagine making a hologram of any
religious figure, a hologram of Buddha, hologram of muhammadmatic right,
(19:14):
you know that would be Project blue Beam yep, which
is which is a different show. The important part here
before we get to sidetracked with holograms, The important part
here is the timing of this, because the allegation then
is not just that prominent world leaders are resorting to
this technology to um to traumatize children. It's that this
(19:40):
technology existed in their circle before it existed anywhere else.
But the big question is why would someone do that?
And it doesn't stay in the U s. O'Brian paints
a global portrait of abuse. She claims that forces in Mexico,
the US, Europe, Saudi Arabia are all actively involved in
(20:01):
Monarch and its successors, its successor programs for the express
purpose of creating sex slaves and maintaining child abuse rings.
Several years ago, that would have sounded impossible. Several years ago,
it would have. O'Brien claims to have phenomenal photographic recall
(20:23):
of these events, despite previously suppressing them or having them
suppressed by shadowy government agents. Her recollections in her book
come overwhelmingly, almost entirely from what's called hypnotic regression. Hypnotic
regression is a as a process in which a hypnotist
(20:45):
sits with a person and takes them into a trance
state and guides them through reliving past experiences. The big
problem with hypnotic regression is the G word. You just said.
They're being guided guided there we go, yeah, right, because
(21:06):
you the ideas can be slightly influenced with us tiny
keyword or a tiny word that is thrown in during
the guidance process that then leads the you know, how
do you know if the person your subject. If it's
their imagination that's taking you down that path, or if
they're actually recalling an event that's taking them down that
(21:26):
path of recollection, is it recollection or fiction? And there's
no real way to tell right right there is the
problem is that if you're putting an individual in a
state of enhanced suggestibility, then they're very open to guiding.
And this is not to say that the hypnotists in
(21:49):
question are purposely doing this. It's just very easy to
accidentally take someone in a weird in a weird direction.
And you know, we know that men betrays us and
most of our memories are increasingly works of fiction as
we age. But that's let's leave let's leave O'Brien and
monarch there right now a second, yes, and let's just
(22:11):
go ahead and put forth right here that you may
see online accusations of a lot of pop stars, and
generally younger female pop stars, there are a lot of
accusations that they have been individually involved in monarch in
some way. A lot of times you'll see allegations of
a music video like a Katy Perry music video or
(22:32):
um Britney Spears was a big one back in the
day of look at the symbology, Look at the symbols
happening in these videos. This this is Project Monarch like
them showing us without telling us in a way like
almost flaunting it. You'll see that a lot. Um. You'll
see when when a young pop star has a breakdown,
like a public breakdown, that Project Marnarch Monarchy gets brought
(22:56):
up a lot, especially especially when I'm recalling when Britney
Spears like shaved her head. Yes, exactly, leave Britney, Well,
that was a part of it. But but genuinely, that's
when you will see a lot of that stuff cropping
up UM as part of the trauma that was supposedly
(23:16):
given to her or that she experienced through Project Monarch.
Just putting that out there, and other people will say
that the world of um, the world of entertainment music
especially is already crooked and horrific and and just sad
and pathetic enough without needing to add in that other
(23:37):
the other problems. But it's true, and that's a very
good point. You can find numerous lists of people like
Amanda Bindes, Britney Spears, of who else tell us tell
us your favorites, right, Oh, Katy Perry as you said,
Margot Kidder. Margot Kidders, I don't know who that is.
She played Lois Lane in the Christopher Reeve Superman movies
(24:00):
and she was found like wandering make it, I believe
in other people's yards in Beverly Hills. Yeah, she had
like a like an episode. She she was not low
and she was not gang stalked, but other people have been.
This is this is something related to mk ultra that
you will hear a lot. Some of us listening now
(24:21):
have asked us in the past to cover gang stalking
and we can do an entire episode on it. So well,
we'll just give you the broad strokes here. Gang Stalking
is the idea that a person, for one reason or another,
will be surreptitiously monitored and followed in person by a
(24:44):
group of unidentified people. So imagine you wherever you're at. Now,
imagine that you get up, you walk outside, and there's
someone in the distance in the corner. They have a
green hat one and you see them, but you don't know.
