February 10, 2021 • 58 mins
The Republic of the Marshall Islands is a relatively tiny, remote place -- it's about halfway between Hawaii and Australia, with nothing but ocean on the horizon. And, for decades, this nation has been home to a terrifying secret. As the world entered the atomic age, the United States realized it needed a place to test its new weaponry, and to store the waste these nuclear experiments left behind. Tune in to learn more about US nuclear experiments in the Marshall Islands, and how the consequences of this conspiracy remain in the modern day.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to
(00:25):
the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol.
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul. Mission Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Today's story is a tragic continuing
saga and spoiler alert, it is a story that does
(00:49):
not at this point have an ending. However, we feel
it is important for more people to be aware of
this conspiray. See this cover up, this semi apocalyptic series
of very unfortunate events. This story comes to us, folks,
(01:10):
courtesy of one of your fellow listeners who left us
a message. Oh god, Matt, it was was it twenty nineteen?
Oh no, Ben, this actually came from this year, and
we just want to say thank you, anonymous teacher. We
would mean playing your voicemail right now, but you asked
us not to. Well we did. We did, of course
(01:31):
play it for ourselves as a group, but as we
always say, you know, we we want to respect people's
wishes for privacy. We didn't think he sounds scatter brained
at all. And anonymous teacher, you raised a very interesting point.
You also did something that I I love to hear,
which is you you mentioned some of your own research
(01:55):
in this matter. In the story of the Marshal I'm lands.
You Now, a lot of people have probably heard of
the Bikinia Toll, especially if you're if you're interested in
the history of nuclear testing, nuclear revolution. But there's a larger,
much larger story at play here. And to explore this story,
(02:19):
we have to first explore the Marshall Islands themselves, which
are going to be unfamiliar with a lot of people
in the US, especially if you have you don't have
any relatives in the military, or you haven't yourself been
a part of the military. So here are the facts.
The Marshall Islands are remote. Oh man, you thought driving, uh,
(02:43):
driving for a long weekend at a cabin in the
mountains was a hassle. Just look at all the stuff
you have to do to get from where you are
now wherever you're listening to this, all the way out
to the Marshall Islands. They are about halfway between Hawaii
and Australia, like right near the equator. And although it's
(03:04):
one sovereign country now as of nineteen seventy nine, it's
really two uh two kind of parallel chains, a very
of a lot of very small, very small plots of land. Uh.
It is considered and what's called an associated state of
(03:25):
the US. That means that since its constitution and independence
in nineteen seventy nine, it's a sovereign country, but as
a formal, very distinct unique relationship with the United States.
And we're gonna find out exactly why in this episode.
I don't know why I'm laughing. This is this is
(03:45):
a terrible thing. Uh. And even though it's it's a
pretty big area of ocean and island population wise, it's
a very small place, that's right. Uh. And estimated fifty
eight thousand, four hundred and thirteen human souls live in
this region, spread out across twenty nine coral a tolls. Uh.
(04:06):
And they're called that because they're they're they're almost like
many islands, like I mean, when you look at them
on an aerial view, they really just look like tiny
little specs um. And these a tolls are composed of
one thousand, one fifty six individual islands or islets. Uh.
Most live in the capital called Majuro UM. And it's beautiful.
(04:29):
You know, we're talking about crystal blue waters, you know,
island paradise type getaways. UM. It's incredibly remote, very low
crime rate, and for many, many years, thousands of years,
was the kind of place where you could kind of
go and live a life off the grid, uh, like
Robinson Crusoe style. Um. Unfortunately, due to a series of
(04:52):
unfortunate events lemony snaked style, this is no longer the case. Right. Yeah,
this this place has long history of human occupation dating
back to at least the second millennium b C. And
as the world and the countries in the world became
increasingly connected in the modern era, more and more governments
(05:19):
either half a world away or you know, closer to
that Pacific region, they became interested, intensely interested in controlling
the territory we know as the Republic of the Marshall
Islands today. As far back as nineteen fourteen, Japan was interested.
They were building bass military bases on the islands. And
(05:39):
then if you fast forward through the bloody events of
World War two in the Pacific theater. There you'll see
that after the United States defeated Japanese troops in the area,
they turned to as tolls of the Marshall Islands into
military bases themselves. So it's kind of like there are
(06:00):
two there are two things fighting, but neither of them
have the concerns of the native people at the front
of their minds. No, it's a it's a strategic place
to be if if you've got naval forces, it's a
strategic place to be. And it's also strategic if you
need to be isolated for some reason away from larger
(06:22):
populations ding ding ding. Yeah, and consider just the resupply
value it offers to So in the islands, due to
action by the UN, the islands become part of something
called the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. There's still
not a country. This was like the u N's idea officially,
(06:44):
but this trust territory is administered cough cough, controlled cough
cough by the United States. This is Uncle Sam's New
Island paradise, if you will. These kind of territory graps,
we should know, super common in any post war era. Uh,
(07:05):
go back to the first battles humans fought. They there
was usually a territory grap afterwards, and it was often
about territory, no matter what kind of ideology they put
over it. Uh. This is this happens for a number
of reasons. One, as you pointed out, Matt, to gain
control of a strategic point, either for shipping purposes, economic
(07:27):
purposes you could say, or to plan for future wars,
future areas that we could wage wage a good offense from,
or areas that we could easily defend. And then, of course,
the big badger in the bag of every war ever
claims to local resources. Every war you have seen, fought
(07:49):
or read about is about getting stuff from other people,
no matter how it's phrased. This makes the Martial Islands
Trust territory very strange in human history because the US
did have a plan for this region, but they didn't
want to take anything. Instead, they wanted to leave something,
(08:14):
something terrible behind. Here's where it gets crazy. Yeah, what
they wanted to leave behind was indeed something terrible. UM
is a byproduct of nuclear testing, as described by Tony
de Brum, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs and Health
(08:34):
UH in the U. S. Navy pulled into the lagoon
of the Bikini Atoll and told the one and sixty
seven people that were living there at the time that
they were going to use this land as a testing
site for nuclear weaponry. They were direct and how they
approached these individuals uh, But at the same time it
(08:55):
was something it was like a stick almost like they
like they've done it before. UH. The group phrase their
conversation in such a way, almost like you would with
something like eminent domain, where it's like, let us buy
you out, let us help you, help us, etcetera. They
phrased it in terms of quote seeking permission, but they
couched the mission as something that was the will of
(09:19):
God himself uh and would ultimately benefit all mankind. You
can't argue with God and the benefit of all mankind,
I would say, Um, it was a sacrifice they were
asking these people to make for the future safety of
the entire world. And so these small number of people
(09:39):
admittedly uh took off. They evacuated. They did. And now
remember here we're talking about a series of islands that
make up this thing that we call the Marshall Islands
or the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and they went
to one one little a toll and kicked people off
to do nuclear testing, which, as we all know, has
(10:02):
a bit of an area of effect. It's for the
greater good, though from from from the greater good. Well.
As an ad result of this, uh, pretty disingenuous approach, uh,
we learned that between ninety all the way up to
nineteen fifty eight, the United States ended up conducting no
(10:25):
less than sixty seven documented nuclear tests in the Marshal Islands.
It's just the nuclear test. The US conducted about twenty
three of these tests at Bikini a toll, and then
forty four near another atoll and a wattack. But the fallout,
to your point about the area of the of effect,
(10:46):
they'll fall out spread everywhere. It spread throughout the Marshall Islands.
And when we say we say test, we're not talking
about the nuclear equivalent of popping an m A D
or a flash bank. The overall yield of these tests,
due to one curve busting monstrous bomb, the overall yield
(11:08):
of these nuclear tests has been estimated to be to
work out to an average of one point seven Hiroshima
level detonations every day for twelve years. So this, this
is serious, This is unending Hiroshima. If you look at
the way, this is um this can be averaged across
(11:29):
the span of testing. And now with the benefit of retrospect,
we know much more about the tests than people did
during the time, even the people living there by the way,
who in some cases were not evacuated when the testing began.
So we're gonna pause for a word from our sponsors
(11:52):
and then will return. We're gonna dive deep into the
timeline and the specifics of these tests and why they
matter today. Okay, and we're back. We are still in
the Republic of the Marshall Islands, at least in the
(12:13):
present day. That's what it's known as. And we're going
to talk about something called Operation Crossroads, and that's what
we've been discussing here, the nuclear tests at the Bikinia
Toll and the nawak Atoll. So why would you do
nuclear testing there? We know that the United States had,
like in around that time in the forties, had been
(12:33):
testing nuclear weapons on American soil out there near Nevada,
in the testing grounds there and perhaps in a couple
other places. But you know, why would you go out
to a remote island to do this testing. Well, one
of the main reasons was because the military machine wanted
to know what happens to a naval vessel when a
(12:54):
nuclear explosion occurs. How far away does it have to
be to have any kind of effect, what are the
effects in general, and all these other questions that I'm
sure some some general had in their mind or some
admiral who wanted to know what was going to happen
in the future when a nuke went off nearer his vessel.
And I would imagine at a base level of secrecy
was very important here too, right, sure, yeah, you don't
(13:18):
want the American public, and to a degree, the martial
Ease public, to be able to raise a hand and say, hey,
this is crazy. We live in this area. Uh the
there's there are a couple of other advantages that were
nearby military bases. Uh. This area is also you know,
this is pre satellite surveillance nets, So this area is
(13:41):
also more difficult for enemy forces to to observe. Right,
everybody's gonna sense or figure out a nuclear detonation of
the this size. It's kind of a disturbance in the
force vibe at this level of energy. But they also
they also, we're doing a Nimby thing. Everybody knows that abbreviation.
(14:04):
Not in my backyard. The Trinity test did take place
in the heartland of America or the North American continent.
But now that we have discovered the process to make
a nuclear bomb, we want to build better ones. We
have to realize that post people are in post World
(14:28):
War two. Really, uh, the U. S. Public is going
to start asking increasingly difficult questions about why we're blowing
up stuff in our own country. So, not just the generals,
but the policy walks and Congress wanted to get in
front of this thing. And that's when they said, you know,
(14:48):
we've got this place. We can go nuts here. This
is this is the nuclear testing equivalent of Vegas, Baby roll.
