October 1, 2021 • 57 mins
If you ever experienced an earthquake, you remember the terrifying feeling of the ground beneath you shifting, shaking, and trembling. Scientists still can't predict the day and time of an earthquake, but one thing's for sure: more are on the way. Tune in as the guys explore the strange world of seismic anomalies with acclaimed actor, writer and director Sarah Wayne Callies, the creator of the stunning podcast "Aftershock", a harrowing tale of struggle and survival in a dystopian California, rocked by a massive earthquake.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is an All. They
called me Ben. We are joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Folks, If you have ever
experienced an earthquake, then you understand the instant chaos these
(00:46):
can produce. In a matter of moments, ordinary life can
be completely upend and an earthquake the actual events may
only last minutes or seconds, but it can wreak havoc
and destruction that lasts for generations afterwards. They're not like hurricanes.
They're not easy to predict. And in today's episode, we
are diving deep into the world of earthquakes and seismic anomalies.
(01:09):
And the good news is we are not going into
this endeavor alone. We are immensely fortunate to be joined
today with the acclaimed actor, writer, director, and most recently,
the creator of the hit New post apocalyptic podcast, Aftershock
please join us and welcoming the one and only Sarah
Wayne Callie. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.
(01:32):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
talk to you guys. Can I just say post apocalyptic
podcast is the best thing I've ever heard, That that
you've coined, That that's yours. Ben, we worked on that. Yeah. Okay, nope,
that's the new one. That's the good living So Sarah
(01:53):
after Shock For anyone who hasn't checked it out yet.
After Shock takes place not immediately during a massive earthquake,
the biggest in US history, but in the wake of
an earthquake, Los Angeles has been laid to waste, right,
It's been flattened, and a mysterious new island has surface
(02:14):
off the coast of California. Now, you conceived, wrote, directed,
and you start in this story. So one of the
things we we'd love to begin with is to learn
a little bit about what initially inspired you here. And
one of the first questions we have for each other
off air was this, have you ever personally experienced an earthquake?
(02:36):
I have not personally experienced a big one, So I
grew up in Hawaii and because it's a very geologically
active region. Um there are different stories that explain why.
Some of those stories involve Magma. That's nice shout out
to somebody's no to Austin Powers. Dr Evil was like
(03:03):
totally a rip on Lorden Michael's side. Wasn't really Dana
Carvey's impression of everyone has wow okay that I didn't
know actually, thank you, thank you for that. I recently
rewatched the entire trilogy. One of my sons, which is
(03:24):
just the greatest way. Wait, wait, which one's which one
is the best? Like top of your list? Which of
the three I like? The first one I really really like.
The first one was a gold Member. That was the
kind of bad one, right. That one wasn't so great?
Was that the Heather Grand one? I think so yeah.
I wasn't super wild about that one. The spy shagged
(03:47):
me I think was too. That one was fun. I
just remember gold Member being like a little shark, little shark,
jumpy folks, Let's stop the show. We need to figure
this out. To Magma, Magmaguma. That was the most amazing segue.
Let's go from the volcanoes to Mike Myers in zero
steps here are so yeah, okay, So so some people
(04:10):
say that the Hawaii is a very seismically active area
because there's because we're a volcano, right, Like, It's just
it's a volcano under the ocean and plates moving and
we got islands. Um. That's there is science lesson for
the day. Um. There's also some really wonderful and amazing
stories that come from Hawaiian mythology about the volcano goddess
(04:31):
Pelle and her various relationships to other gods and demigods
and mortals and the way that that causes movement. Um.
But yeah, So I didn't grow up with anything major.
The only dramatic moment I had in an earthquake was
self imposed. Um. I was It was a moment of
(04:52):
me trying to look like a hero and looking like
an Um. So. I staying at my friend's house, John
Burnthall's house, and he at the time had a kid
and a baby. He was out his wife and I
were hanging out for the night. Um, and we were
in Venice and she had just put the baby to
(05:13):
bed and was putting the toddler down. The kid and
the house started to shake and like a picture rattled
and I was like, save the baby, and I have
babies sound asleep in the crib right like finally I
waked the baby up, grab the baby, run to the
middle of the street, and nothing happens. And I'm all
alone out there in the middle of the street with
(05:34):
a baby that's like, okay, you know what, don't do
that again. AND's wife comes out, she's like, what I
likes an earthquake And it's Ben. You were talking before
we started about being Guatemala and like overreacting to something
that the locals thought was not such a big deal.
That's exactly what happened to me. Um. I was in
(05:54):
an inconsequential earthquake and I woke up a baby to
share it with me. I have to say I would
probably do the same thing, just having no experience of
of know England, the fight or flight activation is in
that moment. There's no nurturing, you know, kind of care caretaker,
kind of human math that one time woke me up
(06:16):
and hauled me out of my Yeah, sentimental train turned
out to be a trip. So so this is this
is fascinating though, because you know, Sarah, you're saying it
was a a minor incident. But I think just from
(06:38):
just from that story, that experience is so profound. You know,
people are used to the earth being solid ground, right,
It's one of the few things we can kind of
count on, And that's why I think it's so fascinating
and it's so in any other context, I would use
the word grounded, but it's it's such a it's a
(06:59):
it's a rounded story to to look at people and say,
what what happens when this thing that no one can
really predict? As we'll find how do you handle it
when your entire world figuratively and literally has been uh
pushed upside down? So what what was some of the
inspiration here when we were first ideating about what would
(07:21):
become after shock? Well, I mean part of it actually
did come from that moment where my rational self exited
the building and my evolutionary brain took over and was like,
we've got this and like proceeded to make a series
of really ridiculous decisions. But I think we, you know,
we have this veneer and I've I've explored this in
lots of different parts of my career. Maybe I just
(07:42):
draw these stories to me because I'm fascinating about them,
But we have this veneer of civilization and culture and
politeness and ways to behave, And it's fascinating to me
how quickly that goes away, right Like it's a patina.
It's the thinnest holding on top of the four point
(08:03):
five billion years of evolution that governs the rest of
our behavior. And I'm so interested in who we are
in those moments um because we spend a lot of time,
I think, in our lives building up a sense of ourselves.
I'm a good person, I'm a rational person. I'm a
calm person. I'm a sharing person. And you know, I
don't know if you've ever been backpacking and gotten lost,
(08:26):
even for like six hours and the sun's going down
and you're in your head going, okay, there's four iodine tablets,
there's six things beef jerky. I brought Norm with me,
and he eats a lot, like you know what I mean,
Like all of a sudden, you start doing a radically
different kind of calculus. And I also remember, and I'm
(08:46):
not gonna be able to summon the name of this book,
but when I was in middle school, we were assigned
to read a book about the San Francisco earthquake. There
was a novel that took place during and around the
San Francisco earthquake, and it just sounded it sounded like
another another country, another time. I mean, there was something
I'd never heard, a story about anything that happened in
(09:07):
the US that was quite as catastrophic and topsy turvy
as what happened in the course of what like eleven
minutes or something, just a series of minutes. Yeah, and
um with with a bit of quick googling, let's see
if we can win our gambit. I think maybe Matt
Nol we're doing this as well. Is the name of
(09:27):
the novel vera. I think it's called Disaster Disaster from
Dan Kerman. I want to say it like took place
in Chinatown. Clearly the content made more of an impact
on you than the title, and that is absolutely fine. Well,
I was also like eleven which oh yeah, it was
(09:49):
the Giver Run the Moon. We're gonna sorry to reference
something and that it will come to you and you
don't care anymore. It'll be like an aha moment at
the end of the of the episode. Yeah, maybe like
totally like the big payoff and the audience will right
in as well, that impulse that you're describing, the impulse,
(10:11):
but that like fight or flight thing, that moment where
you know it's do or die, like, Okay, I am
lost in the woods, I have I can survive for
X number of days. Given these circumstances, your mind does
make a shift and you can feel it, and I
feel like we all felt it. Like the day that
everyone found out, Oh, this is a pan We're in
a pandemic. This is real. You described we did a
bonus episode for After a Shock, which I was I
(10:33):
had the pleasure of executive producing for Fryhart and I
got to moderate this bonus episode, and you described, um,
the moment that everyone collectively experienced when everyone's cell phones
start lighting up and everyone's like, Okay, this is real.
You immediately booked the flight to Canada, I believe, and
you got out on one of the last flights where
you got there, and I was like, sorry, folks, no
more flights in or out. We've closed the border. And
(10:55):
you described that in such cinematic terms, just literally on
that episode, describing this real moment that happened to you.
And it's very similar to kind of what happens in
the first episode. Of aftershock, when the quake hits, you
see the actual moment you're kind of popping around the
different characters. Again, it is very grounded in just the
day to day lives of these characters, and then you
(11:16):
see them all have to kind of band together and
through various ways come together and kind of like you know,
survive and create this new world, this new colony on
this island that comes up. But, um, how weird was
it for you to kind of see those parallels? Obviously
you wrote this, you know, far in advance of this
real life kind of apocalyptic event happening to us as
(11:38):
a as a species. What was it like to you
to kind of see those parallels and was it like
super trippy? I mean I felt a little bit like
nostred amos um. And one quick point of clarification. I
booked a flight to Canada because I live in Canada.
Just there maybe some maybe some people listening who are like, weird,
there's a pandemic, and she decided to go to Canada home. Um,
(12:01):
you know, I was retroactively grateful for the care we
took with the epidemiology, because we had a lot of
conversations about Okay, there's a virus, What does it mean?
How is it transmitted? I decided to base it on
um on AIDS in terms of transmission. Also, you know,
(12:24):
I kind of grew up during the AIDS crisis, and
I remembered kind of how that, you know, towards the
community apart. It was it was very weird to have
written something that I thought was fiction, that I was
reaching into the depths of my brain just for a
device that would allow us to ratchet up the stakes
(12:46):
so that we could play with these characters in our
personal dynamics, right Like, I don't care. Yes it's a
show about an earthquake, and yes there's a pandemic in
it um or there's a there's a virus in it.
But to me, that's just so that I can put
human beings in difficult relationships with one another and see
(13:07):
if there's a way for them to find some kind
of redemption. UM love bleakness. Right now, I feel like
there's a there's dare we call it an epidemic of
bleak bleak storytelling in television and film, and it's it's
starting to shift, I think actually with things like Brutherford
(13:28):
Falls and reservation dogs and you know, things that are
really rely on humor and connectivity and maybe the ted
Lasso effect is what we're calling. Yes, yes, totally we
need that. But you're right, I mean you you, your
characters are all moving towards some kind of positive outcome,
and they're it's all about perseverance, about pushing forward and
like you know, taking advantage of those moments, not letting
(13:50):
it crush you, not letting it, you know, deprive you
of your humanity, but like making it bring forth your humanity.