(25:04):
You know, you might not be in a town where
people wave at strangers. So you just keep walking and
go to a store. And while you're in the store,
let's say, you're feeling healthy, so you buy some juice
and some almonds, and then the person who rings you
up is looking at you weird. You look behind you
(25:24):
and there's someone in a green hat at the end
of Aisle three, pretending to shop, but just sort of
standing there, and you know they're pretending to shop, and
you know they're pretending to shop, and you leave walking back,
and as you're walking back, you see three other people,
possibly in green hats, possibly not uh, and they're all
(25:46):
just sort of standing around as if they're waiting for you.
One person is on the phone talking. You can't hear
what they're saying, but they are staring directly at you.
That's gang stalking. It's essentially the Truman Show. Right. If
you are Truman, it feels as though for the person
experiencing it, or who believing they're experiencing it, it it feels
like you are Truman, and it's a more malicious Truman show. Right.
(26:12):
So is this harassment is a paranoia? Is it good
old fashioned spycraft? All three of those answers, in at
least a few cases, are correct. You know what I mean? Yeah,
I mean, for for someone experiencing um, perhaps a short
term high paranoia situation or feeling like I can imagine this.
(26:37):
I think I've probably experienced like short term gang stalking
at the height of a time in my life when
I'm feeling unsure, or something where i just feel as
though everyone around me is out to get me, just
for a moment, you know what I mean. I think
we've all maybe experienced something like that where everything just
feels off um And there are a lot of people
out there who have experienced that before, and for perhaps
(26:59):
more deep sea to problems they've experienced that. But we
do know that that kind of surveillance on somebody, like
actual on the ground surveillance occurs, and it and it's
not that uncommon. It's not that uncommon. It's sloppy spycraft
because typically you would want your observer to be unnoticed.
(27:22):
But it also happens in other countries, especially authoritarian countries
or dictatorships. It will probably will probably phase out a
little bit as digital surveillance becomes overwhelmingly efficient. Yeah, at
this point, you could just get into somebody's cell phone
and then it could be on a table and you
(27:44):
got everything you need right right. And by the way,
we got a great email from our in essay. In
turn we did it was moving on. Congratulations and we'll
we'll go. Let's go to gang stocking in its own episode.
Let's make that an episode in the future. And in
the meantime, we'd like to hear your stories about gang stalking.
(28:05):
We'd like to uh know what you would like to
share with your fellow listeners. For now, it seems that
we have monarch as a as a thing that's universally
dismissed by a lot of the mainstream. We have gang stalking,
which is problematic, but we do know that mk ultra
(28:27):
is moving forward, at least in the legal system and
not here in the US. That's right, we have to
go to Canada for for a look into a class
action lawsuit. We're gonna do that right after another word
from our sponsor, Oh Canada. So we had spoken in
(28:51):
m k Ultra one oh one about the two unsuccessful
lawsuits here in the States related to mk Ultra. In Canada,
there is a class action suit in in the works
now survivors and families the people who were affected by
M k Ultrum and the c I a mind control
(29:12):
program at a place called McGill University's Allen Memorial Institute
in Montreal are going to sue Quebec and the federal
governments both the USA and Canada because of what they
say had been done to them five decades ago. You
can follow this group on Facebook Survivors Allied against Government
(29:34):
Abuse UH. The acronym would be SAGA with two ways
at the beginning, and this includes victims and family members
of victims of Canadians who participated in brainwashing experiments under
the supervision of a man named Dr Ewan Cameron. He
was director of the psychiatric hospital from the forties, fifties
(29:56):
and sixties. He did something that would be familiar to
fans of the cont roll group. He conducted these experiments
that were called deep patterning or psychic driving. What they
essentially did, it's through a number of a number of techniques.