The dice dropped the bombs, and that's exactly what they did.
And I asked you off, Mike, Um, you know, if
if we talked about this place being like an island, paradise, etcetera,
with such a low population. Um, And my question was
worth these are these transplants from other South Pacific nations
(15:13):
or are they would you consider these indigenous people? I
think the answer is a bit of both. But largely
it is they are indigenous people, correct, Yeah, yeah, so
they're Marshall's culture is part of the wider culture of Micronesia,
and if you look at the history of Marshalle's culture,
(15:34):
I don't know, we're kind of this is a little
off topic, but I'm going somewhere with this. We all
have friends in New York, and if you're not from
New York, or even if you are from the Big Apple,
you're well aware that New York has this weird thing
about when one can be called a local, right and
not just a tourist. What's the threshold? Is it like
(15:54):
eight years or so? I don't know the actual official number,
but it's certainly more than a couple Yeah, and so
so there's it seems like that's a micro cosmic equivalent
of the larger question, which is when do people become
considered indigenous people? Right? We know that with most continents
(16:16):
and land masses in the world, there was a migration
at some point in ancient history. So as far as
the question of indigenous you know, the people who live
in the Marshall Islands have a very close relationship with
the land and the and the sea. It forms part
of the community and part of the culture. And it
looks like they were part of I said, the second
(16:39):
millennium BC. Uh, it looks like they were part of
that larger wave of human migration three thousand years ago
that spread across the western Pacific Ocean. So I would say,
I would say, you know, I'm not doing New York
rules here, far be it. But I feel like if
you've lived in an area for that long, you can
(17:01):
be considered native. Right, Oh, totally. We're talking generations and uh.
I I didn't know this going in. But you know,
when you say that we refer to them as the
Marshalese people, they also have uh, the Marshalese language. That's correct. Uh.
And so there. This is what we're establishing here, is
that the Marshall Islands were by no means some kind
(17:24):
of empty room or some kind of barren, uninhabited place
where these tests could occur without consequence. The first testing
in the Marshall Islands occurred during something called Operation Crossroads,
and that's what that's what Matt was just talking about, folks,
the idea that we need to investigate the effects of
(17:45):
nuclear weapons on naval warships because of course the US
is not well, it's many things, but it's not foolish.
It's not naive enough to think that nuclear weapons will
stay a US joint for a long time. Other people
want the new toy, right, and when they get the
new toy, they're going to use it to break the
(18:07):
toys of their arrivals, like battleships, carriers, etcetera. So we
have to find out what happens before we see it
in the field. So well, and in some of the
some of the stuff surrounding the ear the early Operation Crossroads,
the actual testing that they did, there's some weird stuff,
and it's hard to imagine this was a spectacle, you know,
(18:28):
you think of nuclear testing. At least in the beginning
there it was a very secretive thing. We talked about
that you you can't let anyone know that we're testing
this weapon. You don't want your arrivals to know. But
as we got into really the thick of Operation Crossroads,
the US has already dropped a nuclear weapon to nuclear
weapons on a another country. And at this point it's
(18:51):
almost as if the US is wants to publicly show
the might again. But you do not hurt anybody just
to show that might off. So it's in the in
this one of the testing. I believe it's called able
shot or uh, I think shot able. Uh. They invited
(19:11):
a ton of people out to watch this thing. They
invited the press to come out. Hey, film this thing,
take pictures, Hey check this out. Let's talk about this,
Let's get in the news, so that, in my opinion,
so our allies and our enemies will notice similar to
a military demonstration, well, I mean it is basically military
(19:31):
demonstration with a little bit with a with a lab
coat on and a big, big bang. So shot Able
occurs on July one. This allowed various US authorities to
confirm the power of these weapons, and they determined some
scary stuff. They said, Wow, if there were any soldiers
(19:53):
on any ships up to a mile away from this explosion,
they would be killed instantly, no takebacks, no worries about
the lingering effects of radiation. It's just flipping off like
a very violent light switch. And then they followed up
with the shot Baker test later that month on July.
(20:14):
These these tests were the first time the US had
tested nuclear weapons since the days of Trinity in nine
and they were also the first nuclear detonations since you
know those days in August when Little Boy and Fat
Man were dropped over Nagasaki and Hiroshima. And when Operations
(20:35):
Crossroads ended, it was on August tenth. And get this,
they ended it because of very valid, pressing, terrifying concerns
over radiation and the effects radiation could have on the
human body. But they were worried about the human bodies
of soldiers they wear in a lot of people on
(20:56):
Uncle Sam's side saying ah, yeah, what about the people
who live here for longer than a tour of duty.
They also didn't worry about all the live animals that
they loaded onto the ships when they detonated the nukes
either to see what would happen was Ark style, Like
why were they was this to see the effects of
the radiation on the animals the blast and the radiation.
(21:20):
I mean, how do you think they figured out that
the soldiers would be killed instantly? Pigs, goats, and mice,
I think specifically? Okay, so the opposite of Noah's Ark
style basically, yeah, load onto a boat and kill them
all and see, well, well, see what will happen? Yeah,
(21:40):
that's the phrase they let's see what will happen, which
is You know, it's a it's a lot like um,
if you went to if you went to court for
murder because you shot someone point blank and you said
your honor wasn't trying to hurt anybody. I wanted to
see what would happen for science, dude, you know, I know.
(22:04):
H So this is this is a huge deal though,
and a lot of people in the US may be
aware of the testing, but there's not much attention being
paid to the people who are living in the Marshall Islands.
And they kept going. They kept going because this was
a perfect storm of opportunity. Right there's a post World
(22:27):
War lull. Uh. There's a huge boom in industry and
technology in the US because it's one of the few
Western places that was able to preserve its uh infrastructure.
You know, large parts of Europe are destroyed, like not
decades and decades of productivity were gone in an instant. Uh.
So they also didn't have a lot of people who
(22:47):
could stop them. That was key. We we've heard that
they evacuated or that these people I guess willingly evacuated
like hundred and sixty seven something people. And we're talking
about a collection of islands you know in the thousand,
are not in the thousands but over a thousand. So
how far would this site have been from like whatever
the metro center I believe Majora? How far would this
(23:10):
have been geographically from there? So the distance from Bikini
to Majora is eight hundred and twenty seven kilometers as
the crow flies, that works out to five fourteen miles,
got it, And the this is still by the way
that that might sound like it's a long way away,
(23:33):
but we have to remember these are nuclear weapons, and
there are multiple tests, so there is an aggregate cumulative
effect here. After operations Crossroads ends due to those concerns
about radiation for the soldiers. Only, Uh well, let's fast forward.
There's still tests going on. Nine. Then President Truman decides
(23:56):
that we're going to increase research into thermon nuclear weapons
because of our new freendemy, the USSR, and that the conflict,
the Cold War conflict was already kind of brewing towards
the end of World War two. Of course, uh so
to do this, to increase this amount of research, we
(24:19):
necessarily increase the amount of nuclear testing. And it turns
out we have one place, one place where we love
to test all these world ending toys. It's still the
Marshall Islands. So something called Operation Greenhouse begins in nineteen
fifty one, and then it goes to Operation Ivy in
(24:43):
November of nineteen fifty two. I don't know whether the
band is named after that, folks, but I had the
same question. Let's think about the same thing. I bet you,
I bet you they named it after the operation. I
would guess, But who knows, who knows? Who knows? But
you know, some of their songs still hold up. So
Shot Mike, you know, we had, we had those other
(25:03):
things we mentioned earlier. Shot Able. For instance, there's another
one called Shot Mike. It is the world's first known
successful test of a hydrogen bomb. And then, just a
little bit later, on November six, Uncle Sam conducted what
it called the King Shot, which sounds like a really
(25:24):
a really heavy tourist drink you would get in a
New Orleans bar or something. It also sounds like like
vaguely Hamiltonian. I don't know why, just because of the King.
And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna throw away my shot,
you know and all that? Yeah, oh yeah for sure, man,
And um, I don't mean to pull away from that stuff.
(25:45):
I just want to remind everybody the difference between an
atomic weapon like the ones that were dropped on Japan
versus what we're just now introducing here a hydrogen bomb.
Really the best way to think about it is the
scar aale of destruction and the radius at which leaf
that like instant lethality occurs. So if you can imagine
(26:07):
that when a nuclear weapon was dropped on Japan around
I think it's a radius of about a mile, people
were killed fairly instantly when or instantly when it was
dropped with a with a hydrogen bomb, you could increase
that by about five times or ten times, so like
(26:28):
five miles maybe ten miles in a radius where people
would just be instantly killed. Um, Just so everyone is aware,
especially when we're talking about proximity to the other people
who lived on the Marshall Islands, which is huge. Yeah,
it's very good point. It's very important distinction too. So
we're going to pause for a brief word from our
(26:48):
sponsors and then will return with the story of the
largest test, the one that is the reason we're looking
at an average of one point five Hiroshima's every day
for twelve years, and the inevitable fallout and the inevitable falling.
(27:13):
We've returned not to one, but to March first, ninety four,
the debut of something called code name Bravo, which is
objectively a really cool name for a terrible thing. It's
I think it's cool name. So the US conducted the
largest nuclear debtonation that country has ever conducted, even now
(27:39):
in the modern day, largest ever full stop on Uncle
Sam's part, it was called Castle Bravo. This took place
at the Bikinia Toll on March one uh and Bravo
was a fifteen mega ton hydrogen bomb that is alone
the equivalent of Horosha muh one thousand times. This was
(28:04):
only one of a series of thermonuclear tests, but it's
it's the big one, and it wasn't supposed to be this.
We talked about remember earlier and open skies. We talked
about how many close calls the human species has had,
especially with nuclear weapons, and we were talking specifically about
(28:26):
breakdowns and communication or interpretation of what other countries are
saying or signaling. In this case, we screwed it up
entirely on our own. This was the first device of
its kind we had the calculations. We thought our math
was solid, but we were so very wrong. And we,
(28:47):
meaning the scientists conducting this test, got got the math
so screwed up that when the bomb was detonated, it
it's nuclear yield was more than double what they had
planned for or expected as consequences. Wolf, That's all I
got to say about that. How do you how do
(29:09):
you miscalculate that that much? Uh, it's a new technology,
and you know they're they're testing, right, that's what this
thing is for. And they just didn't realize what it
was gonna do, how how big it was going to be.