And that's what I was kind of getting out. I
think you do a fabulous job with that character building
within this world that is just sort of a frame
to play with these incredible characters that I mean, you know,
in an audio podcast, it's not easy to do, to
give so much life using only your voice with no
(14:11):
visuals and obviously the sound design super important, and on
Aftershock it's incredible. Um but the the acting is so
good and the writing is so good, and the storytelling
is so great. It's just I highly recommend give this
one a pause, go listen to an episode and then
comes on after the matical podcast. But um yeah, just anyway,
one thing I would I would say tad to that
(14:31):
I Actually this is something I was thinking over as
I was I think experience is a good word, a
good verb to use here. You're probably if you're listening
to Aftershock, you're experiencing it more than you're listening, because
it's it's compelling, it's um it brings you in. And
I think it's because so much emphasis is put on
the humanity here. And I noticed that in your work
(14:54):
on Colony, and your work on Walking Dead, and your
work on prison Break and so many other projects. That
is one of the great thematic commonalities. These people find
themselves in unexpected, extraordinary circumstances. You know, sometimes the folks
that you had just thought would always be your enemies become,
(15:14):
you know, allies, and the negative of that happens as well.
This seems to me to be a common thematic thread.
And I have to wonder too, in your writing process,
which I'd love to talk a little bit more about.
In your writing process, did you find any moments where
(15:35):
the characters themselves surprised you, like, where they made choices
that you didn't see coming. Yeah, for sure, I definitely did.
I mean, I think we're all super familiar with the
version of of humanity that's the Lord of the Flies version, right,
We've all understood that narrative that things can go south
(15:57):
and we can all turn into monsters. But I think
may be less familiar right now with the ways in
which sometimes in disaster people do remarkable things for each other,
um and selfless things for each other. And some of
the reporting of the earthquake in Haiti, you know, they
talk about people giving everything that they had to strangers
(16:18):
who had lost everything and knowing that they'd never see
it again. You know, just somebody passing through who's hurt
and barefoot and lost their phone and their wallet, and
just people whose homes had been destroyed giving them everything
they possibly couldn't sending them on their way. And I
think there's those were the moments sometimes where characters surprised
me a little bit with the need for connection, the
(16:42):
need to to feel like, well, we're two beating hearts
in the world right now, and we might both be scared,
but at least our hearts can beat next to each other,
and uh, we can maybe get through it. I was
not sure at all from the beginning how I was
going to get Michaela and Cassie to someplace of peace.
(17:02):
Or redemption or forgiveness. That was a question from the
beginning that I kind of had, and I wrote a
lot of versions of their two big scenes, um, and
it took me a long time to kind of talk
and talk and talk and talk and talk my way
through it and find a little bit of grace between them.
And I think sometimes the grace is actually in between
(17:23):
the lines. It's not in what's said, but it's in
kind of how you hear it. If that makes any sense, Yeah,
it does. And this I promise just one more question
about the writing process, because I am fascinated here. Okay, So,
the one thing that is that differentiates aftershot from a
lot of other fiction stories of this of this world,
(17:47):
you know, regardless of medium, is the approach, the approach
you've taken in terms of this narrative structure. So we
experience multiple voices, multiple characters, and we're often experiencing um
something that they are looking back on the benefit of retrospect,
there's a flashback that occurs and it unfolds the story
(18:10):
in this really compelling way. Did you set out with
this approach in mind, and and if not, what led
you to this innovative approach Like I feel like it
does a tremendous job of world building right, which can
be a challenge sometimes and this nails it. Oh, thank you. UM.
I think it came from two things. One, Malcolm Gladwell
(18:33):
did this really fascinating podcast episode on his show Revisionist
History about Brian Williams and memory, and in it he
talks about the ways in which we can be one
ercent sure that we are remembering the absolute truth and
we can be one percent wrong. And so especially in
(18:55):
a crisis when your blood is rushing in your ears
and your heart is pounding, and that that reptilian brain
is at the helm not you know, you're sort of
prefrontal cortex. I think our memories become subjective. And then
a lot of the narrative structure of it, of this
sort of true detective style question and answer interview period um,
(19:19):
A lot of it came from a need to convey
certain kinds of of exposition to the audience without wanting
to start every scene by being like, oh, it sure
is cold here on July in the five days after
the earthquake, and we'll look at that exactly. Um, exposition
(19:40):
is you know, it's hard, and especially without a visual
to be like, remember, guys, we're on an island, ls
in the distance and it's burning. Um. So that was
helpful to have somebody asking questions, who's an interrogator and
just really quickly just d add and then I'll move
on as well. Your sound designer Jeff Schmidt, who has
(20:01):
also worked on shows like Dr Death, UM and and
many others that that folks would have heard of. UM.
He talks about how he created that sense of depth
of field, like a cinematic kind of approach to audio storytelling,
where he would have things in the foreground in the background,
but in a much more clever way than just like
here's birds chirping and like here's the person's really close
(20:22):
and this person is really far away. He literally created
a sense of focus and depth that you would usually
only be able to achieve visually with like camera focusing
and rack focusing and things like that, um, in the
depth of field of the of the camera. He did
that with audio, and I think that's really what like
took you the next level, especially in the pilot when
like the earthquake is actually going down, it really is.
(20:44):
It feels like you're there. It's like some of the
most immersive sound design I think I've ever heard, really
really excellent. Jeff Schmidt is a god. I mean it's
really it's phenomenal what he did. And also I think
some of it came from just my own ignorance. I'd
never written for audio before, so I'm just writing an
earthquake and he's like, how what does that sound like?
I was like, I don't know. You tell me and
(21:05):
be like okay. And then he would come up with
stuff and we'd play with it back and forth, and
you know, I stuck people on opposite sides of like
plexi glass, and I put has thatt helmets on folks.
And he was like, what do you want this to
sound like? And I was like, I don't know, just good.
I want it to sound good. And so he had
(21:25):
total free reigin and I wasn't smart enough to write
something different. I think it's the that's the truth of
the matter. I'm just imagining a bunch of people in
the studio wearing has mat suits with plexiglass and they're
just running into it to try and get some kind
of earthquake sound out of. Yeah, it's like when you
should shake the piece of metal to make like thunders. Yeah,
(21:48):
you're you're you're not that far off them. That actually
one of the one of the actors, because they recorded
this whole thing during lockdown. Um had he had like
new new baby. I believe he hoarded in the trunk
of his car in order to get the best isolation
and then had to like text his wife to come
let him out when he was done what he couldn't
(22:11):
find any peace in quiet. No, that's amazing, that's amazing.
It's amazing. Okay, wait, hold on, I'm just trying. Was
that David Was that David Harbor? No, it was the Dunbar.
He's got four kids and they were in full lockdown.
(22:31):
So he he went into the car and then we
were like, what sounds really like there's a lot about
He's like, well, yeah, it's surrounded by glass. And he
goes wait and there's just like shuffle shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, crunch,
and we're like, oh, that sounds great. Where are you
He's like, I'm in the trunk. Can we do this quickly? Yeah?
Full commitment. Yeah, And that's something that you know a
(22:54):
lot of people in the creative fields have experienced, you know,
in in lockdown in in the case of in the
case of podcasting, you know, thousands of shows ended up
moving from studios too. I saw a lot of walk
in closets, I think, and then some that were just
baby called walk in closets, and there was because you know,
(23:19):
you're walking over the microphone and uh. And this to
me in a way that speaks to the earlier point
you made, Sarah about how in adversity people do. We
sometimes forget that people do rise to these challenges and
(23:39):
you see some of the most noble I'm not connecting
podcasting with a pandemic or a natural disaster, hopefully, but
we see people rise to sometimes the best version of
themselves at the times when it matters most. And that's
that's something that um, again I'm trying not to spoil
too much, but that's something that I uplifting about the
(24:01):
story of Aftershock, is that it's not you know, when
when people hear the term post apocalyptic, sometimes they think,
perhaps a little too quickly, of things like the Road
or Mad Max, you know, which is very very gloom
and doom. Uh. And What's another thing that I thought
(24:23):
was so rounded with Aftershock is something that we wanted
to chat with you a little bit about today, which
is there are I imagine, some similar real life events,
not not on the level of something destroying Los Angeles
yet knock on wood and fingers crossed. But but the
(24:46):
largest earthquake in US history is oddly enough, often forgotten
in the current day. And this is the New Madrid.
We pronounced it correctly this time, met we did. That's
a new the new Madrid, the new Madrid seismic zone,
and the massive earthquake that not figuratively but literally shook
(25:10):
the continent. Back in the eighteen hundreds, when you're doing
research and you're thinking through, Okay, what is the epidemiology
of something? What is what are the effects of an
earthquake of that magnitude? Was there anything you found that
that surprised you? Because you know, none of us are seismologists,
so we were not experts on what happens after an earthquake,
(25:34):
As you know, I experienced one in Guatemala and nearly
pete myself to the amusement of a very nice host family.
But but but what did you what did you find
and how did it inform how did it inform the
way you you tail this tale? I think Matt's helping
us out a little bit now with the dog noises
no very very very oppression. Dogs can predict earthquakes, so
(25:58):
we felt they were feeling they you talk about an earthquake,
the dogs earths parking. But no, I mean that that
surprised me. The way birds will change their behavior, dogs
will change their behavior. Um. You know, I think you
even sent me an article about the the Missouri earthquakes.
That birds will flock to people, dogs will often run away.
(26:22):
You know that we think of these things as um,
much more of a surprise maybe than other animal life
who are like I have been trying to tell you
for the last eighteen hours that, Um, that fascinated me.
I mean the look. The big thing was the whole
premise of the show was brought to me by Ben
Haber and Patrick Carmen. They had this idea what if
(26:43):
a new island rose up out of the ocean? And
my first question was, well, how? And I got on
the phone with a friend of mine who very uh
luckily happened to have worked for the U. S Geological
Survey for years, and I was like, Okay, so is
there any world in which an earthquake could like push
up a new island, Like, um, yeah, I realized it
(27:05):
sounds ridiculous. I was like, I did a little bit
of internet research, but I never know if that's bs
And He's like, I mean, it's possible. I'm not gonna
say it's gonna happen, but it's possible. And so we
went from there. But that that was the big surprise
to me, is that there can be kind of geological
events miles away from the epicenter that are so still
(27:27):
so profound. Oh yeah, we're gonna take a quick break,
but we'll be right back, and we're back. I want
to jump in here and talk about some of the
weird stuff that happened during those earthquakes. Were mentioning here
the new Madrid fault stuff, the stuff from the eighteen hundreds.
(27:48):
One phenomena in particular that was seen then what is
it eighteen eleven, eight twelve, were strange lights in the
sky as the earthquake is actively occurring. This to me
feels very science fiction. That doesn't seem real, doesn't seem
like that's something that would happen. Why would movement on
(28:10):
the Earth and the Earth's crust cause lights in the
sky to occur, and it's still honestly something that the
scientific community is a bit There's there's debate still about
what exactly it is, but there's some pretty interesting concepts.