They would try to erase the patient's memories, which is
(30:16):
not an impossible thing to do, and then go a
step further an attempt to reprogram them with new thoughts.
One of the examples of this would include forcing someone
to listen to repetitive audio loop over and over and
over again, four hours and hours on end, while also
(30:37):
drugging them to keep them in a comatose or semi
comatose unconscious state. So this could last for as long
as three days. Just you're you're put under, You're you're
administered like the food and water you need to survive,
and the entire time, there's some tape saying you know, um,
(31:01):
probably in the doctor's voice or maybe in your own voice. Yeah,
when when it's like I can only trust Dr Frederick.
Dr Frederick wants me, well, certainly most effective in your voice,
I think, as the patient, error as the subject, because
then it becomes your own inner dialogue and you're and
(31:23):
you're in a state of sensory deprivation when you're put under.
So yeah, so this is this is really weird, creepy stuff.
And if you want to an example of a fictionalized
version of it again, check out Control Group. It's available
right now, all episodes and season two is going to
be happening at some point. It's true. Yeah, it's a
creepy story. It's creepy story. The Canadian government gave Dr
(31:48):
Cameron roughly half a million dollars between nineteen fifty and
nineteen sixty five if we wanted to adjust for inflation
that's four million bucks US. They gave him four million
bucks and then the CIA also gave him money through
one of those front organizations that you mentioned our previous episode, Matt,
(32:10):
the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology. That's great.
So are we for it or again it? Yea, we
are refer are refer mk ultra in general, the various projects,
various projects. But let's hear some arguments for and against. Okay, um,
(32:35):
let's let's start with Monarch. That sounds good, yes, yes,
So the first thing we should be very very clear
about when you say four four or against, we're saying
four or against them actually existing, the veracity of these claims.
We're not. We're not arguing that we support projects. I mean,
that's your position. Okay, Yeah, that's true, that's true. Absolutely,
(32:56):
it is a democracy. But no, it's exactly I mean,
this is it's a cliche, but this is utterly shrouded
in mystery. There's a lot of conjecture that goes into
picking this stuff apart. So what are the arguments for
its existence versus against its existence? Okay? Well, okay, let's
again let's start with project Monarch. Right, Okay, we're talking
(33:17):
about how we got these f o I A documents
for mk Ultra in general. Right overall, there is nothing
in any of those documents that talk about ways to
implant demons and or use um ancient mysticism or anything
to that effect to have a thing called Project Monarch.
(33:38):
It doesn't exist. Right through. The primary evidence that you're
gonna find for Project Monarch is somebody online somewhere generally,
or speaking in a book or something saying I was
a part of Project Monarch as a victim slash subject.
I like this so intellectual exercise counterpoint. The majority of
(33:59):
mk Ultra documents were destroyed. It's true. It's true when
we say a counterpoint, it's a great counterpoint. Most of
them were destroyed. And you would probably want to destroy
something if you had anything written down about using demons
to manipulate people and create sex slaves. Yeah, I agreed.
(34:20):
You just toss off sex slaves just like nothing just now,
Well I did, because that's essentially what that is. Essentially
what the monarch is supposed to be about. Whether it's
a lot of times alleged it's a sex slave, like
an iconic sex slave like a Britney Spears or someone
that then projects out to millions of people across the planet.
(34:41):
What it what what it should be to be essentially,
or it's a single human being like who was being
you know, abused and like in in the shadows by
someone powerful. So we know that, unfortunately and tragically, we
know that the entertainment industry, from film to music and
(35:04):
so on, is rife with widespread, covered up sexual abuse.