And and like you said, there were consequence has been
the fallout did drift over into two inhabited areas there
(29:31):
in the islands, and around two hundred men and women
and children were living in the places where that fallout
kind of just spread right on top of And you know,
it's one of those things we've kind of been setting
up this the whole episode, right of the dangers here
for the inhabitants of these islands, and it happened one
(29:53):
aunt all Wrongloup. The people there found themselves instantly heavily
of acted by the fallout, and there of course their
ecosystem is affected too. And just just to clarify, these
are initial uh, physical effects, not like long term stuff
like we hear about with other you know, like the
(30:14):
the big picture of radiation. These are direct burns um
you know, on people's bodies, uh, and very quick onset
of radiation diseases. Yeah, exactly. So when you're talking about widespread,
heavy contamination like this, you think of it in terms
(30:36):
of either two clocks, or maybe it's better to think
of it in terms of the hour hand and the
minute hand. So the stuff that happens first, those consequences,
the burns, the sickness, the radiation poisoning, that's the minute hand,
and it's going tick tick tick, and you're seeing the results.
But the bill really comes due with what the what
(31:00):
who called the hour hand, which is the long tail
effects of these things, which are very serious and can
take decades to manifest. And that's a problem for the
victims in these situations because then it makes it a
little more difficult to prove that someone is suffering from
a medical condition because of something that happened twenty years ago.
(31:21):
You know what I meant, a lot of room for
unethical defense lawyers to play ball on that field. So
add to this, the military, the U. S Military did
evacuate these residents as well. About two days after the
test is when they got around to it. And uh,
(31:43):
the people of the Marshall Islands, the Marshal Ease were
not informed of the potential dangers. It was all very much,
you know, glory to the greater good. We're making the
world a better place. You're sacrificing. But they were under
they were under the impression that the sacrifice they were
making was moving for a little while. It was a
very different sacrifice involved. A senator of the Marshal Islands
(32:08):
named Jetton and Jane explained the effects of Castle Bravo
in in a powerful and powerful and disturbing way. He says,
five hours after the detonation of this device, it began
to rain radioactive fallout. That wrong Lap the atoll was
covered with a fine white powder like substance. And listened
(32:32):
to this part. No one knew it was radioactive fallout.
The children played in the snow, they ate it. How
How would you know? How would you know? Yeah? Oh
that is rough, man, It just gets rougher. And the
people of Wrongelap came back, but officials and scientists that
(32:55):
we're working for the a c UM decided that radio
shan was still at play and and still very much
a problem. Well, yeah, as we said, I mean, that's
not that's not enough time. Three years as we said this,
and we're gonna talk about later. The stuff comes in
twenty years later as cancer and in birth effects and
(33:16):
all of the terrible things. Yeah, so there's this. Uh,
there's a later report that comes out in two thousand four,
and it found between the years of nineteen forty six
and nineteen fifty eight, the the full amount of contamination
that would have been generated there was in an excess
of five hundred and thirty cancers. Yes, what that means
(33:38):
is in that in that estimate, in that analysis, they said, okay,
what are the average incidents of cancer in the population,
If all things are the same in this test never happened,
can we tell whether this radiation increased cancer? And the
answer is, guess, five hundred and thirty times. People are
(34:00):
just people are more and more likely to get cancer
that we can trace back in two thousand and four,
and again it's a little difficult as time passes. So
that number is probably it's probably lower. Uh, that estimate
is probably lower than the actual number. I mean to say.
And two thousand five, the National Cancer Institute said the
(34:22):
risk of contracting cancer for people exposed to this fallout
like your chance of getting cancer after this one out
of three. That means that if the three of us
on stuff that wants you to know today were in
the Marshal Islands at that time, one of us would
get cancer. And those are terrible, terrible odds. Two or
(34:43):
three decades after the testing ended, this is where the
hour hand begins to tick multiple like many many adult
citizens of the Marshal Islands developed cancerous thyroid nodules, an
associated health risk increase as well. I mean, your community
is shattered. You have to leave the home where you
(35:06):
know generations before you lived, and that gives you stress.
People have PTSD. That also, coupled with some other social
factors like the importation of Western diet with the military,
leads to diabetes, obesity, things that do not help you.
If you are contracting cancer and living in an I
(35:27):
radiated area. It's um. It's rough because later the National
Cancer Institute comes back in and they say, and we
looked at all the cancer between the Marshal Islands and
we The Cancer Institute reports found one point six of
(35:49):
all cancers at least during this time period in the
Marshall Islands are directly attributable to radiation from nuclear testing.
What this means is that the US, no, I won't
say on purpose, but the US, through negligence, gave these
innocent people cancer. There's no way around it. They would
(36:10):
not have had cancer if there have not been nuclear
weapons exploding so often for so long. Uh So, so
we're saying one point six of all cancers that were
developed on all of the islands, okay, because some places
got hit, uh hit much harder, right the Northern a Tolls.
(36:33):
The same study found that in the Northern Atrolls, fifty
five of all cancers are the result of this fallout,
more than half dan and that that one was specifically
just for the Castle Bravo test alone, the giant one
right right. Um, And then you know, moving on into
(36:53):
the seventies, the US does you know, agree that some
mistakes were made? I don't. Maybe maybe the implicated. They
didn't directly say it, but they did agree to clean
up the mess as much as possible, uh to clean
up the islands. UM. They took the crater from a
previous bomb test on Runnett Island UH. And this was
(37:15):
the Defense Nuclear Agency, by the way, and they built
a dome to store nuclear waste UM. And this is
you know, we we see this in other sites around
the United States, for example of the Savannah River site
and near Augusta, Georgia, where I grew up. UM is
a legacy UM containment site for UH spent nuclear weapons.
(37:38):
And they would store a lot of this material in
UH pits that they would dig in line and UM
you know, bury this stuff. And they realized over time
that some of those liners leaked and leached all of
that stuff into the soil. UH. They had a similar
response here. The Defense Nuclear Agency built this dome to
(37:58):
store the nuclear waste, and they built inside of it
a three seventy seven ft wide concrete enclosure that holds
more than three point one million cubic feet. So this
is a pit that is the equivalent of thirty five
Olympic sized swimming pools filled entirely with radioactive soil and
(38:20):
debris UM that contained lethal doses of plutonium, all directly
as a result of of the US activities here, and
it gets worse. This isn't this isn't just the nuclear
trash from marsh from the Marshall Islands test. The US
took stuff from Nevada and put it on a boat
(38:44):
and brought it there and buried it. Again, not in
my backyard. They nimbied this. This structure today is in
danger of collapsing. It is deteriorating over time, and the
big concern is that it could soon reach even more
of a crisis level due to the rising seas. It could. Uh,
(39:08):
you know, this was a problem with Fukushima as well,
when the ocean gets involved. Uh. Nuclear weapons are an
unstoppable force, but so is the ocean for now. And
and shout out, as our anonymous teacher pointed out, shout
out to the excellent work of the l A Times
reporting on this situation, because there there were we'll look
(39:34):
back at this in a second, but there's a solid
case that the US engaged in a series of cover
ups here. A lot of the stuff that they were
doing was classified at the time, and you could say,
of course I had to be because it was nuclear testing.
But they also found it was the LA Times who
found that the US had taken a hundred and thirty
(39:54):
tons of a radiated soil from a Nevada testing site
and dumped it there into a dome, and they had
also conducted biological weapons test so it wasn't just nuclear.
They were like, hey, well we've got this testing thing.
Let's you know, let's take the anthrax around around the
block first spin. Let's just we want to hurt anybody,
Let's just see what happens. Yeah, that's another thing that's
(40:17):
generally a no no exploding. Eventually, it's not always you know,
against international law to do that kind of thing, but
it's never a good look when you're seen testing biological
weapons and the bill comes due, you know. Nowadays it
is Nowadays there are computer models that have the they're
(40:39):
sophisticated enough to predict some of the stuff that you
could in the past only find out through actual physical testing.
But still there's there's not really an excuse for it
because again, people live there and you can still see
the dome today. Locals call it the tomb. It's been
described is a nuclear coffin burying the secrets of the
(41:03):
US as well. Officials in the Marshall Islands lobbied the
US government multiple times for help. American officials initially declined
to help with this clean up. They said, get this, Well,
the dome is on marshal Ease Land, and you know,
post nineteen seventy nine, you're a sovereign country. Uh so
therefore it's the responsibility of your sovereign government. Hashtag not it.
(41:27):
That land is your land, that lands not my land,
just because we tested. Sorry, that's perfect. That sucks. That
song sucks. Uhly, God, No, it's true that I mean,
oh wow wow. Talk about like a Little Red Hand
(41:48):
type situation. You remember that fable where all the other
ants like a reverse little red hand, where all the
other animals wanted to eat the bread that the little
Red Hand spent all this time making, but at the
end she said, you can't have the bread because I
made it. This is literally the other way around, where
it's like you can't have the bread that we made.
That is going to kill you. Never mind, it's bad.
(42:10):
It's a bad analogy. No, No, I think it's it's good.
I've got a bad one too, or at the very least,
it's crass. Uh. It's disturbingly similar to someone like two
people hooking up and Uh, someone saying, hey, in addition
to ruining my apartment when we hooked up, I think
(42:33):
I am pregnant, and then the other person saying, you
will be a fantastic single mother, and I wish you
the best of luck with your apartment. Uh. And in
this case, obviously, the child is nuclear waste. That's what happened. Boy,
are we gonna get in trouble for that one? Do
we need? No? No, I know it's good. I don't.
(42:54):
I don't. I think it's it's it's better than mine.
And it paints a good it paints a disturbing picture
been yoursle right, the child is nuclear waste, and yeah,
it's like we're not going to give you anything. We're
not gonna help you. In fact, that they went even further.
The folks that were left to clean up our mess
weren't even helped in the in the most basic ways,
(43:16):
which you think they would at least provide them some
kind of protective equipment. You know, has matt suits or
what have you rat rat suits if you're a Fallout fan.