And the reason why I want to bring this up
(28:30):
is because that happened in in eighteen twelve, eighteen eleven,
in September of this year in Mexico, in Acapulco, there
was a there was a large earthquake where you can
see video from the city of these weird blue flashing
lights going off all along all in the sky as
(28:53):
the earthquake is actively occurring, and you could see, I'm brilliant.
It also gives us a fun new words seismo luminescence,
Yes exactly, that's no dominant. Aren't done saying it ever again,
(29:16):
But Matt, if I'm not mistaken, it has to do
with court crystals in the Earth's crust being squeezed by
the fault activity and literally causing lights to shoot up
that can appear almost as like squiggly snake type things,
and then they're so bright they actually do kind of
create patterns in the sky. I know there there are
like sort of It's still the jury is out on
(29:38):
some of this stuff. But is that roughly what you're
talking about. Yes, Um, you have to kind of describe
a little more there. Sometimes it's balls of light. Sometimes
it is squiggly things that you're talking about. I think
they referred to as streamers. Sometimes just a glow like
almost bioluminescent like glow, that kind of bright. Yeah, very weird. Uh.
(30:00):
And it's tough because you have to take you have
to imagine all that stuff is occurring. But you've also
probably very likely if there's an electrical grid anywhere nearby,
you're seeing some transformers blowing up out in the distance
and seeing flashes of that, you're seeing, you know, part
other parts where there is electrical wiring that's malfunctioning and sparking,
(30:21):
as well as maybe buildings that are just having issues
and fires starting. So all of these different lights happening
while the earth is shaking. To me, it's just, I
don't know, it feels very otherworldly. And I can imagine
if you weren't armed with that information at hand, that
you could recall very quickly. And maybe you've seen several
(30:45):
movies where something like aliens are involved, let's say, or
you know, the Apocalypse, and you see all of this happening,
you feel the ground shaking, your mind is in that
place that we're talking about, that would probably be one
of the most terrifying things that could happen to you.
Oh yeah, I would. I would also add that the
from what I understand, people still aren't a hundred percent
(31:10):
sure what can cause earthquake lights. There are a couple
of competing theories hypotheses, uh, And that just makes it
that just makes it even stranger, because let's be honest,
when everything when everything goes sideways like that, hopefully not literally,
but maybe sometimes that's the case, and you see those lights,
can you really blame people for thinking, yeah, fine, aliens,
(31:32):
why not this is just not my day? You know,
like just that that seems very human and understandable. Um.
And then to learn that people experts to spend their
lives researching this around the clock still aren't sure. Uh.
To me, that teaches us that there is a lot
more to learn about earthquakes, and that that kind of knowledge,
(31:55):
I would argue, is only going to be increasingly important
in the coming year, especially now that we know fracking
can Indy cause earthquakes? Yes, it can. By the way,
the idea that like that was news to the fracking industry.
Just seems so weird to me. You need you needed
a study to tell you that when you fracking, like
(32:19):
fracking is an earthquake. Sorry, it's one of this. We
are on the same Yeah, a little crazy. There's also
there's a there's a bunch of these seismic anomalies and
phenomenon that associated specifically with the New Madrid Um event
of the early eighteen hundreds. Another one of them is
called something called a sand boil, where basically weight from
(32:42):
high river water pushes down on the layers of soil
underneath it and and the water can like find these
like weak spots in the soil and it seeps up
to the surface. Uh, and it actually looks like the
sand is kind of like boiling up out of the ground.
So again, I mean, think about this is eighteen hundreds,
people are I think, That's what I'm saying. I would
(33:04):
think the world was coming to it and people were
thinking they were gonna get raptured. You know. Um, it's
weird to nobody died that we know one person I think, yeah,
one person died, correct, and there were maybe some missing
folks where they didn't find the bodies. And that's another
crazy one that has to do with these fissures that
can just open up, you know, like a sinkhole style
(33:24):
and just like literally swallow you into the depths of
the earth, which means that, you know, because maybe lack
of record keeping them or maybe things that got lost
in the chaos, maybe there were more people that were
killed than just the one person that we know of.
But um, yeah, all of this stuff, taken together with
the limited scientific knowledge that they had at the time,
I think would have made for some real nightmare fuel.
(33:48):
I mean, it feels like a religious experience, right, Like
I mean, I still I've never seen the Aurora borealis.
That's like on my bucket list, but every time I
see a photo of it, I was like, well, that's magic. Like,
I'm sure there's science behind it. I'm sure people have
studied this, but I was like, no, that's just magic,
(34:08):
and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And
if that was accompanied by sand boiling up from the
earth and the earth shaking, and because the other thing
was the Mississippi River reverse direction for a second, right
started flowing in the opposite direction. I mean again, the rational,
like college educated part of me would probably leave the building,
(34:32):
and you know, in her place would be like caveman Sarah. Yeah,
you'd want to find an island you could escape to
newly for right. And then even even to that point,
you know which there are there are different kinds of intelligence, right,
We're different people depending on the context. So if you
(34:53):
have already experienced perhaps one of the most traumatic events
of your life, and then in the case of New
Madrid in eighteen eleven and eighteen twelve, seen a river
literally flow backwards, is going to give you some real
serious questions about spirituality. Uh. And we know for a
fact that this this was the case. And I think
(35:14):
it's also very realistic in aftershocked the way that we have,
we have some people who, for better or worse, have
turned to spiritual answers to explain what has taken place. Yeah,
and I you know, I always want to make room
for both. Um. One of my really good friends in
Vancouver is a bishop in the Old Catholic Church, which
(35:37):
is like not the Roman Catholic Church. It's like a
thing the Capital oh Old Catholic Church. And we have
different relationships to a lot of things. Um, But whenever
I'm trying to create something to write, I want to
make sure that the bishop and I can both participate
in it and not feel judged. Like I feel like
(35:58):
there's so much and this is the little soap boxy
and I apologize, but there's so much division of like
people the faith are stupid, or like people who believe
in science are being lied to, and there's just this
this um. It's a different approach than the one I
grew up with, which is sit down, break bread, have
a meal together. You don't have to agree. You just
(36:19):
have to be kind. You have to be nice to
each other. You have to be respectful of each other's
different opinions. And I think it was important to me
in aftershock that there were some people who took this
as something deeply and profoundly spiritual. And it can be
if that's how it affects you, Right, If if you
change the thrust of your life and personality in response
(36:42):
to something, then in your life it has become a
spiritual event. And and you know, then there's another explanation
that has to do with science and refraction and play
tectonics and things like that. But it would be awfully
nice if we could find ways for things. Is like that,
to coexist without screaming judgment at each other. It's a
(37:07):
false psychotomy, you know, it really is. If I could
accompany you on the soapbox, you know. I think one
of the things people forget is, oh, thank you, thank
you for having me. Uh. It's one thing that far
too many people forget is that science at its best
attempts to answer how something occurs, right, and spirituality is
(37:31):
concerned with why? And those are those are two incredibly noble,
and I would argue equal endeavors and and the idea
that I think perhaps for some people it is a
mean spirited comfort of sorts to dismiss those sorts of
(37:51):
philosophies that they may not personally ascribe to. But I
also think those people are short changing themselves because ultimately,
both of those questions are continuing endeavors, right not. People
haven't all decided to agree on one spiritual belief anymore
than seismologists have been able to successfully predict an earthquake.
(38:13):
Science is still asking how, and spirituality is still the
question to answer why. And um. With that in mind, like,
I think that's not a fanboy too much, but I
think That's something that's really brilliant about the characters in
this story because having those having those viewpoints, having those
um different perspectives, it makes people feel more real because
(38:37):
even folks who don't openly talk about that probably deal
with the same dilemmas. I would say, Okay, I'm off
the soapbox, Matt. You just went for a book what
uh this is only my grandfather gave me. Is called
Remembering Socrates. You probably can't even read it because of
my crazy ring light. But it has some interesting things
in there about how we as humans like handle our
(39:02):
belief in God. But one of the one of the
major things that it hits on is the Socratic method,
which is what you're talking about. It's really just listening.
When we're you're talking about sitting at that table with
people who have different beliefs. You gotta do more listening
than talking. That's that's the way you actually grow um.
In my in my opinion, that's just sorry, that's what
(39:23):
was preaching for it. Well, it's interesting to the spirituality
kind of enters into this um when we're talking about
the New Madrid earthquakes. Um in right before the earthquakes happened,
there was this crazy comment that was visible around the
planet for seventeen months. Uh, and it actually was at
its brightest during the earthquakes, and it was referred to
(39:45):
it's been referred to as Napoleon's comment in Europe, but
it was actually recalled two compsas comment um in America.
UM and two come. So was a Shawny First Nation
tribal leader and he had a brother. He was referred
to as the Prophet, and he was really good at
for telling events like you know, that's how you get
(40:06):
a nickname like the Prophet. He apparently predicted a total
eclipse of the sun that happened in eighteen o six UM,
and then on September of eighteen eleven there was another
solar eclipse which he had predicted, UM, and that kind
of preceded the the earthquakes as well. UM. It's it's
a whole thing. And then there's another story about how
(40:26):
the Mississippi running in reverse was seen by the Muskogee
tribe tribal members as a sign from a river river
god called I believe like the Thai snake gods, I
think what it was called um, as a sign that
they should rise up against the European colonists who had
like kind of changed their whole way of life, and
(40:46):
then it was a call from you know, beyond the
veil to like return to a simpler way of life.
And long story short, they did rebel, but the word
got out and they kind of got quashed, and it
ultimately led to the um ejection of all these First
Nations people from the area. So essentially it led to
(41:07):
the Trail of Tears. So this spiritual interpretation of a
um you know, natural phenomenon leads to this shift not
only you know, tectonically, but like historically. I kind of
just I didn't realize that's real. Yeah, comment was visible
for that long ye, I hadn't been seen previously. It was.
(41:30):
It's one that's just like out there in orbits, and
I think it has been seen previously in the time
of Ramsey's in ancient Egypt. Most comments are just out there, Orbert,
you know what I mean, You don't you don't know
what their circuit is except but I think that's compelling,
right because again to the point you meet Sarah, there's
not there's not a reason to denigrate somebody's personal spiritual
(41:56):
interpretation of a thing. And science and faith do coexist
and have for years. Right, the origins of science are
rooted in philosophical things that might be considered spiritual today
and maybe maybe to us what you were saying earlier,
It takes some for some people, and sometimes it takes
(42:18):
a massive unexpected event to bring that to bear in
their own you know, in their own uh what woul
you call it? Front of mind for them to admit it. Uh.
Will pause for a moment for a word from our
sponsors before returning with more from Sarah Wayne Kalis. And
(42:40):
we've returned with this, I've got to say the one
of the strangest aspects. And I'm walking a line here
because I don't want to spoil it and I don't
want I want to make sure everybody if you didn't
pay attention when Noel earlier said, paused this and go
listen after shock, Uh, do do that now. Um, we're
not We're not gonna spoil it, and you'll be glad
(43:02):
we didn't. But this this brings me to ask one thing.