We know that we know a lot of the people
who have done that are never going to see a
day in court. They're never gonna go to jail. But
some of them actually are now. But some yeah, a few, sure,
But I guess that's better than nothing. We also know
(35:24):
that intelligence agencies across the world use honeypot traps. Right,
That's where you get you get compromat, as the Russians
would call it, on someone by filming them in a
sexually compromising situation, usually with a paid professional sex worker,
(35:47):
but occasionally with someone who has been coerced into playing
that role, like the PP tape right, like the that
may or may not exist right from the Steel dossier
right for the current president. That's that's one of the
hot allegations. There is one funny story because we're we're
exploring some dark and disturbing things. I can at least
give us one um less terrible story. You can read
(36:12):
this in the War Is Boring The War is Boring
section on medium dot com by Darien Kavanaugh. The CIA
and the KGB both tried to blackmail Indonesia's first president,
a man who went by the name Sukarno, because Indonesia
played an important role in the Cold War between the
(36:34):
US and the USSR, which is all it all comes
back to that usually in this time in history, uh,
they decided to do a honey pot scheme. The KGB
operatives dressed as flight attendants and had group sexual relations
(36:55):
with the dictator. And then the CIA produced a you
essentially a pornographic film, and they thought that they would
be able to use this on the dictator. You know
what I mean, get in line with our ideas or
we will expose you, you dirty, dirty dog. And the
(37:18):
problem is the problem is it he was very happy
with it. He asked for copies. He liked to show
it to people. It was like, look like look where
the It's like look look, look, look look these are
flight attendants. Yeah. Yeah, He's like, you know, let me
(37:39):
play that part again. Somebody rewind this because this is like,
I'm really proud of this one. So this I hear.
That's the thing. A bunch of flight attendants get together
and film I'm important people. So uh so it did backfire, right,
and uh I think that's I think that's a hilarious story.
It's a hilarious story about evil people. But the reason
(38:01):
it's important is because each shows us that these sorts
of operations do exist. However, again to your point, Matt,
there is no mention of monarch and any mk ultrare documents.
There's no mention of monarch and anything official. Religious and
political scholars criticized Cathy O'Brien's claims because they say there
(38:22):
is absolutely no supporting evidence, and at this point there
is absolutely no supporting evidence. Uh. David G. Robinson characterized
them as symptomatic of something called moral panic and noted
that no one has ever been prosecuted of such crimes,
nor as any corroborate material evidence ever been produced. It
(38:43):
just stinks that you can't you can't just take that
for what it is, because you have to go back
to the point of if any of this was actually
happening happening, it would be suppressed so hard that maybe
just we would never know about it. Right. And also, um, also,
even if someone who is a survivor of abuse doesn't
(39:06):
have all of the facts or the dates at their command,
that doesn't mean that they're lying. And I've I've brought
with me today, uh an old friend of ours, this
book Outbreak, The Encyclopedia of Extraordinary Social Behavior, which is
about moral panics and how they spread. I highly recommend
(39:26):
this book for anyone who is um interested in seeing
just how quickly moral panics can spread. It's always the
idea of something either so morally reprehensible and against social
morays that are universally acknowledged to be good things. So
(39:47):
that would be stuff like cannibalism, child abuse, etcetera, all
all the terrible, terrible things, or something that is alarming
and possibly life threatening people are right. And because a
new report says that you will get eye cancer in
(40:09):
two weeks if you don't drink coffee, so the stores
all sell out a coffee. People are fighting over coffee.
And then later the same paper that published that publishes
a retraction on page ten and no one reads it,
and coffee prices go through the roof smart evil. Let's
do it right now, we can't, we just do it
(40:30):
on it. So it's true though, I mean, it doesn't
mean that people are stupid. It means that we're easily
led to We have this idea of what the right
thing to do is, and we want to be on
the right side of history, right, so we will do
what we can. And sometimes we should research, research this
(40:53):
stuff before we react to it. And then there's another
burning question. This is a big counterpoint no for four sense.
If this is true, if any of this is true,
then how are these Project Monarch survivors alive? How are
they publishing books? How are they writing about this and
not you know, committing suicide by getting tied into a
(41:15):
duffel bag or having and shot themselves twice in the
back of the head. Because it's not entirely true, I'm
asking like it seems like if there were an organization
this powerful, this story would never have gotten out. Right.