But no, not not even that. So there is there
is an argument to be made where you could say, well,
maybe this was just a matter of not knowing the
(43:36):
full extent or the full potential danger of this kind
of exposure, because again this was early in the days
of nuclear testing. But how much water does that hold?
How much nuclear waste fits in that rationalization, dome I
would say not a ton, especially when consider that the
(43:57):
journalists at the Times dove deep into the They interviewed
every martial ease US official who had talked to them
about this. They went through thousands and thousands and thousands
of declassified documents, and they found that the US did
know some key pieces of information here, and they purposely
(44:17):
withheld it from the government of the Marshall Islands. So
they didn't tell them about the weapon testing program. They
didn't tell them about the stuff that was actually inside
this dome UH. And the reason they didn't tell them,
the reason they covered it up, is because they were
pushing to sign a deal in nineteen eight six that
(44:38):
would release the US government from any further liability regarding
these UH, these tests, and this this deal is important,
it's still ongoing. But under this deal they were supposed
to pay settlements, right pay fines and also helped the
population of the country while also cleaning up and payting
(44:59):
for a clean up. Right. So there's another study that
was published by Columbia University scientists and they found that
levels of radiation in certain parts of the Marshall Islands
even today rival the radiation levels found at Chernobyl and Fukushima.
I would also argue that the the siloing and withholding
(45:23):
of information rivals Chernobyl. Yeah, information control sometimes it's a
necessary thing, but it's always it's always just so gross.
It's usually not necessary. It's a really tough thing. We've
got a story like this that is based on you know,
historical misdeeds or wrongdoing, like al right, wrongdoing by some country,
(45:48):
and then you can clearly trace the effects and the
problems to present day and the future. Where it's such
a long lasting issue. It's it isn't very often that
we we hit on one of those topics, and this
is certainly one, and it's I'm I'm just so grateful
to our listener who put us onto this, and my goodness,
(46:11):
maybe we can find a way to help in some way.
I don't know how, but I don't know what we do.
We don't have the resources. Well, yeah, we don't have
much experience cleaning up nuclear waste, which I've always thought
is a is a um a weak point of our podcast. Um,
I would agree with you there, Ben, Yeah, but we uh,
we do know that there is an official holiday coming up,
(46:35):
the Remembrance Day on March two every year, which honors
the victims and the survivors of nuclear testing. Throw a
holiday at it, right, Well, it raises visibility at least,
you can say that now if you if you are
a resident of the US and you want to see
(46:57):
further US action in this area, you can always right
to your local representatives. Uh. Your individual results may vary
in that regard, unfortunately. Uh. But the facts, the facts
are the same. Areas of the Marshall Islands have radiation
levels that are almost double of what is safe for
(47:18):
human human habitation overall. As time passes, the islands are
slowly becoming less radioactive as long as that dome doesn't crack. Right. Um,
but we If you ask somebody, when will the Marshal
Islands be free of radiation? When can people return to
(47:38):
bi Kenya toll? The answer is really, I don't know.
No one, No one is sure. The capital city we
mentioned is overcrowded due to ritings and sea levels and
dozens of other things. It's becoming increasingly polluted. Their clean
up efforts that continuous, were recording the show today, and
(47:59):
the marsh Ali's government continues to rightly, I would say,
advocate for compensation. Why is this important now? Why are
the events of more than half a century ago still
relevant today? Well aside from the radiation, that six deal
comes up for renegotiation in Tree. So there is a
(48:23):
goal or milestone to push your representatives for if you
think the U should be doing more in regards to this.
And again, look, we're just being honest here. We're not
doing a hit piece on the United States. These are
just facts. This was a real conspiracy. Where do these
territories fall in terms of, you know, legislative representation. It's
(48:43):
a good question. So again, since nineteen seventy nine, the
Republic of the Marshall Islands has been a sovereign country. However,
due to the nature of the relationship between the US
and the Marshall Islands, if you're from the Marshall Islands,
you can travel to the US very easily. In theory
or legally, it's very easy, and the same if you
(49:06):
are a US citizen who decides to go to the
Marshall Islands. So it's kind of a gray area then
almost right, Well, it's part of it is the that
thing we mentioned at the top, the fact that it's
what's called an associated state, so they have kind of
a special unilateral deal, so we can do what we
will with them, but don't really give them any protection
(49:29):
or representation. Yeah, it's similar to I mean, it's not
the same thing as a territory like Puerto Rico right
now is a territory, meaning that it does not have
the representation in the government that a state would have,
right and and the Marshall Islands doesn't have that either.
They do have embassies and um and of course a
(49:51):
big U. S military presence, but it's still kind of
it's still kind of World War two era United States
keeping that specific foothold, you know, for the next war.
And I'm sorry to to to harp on this, but
I mean, so doesn't that make our actions almost like
a form of like occupation, like to to go in
(50:12):
there and tell people to leave and just do these
tests like what's the legal framework that makes that not
a complete like active war or you know, I mean,
maybe that's overstating the case a little bit. But I'm
confused in terms of diplomacy, how we can justify what
we did even if it didn't cause all the problems
(50:33):
that it caused. Well, the art of diplomacy is the
art of finding a way to justify anything you please. Unfortunately, UH,
there's a big business. But at the time these testingcred
remember the Martial Islands were not yet a sovereign country.
That's right, got it. So the timeline, it gets a
little fuzzy. There's a lot, a lot of moving parts
(50:53):
in this one. But that fascinating and heartbreaking story. Yeah,
and this is where we're at. So there's a bunal
that is established that was established in two years after
that six agreement has been to keep an eye on
the payments and the compensation the US is supposed to offer.
They concluded that the US needs to pay two point
(51:17):
three billion dollars in claims. Congress and the U S
courts have refused. Uh, and documents show the US has
paid a grand total of mission control. Can we get
a drum roll? Four million dollars? Wolf? But you guys,
it's okay, it's all, it's all okay. None of that
(51:37):
matters because in the United States government concluded that all
of this stuff that leaking nuclear waste from the tombs
a k a. The dome, all that stuff is safe.
You don't even have to worry about it anymore because
don't even worry about it. Who thanks, Uncle Sam. I
feel great now. You know what, anyone any one out
(52:00):
there listening, I help one of you is like an
associate producer at John Oliver's show, I need you to
get John Oliver to do an episode on this because
if we do want to do something good for this,
to raise some awareness or to start some surreptitious uh
campaign to raise money without people realizing they're raising money
(52:22):
for the marshal these people, uh, he could do it.
No one can shame the US government into action like
John Oliver. Yeah. Yeah, big fans here, John, if you're listening,
And it always I don't know, you guys, it always
makes my day when over the time we've been doing
this show where we we end up doing an episode
(52:44):
and then later the rest of the world decides that
we're not crazy and it did matter. Like it doesn't
happen all the time, but it's a beautiful moment. Give
us that beautiful moment. John, if you, if you feel
so inclined and and help these, help the folks in
the more islands out You're right, met. That official report
did conclude that the nuclear dome is not in danger
(53:07):
of imminent collapse. But we have to remember island nations
are fighting rising sea levels and within our lifetime, so
it is quite possible that we may see a country
like the Maldives become entirely underwater and have to relocate
the entire concept of its country to another safer land mass.
(53:31):
Well and not not to you know, have to rose
colored glasses about it. But at least we are transitioning
into an administration that acknowledges the science of climate change
and rising sea levels and things like that at least,
but still denies that the nuclear waste. No, I'm just
(53:51):
trying the administration thinks about the dome. Well, okay, here's
the thing. And this is gonna make me sound very
cynical and may be a little bit too real politic.
The a change in administration or a change in domestic
business can make an enormous difference. So if you hate,
(54:14):
you know, we always say in the US, if you hate,
what's happening during one term. Just wait four years, you know,
and it'll it'll change, often in a way that reverses
other stuff. But we have to understand outside of the
bubble of the United States, the face has changed, but
a lot of the interventionist policies remain the same. It's
(54:36):
not as if these international initiatives that have been in
play for decades and yes, including conflicts and wars and
disputed territories. It's not as if they all of a
sudden get a get a ping on their on their keeper.
I don't know why. I picture whomever is here having
a beeper and they get a beeper ping and it
(54:57):
says like a new president three three or whatever, and
they say, okay, stop, we'll stop now, We'll stop making
so much money. And then the nuclear way says, oh,
we'll stop degrading right now, right right, um. But yeah, hopefully,
hopefully the world can cooperate on this. One other thing
(55:17):
that came out of this, by the way, is that
the Marshall Islands are on the forefront of pushing against
pushing for nuclear disarmament. They say, you know, we don't
want anything like this to happen to anyone, and that's
where we leave it today. We we also have to
we have to ask you some questions, folks. What should
(55:42):
the US government do? What should the international community to
do in this regard? Is the US really doing all
it all it can? Are these good faith efforts now
decades later? If you have visited the Marshall Islands or
if you live there now, we'd also love to hear
your perspective, What is life like there? Um is? Are
the effects of this still readily apparent? And you were
(56:05):
neck of the global woods? Let us know. We try
to be easy to find online. You can find us
on Twitter and Facebook where we are Conspiracy Stuff. On
Instagram we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you want to
check out one of the coolest Facebook groups, check out
Here's Where It Gets Crazy or is it a page
whatever it is. It's called Here's Where It Gets Crazy
(56:26):
and it's on Facebook and you can find a lot
of your conspiracy realists there and you can have cool
conversations with some of the best mods in the business
running the show. I think it's a group for sure. Okay,
it's a group. You don't want to do that, you
can give us a call. We've got a hotline toll
free like the old days, remember that one eight three
s t d w y t K. As Matt mentioned
(56:48):
in our last episode, we have been getting a flurry
of fabulous voicemails from you. Yes, you, so, if you
would please limit it to one three minute message, let
us know what to call you and make sure you
let us know if it's okay to use your voice,
because we prefer to do that if possible, Or if
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(57:11):
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This show does not occur without you. You can pop
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(57:32):
have thought of in the past, and ones that I
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If you don't care for social media, if phones are
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(57:53):
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(58:18):
Don't want you to Know is a production of I
heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart radio, visit
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listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome back to
(00:25):
the show. My name is Matt, my name is Nol.