I know our audience is gonna what ask, so season two?
What are we is? Is there a season two on
the way? Are we thinking that there's a season two
on the way. Noel and I are just kind of
dropped us a pick up recently. I had not thought
(43:25):
much about a season two was right now. Earthquake lights, Yeah,
earthquake lights are a huge part of it. There will
be sand boils, Maui, Maui shows up. Were we familiar
with Maui? Yes, because we're gonna We're gonna incorporate Hawaiian
mythology and Disney. I guess apparently. Actually, I think that's
(43:46):
not I mean not to tell you how to right
here season, but I do think you know, you're already
talking about all this at the top of the show.
You were talking about Pale and the Hawaiian mythology that
informed your kind of childhood growing up, and your understanding
of all the seismic stuff and the volcanoes, all the
stuff that I think that I was just talking about
with like the First Nations folks, and you know, the
predictions and the comments, and I'm so fascinated by all
(44:09):
of this lore and like maybe it's real. There's a
part of my brain that wants to believe that, because
a part of all of our brains that want to
believe there is magic in the world, and I think
that's why the idea of an island rising up. Yeah,
can it be scientifically explained? Sure, maybe, as your friend
from the geologic survey said, but what if there was
what if it was more like, you know, there's some
(44:30):
magic behind it. You know. I think that's maybe something
to to think about. Just putting in my two cents
for season two. And I mean, you know, we have
Lilihua and she's for a bunch of reasons. She's there,
partly because, you know, I have an agenda about Hawaiian sovereignty,
having grown up there, and it was really moved by
what's going on with the cop Aloha and the protests
(44:51):
up Monica. Yes, I was just in, Yeah, it's were you. Yeah,
I mean what's going on on Hawaii Island is extraordinary
and in some ways, I think an outgrowth of of
things that I got a chance to observe um and
listen to when I was growing up. But I think, look,
(45:12):
when I maybe part of why I believe that these
two worlds can be kind of straddled when it comes
to traditional mythology and science is that that's sort of
how I grew up. I mean, when I was in
fourth grade. We went to um Kwei Volcanoes National Park
and it was on a different island than the when
I grew up on. So they send you a list
to pack because you're going to be there for a
(45:32):
few days with your fourth grade class and you're going
to crater. And on the packing list is an airplane
bottle of gin to throw in the caldera as a
gift to pelling. I don't think they do that anymore.
This was eon and they probably don't want people littering,
But there was this conscious sense that you don't show
(45:54):
up to the volcano without an offering to the goddess
who it belongs to. There was a conscious understanding that
this is not your land. This is Hawaiian land. There
are people there, There are gods who inhabit, gods and
godnesses who inhabit this land, and it's on you to
learn the stories so that you could behave the way
you need to behave. You know, I never took a
(46:15):
hike without making an offering at some point, just of hey,
thanks for not wiping me out with a flash flood,
super grateful, thanks for not dropping a rock on my head.
And it was weird for me when I came to
the mainland and you know, I went to school in
New Hampshire and I was like, so whose land are
we on? And people were like what do you mean?
(46:35):
And sorry, I want to say white people were like
what do you do? But specific, you know, I mean,
there was there was no sense of those stories. And
so part of having lay an aftershock is like, what,
let's write those stories back in because there interesting, They're powerful,
They shape who we are growing up with an understanding
(46:58):
that one of the most powerful forces on the land
I was growing up in was a female deity. I
think probably there's a direct line between that and me
being a director. You know, stories are important. I think
they're and because I get to right aftershock, I get
to make them important and there will be a lot
more of that. Maui is an interesting idea actually, because
(47:21):
the story of Maui, you know, and his brothers is
the story of Maui pulling up the Hawaiian Islands from
the sea. Um And you know, maybe maybe I can
convince Dwayne to come and there can you imagine John hi? Um?
(47:42):
Can I know five dollars dollars not millions, Yeah, just dollars.
But you can do it from your closet. Uh are
you still there? Are you still there? You can also
communicate these stories in a way that other in a
(48:04):
way that they may not have been encountered before, which
I think is both unique and powerful. I also do
want to add for the skeptics in the crowd who
are saying something like, oh, well you you virtually would
never find an island rising. They all come from somewhere,
and people may be surprised to learn that is recently,
(48:24):
as August of this year. Just last month, new islands
were being discovered. There was one just found off the
coat like slightly above Greenland. It's the most northernmost island
in the world so far. Yes, way, hey, yes, So
this the world in which we exist outside of of
the realm of fiction or podcasting, has all of these
(48:47):
amazing things going on. And I love the idea of
the rich mythology being brought to bear here. Um. And
also also, yeah, it would be nicer if people on
the mainland had at least a little bit of something
in the direction of that philosophy that you have described.
You know, I'm gonna be thinking about that off air
(49:11):
for a while. And the Great Atlanta falcon first came.
So I don't think we can. I don't think we
can do it. The wind Eagle, you could, you could
get there, you could get Okay, you could get there.
Is that a cherokeeth I can't remember if it's Cherokee?
The Cherokee Country is close enough to Atlanta that you
might be able to get away with it, which howson,
(49:33):
Oh yeah, man, more about that than I do. The
Atlanta Falcons. I'm embarrassed to say a water pole is
Atlanta hockey team once upon a time in the Atlanta Thrashers.
(49:55):
We're holding out hope. Our petition has not been answered,
but of course you've got to shoot to your shot.
And at this point we do want to note, as
we said in the beginning, that currently scientists cannot successfully
predict the day and time of an earthquake. Instead, what
they can do is they can make models based on
(50:16):
past events, and they can explore things like seismic zones
and fault lines and predict areas where um, you know,
just like aftershot, they can predict areas where earthquakes are
likely to occur. And this is something that you know,
can can alarm people. Sometimes there are a lot of
factors that play. You know, Sarah, you mentioned earlier, we
(50:39):
understand that when the plates shift right, that's when the
that's when it can be earthquake time. But again, for
for this story, and I believe for many people who
have survived events like this in real life, the thing
that stays with them are those human moments. And that's
what I would posit. That's what all amazing stories are
(51:02):
ultimately about, when you get down to the interactions, the triumphs,
and the travails of the characters. So now that we
know a little bit about season two, which again no
spoilers yet, we we have to ask Sarah, because the
audience is going to ask us, where can our listeners
go to learn more about your work? And where can
(51:26):
they go to learn more about you? To learn more
about my work? Makes it sound like I haven't you
You haven't really done much, right, Sarah, You haven't. Where
can they go? I mean, I don't know. You can
follow me on Instagram, but um, it's a good follow
(51:46):
highly recommendo. Hey thanks, Um you could do that, or
you could. I think most of my some of my
stuff on Netflix, some of it someplace else. I don't know.
Things are always hopping around all of the different stream
It's like basically like cable all over again, but like
way more confusing. At least then it was all on
(52:06):
one you know, on demand menu. Um hey, let me
hype man you real quick. I'm just gonna say. You
can also listen and subscribe to Aftershock on the I
Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do that's right there, Yeah, I got your back. Nice
you guys. We didn't even talk about like the the
(52:28):
nuclear threat of earthquakes in the Midwest. That's a good
way to well talking about the future of things. I mean,
that's sort of a good place to leave folks, I think.
But that's fault. It is. The fault we talked about
is still a thing, the New Madrid fault, specifically because
FEMA and the United States government, the Pentagon they back
(52:49):
ten years ago, I think ten years ago, they had
one of the largest UH test runs essentially of of
a huge earthquake I think eight or nine on the
Richter scale earthquake UM and they had thousands of emergency
responders modeling what what would happen, right if if just
(53:13):
all of the buildings collapsed along this area and the
worst part is that there are so many nuclear facilities
out there that if one of them was affected to
the extent that the Fukushima reactor was affected, we could essentially,
I mean, just think about the radioactive fallout not only
(53:33):
along the land in terms of a possible explosion, but
also aquifers that are deep underground getting that radioactive wastewater
in them. Uh. Yes, it doesn't matter which way it's going.
If it's there's radioactive wastewater in there, No bueno um anyway,
it's FEMA and the Pentagon have been thinking about that
(53:54):
for a long time because they're aware it's not it's
not an if thing, it's a win thing. That's a
terrifying thought because I feel like we spend a lot
of time thinking about the military and war games and
the threat, whether it's China or Russia or some place
you know around um North Korea. The idea that the
(54:15):
entire country could melt down from the middle with some
like chain reaction of nuclear reactors, that's like, that's a
disaster too big for Michael Bay to make it a movie,
Like there's just no there's no wrapping your head up.
I disagree, though, I think Michael Bay could explode way
more things in his movies. He's just Cagy. Yes, Michael Bay,
(54:40):
famously subtle filmmaker known for his nuance. Yes, if you
want to read that study in full, folks, you can,
by the way, find it online. Everything match just described
is factual. That's on. You can see I believe through
the U. S. Geological Survey. Wired has a article called
(55:01):
Pentagon Quake Nightmare Fukushima on the Mississippi. So at the
very least, maybe it's something that will inspire you after
you listen to this episode to go find your loved ones.
You have to explain yourself because you love them. Just
give him a hug and has to have some positive
energy for them here. Uh, Sarah again, thank you so
(55:23):
very much for taking the time to be with us
here today. Uh. We can't wait for everybody to hear Aftershock,
and we're also going to ask what do you think fellas. Uh,
let's ask our fellow listeners here to give us maybe
their stories of earthquakes, their stories of surviving related disasters.
(55:44):
We would love to hear from you, and we try
to be easy to find online. That's right. We are
conspiracy stuff on Twitter on YouTube, and on what's the
other one, guys, facebo Facebook, that's the one. We also
have a Facebook group called Here's where it Gets Crazy.
Doesn't answer one simple questions, not a riddle, it's all
very straightforward. Just to say the name of of Ben
(56:04):
Matt or myself or just say something to let us
Russian bot and that you actually and you're in great
means to be had great conversations with great folks. Uh.
If you don't want to do any of that stuff,
you can also give us a telephone call. That's right, Yes,
a telephone. You use your mouth and one of these
and you can talk to us technology through the black mirror.
(56:30):
We exist. So our number is one eight three three
st d w y t K. That's just stuff they
don't want you to know all the first letters. You
can leave us a message for three minutes. That's what
you've got. Please give yourself an awesome, awesome nickname. Don't
be middling and it's no pressure. It could be related
to uh, it could be related to native mythology. In mythology, yeah,
(56:54):
whatever you want. It couldn't be. It could be blueberry, pomegranate.
We don't care like Michael Bay's nuclear melts. That's what
they call it. When he pitches a fit on set. Uh, Michael,
you can call us, yes, So let's take it more
(57:16):
than three minutes to say what he has to say.