It certainly does seem like that, especially considering the purging
that went down. You know, yeah, great point. So where
(41:38):
is this name coming from? I mean, there there was
no the name wasn't in any kind of any kind
of documentation. Where where did this begin to circulate? Do
we even have an origin for that? The way this
information got out into the public records primarily from people
who say that they survived the program, So anecdotes and
are they corroborated, like are they people who knew each
other or I'm just I mean, I'm just wondering if
(42:01):
there is any connection between these people or this is interesting.
It's tricky because it goes back to the hypnotic regression question.
There may well be people who say they knew each
other now, but their story changed as their sessions continued.
There were also stories of people so in the universe
(42:24):
of this, people are not meeting one another under their
real names. You're nine years old, you meet a ten
year old who was called different names. These horrific things
occur to you. You never see that ten year old again,
but you learned that they have died. So it has
baked in difficulty when it comes to tracking or corroborating things.
(42:50):
And it's part of the Satanic panic. Honestly, the moral
panic that swept through the US and really peaked in
the nineteen eighties. If you were around in the nineteen eighties.
Then you you know about this, right, D and D
was the was a herald of dark Satanic times to come.
(43:11):
Everybody with any sort of authority that was not religious,
any secular power, was part of the illuminati. They were
dressing in robes, they were circling around, they were killing goats, children,
eating people, human flesh. Um. They were doing bohemian groves stuff,
but not with an effigy with people. Those are those
(43:32):
are the ideas. UH. This made some big careers in
journalism and in the publishing world, and at this point
still despite all the public attention, there's been no evidence
of a widespread event of this nature. And that's an
important point because it's not like it's just, um, the
(43:55):
five of us, you know, you listening to the three
of us and then mission control. It's not like it's
just five people looking into this. This was a nation.
These were news networks. They were pouring millions into this
search and they came up with bubkus. There have, however,
been several cases of child abuse networks functioning in the
(44:18):
halls of power UH in Belgium, in the US, in
the UK. These abuse networks are real, They're just not
necessarily satanic. And they're not necessarily tied to intelligence agencies,
at least the ones we found. And the the Satanic
angle is almost like and this is this is one
(44:40):
way to think about it. If you place Satanism and
the devil and that kind of evil on top of
something like this that may even be provable with in
some way or another, or um spoken about by enough
people if you put if you place those labels on it,
it be it becomes so crazy and out there that
(45:00):
it almost becomes impossible that that these kinds of abuse
networks could function at that level. Right, It makes you
believe that it's impossible when you bring the devil and
evil into it like that, rather than it just being
a group of powerful people that have really messed up
things that they like to do. Uh, Does that make
(45:22):
any sense? Does not to mention that the whole idea
of like secret Satanic organizations has been time and time
again disproven, Like the idea of like the whole Satanic
panic thing, it's a panic because no one's really doing
and in the way that you might think, you know
what I'm saying, like even like the the the child
murders at robin Hood Hill or whatever, like the the
idea that there are groups of quote unquote Satan worshippers
(45:46):
that are doing human sacrifices and stuff. I mean, it
was it's always to me, what's been proven out is
that it's much more of a form of protest and
kind of like a middle finger to the man and
like you know, organized religion than it is some kind
of shadowy cabal doing rituals and like a dungeon somewhere right.
And then the thing is that these two things are
(46:07):
these two practices are often conflated. There are criminals like
Jeffrey Epstein who repeatedly abused children, and they can have
cover up s occur, like Jeffrey Epstein who again repeatedly
abused children and as of now totally got away with it.
And then there are groups who are pursuing um a
(46:29):
religious or ceremonial thing, you know what I mean. Like
they get to like Anton LaVey is not a deistic Satanist.
It's not someone who acknowledges the existence of a Judeo
Christian Islamic God. And then some adversary and sided with
a bad guy, and they're very much against any kind
(46:50):
of abuse. You know, they get a bad rap, but absolutely,
but we do know that there are there are times
when this sort of child abuse draped in Satanic ritual
has occurred. True Detective Season one, which is fantastic, uh,
seems at least partially inspired by a genuine child abuse
(47:13):
network that operated out of a church in Ponchatoula, Louisiana.