They called me Ben. We're joined as always with our
super producer Paul. Mission Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you,
You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't
want you to know. Today's story is a tragic continuing
saga and spoiler alert, it is a story that does
(00:49):
not at this point have an ending. However, we feel
it is important for more people to be aware of
this conspiray. See this cover up, this semi apocalyptic series
of very unfortunate events. This story comes to us, folks,
(01:10):
courtesy of one of your fellow listeners who left us
a message. Oh god, Matt, it was was it twenty nineteen?
Oh no, Ben, this actually came from this year, and
we just want to say thank you, anonymous teacher. We
would mean playing your voicemail right now, but you asked
us not to. Well we did. We did, of course
(01:31):
play it for ourselves as a group, but as we
always say, you know, we we want to respect people's
wishes for privacy. We didn't think he sounds scatter brained
at all. And anonymous teacher, you raised a very interesting point.
You also did something that I I love to hear,
which is you you mentioned some of your own research
(01:55):
in this matter. In the story of the Marshal I'm lands.
You Now, a lot of people have probably heard of
the Bikinia Toll, especially if you're if you're interested in
the history of nuclear testing, nuclear revolution. But there's a larger,
much larger story at play here. And to explore this story,
(02:19):
we have to first explore the Marshall Islands themselves, which
are going to be unfamiliar with a lot of people
in the US, especially if you have you don't have
any relatives in the military, or you haven't yourself been
a part of the military. So here are the facts.
The Marshall Islands are remote. Oh man, you thought driving, uh,
(02:43):
driving for a long weekend at a cabin in the
mountains was a hassle. Just look at all the stuff
you have to do to get from where you are
now wherever you're listening to this, all the way out
to the Marshall Islands. They are about halfway between Hawaii
and Australia, like right near the equator. And although it's
(03:04):
one sovereign country now as of nineteen seventy nine, it's
really two uh two kind of parallel chains, a very
of a lot of very small, very small plots of land. Uh.
It is considered and what's called an associated state of
(03:25):
the US. That means that since its constitution and independence
in nineteen seventy nine, it's a sovereign country, but as
a formal, very distinct unique relationship with the United States.
And we're gonna find out exactly why in this episode.
I don't know why I'm laughing. This is this is
(03:45):
a terrible thing. Uh. And even though it's it's a
pretty big area of ocean and island population wise, it's
a very small place, that's right. Uh. And estimated fifty
eight thousand, four hundred and thirteen human souls live in
this region, spread out across twenty nine coral a tolls. Uh.
(04:06):
And they're called that because they're they're they're almost like
many islands, like I mean, when you look at them
on an aerial view, they really just look like tiny
little specs um. And these a tolls are composed of
one thousand, one fifty six individual islands or islets. Uh.
Most live in the capital called Majuro UM. And it's beautiful.
(04:29):
You know, we're talking about crystal blue waters, you know,
island paradise type getaways. UM. It's incredibly remote, very low
crime rate, and for many, many years, thousands of years,
was the kind of place where you could kind of
go and live a life off the grid, uh, like
Robinson Crusoe style. Um. Unfortunately, due to a series of
(04:52):
unfortunate events lemony snaked style, this is no longer the case. Right. Yeah,
this this place has long history of human occupation dating
back to at least the second millennium b C. And
as the world and the countries in the world became
increasingly connected in the modern era, more and more governments
(05:19):
either half a world away or you know, closer to
that Pacific region, they became interested, intensely interested in controlling
the territory we know as the Republic of the Marshall
Islands today. As far back as nineteen fourteen, Japan was interested.
They were building bass military bases on the islands. And
(05:39):
then if you fast forward through the bloody events of
World War two in the Pacific theater. There you'll see
that after the United States defeated Japanese troops in the area,
they turned to as tolls of the Marshall Islands into
military bases themselves. So it's kind of like there are
(06:00):
two there are two things fighting, but neither of them
have the concerns of the native people at the front
of their minds. No, it's a it's a strategic place
to be if if you've got naval forces, it's a
strategic place to be. And it's also strategic if you
need to be isolated for some reason away from larger
(06:22):
populations ding ding ding. Yeah, and consider just the resupply
value it offers to So in the islands, due to
action by the UN, the islands become part of something
called the Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. There's still
not a country. This was like the u N's idea officially,
(06:44):
but this trust territory is administered cough cough, controlled cough
cough by the United States. This is Uncle Sam's New
Island paradise, if you will. These kind of territory graps,
we should know, super common in any post war era. Uh,
(07:05):
go back to the first battles humans fought. They there
was usually a territory grap afterwards, and it was often
about territory, no matter what kind of ideology they put
over it. Uh. This is this happens for a number
of reasons. One, as you pointed out, Matt, to gain
control of a strategic point, either for shipping purposes, economic
(07:27):
purposes you could say, or to plan for future wars,
future areas that we could wage wage a good offense from,
or areas that we could easily defend. And then, of course,
the big badger in the bag of every war ever
claims to local resources. Every war you have seen, fought
(07:49):
or read about is about getting stuff from other people,
no matter how it's phrased. This makes the Martial Islands
Trust territory very strange in human history because the US
did have a plan for this region, but they didn't
want to take anything. Instead, they wanted to leave something,
(08:14):
something terrible behind. Here's where it gets crazy. Yeah, what
they wanted to leave behind was indeed something terrible. UM
is a byproduct of nuclear testing, as described by Tony
de Brum, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs and Health
(08:34):
UH in the U. S. Navy pulled into the lagoon
of the Bikini Atoll and told the one and sixty
seven people that were living there at the time that
they were going to use this land as a testing
site for nuclear weaponry. They were direct and how they
approached these individuals uh, But at the same time it
(08:55):
was something it was like a stick almost like they
like they've done it before. UH. The group phrase their
conversation in such a way, almost like you would with
something like eminent domain, where it's like, let us buy
you out, let us help you, help us, etcetera. They
phrased it in terms of quote seeking permission, but they
couched the mission as something that was the will of
(09:19):
God himself uh and would ultimately benefit all mankind. You
can't argue with God and the benefit of all mankind,
I would say, Um, it was a sacrifice they were
asking these people to make for the future safety of
the entire world. And so these small number of people
(09:39):
admittedly uh took off. They evacuated. They did. And now
remember here we're talking about a series of islands that
make up this thing that we call the Marshall Islands
or the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and they went
to one one little a toll and kicked people off
to do nuclear testing, which, as we all know, has
(10:02):
a bit of an area of effect. It's for the
greater good, though from from from the greater good. Well.
As an ad result of this, uh, pretty disingenuous approach, uh,
we learned that between ninety all the way up to
nineteen fifty eight, the United States ended up conducting no
(10:25):
less than sixty seven documented nuclear tests in the Marshal Islands.
It's just the nuclear test. The US conducted about twenty
three of these tests at Bikini a toll, and then
forty four near another atoll and a wattack. But the fallout,
to your point about the area of the of effect,
(10:46):
they'll fall out spread everywhere. It spread throughout the Marshall Islands.
And when we say we say test, we're not talking
about the nuclear equivalent of popping an m A D
or a flash bank. The overall yield of these tests,
due to one curve busting monstrous bomb, the overall yield
(11:08):
of these nuclear tests has been estimated to be to
work out to an average of one point seven Hiroshima
level detonations every day for twelve years. So this, this
is serious, This is unending Hiroshima. If you look at
the way, this is um this can be averaged across
(11:29):
the span of testing. And now with the benefit of retrospect,
we know much more about the tests than people did
during the time, even the people living there by the way,
who in some cases were not evacuated when the testing began.
So we're gonna pause for a word from our sponsors
(11:52):
and then will return. We're gonna dive deep into the
timeline and the specifics of these tests and why they
matter today. Okay, and we're back. We are still in
the Republic of the Marshall Islands, at least in the
(12:13):
present day. That's what it's known as. And we're going
to talk about something called Operation Crossroads, and that's what
we've been discussing here, the nuclear tests at the Bikinia
Toll and the nawak Atoll. So why would you do
nuclear testing there? We know that the United States had,
like in around that time in the forties, had been
(12:33):
testing nuclear weapons on American soil out there near Nevada,
in the testing grounds there and perhaps in a couple
other places. But you know, why would you go out
to a remote island to do this testing. Well, one
of the main reasons was because the military machine wanted
to know what happens to a naval vessel when a
(12:54):
nuclear explosion occurs. How far away does it have to
be to have any kind of effect, what are the
effects in general, and all these other questions that I'm
sure some some general had in their mind or some
admiral who wanted to know what was going to happen
in the future when a nuke went off nearer his vessel.
And I would imagine at a base level of secrecy
was very important here too, right, sure, yeah, you don't
(13:18):
want the American public, and to a degree, the martial
Ease public, to be able to raise a hand and say, hey,
this is crazy. We live in this area. Uh the
there's there are a couple of other advantages that were
nearby military bases. Uh. This area is also you know,
this is pre satellite surveillance nets, So this area is
(13:41):
also more difficult for enemy forces to to observe. Right,
everybody's gonna sense or figure out a nuclear detonation of
the this size. It's kind of a disturbance in the
force vibe at this level of energy. But they also
they also, we're doing a Nimby thing. Everybody knows that abbreviation.
(14:04):
Not in my backyard. The Trinity test did take place
in the heartland of America or the North American continent.
But now that we have discovered the process to make
a nuclear bomb, we want to build better ones. We
have to realize that post people are in post World
(14:28):
War two. Really, uh, the U. S. Public is going
to start asking increasingly difficult questions about why we're blowing
up stuff in our own country. So, not just the generals,
but the policy walks and Congress wanted to get in
front of this thing. And that's when they said, you know,
(14:48):
we've got this place. We can go nuts here. This
is this is the nuclear testing equivalent of Vegas, Baby roll.
The dice dropped the bombs, and that's exactly what they did.