That's right. Hey, And if and if you like Michael
Bay need more time, please instead send us a good
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(57:47):
Stuff they don't want you to know. Is a production
of I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
visit the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
(00:25):
My name is Matt, my name is an All. They
called me Ben. We are joined as always with our
super producer Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you.
You are here, and that makes this the stuff they
don't want you to know. Folks, If you have ever
experienced an earthquake, then you understand the instant chaos these
(00:46):
can produce. In a matter of moments, ordinary life can
be completely upend and an earthquake the actual events may
only last minutes or seconds, but it can wreak havoc
and destruction that lasts for generations afterwards. They're not like hurricanes.
They're not easy to predict. And in today's episode, we
are diving deep into the world of earthquakes and seismic anomalies.
(01:09):
And the good news is we are not going into
this endeavor alone. We are immensely fortunate to be joined
today with the acclaimed actor, writer, director, and most recently,
the creator of the hit New post apocalyptic podcast, Aftershock
please join us and welcoming the one and only Sarah
Wayne Callie. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.
(01:32):
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to
talk to you guys. Can I just say post apocalyptic
podcast is the best thing I've ever heard, That that
you've coined, That that's yours. Ben, we worked on that. Yeah. Okay, nope,
that's the new one. That's the good living So Sarah
(01:53):
after Shock For anyone who hasn't checked it out yet.
After Shock takes place not immediately during a massive earthquake,
the biggest in US history, but in the wake of
an earthquake, Los Angeles has been laid to waste, right,
It's been flattened, and a mysterious new island has surface
(02:14):
off the coast of California. Now, you conceived, wrote, directed,
and you start in this story. So one of the
things we we'd love to begin with is to learn
a little bit about what initially inspired you here. And
one of the first questions we have for each other
off air was this, have you ever personally experienced an earthquake?
(02:36):
I have not personally experienced a big one, So I
grew up in Hawaii and because it's a very geologically
active region. Um there are different stories that explain why.
Some of those stories involve Magma. That's nice shout out
to somebody's no to Austin Powers. Dr Evil was like
(03:03):
totally a rip on Lorden Michael's side. Wasn't really Dana
Carvey's impression of everyone has wow okay that I didn't
know actually, thank you, thank you for that. I recently
rewatched the entire trilogy. One of my sons, which is
(03:24):
just the greatest way. Wait, wait, which one's which one
is the best? Like top of your list? Which of
the three I like? The first one I really really like.
The first one was a gold Member. That was the
kind of bad one, right. That one wasn't so great?
Was that the Heather Grand one? I think so yeah.
I wasn't super wild about that one. The spy shagged
(03:47):
me I think was too. That one was fun. I
just remember gold Member being like a little shark, little shark,
jumpy folks, Let's stop the show. We need to figure
this out. To Magma, Magmaguma. That was the most amazing segue.
Let's go from the volcanoes to Mike Myers in zero
steps here are so yeah, okay, So so some people
(04:10):
say that the Hawaii is a very seismically active area
because there's because we're a volcano, right, Like, It's just
it's a volcano under the ocean and plates moving and
we got islands. Um. That's there is science lesson for
the day. Um. There's also some really wonderful and amazing
stories that come from Hawaiian mythology about the volcano goddess
(04:31):
Pelle and her various relationships to other gods and demigods
and mortals and the way that that causes movement. Um.
But yeah, So I didn't grow up with anything major.
The only dramatic moment I had in an earthquake was
self imposed. Um. I was It was a moment of
(04:52):
me trying to look like a hero and looking like
an Um. So. I staying at my friend's house, John
Burnthall's house, and he at the time had a kid
and a baby. He was out his wife and I
were hanging out for the night. Um, and we were
in Venice and she had just put the baby to
(05:13):
bed and was putting the toddler down. The kid and
the house started to shake and like a picture rattled
and I was like, save the baby, and I have
babies sound asleep in the crib right like finally I
waked the baby up, grab the baby, run to the
middle of the street, and nothing happens. And I'm all
alone out there in the middle of the street with
(05:34):
a baby that's like, okay, you know what, don't do
that again. AND's wife comes out, she's like, what I
likes an earthquake And it's Ben. You were talking before
we started about being Guatemala and like overreacting to something
that the locals thought was not such a big deal.
That's exactly what happened to me. Um. I was in
(05:54):
an inconsequential earthquake and I woke up a baby to
share it with me. I have to say I would
probably do the same thing, just having no experience of
of know England, the fight or flight activation is in
that moment. There's no nurturing, you know, kind of care caretaker,
kind of human math that one time woke me up
(06:16):
and hauled me out of my Yeah, sentimental train turned
out to be a trip. So so this is this
is fascinating though, because you know, Sarah, you're saying it
was a a minor incident. But I think just from
(06:38):
just from that story, that experience is so profound. You know,
people are used to the earth being solid ground, right,
It's one of the few things we can kind of
count on, And that's why I think it's so fascinating
and it's so in any other context, I would use
the word grounded, but it's it's such a it's a
(06:59):
it's a rounded story to to look at people and say,
what what happens when this thing that no one can
really predict? As we'll find how do you handle it
when your entire world figuratively and literally has been uh
pushed upside down? So what what was some of the
inspiration here when we were first ideating about what would
(07:21):
become after shock? Well, I mean part of it actually
did come from that moment where my rational self exited
the building and my evolutionary brain took over and was like,
we've got this and like proceeded to make a series
of really ridiculous decisions. But I think we, you know,
we have this veneer and I've I've explored this in
lots of different parts of my career. Maybe I just
(07:42):
draw these stories to me because I'm fascinating about them,
But we have this veneer of civilization and culture and
politeness and ways to behave, And it's fascinating to me
how quickly that goes away, right Like it's a patina.
It's the thinnest holding on top of the four point
(08:03):
five billion years of evolution that governs the rest of
our behavior. And I'm so interested in who we are
in those moments um because we spend a lot of time,
I think, in our lives building up a sense of ourselves.
I'm a good person, I'm a rational person. I'm a
calm person. I'm a sharing person. And you know, I
don't know if you've ever been backpacking and gotten lost,
(08:26):
even for like six hours and the sun's going down
and you're in your head going, okay, there's four iodine tablets,
there's six things beef jerky. I brought Norm with me,
and he eats a lot, like you know what I mean,
Like all of a sudden, you start doing a radically
different kind of calculus. And I also remember, and I'm
(08:46):
not gonna be able to summon the name of this book,
but when I was in middle school, we were assigned
to read a book about the San Francisco earthquake. There
was a novel that took place during and around the
San Francisco earthquake, and it just sounded it sounded like
another another country, another time. I mean, there was something
I'd never heard, a story about anything that happened in
(09:07):
the US that was quite as catastrophic and topsy turvy
as what happened in the course of what like eleven
minutes or something, just a series of minutes. Yeah, and
um with with a bit of quick googling, let's see
if we can win our gambit. I think maybe Matt
Nol we're doing this as well. Is the name of
(09:27):
the novel vera. I think it's called Disaster Disaster from
Dan Kerman. I want to say it like took place
in Chinatown. Clearly the content made more of an impact
on you than the title, and that is absolutely fine. Well,
I was also like eleven which oh yeah, it was
(09:49):
the Giver Run the Moon. We're gonna sorry to reference
something and that it will come to you and you
don't care anymore. It'll be like an aha moment at
the end of the of the episode. Yeah, maybe like
totally like the big payoff and the audience will right
in as well, that impulse that you're describing, the impulse,
(10:11):
but that like fight or flight thing, that moment where
you know it's do or die, like, Okay, I am
lost in the woods, I have I can survive for
X number of days. Given these circumstances, your mind does
make a shift and you can feel it, and I
feel like we all felt it. Like the day that
everyone found out, Oh, this is a pan We're in
a pandemic. This is real. You described we did a
bonus episode for After a Shock, which I was I
(10:33):
had the pleasure of executive producing for Fryhart and I
got to moderate this bonus episode, and you described, um,
the moment that everyone collectively experienced when everyone's cell phones
start lighting up and everyone's like, Okay, this is real.
You immediately booked the flight to Canada, I believe, and
you got out on one of the last flights where
you got there, and I was like, sorry, folks, no
more flights in or out. We've closed the border. And
(10:55):
you described that in such cinematic terms, just literally on
that episode, describing this real moment that happened to you.
And it's very similar to kind of what happens in
the first episode. Of aftershock, when the quake hits, you
see the actual moment you're kind of popping around the
different characters. Again, it is very grounded in just the
day to day lives of these characters, and then you
(11:16):
see them all have to kind of band together and
through various ways come together and kind of like you know,
survive and create this new world, this new colony on
this island that comes up. But, um, how weird was
it for you to kind of see those parallels? Obviously
you wrote this, you know, far in advance of this
real life kind of apocalyptic event happening to us as
(11:38):
a as a species. What was it like to you
to kind of see those parallels and was it like
super trippy? I mean I felt a little bit like
nostred amos um. And one quick point of clarification. I
booked a flight to Canada because I live in Canada.
Just there maybe some maybe some people listening who are like, weird,
there's a pandemic, and she decided to go to Canada home. Um,
(12:01):
you know, I was retroactively grateful for the care we
took with the epidemiology, because we had a lot of
conversations about Okay, there's a virus, What does it mean?
How is it transmitted? I decided to base it on
um on AIDS in terms of transmission. Also, you know,
(12:24):
I kind of grew up during the AIDS crisis, and
I remembered kind of how that, you know, towards the
community apart. It was it was very weird to have
written something that I thought was fiction, that I was
reaching into the depths of my brain just for a
device that would allow us to ratchet up the stakes
(12:46):
so that we could play with these characters in our
personal dynamics, right Like, I don't care. Yes it's a
show about an earthquake, and yes there's a pandemic in
it um or there's a there's a virus in it.
But to me, that's just so that I can put
human beings in difficult relationships with one another and see
(13:07):
if there's a way for them to find some kind
of redemption. UM love bleakness. Right now, I feel like
there's a there's dare we call it an epidemic of
bleak bleak storytelling in television and film, and it's it's
starting to shift, I think actually with things like Brutherford
(13:28):
Falls and reservation dogs and you know, things that are
really rely on humor and connectivity and maybe the ted
Lasso effect is what we're calling. Yes, yes, totally we
need that. But you're right, I mean you you, your
characters are all moving towards some kind of positive outcome,
and they're it's all about perseverance, about pushing forward and
like you know, taking advantage of those moments, not letting
(13:50):
it crush you, not letting it, you know, deprive you
of your humanity, but like making it bring forth your humanity.