For the record, the creator of the show, Nick Pizolatto,
initially said I had no idea this was a thing.
I don't know what you're talking about, but also said
that about a couple other aspects sort of lifted for
that first season two right right, right, exactly some of
the philosophical writings that Rust Cole's character spouted. I don't
(47:36):
remember who it was, but it was sort of a
modern day philosophy guy who he kind of lifted some
of those lines from. Absolutely, and maybe he should have
just come clean and been transparent about it. But we
also know there's an elephant in the room. Several of
us listening are are saying, how are you guys going
to talk about this kind of stuff? And not mentioned
(47:56):
the Catholic Church. Members of the Catholic Church actively covered
up numerous cases of child abuse for at the very,
very least decades and if current behavior or recent behavior
was any indication that we're looking at UM a phenomenon
that goes back centuries and it's so widespread that it's
(48:16):
at the very top of the organizational structure. Right, So
the more cynical among us will often regard monarch claims
as either a delusion, an indication of being mentally unwell,
or blatant cash grab. But there's no denying child abuses real.
There's no indication that the US government actively poured money
into a program designed to brainwash people through the abuse
(48:37):
of minors. And this brings up the phenomenon that we're
We've explored before, but it's key to this, and we've
been we've been getting closer and closer to that in
this episode the problem of individual actors Versus institutional actors
UH make up a name for a politician, Um Kringle okay,
(48:58):
so Kringle Rickenbach, representative in UH It's uh Idaho is
found to be committing UH flagrant repeated acts of abuse
of some kind of abuse, and Kringle Rickenbach turns out
has been getting really weird with it too. He wears
some kind of ritual mask. He's got a robe and
(49:21):
a a a little dance he does before he eats
people whatever. He's really messed up guy. But even even
though he's proven to have committed these he goes to jail.
He's insane. Uh. And this doesn't mean that the government
or the constituency he represented co signed this in any way.
They were voting for him because of his uh stance
(49:44):
on taxes and they did not know he was accountable.
So he's an individual actor. However, let's take a real
world case in the case of Jimmy Saville or several
Catholic priests, there's an institution that actively aids and a
bets the criminals involved. The Catholic Church covered up for
sexual abusers, and high society in England, including law enforcement
(50:08):
and including uh the government, right, Parliament, corporation, media corporations
of BBC. They covered up this, these crimes. And that
means it's a matter of institutional actors. So the big
question is people in the US government we're doing horrific,
dirty things. Were they doing it as individuals or were
(50:32):
they doing it as representatives of an institution. That's the
big question, and it's tough to answer. But we do
have some good news, at least for people seeking justice
in Canada. Remember that lawsuit we mentioned at the top
of this section. Well, let's let's get into that a
little bit. So, Um, the court, uh, the court still
has to certify certain things about this, right, but but
(50:55):
here's here's some quotations, some things we know about it
thus far. So there's this doctor and doctor Cameron, and
the lawsuit states that his tactics were nothing more than
an electronic lobotomy. And it also claims that he damaged
a lot of his other patients brains and shattered their
(51:16):
psyches and left them unable to function in a society
and within their families. So this one, doctor Cameron, really
did some seemingly horrific things, at least according to the lawsuit.
Right yeah, yeah, yeah, And uh, he died is since
passed away of a heart attack. The government of Canada
(51:39):
paid seventy seven of his victims a settlement of one
thousand dollars and rejected the claims of more than two
hundred and fifty others. So maybe just the most egregious
offending moments, I guess, and probably the way that large
governments where people who could provide a paper trail proving
where they were and when the case may go may
(52:03):
go to court. Hopefully it will, but according to the
National Post, the Government of Canada is going to be
in an antagonistic position for the course of this legal proceeding.