And I asked you off, Mike, Um, you know, if
if we talked about this place being like an island, paradise, etcetera,
with such a low population. Um, And my question was
worth these are these transplants from other South Pacific nations
(15:13):
or are they would you consider these indigenous people? I
think the answer is a bit of both. But largely
it is they are indigenous people, correct, Yeah, yeah, so
they're Marshall's culture is part of the wider culture of Micronesia,
and if you look at the history of Marshalle's culture,
(15:34):
I don't know, we're kind of this is a little
off topic, but I'm going somewhere with this. We all
have friends in New York, and if you're not from
New York, or even if you are from the Big Apple,
you're well aware that New York has this weird thing
about when one can be called a local, right and
not just a tourist. What's the threshold? Is it like
(15:54):
eight years or so? I don't know the actual official number,
but it's certainly more than a couple Yeah, and so
so there's it seems like that's a micro cosmic equivalent
of the larger question, which is when do people become
considered indigenous people? Right? We know that with most continents
(16:16):
and land masses in the world, there was a migration
at some point in ancient history. So as far as
the question of indigenous you know, the people who live
in the Marshall Islands have a very close relationship with
the land and the and the sea. It forms part
of the community and part of the culture. And it
looks like they were part of I said, the second
(16:39):
millennium BC. Uh, it looks like they were part of
that larger wave of human migration three thousand years ago
that spread across the western Pacific Ocean. So I would say,
I would say, you know, I'm not doing New York
rules here, far be it. But I feel like if
you've lived in an area for that long, you can
(17:01):
be considered native. Right, Oh, totally. We're talking generations and uh.
I I didn't know this going in. But you know,
when you say that we refer to them as the
Marshalese people, they also have uh, the Marshalese language. That's correct. Uh.
And so there. This is what we're establishing here, is
that the Marshall Islands were by no means some kind
(17:24):
of empty room or some kind of barren, uninhabited place
where these tests could occur without consequence. The first testing
in the Marshall Islands occurred during something called Operation Crossroads,
and that's what that's what Matt was just talking about, folks,
the idea that we need to investigate the effects of
(17:45):
nuclear weapons on naval warships because of course the US
is not well, it's many things, but it's not foolish.
It's not naive enough to think that nuclear weapons will
stay a US joint for a long time. Other people
want the new toy, right, and when they get the
new toy, they're going to use it to break the
(18:07):
toys of their arrivals, like battleships, carriers, etcetera. So we
have to find out what happens before we see it
in the field. So well, and in some of the
some of the stuff surrounding the ear the early Operation Crossroads,
the actual testing that they did, there's some weird stuff,
and it's hard to imagine this was a spectacle, you know,
(18:28):
you think of nuclear testing. At least in the beginning
there it was a very secretive thing. We talked about
that you you can't let anyone know that we're testing
this weapon. You don't want your arrivals to know. But
as we got into really the thick of Operation Crossroads,
the US has already dropped a nuclear weapon to nuclear
weapons on a another country. And at this point it's
(18:51):
almost as if the US is wants to publicly show
the might again. But you do not hurt anybody just
to show that might off. So it's in the in
this one of the testing. I believe it's called able
shot or uh, I think shot able. Uh. They invited
(19:11):
a ton of people out to watch this thing. They
invited the press to come out. Hey, film this thing,
take pictures, Hey check this out. Let's talk about this,
Let's get in the news, so that, in my opinion,
so our allies and our enemies will notice similar to
a military demonstration, well, I mean it is basically military
(19:31):
demonstration with a little bit with a with a lab
coat on and a big, big bang. So shot Able
occurs on July one. This allowed various US authorities to
confirm the power of these weapons, and they determined some
scary stuff. They said, Wow, if there were any soldiers
(19:53):
on any ships up to a mile away from this explosion,
they would be killed instantly, no takebacks, no worries about
the lingering effects of radiation. It's just flipping off like
a very violent light switch. And then they followed up
with the shot Baker test later that month on July.
(20:14):
These these tests were the first time the US had
tested nuclear weapons since the days of Trinity in nine
and they were also the first nuclear detonations since you
know those days in August when Little Boy and Fat
Man were dropped over Nagasaki and Hiroshima. And when Operations
(20:35):
Crossroads ended, it was on August tenth. And get this,
they ended it because of very valid, pressing, terrifying concerns
over radiation and the effects radiation could have on the
human body. But they were worried about the human bodies
of soldiers they wear in a lot of people on
(20:56):
Uncle Sam's side saying ah, yeah, what about the people
who live here for longer than a tour of duty.
They also didn't worry about all the live animals that
they loaded onto the ships when they detonated the nukes
either to see what would happen was Ark style, Like
why were they was this to see the effects of
the radiation on the animals the blast and the radiation.
(21:20):
I mean, how do you think they figured out that
the soldiers would be killed instantly? Pigs, goats, and mice,
I think specifically? Okay, so the opposite of Noah's Ark
style basically, yeah, load onto a boat and kill them
all and see, well, well, see what will happen? Yeah,
(21:40):
that's the phrase they let's see what will happen, which
is You know, it's a it's a lot like um,
if you went to if you went to court for
murder because you shot someone point blank and you said
your honor wasn't trying to hurt anybody. I wanted to
see what would happen for science, dude, you know, I know.
(22:04):
H So this is this is a huge deal though,
and a lot of people in the US may be
aware of the testing, but there's not much attention being
paid to the people who are living in the Marshall Islands.
And they kept going. They kept going because this was
a perfect storm of opportunity. Right there's a post World
(22:27):
War lull. Uh. There's a huge boom in industry and
technology in the US because it's one of the few
Western places that was able to preserve its uh infrastructure.
You know, large parts of Europe are destroyed, like not
decades and decades of productivity were gone in an instant. Uh.
So they also didn't have a lot of people who
(22:47):
could stop them. That was key. We we've heard that
they evacuated or that these people I guess willingly evacuated
like hundred and sixty seven something people. And we're talking
about a collection of islands you know in the thousand,
are not in the thousands but over a thousand. So
how far would this site have been from like whatever
the metro center I believe Majora? How far would this
(23:10):
have been geographically from there? So the distance from Bikini
to Majora is eight hundred and twenty seven kilometers as
the crow flies, that works out to five fourteen miles,
got it, And the this is still by the way
that that might sound like it's a long way away,
(23:33):
but we have to remember these are nuclear weapons, and
there are multiple tests, so there is an aggregate cumulative
effect here. After operations Crossroads ends due to those concerns
about radiation for the soldiers. Only, Uh well, let's fast forward.
There's still tests going on. Nine. Then President Truman decides
(23:56):
that we're going to increase research into thermon nuclear weapons
because of our new freendemy, the USSR, and that the conflict,
the Cold War conflict was already kind of brewing towards
the end of World War two. Of course, uh so
to do this, to increase this amount of research, we
(24:19):
necessarily increase the amount of nuclear testing. And it turns
out we have one place, one place where we love
to test all these world ending toys. It's still the
Marshall Islands. So something called Operation Greenhouse begins in nineteen
fifty one, and then it goes to Operation Ivy in
(24:43):
November of nineteen fifty two. I don't know whether the
band is named after that, folks, but I had the
same question. Let's think about the same thing. I bet you,
I bet you they named it after the operation. I
would guess, But who knows, who knows? Who knows? But
you know, some of their songs still hold up. So
Shot Mike, you know, we had, we had those other
(25:03):
things we mentioned earlier. Shot Able. For instance, there's another
one called Shot Mike. It is the world's first known
successful test of a hydrogen bomb. And then, just a
little bit later, on November six, Uncle Sam conducted what
it called the King Shot, which sounds like a really
(25:24):
a really heavy tourist drink you would get in a
New Orleans bar or something. It also sounds like like
vaguely Hamiltonian. I don't know why, just because of the King.
And I'm not gonna I'm not gonna throw away my shot,
you know and all that? Yeah, oh yeah for sure, man,
And um, I don't mean to pull away from that stuff.
(25:45):
I just want to remind everybody the difference between an
atomic weapon like the ones that were dropped on Japan
versus what we're just now introducing here a hydrogen bomb.
Really the best way to think about it is the
scar aale of destruction and the radius at which leaf
that like instant lethality occurs. So if you can imagine
(26:07):
that when a nuclear weapon was dropped on Japan around
I think it's a radius of about a mile, people
were killed fairly instantly when or instantly when it was
dropped with a with a hydrogen bomb, you could increase
that by about five times or ten times, so like
(26:28):
five miles maybe ten miles in a radius where people
would just be instantly killed. Um, Just so everyone is aware,
especially when we're talking about proximity to the other people
who lived on the Marshall Islands, which is huge. Yeah,
it's very good point. It's very important distinction too. So
we're going to pause for a brief word from our
(26:48):
sponsors and then will return with the story of the
largest test, the one that is the reason we're looking
at an average of one point five Hiroshima's every day
for twelve years, and the inevitable fallout and the inevitable falling.
(27:13):
We've returned not to one, but to March first, ninety four,
the debut of something called code name Bravo, which is
objectively a really cool name for a terrible thing. It's
I think it's cool name. So the US conducted the
largest nuclear debtonation that country has ever conducted, even now
(27:39):
in the modern day, largest ever full stop on Uncle
Sam's part, it was called Castle Bravo. This took place
at the Bikinia Toll on March one uh and Bravo
was a fifteen mega ton hydrogen bomb that is alone
the equivalent of Horosha muh one thousand times. This was
(28:04):
only one of a series of thermonuclear tests, but it's
it's the big one, and it wasn't supposed to be this.
We talked about remember earlier and open skies. We talked
about how many close calls the human species has had,
especially with nuclear weapons, and we were talking specifically about
(28:26):
breakdowns and communication or interpretation of what other countries are
saying or signaling. In this case, we screwed it up
entirely on our own. This was the first device of
its kind we had the calculations. We thought our math
was solid, but we were so very wrong. And we,
(28:47):
meaning the scientists conducting this test, got got the math
so screwed up that when the bomb was detonated, it
it's nuclear yield was more than double what they had
planned for or expected as consequences. Wolf, That's all I
got to say about that. How do you how do
(29:09):
you miscalculate that that much? Uh, it's a new technology,
and you know they're they're testing, right, that's what this
thing is for. And they just didn't realize what it
was gonna do, how how big it was going to be.