And that's what I was kind of getting out. I
think you do a fabulous job with that character building
within this world that is just sort of a frame
to play with these incredible characters that I mean, you know,
in an audio podcast, it's not easy to do, to
give so much life using only your voice with no
(14:11):
visuals and obviously the sound design super important, and on
Aftershock it's incredible. Um but the the acting is so
good and the writing is so good, and the storytelling
is so great. It's just I highly recommend give this
one a pause, go listen to an episode and then
comes on after the matical podcast. But um yeah, just anyway,
one thing I would I would say tad to that
(14:31):
I Actually this is something I was thinking over as
I was I think experience is a good word, a
good verb to use here. You're probably if you're listening
to Aftershock, you're experiencing it more than you're listening, because
it's it's compelling, it's um it brings you in. And
I think it's because so much emphasis is put on
the humanity here. And I noticed that in your work
(14:54):
on Colony, and your work on Walking Dead, and your
work on prison Break and so many other projects. That
is one of the great thematic commonalities. These people find
themselves in unexpected, extraordinary circumstances. You know, sometimes the folks
that you had just thought would always be your enemies become,
(15:14):
you know, allies, and the negative of that happens as well.
This seems to me to be a common thematic thread.
And I have to wonder too, in your writing process,
which I'd love to talk a little bit more about.
In your writing process, did you find any moments where
(15:35):
the characters themselves surprised you, like, where they made choices
that you didn't see coming. Yeah, for sure, I definitely did.
I mean, I think we're all super familiar with the
version of of humanity that's the Lord of the Flies version, right,
We've all understood that narrative that things can go south
(15:57):
and we can all turn into monsters. But I think
may be less familiar right now with the ways in
which sometimes in disaster people do remarkable things for each other,
um and selfless things for each other. And some of
the reporting of the earthquake in Haiti, you know, they
talk about people giving everything that they had to strangers
(16:18):
who had lost everything and knowing that they'd never see
it again. You know, just somebody passing through who's hurt
and barefoot and lost their phone and their wallet, and
just people whose homes had been destroyed giving them everything
they possibly couldn't sending them on their way. And I
think there's those were the moments sometimes where characters surprised
me a little bit with the need for connection, the
(16:42):
need to to feel like, well, we're two beating hearts
in the world right now, and we might both be scared,
but at least our hearts can beat next to each other,
and uh, we can maybe get through it. I was
not sure at all from the beginning how I was
going to get Michaela and Cassie to someplace of peace.
(17:02):
Or redemption or forgiveness. That was a question from the
beginning that I kind of had, and I wrote a
lot of versions of their two big scenes, um, and
it took me a long time to kind of talk
and talk and talk and talk and talk my way
through it and find a little bit of grace between them.
And I think sometimes the grace is actually in between
(17:23):
the lines. It's not in what's said, but it's in
kind of how you hear it. If that makes any sense, Yeah,
it does. And this I promise just one more question
about the writing process, because I am fascinated here. Okay, So,
the one thing that is that differentiates aftershot from a
lot of other fiction stories of this of this world,
(17:47):
you know, regardless of medium, is the approach, the approach
you've taken in terms of this narrative structure. So we
experience multiple voices, multiple characters, and we're often experiencing um
something that they are looking back on the benefit of retrospect,
there's a flashback that occurs and it unfolds the story
(18:10):
in this really compelling way. Did you set out with
this approach in mind, and and if not, what led
you to this innovative approach Like I feel like it
does a tremendous job of world building right, which can
be a challenge sometimes and this nails it. Oh, thank you. UM.
I think it came from two things. One, Malcolm Gladwell
(18:33):
did this really fascinating podcast episode on his show Revisionist
History about Brian Williams and memory, and in it he
talks about the ways in which we can be one
ercent sure that we are remembering the absolute truth and
we can be one percent wrong. And so especially in
(18:55):
a crisis when your blood is rushing in your ears
and your heart is pounding, and that that reptilian brain
is at the helm not you know, you're sort of
prefrontal cortex. I think our memories become subjective. And then
a lot of the narrative structure of it, of this
sort of true detective style question and answer interview period um,
(19:19):
A lot of it came from a need to convey
certain kinds of of exposition to the audience without wanting
to start every scene by being like, oh, it sure
is cold here on July in the five days after
the earthquake, and we'll look at that exactly. Um, exposition
(19:40):
is you know, it's hard, and especially without a visual
to be like, remember, guys, we're on an island, ls
in the distance and it's burning. Um. So that was
helpful to have somebody asking questions, who's an interrogator and
just really quickly just d add and then I'll move
on as well. Your sound designer Jeff Schmidt, who has
(20:01):
also worked on shows like Dr Death, UM and and
many others that that folks would have heard of. UM.
He talks about how he created that sense of depth
of field, like a cinematic kind of approach to audio storytelling,
where he would have things in the foreground in the background,
but in a much more clever way than just like
here's birds chirping and like here's the person's really close
(20:22):
and this person is really far away. He literally created
a sense of focus and depth that you would usually
only be able to achieve visually with like camera focusing
and rack focusing and things like that, um, in the
depth of field of the of the camera. He did
that with audio, and I think that's really what like
took you the next level, especially in the pilot when
like the earthquake is actually going down, it really is.
(20:44):
It feels like you're there. It's like some of the
most immersive sound design I think I've ever heard, really
really excellent. Jeff Schmidt is a god. I mean it's
really it's phenomenal what he did. And also I think
some of it came from just my own ignorance. I'd
never written for audio before, so I'm just writing an
earthquake and he's like, how what does that sound like?
I was like, I don't know. You tell me and
(21:05):
be like okay. And then he would come up with
stuff and we'd play with it back and forth, and
you know, I stuck people on opposite sides of like
plexi glass, and I put has thatt helmets on folks.
And he was like, what do you want this to
sound like? And I was like, I don't know, just good.
I want it to sound good. And so he had
(21:25):
total free reigin and I wasn't smart enough to write
something different. I think it's the that's the truth of
the matter. I'm just imagining a bunch of people in
the studio wearing has mat suits with plexiglass and they're
just running into it to try and get some kind
of earthquake sound out of. Yeah, it's like when you
should shake the piece of metal to make like thunders. Yeah,
(21:48):
you're you're you're not that far off them. That actually
one of the one of the actors, because they recorded
this whole thing during lockdown. Um had he had like
new new baby. I believe he hoarded in the trunk
of his car in order to get the best isolation
and then had to like text his wife to come
let him out when he was done what he couldn't
(22:11):
find any peace in quiet. No, that's amazing, that's amazing.
It's amazing. Okay, wait, hold on, I'm just trying. Was
that David Was that David Harbor? No, it was the Dunbar.
He's got four kids and they were in full lockdown.
(22:31):
So he he went into the car and then we
were like, what sounds really like there's a lot about
He's like, well, yeah, it's surrounded by glass. And he
goes wait and there's just like shuffle shuffle, shuffle, shuffle, crunch,
and we're like, oh, that sounds great. Where are you
He's like, I'm in the trunk. Can we do this quickly? Yeah?
Full commitment. Yeah, And that's something that you know a
(22:54):
lot of people in the creative fields have experienced, you know,
in in lockdown in in the case of in the
case of podcasting, you know, thousands of shows ended up
moving from studios too. I saw a lot of walk
in closets, I think, and then some that were just
baby called walk in closets, and there was because you know,
(23:19):
you're walking over the microphone and uh. And this to
me in a way that speaks to the earlier point
you made, Sarah about how in adversity people do. We
sometimes forget that people do rise to these challenges and
(23:39):
you see some of the most noble I'm not connecting
podcasting with a pandemic or a natural disaster, hopefully, but
we see people rise to sometimes the best version of
themselves at the times when it matters most. And that's
that's something that um, again I'm trying not to spoil
too much, but that's something that I uplifting about the
(24:01):
story of Aftershock, is that it's not you know, when
when people hear the term post apocalyptic, sometimes they think,
perhaps a little too quickly, of things like the Road
or Mad Max, you know, which is very very gloom
and doom. Uh. And What's another thing that I thought
(24:23):
was so rounded with Aftershock is something that we wanted
to chat with you a little bit about today, which
is there are I imagine, some similar real life events,
not not on the level of something destroying Los Angeles
yet knock on wood and fingers crossed. But but the
(24:46):
largest earthquake in US history is oddly enough, often forgotten
in the current day. And this is the New Madrid.
We pronounced it correctly this time, met we did. That's
a new the new Madrid, the new Madrid seismic zone,
and the massive earthquake that not figuratively but literally shook
(25:10):
the continent. Back in the eighteen hundreds, when you're doing
research and you're thinking through, Okay, what is the epidemiology
of something? What is what are the effects of an
earthquake of that magnitude? Was there anything you found that
that surprised you? Because you know, none of us are seismologists,
so we were not experts on what happens after an earthquake,
(25:34):
As you know, I experienced one in Guatemala and nearly
pete myself to the amusement of a very nice host family.
But but but what did you what did you find
and how did it inform how did it inform the
way you you tail this tale? I think Matt's helping
us out a little bit now with the dog noises
no very very very oppression. Dogs can predict earthquakes, so
(25:58):
we felt they were feeling they you talk about an earthquake,
the dogs earths parking. But no, I mean that that
surprised me. The way birds will change their behavior, dogs
will change their behavior. Um. You know, I think you
even sent me an article about the the Missouri earthquakes.
That birds will flock to people, dogs will often run away.
(26:22):
You know that we think of these things as um,
much more of a surprise maybe than other animal life
who are like I have been trying to tell you
for the last eighteen hours that, Um, that fascinated me.
I mean the look. The big thing was the whole
premise of the show was brought to me by Ben
Haber and Patrick Carmen. They had this idea what if
(26:43):
a new island rose up out of the ocean? And
my first question was, well, how? And I got on
the phone with a friend of mine who very uh
luckily happened to have worked for the U. S Geological
Survey for years, and I was like, Okay, so is
there any world in which an earthquake could like push
up a new island, Like, um, yeah, I realized it
(27:05):
sounds ridiculous. I was like, I did a little bit
of internet research, but I never know if that's bs
And He's like, I mean, it's possible. I'm not gonna
say it's gonna happen, but it's possible. And so we
went from there. But that that was the big surprise
to me, is that there can be kind of geological
events miles away from the epicenter that are so still
(27:27):
so profound. Oh yeah, we're gonna take a quick break,
but we'll be right back, and we're back. I want
to jump in here and talk about some of the
weird stuff that happened during those earthquakes. Were mentioning here
the new Madrid fault stuff, the stuff from the eighteen hundreds.
(27:48):
One phenomena in particular that was seen then what is
it eighteen eleven, eight twelve, were strange lights in the
sky as the earthquake is actively occurring. This to me
feels very science fiction. That doesn't seem real, doesn't seem
like that's something that would happen. Why would movement on
(28:10):
the Earth and the Earth's crust cause lights in the
sky to occur, and it's still honestly something that the
scientific community is a bit There's there's debate still about
what exactly it is, but there's some pretty interesting concepts.