The Government of Canada asked a third party, a guy
named George T. H. Cooper, to conduct an inquiry into
Dr Cameron's d patterning work between nineteen fifty and sixty five,
(52:24):
and this Cooper report, which was concluded in said that
Canada did not hold any legal liability or moral responsibility
in respect to these treatments. So Canada said, uh, yeah,
hands up. We're both throwing our hands up like that.
Canada says not not us, not us, and uh McGill
(52:45):
University Health Center also said Cameron carried out these experiments,
but they were not responsible for his actions. So they're
also saying not us, not an institution and individual. And
this leads to some conclusions, or as close as we
can get at this point. Missing information about MK ultra,
(53:06):
it will continue to feed uh conspiratorial theories, claims, anecdotes
and so on, and we probably won't be we we
can disprove some stuff, but we will never be able
to fully understand what m k Ultra actually did exactly.
And there you know, it's so funny. The lack of
(53:30):
transparency here is the big issue, at least from the
government side. If the if these documents were available at
some point for everybody to see them, it would be
more of a oh wow, look look at what we
did back then. That's pretty brutal. Oh man, I hope
we at least gained some knowledge from that, from putting
(53:51):
all these people through this terrible trauma. Hopefully we can
get some justice for those people. But now it's just, um,
it's just a breeding ground for much worse ideas because
because of that lack of transparency. Yeah, exactly. We can
keep an eye on the Canadian lawsuit. Legally speaking, that's
(54:12):
the only thing continuing right now. And maybe maybe we'll
learn some more information about a specific project of mk ultra,
right and maybe that's how we get things. Maybe we
collect breadcrumbs. But that means it takes a long time
to build the whole loaf. You know, it sounds like
a whole podcast, just just a podcast and figuring out
(54:35):
figuring out culture is. While we talked about having Russell
targ back on that's true. It could be just the thing.
Let's just get him to host a show where he
remote views and to track down scientists who are involved
in MK ultra programs and then UH does hypnotic regression
on them and or remote viewing with them. It teaches
(54:57):
them to go back and remember and the pitch. Let's
do it. So also, I mean, also, we we are
reaching the point where, just due to the limitations of
human lifespan, a lot of people who could make a
deathbed confession have already died. You know what I mean.
We do want to include on a on a last note,
(55:20):
one of the most important things in any episode dealing
with this sort of subject matter is this, If you
are a survivor of abuse, or if you know someone
who has survived abuse, UH, please be aware that you
are not alone. There are numerous organizations, both government funded
(55:41):
and private, that are there for you to provide free counseling,
to provide resources, to provide therapy. We do hope that
you reach out to these sources. They are there for you.
There is someone waiting to help you. Absolutely, and if
you want to just share your thoughts or your story
with us. You can reach out to us where we
(56:03):
are at Conspiracy Stuff on Facebook and on Twitter. You
can find us on Instagram where we are at Conspiracy
Stuff show. And you guys also have Instagram accounts, that's true.
You can find me at Ben Bolan on Instagram. You
can find me at Embryonic Insider. There you go, and
(56:24):
you can also if you do like Facebook, you can
join our our group. Here's where it gets crazy, where
you can just talk to everybody on there. There's so
many of us that just want to learn more, and
it's a great place to have those open conversations with
everyone else. And if you don't want to do any
of that stuff, you can leave a message a voicemail
(56:46):
at one eight three three st d w y t K.
When do we start doing this unison thing? I don't
know what just happened organically, and now it's just part
of the fabric of the show. It's a chant at
this point, is it's an incantation. That's exactly what it is.
We're all about ritual here on stuff that don't want
you to know. Correct And just in that same vein,
(57:06):
you get three minutes to uh to engrave your voice
and your thoughts into the into our voicemailbox, and we
will we will hear it, and then possibly it will
get on the show at some point. You get three
minutes to do it. You can do multiples if you want,
but if you keep put short you get bonus points. Um,
(57:26):
just because it's a little easier to digest. Um. But yeah,
if you don't want to do any of that stuff,
you can write us a good old fashioned email. We
are conspiracy at how stuff Works dot com. Stuff they
(57:56):
Don't Want you to Know is a production of I
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