And and like you said, there were consequence has been
the fallout did drift over into two inhabited areas there
(29:31):
in the islands, and around two hundred men and women
and children were living in the places where that fallout
kind of just spread right on top of And you know,
it's one of those things we've kind of been setting
up this the whole episode, right of the dangers here
for the inhabitants of these islands, and it happened one
(29:53):
aunt all Wrongloup. The people there found themselves instantly heavily
of acted by the fallout, and there of course their
ecosystem is affected too. And just just to clarify, these
are initial uh, physical effects, not like long term stuff
like we hear about with other you know, like the
(30:14):
the big picture of radiation. These are direct burns um
you know, on people's bodies, uh, and very quick onset
of radiation diseases. Yeah, exactly. So when you're talking about widespread,
heavy contamination like this, you think of it in terms
(30:36):
of either two clocks, or maybe it's better to think
of it in terms of the hour hand and the
minute hand. So the stuff that happens first, those consequences,
the burns, the sickness, the radiation poisoning, that's the minute hand,
and it's going tick tick tick, and you're seeing the results.
But the bill really comes due with what the what
(31:00):
who called the hour hand, which is the long tail
effects of these things, which are very serious and can
take decades to manifest. And that's a problem for the
victims in these situations because then it makes it a
little more difficult to prove that someone is suffering from
a medical condition because of something that happened twenty years ago.
(31:21):
You know what I meant, a lot of room for
unethical defense lawyers to play ball on that field. So
add to this, the military, the U. S Military did
evacuate these residents as well. About two days after the
test is when they got around to it. And uh,
(31:43):
the people of the Marshall Islands, the Marshal Ease were
not informed of the potential dangers. It was all very much,
you know, glory to the greater good. We're making the
world a better place. You're sacrificing. But they were under
they were under the impression that the sacrifice they were
making was moving for a little while. It was a
very different sacrifice involved. A senator of the Marshal Islands
(32:08):
named Jetton and Jane explained the effects of Castle Bravo
in in a powerful and powerful and disturbing way. He says,
five hours after the detonation of this device, it began
to rain radioactive fallout. That wrong Lap the atoll was
covered with a fine white powder like substance. And listened
(32:32):
to this part. No one knew it was radioactive fallout.
The children played in the snow, they ate it. How
How would you know? How would you know? Yeah? Oh
that is rough, man, It just gets rougher. And the
people of Wrongelap came back, but officials and scientists that
(32:55):
we're working for the a c UM decided that radio
shan was still at play and and still very much
a problem. Well, yeah, as we said, I mean, that's
not that's not enough time. Three years as we said this,
and we're gonna talk about later. The stuff comes in
twenty years later as cancer and in birth effects and
(33:16):
all of the terrible things. Yeah, so there's this. Uh,
there's a later report that comes out in two thousand four,
and it found between the years of nineteen forty six
and nineteen fifty eight, the the full amount of contamination
that would have been generated there was in an excess
of five hundred and thirty cancers. Yes, what that means
(33:38):
is in that in that estimate, in that analysis, they said, okay,
what are the average incidents of cancer in the population,
If all things are the same in this test never happened,
can we tell whether this radiation increased cancer? And the
answer is, guess, five hundred and thirty times. People are
(34:00):
just people are more and more likely to get cancer
that we can trace back in two thousand and four,
and again it's a little difficult as time passes. So
that number is probably it's probably lower. Uh, that estimate
is probably lower than the actual number. I mean to say.
And two thousand five, the National Cancer Institute said the
(34:22):
risk of contracting cancer for people exposed to this fallout
like your chance of getting cancer after this one out
of three. That means that if the three of us
on stuff that wants you to know today were in
the Marshal Islands at that time, one of us would
get cancer. And those are terrible, terrible odds. Two or
(34:43):
three decades after the testing ended, this is where the
hour hand begins to tick multiple like many many adult
citizens of the Marshal Islands developed cancerous thyroid nodules, an
associated health risk increase as well. I mean, your community
is shattered. You have to leave the home where you
(35:06):
know generations before you lived, and that gives you stress.
People have PTSD. That also, coupled with some other social
factors like the importation of Western diet with the military,
leads to diabetes, obesity, things that do not help you.
If you are contracting cancer and living in an I
(35:27):
radiated area. It's um. It's rough because later the National
Cancer Institute comes back in and they say, and we
looked at all the cancer between the Marshal Islands and
we The Cancer Institute reports found one point six of
(35:49):
all cancers at least during this time period in the
Marshall Islands are directly attributable to radiation from nuclear testing.
What this means is that the US, no, I won't
say on purpose, but the US, through negligence, gave these
innocent people cancer. There's no way around it. They would
(36:10):
not have had cancer if there have not been nuclear
weapons exploding so often for so long. Uh So, so
we're saying one point six of all cancers that were
developed on all of the islands, okay, because some places
got hit, uh hit much harder, right the Northern a Tolls.
(36:33):
The same study found that in the Northern Atrolls, fifty
five of all cancers are the result of this fallout,
more than half dan and that that one was specifically
just for the Castle Bravo test alone, the giant one
right right. Um, And then you know, moving on into
(36:53):
the seventies, the US does you know, agree that some
mistakes were made? I don't. Maybe maybe the implicated. They
didn't directly say it, but they did agree to clean
up the mess as much as possible, uh to clean
up the islands. UM. They took the crater from a
previous bomb test on Runnett Island UH. And this was
(37:15):
the Defense Nuclear Agency, by the way, and they built
a dome to store nuclear waste UM. And this is
you know, we we see this in other sites around
the United States, for example of the Savannah River site
and near Augusta, Georgia, where I grew up. UM is
a legacy UM containment site for UH spent nuclear weapons.
(37:38):
And they would store a lot of this material in
UH pits that they would dig in line and UM
you know, bury this stuff. And they realized over time
that some of those liners leaked and leached all of
that stuff into the soil. UH. They had a similar
response here. The Defense Nuclear Agency built this dome to
(37:58):
store the nuclear waste, and they built inside of it
a three seventy seven ft wide concrete enclosure that holds
more than three point one million cubic feet. So this
is a pit that is the equivalent of thirty five
Olympic sized swimming pools filled entirely with radioactive soil and
(38:20):
debris UM that contained lethal doses of plutonium, all directly
as a result of of the US activities here, and
it gets worse. This isn't this isn't just the nuclear
trash from marsh from the Marshall Islands test. The US
took stuff from Nevada and put it on a boat
(38:44):
and brought it there and buried it. Again, not in
my backyard. They nimbied this. This structure today is in
danger of collapsing. It is deteriorating over time, and the
big concern is that it could soon reach even more
of a crisis level due to the rising seas. It could. Uh,
(39:08):
you know, this was a problem with Fukushima as well,
when the ocean gets involved. Uh. Nuclear weapons are an
unstoppable force, but so is the ocean for now. And
and shout out, as our anonymous teacher pointed out, shout
out to the excellent work of the l A Times
reporting on this situation, because there there were we'll look
(39:34):
back at this in a second, but there's a solid
case that the US engaged in a series of cover
ups here. A lot of the stuff that they were
doing was classified at the time, and you could say,
of course I had to be because it was nuclear testing.
But they also found it was the LA Times who
found that the US had taken a hundred and thirty
(39:54):
tons of a radiated soil from a Nevada testing site
and dumped it there into a dome, and they had
also conducted biological weapons test so it wasn't just nuclear.
They were like, hey, well we've got this testing thing.
Let's you know, let's take the anthrax around around the
block first spin. Let's just we want to hurt anybody,
Let's just see what happens. Yeah, that's another thing that's
(40:17):
generally a no no exploding. Eventually, it's not always you know,
against international law to do that kind of thing, but
it's never a good look when you're seen testing biological
weapons and the bill comes due, you know. Nowadays it
is Nowadays there are computer models that have the they're
(40:39):
sophisticated enough to predict some of the stuff that you
could in the past only find out through actual physical testing.
But still there's there's not really an excuse for it
because again, people live there and you can still see
the dome today. Locals call it the tomb. It's been
described is a nuclear coffin burying the secrets of the
(41:03):
US as well. Officials in the Marshall Islands lobbied the
US government multiple times for help. American officials initially declined
to help with this clean up. They said, get this, Well,
the dome is on marshal Ease Land, and you know,
post nineteen seventy nine, you're a sovereign country. Uh so
therefore it's the responsibility of your sovereign government. Hashtag not it.
(41:27):
That land is your land, that lands not my land,
just because we tested. Sorry, that's perfect. That sucks. That
song sucks. Uhly, God, No, it's true that I mean,
oh wow wow. Talk about like a Little Red Hand
(41:48):
type situation. You remember that fable where all the other
ants like a reverse little red hand, where all the
other animals wanted to eat the bread that the little
Red Hand spent all this time making, but at the
end she said, you can't have the bread because I
made it. This is literally the other way around, where
it's like you can't have the bread that we made.
That is going to kill you. Never mind, it's bad.
(42:10):
It's a bad analogy. No, No, I think it's it's good.
I've got a bad one too, or at the very least,
it's crass. Uh. It's disturbingly similar to someone like two
people hooking up and Uh, someone saying, hey, in addition
to ruining my apartment when we hooked up, I think
(42:33):
I am pregnant, and then the other person saying, you
will be a fantastic single mother, and I wish you
the best of luck with your apartment. Uh. And in
this case, obviously, the child is nuclear waste. That's what happened. Boy,
are we gonna get in trouble for that one? Do
we need? No? No, I know it's good. I don't.
(42:54):
I don't. I think it's it's it's better than mine.
And it paints a good it paints a disturbing picture
been yoursle right, the child is nuclear waste, and yeah,
it's like we're not going to give you anything. We're
not gonna help you. In fact, that they went even further.
The folks that were left to clean up our mess
weren't even helped in the in the most basic ways,
(43:16):
which you think they would at least provide them some
kind of protective equipment. You know, has matt suits or
what have you rat rat suits if you're a Fallout fan.
But no, not not even that. So there is there
is an argument to be made where you could say, well,
maybe this was just a matter of not knowing the
(43:36):
full extent or the full potential danger of this kind
of exposure, because again this was early in the days
of nuclear testing. But how much water does that hold?