And the reason why I want to bring this up
(28:30):
is because that happened in in eighteen twelve, eighteen eleven,
in September of this year in Mexico, in Acapulco, there
was a there was a large earthquake where you can
see video from the city of these weird blue flashing
lights going off all along all in the sky as
(28:53):
the earthquake is actively occurring, and you could see, I'm brilliant.
It also gives us a fun new words seismo luminescence,
Yes exactly, that's no dominant. Aren't done saying it ever again,
(29:16):
But Matt, if I'm not mistaken, it has to do
with court crystals in the Earth's crust being squeezed by
the fault activity and literally causing lights to shoot up
that can appear almost as like squiggly snake type things,
and then they're so bright they actually do kind of
create patterns in the sky. I know there there are
like sort of It's still the jury is out on
(29:38):
some of this stuff. But is that roughly what you're
talking about. Yes, Um, you have to kind of describe
a little more there. Sometimes it's balls of light. Sometimes
it is squiggly things that you're talking about. I think
they referred to as streamers. Sometimes just a glow like
almost bioluminescent like glow, that kind of bright. Yeah, very weird. Uh.
(30:00):
And it's tough because you have to take you have
to imagine all that stuff is occurring. But you've also
probably very likely if there's an electrical grid anywhere nearby,
you're seeing some transformers blowing up out in the distance
and seeing flashes of that, you're seeing, you know, part
other parts where there is electrical wiring that's malfunctioning and sparking,
(30:21):
as well as maybe buildings that are just having issues
and fires starting. So all of these different lights happening
while the earth is shaking. To me, it's just, I
don't know, it feels very otherworldly. And I can imagine
if you weren't armed with that information at hand, that
you could recall very quickly. And maybe you've seen several
(30:45):
movies where something like aliens are involved, let's say, or
you know, the Apocalypse, and you see all of this happening,
you feel the ground shaking, your mind is in that
place that we're talking about, that would probably be one
of the most terrifying things that could happen to you.
Oh yeah, I would. I would also add that the
from what I understand, people still aren't a hundred percent
(31:10):
sure what can cause earthquake lights. There are a couple
of competing theories hypotheses, uh, And that just makes it
that just makes it even stranger, because let's be honest,
when everything when everything goes sideways like that, hopefully not literally,
but maybe sometimes that's the case, and you see those lights,
can you really blame people for thinking, yeah, fine, aliens,
(31:32):
why not this is just not my day? You know,
like just that that seems very human and understandable. Um.
And then to learn that people experts to spend their
lives researching this around the clock still aren't sure. Uh.
To me, that teaches us that there is a lot
more to learn about earthquakes, and that that kind of knowledge,
(31:55):
I would argue, is only going to be increasingly important
in the coming year, especially now that we know fracking
can Indy cause earthquakes? Yes, it can. By the way,
the idea that like that was news to the fracking industry.
Just seems so weird to me. You need you needed
a study to tell you that when you fracking, like
(32:19):
fracking is an earthquake. Sorry, it's one of this. We
are on the same Yeah, a little crazy. There's also
there's a there's a bunch of these seismic anomalies and
phenomenon that associated specifically with the New Madrid Um event
of the early eighteen hundreds. Another one of them is
called something called a sand boil, where basically weight from
(32:42):
high river water pushes down on the layers of soil
underneath it and and the water can like find these
like weak spots in the soil and it seeps up
to the surface. Uh, and it actually looks like the
sand is kind of like boiling up out of the ground.
So again, I mean, think about this is eighteen hundreds,
people are I think, That's what I'm saying. I would
(33:04):
think the world was coming to it and people were
thinking they were gonna get raptured. You know. Um, it's
weird to nobody died that we know one person I think, yeah,
one person died, correct, and there were maybe some missing
folks where they didn't find the bodies. And that's another
crazy one that has to do with these fissures that
can just open up, you know, like a sinkhole style
(33:24):
and just like literally swallow you into the depths of
the earth, which means that, you know, because maybe lack
of record keeping them or maybe things that got lost
in the chaos, maybe there were more people that were
killed than just the one person that we know of.
But um, yeah, all of this stuff, taken together with
the limited scientific knowledge that they had at the time,
I think would have made for some real nightmare fuel.
(33:48):
I mean, it feels like a religious experience, right, Like
I mean, I still I've never seen the Aurora borealis.
That's like on my bucket list, but every time I
see a photo of it, I was like, well, that's magic. Like,
I'm sure there's science behind it. I'm sure people have
studied this, but I was like, no, that's just magic,
(34:08):
and that's my story and I'm sticking to it. And
if that was accompanied by sand boiling up from the
earth and the earth shaking, and because the other thing
was the Mississippi River reverse direction for a second, right
started flowing in the opposite direction. I mean again, the rational,
like college educated part of me would probably leave the building,
(34:32):
and you know, in her place would be like caveman Sarah. Yeah,
you'd want to find an island you could escape to
newly for right. And then even even to that point,
you know which there are there are different kinds of intelligence, right,
We're different people depending on the context. So if you
(34:53):
have already experienced perhaps one of the most traumatic events
of your life, and then in the case of New
Madrid in eighteen eleven and eighteen twelve, seen a river
literally flow backwards, is going to give you some real
serious questions about spirituality. Uh. And we know for a
fact that this this was the case. And I think
(35:14):
it's also very realistic in aftershocked the way that we have,
we have some people who, for better or worse, have
turned to spiritual answers to explain what has taken place. Yeah,
and I you know, I always want to make room
for both. Um. One of my really good friends in
Vancouver is a bishop in the Old Catholic Church, which
(35:37):
is like not the Roman Catholic Church. It's like a
thing the Capital oh Old Catholic Church. And we have
different relationships to a lot of things. Um, But whenever
I'm trying to create something to write, I want to
make sure that the bishop and I can both participate
in it and not feel judged. Like I feel like
(35:58):
there's so much and this is the little soap boxy
and I apologize, but there's so much division of like
people the faith are stupid, or like people who believe
in science are being lied to, and there's just this
this um. It's a different approach than the one I
grew up with, which is sit down, break bread, have
a meal together. You don't have to agree. You just
(36:19):
have to be kind. You have to be nice to
each other. You have to be respectful of each other's
different opinions. And I think it was important to me
in aftershock that there were some people who took this
as something deeply and profoundly spiritual. And it can be
if that's how it affects you, Right, If if you
change the thrust of your life and personality in response
(36:42):
to something, then in your life it has become a
spiritual event. And and you know, then there's another explanation
that has to do with science and refraction and play
tectonics and things like that. But it would be awfully
nice if we could find ways for things. Is like that,
to coexist without screaming judgment at each other. It's a
(37:07):
false psychotomy, you know, it really is. If I could
accompany you on the soapbox, you know. I think one
of the things people forget is, oh, thank you, thank
you for having me. Uh. It's one thing that far
too many people forget is that science at its best
attempts to answer how something occurs, right, and spirituality is
(37:31):
concerned with why? And those are those are two incredibly noble,
and I would argue equal endeavors and and the idea
that I think perhaps for some people it is a
mean spirited comfort of sorts to dismiss those sorts of
(37:51):
philosophies that they may not personally ascribe to. But I
also think those people are short changing themselves because ultimately,
both of those questions are continuing endeavors, right not. People
haven't all decided to agree on one spiritual belief anymore
than seismologists have been able to successfully predict an earthquake.
(38:13):
Science is still asking how, and spirituality is still the
question to answer why. And um. With that in mind, like,
I think that's not a fanboy too much, but I
think That's something that's really brilliant about the characters in
this story because having those having those viewpoints, having those
um different perspectives, it makes people feel more real because
(38:37):
even folks who don't openly talk about that probably deal
with the same dilemmas. I would say, Okay, I'm off
the soapbox, Matt. You just went for a book what
uh this is only my grandfather gave me. Is called
Remembering Socrates. You probably can't even read it because of
my crazy ring light. But it has some interesting things
in there about how we as humans like handle our
(39:02):
belief in God. But one of the one of the
major things that it hits on is the Socratic method,
which is what you're talking about. It's really just listening.
When we're you're talking about sitting at that table with
people who have different beliefs. You gotta do more listening
than talking. That's that's the way you actually grow um.
In my in my opinion, that's just sorry, that's what
(39:23):
was preaching for it. Well, it's interesting to the spirituality
kind of enters into this um when we're talking about
the New Madrid earthquakes. Um in right before the earthquakes happened,
there was this crazy comment that was visible around the
planet for seventeen months. Uh, and it actually was at
its brightest during the earthquakes, and it was referred to
(39:45):
it's been referred to as Napoleon's comment in Europe, but
it was actually recalled two compsas comment um in America.
UM and two come. So was a Shawny First Nation
tribal leader and he had a brother. He was referred
to as the Prophet, and he was really good at
for telling events like you know, that's how you get
(40:06):
a nickname like the Prophet. He apparently predicted a total
eclipse of the sun that happened in eighteen o six UM,
and then on September of eighteen eleven there was another
solar eclipse which he had predicted, UM, and that kind
of preceded the the earthquakes as well. UM. It's it's
a whole thing. And then there's another story about how
(40:26):
the Mississippi running in reverse was seen by the Muskogee
tribe tribal members as a sign from a river river
god called I believe like the Thai snake gods, I
think what it was called um, as a sign that
they should rise up against the European colonists who had
like kind of changed their whole way of life, and
(40:46):
then it was a call from you know, beyond the
veil to like return to a simpler way of life.
And long story short, they did rebel, but the word
got out and they kind of got quashed, and it
ultimately led to the um ejection of all these First
Nations people from the area. So essentially it led to
(41:07):
the Trail of Tears. So this spiritual interpretation of a
um you know, natural phenomenon leads to this shift not
only you know, tectonically, but like historically. I kind of
just I didn't realize that's real. Yeah, comment was visible
for that long ye, I hadn't been seen previously. It was.
(41:30):
It's one that's just like out there in orbits, and
I think it has been seen previously in the time
of Ramsey's in ancient Egypt. Most comments are just out there, Orbert,
you know what I mean, You don't you don't know
what their circuit is except but I think that's compelling,
right because again to the point you meet Sarah, there's
not there's not a reason to denigrate somebody's personal spiritual
(41:56):
interpretation of a thing. And science and faith do coexist
and have for years. Right, the origins of science are
rooted in philosophical things that might be considered spiritual today
and maybe maybe to us what you were saying earlier,
It takes some for some people, and sometimes it takes
(42:18):
a massive unexpected event to bring that to bear in
their own you know, in their own uh what woul
you call it? Front of mind for them to admit it. Uh.
Will pause for a moment for a word from our
sponsors before returning with more from Sarah Wayne Kalis. And
(42:40):
we've returned with this, I've got to say the one
of the strangest aspects. And I'm walking a line here
because I don't want to spoil it and I don't
want I want to make sure everybody if you didn't
pay attention when Noel earlier said, paused this and go
listen after shock, Uh, do do that now. Um, we're
not We're not gonna spoil it, and you'll be glad
(43:02):
we didn't. But this this brings me to ask one thing.
I know our audience is gonna what ask, so season two?
What are we is? Is there a season two on
the way? Are we thinking that there's a season two
on the way. Noel and I are just kind of
dropped us a pick up recently. I had not thought
(43:25):
much about a season two was right now. Earthquake lights, Yeah,
earthquake lights are a huge part of it. There will
be sand boils, Maui, Maui shows up. Were we familiar
with Maui? Yes, because we're gonna We're gonna incorporate Hawaiian
mythology and Disney. I guess apparently. Actually, I think that's
(43:46):
not I mean not to tell you how to right
here season, but I do think you know, you're already
talking about all this at the top of the show.
You were talking about Pale and the Hawaiian mythology that
informed your kind of childhood growing up, and your understanding
of all the seismic stuff and the volcanoes, all the
stuff that I think that I was just talking about
with like the First Nations folks, and you know, the
predictions and the comments, and I'm so fascinated by all
(44:09):
of this lore and like maybe it's real. There's a
part of my brain that wants to believe that, because
a part of all of our brains that want to
believe there is magic in the world, and I think
that's why the idea of an island rising up. Yeah,
can it be scientifically explained? Sure, maybe, as your friend
from the geologic survey said, but what if there was
what if it was more like, you know, there's some
(44:30):
magic behind it. You know. I think that's maybe something
to to think about. Just putting in my two cents
for season two. And I mean, you know, we have
Lilihua and she's for a bunch of reasons. She's there,
partly because, you know, I have an agenda about Hawaiian sovereignty,
having grown up there, and it was really moved by
what's going on with the cop Aloha and the protests
(44:51):
up Monica. Yes, I was just in, Yeah, it's were you. Yeah,
I mean what's going on on Hawaii Island is extraordinary
and in some ways, I think an outgrowth of of
things that I got a chance to observe um and
listen to when I was growing up. But I think, look,
(45:12):
when I maybe part of why I believe that these
two worlds can be kind of straddled when it comes
to traditional mythology and science is that that's sort of
how I grew up. I mean, when I was in
fourth grade. We went to um Kwei Volcanoes National Park
and it was on a different island than the when
I grew up on. So they send you a list
to pack because you're going to be there for a
(45:32):
few days with your fourth grade class and you're going
to crater. And on the packing list is an airplane
bottle of gin to throw in the caldera as a
gift to pelling. I don't think they do that anymore.
This was eon and they probably don't want people littering,
But there was this conscious sense that you don't show
(45:54):
up to the volcano without an offering to the goddess
who it belongs to. There was a conscious understanding that
this is not your land. This is Hawaiian land. There
are people there, There are gods who inhabit, gods and
godnesses who inhabit this land, and it's on you to
learn the stories so that you could behave the way
you need to behave. You know, I never took a
(46:15):
hike without making an offering at some point, just of hey,
thanks for not wiping me out with a flash flood,
super grateful, thanks for not dropping a rock on my head.
And it was weird for me when I came to
the mainland and you know, I went to school in
New Hampshire and I was like, so whose land are
we on? And people were like what do you mean?
(46:35):
And sorry, I want to say white people were like
what do you do? But specific, you know, I mean,
there was there was no sense of those stories. And
so part of having lay an aftershock is like, what,
let's write those stories back in because there interesting, They're powerful,
They shape who we are growing up with an understanding
(46:58):
that one of the most powerful forces on the land
I was growing up in was a female deity. I
think probably there's a direct line between that and me
being a director. You know, stories are important. I think
they're and because I get to right aftershock, I get
to make them important and there will be a lot
more of that. Maui is an interesting idea actually, because
(47:21):
the story of Maui, you know, and his brothers is
the story of Maui pulling up the Hawaiian Islands from
the sea. Um And you know, maybe maybe I can
convince Dwayne to come and there can you imagine John hi? Um?
(47:42):
Can I know five dollars dollars not millions, Yeah, just dollars.
But you can do it from your closet. Uh are
you still there? Are you still there? You can also
communicate these stories in a way that other in a
(48:04):
way that they may not have been encountered before, which
I think is both unique and powerful. I also do
want to add for the skeptics in the crowd who
are saying something like, oh, well you you virtually would
never find an island rising. They all come from somewhere,
and people may be surprised to learn that is recently,
(48:24):
as August of this year. Just last month, new islands
were being discovered. There was one just found off the
coat like slightly above Greenland. It's the most northernmost island
in the world so far. Yes, way, hey, yes, So
this the world in which we exist outside of of
the realm of fiction or podcasting, has all of these
(48:47):
amazing things going on. And I love the idea of
the rich mythology being brought to bear here. Um. And
also also, yeah, it would be nicer if people on
the mainland had at least a little bit of something
in the direction of that philosophy that you have described.
You know, I'm gonna be thinking about that off air
(49:11):
for a while. And the Great Atlanta falcon first came.
So I don't think we can. I don't think we
can do it. The wind Eagle, you could, you could
get there, you could get Okay, you could get there.
Is that a cherokeeth I can't remember if it's Cherokee?
The Cherokee Country is close enough to Atlanta that you
might be able to get away with it, which howson,
(49:33):
Oh yeah, man, more about that than I do. The
Atlanta Falcons. I'm embarrassed to say a water pole is
Atlanta hockey team once upon a time in the Atlanta Thrashers.
(49:55):
We're holding out hope. Our petition has not been answered,
but of course you've got to shoot to your shot.
And at this point we do want to note, as
we said in the beginning, that currently scientists cannot successfully
predict the day and time of an earthquake. Instead, what
they can do is they can make models based on
(50:16):
past events, and they can explore things like seismic zones
and fault lines and predict areas where um, you know,
just like aftershot, they can predict areas where earthquakes are
likely to occur. And this is something that you know,
can can alarm people. Sometimes there are a lot of
factors that play. You know, Sarah, you mentioned earlier, we
(50:39):
understand that when the plates shift right, that's when the
that's when it can be earthquake time. But again, for
for this story, and I believe for many people who
have survived events like this in real life, the thing
that stays with them are those human moments. And that's
what I would posit. That's what all amazing stories are
(51:02):
ultimately about, when you get down to the interactions, the triumphs,
and the travails of the characters. So now that we
know a little bit about season two, which again no
spoilers yet, we we have to ask Sarah, because the
audience is going to ask us, where can our listeners
go to learn more about your work? And where can
(51:26):
they go to learn more about you? To learn more
about my work? Makes it sound like I haven't you
You haven't really done much, right, Sarah, You haven't. Where
can they go? I mean, I don't know. You can
follow me on Instagram, but um, it's a good follow
(51:46):
highly recommendo. Hey thanks, Um you could do that, or
you could. I think most of my some of my
stuff on Netflix, some of it someplace else. I don't know.
Things are always hopping around all of the different stream
It's like basically like cable all over again, but like
way more confusing. At least then it was all on
(52:06):
one you know, on demand menu. Um hey, let me
hype man you real quick. I'm just gonna say. You
can also listen and subscribe to Aftershock on the I
Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
Do that's right there, Yeah, I got your back. Nice
you guys. We didn't even talk about like the the
(52:28):
nuclear threat of earthquakes in the Midwest. That's a good
way to well talking about the future of things. I mean,
that's sort of a good place to leave folks, I think.
But that's fault. It is. The fault we talked about
is still a thing, the New Madrid fault, specifically because
FEMA and the United States government, the Pentagon they back
(52:49):
ten years ago, I think ten years ago, they had
one of the largest UH test runs essentially of of
a huge earthquake I think eight or nine on the
Richter scale earthquake UM and they had thousands of emergency
responders modeling what what would happen, right if if just
(53:13):
all of the buildings collapsed along this area and the
worst part is that there are so many nuclear facilities
out there that if one of them was affected to
the extent that the Fukushima reactor was affected, we could essentially,
I mean, just think about the radioactive fallout not only
(53:33):
along the land in terms of a possible explosion, but
also aquifers that are deep underground getting that radioactive wastewater
in them. Uh. Yes, it doesn't matter which way it's going.
If it's there's radioactive wastewater in there, No bueno um anyway,
it's FEMA and the Pentagon have been thinking about that
(53:54):
for a long time because they're aware it's not it's
not an if thing, it's a win thing. That's a
terrifying thought because I feel like we spend a lot
of time thinking about the military and war games and
the threat, whether it's China or Russia or some place
you know around um North Korea. The idea that the
(54:15):
entire country could melt down from the middle with some
like chain reaction of nuclear reactors, that's like, that's a
disaster too big for Michael Bay to make it a movie,
Like there's just no there's no wrapping your head up.
I disagree, though, I think Michael Bay could explode way
more things in his movies. He's just Cagy. Yes, Michael Bay,
(54:40):
famously subtle filmmaker known for his nuance. Yes, if you
want to read that study in full, folks, you can,
by the way, find it online. Everything match just described
is factual. That's on. You can see I believe through
the U. S. Geological Survey. Wired has a article called
(55:01):
Pentagon Quake Nightmare Fukushima on the Mississippi. So at the
very least, maybe it's something that will inspire you after
you listen to this episode to go find your loved ones.
You have to explain yourself because you love them. Just
give him a hug and has to have some positive
energy for them here. Uh, Sarah again, thank you so
(55:23):
very much for taking the time to be with us
here today. Uh. We can't wait for everybody to hear Aftershock,
and we're also going to ask what do you think fellas. Uh,
let's ask our fellow listeners here to give us maybe
their stories of earthquakes, their stories of surviving related disasters.
(55:44):
We would love to hear from you, and we try
to be easy to find online. That's right. We are
conspiracy stuff on Twitter on YouTube, and on what's the
other one, guys, facebo Facebook, that's the one. We also
have a Facebook group called Here's where it Gets Crazy.
Doesn't answer one simple questions, not a riddle, it's all
very straightforward. Just to say the name of of Ben
(56:04):
Matt or myself or just say something to let us
Russian bot and that you actually and you're in great
means to be had great conversations with great folks. Uh.
If you don't want to do any of that stuff,
you can also give us a telephone call. That's right, Yes,
a telephone. You use your mouth and one of these
and you can talk to us technology through the black mirror.
(56:30):
We exist. So our number is one eight three three
st d w y t K. That's just stuff they
don't want you to know all the first letters. You
can leave us a message for three minutes. That's what
you've got. Please give yourself an awesome, awesome nickname. Don't
be middling and it's no pressure. It could be related
to uh, it could be related to native mythology. In mythology, yeah,
(56:54):
whatever you want. It couldn't be. It could be blueberry, pomegranate.
We don't care like Michael Bay's nuclear melts. That's what
they call it. When he pitches a fit on set. Uh, Michael,
you can call us, yes, So let's take it more
(57:16):
than three minutes to say what he has to say.
That's right. Hey, And if and if you like Michael
Bay need more time, please instead send us a good
old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com.
(57:47):
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