How much nuclear waste fits in that rationalization, dome I
would say not a ton, especially when consider that the
(43:57):
journalists at the Times dove deep into the They interviewed
every martial ease US official who had talked to them
about this. They went through thousands and thousands and thousands
of declassified documents, and they found that the US did
know some key pieces of information here, and they purposely
(44:17):
withheld it from the government of the Marshall Islands. So
they didn't tell them about the weapon testing program. They
didn't tell them about the stuff that was actually inside
this dome UH. And the reason they didn't tell them,
the reason they covered it up, is because they were
pushing to sign a deal in nineteen eight six that
(44:38):
would release the US government from any further liability regarding
these UH, these tests, and this this deal is important,
it's still ongoing. But under this deal they were supposed
to pay settlements, right pay fines and also helped the
population of the country while also cleaning up and payting
(44:59):
for a clean up. Right. So there's another study that
was published by Columbia University scientists and they found that
levels of radiation in certain parts of the Marshall Islands
even today rival the radiation levels found at Chernobyl and Fukushima.
I would also argue that the the siloing and withholding
(45:23):
of information rivals Chernobyl. Yeah, information control sometimes it's a
necessary thing, but it's always it's always just so gross.
It's usually not necessary. It's a really tough thing. We've
got a story like this that is based on you know,
historical misdeeds or wrongdoing, like al right, wrongdoing by some country,
(45:48):
and then you can clearly trace the effects and the
problems to present day and the future. Where it's such
a long lasting issue. It's it isn't very often that
we we hit on one of those topics, and this
is certainly one, and it's I'm I'm just so grateful
to our listener who put us onto this, and my goodness,
(46:11):
maybe we can find a way to help in some way.
I don't know how, but I don't know what we do.
We don't have the resources. Well, yeah, we don't have
much experience cleaning up nuclear waste, which I've always thought
is a is a um a weak point of our podcast. Um,
I would agree with you there, Ben, Yeah, but we uh,
we do know that there is an official holiday coming up,
(46:35):
the Remembrance Day on March two every year, which honors
the victims and the survivors of nuclear testing. Throw a
holiday at it, right, Well, it raises visibility at least,
you can say that now if you if you are
a resident of the US and you want to see
(46:57):
further US action in this area, you can always right
to your local representatives. Uh. Your individual results may vary
in that regard, unfortunately. Uh. But the facts, the facts
are the same. Areas of the Marshall Islands have radiation
levels that are almost double of what is safe for
(47:18):
human human habitation overall. As time passes, the islands are
slowly becoming less radioactive as long as that dome doesn't crack. Right. Um,
but we If you ask somebody, when will the Marshal
Islands be free of radiation? When can people return to
(47:38):
bi Kenya toll? The answer is really, I don't know.
No one, No one is sure. The capital city we
mentioned is overcrowded due to ritings and sea levels and
dozens of other things. It's becoming increasingly polluted. Their clean
up efforts that continuous, were recording the show today, and
(47:59):
the marsh Ali's government continues to rightly, I would say,
advocate for compensation. Why is this important now? Why are
the events of more than half a century ago still
relevant today? Well aside from the radiation, that six deal
comes up for renegotiation in Tree. So there is a
(48:23):
goal or milestone to push your representatives for if you
think the U should be doing more in regards to this.
And again, look, we're just being honest here. We're not
doing a hit piece on the United States. These are
just facts. This was a real conspiracy. Where do these
territories fall in terms of, you know, legislative representation. It's
(48:43):
a good question. So again, since nineteen seventy nine, the
Republic of the Marshall Islands has been a sovereign country. However,
due to the nature of the relationship between the US
and the Marshall Islands, if you're from the Marshall Islands,
you can travel to the US very easily. In theory
or legally, it's very easy, and the same if you
(49:06):
are a US citizen who decides to go to the
Marshall Islands. So it's kind of a gray area then
almost right, Well, it's part of it is the that
thing we mentioned at the top, the fact that it's
what's called an associated state, so they have kind of
a special unilateral deal, so we can do what we
will with them, but don't really give them any protection
(49:29):
or representation. Yeah, it's similar to I mean, it's not
the same thing as a territory like Puerto Rico right
now is a territory, meaning that it does not have
the representation in the government that a state would have,
right and and the Marshall Islands doesn't have that either.
They do have embassies and um and of course a
(49:51):
big U. S military presence, but it's still kind of
it's still kind of World War two era United States
keeping that specific foothold, you know, for the next war.
And I'm sorry to to to harp on this, but
I mean, so doesn't that make our actions almost like
a form of like occupation, like to to go in
(50:12):
there and tell people to leave and just do these
tests like what's the legal framework that makes that not
a complete like active war or you know, I mean,
maybe that's overstating the case a little bit. But I'm
confused in terms of diplomacy, how we can justify what
we did even if it didn't cause all the problems
(50:33):
that it caused. Well, the art of diplomacy is the
art of finding a way to justify anything you please. Unfortunately, UH,
there's a big business. But at the time these testingcred
remember the Martial Islands were not yet a sovereign country.
That's right, got it. So the timeline, it gets a
little fuzzy. There's a lot, a lot of moving parts
(50:53):
in this one. But that fascinating and heartbreaking story. Yeah,
and this is where we're at. So there's a bunal
that is established that was established in two years after
that six agreement has been to keep an eye on
the payments and the compensation the US is supposed to offer.
They concluded that the US needs to pay two point
(51:17):
three billion dollars in claims. Congress and the U S
courts have refused. Uh, and documents show the US has
paid a grand total of mission control. Can we get
a drum roll? Four million dollars? Wolf? But you guys,
it's okay, it's all, it's all okay. None of that
(51:37):
matters because in the United States government concluded that all
of this stuff that leaking nuclear waste from the tombs
a k a. The dome, all that stuff is safe.
You don't even have to worry about it anymore because
don't even worry about it. Who thanks, Uncle Sam. I
feel great now. You know what, anyone any one out
(52:00):
there listening, I help one of you is like an
associate producer at John Oliver's show, I need you to
get John Oliver to do an episode on this because
if we do want to do something good for this,
to raise some awareness or to start some surreptitious uh
campaign to raise money without people realizing they're raising money
(52:22):
for the marshal these people, uh, he could do it.
No one can shame the US government into action like
John Oliver. Yeah. Yeah, big fans here, John, if you're listening,
And it always I don't know, you guys, it always
makes my day when over the time we've been doing
this show where we we end up doing an episode
(52:44):
and then later the rest of the world decides that
we're not crazy and it did matter. Like it doesn't
happen all the time, but it's a beautiful moment. Give
us that beautiful moment. John, if you, if you feel
so inclined and and help these, help the folks in
the more islands out You're right, met. That official report
did conclude that the nuclear dome is not in danger
(53:07):
of imminent collapse. But we have to remember island nations
are fighting rising sea levels and within our lifetime, so
it is quite possible that we may see a country
like the Maldives become entirely underwater and have to relocate
the entire concept of its country to another safer land mass.
(53:31):
Well and not not to you know, have to rose
colored glasses about it. But at least we are transitioning
into an administration that acknowledges the science of climate change
and rising sea levels and things like that at least,
but still denies that the nuclear waste. No, I'm just
(53:51):
trying the administration thinks about the dome. Well, okay, here's
the thing. And this is gonna make me sound very
cynical and may be a little bit too real politic.
The a change in administration or a change in domestic
business can make an enormous difference. So if you hate,
(54:14):
you know, we always say in the US, if you hate,
what's happening during one term. Just wait four years, you know,
and it'll it'll change, often in a way that reverses
other stuff. But we have to understand outside of the
bubble of the United States, the face has changed, but
a lot of the interventionist policies remain the same. It's
(54:36):
not as if these international initiatives that have been in
play for decades and yes, including conflicts and wars and
disputed territories. It's not as if they all of a
sudden get a get a ping on their on their keeper.
I don't know why. I picture whomever is here having
a beeper and they get a beeper ping and it
(54:57):
says like a new president three three or whatever, and
they say, okay, stop, we'll stop now, We'll stop making
so much money. And then the nuclear way says, oh,
we'll stop degrading right now, right right, um. But yeah, hopefully,
hopefully the world can cooperate on this. One other thing
(55:17):
that came out of this, by the way, is that
the Marshall Islands are on the forefront of pushing against
pushing for nuclear disarmament. They say, you know, we don't
want anything like this to happen to anyone, and that's
where we leave it today. We we also have to
we have to ask you some questions, folks. What should
(55:42):
the US government do? What should the international community to
do in this regard? Is the US really doing all
it all it can? Are these good faith efforts now
decades later? If you have visited the Marshall Islands or
if you live there now, we'd also love to hear
your perspective, What is life like there? Um is? Are
the effects of this still readily apparent? And you were
(56:05):
neck of the global woods? Let us know. We try
to be easy to find online. You can find us
on Twitter and Facebook where we are Conspiracy Stuff. On
Instagram we are Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you want to
check out one of the coolest Facebook groups, check out
Here's Where It Gets Crazy or is it a page
whatever it is. It's called Here's Where It Gets Crazy
(56:26):
and it's on Facebook and you can find a lot
of your conspiracy realists there and you can have cool
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running the show. I think it's a group for sure. Okay,
it's a group. You don't want to do that, you
can give us a call. We've got a hotline toll
free like the old days, remember that one eight three
s t d w y t K. As Matt mentioned
(56:48):
in our last episode, we have been getting a flurry
of fabulous voicemails from you. Yes, you, so, if you
would please limit it to one three minute message, let
us know what to call you and make sure you
let us know if it's okay to use your voice,
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(57:11):
review on your pod scraper of choice. It does make
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This show does not occur without you. You can pop
over to YouTube dot com slash conspiracy stuff UH to
see our weird, weird library of conspiracies that you may
(57:32):
have thought of in the past, and ones that I
can with certitude guarantee that you have not heard of.
If you don't care for social media, if phones are
not quite your thing, there is one other way you
can always contact us, regardless of time space, regardless of
(57:53):
topic as well. UH send us an email we are
conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Ye Stuff they
(58:18):
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